Thomas Vokins: From Britain to the American Civil War | London Branch Member with Gina Denham

Thomas Vokins: From Britain to the American Civil War | London Branch Member with Gina Denham 

In this episode of American Civil War and UK History podcast, Daz is joined by Gina Denham, co-founder of the Monuments for UK Veterans of the American Civil War Association, to explore the fascinating life of Thomas Vokins.

Thomas Vokins was a British-born participant in the American Civil War who later returned to Britain and became a member of the London Branch of the U.S. Civil War Veterans.

Gina shares the story of Vokins’ life, his connection to the American Civil War, and his later involvement with the London Branch, helping to shed light on the often-overlooked history of British connections to the American Civil War.


Please help us achieve our ultimate goal of erecting a monument for all British American Civil War veterans. Additionally, we are committed to continuing the work of identifying and honouring more American Civil War veterans. You can donate via our JustGiving page.

just giving page 
https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/themonumentalproject?utm_term=n9NGvaxgn

Keep updated on all of our activities here
https://linktr.ee/TheMonumentalProject

ACW & UK History's Website.
https://www.acwandukhistory.com/

ACW & UK History's Pages.
https://linktr.ee/ACWandUKHISTORY

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_00 0:00

To keep up to date with everything of American Civil War and UK history, head over to our website ACW and UKhistory.com. And remember, this podcast has a PowerPoint presentation that goes along with the show. So if you would like to see the PowerPoint presentation, then head over to our YouTube channel at American Civil War and UK History. Cheers. Hello everyone, I'm Daz and welcome to American Civil War and UK History Podcast. This presentation is available as a video on our YouTube channel or as a podcast from wherever you get your podcasts from. And if you're watching on YouTube, remember to hit that subscribe button and give us a big thumbs up. And to keep up to date with everything American Civil War and UK history, head over to our website at www.acwandukhistory.com where you'll find podcasts, blog posts, and links to all of our social media pages. And it is also available, ladies and gentlemen, in the podcast description. And joining me today is co-founder of Monuments for UK veterans of the American Civil War Association, Gina Denham. Welcome, Gina. Hi Daz. And of course, we have something very, very important coming up in October, on October the 17th, to be precise. And we'll we'll get a bit, you know, give a bit more detail at the end of the episode. But um the person that we're going to dedicate is a man named Joseph. Sorry, Thomas Joseph Fokins. And uh the dedication is going to be in gospel, but again, we'll talk about that later. But what we're going to do is shed some light on his life and um his involvement of uh later on in the London branch and and everything in between sort of thing. So okay, Gina, so who was Thomas Joseph Fokins and what was his early life like in London?

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Well, um he I mean he were he was obviously a Londoner by birth, as you said. He was born in um near Seven Dials, uh near Covent Garden. Um curiously, in the sort of um just after the American War of uh independence, a lot of uh black Americans who served King George used to frequent uh Seven Dials when they were destitute because King George had said to them, you know, we'll look after you if the the raw when the war doesn't go in our favour. So yeah, so 1845 or 1844. Now there's some discrepancies on Thomas's uh date of birth. He was baptized in 1845, uh suggesting he was born earlier that year, according to the baptism record, but he's got a birth certificate uh indicating an earlier year. Now, things didn't go very well for uh Thomas um by the year 1851. He was living uh in Soho uh with some relatives and his widowed mother. Um, and there's uh a lot of uh workhouse admissions around the period 1862 for a Thomas Folkins. Now we don't know if it's our Thomas, but uh you're starting to get some strong evidence why he decided perhaps to go to uh the United States.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Okay, so again, um, you know, uh the problem is with these guys is there isn't a lot of information out there at that point because again, they're not really, you know, people um in normal life don't have much of a record, do they? Not really in this early period. Which is that frustrating for you when it comes to doing the cold case investigations?

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Well, yes and no, I've realized if I say for example wanted to find out something that you were doing at the time, then I might look to your family members or other aspects. So if you were working somewhere, I might find out what your place of work was doing. And only in the last couple of weeks I've absolutely come up Trumps on two London branch veterans, uh guy called Thomas Robert Hanning, um, who was described in a letter by the London Branch honourable secretary in 1926 as being virtually blind. And I remember um recently getting a book which is going to be sorry, a uh photograph, which um I've never seen before, and it the veteran's got like one eye, like his left eye looks I think it you know uh the he's either blind. And I kind of joined the dots, and I've realized that that veteran is this guy called uh Thomas Robert Hanning, who'd seen so much action, he'd been in the Navy, etc. So it can be frustrating with these Colt case investigations, but with Thomas, he did write letters about his time in the Civil War, and even his obituary provided more uh flesh on the bones about his life. I didn't realise, for example, he served in the um British military briefly when he came back. Um so that's still more work to do there. So Thomas did give us a few gifts. Um he gave us um by virtue of handing in these really incredibly rare artifacts, his original London branch medal, for example. I guess because he lived down in Gospel rather than the centre of London. You've got Luggate Hill there, Luggate Hill and uh St. Paul's Cathedral in the background. You know, the the lots of London didn't survive the blitz and World War II. And I'll posit the fact that Thomas was down in Gospel, his medals from the Civil War, and of course the London were able to survive, so we're incredibly lucky to get his rare artifacts. Um still trying to get the letters that he wrote. Um, so that's another piece of work, but yeah, you know, um you sometimes have to look at all the evidence that really underpins your your um beliefs and suspicions. I think I told Georgia just before we came on air, for example, I'd always felt that Henry McGuinness, who you and I were, you know, honoured last year, had to be a London branch veteran, well veteran, and only last week. Um I reached out to uh a guy in America called Everett Bowles, and Everett kindly shared me some uh material that he had in uh concerning the London branch, and it confirmed that Henry McGuinness was indeed a London branch member. Sam Hoff that we honoured last year was 124, and Henry was member 125, another Londoner as well by birth. So yeah, I I I don't get frustrated. I think it's all part you do your thing, Daz, don't you? And you do your research and I do mine, and we seem to complement each other, so yeah, it comes with the territory, I guess. I mean, you if you think about it, we're talking more than a hundred and eight years to start your cult case, haven't you? So yeah, not too frustrating.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

And so, okay, so he is gonna leave Britain and go and travel to America. Now, is what what's his reason for for leaving London uh and going across the pond?

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Not really, I mean, he there is no reason. I suspect the reason was he is he was in what the London branch often men often called straightened circumstances. I cannot find a record of him arriving in Castle Guard um Castle Garden, which is at the southern tip of uh Manhattan Island. I can't find any record, and obviously with the surname Vulkins, you know, they're there it's a very unusual surname, so I can't find any uh records of that, but he uh claimed that he sailed from London um and the docks in London on a vessel called the Hudson, and he uh made his way to North America in June 1863. And what I quite like about it, going back to what you said just now, that's about you know the the lack of information certain parts of a veteran's life, in this part of Thomas's sort of campfire tale, he was very uh descriptive. He he remembered enormous icebergs, uh he was singing, the dancing and fiddle playing, uh the you know, these people uh who were on steerage within the the vessel, like the really cheap, the cheap seats of sailing, should we call and and he literally arrived in the United States with just a couple of shillings in his pocket and he didn't know anybody there, so that that's how he kind of went to America. So I think like the other London branch veterans, you know, he's a young guy, he's got he don't want to live in the workhouse um or spend time there, and he's you know he's he's only got his mum, so I think he decided to seek his fortune. And as you may ask in a minute, we do know that he had some uh relatives living in North America by that time.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Okay, so that might have been some of the drive, but also this is 1863, so we're right in the slap bang in the middle of the American Civil War at that point, and it is heavily publicised in England of the American Civil War. Is it all the newspapers, as you know, when you do your cold case? So is that part of one of the reasons why he thinks maybe let me go. Oh, I'd like to go and join in, you know. I might get some money from it, like you said. Is that part of the law to him, or or is it just the family connection?

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Um, well, we it number one is definitely let's have a look at the reasons. So he's definitely got family in Philadelphia. Um, an uncle um related to his mum, and uh he's obviously lost his father, so he's finding himself, you know, on the face of it, you know, the right age, the right time, the right place in the workhouses. And I've certainly got my own family members who found herself in the workhouse, and that was a significant reason why they decided to enlist in the British Army, you know, and get three square meals a day. So I think they're the they're the you know, uh circumstantial evidence around uh Thomas, but I don't think we'll ever fully know why he went, but in the same way as many other London Raj men, he he you know, I suspect it was just he sought adventure and perhaps a better life in North America. I mean they were actively recruiting as well, you know, um at that time, the Union Army and Navy, of course.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Yeah, and of course, I think obviously, again, if he did turn up in New York, we know for a fact that a lot of immigrants were literally just drafted straight from the ships. So they'd come off and there'd probably be God knows how many people canvassing to join the war, and and that law of money, I suppose, would have and so he does join the United States Navy, doesn't he? And I'm gonna and and again, you know, so I have one of the ships that he served on here, and and that is the Princeton, but he does serve on these vessels, doesn't he? And so does he go into detail about his time serving on these vessels?

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Um well, yeah, he does, and that's part of the sort of campfire tale of Thomas's account. Now he uh claimed he the when he was on the Sonoma, um he claimed that he'd been at Fort Fisher, uh Sumter, yeah, a lot of the major actions that the Sonoma was involved in. Now, Thomas didn't uh initially join and sort of sort of till I think um I think it was early um uh 1864. Um I can't remember the exact date where he enlisted, but uh the Sonoma had seen a lot of his action. Now just prior to Thomas uh uh Vokins joining the Navy, he he did a little bit of railway uh work, um but he only really lasted a midnight uh uh you know a couple of weeks, and then he I don't know how he did it, but he made his way to Philadelphia and found his uncle in Philadelphia, and from them I think he gave him a bit of money, and then um uh Thomas made his way to uh uh the North. He initially went on the North Carolina, another receiving ship, and then obviously at some point goes on the Princeton, uh, which is also a receiving ship as well.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Okay, cool. And uh so um how reliable are his uh later memories of his wartime experiences? Because I think we've had a conversation before about yeah, what again you weren't too sure about, and again, I think there's other London branch members as well. We're not taking anything away from them, but obviously, you know, saying they're involved in this, that, and the other when some of the timelines don't sort of match up, do they?

SPEAKER_01 12:45

No. So, for example, John Davis served on a gunboat called the William Bacon, and Edward Monroe, who claimed to be the oldest London Brach member, he also served on the William Bacon. So they both concluded they must have served on a vessel at different times. Well, that weren't true, they they didn't. Um we know that Sam Hoff said that he served, uh he was at Gettysburg. Uh, there's plenty of London Brach veterans who you know claimed these things but were unable to verify them. I think Ben McIntyre, who's the an author and he's written about the um Iranian embassy siege, you saw he was doing an interview with Dermot O'Leary um a couple of um years ago on uh uh radio at BBC Radio 2, and it was really interesting because I was going to a Soskan meeting and I was listening to what he said, and he said that you know people start believing that memory is truth, and eventually, you know, it's it's a case of misremembering. You know, you might um and I think that's what's happened with Thomas uh because he's remembered certain events and attributed them to the wrong timeline, if that makes sense. So he was certainly certainly involved in blockading duty, you know, verifiable. Um he was injured while he was on the Samona uh Sonoma um and he was in a place called the Stono River. Uh they were down at Charleston, I believe. So he saw a lot of action because they were, you know, um assaulting the batteries within the the rivers down there, um, like the Stono River. So I'm kind of I know his service is irrefutable based on his pension application. The gaps that are missing are well, if you think about it, he's already said he's gone to the United States in June 1863. Now you're probably more au fay with some of the other actions during the Civil War, but uh if he's gone to North America in June 1863, then it's quite highly probable that he couldn't have been at those actions that he claimed to have been at. Does that sort of make sense?

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Yeah. Although Fort Fisher's sort of 1864, I think, and then there is so there might be some truth behind that, and also there are more actions against Sumter later on in the war as well. So um, even though, as we know, the uh you know, the initial assault on Fort Sumter, which starts in war in 61, um, there are still actions against that fort in Charleston Harbour later on. So, I mean, you know, the fact that he's in the navy, I mean, he could have been telling the truth of being at those places, or maybe he just went past those places. You don't know, do you? I mean, these ships get around a bit, don't they? You know. Um, but okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

And also, say I was gonna just say um Henry McGuinness, who was Sam Hoff's best buddy up in Derby, had served at Fredericksburg, and I think he'd served at Gettysburg. So I wonder if he's been chatting to Sam Hoff, and Sam Hoff's like, maybe, maybe I'll say I'll serve there. You don't know. I mean, um you know, uh one of the things that Thomas can accurately claim is that he was involved in the capture of a blockade runner, a vessel called uh the Ida, and it tried to go under radar at night time, and uh the Sonoma was able to uh stop it, board it. I think they captured 54 bowels of cotton and also uh a former uh Union uh mariner, a midshipman, um as I recall. So you mentioned the Princeton as well. He um transferred to the Princeton, um which was at Philadelphia on the 30th of September 1864. Now his campfire tale is that he um was only um uh if you like a civilian for about a week, but the enlistment on the Ticorondoga.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Oh my goodness, I've been watching, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Yeah, um which I do have a picture of, by the way. Oh lovely. Yeah. So he the the enlistment on that vessel is quite curious because again, you start looking, you have to look at his account and then look at the documents to verify it. So he said he was at Fort Fisher where you've got the first action, you know, in late um in December 1864, the unsuccessful one, and then you've got the second one in the January, which as it turned out, a lot of the the old London branch veterans had attended. So, for example, Maurice Wag, the Medal of Honor Medal of Honour recipient, he'd been there and a few others. Um so initially I thought, oh, he had been at Fort Fisher, but the the enlistments don't tally up. So unless he it's possible this is the other thing as well, Dad. As soon as you get a veteran who enlists in a different name, it's a bit of a red flag because they invariably have done something to hide their tracks. Some of them said I was because my parents didn't approve, but I've tended to think it's either something was going on in the background, so they thought, hmm, I'm just gonna join in a different because he enlists initially in the name of Thomas Fokins, but when he goes on the Ticonderoga, he uses the name James Parker. So if you think about it, what's gone on?

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah, so what's gone in beyond opposite names or anything, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So yeah, so he he and you mentioned the Princeton, you showed us that picture earlier. Well, that's where he went, he went on board the Princeton, which was the receiving ship on the 30th of September 1864. Just gonna take a gulp of our granny bee's cup here, you remember that in Appomattox.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

And uh so apparently from from what from your research, it seems like he enlisted again after the Civil War. Yeah. So so what does he does he stay in the Navy? What what's that all about?

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Yeah, so he definitely stays in the Navy, he goes on that vessel.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Um he goes on that vessel after the civil war.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Yeah, so he goes on that vessel. Um curiously, let's see if I can remember the dates, because he gave an account where he um he and his navy buddies realized that they could get better, better uh wages if they served in the Union Army. Now, even if there was towards you know the war had been over. And so he um he and his friend create this plan where they're gonna um go into civilian clothing and um and then um and then basically do a bunk from the navy. Now there's two enlistment uh records for Thomas um in the latter part of 1865, literally within four or five days of them. And one of them he enlists for four years, the first one, and then the second one about four days later enlists for three years, and I I think that's when he tried to do a bunk for the Navy. Um and he gave an account of it in these letters that have been preserved. Um, he didn't exactly say when when that happened, but I'm looking at those vet though, what I've never seen a veteran you know enlist and then three days later enlist again. Everything you know was exactly the same, but for the first term it was four years, and then a week later he's decided three years. So maybe I think he what happened, he got he tried to you know um he created this plan that he was gonna go and join the the Union Army and he packed all his clothes away in a trunk, and the thing that apparently led to his capture that somebody found a pair of navy issue socks in this trunk, and then the game was up, and he ended up obviously being taken back um by the navy, and I think that's when it happened. I think literally he's he signed up for four years, decided that wasn't for him, um, got captured um as a virtue of them finding these navy issue socks, and then they've said he maybe he's argued the case and they said, Alright, you can sign up for three years, which he did. And he did, yeah, these both terms of service he served honourably, and he definitely saw action.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Yeah, it's crazy, these crazy stories. I mean, look, you know, money's the driver, isn't it? The people were poor at the time. Absolutely. If they see if they see an opportunity, they're gonna do it. And there's many stories of uh of a lot of men going from town to town and re-signing up for the army just to get the pain packet, you know. So it did happen.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Um, okay, so we I was gonna say you I mean, if you think about George Denham, yeah, he joined as uh joined as a substitute for uh and got $200. Um, and by the time he and the 111th Have made them at their way down to for the Chattanooga campaign, half the people who joined with him had as substitutes had deserted. And I always think it's a mark of these, certainly these London branch veterans' moral compass, that all of them, especially the British born veterans, still you know, they got their bounty or whatever, but they you know I think that's why I like the phrase not for ourselves but for our country, um, because they served honourably, as Thomas did.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Yeah. Okay, so he is going to come back to Britain. So what what point does he say to himself, do you know what, I've had enough of this now, I want to go home. Um, do you know that?

SPEAKER_01 22:42

Um well, yeah, he so he he um he gets he he transfers to a vessel, the USS Franklin, and was um honourably discharged in November 1868. Now, his service on that vessel, I suppose you know the Civil War's finished, so it was just in a bit it sailed into his international waters. If I remember correctly, the vessel went was um out in the Mediterranean. Uh that still needs to be confirmed. But he comes back to uh London and he marries his cousin called Eliza Spackman, and it was the the Spackman family, as I say, uh he's got these other relatives in uh North America in Philadelphia by the same surname. So he's always kept a close relationship for Spackman's, and he marries his cousin um called Eliza, and he uh sets himself up as a tailor.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Okay, so very similar story, sorry, to other guys, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Yeah, I mean initially settles in London, don't forget that's his birthplace, um, but by certainly the sort of the late 1890s, he's moved down to gospel in Hampshire. And as I say, the only the the one thing that he um you know he acquired his memories, he'd got a tattoo of a a ship, uh sorry, a tattoo of a flag on his left forearm, and he'd had that, he must have got that when he went on the Sonoma, because by the time he enlisted in on the Tycherondoga, he had the um recruiting uh depot uh uh had noted that that tattoo was on his arm. So he was a really patriotic man. Um, but as I say, if he initially settled in London, he's married Eliza, and um, but eventually they they settled in Gospel, Hampshire. No obvious reason why, but that's that's where he he went.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Well, I suppose London is a very overcrowded, dirty place, and and Gospel was not like that. So I think a lot a lot of people would have liked to have got out of that, probably would have been a hellhole at the time, I could imagine. Um yeah, so he what role does he play in the London branch of US Civil War veterans? Sorry. So John Davies puts out that call and he's gonna come back to London. He's gonna be one of the first. Well, even though he's number 90, he's gonna be one of the first members, isn't he?

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Yeah, so if you um so what we can say about I'm so blessed. Now you've obviously got that picture um that we've been using throughout the uh podcast of um uh Thomas that was um kind of um you know provided by his one of his uh descendants. Um I've managed to find a very uh rough picture of him um in December 1912, um, when um the uh American ambassador um uh oh goodness I can't remember his name now. This escapes me. Uh uh uh oh um yeah uh surname of Reed. I remember oh Whitelaw Reed, that's him, my apologies. So uh Whitelaw Reed um was re really revered by the the veterans in London. Apparently he was quite a nice person, and um he had died suddenly, and there was a memorial service uh announced for him at Westminster Abbey. Um can't remember the exact date in uh December. So John Davis rallied as many London Brach veterans as he could, and this is the first occasion where they've got their like um gone home uh you know, the flag that you held at Chalk History Festival, the one that says gone home, uh down the flagstaff, um, and in loving memories. There's some great accounts of the London Branch veterans who are at Westminster Abbey, and they go to the station where uh Whitelaw's body in the coffin is conveyed down to uh Portsmouth, and it's going to be conveyed back to the United States on HMS Natal. Now, um, amongst those group of veterans you see there, which is um uh obviously John Davis um on the left, there's a guy behind just over his shoulder. You've got all the movers and shakers of the London branch, you've got Maurice Wagg, the Medal of Honour recipient, Richard Townley Booth, who's slap bang in the middle, he became the London branch president in 1913. Um, the guy with the top hat next to um John Davis, we think is uh Sir Charles Windham, who was originally invited to join the London branch. If you look at a close-up of that, he is wearing an officer's version of the um Grand Arm of the Republic medal. Now, if you cast your eyes far left, you've got um part of his head's um cut cut off. But it's possible that that is Thomas Vulkins. He looks very much alike him, and of course, this photograph was um taken on one day, and then Thomas Vulkins was down in gospel the next day. So he was the lone veteran there who's mentioned in newspapers, and he wore his medals. And I say I found one picture of him recently. Um it's not very good because it's a newspaper picture, but it's a picture of him down um down in uh gospel, and he apparently followed the um uh the body of White Law as it was conveyed onto HMS Natal. So that's a bit of a doubt, and you mentioned nine the 90th uh member uh roll number. We know that literally John Davis wrote to 80 veterans in London, 60 answered his call, but very, very soon that role was going to increase, you know. I can't give you um the the where you know the period where 90, you know, but who at what point did the 90th member join? But it's really early because but John was obviously a really good uh showman and publicist, and he made sure that the London Branch reunions um were um publicised. There's another interesting story about how these veterans connected be but before John Davis uh connected them. So do you want me to tell you that?

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Okay, so I it only happened and he had um um in um recently when I got his obituary and it was really detailed, so there's lots of information in it that I didn't know. And it also included the fact that in the late 1890s he heard about an American veteran, a mar a former mariner in London, and he wrote to that veteran and informed him that he was um uh uh allowed to get a pension from the American government due to disability arising from it. And that veteran was Edward Munro, who claimed to be the oldest uh Civil War veteran in London, different dates of birth, etc. Um, he'd seen the uh action uh during, uh before, during, and after the Civil War. And it's interesting because when you read Edward Munro's accounts, he says that a veteran of the Civil War informed him that he was eligible for a pension. And going back to what you said at the beginning of the podcast, you know, joining those dots, I now know it was Thomas Vulcan. So these veterans were connecting with each other before the Civil War, and as I say, eventually Thomas has obviously heard about the the London branch and joined their role. He must have uh we can imagine, I think I said to you um earlier, uh one of it his London branch medal was preserved. So unless John Davis posted it, then Thomas must have gone to the reunions to buy one.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, and of course, you know, one of the reasons we're talking about Thomas Folkins is because we are going to um you know um dedicate him. But just tell us what happened in his final years of his life.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

I think it was a couple of months before he passed away that he went to he was part of the local kind of uh like a veterans association down in gospel, and he went along and they played taps to um or played the beauty, you know, the last post, I beg your pardon, to a veteran, and then curiously, you know, a couple of months later they were playing taps at Thomas's um funeral. Now um it's interesting because the yeah, the veterans, so it's February 1913. That it was a guy, it was a Crimean War veteran called John Jenkins, and uh you know, Thomas has gone to his funeral, and then a couple of months later, people at Thomas's uh funeral. Um I'm just trying to think who the president was at the time because one of the things I quite liked about it is the resilience of the Vokins family. Oh, that's it. So um one of the things, even though Thomas's services was verified, and we've only recently been able to get his pension file, and I think that's another uh indicator why we there was a discrepancy on dates of death, because it was only his pension file that finally confirmed it, and by sheer chance it wasn't stored in Washington, DC, it was somewhere else in the United States, and at the 11th hour, um you know, towards the latter part of last year when we were planning this dedication, that suddenly suddenly um Brian Reinhart of Civil War Records.com contact me and said, I found Thomas's pension file, and it's really, really thick. And um what I like about it is the ripples of his service played forward uh like decades after his death. So the first ripple, he's got a daughter called Miriam, and Miriam and Eliza are applying for their the pension of Thomas, like the widow's pension, and as usual the pension bureau dragged their heels. I don't know why they ever did it, because if the pension service is verified, then surely it'd be a very easy fix to say, Yep, here's your widow's pension. I know uh my great-great-grandmother had you know had to prove George Denham's service over again and her marriage to him in order to get a widow's pension. Well, Eliza found herself in the same situation trying to prove that she'd been married to uh Thomas. And what I quite like about is that Miriam's daughter decided she'd had enough of this, and she wrote to President uh Woodrow Wilson and sort of said, Look, I'm appealing to you. She initially thought that she said, Oh, my father served in the Civil War, you know, he fur he served under General Grant and was in all these campaigns. So I do wonder what Thomas had said to her. And then a couple of ladies, uh months later, she wrote another letter saying, I'm really sorry, but I I thought my dad served under General Grant, but I realised he served on the Sonoma, etc. So eventually um Eliza got that widow's pension and all was well. Um, and eventually um uh their daughter Miriam and Eliza move up to Derby. So there's a bit of a derby connection going on here. So yeah, um that's the sort of the the the sort of ending, but it wasn't the ending. But I'm gonna take a breath, Daz, because just in case you've got questions to ask.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Yeah, no, so I'm just gonna say obviously you connected with the Folkins family. Um tell us how that went down and how you know Thomas became uh or ended up on your radar as somebody that should be you know rededicated. Obviously, that's our aim, isn't it? But how did you come up with him next as the next person, or how did it all go about you meeting?

SPEAKER_01 35:02

I think I don't know, it was I suppose it I mean the the dilemma with all these London Brach, who do you honour? And as you and I'd said, I think one dedication a year is I mean, as you recall, um you were at Cape Hall this year representing the monumental project on July 4th, and on that day in July 4th, I was up in Derby as we unveiled the last veteran plaque for Samuel Hoff. Um, but I think this the Thomas Voking story started developing and became a bit of a tsunami because when of of you know information, because I reached out to one of his descendants who joined Descendants of the London Branch and just illustrates why it's been such a an important endeavour to create descendants of the London branch. Because you remember John Davis founded the London Branch because he said many a time, you know, we meet each other at the consulate and we we ask, will somebody you know put an American flag over our grave, etc. So he decided to form this London branch for mutual benefit. Well, if you think fast forward to September 20th, 2020, and shortly before that day, I'd said to you, look, Dads, we're I'm encountering a lot of descendants of these London Branch veterans, some of whom have no idea about their forebears service, some do. And I I said maybe we should create uh an organisation to connect them all and bring them all together for mutual benefit. And from where I see it, it has absolutely been such a meaningful endeavour because the pictures that we've managed to get of these London branch veterans, which has just been stored in you know family photograph uh photograph albums, has been quite outstanding. And you know, there's a sense of pride that you and I, you know, perhaps the nature of the people we are desired to do it. Of course, one of those people to join uh was Jane Parker, and just through corresponding with Jane, she said, Oh, I've got some I've got some you know material relating to Thomas, so you know, shall I send you some pictures? And she could have knocked me down with a feather because one of the she sent me the pictures, and you've got uh an image of Thomas's uh uh long service and good conduct medal um from the Navy. We're not sure if it was made by him or issued. You've got a medal um which has got I can't remember what you call them, but they're the kind of the it will say what actions the soldier or sailor served at, and of course it says um Port Fisher sunk to etc. And that of course they're the reasons why I thought, well, maybe he did serve there. Um but putting that aside, he had, of course, this London branch medal with the little eagle at the top. So what you see there in that image, the invite to the dedication is very similar to um the London branch actual medals. You've got the um the cannon and eagle cannons and eagles and cannonballs at the top, and of course the very unique London branch um medal at the bottom that looks like a Grand Army of the Republic medal, uh but obviously it's uh unique. It's got around this at the eager circumferences as London Branch of American Civil War veterans, and at the bottom September the 20th, 1910. So yeah, so I think it was corresponding with Jane, getting this wealth of information, and it just seemed as though um we had the family on board, so we had we had lots of reasons to decide do you know what? Let's make it make it him the next veteran. I think also the other thing is that derby connection as well. Jim, wouldn't we just uh sort of so Thomas's um widow Eliza had gone up to Derby and Thomas had named his house in gospel Sonoma. Not only did he name his house Sonoma, but he also had a flagpole out the front, apparently with the stars and stripes. So you know this guy's quite patriot patriotic, he's got a tattoo on his arm of a flag, he's got a flag actually flying outside of his dress, and he even names his home Sonoma. Um so Eliza and and um his daughter Miriam are living up in Derby, and Eliza hears in about I think it's about 1830, sorry, 1938, 1939, uh sees a press release talking about Sam Hoff in Derby, you know, getting the veterans, and it was in the Derby Daily Telegraph, and a couple of days later she contacted the Derby Daily Telegraph and said, Well, hang on, I get you know, I'm a widow and I live in this area. Now, Eliza, I mean, one thing we haven't really explored, Daz, and maybe we should, because we want to be fairly inclusive, I think, um, is who was the last widow, because Eliza died in 1942. So you've got Sam as being the last male veteran of the conflict, but because as we sometimes know, the widows, I think it was quite recently in the United States where um I think there was still a recipient of a Civil War veteran's pension until quite recently in the States. So yeah, so there's a Derby connection with Thomas, and it I think go if thinking about the last year we've had with Derby, we've got uh Scott and Jane Jarvis up there, you know, we've got you know a good relationship with friends of Nottingham Road Cemetery, we've got uh just a connection, obviously that's where we're gonna put the monument as well. And I think it was just you know, everything felt a good fit. Let's let's let's let's put Thomas as the the next veteran that we're gonna honour.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Absolutely, and again, it's gonna take place, and again, if you're watching this afterwards, it's already been, but if you if you are watching this before, October the 17th, uh 2026 at Gosp in Gospel, uh, which is down in Hampshire, which uh of course is uh got a big naval connection, you know. So maybe that's what drew Thomas down there having that naval connection. Um Grand Hill Cemetery um in Gospel. So I mean we're looking forward to that, aren't we? We're gonna uh do the usual. Uh we're gonna, you know, I'll be dressed up in my really nice outfit and uniform and uh you know the planning. How is the planning and and um what's happening at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Well, yeah, so the mayor of um uh gospel is gonna be doing the unveiling. I've reached out to the US Embassy and you uh our usual contacts um in terms of potentially getting the US Air Force along. Still waiting to hear back from them because always they've got rotation of staff. So um I did reach out to the British Legion um down in Gosport. Haven't heard back from them. They were going to talk about it. Um there is um a local um sea cadets organisation. I've again I've written to them, but I haven't heard back. But we know that we've got some SOSCAN members uh going. Um so as usual, we'll be um displaying the Landerbratch banner behind his grave, which I think is always a nice touch, especially as he obviously was a Landerbarch veteran. Um I think um I'll probably be wearing uh a Mariner's outfit just to uh give people indication of type of uniform that he would have worn. Um starts at 11:30, um, or that's what what time we're asking people to come along. It's a 12 o'clock start, and these dedications usually go on for an hour, and then after the dedication, um probably be photographs, that kind of thing. You we do the usual speeches, reflaying, um, you know, the unlight unveiling, etc. But we've also, um, courtesy of the family, have also booked a local pub where we can go to afterwards and enjoy a glass of friendship, which is always a nice touch after that, to you know, do what John Davis said about fraternise and tell these campfire tales fathoms long of you know these veterans and their lives. So, you know, these veterans may have long passed away, but it's the people in the here and now that still remember them and you know keep the flag flying for them and their service. So, yeah, that's sort of um if we're gonna be talking about a dedication and people are listening and they're thinking about coming along, I always say please bring a consider bringing a chair, because these dedications take about an hour. We don't want anybody fainting, and also because we have very unpredictable weather in the UK, please bring an umbrella. And um, but yeah, we're not gonna have to go far when we finish the dedication, um, because the place we're going to is literally around the corner. So um people want to contact if people do want to come along to us, then obviously you've got the um QR code on the invite, or they can contact me on Civil War UK Monumental Project at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

Absolutely. Well, yeah, and uh I look forward to seeing yourself there, and I'll definitely be there. And uh yeah, um anyone else is welcome. Um so yeah, so um that's Thomas Fokins, and and again, uh dedications 17th of October 2026, down in gospel. So, you know, I want to thank you for coming on talking about Thomas Fokins' life, and uh yeah, it's uh it's uh pretty cool that you know yet again we're we're on the trail and we're doing what we're doing, and uh yeah, more to come in the future, as you said, to be continued. So any final thoughts you want to add before we uh wrap up here?

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Oh yeah, you yeah, one thing I forgot about um well I quite I like the tenacity of the Volkins family. That's another thing. So I mentioned you that in 1914, I think 1915, uh the Miriam, their daughter, uh you know, tried to appeal to President Wilson to kind of go, look, he served, let's get the pension sorted, and it did. Blow me down. Um in October 1944, as the Allies are storming, you know, the Europe, etc. Uh they and Miriam fought another campaign herself because this time she was trying to get her mother's funeral expenses paid for, which was about £200, because apparently she had to be cared for, etc. And um so this time Miriam wrote to President Roosevelt. I've not found that in a pension file. Occasionally veterans you know appeal to important people, but I think that's the other thing I like about the Vulkins file. It's very thick, there's lots of information in there that has helped to find up about Thomas. Um, but the fact that his daughter Miriam had the wherewithal to think, you know what? That's right, to two presidents, not one but two. So I think I'm part I'm gonna park Thomas now because I think we talked a lot about him, and I'm yeah, I'm looking forward to the dedication. It's a nice cat. You know, you know I'm nervous on the days, always that anxiety, it needs to go off seamlessly and perfectly, um, to my exact instance. So to be continued, as you say.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

Absolutely. Well, all there's left to say at this point, Gina, is thank you very much for giving up your time. Come and talk to me about Thomas Foggins. Thank you. And cheers.