.jpg)
American Civil War & UK History
**American Civil War & UK History Podcast**
American Civil War & UK History is dedicated to discussing, exploring, and educating people about the past. Through our blog posts and podcasts, we bring history to life. History is filled with defining events, powerful stories, and fascinating characters — and through our platform, we aim to share those stories with everyone.
As well as our American Civil War & UK History podcast, we also produce several other shows. These include For the Passion of History Podcast, The Figures of the American Civil War Podcast, and England’s Kings and Queens Podcast
All are proudly produced by American Civil War & UK History.
American Civil War & UK History
WWI: Flying Aces — Featuring The Flying Historian
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
WWI: Flying Aces — Featuring The Flying Historian
In this episode of the American Civil War & UK History Podcast, host Daz is joined by historian Kelsey Ellington, better known as **The Flying Historian**, to explore the lives and careers of three of the most famous flying aces of the First World War: **Cecil Lewis, Edward “Mick” Mannock, and Manfred von Richthofen, the legendary “Red Baron.”**
We discuss their experiences in the skies over the Western Front, their aerial victories, the realities of aerial combat during the First World War, and the very different legacies these pioneering aviators left behind.
The Flying Historian's Links
https://linktr.ee/flyinghistorian?utm_source=linktree_profile_share<sid=bf12d194-7e61-42a0-8613-324726aa2b94
ACW & UK History's Website.
https://www.acwandukhistory.com/
ACW & UK History's Pages.
https://linktr.ee/ACWandUKHISTORY
ACW & UK History's Website.
https://www.acwandukhistory.com/
To keep up to date with everything of American Civil War and UK history, head over to our website ACW and UK History.com. And remember, this podcast has a PowerPoint presentation that goes along with the show. So if you would like to see the PowerPoint presentation, then head over to our YouTube channel at American Civil War and UK History. Cheers. Hello everyone, I'm Daz and welcome to American Civil War and UK History Podcast. This presentation is available as a video on our YouTube channel or as a podcast from wherever you get your podcast from. And remember, if you're watching on YouTube to hit the subscribe button and give us a big thumbs up. And uh visit our website at www.acwandukhistory.com where you'll find podcasts, blog posts, and links to all of our social media pages. And it is also available in the podcast subscription. Joining me today is historian Kelsey Ellington, otherwise known as the Flying Historian. Welcome.
SPEAKER_01Hey yeah, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00So you have a fantastic social media presence, and uh of course you do a lot of writing as well, and we will talk about that at the end of the podcast. Um, but as it is your first time on the podcast, could you please uh tell everyone how you first became interested in history, in particular, you know, World War I um aviation, I suppose.
SPEAKER_01Oh gosh. So in secondary school, I will admit I used to mess around in my history lessons and I didn't take any of them seriously. I didn't care for it. I just didn't really. I guess my history teachers, I won't I wasn't that interested um in learning from them. Um, but I would always absorb documentaries every time I went home um on an on an afternoon or an evening, I would always watch them. And the aviation aspect is because where I grew up is near um an old aerodrome called Thornaby Aerodrome. And we have a um a Spitfire on one of the roundabouts, and so I would always drive past it. But as a child, that was kind of my knowledge of aviation and what aviation was just Spitfire and that's it. Um and then when I got into university, so I did art history at uni and at Uni of York, and I absolutely I loved it, I really loved it. Um but my dissertation was all about Victorian times because I love Victorians as well. Um and I went to the Yorkshire Air Museum with a friend, and I saw this SE5 in the corner, and I I was like, what's that? And he told me and um couldn't quite believe that there were you know pilots and flying machines and war machines in the first world war when a war that seemed so, I guess at that time to me, so primitive and so, you know, um, well, I thought in terms of World War II, which is the sort of knowledge that I had at this time, um advanced, I suppose. Um and I couldn't believe that we actually had flying machines in you know involved as well. So anyway, I ended up going down this rabbit hole and found out about all these different races, all these different fighter pilots, and it mixed in all of the Victorian stuff that I love, the Edwardian stuff that I love, all the sort of flying machine interest, the fascination with um sort of aviation, sort of military aviation history that I already had as a child. Um, and it mixed it all together. And eventually I thought, well, I've always wanted to write a fiction story, so I decided to set out writing a fictional story about fighter pilots in training. Um, and then I would share the different bits of research on my Instagram, and then one day a video just really went out there and did the rounds, and all of a sudden I had and had an audience. And I've just kind of started uh I've just been creating since with it, really.
SPEAKER_00Fantastic. Thank you, Kelsey. Thank you for explaining that. Excellent. And uh when you find that passion, it's uh very hard to let go. And yeah, you do go down rabbit holes. I've do the same myself, so thanks. Yeah, so um our topic obviously is uh flying aces in World War One, and we're gonna focus on a couple of those. Um, and I'm sure there's loads, but we're gonna focus on a few. Um, okay, so let's start off with uh what role did aircraft play though during World War One and uh how did their use evolve from simple uh reconnaissance to aerial combat and ground attacks?
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh, wow, what a loaded question.
SPEAKER_02Sorry, yeah.
SPEAKER_01No, it's not, it's perfect. So I suppose we could really go back to probably Cayley. We'll go back to George Cayley in the 1700s, and he was kind of known as the father of aviation. And I mentioned him because any chance I get to mention George Cayley, I will. Um it is a hill that I will die on, and he's a local lad, and uh, you know, so I love him. And um, so he obviously discovered the sort of different elements of flight, but at the time the technology of engines and things weren't really available to him, so he couldn't quite get past the sort of um thrust element of pushing the aircraft, the aircraft forward. And then, of course, you had the Wright brothers come along with the Wright Flyer in 1903, and then 11 years later, we ended up taking aircraft for warp, and that little gap, that 11-year gap, that's insane to me how we had them as a sort of affluent curiosity. The society at the time, you know, people who were interested in aviation were generally rich people who could afford the time and money to take an interest in it. Um, and it goes from being a sort of leisure hobby into something that countries were thinking, oh, we should probably use this for warfare. And um, that's fascinating to me. And we had um, I mean, everybody kind of wanted a bit into it. So you had the French Air Force farming in 1910, then in 1911, you had the Italians. I mean, arguably the Italians were the first to take aircraft to war against the Turks um when they had this sort of Roman claim to territory and things that they were doing at the time. And they they are arguably the first people to use aircraft in war. Um, and then obviously, then you had the Royal Flying Corps in 1912. So it's I think everybody wanted a sort of slice of the pie. And I think naturally for humans, we we see other people doing something, and we kind of think, right, maybe it's a good idea for ourselves to get involved in this in case it ends up going a bit a bit wrong, and we all sudden end up in a war. So I think that's kind of what spurred this military fascination with aircraft. Um, but you did have a couple of different sort of people be a bit skeptical about it. Like Ferdinand Fock, he he was skeptical and he believed that aircraft should be kept as leisure and as sport rather than as you you know being useful for aerial reconnaissance or warfare. Um, and so a lot of people were a bit skeptical, but eventually the push-through and we um we ended up going off to war when when it came up. So we ended up in the first world war, we ended up taking around 105 officers and 755 men, um, which kind of shows just how little we really invested in this branch of the min of the army. Um and even then we we ended up um taking every single aircraft that we had to war. And at the beginning, it was kind of a thing where anybody would just take their aircraft with them. So, you know, if you had whatever you had spare, if you were a gentleman flyer, you'd just go and take that anywhere. So that's basically in a nutshell how we ended up going to war with all this aircraft. So when we first started going off to war, we had um the main use was reconnaissance because you know trench warfare was cropping up. And I think, I mean, maybe you can tell me um a bit more accurately, but I think the Western Front stretched roughly 440 miles, I think. It was huge, it was huge. Yeah, yeah. So commanders needed to know where everybody was, where artillery were, where the troops were, basically everything that we could know. Um, and so we thought, right, well, we'll send aeroplanes over and they can basically scout for us, take pictures, um, send messages, and then come back, no problem. Jobs are good in. Um, and it helped aircraft really helped to identify troop movements. Um, but then eventually, and we'll probably we will touch upon him later on, but Manfred von Richtoffen, now he's a classic example because when he went in as an observer, he I love this story because he noticed that you know there's people taking vital information back over with them. We need to do something about this. We can't have people taking pictures of our stuff and then leaving, just no problem, like untouched. So he took a rifle up with him and he told his pilots. So at the time, pilots were more seen as like chauffeurs driving officers around and observers around, and um, he took a rifle up with him, and yeah, he was he was kind of like backseat driving, and he was saying, he was saying, you know, try and get closer, get closer, do this, do that. But the pilot didn't have the capabilities that he wanted or needed, so he um he ended up going in as a pilot himself and saying, right, well, if if you're gonna do the job, I'll do it type thing. Um, and that's really when we started kind of going into this, like, oh, okay, so people are taking more pictures of the trenches, people are noticing what's going on a little bit more. Really, we need to do something about this, we need to tackle them and stop them. Um, and then eventually you kind of go into this sort of like aircraft being armed type thing. Um, and really honestly, the the development year by year was really jarring. So, in terms of recruitment, just really quickly, um, you would have tradesmen joining up with one set of skills, and they'd have to constantly learn new sets of skills all the time, every year. And you got to a point where instructors were actually writing their own manuals based on their own experiences that would be sent off, and then kind of like an average sort of thing worked out between everybody and what worked and what didn't, and then that would be distributed back. Um, and that's fascinating because it really was a war where everybody was just learning as we went, um, because tech was just and it's kind of like the sad, sad thought about technology as it is it only really develops when well, it seems it only really develops when there's war and when there's this sort of crushing need to develop it rather than you know, rather than anything interesting or fun or peaceful, and it I think that's quite sad to be honest. Um, but yeah, both sides basically realised that protecting reconnaissance aircraft was crucial. So then initially, pilots would carry pistols and rifles um and try and bash each other with them, try and throw things. Um, but originally when we were flying, there's actually reports of pilots spotting each other in the sky, like enemy pilots spotting each other in the sky, and they'd just wave at each other or they'd take a picture of each other and fly off. And it went from that to then all of a sudden you had a Russian pilot like Alexander Kozakov, and he would use the landing gear of his aircraft to try, he would attach an anchor or a hook to the landing gear and try and bash the pilot over the top of the head as he flew over the top, and that was his tactic. And that's just so sad and so gruesome, and it's it's just kind of goes to show the state of mankind, doesn't it really? If anything. Um, so then obviously we're looking towards like 1915, 1916 here. Um, so yeah, so the Germans had this interruptor gear which allowed them to forward fire through the propeller, which obviously is a big advantage for fighter pilots um and when you're trying to shoot down enemy aircraft. So that ended up with the sort of bloody air pole that we had, um, which was really difficult. Um it's a terrible time in in RFC history, actually. And um we just couldn't seem to well, we we couldn't figure out our own interrupter gear at the time, and we couldn't seem to down anybody, and we were the ones that were getting constantly attacked, and it ended up into this horrific, big, big loss to the point where um if you wanted to have a reconnaissance mission, you had to have permission, and you had to have you had to be escorted as well by uh fighter pilots. So reconnaissance aircraft couldn't just go out on their own anymore, you had to be escorted via it, which is fascinating. And that was that was the the you know the sort of cause of that, the consequence of Bloody April. Um, but eventually we got good news because an iron decker landed on our side, which we were able to rip apart, and we discovered the interruptor gear, fitted it to some aircraft, made some new brand new aircraft, and uh and suddenly the the playing field was was even at that point. Um so then towards like 1917, 1918, that's when you had all sorts of aircraft. You had reconnaissance, you had fighters, bombers, ground attack. Um you could attack trenches, railway, supply lines, troops. We honestly, yeah, it it really did it really did absolutely just expedite towards the end of the war into something that planes started as this leisurely aircraft and ended up uh ended up as a full-fledged war machine.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, and absolutely fascinating, really is. And I I I honestly didn't know any of that of like that's how they started fighting each other. I think that's fantastic. What great stories, and uh again, you know, the uh like you said, war is uh and when a lot of stuff is invented, um, and uh, you know, sometimes it's you know, like you said, it's for good, uh, but it's not, you know, because it's invented during war, so there's lots of examples of wars where things are invented, so yeah, but that's fantastic. Um, okay, let's talk about the Royal Flying Corps, as we know the RAF, and uh what its main responsibilities were. And of course, you know, a lot of these new pilots coming in, have they ever flown a plane before? And and what's the training process for these guys?
SPEAKER_01I love the training process of the RFC. So I suppose we'll go back to recruitment. Um, so originally, when they were trying to recruit uh tradesmen, for example, um they would go around and have these sort of um trade shows where people would go off, demonstrate their skills, and then be taken to where they needed to be um and where they would be useful. And we actually had we could be very choosy at the beginning because we had um a huge amount of people sign up with a huge amount of skills. And while people on the posters it mentioned that the wanted people from age um 18 to 30, they would actually go for people between 20 to 25. I think that was recruited at a 25, uh 50, no, um, so we would actually go for people who were age 20 to 25, and that was a 53% recruitment rate. So you can actually see that despite the poster advertising the ages, um, we actually had a preference of our own, and that was because they wanted young men with worldly experience and that had experience of their skills. Um, and obviously, age brings uh brings that as well. You you know, you get what did they say? They get you get wise with age or something. Um, so obviously that's that played um a factor in there as well. Um and at this time they also wanted uh public school boys because they I suppose they just wanted to have some gentlemanly flyers, some people with trades. But the problem with universities at this time in history um is that they didn't prioritize mechanic classes, for example. They universities prioritised making good characters of young men, and instead of the sciences, they chose to prioritize studying the classics, for example. And I don't know how well the classics will really board when you're in in war, in combat, um trying to fix things. So they um so yeah, so they they didn't wanted they wanted educated um men, but they um but the problem with sorry so the Royal Flying Corps wanted educated men, but schools at the time, you know, once schooling was over, uh the sort of skilled workers, the tradesmen would go into work straight away, they wouldn't stay in education. So the the challenge for the Royal Flying Corps was they wanted educated men, but they also wanted skilled men, but at this time it's kind of one or the other, really. Um eventually, I mean eventually had civic universities popping up that did have you know prioritized sciences and things um eventually, and that was a great selection for them to go to. So, in terms of in terms of recruitment, they actually had a bit of a struggle, but saying that they did get or you know, um, they did get loads of people coming and signing up and joining up as well. Um so yeah, that was kind of the bit about recruitment. Um they they needed educated officers, but they also depended on practical and technical workers. You had mechanics, fitters, wireless operators, clerks, electricians, riggers, and transport staff. And interestingly, the in terms of the um learning how to uh fix an airframe, they had to assemble it and disassemble it, and then um they got so so many people joining up that they had to go to sort of public bodies and say, Hi, can you take on these recruits so you can train them? And so different people would be sent to reserve squadrons, active fighting squadrons, um public organisations to learn. And they that so that kind of shows the impact that the people people wanted the new thing that they wanted to go to the new army, this new branch of of the British Army. Um how exciting! Um, and I I think that's quite a good comment on society in general, is once something interesting and new comes along, we kind of want to be the we we want to get on board, and whether that's for our own self, um, for the pay um, or even just like fascination and interest. And also at this time, as well, you know, it's it's good money for people who have been living in situ like a lot of people join joining the infantry, um joining the army in general, a lot of people's living situations before this had been pretty, you know, pretty naff, some some of them. So joining the army gave them pay, it gave them clean clothes, it gave them a place to sleep, it gave them food. Um, so there's lots of reasons why people would join up to the different branches of the military. Of course, towards the end, we were then desperate for people. So a lot of unskilled people ended up getting taken on as tradesmen. So you had farmers, you had teachers, minors got taken on as well, and because we basically just needed as much as many bodies as we could. Um so, in terms of pilots, it's really interesting how how they had their education. So when we think about fighter pilots training today, we think about the centrifug that goes round and round and round, and and if you see the cameras, they all look like they're getting old and stuff, and then the pops back young again when they get out. Um, but back then their centrifug was a typing chair, and I'm not kidding, they would have to go sit on this typing chair and be spun round. Was it was it 10 times in 20 seconds or 20 times in 10 seconds? Um I'll double check what um so they had to be spun round um however many times in a certain amount of seconds, and then they had to get up and walk in a straight line. And that is so that's so fascinating.
SPEAKER_00Just how yeah, so that's their training. Let's sit in a chair or spin you around, you know. So we we could do that, couldn't we? In uh, you know, we could go and sit in a chair and spin around. Have you tried it yourself?
SPEAKER_01No, yeah, I haven't yet, but I really want to, and I was thinking about doing it for a video. And I was really like I was actually I was saying to um I was saying to one of my one of my um friends that I'd really like to if I had the connections or I had the money or whatever it would be, I would approach a sort of producer and say, Look, I've got an idea for a documentary, and then I think whatever it would be, that would be an element of it, and then try out the centrifuge pod.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, why not? You know, get put put people through the training of the time, you know? That would be fantastic.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, I'd love that.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Um, another interesting point is there was a guy called Norman Macmillan who wanted to be a pilot, and part of his medical exam was that he had to pick out um different coloured string from different coloured balls of wool, and that was just to test colour blindness because obviously that's important. You don't want to relay the wrong message or however it is, you don't want to spot the wrong aircraft or whatever, whatever colour scheme it had to be, you don't want colour. Blindness. Um, and so that was his medical exam. He was also asked if he could ride a horse, row a boat, ride a motorbike, um, any sort of gentlemanly pursuits. And when he said yes to all of them, he was passed and he went off, and that was him done. And um, I think as soon as you got, yeah. So as soon as you got double digits um in your flying hours, that's it, you could go, you were free to go off to the front. And that is insane to me because all of all the training that they do now, I mean, they have to do all sorts of um, you know, they go for they progress from different uh different stations, and then within those stations are different aircraft. Um, of course, we did have the central flying school, and then we did have advanced flying school as well. Um, and it's true that um tradesmen could go to get held back or go to different advanced um schools as well of their own. So it's kind of like you've got these pilots and tradesmen kind of running at a parallel sort of training thing, but then as soon as they get to the front, everybody's learning all together, all at the same time. And that's fascinating. Um so that's kind of like a bit on the training. I think a big takeaway in modern times, a lot of people think of the Royal Flying Corps and they think about the fighter pilots, think about the aces, but also it's so important to think about the rigors, the fitters, the mechanics, the electricians, the clerks, all of those people played hand. Um, and it'll be interesting when um later on in conversation we'll when we talk, especially when we talk about the Red Baron, um we'll I'll touch on sort of celebrity culture and propaganda as well. And we'll probably probably then at that point see why that memory, the legacy of the of the fighter pilot is so heavily associated with World War One and RFC. Um, and yeah, that's it, that'll be that'll be really interesting to talk about.
SPEAKER_00Fantastic. I I think this is just such a fascinating topic. There's they're sort of making it up as they go along, like you said, they've not really done this before, have they? And it's just like you know, like you said, um ask them questions if they can do this, that, and the other, and you're in, you know, it's uh you've got the bad. But um, yeah, no, fantastic. Thank you for explaining all that. Okay, we are gonna start talking about some of these uh these uh fire pilots now. And of course, one of the most famous ones is the Red Baron himself, and uh I'm not gonna try and say his name because I'll butcher it, so I'll leave that for you. Um, but um tell us about this uh very good-looking gentleman in his great uniform and uh you know him and his like you said, I know you told him uh his like origin story, um, but tell us a bit more about the Red Baron.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so he is a very aristocratic gentleman, and you can see him there in his portrait with the blue max, and that is named after Max Ilman. Um, it's a French medal, really quickly about the medal, it's a French medal, and it's I'm not even gonna try and pronounce the French um French to the medal because I will puncture that. But yeah, basically, um the medal that he's wearing is is the the nickname is the Blue Max because of Max Illman. Um so that yes, he is an aristocratic gentleman. He comes from a very long line of people who have served the Prussian nobility and mostly in cavalry regiments. His dad was in a cavalry regiment, um, and obviously he signed up kind of following in those footsteps as was expected of families at that time. Um and for Manfred von Ristoffen, which is such every time so I have a German friend, and every time, so she's very good at helping me pronounce a lot of the uh German when that I come across, and she's very helpful with translating things for me. Um but if I get a name wrong, she's very uh she's very on it.
SPEAKER_00So she's probably watching this. Well, you're braver than me because I don't I'm not even gonna attempt that.
SPEAKER_01Oh, there's some words that come up later on that's like um Jadgeschwader.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, oh well, well done.
SPEAKER_01It's well, she's drained that into me as well.
SPEAKER_00Good, yeah. That's fantastic.
SPEAKER_01Um so yeah, basically, you know those questions where it's like, where do you see yourself in five years' time? And then you have to answer it. Well, for for um von Miktoffen, he saw himself leading a cavalry unit, and he was like, Yeah, I'm this is what I'm born to do. I am born to become this officer, this cavalry regiment lead. I'm gonna, you know, I'm really for this. And um, anyway, at this point, as we as we know, the cavalry be kind of became a little irrelevant when you have Prenches. And they kind of got assigned to do like sort of security work and stuff like that, and whatever of the tidbits that could put them. And there's actually a really fantastic photograph. Um, I can't remember the name for the life of me, but there's this really fantastic photograph of a um of a guy on his horse, and just in the background is an aeroplane coming along. I think it's so poignant, it's like the it's the lone cavalryman looking up to the sky, this aeroplane coming towards him. And if something doesn't sum up this moment in time, like that photo does I don't know what um it's it's such a good picture. Anyway, so he decided, right? Well, I want to join this. So Richtofen wanted to join the Luftrefta, which I think is how you pronounce it. I'm sure. I'm sure my German friend will let me know later. Um, but yeah, so uh he wanted to join this uh German Air Force, and he wanted uh to go in as an observer because that was typically what officers did. They went as observers, and the pilots were the chauffeurs, they would just drive them around. Um and he, as we touched on earlier, he went up armed with a rifle because he was like, right, I'm just gonna shoot as much as I can. I don't want you walking off with that, well, flying off with that information, so I'm gonna shoot you. Um but the pilot that he was with didn't quite do it enough for him, and it was kind of like imagine backseat driving. And he decided, right, I want to go up as pilot now. So he went through his training. Um and he yes, because he wanted a more like active role. Um and he actually he really uh um idolized a guy called Oswald Volker, and he was like a really known fighter pilot. Like that guy was was a was a fight. If you imagine a fighter pilot, that is Oswald Volker. And funny enough, his uh his funeral was actually a huge, huge affair um nationally, and you actually had RFC and Allied pilots flying over the top, dropping wreaths onto his coffin, and that's so fascinating, and it really does lead into how um propaganda was used for these pilots. Um so he, I suppose we should talk about why he's called the Red Baron, but it's it's mostly because he painted his aircraft bright red, so it was easy to recognise and it helped build that public image. And there's also a bit of a discussion whether it was to do with um sort of Prussian identity as well, because um, I believe their flag has red and white elements to it, I believe. Um definitely have to double check that, but it's there's some discussion around his sort of it's a nod to his nobility um and his lineage as well. Um so I mean he had 80 confirmed victories and he was the highest scoring ace of the war. Um, and then another sort of background to him is he led Jagashvada one, um, and that was the larger fighting wing named the Flying Circus. And he once Oswald Bolker passed away um after he had training, you know, he trained under Bolka, and again he looked up to him. Um so he got put in command of Yasta 11, and that was his famous fighter squadron. Um, so if you think about it, so Jagoshvada 1 was the larger formation, and that was made up of several squadrons, and Yasta 11 formed within the Jagoshvada 1. Um, so that's how that kind of came about. Um so yes, so in terms of propaganda, this is what I absolutely love about fighter pilots. Um so the ace. When we think about the ace, we think about sort of knights of the sky, cavalry of the clouds, and we think about these heroic figures, dog fights and the the lot. Um, I mean, in terms for you, when when you think of uh First World War Ace, what images come to mind for you?
SPEAKER_00Um for me, uh yeah, uh a celebrity, yeah. I think that's because I watched Black Adder, to be honest with you, though. That's the way it's portrayed, you know. So you've got Lord Flashheart, and again, he comes into the trench, doesn't he? Look, you should know who I am because I'm a celebrity, you know. Um, and that's that celebrity image. And I can imagine them using this celebrity image, uh, you know, particularly when trying to recruit and uh and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_01Oh gosh, yeah, yeah. So um the British were a little bit more uh British about things, a bit more stiff up the lip. Yeah, we had Aces, but everyone was a little reluctant about me, about the public image. Um, but Rick's offen, no, he was yeah, this was his the spotlight was his.
SPEAKER_00And you can tell that by his by his pictures, you know, he looks very confident, you know. Look at me.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, absolutely. So at the beginning, he was a hunter and he would collect, I mean, you had to collect sort of downed victories to prove that you'd downed them, but also he just had them on his wall. Um, and that reminds me so much of sort of sportsmanship, and that comes into flying a lot. It's it's seen as this sportsmanship, it's seen as hunting, and in terms of going back to sportsmanship really quickly, um, captured pilots would be treat with decent hospitality. Um, you know, there would there was films made about the pilots in cap captivity and being treated well, and who knows what happened actually after the films were turned off, but from the films that we could see, they were trekked quite well. Um, so again, I'll say say the word again, but sportsmanship comes into play big time for these guys. So, yeah, so in terms of propaganda, um, you have this image of the sportsman, the hunter, um, the aristocrat, and that's so addictive for people. And in terms of packaging up news stories and things of the war, it's so easy to do it through a narrative than it is through actually telling the statistics. And that was the appeal of the ACE. He served as this narrative. On the one, well, on the one hand, he served as a narrative to tell the general public about how the war was getting on and what was going on and give people hope. You know, this uh, you know, McCudden's done another victory, we've shot down more people, or if for the Germans, Bolk has done this, and we've now we're now doing this, and that was easier to understand. And then on the second hand, it does go for recruitment, it works for recruitment as well because everybody's like, oh, well, I fancy being a bit a bit like that, and that's what I want to do. Um, so Ricktoffen appeared in newsreels shown in German cinemas, and um what they would do afterwards, and it's kind of very it's like 1980s when Top Gun came out, and my dad told me that at the end of the um at the end of the showing, they the Navy would stand outside with like application forms. Um and I think that's mad, but it happened here as well in World War One. That you had um the German Air Force standing outside of cinemas with applications after the scene. Yeah, after scene Ricktop and I'm gonna be able to do that.
SPEAKER_00I imagine that actually, I can vision that, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And he um the films would show him relaxing, playing tennis, going for a flight, having a nice hunt, and then he'd get back and be like all chatty with the with the pilot, like you know, captured pilot or his comrades or anything like that. He would be having the time of his life, and of course people are gonna want in on that. That's that's similar to how we watch TV now and see any advertisement. You know, someone's advertising a shampoo bowl. You want that because you work, it makes your hair look good. So you want to be part of this because wow, look, you can be part of this whole thing, this experience.
SPEAKER_00And again, using that uniqueness of obviously fly in and it's all new, and again, I suppose to the public, this is like, wow, you know, look at that, that's so cool. And also, um, what kind of fear does that put into the British pilots? You know, like once they see that red plane, you know, oh my god, and also there must be some kind of competition between them as well, and to say, well, when if you do see that red plane, I'd love to shoot that one down, you know. So there's that as well, I suppose, isn't there?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, it did become kind of a it kind of became known as um Red Devil. The French called him Red Devil. Um, so he was not he he just was invincible, he seemed to be invincible. Um, he did come close to being shot down, he was shot through the ear and temporarily lost his vision and but did a controlled landing. And after that, he wasn't the same. Um, he was reported to as soon as he landed, as soon as he would come back from a combat mission, he would lock himself in his room. And whereas before he would celebrate and stuff. And I think coming close to death really brought it home for Rick Toffin, and it really made him think, oh, actually, there is a price to pay. And it's not all just fun and games. But also at the same time, these are just young boys. A lot of these going up, they're just young, young boys. Um, and that sort of risk factor. I mean, we've all we've all been there, we've all been at that age when we start, we you know, you first start driving, and you're in, you know, you're going up in lane two on the whatever motorway, lane two, lane three, because you're just like, I don't want to, I don't want to dawdle along. I'm I can do this, I can drive. But then oftentimes, like the car that whizzes past you one day is in a bush the next day. You know, it's it's confidence over ability sometimes, um, even though a lot of them were skilled, of course they were. Um and a lot of people died in training as well. So I try and always just think about this sort of young boy mentality of like, yeah, let's just do it, let's just get out there and let's just do it and see what happens. And then when you have that brush with death, or you start losing your colleagues, you start losing your friends, it really does bring it home for you. Um, but of course, the propaganda was not going to show that. So you had Sanka cards, which were kind of official collectible photographs. We didn't really do it over here, but over there in Germany, they had Sanka cards. And if you go on eBay, you can actually still buy Sanka cards today. They're obviously, you know, um pre-owned, obviously. Um, but they they are there and you can still collect them. And there's featured different fighter aces, different German aces, and um they're basically just collectible, collectible photographs that you could buy of your favorite of your favourite celebrities and put them up on your wall, put them on your in your photo album, send them off as a postcard. That's fascinating.
SPEAKER_00That is absolutely fascinating because these so in a way they're sort of sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. So in a way they're sort of like the first kind of pop stars, aren't they, in a way?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're similar to how you you collect pictures of footballers today. I mean these guys are yeah. Yeah, which is fascinating.
SPEAKER_00It is because yeah, and and and I've got to ask you, Kelsey, have you got any of those uh cards?
SPEAKER_01No, I don't, but I do I saw actually one came up for Bolker um months ago that was like 20 odd quid, but it hadn't quite been payday for me yet, so I I couldn't couldn't do it. I know I couldn't do it. So um, but I I was gifted a photograph of a mechanic, and I know it's like, oh it's a mechanic. Well, other people might think that I don't, I love him. But um when I saw the picture of the mechanic, um I I love that. I love that picture of him, and he's unknown, it's not got a name on him or anything like that, but it's just a wonderful photograph that obviously he's he's gone down, proud as anything, taken this picture in this brand new uniform, and he's obviously then sent that off home because it's on the back of the set as a postcard, and he sent that home to his family, and they've kept it for generations, and it's ended up in with me in my cabinet. Um and I love that, and it's so nice to collect sort of real people, and of course, the select these celebrities were real, but there's something different between a sort of usual picture of a sort of standard person, um, sort of service person, and then a celebrity. Um, but would I buy Sankakad? Yeah, probably. Uh it'd be interesting, but I'd probably have to look up the pilot first because there's some of the people that you see on eBay, I'd I have to type and be like, who is this person? Um yeah, it's it's I mean, do you have any pictures of of celebrity heroes from any of the wars?
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I mean, obviously I'm an American Civil War fanatic and I do love uh Ulysses S. Grant, you know, and uh I you know, I mean I'm not I I did have uh some uh pictures up, um not allowed them up anymore, but um because I got married. But um yeah, so that's what happens. Uh but um, you know, um again, you know, people like Robert Ely and that. I've I've got posters of those, you know. I used to have posters all over my wall, yeah, and like well that I'd framed up of the American Civil War, you know. Um but I I just think it's fat fascinating. Uh this this celebrity culture starts, but also I like the fact that you're mentioning the logistics of things because for me, I think it's very important that people understand that yes, you've got fighter pilots, you've got infantrymen, you've got this, that, and the other. But what makes that run is the uh the background, you know, the people in the background, the logistics. You can't you can't run an army or or an air force or anything without those supporting people. So I think it's quite cool that you found a picture of someone that is a mechanic because again, they're probably the most important person. Otherwise, that plane's not in the air, you know.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, well, that's yeah, absolutely. And and I guess briefly touching on the training, um, pilots would be expected to know how to work their machine, they wouldn't have to know the ins and outs, which is why um McCuddin, for example, he was so good um because he was such a skilled mechanic, he knew his airplane inside out, and the pilots and their mechanics became such a tight bond together because you had to trust that person sending you up into the air. So a lot of them would sort of tweak bits themselves, or the mechanics would get to know them to the point where they could just do you know work together on the air aircraft, and um, a lot of the pilots would also um sort of customize and um sort of tweak their aircraft to perform better as well. So this it wasn't unusual to see, but yeah, the m the bond between the mechanic and the pilot was such a strong one. But interestingly, when McCuddin died um before his uh biography could come out well was finished, um his editor actually took out the time his time as a mechanic. So he'd wrote about his time as a mechanic before becoming a pilot, but the editor took that out um before it went to publish because he didn't think it was interesting enough and people didn't care enough. And that source out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because again, like you said, you you're putting your the lot, you know, this this mechanics uh you know basically in charge of your life. If they get it wrong, you're yeah, you're knackered basically. Okay, let's talk about a couple of the British guys now, because uh again, now this guy's quite important, isn't he? Edward uh Maddock, I think that's how you pronounce his name. But um he he is gonna you know um win uh one of the most prestigious uh awards that is awarded, which is the VC, I believe. Um but t tell us a little bit about this guy and uh again, so is that celebrity status uh uh uh as vibrant in the Britain as it is in in the German uh side of things as well?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, so Manic, he well, uh completely in contrast with Rick Toffin, Manic has a difficult childhood. Um his father comes back from the Boer War and is completely different and leaves, he completely leaves his his uh family. His mother turns to alcohol, um, and he finds out that his sister becomes a prostitute as well. So Manuk is in he has to leave his education early, and he then has to go and support his family, so he picks up different jobs, he ends up in Turkey and ends up becoming um trapped in Turkey, we'll say, and then he manages to get his way back to Britain. Um so he was uh he was known for having this troubled, struggling upbringing, which when he then becomes this pilot, which are known as being gentlemanly fliers and stuff, he actually has a difficult time fitting in with them. Um he doesn't have what's called pilot etiquette, and it's kind of stuff like you don't talk about how many kills, you don't talk about like you know who died, you don't talk about like you don't sit in the aircraft with somebody who's just died. Like it's stuff like that where he doesn't seem to have so the respect for Manic isn't given. as it would be for other pilots, but he has to earn that. And he eventually does. He eventually does earn it. But yeah, he also had really serious health problems as well. He ended up having like a sort of astigmatism in his uh in his left eye. And that affected his vision as well. And he was an older pilot when he joined up as well. So that's it's quite fascinating. But yeah, and before the war he spent his time in telecommunications. So he has all of this sort of technical knowledge and technical skill that he can bring to the role. He wasn't a natural pilot either and he struggled during training. So again he had to work hard to master flying. But he he eventually got there and he became known as he is now. So he joined around 1916 well he arrived on the Western Front in 1916. And I mean at that point you know aircraft were faster they had machine guns, the interrupter gear and fighter tactics became a lot more organized. And so he would become known for his fighting tactics um throughout the war. He was always a sort of fan of sort of gaining height. So an idea for dogfights is you always want to try and be on top of the other person and at all times the height is the advantage. So it would end up in this sort of battle with pilots where they would start at a height and they would work the way down and lower and lower and lower until somebody out and flew off away or somebody died crashed or somebody got shot and that's kind of how how that would work. Manic was a fan of um coming in at height to attack his his enemy. So he believed in kind of studying that rather than just going through straight into it. And I believe that kind of comes down to his age because he's older than most pilots he's a little bit more experienced and I feel like he's got that sort of wise age worldly knowledge that younger people don't tend to have um and uh yeah so he was disciplined and he uh he planned things um and he was always he was a good leader as well and he he passed on this experience to younger pilots and he actually became really good friends with McCudden so after McCudden's passing he became a nervous wreck and he ended up um he ended up suffering with well with his nerves and he was always worried about his nerves and at this time so quite interestingly the pilots would only kind of be sent up for six months and then they would be brought back and that was that was them. So that was their service was six months and that's what they worked out worked the best for people. So they'd send them up and then six months later they'd go home and they'd either go for a break or they'd have a convalescence by the seaside because we're pilots of course we only have five star hotels you know and that's I feel like that's kind of lived on today like talking to people that I know um in all the jokes that you see about the REF only being given five star hotels. But back then they it's not that they weren't allowed to have shell shock because obviously they did suffer from it but medically they weren't actually diagnosed with shell shock because they were meant to be of a different caliper than the standard infantry soldier. So they would have something like war neurosis um and they wouldn't the sort of shell shock wouldn't be advertised or publicised. It would kind of just be a just go deal with it and then come back or they would just go and be sent to be an instructor for a bit and then kind of teach on their knowledge and then whatever happens happens after that. And that's quite fascinating that is so fascinating because it it goes all the way back to the sort of Victorian belief. So from my dissertation um I looked into sort of how Victorians treated depression and anxiety and one of the sort of one of the cures for depression back in the Victorian age was just to take a trip to Scotland. And that's mad that is crazy. Yeah and they said if you can't uh get all the way up to Scotland at least go to the north of England and I'm assuming they're talking about Northumberland not Teastide they're not going to come visit you then no no they're not so I mean to be fair I always if I need to get out of the house I'll probably go to the Moors or the Dales or Northumberland myself. So you know yeah there you go it cheers you up it well it's it's being surrounded by this sort of like these views and it's it's a nice reminder that something out there is bigger than your problems I guess. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I suppose that's what they're getting on about Scotland is because obviously there's some beautiful places in there some mountains and this that and the other up in the highlands I suppose so yeah I get it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah well I suppose like another sort of sense is that they they viewed Scotland through a very primitive lens. They they used Scotland as a tangible history to the Victorian industrial sort of revolution so while there was loads of town like God factories and all sorts cropping up in cities left right centre in England just go to Scotland and because everybody's so you know behind there type of thing even though we had the enlightenment and everything in in you know in Edinburgh and Glasgow and stuff but they would kind of bypass the lowlands and end up in the highlands. So anyway that's a huge tangent but it kind of it shows that that Victorian sort of thinking about depression and anxiety um well that can't apply to an officer no can't these pilots don't don't get PTSD they have to have something else and we'll just send them to a seaside convalescence and or we'll just make them an instructor and then they can stay here and and be okay um and that's that's that's I'll find that mad um but yes he did suffer with his nerves and once McCuddin uh once McCudden died he very much um he was he was heartbroken to be honest and he he really did find it difficult. So yeah so Manic really struggled with his mental health um after McCudden passed away and it was it was hard for him um and he kind of become became really disillusioned with the war. So eventually on the 26th of July 1918 he was killed um and it was basically that low altitude so what we were talking about the dog fights they've eventually worked their way to a low altitude um and the aircraft was hit by ground fire and they don't they don't know whether he died on impact or whether he burned alive in his aircraft.
SPEAKER_00Who was uh who was uh Cecily Lewis and what role does he play in Britain Britain's air war effort and and why is he remembered uh through his writings and his contribution to aviation history so I absolutely love Cecil Lewis I love him so much so he um he basically joined the Royal Flying car when he was a teenager he lied about his age to get in there um which yeah it it's very it's it's well it's common um a lot of as we know a lot of people did that they couldn't wait to get in this idea in their head of war being exciting and fun and we'll we'll it'll be already it'll be fine sort of thing.
SPEAKER_01They didn't realize what was actually waiting for them on the other side. So yeah he he lied about his age to get in and he was credited with eight victories it was a bit more modest than Ricktoff in in Manic. But what he was known for is this book that he wrote called Sagittarius Rising which I actually have here. And it's a fantastic and I actually have page um ready to to read from um not a long passage but just a little bit because I feel like it sums up his it's wonderful. So he was from a middle age um so he was from a middle class background um and he was always interested in aircraft as a young boy he would build model airplanes um he would go watch them fly so it was kind of always ingrained into him um and so yeah he was 17 when he enlisted in the RFC um and he we did the pilot training program and then went and became a pilot and and his whole life was then dominated by military duties. He even went back up in uh the Second World War in the RAF as a wing commander um so he was flying again so that's and what I like the the contrast between Manic and Lewis is while Lewis does talk about the very human cost uh the real the realities of warfare flying losing your friends empty chairs um he is always going back for it he's always going to do it do it again so I wonder how much of it did affect him and how much you know for him to go back up again how much of that sense of duty and kingdom did he put forward um to enlist again when the Second World War came along and that's that's fascinating um and I I guess it kind of goes back to the sort of public school teachings um from the age back then when the people read you know King Solomon's minds and there was this idea that the British man can go and um can conquer territory and can conquer anything he puts his mind to and um but interestingly like a really side note the the sort of empire hero as they were known um they were said to be it sort of intimidated by women so they went and conquered all this territory and yet women were the the thing that they were they were nervous about the most and that's I find that so fascinating. But yeah so you have this sort of overarching idea of duty to king and country and I wonder how much of that governed Lewis's choices throughout everything that he did. So yeah so the um yeah so the most important contribution that Lewis made was this book Sagittarius Rising and it was published in 1936 and it became one of the like classic memoirs of the First World War Aviation and it's kind of up there with different books like um Winged Victory by Yeats. So that's a fiction story and it's a it's a long fiction story. I'm actually still reading it but it's a long fiction story but it's based loosely on Yeats' time serving in the RFC and his own experiences and it's a really good sort of primary source I'd say um despite it being a fictional story. And then of course you've got Arthur Goldley's No Parachute as well and Legot on a side note as well I mean the whole like no parachute thing I think that's insane. I mean the the air ministry decided that not allowing pilots to have parachutes would basically help the the fighting spirit if you knew that you didn't have an escape you would either recover the aircraft or you wouldn't be getting out of it. So if you have no chance of escape you would try your best to survive and you would try your best to get home and therefore the aircraft couldn't fall into the hands of the enemy. So they didn't give them a parachute but plus it was also quite bulky and stuff as well so it would be a bit difficult. So that's that's quite fascinating and that's you can see that in in Goldley's uh story as well he kind of mentions it in his in his book he mentions that um but for Sagittarius Rising it's it's very valued because it describes fear excitement exhaustion uh colleagues as well you know the sort of friendship between colleagues um and Lewis actually went on to set up the BBC which is he was one of the founding members of the BBC which is quite interesting. But yeah he did this interview in the 1960s which you can actually still see uh today there's some corner of YouTube um and he talks about his time and it's actually a really good accomplishment to Sagittarius Rising and because it's nice to actually see a face to to the book um and hear his voice as well and the way that he talks I love the way that people talked back then. I wish we could still talk like it today I really do. But yeah so so there's a passage on page 59 um and it talks about sort of fatalism and Lewis talks about death quite a lot um because obviously he's surrounded by it but this one really struck out to me the most says friends mess companions would go out on patrol and never come back Archie, hostile aircraft and machine gun fire from the ground all took theirs hole. As the months went by it seemed only a matter of time until your turn came. You sat down to dinner faced by the empty chairs of men you had laughed with and joked with at lunch and they were gone. The next day some new men would laugh and joke from those chairs and some might be lucky to stick it out for a bit and some chairs would be empty again very soon and so it would go on. And that is so sobering. Yeah it's so sobering and the way he writes it is just so casual. Well it comes across just so matter of fact and for historians using his book I guess it kind of shows that pragmatism behind the pilot's sort of thinking at this time just it's it is a matter of fact. So you kind of you wait for your turn you wait for your friend's turn you know do you take things for granted do you form friendships? Well obviously they they did obviously they did and how does that impact you and you can see through Manic how McCuddin's death impacted him um so he also talks about the reality of flying and how the aircraft were fragile unreliable it was cold up there I mean when you're up in those sort of altitudes you can get frostbite and a lot of pilots came back with frostbite there's actually a story of a pilot who he went and um he was changing the camera but he his glove was getting all a bit caught up in everything so he decided to take his glove off and when he you know did what he needed to do put the glove back on got down and his fingers frostbite he got frostbite had to have them amputated um literally because he took his glove off just to fix this the stuff and that is the reality that they faced and I mean the scarf that Lord Flashheart wears it's um it's not just for show it's not just for decoration it's it is to keep it's to keep the neck warm and it's also to stop chafing as well because when you see on the maternity jackets they're quite they come like up here. And when you're looking around you can see that and you that that will hurt that will chafe that will absolutely chafe you your neck so they put these silk scarves on so they can look around um no problem and it becomes sort of visual culture which is again which is so fascinating we'll probably touch on in a second. But yeah and then obviously the face threat so basically Lewis goes into all of this sort of detail the psychological strain the threats um the friends that would eat breakfast with you and then not be there by the evening and how that that impacts you he talks about fatalism um and just kind of um interestingly in the same passage he goes on to actually say that you would actually volunteer for for dangerous missions because why the hell not you know your friends are dying you your turn's coming so you might as well just volunteer for the dangerous missions and take unnecessary risks and just just believe that your luck would continue um because once a couple of people have been killed then that illusion just disappears and you can see that with Rick Toffin after he was shot in the ear he obviously came face to face with the possibility of dying um and that changed his behaviour too. And again going back to that sort of young man sort of thing they were all just young young boys. Then he also talks about courage as well and he argues that courage um wasn't fearlessness it's like the most that most pilots were actually afraid um but the what's the the courageous thing about flying is continuing knowing risks so courage that is actually going along with something or continuing on with something even though you know that this might end up bad and he was like he he and that theme is seen throughout his his story as well his book um so yeah that's and then he also talks about the sort of more realistic things he's you know he says oh it's not just flying it's it's not just about flying um you know a lot of well it's not just about fighting up in the air a lot of the flying is all about reconnaissance it's all about photography artillery spotting so it's kind of like mundane tasks day-to-day tasks that you would get not something fancy that they'd show in the cinema or like what we watch on Top Gun where every mission that Top Gun has seems to be about fighting somebody that is modern warfare so it might be a bit different then. But yeah it's it's very much a realistic account that Lewis provides um as modern people um on what warfare was like back then and that's why as a figure he's so important.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely and he's obviously made a big impression on yourself so that's fantastic as well. Yeah I I absolutely I love him absolutely okay looking back at the conflict as a whole um you know how did the First World War transfer military aviation? I sort of answered that anyway haven't you at the beginning but and it's last and impact obviously as we know when we get to World War II things accelerate really quickly to that point where you've like you said you've got a spit well we had a conversation before we went on about spitfires and you know things like that.
SPEAKER_01So you know just explain a little bit how it changes and shapes the way that we um you know fight each other I suppose yeah so gosh I mean there was a huge leap um towards the end you get formation flying and then you see that throughout the Second World War as well a lot of formation flying going on so as war develops you understand how different things impact um you know impact strategies and um and tactics going forward and that carries on throughout even today um in today's war. And I've recently just um written an article for the Royal Aeronautical Society all about drone warfare and what constitutes as an ace in today's modern air combat. Sticking it from a very neutral point because honestly I'm still undecided but I basically wanted to explore you know recently the RAF well the the Ministry of Defence published this um press release about how these um the counter drone um unit have become aces the five of them have become being made aces for shooting down um Iranian drones and um people were up in arms in the comment section saying no it should only be dualists it should only be dog fights it should only be human versus human and like it was in World War II and World War I but I don't know if people have taken into account that we did have flakaces and we also did have balloon busters in World War I. So everything was categorized even back then. So yes we did have the dog fights but we also had people just shooting down as more as much as they could and we like I said we have the flakaces we have the uh the balloon busters we also have the fighter pilots doing their thing and back then you had um like um what was his name Joseph Berry he was credited with 59 and a half um victories for shooting down um v1s so and that was categorized as a different as a separate victory category than duelist and fighter pilot dogbites so I in this article I kind of examine that and I look about how we're adapting our own fighting aircraft to have um like for example the the strike eagle they've just completely um overhauled this aircraft to be able to take down uh drones um and it's it's yeah it's it's an after I don't know when it's going to be out exactly but when it is out um I'll probably pop it online and stuff and have a read and see what you think. But it it kind of goes to show how warfare is completely always modernizes yes throughout as we become more technical and towards the very end of the article I meant I ask the question what happens when the drones start fighting back at the moment they yeah they have roots and and whatnot. But what happens when AI can actually think for it and what happens when it can they can fight buzz? Because there's already simulations taking place where they're having fights a Go up against AI fighter pilots and the AI are winning all the always. Um and that's terrifying.
SPEAKER_00So it's funny we should say that because I saw something on YouTube yesterday about this uh I think it was um Swedish and yeah, the Swedish Air Force have got planes that can fly their self. And obviously you got drones, but like I saw something about that, yeah. I don't know what it was now. It's really strange.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's it's yeah, so it's like how how far are we gonna take the you know how far are people willing to go with the argument that it should be human versus human? Because at one point it's not going to be human versus human, it's gonna be human versus machine or machine versus machine. So when what do we do? So I kind of then sort of examine. Well, look, this was a press release put out by the Ministry of Defense. Back in the day, we had to have ACEs to create this narrative that the general public could understand. Because the general public don't understand shy heap drones, they don't understand C UAS units, they don't understand um drone warfare, or how there's a Ukrainian um Yak 52 that's that's now taking down uh drones, the years of work in agricultural stuff. Um they don't they don't they don't know about that, they don't understand it, um, or they don't care for it. What they want to know is are we winning? Who's winning? What side is winning? What's going on? And the best way to do that is if you hand a bunch of people over and say this is the face of everything going on. Well done, these people. Um, we can tell the story through these people. And I believe that's what the Ministry of Defence did through giving these people um the calling them aces. And the fact that they didn't label them individually also goes to show a leap in technology. Um, because nowadays, you know, if you have somebody's name, what else can you find out about them? So if they if they named these these lads or lasses or whoever it was, if they named these aces, the brand new aces, um what can we find out about them? What can the enemy find out about them? So now there's also a question of um protection, of security. Um so and yeah, and really who gets who gets the kill, really? Because it's a team of people working behind this machine that shot down the drone. So who really is the, you know, and that's kind of like where the whole flat thing units and stuff come into it and whatnot. Um, but yeah, I feel like that's one of the lasting impacts and legacies of calling of Ace warfare and stuff, it serves as that narrative, and then into modern warfare, then we can discuss sort of using drones and people versus people, people versus machines and stuff, and it's terrifying. But then I guess on like the sort of last point is last point, I guess on like the last point is you have um visual culture as well. People have aviator sunglasses, people have bomber jackets. I'm pretty sure last year in autumn I saw in Primark Rita Aura had this winter cap. It was called a winter cap, but I swear on my life it was a flying helmet. Like it looked so much like a flying helmet. Um, and then yeah, you get like the sort of scars and stuff as well. And a lot of people like you go Google and you type in like Top Gun Halloween costume, and it's all the fighter pilot stuff. Um, and it's all like the the Maverick sort of thing. Um that's that's like so fascinating how it's how it's still continued up into today. And every time I go to some sort of aviation event, I can guarantee nine times out of ten, most of the pilots there are wearing um like cheap wool jackets or bomber jackets and flying jackets and stuff. And fair enough, really, go for it. It's part of the it's part of the branding. Um, and that's again, it goes back into advertisement, it goes back into marketing, how people back then in the first world war marketed fighter pilots right up until now, and it's all of it comes down to that visual branding of the fighter pilot. Um, and that's I think that's one way how the legacy of World War One pilots remain today, like cemented in the visual culture today.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for explaining all of that, and that's fascinating. And what once the article comes out, please send me the link and I'll make sure it's in the podcast description as well. That's fantastic. So let's let's um talk about you for a minute, young lady, because you have been doing a fantastic job. And uh let's talk about your social media. Now, obviously, you you're you're on YouTube, you you're but um you're you're quite um prevalent on Instagram, aren't you? And you're producing some great stuff. And uh I see there there's something coming up on channel four, is that right? Is that this year? Uh yeah, August. How exciting, how exciting, and also I have got another slide at the end in a minute, which we'll talk about with something that you did uh recently and you got invited to, but let's let's talk about you for a minute and and you know, again, I know you said you started you know off with seeing a plane on a roundabout. And did you ever envision that you was gonna you know create this fantastic space for sharing your knowledge?
SPEAKER_01No, no, not at all. Um I just I don't know, it's uh it's a weird one because I I literally I say to my friends, it's like method writing, you know, like method acting, but it's method writing, and I was like, please Lord, may I never ever write a murder book because that I don't want to be involved in that. Um but basically um I know I didn't really think I'd ever be flying, and I didn't ever think I'd be going to museums or my Instagram would grow as big as it has. I mean, that's so many people that are so interested in aviation history, and I didn't really think there was much of a market out there, and that sounds so incredibly ignorant of me, but until you're actually in you know, in in it, you don't know about it if that makes sense. Um but yeah, I mean I I had friends in university who were um well who were now fighter pilots, uh they're now over at Lossie, and I met them at Linton, and um they were fascinating people. And one thing that always stuck out to me is that they always said, um, which is so so cringy and so typical, um, but they always said to me that um if they don't have an ego that they will die. So but it's always stuck to me because I always then when I came across the sort of idea of the fighter pilot in World War One, being this these cocky young lads and risk-taking young lads, that makes sense all of a sudden. This attitude makes sense. Um and then I know that's a bit of a tangent, but I suppose because of my experience knowing knowing those guys, um, to suddenly now like go flying myself, obviously not in the capacity that they do, thank God. Um, but going flying myself and being going to all these different museums and going to different like old buildings that were once messes and and once accommodation blocks and once um ballrooms and stuff, that's fascinating. Um, seeing like I feel like I've got a good perspective between the modern seeing the modern pilots and how they are now to the old pilots and kind of being able to bridge bridge that somewhere and show that through my platforms um to people who are watching the videos and also just keep that memory alive. When I was at Duckswood recently, um there was a commentator and he he mentioned that the first world war was seen as being irrelevant now, and that's so sad. That is so sad. I mean, it's as each generation, it makes sense though, as each generation comes and goes, you know, it's the same as like so my answer. So it's funny you say about the American Civil War because in the War of Independence, my ancestor was um a lieutenant colonel, he was a colonel for the Americans and then switched to the English. Um, and he like he's my ninth great-grandfather, and um he yeah, like I do I I know of him, but I don't know the significance of his role. That makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Well, there's another rabbit hole that you could go down, you know. I mean, uh, if you get time with everything, actually.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I would love to because he's he's he's got his own Wikipedia page before me as well, can you believe? Fantastic.
SPEAKER_00No, honestly, your enthusiasm and your um passion for this is fantastic. And look, yeah, okay, they might say it feels like it might be a little bit irrelevant now, World War I and everything, but no, you someone like yourself is bringing it to the forefront and you're bringing it to the younger generation and you're keeping that that memory alive, and that's what it's all about, you know, is and that's what these platforms allow uh people like us to do, you know, is to share those fantastic stories. So, you know, I want to thank you for all the hard work that you put into it, you know, and it's fantastic. And I'll make sure obviously there's links to uh all of your uh content um in the uh podcast description. But just before we finish up, I knew a couple of people also went so um there's a guy who does World War One uh recipes, Pete Pete's Living History, he's on TikTok. I love that guy. Um, we've done a couple of episodes together. But how was it getting invited to this uh uh premiere?
SPEAKER_01Oh well, um I yeah, I was so so happy, I was so excited. Um it's it's it was so good. Um, it was at the Imperial War Museum in London, which have a huge gun outside.
SPEAKER_02Oh, is that the best bit?
SPEAKER_01The best bit was when I went into the uh into the sort of main foyer area and like you had all the airphans strangling down from the ceiling. And I was like, my friend who I went to I went with um Charlie from History Magpie, and um he he was like they must be so heavy. And I was like, Charlie, I was like, they're empty on the inside, they're just a shell. It's just it's just a shell hanging because that would be that would be yeah, that would be heavy. Um and it was just so nice to be like to feel like you're in your element. Um I loved it, but then the event itself was really nice. Um, people were so friendly. A lot what made me laugh is I don't apart from Charlie, I don't think I heard another northern accent ever like in that room at all. And a lot of people were asking me if I was from Scotland, and I was like, you know, the Northeast exists, everybody like them on um but it was so good, and people were so friendly, and um the documentary as well that's out, that's already out, and uh that was good to watch. That was so interesting. Um yeah, that was so so interesting, and uh the way that it was presented, it felt more of a narrative, like I said earlier, about people easier following the narrative more easily than sort of like statistics and facts. Um it's it's it was uh yeah, that's exactly how it was done. And they used this archive footage, um, which again kind of made it look like a movie. And I definitely I don't know that much about World War II, I really don't, embarrassingly. Um, but I was able to to kind of understand and pick up context and stuff from the bits and fill in the gaps of knowledge from bits that I do and did know, and that documentary was so useful. But the event itself, I mean, you had a singer, a 1940 singer, you had food, you had drinks. Um so yeah, it was I can't complain. I had food, I had drinks, I had company. I can't really complain.
SPEAKER_00Fantastic. Well, I'm I'm glad you got to go and experience that. That's fantastic. Um, yeah, no, that's great. And uh again, you know, um I just want to thank you for giving up your time to come and speak to me, and I will get you know right, Kelsey. Um but um all that is left to say at this point is thank you very much.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for having me. Um it's been really good to just to be able to just go on a tangent and chat because a lot of my friends just eyes glaze over.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to my world. Welcome to my world. That is why I started a podcast, and that is why I I want to you know give people like yourself that opportunity to just sit there and talk for an hour about what you love. Because again, my friends do exactly the same, they go to sleep. But all that is left to say at this point, uh Kelsey, is cheers.
SPEAKER_01Oh thank you so much for having me. It's been so good.
