The New York Draft Riots with (Evan Portman)

The New York Draft Riots with (Evan Portman)

In this episode of American Civil War & UK History Podcast, host Daz is joined by historian Evan Portman to explore one of the most violent and controversial events of the American Civil War—the New York Draft Riots of July 1863.

Sparked by opposition to the Union's first military draft, the riots quickly descended into several days of deadly violence, looting, and attacks on African Americans and government buildings. Daz and Evan examine the causes of the unrest, the social and political tensions that fuelled the uprising, its devastating consequences, and the lasting impact it had on New York City and the Civil War.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

To keep up to date with everything for American Civil War and UK history, head over to our website ACW and UKhistory.com. And remember, this podcast has a PowerPoint presentation that goes along with the show. So if you would like to see the PowerPoint presentation, then head over to our YouTube channel at American Civil War and UK History. Cheers. Hello everyone, I'm Daz and welcome to American Civil War and UK History Podcast. This presentation is available as a video on our YouTube channel or as a podcast from wherever you get your podcast from. And if you're watching on YouTube, remember to hit that subscribe button and give us a big thumbs up. And check out our website at www.acwandukhistory.com where you'll find podcasts, blog posts, and links to all of our social media pages. The link is also available in the podcast description. And joining me today, I'm really pleased to say, is historian and good friend of mine, Evan Portman. Welcome, Evan.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Daz. It's uh it's great to be here. I'm glad we've been talking about this for a while, right? It's it's uh it's good we can finally make this work, so I'm excited.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Absolutely, and of course, today's episode we're gonna be discussing the New York Draft Riots, which happened in July of 1863. But Evan, you might be used to watching a few of my episodes, so you know it's the first time on American Civil War in UK history, so I'm gonna ask you, how did you first become interested in history, more particular, the American Civil War?

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, yeah, we like to uh talk about Civil War and history origin stories at Emerging Civil War, too. So this is great. But um yeah, so I was seven years old. Uh I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. So my my parents and I were at a an outdoor show, and my dad's you know a hunter, an outdoorsman. So um he was looking at I don't know, you know, guns and stuff, and I noticed that there was a booth there from from Gettysburg, from the Gettysburg, you know, gift gift center gift store. And I just kind of happened to pick up a brochure with you know toys and and and flags and all these different souvenirs, and I just couldn't stop looking at it. Um to the point that that my mom said, I think we're gonna have to plan a trip to Gettysburg soon. And so, you know, I watched the movie with my dad, both parts and everything, and then we went to Gettysburg. That was in January. Um, we went to Gettysburg that year over Memorial Day, and that was that was it. You know, the rest was uh history, I guess you could say.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Excellent. That's really good, mate. Thank you. And of course, yeah, you're heavily involved in emerging civil war as well, aren't you? So do you want to just tell everyone just a little bit about that before we get into today's subject?

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Yeah, sure. Um, yeah, if you're not familiar, it's uh an online platform uh for you know emerging scholars, emerging historians. Uh we publish blog posts almost every single day of the year um on you know various different uh aspects or perspectives on the American Civil War. Uh there's a lot to check out, a lot to read. Um, of course, we also have social media, YouTube page, a podcast that Chris McCowski runs um every week with a new guest or a new topic. Um yeah, it's it's a great it's a great platform and a great great site to learn and and check things out. So be sure to go over there.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Uh absolutely thank you, mate. Okay, so we're gonna get into today's topic, and that is of course, like I said, the New York draft riots. Okay, Evan, would you like to start? Um so we're gonna go back a little bit. So before the war, in um, you know, New York's economy was very heavily and strongly tied to the South. Would you like to explain a little bit of that first, please?

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Yeah, so um, you know, if you're thinking, I don't know, big picture American history, right? That the decades uh before the the American Civil War, you know, in the 1820s, 30s, 40s, 50s, uh, there's this, you know, economic link to uh the South, you know, between New York City and the South. Um so of course, you know, history doesn't happen in a vacuum. There's there's connections, right? The North isn't entirely separate from the South. Um so the economy of New York City is is pretty strongly linked to the southern cotton market, much like you know, Great Britain and Liverpool uh were as Daz would know. Um so this kind of creates you know some interesting politics, right, in in the 1850s and the 1860s during the Civil War. You you have people in New York New York City that are almost Confederates, right? They're not they're not necessarily um you know from Virginia or or Louisiana or uh South Carolina, they're not necessarily uh you know fire eaters like that, and uh um but they're they're sympathetic towards the Confederacy and to and to Southern independence. Um so that creates kind of a problem that that Abraham Lincoln uh has to deal with in the four years that he's fighting a civil war, much like he has to deal with um disloyalty and and kind of uh civil unrest in places like Baltimore um in 1861 and throughout the the entire Civil War.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Thanks for that. Yeah. And of course, also the other thing with New York City is it it you know, it was a destination for immigrants uh in the 1840s. Uh most immigrants uh went to New York or uh of course from Ireland or Germany, Great Britain, wherever. So just tell us a little bit about that adding adding that to the mix of this this huge city uh during this period.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Yeah, so um, I mean, you know, a lot is is is made about uh Irish Americans right in New York City. It still has a really robust uh you know Irish Irish American identity, um, but also German Americans, right? They're they're coming over in the 1840s and 1850s. About 25% of New York City's population was German American or had ties to Germany, or what was kind of Germany at that point. Uh and this creates kind of an interesting dynamic, like you said, because a lot of these immigrants are coming over um for employment, and uh they are kind of enlisted into the ranks of the Democratic Party. There's you know a very strong Democratic machine in New York. If you've heard of Tammany Hall, right, Lincoln and Daniel Day Lewis refers to this in the movie Lincoln, the Tammany Hall Hucksters, kind of this like uh backroom dealing, right, in New York politics. Um many of these immigrants are enlisted um by the Democratic Party and are loyal to the Democratic Party. They're also persuaded kind of to go that way as a result of some know-nothing ties or know-nothing remnants in the Republican Party. So when the Republican Party emerges in the 1850s, um you have nativists or people that um kind of anti-immigrant, I guess you would say, are flocking to the to the know-nothing party, which we'll kind of get into um, I would think, a little bit later. Uh so a lot of these immigrants are sympathetic to the Democratic Party, right? Which which the Democratic Party is anti-war in the 1860s. Um in some cases it's anti-emancipation, right? So this also leads to some racial tensions between immigrants, uh, European immigrants, and African Americans who are also coming up from the South and competing for those jobs that that the immigrants um are also looking to get to.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Yeah, I was gonna I was gonna ask you about the uh African Americans in a minute, but I just want to understand what it's like and the living conditions in some of the you know more cramped areas of New York. What is it like, you know, like you said, people are fighting for jobs and there's you know, um, does that does that is that an underlying issue of a lot of the problems that we're gonna see later on?

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Yeah, yeah. I mean it it's not good, right? I mean, if you've seen, we were talking about uh the movie Gangs of New York, right, before this, and I think they show that movie takes place over what, 10 or 15 years or something like that, I think. Um and they kind of show that, if I remember correctly, uh in the beginning, like this kind of this like slums, you know, environment. Um uh the the city is is divided into different wards. Um so in some cases, these Irish American immigrants or these German American immigrants are living almost side by side with African Americans, you know, of course, in in uh poorer, poorer areas of of New York City. And so that even that proximity too um creates some tensions, right, between between the races or between between these different groups. Um and you know, you see that of course in in in the movie with these like rival gangs and and uh you know everything like that, which of course is is a little bit dramatized by Hollywood. But um, yeah, I mean there's this there's this like environment of of competition and and like uh you know disdain, distrust among amongst one another, and um it breaks out into violence uh you know in the in the 1850s, and and and of course here um you know what starts out as kind of a uh a protest against a draft quickly becomes more or less um a race riot.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Yeah, fantastic. Also, you know, um during the actual civil war itself, what's New York like as well? Is it affect I mean, because it's quite far away from the front lines, isn't it? So how how do you know how affected is New York City by its civil war that's going on?

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Yeah, I mean it's it's not as no, it's it is, but it isn't, right? It's not affected to the extent that um Richmond, of course, is, or even you know, places like Charleston, uh New Orleans, you know, even Washington, D.C., right? I mean, that Washington, D.C. is like this hub of armies moving. You know, there's there's uh a federal army or kind of a federal presence, um, military presence in Washington, D.C. almost the entire war. Uh New York City isn't like that, right? And it it's it's kind of this as it is today, you know, this this kind of vibrant cultural hub. I mean, even um during this period of July 1863, I'm I'm uh reading a lot about Chamberlain, um, Joshua Chamberlain from my talk at Emerging Civil War this summer. And Fannie Chamberlain is in New York City going on like a shopping trip during the New York City draft riot. So, I mean, you it's kind of this destination of people passing through, right? Um, you know, it's it's it's uh a big city by by 1860 standards by that point, um, but it is it isn't quite as affected by the war like you know, cities in the South. Um you don't see armies necessarily passing through if only you know the regiments that are coming from New York or coming from perhaps New England that are passing through to go to uh the front, you know, in places like Virginia or Tennessee or Mississippi. Um so you don't you don't have that tangible, you know, maybe feeling um of war that that other places in the North, you know, even Pennsylvania or Maryland um you know are by the by the time of uh July 1863.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Yeah, absolutely fantastic. Okay, so let's just quickly talk about the population of the African Americans in New York. And uh again, so as you can see, I mean in 1860 it's quite a big difference to compared to 1865. Um so again, so uh a lot of these communities are segregated, are they, and they have their own sort of areas. Is that how how it's uh you know is? Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Yeah, there, you know, I mean, you you kind of see the the vestiges of that today, um, even with ethnic neighborhoods, right? All of the Irish kind of congregate together. Um, you know, and even in Pittsburgh, there's a there's a neighborhood that's um called Deutschtown, right? It's it's old German town, basically. Um and and New York City was was the same way in in the 1860s and the 19th century. So you have you know the German section, you have um Irish American sections, and of course you have African American sections um that are you know kind of confined, but also uh you know butting up against sections that are that are um occupied by uh lower class, you know, poor immigrants. Um and in many cases, like I said, they're they're competing for similar jobs.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Absolutely. Okay, let's talk about the um the draft then itself. So um at this point in 1863, when they call for the enrollment and the draft, what kind of state is the Union Army in? And is it is a lot of it to do with the fact that guys that have already enlisted uh are their terms coming to an end? Or so what what prompts and pushes this draft?

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Yeah, so this is the first uh national draft in American history, although the Confederacy enacts a draft in 1862, so um there is somewhat of a kind of a precedence uh for that. Um but until this point, drafting or conscription had been left up to the states, um, which which kind of factors into some of the uh you know opposition, especially New York. Um, but it's July 1863, right, or the middle of 1863. Um the Union is is gaining ground in in different parts of of the country like Mississippi um or Tennessee, uh but it but the war's not going well, right, for for the Army of the Potomac in the east, especially in the area around Washington, D.C. and Virginia. Um and like you said, you know, there's there are our uh enlistment terms are are expiring. You see that kind of in the movie Gettysburg, right, with the with the second Maine, the the mutineers that think that they signed up for uh two-year terms, but actually signed up for for three, I believe. Um so this draft is kind of a way for the federal government to replenish the ranks, right? The the the people that are that are going home and may not re-enlist for um another three years or another two years or what have you. Um and it it is like I said, it's the first national kind of d draft or conscription in American history, so it it is significant um for that. Now we kind of you know don't don't think about that, right? Because it's become um more or less kind of a fixture, but at this point, um only states were really doing conscripting uh for their militias. So it is it is somewhat unprecedented for that reason.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Yeah, absolutely. Um and what about this uh governor, Horatio uh Seymour? So how how is he involved in this process in New York?

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Yeah, so um that's yeah, great question. Uh the the democratic political machine in New York kind of makes uh empty promises or promises that they can't keep that you know that that they're going to stop this draft from from even happening. So when the Lincoln administration um announces the draft in in March of 1863, uh it's it it's unpopular, right? Because um, well, yeah, I mean you can kind of imagine why it's what's why it's unpopular, because if if you know a lot of these people didn't enlist in 1861 or 1862, they're probably not gonna enlist in 1863, and they're not gonna want to go fight um even if the the federal government tells them that they have to. So uh as kind of a you know political tactic or a political move, um, the Democratic politicians in New York City um are going to kind of make these promises that they're gonna stop the draft from even coming to pass, that that you know, this is just uh you know more bark than bite from the from the Republican Party in the Lincoln administration. And Horatio Seymour actually promises that he will instead of enacting the draft in New York, uh, he will fulfill the draft's quota just with with volunteers, with people that you know want to enlist to go fight in the Union Army, uh rather than making, you know, forcing people um, perhaps at the point of a bayonet, uh to go to go fight, you know, more or less against their will. Doesn't happen, right? Uh that's that's unrealistic. Um so some of these empty promises, right, by the summer of of of 1863, you know, people in New York City that that oppose the war and oppose the draft, they're seeing that the Democratic the Democratic um you know politicians can't make good on their promises, basically. So they decide to basically take take matters into their own hands and try and stop the draft themselves.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

I'd love to know. So also I know you said obviously that you know some people didn't want to enlist in 61 and and you know, all through the war, really. But so how how much of a uh an influence does the press play on because you know, this is also an era of photographs, and so how much does that play into people going, oh my god, war's horrible, and you know, because obviously when when Lincoln calls up 75,000 volunteers, nobody really knows, you know, and there's this sort of like war, you know, hunger going around in there where everyone wants to go and join up. And but by that stage, surely there's a bit more of a um, you know, there's less people that want to actually commit to something like this because they've seen the horrors that are happening on the front lines.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. Um, yeah, I mean that's I feel like that's kind of tough to measure, right? Like how much of a role did the press play? I I would think that it's that it's not to be um I don't know, not to be scoffed at or ignored, right? Because this is the first time you know you're seeing photographs, especially after Antietam, right? That that kind of famous Matthew Brady gallery of the dead, the dead at Antietam. Um so I would, yeah, I mean, I would think that that's that's a role. There are also um maybe more, you know, kind of like questions of conscience. Uh you have you know some religious groups like um Catholics are kind of notoriously um more democratic, right? More lean more towards uh you know this this sentiment of anti-war. Um you also have groups that are pet that are like legitimately pacifists, like Mennonites and Dunkers who were opposed to the war, Quakers. Um so you so you kind of have that. Also, you have immigrants, right? Uh, you know, the kind of the famous um not stereotype necessarily, but maybe like trope of the Irish immigrant who you know comes over here only to have his job taken by an African American, and and kind of that fuels this resentment among some of the Irish population uh against the Lincoln administration, against the Republican Party, against the war, um kind of questioning why should I go fight for emancipation um when I can't even get a job myself or something like that. And we can kind of you know debate the merit of that uh or or you know the the maybe the accuracy accuracy of that, but um nonetheless, I mean people, you know, this anti-war sentiment or this this even anti-draft um anti-conscription sentiment comes from, you know, as you can imagine, a bunch of different places for people.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

And you're kind of painting the picture for how this melting pot is going to explode into how it does. It's just interesting. Um, so um now there is one exception. If you've got a lot of money, as you know, and uh you had $300, you could exempt yourself or you could send somebody in your stead, couldn't you? Yes. How much of that plays into some of the, you know, the poor guys that can't afford the $300, you know, and the guy that can, how does that play into that melting pot of you know that that kind of situation?

SPEAKER_00 21:02

A lot. Um, yeah, I mean, you know, and whatever the academy or academia, whatever you want to call it, you know, they kind of talk up like this this holy trinity, right? Race, class, gender, um, race and class are are big for for this. You know, there's there's the racial tensions, right, that that that are kind of fueling some of this class is is huge. And and the fact that uh a rich person could pay $300 to get a substitute and get out of having to go fight was a huge gripe, right? Among, especially among these lower class immigrants. Um it's it's I I don't think it can be understated uh that this that the substitute policy was widely unpopular. Um I believe uh I believe the Um oh gosh. Now his his name is uh escaping me, but he's the um leader of the uh George Templeton Strong, that's right. I was thinking I was conflating the two, but he you know, he's this like wealthy New York socialite, right? He's um quoted in in the Ken Burns uh series and everything. He pays for a substitute. So can it can you can kind of see the um the gap, right, or the separation between this upper echelon of of people um, you know, that that $300, I mean $300 isn't what it what it is today, or wasn't what it is today back then. Um, but you know, people that can just throw around $300 and get out of you know having to go. Um, but a lot of these these immigrants, especially in New York City, can't do that. I mean, it's not even a not even an option for them. So that that does play pretty heavily into some of their opposition to this.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Absolutely. And it kind of shows like that we obviously we don't really get it these days, but the class system back then was just so unfair, it's unbelievable. You know, it's just crazy. Um okay, so I know you did mention the Emancipation Proclamation, so we'll just bring that in quickly. So how much of a again, an another element that's gonna, you know, set this fire off is is the uh Emancipation Proclamation, of course, which was implemented on the 1st of January 1863. So how much of um you know a role does this play in that racial tensions? And I know you've sort of mentioned it a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Yeah, I mean it you know it it makes the war about emancipation, right? I mean, you know, I I guess there there are people that'll that will uh disagree about that. But um yeah, I mean it it makes it makes now that the war is is is about preserving the union and uh emancipating the slaves, um it makes it makes some of these people question, you know, why why should I go fight for um emancipation, right? They're just gonna, you know, African Americans are just gonna be freed uh and they're gonna come up and and compete for for jobs. And of course, there is there is a 19th century racial prejudice, or rate kind of underlying racial prejudice um to all of this. Um so that that certainly plays plays a factor in things too, in addition to you know some of these these class elements that you've talked about.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Absolutely. Okay, let's talk about um the riots. And so on July the 13th, 1863, New York City draft riots are gonna start. And uh so Evan, talk us through the the series of events, and of course the the people on the front line are the New York Police Department, aren't they? So how is that going to be handled by this police department? And how big is the police department at this point in the 1860s?

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Yeah, that's that's a good question. Um I don't know that I that I have uh specific numbers, um, but they are they are significantly underequipped to deal with anything like this. Um so the the New York State militia is sent away, right? So I guess I should say, you know, in this is in the backdrop of all this is Robert E. Lee's invasion of the North, right? So, you know, the the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia comes up into Pennsylvania in June of 1863. You have the uh climactic Battle of Gettysburg on July 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Um so a lot of the, you know, a lot of the New York State militia that was in New York City is sent uh you know west and and south to deal with that, to deal with that threat. Um so the New York City Police Department is is ill-equipped to deal with any kind of major unrest, right? Um and the way that they start doing the draft or or enacting the draft, uh they think that by going to some of the wards that are most anti-draft or most heavily um you know Irish or German immigrant, um, that they're going to kind of uh mitigate any kind of like unrest. Um but that that ends up backfiring because these people have like basically plotted to uh stop the draft from coming to pass um on July 13th. So then that that kind of ends up stoking some of this some of this resentment and and unrest. Um so the the police forces is kind of the first line of defense. They also call in the fire department, but some of the fire firemen are sympathetic towards the the draft rioters. Some of the the firemen themselves um oppose the draft, so that that ends up not working out very well, um, especially when when some of these people start setting fires. Uh, you know, if you don't have a fire department to put them out, that that makes things worse.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Um yeah, or they're the person setting the fire, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um yeah, it really becomes a mess here on on uh July 13th, the first day.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

And uh so obviously, um, so let's move to this next one because this sort of um um shows you where sort of like a lot of the riots took place. But do we do you know where it actually started and how I mean because uh this isn't the time of somebody sending a text message, is it? So like it's just strange that uh when you look at this map, you think that there's quite a lot of distance between the different areas.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

So yeah, how how did that you know go down and you know happen or what order?

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Yeah, so this I think this map, um I've never I that that map always comes, I use it on my slides, and I can never figure out like where where it came from or where it like its origin is. But it's a great map because it shows you kind of the breadth, right, or the scope of of these riots. And the I believe the first kind of sign of of unrest occurred in the 9th district. It's at the 9th district's um Provo Marshal's office when they when they're starting the uh the draft lottery on July 13th. Um and it's at 3rd Avenue and 47th Street. So I could not tell you exactly where that is on on the map of of uh New York City, but it's I believe it's up basically uptown. It's not down low in Manhattan, kind of where you see um, you know, closest to uh closest to you in this bird's eye view image. Um and over the course of the of the days they kind of spread, right? So there are uh instances in Manhattan and across across uh New York City, right? So um, but the the origin point is in the 9th district. And New York City's you know set up a little bit different differently than um than it was then now, but um that's that's where the first uh confrontation begins.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

So again, a lot of these uh riots take place on where where they're trying to draft the pe the actual people their self and they're obviously disgruntled, and so that's how the violence starts. Oh that's very interesting, yeah. Okay, so um let's let's bring back in uh John Kennedy because uh the police superintendent uh during the riots. Uh what happened to him during the riot?

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Yeah, so he's uh he's 60 years old, he's the police superintendent, and he quickly kind of arrives, right, to check on um the situation, but he is Irish American himself. Um so but he's not, you know, he's not uh sympathetic towards the uh the rioters or any kind of you know any any of this anti-draft, anti-uh Republican, anti-union uh stuff. Uh he's he's a unionist himself. So uh at around nine o'clock in the morning, he he orders all police stations um in Manhattan and Brooklyn to call on their their reserve, um, and he kind of sets off himself to to take take charge of the situation. And he's not in he's not in uniform uh uniform, but he but the rioters uh themselves recognize him um and they basically just like attack him. Uh they basically leave him unconscious, he's he's uh you know beat up, he's he's cut um with with knives, his eye is is injured, um and he's essentially just beaten to a pulp um and and left for dead on the streets by by some of these uh you know these people. And doctors that that attended to him later uh counted 70 knife wounds alone on his body, which is insane. Um you know, at 60 years old, he would never totally recover from this, but he does survive. Um so that you know creates kind of this gap in leadership too, right? It's uh you know, he's taken out of action, um, and so you know, it's just chaos is just kind of raining at this point in the timeline.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Yeah, it must have been horrendous. Oh dear. Um so um, okay, let's talk about the actual again, you know, those racial tensions. So African Americans uh are targeted uh in particular, aren't they? But of course, uh um everyone's fighting everyone though, aren't they? Is it sort of that kind of thing, or is it just, you know, look, I don't like my neighbor, so I'm gonna burn the house down. Is it like that kind of thing?

SPEAKER_00 31:39

Yeah, I mean, there is so first it what like I said, what starts out as a uh kind of a riot against the draft, against conscription. Um they're targeting federal property, you know, the Provo Marshal office, um quickly they begin to target African Americans, and and uh you know the city's black population becomes um kind of the subject of of the mob's ire. And you have mass destruction of property, mass destruction of of African American property. Um in particular, kind of the most famous example is the um colored orphanage uh in New York City. Um it's kind of looted, right? It's it's burned down. Uh these these rioters come in and and uh you know set it on fire, and and the children are actually saved. They're they're they're gotten out or they're uh escorted out, I should say, um, in time uh to save their lives. But uh that that is is probably the most famous example of these people, these you know, whatever, protesters, rioters, whatever you want to call them, um, you know, destroying African American property. They also target African Americans themselves. Um there's several lynchings that occur. Um and as I'll probably talk about at the end, we will never know kind of the the total human cost of these days of uh of the draft riots.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

And of course, uh another um you know aspect of it is of course the Republican newspapers and of course as pub politicians, so nobody's really safe, are they, at this point in time?

SPEAKER_00 33:27

No.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Yeah, wow. Okay, so um let's bring in so the New York's in a real dire situation at the moment, and uh so they're gonna have to get some help, aren't they? So the mayor of New York uh city, which um I can't say his first name. What's his first name?

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Uh let's see. Sorry, he's he's uh no, you're good. Um mayor opdike, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

I I forgot his first name.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Um, don't worry about his first name, Mayor Opdike. But of course, he's gonna have to go to the um the Secretary of War, uh Edwin Stanton, and he's gonna have to say, Come on, mate, I need some help here. Otherwise, you're gonna have a big problem on your hands. So, what's Edwin Stanton gonna do to to uh and of course I take it that they're in connection via um telegraph telegraph to uh or telegram to uh Washington DC at this point?

SPEAKER_00 34:19

Yeah, I would presume, yeah, that's that's probably the most likely form of communication. Um but yeah, so Mayor Mayor Opdike um you know communicates kind of this this need uh to to the war department, and then Stanton, who is you know notoriously kind of all business and no nonsense, sends in uh reinforcements in the form of federal troops from the Army of the Potomac, um some reserve troops, militia. Uh so this is essentially kind of a turning point, right, in um in the the saga of of the draft riots. Um and you you see kind of a shift. This in some cases this persuades or or dissuades, I should say, uh people from coming out in the days to follow, coming out to to you know, raise hell for for lack of a better term. Um but it also results in in a few confrontations between the riders and uh federal troops and and some of these um militiamen that are that are coming into the city.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Now I know you said obviously they come from Gettysburg, um or they come from down that area. So how do they get them there? Do they travel by rail? Because they get there fairly quickly, don't they?

SPEAKER_00 35:36

That's a good question. I think um I think it was the 27th Illinois, I want to say, is is is one of the regiments that comes directly from Gettysburg, and I believe they conducted a forced march um to New York, but I'm not sure if they um also used the railroad too. I I wouldn't be surprised. Um, but I'm I'm quite a distance, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 36:00

It's not like you know, is it?

SPEAKER_00 36:03

You know, no, not at all.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

And so and so um if they've been force marched up there after fighting that hellish battle at Gettysburg, they're probably in a bad mood, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Oh yeah, yeah. I I mean, I don't know. I would be, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Yeah, me too. Yeah. So so obviously a lot of these guys that come up are native New Yorkers, yeah. So how how how is that you know, how does that affect them when they're ordered to shoot on the mob people? This must be, you know, and of course, innocent people get caught up in the crossfires, don't they? So how is that for them?

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Yeah, so some are and some aren't. Um, I mean, some of the the New York militia that that's called it called back uh to do this obviously are um native. I don't know of any instances, I mean, I'm sure you could, you know, dive a little bit deeper than we are today and and kind of look into that, like, you know, what what was that like, or were there any instances of of you know kind of people talking about this that um you know New Yorkers kind of fighting New Yorkers? Uh but after after the draft riots, so after everything um ends, essentially, uh the war department and and the the leadership uh of the union specifically chooses non-New York regiments and non-New York uh units to enforce the draft so that there's no kind of you know uh divided loyalties, I guess. You know, kind of what happens with with the some of the firemen who are sympathetic, right, to um to the to the riders. So uh that is that is a very deliberate and specific choice um on behalf of of some of the leadership afterwards, uh because they don't want any kind of you know divided loyalties between the the federal troops that are enacting the draft and you know, of course, any potential people that are that are going to uh you know protest once again. But yeah, I'm not I'm not entirely sure if there were any instances of that during the the draft riots themselves.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Yeah, absolutely. And so obviously after the riots have all sort of settled down, like you said, they still enact the draft itself. And so they base troops in so how long are they there for after this, obviously, because you know, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Yeah, it's a good question. I'm not I'm not entirely sure how long um it takes. Uh it's not you know necessarily quick. Um but of course, I mean the draft lasts as long as as the war does, essentially. Um but uh but there is there is a a federal presence after um after all this goes down, and there's kind of this you know period right where uh there's like a cooling down and and um you know politicians are kind of negotiating and then they're kind of determining what might be the best way to to do this after um you know all this all of this happens in July of 1863. Um and finally I think August, late August is when the draft essentially resumes the draft lottery, and it's it's guarded by um either federal troops or or militiamen, depending on where it where it's occurring. Um and you don't really see uh you know opposition in the scale that that you have here um for the rest of the war.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Yeah. And again, you can't really put a number a number on how many people died during this, can you? But is that like a rough estimate of the yeah?

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Yeah, there are um there are so are you talking about total or specifically African Americans?

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Well, just in total, really, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

Yeah, well, so first of all, there were um in in financial losses, there were nearly a million, million dollars lost in in estimation of property, property damages and property destroys, yeah. Um, which is insane. Um as far as people killed or or lives lost, um there are estimates from like a hundred to fifteen hundred. So I mean there's a pretty pretty wide gap. Um of course, you know, the there there were uh incentives, I guess, for for many families not to report a death, um, you know, for fear of reprisals, um or or you know, something of of that like. Um for African Americans, uh, you know, we'll we'll of course also kind of never really know how many um were killed or or how many were truly effective, but we do see the African American population of New York City significantly drop um in the in the years after after this.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Yeah. And also obviously, after looking at this picture, um one of these pictures, I'm thinking, so did some of the um rioters actually arm their self with rifles and and actually fight back a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 41:11

Yeah, so I think I think the the picture on the right you're you're referring to, right? Um I think that that is a depiction of this like final confrontation between the federal federal troops and and the rioters. Um it's a joint force between federal troops, militia, and and police officers. Um and that's what you kind of see, I think, at the end, right? It's the climax of of the movie Gangs of New York, when you see like you know, gunboats fire firing in on the on the rioters and and stuff like that. Um and I think that that is one instance where some of the some of the riders were armed. Um most I think mostly it's gonna be um you know they're they're gonna arm themselves with what with whatever they can't. So, you know, clubs and and you know tools, crowbars, um you know, kind of whatever they can find. Um but uh in a few instances I believe that they do have have firearms weapons.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

Absolutely. Well, thanks for adding that. Yeah. Okay, so what about what about the again? Obviously, we know the response from Washington, they've sent troops up there, but what what's sort of the uh you know, afterwards, does this affect the way that they think about how they implement stuff, or do they not really care?

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Yeah, no, definitely. Um I mean it creates it creates kind of a significant problem uh for the Lincoln administration because you have you know this instance of unrest in the heart of of Union territory. Um and you know, like I said, uh New York City kind of also has or always has these um you know kind of tenuous ties to to the war effort and to the Union um and and and some of these ties to the Confederacy. I mean you see that um in uh the the mini-series on Apple TV Manhunt, right, about John Wilkes Booth and you know that that kind of plays fast and loose with with some conspiracy theories, but I think it effectively shows that New York City is kind of like this this hub, right, or this haven for um Confederate sympathies. And you know I mean you have Confederate agents there uh that try to burn out burn down a hotel later on in the war. Um so I think it, if nothing else, it kind of turns Lincoln, Lincoln's head to to some of this, right? If he um perhaps if he had you know overlooked uh some of it before. Um but it definitely it definitely causes the federal government to proceed perhaps more cautiously um uh when enacting some of the draft. And nothing like this happens again. Uh but I think it it it makes them take things a little bit more seriously. Um when they when they maybe hadn't before some of this.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Yeah. And so that's what I was going to ask. I mean, you know, obviously the um you know how does it expose divisions within northern society, you know, and of course, you know so the civil unrest doesn't really spread to any other major US cities. Because again, you know, New York's not the only place where the draft is enacted. It's enacted in the whole of the north, isn't it? So is there any other major cities where they have some kind of unrest or is it just New York?

SPEAKER_00 44:30

There are. Buffalo, New York actually has um some opposition to the draft before the famous New York City draft riots. And there are there are pockets of of resistance in other places, but nothing nothing quite on the scale of New York City in July. Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

Okay, thank you mate. Yeah. And so now is anybody held accountable for starting the riots?

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Yeah um that's that's a great question. So yes and no I mean it's it it becomes very difficult to hold people accountable for for some of this. I mean you can imagine how difficult it is uh to to you know try and kind of um track down uh people that that participated in any of this like how do you prove you know how do you prove someone was in this mob of people that attacked the the Provo you know martial office or the or the colored orphanage for example um there are some you know kind of like legal actions that are taken but there's no kind of you know like gr uh I don't know grand jury indictment or anything kind of like that. Some of the damages are are paid but um there's really no like courtroom drama right that that results after this.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

Okay thanks mate and um you know how long does it take the city to get back to normal life because you know this is you know it's quite devastating as you said a million dollars worth of property damaging I mean million dollars in 1860s a lot of money um so how long does it take you know life to get back to some kind of normality after this horrendous yeah I mean months right and and and years um even for the African American population.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

I mean the the uh residents of of the orphanage never return to um never return to to the orphanage they they kind of relocate um this is the point where many African American many African Americans uh go to Harlem too and it becomes you know later on in the 19th and 20th century becomes this kind of vibrant African American community um you know whereas it it kind of hadn't before this um so you have that um but you also have kind of these lingering ethnic tensions as a result of this right and and um I I can't kind of miss out uh from from reading a quote from George Templeton strong and he and he's like I said one of these people that um takes advantage of of the uh substitute policy pays $300 when he's drafted and he's also notoriously he's a Republican right he's loyal to um to Lincoln and he's anti-slavery but he is intensely nativist and intensely prejudiced towards um immigrants and particularly Irish immigrants and he says after all this this happens he writes no wonder St. Patrick drove all the venomous vermin out of Ireland its biped mammalia supply that island its full average share of creatures that crawl and eat dirt and poison in every community they infest. So I mean that's that's pretty vitriolic right uh towards towards Irishmen. And so you have you know some of these these Irish uh these tensions you know towards the Irish and you have tensions within the Irish American community. Many of these uh perpetrators were Irish and and then you have you know like people in the Union army that are that are unionist and and uh you know loyal to the Union and and like the Irish brigade or you know they're saying uh you know we we should go up you know and and like put this put this down because um these aren't you know these aren't our fellow Irishmen they're they're not uh they're not loyal to the Union so we don't you know associate with them essentially so there there's really like unique or or kind of interesting dynamics that that kind of uh play out even after some of this.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

Oh yeah absolutely and it's just a fascinating topic and again I'd like to thank you Evan for giving up your uh day to come and talk about the uh New York draft rights I really appreciate that my friend um yeah fantastic yeah thank you thanks for having me it was it was fun um yeah it's an interesting topic all that is left to say at this point my friend is cheers cheers