Amy (00:03.512)
Good afternoon. Welcome back to another episode of Divorce at Altitude. I'm Amy Gosha and I'm here today with Megan Flanagan, who is an LLP. She's doing some great work. Megan, how are you doing today? Good. for listeners on Divorce at Altitude, we've had some previous episodes about LLPs. most of you probably know that I am the vice chair of the Oversight Committee for the
Megan (00:17.602)
Good, how are you?
Amy (00:32.168)
LLPs. So I've been working on this program for a long time. There's been on several updates. We haven't had a podcast episode in a while. So today I thought it would be interesting and really great to have Megan on to tell us not only kind of some of the updates with what she's doing and what her firm is doing, but also her practice, but also just, you know, how the program is rolling out, you know, in reality. So with that, Megan, if you could
Tell the listeners, we know that you're a licensed legal paraprofessional. but what is your background? How did you become an LLP? And then what are you doing now?
Megan (01:09.216)
so I'm kind of like a long journey into the LLP. So I originally, first of all, started about 22 years ago in family law as a paralegal. so I do have my bachelor's degree in criminal justice and I do have a certificate in paralegal studies. But very early on, I think quite a few years ago, there was discussion about what the LLP program would be. And the original discussion was really not what it is today. So it has definitely evolved.
So it was originally like, hey, we can go to initial status conferences, we can sign notice to set, you know, hearings. We were kind of like a little bit limited. But then as it started to grow, kind of what the role was going to be through. So along with my coworkers, so I have another LLP here, we're both of the first class, we decided we wanted to go ahead and do it. So that's just something we wanted to do. Got with our firm administrator and the partners. They were very supportive of us and
From there on, they started making sure they were building the LLP into this firm. So we have associates, we have partners, and we have LLPs. We currently have three now and one that's testing in November. And what we do at our firm is we do a lot of co-counseling. So with an LLP, we have that limited license to practice law. So there are certain areas that can come into family law that we cannot litigate. It doesn't mean we're knocked completely off the case, but it means we cannot litigate that.
That single action or give advice on that. Like we can't give advice on a criminal matter they have that may be associated to a protection order and they want to know what to do about that. So we co counsel here. So our clients never have to go retain a new attorney. They have an attorney that pops in, can answer those questions, can handle that actual area outside of our scope. So I think that that's something that we offer that other firms don't. There are a few firms here in the springs where I'm located.
that do have LLPs that are either running their own firm or they are doing their own cases on their own. I do mine on my own until it is outside of my scope. So that's kind of where I'm at.
Amy (03:12.864)
Yeah, it's really interesting to see kind of the evolution. You know, like I, for instance, my paralegalist sitting for the exam in November as well. but it's so neat to see kind of the progression of how firms have implemented LLPs, but also how some LLPs have gone out on their own. I've also heard some LLPs that are on the partnership track, like within their firms. so it's really interesting to see that. And I know El Paso County that
There's a strong the LLPs, like you're very collaborative, like you have a strong presence. You do a lot with the, you know, judges there. one question I think that practic you know people are wondering is, you know, as you've seen this program kind of roll out, do you see that you're getting a lot of clients and your own caseload? do you feel like it's really helping people? You know, what is your kind of anecdotal experience been there?
Megan (04:12.398)
I think in some ways it's definitely helping. I think the spirit is there. You know, we're trying to help that middle ground of people that don't have fifty thousand dollars to litigate. they can't even like get a retainer together for ten to fifteen thousand for an attorney because I mean when you look across Colorado, the hourly rates of attorneys can go anywhere from three hundred to five hundred dollars an hour. If that adds up quick. So I do see the ones coming in that genuinely need the help, a lot of them, just to be honest.
just don't even understand the process. And we know that there are Sherlocks that are in the courthouse there to help, but they can't give that basic legal advice of like, you should ask for spousal maintenance on your petition or you should make sure you're claiming separate property on your sworn financial statement. So I do get a lot of those. but I've also seen on the other side of it, which sometimes is a little bit, I don't want to say frustrating, it's interesting. I get people that want to consult with me because I'm cheaper.
So I have gotten those. but I have had some discussions with them, like just because I'm cheaper, and one of the things that we talk about at the firm is a real team effort, is just because I'm cheaper doesn't mean I should be the one doing it. We go with who is best for that actual case, who's got the best experience, who can do that with the best, like be more efficient. Just because I'm I'm right now at 265 an hour.
I can have a co-counsel who has so much experience litigating and she may be 465 an hour, but she's gonna be more efficient. And you I think when you look at it as a whole, it's it's better for them. But I do get the both where I see like this person couldn't afford attorney without me or somebody that just doesn't want to pay for an attorney. So it's an interesting mix, I think.
Amy (05:51.606)
Yeah, that's interesting. And just for listeners, you had mentioned the Sherlock. for people that's self re represented litigant coordinators, that was kind of one of the issues is that there were so many, you know, we have 70%, let's just say or more, of people that are representing themselves. And so there was an initiative to put people, you know, representatives in the courthouse that could answer like basic procedural questions, but really
couldn't give legal advice. So then we had the LLP program come out where you can you have a limited license to practice law and can provide you know, that legal advice, which I think is, you know, very, very helpful. What percentage of cases are you seeing like as an LLP that like end up settling outside of court going to mediation or like have you had to do some court appearances?
Megan (06:44.13)
Had to do court appearances. pretty much I feel like they're the same as how the attorneys feel sometimes. I've had a couple of cases go to hearing that didn't need to go to hearing. Unfortunately, you get an opposing party or an opposing counsel that is aggressive or maybe doesn't have experience in the courtroom or in El Paso County, because we are a little bit different here. we get that a lot where we have to say in El Paso County, we actually do it this way. We're a little bit of the wild, wild west.
so I do have a good amount of people that do settle for the ones that I get that are they really just don't have the money for an attorney. They are divorced, either kids are completely grown or they've been separated for five years. Like the assets are very easy. They just need to walk through the process. They don't know what a quadro is. They don't know how to do the military division order. But they're not high asset, they're not high conflict. Those ones I feel like if they're easier to settle, and then using my experience as a paralegal, I also know not just.
that knowledge of law and my experience with the process, I have watched attorneys talk to clients my entire career. And there are a lot of things I see that I know I can explain to them and make them feel better and explain the process and what's next. And that's very helpful for them because I get a lot of people that do comment, unfortunately, you know, they'll do intakes or consultations and they're kind of getting beaten around the bush like talking in legalies and they're like, I don't know what that means. Like what does that mean? And so I have
try to explain things in more layman's terms because I look at them and I think this is hopefully the first and last time they're ever going to be in this court. Like hopefully they're not getting divorced or going through custody stuff. We all do know that custody cases that go once a year for a contested issue. But you know, I have settled a lot of them and I do I do enjoy it. I think that's probably something I enjoy more than anything is settling in mediation because really, you know, you're saving them so much time and frustration.
you try to tell people that like you may have a good point for court, they may have a good point for court, but the judge has never met you before and you're gonna have two hours.
Amy (08:42.481)
Yeah, can yeah, mediation is so great. It's just such a great tool that is ordered in every div or I should say most divorce cases. There's some cases, caveats where it wouldn't be appropriate, but it's just such a great opportunity to do what you can do and can't do like within the the like the courtroom. So to come up with creative solutions. I think one thing that would be helpful, Megan, just for the listeners is
We had some like significant rule changes that came out. what are the can you just explain in general like what you can do now as an LLP in court versus what like what's different now for you? And how does that expand what you're able to do for people?
Megan (09:31.138)
Well, you know, there were quite a few tweaks, but the biggest change is now that we're allowed to examine and cross examine witnesses and enter evidence. So we're allowed to actually do that. Previously, before then, we were really there to support the clients. We were not allowed to examine, cross examine witnesses, which include our own client. They are they are considered our witness. So we were not allowed to do that. We basically walked them through, sat there. The judicial bench was very, very kind because they were allowing.
our clients to confer with us when they got a little tripped up on what their next steps were. But now we're allowed to actually basically do a full hearing on our own. and that has created a lot of issues in terms of us first few cohorts did not take a test on the rules of evidence. So my understanding is November is going to have the rules of evidence. So what we've done
And really, it's not just El Paso County. really, all of the LLPs, what is so great about us is we are such a supportive community that we have come up with our own stuff to learn. We have done our own rules, rules of evidence courses, mock trials. We've done objections. We're actually gonna do another CLE with some of the judges down here to give us tips and to help us out and do like where they're gonna pretend that we're giving them evidence. So they're so helpful. But that's where it's different for us is we kind of got thrown the
You're never gonna examine a witness to guess what, we didn't come December 2025, you're up. so that that is the biggest change. But the comment that I heard a lot from the bench, because I'm also on the LLP committee for the El Paso County Bar Association, is that they actually felt like, especially in those cases where they have the pro se parties, they have the LLP, that us not being able to just say what the evidence is, to just ask the questions was actually slowing it down.
So they felt like we were more benef we should be used more beneficially.
Amy (11:25.326)
That's what I was wondering. And I think that was the intent when the Supreme Court, you know, like adopted the the changes was to provide more seamless help to people instead of slowing the process down. And so have you, in your experience, Megan, so far have you seen that happen?
Megan (11:43.912)
seen it. Slow it down or just get it.
Amy (11:46.27)
Make it better. Yeah.
Megan (11:47.894)
I've definitely seen it better. And then we do our LLPs, at least for El Paso County, we do a monthly check-in via Zoom. You know, obviously we're not giving case details, but we do talk about our experiences in front of certain judges, what our thought processes were. And this includes like what we did wrong, what we were feeling like we did not do the evidence correctly. We how well we're trying to help each other, but I've definitely seen it make it much more seamless.
I just did a final orders with another LLP on the other side. And I do appreciate that the bench itself is very, very patient and knowledgeable and they know that we are doing this for the first time. Obviously they're not letting anything slide, but there are times like we're just like a baby attorney where we're like, hold on, let me look at my rules of evidence book. Like let me just, you know, this is an objection that I was not prepared for. I thought I was. So they're very kind in that that sense. They're not we're not getting a lot of move it along.
But I think I've also been lucky 'cause most of the judges I've been in front of are very, very pro L L P and they really just want at the end of the day to issue orders that are best for the family. They're not out here to basically screw someone off. You know, they're here to make the family better because they're not gonna be a family unit.
Amy (12:59.406)
Well and I know from talking to judicial officers, like judges, magistrates, that part of the, you know, issue sometimes is just getting the information that they need to be able to make the decision that they need. And that's really hard when you have two people coming into court not represented and not understanding like what the judge or magistrate needs. So I think, yeah, having LLPs be able to
get the information organized and in front of them if they, you know, can't settle it, like really helps. So yeah.
Megan (13:31.086)
Yeah, and I do a lot of unbundled cases too, which they're really just here because they don't know like they don't know about hearsay. They don't know about getting somebody to testify. There are so many cases that go in front of the court and the court has to exclude evidence that's in a way valid. DHS is involved. There was a police report. There's domestic violence, but the court has to go with the evidence in front of them and a lot of these
These parties don't know that. And I think that that has been so helpful. Sometimes we just walk them through like, hey, this is when your witness and exhibit list is due. Hey, this is what you're gonna need to do on that. If you're gonna need to appear via WebEx, you're gonna need to ask the court. So there is a lot of where they just don't know how to present their case and get that information out. They think they're gonna stand up and just, you know, do a whole little monologue and
Provide a bunch of documents, the court's gonna take them, but then you get some of them, unfortunately, get an opposing counsel that's objecting to everything. It's their right to, it's not valid evidence, it's not, you know, we don't have somebody to testify to. But I think those cases are really sad at the end of the day because there are just children involved. And those are the cases where we really need to be helping them. So the best interests of the children are what the court is looking at.
Amy (14:41.026)
Yeah, that's great. And I know that El Paso County has been really good. You guys have done a great job down in El Paso County with the LLPs having an open dialogue with the with the judges and the magistrates, which we're trying to implement, you know, everywhere else. And I do believe that the like Colorado community of LLPs is very, very strong. And, you know, like through the Bar Association, we do the LLP practicum, like
I've been at that every year. This last year was excellent. Like having judges, attorneys, experts, LLPs, you know, like collaborate and practice, like I think is awesome. And so one thing that has come top of mind, at least on the oversight committee, is just talking about making sure that you know firms are really implementing it in the smartest way possible. Because I think that some LLPs might have
you know, like have gone out on their own, which is great as well. But I think that you know, we're gonna try to put together a round table to collaborate to make sure that, you know, firms, solo practitioners, even LLPs that are part of like Colorado Legal Services, that we're all collaborating to make sure that we're implementing it in the smartest way possible.
Megan (15:59.894)
Yeah, and I agree. And I think a lot of the inflammation like people need to realize like a l I came in, I got my L L P, I had twenty years of experience. Twenty years of experience as a paralegal.
Not as an LLP. So really at my firm, they're treating us like they should be baby attorneys. Like they wouldn't take a baby attorney and just turn them loose. You know, they're here to mentor. And I think that's also very important to have attorney mentors, to have other LLP mentors. But it's hard because like I'm in the first class, so there's no LLP above me. So I'm lucky to be in a firm
Where they're really wanting to educate us, they're wanting to use us correctly, but they're also not wanting to put us into a situation where we could do something and misstep because this is our license. And I think all of us are very aware of that as the LLP. there has been some confusion with attorneys. I don't know what the confusion is, but I hear the comment a lot. They think we have some kind of different license. Like we're like, we're just like you. If we malpractice, we have the same consequences. Like we have to do that. And the best advice I've been given is.
Just because I can do it doesn't mean I should do it. If I don't feel like I can take that case, I ethically have to say no. And I think that's really important for the LLPs to know that it doesn't make you bad. Eventually you're gonna get there. But if you feel like it's above your head, you should say no, you need to get an attorney. It doesn't mean it's outside your scope. It could be this is too complicated. I think you need to consult with counsel.
Amy (17:22.934)
Yeah. So when you became an LLP, what was the most eye-opening like parts of your job as an LLP that were different wearing the LLP hat versus paralegal? And I think that can also go into the question I've been hearing, you know, how do you differentiate? Like, do you ever serve as a paralegal in a case versus your hat as LOP? And how do you make sure there's not confusion with opposing counsel and with or opposing party or and client?
Megan (17:49.472)
Yeah, so I do do both. I do still do paralegal cases, especially for the high asset. I do like the jurisdiction cases that are outside of my scope as an LLP. So I like to be on those because I have experience in the paral paralegal realm. that has been probably one of the harder things in this transition is is dancing with my different hats. the best way that I differentiate is for sweat do know my cases, but we have everything.
sort of labeled a certain way. So we know what ones that I'm the LLP on, we know what ones I'm not. If I am the LLP on the case, I have entered my appearance as an LLP. If not, you know, I have the attorney on the case and they are very quick to be like, Megan is my paralegal on this case. And so they know. And I think we're a small community here. So a lot of them kind of know what's going on. But one of the harder things that I just never even thought about, like to be honest, is how exhausting it must be to be an attorney. Because like
As a paralegal, I'm billing all day, just being like, did a sworn financial statement, process this order, set that out, set this phone call. And I multitask like crazy. But when you go to a hearing for four hours or do a mediation for a couple hours, it's so like it takes a lot out of you and you're really having to think all like the whole time. I did an oral ruling last week that was two and a half hours. And I don't know why it was two and a half hours, but
I had to sit there and take notes still to follow up questions. You've really got to be on the ball. And afterwards my brain was full of information. So I think that was interesting seeing that other side of it, or also why, you know, I was so important as the paralegal because I have my own paralegal. And there are times that I'm like, yeah, this is why I understand why they want things done like a certain way and at a certain time, because it's frustrating. So it's it's interesting seeing that other side of it.
Amy (19:30.136)
Right. So in cases, Megan, where you're you've entered your appearance as L L P do you serve as you so you will not serve as a paralegal in th that capacity or there are some c okay, so you'll have
Megan (19:42.22)
your Yeah because I I have my own paralegal and I think that there's a lot of tasks you know we don't want to be billing the client for that higher amount of money so I usually use her the legal assistant it is nice because I do know my file and that's the comment I've gotten from mediators like my gosh the LLPs just know their file because they're used to being the paralegal and we like really know every single document in there. so I think that helps out with the client but for basically the you know if we're doing a notice to set ISC or we're doing any of that kind of stuff I just use my paralegal.
And we're very upfront when we are retained. We also have our clients look at the LLP scope because they need to consent to our scope. So they'll have the full scope before they even decide to consult with me. They know who I am, what they can what I can and cannot do. and we kind of put out our rates all in our client engagement agreements so they don't have any questions as to who's doing what.
Amy (20:33.612)
Yeah, one thing, you know, to look towards the future. I know we're what two, two and a half years, you know, like this will be the what the third exam coming up in November. like looking towards the future, I think there have been discussions about expanding the scope of LLP to other practice areas or possibly, you know, changing the name because there's confusion about are you a paralegal or are like what
You know, like what is your license? What do you do? Do you find that people are confused about what LLP is? And what are your thoughts about expanding kind of the service to other areas in the law?
Megan (21:14.97)
people do get confused because LLP a lot of types they think I'm a business. So like I'm just a liability partnership. So I get that a lot. I do find that if I explain to a client or an opposing party or anybody that I'm like, you know what I'm like? I'm like between a a a a doctor and a nurse. I'm the nurse practitioner in the middle. That they seem to understand.
but I do get a lot of the confusion. And you really have to correct your own clients and everybody because I want to make sure they're not calling me an attorney. Cause they'll be like my attorney. I'm like, okay, you know, just make sure I'm not your attorney, I'm your LLP. Yeah. Yeah. And so then I also am excited for the possibility of it being expanded. I know Arizona has had some expansion. They've had some good experience with it. I I know there's been some discussion on landlord tenant possibly. I do think.
Amy (21:49.39)
Yeah.
Megan (22:06.894)
probate in the smaller areas of probate could be helpful in terms of like filing for a simple estate, that kind of stuff. There's so many people, especially people with elderly, you know, and there's only so many probate pro bono services that can get into. but yeah
Amy (22:22.776)
Talking about probate, I think because of how Colorado is set up with probate, because we we have so many that are part of the informal process, you know, not the formal process. Whereas it, I think if you were if Colorado was set up like another state that is very much like it's hard to get through the probate process, and that's why people do a lot of trust. I think Colorado, I think, is ripe for maybe expanding it, like you said, to maybe informal probate and maybe some like
general like business startup entity documents, like you know, I don't know, state planning documents, like directors, you know, but I think that there is such a need for that. you know, but I think the biggest thing that has been great about Colorado is the fact that we've had it in family law. Like we're making sure that it's running really well. you know, and then we can expand it, you know, like when it makes sense. But I think the biggest like
success in Colorado, at least from my perspective and why other states are looking at us, or just we have like a we have so many licensed professionals. You know, like there's like what a hundred and I I don't know the current number. I should know that, but it's is it like
Megan (23:42.196)
Pretty high. I think we've like eighty. Yeah, 'cause I think we surpassed a couple of states. I'm pretty sure we're like either neck and neck or above Arizona now.
Amy (23:51.326)
Exactly. So I mean it's just amazing to see that. you know, like a you were part of the first class, a lot of the first class people I think were experienced family law paralegals or professionals within the family law practice. What are your thoughts on how to build like a pipeline, you know, for this profession?
Megan (24:12.756)
That's actually a super interesting question because I also sit on the board for Pikes Peak State College Paralegal Advisory Board. So, you know, that's something we've discussed with that school in particular. it's hard because there is that divide between, you know, you're getting your paralegal like certificate or you're starting your job as a paralegal, but the requirements are you either have your bachelor's or your JD, which I think if you have your JD, you should just go to law school, but
But and then you have to have a certain amount of hours and all this stuff. It's I I think the the hard part is a lot of people that go into the program to become a paralegal are in need of having funds soon. They don't have like the funds to just wait and then do it. And it's also like the LLP program is a little bit expensive. It's a like out of the box because you've got the classes, you've got the exam, it can add up quickly.
Only the ethics one is the one that's mandatory, but I highly recommend doing advanced family law and now advanced evidence. But those again are over $700. When we go to the school, there are a lot of single parents. So they really need to get into the workforce. And we're trying, you know, we're we've obviously been meeting with them. one of my coworkers, she is the president of Pikes Peak Paralegals, and she is the chair on the LLP committee down here.
She went over and is met with the school, I think, last Friday. So we're we're we've got stuff in the works to try to make this transition smooth and try to get more people doing it. there is some concern on our first class has so much experience, and now you're seeing some of these other people test. We just want to make sure that we're there to be mentors, that where they're working at, we're making sure that they are getting the education they need to really know family law. Cause I think it's like 1,500 hours if you have your bachelor's and
Forty five hundred hours if you don't with the ma I think it's like the majority family law, but it's a it family law is al always changing too. So there's that caveat. So it's it's in this it's an interesting question because there's so many factors going on right now out there.
Amy (26:16.672)
Yeah, one thing I'm working on, or the other hat I wear besides being like the vice chair, is I co-chair the education and outreach and w committee of the oversight LLP committee. And so one thing we're working on, I co-chair it with another LLP Kyle, who's in the metro area. but one thing we've been working on is really getting into the school districts, like Denver Public Schools, they have a navigator program and some
Apprenticeship programs, but I think just really establishing it as like a career path because it's a very viable, like you said, like in the medical profession, like a nurse practitioner. And you know, like we're in the early stages of that, but I feel like we're slowly, you know, building it. So in my mind, I feel like for the success of the program, that's one thing we need to really focus on is like that kind of pipeline.
Megan (27:10.222)
Yeah. And I know the school down here, they were making sure that the legal writing and research class was fitting the credentials for when somebody gets their bachelor's or their associates and they want to apply for the LLP because there's a certain amount of hours they have to do on the legal research and writing. So they have adjusted that class to fit that mold. So we are kind of moving along in that. And we're we are trying to join that state college with going to the actual
high schools down here as well. So we've been talking about how we can do that together.
Amy (27:41.238)
Yeah, no, that's great. Well, Megan, you're doing some great work and it sounds like you really have been a trailblazer like in the program, but also in El Paso County. kind of to talk to the public or to, you know, someone that's thinking about an L you know becoming an LLP. Do you have any kind of sage advice that you've gathered, you know, over your pro you know, since you've been licensed? Any kind of closing thoughts that you have?
Megan (28:10.36)
Say just not to give up on it. I think a lot of times I've seen just even paralegals coming out of the program and they interview with the first firm they've they've gone to. It's not always going to be a fit. So don't always feel like you know, okay, well, it's not gonna work out. Like, don't give up on that. Find basically your tribe and reach out to any of the LLPs, any of the paralegals. I think that Colorado itself has a lot of paralegal groups, they have LLP groups.
So just don't give up on that. It's it, you know, it's hard in all of Colorado to get a job right now, not just in this field. but I do feel like don't give up on that. And also for somebody who wants to go into the LLP that's family law, because we all became LLPs, we need paralegals. So we do need family law paralegals, and that'll help you move your way up. So there is definitely kind of a gap in that right now, where all the really experienced ones are LLPs, and so now we're needing.
new paralegals. And so to me I'm like, well, start from the ground up and we'll help you.
Amy (29:10.476)
Yeah, no, that's great. Well, thank you, Megan. It's a pleasure talking with you about your practice and your firm and where you're going. thank you for joining us today. And if listeners wanted to get a hold of you, what is the best way for them to contact you?
Megan (29:27.582)
me a call at my office. I'm with the Drexler Law Group down in Colorado Springs, or they can email me. It's Megan at Drexler.law.
Amy (29:35.608)
Great, thank you, Megan. Well hopefully you guys gain some insight on where the LLP program sits and to talk with one of the excellent practitioners out there doing the work today. thank you for joining us today for another episode at Divorce at Altitude.
Megan (29:52.93)
Thank you.
