Ryan Kalamaya (3s):
Hey everyone. I'm M Ryan Kalamaya and I am Amy. Gosha welcome to the divorce at altitude, a podcast on Colorado family law. Divorce is not easy. It really sucks. Trust me. I know, besides being an experienced divorce attorney M also a divorce client, whether you are someone considering divorce or a fellow family law attorney listening for weekly tips and insight into topics related to divorce co-parenting and separation in Colorado To come back to another episode of Divorce at Altitude, I am your co-host Ryan Kalamaya this week. I am joined by a New York city divorce lawyer, Evan Schein, who is also the host of a, his own podcast.

Ryan Kalamaya (50s):
Show me down and we'll get into that. But Evan, how you doing today? Ryan is

Evan Schein (53s):
Great to be with you. Thank you for having me on. I am doing really well

Ryan Kalamaya (56s):
For those a for our listeners who aren't familiar with New York city divorce lawyers. Can you give us a little background? How did you get into doing work in, in New York city?

Evan Schein (1m 6s):
A the question again, thank you for having me on is great to be with you in great to be with all your listeners. As you mentioned, was a divorce attorney on the head of litigation and a partner at my firm, Birkman, voce Newman, and shine in New York city. I specialize in divorce, it matrimonial law or my path to being a divorce attorney. It is somewhat unique. It's a path that I absolutely loves to talk about for the reasons I know we are going to get into. I started my career actually during law school, I was an NFL sports agent and on the weekends I would travel around the country, meet with prospective NFL players and their families. And I did that for about three, four years and absolutely loved. It was a tremendous experience. I made wonderful connections in the industry, in the business, and it really afforded me an opportunity to learn about the sports side of business and contracts and players and their families.

Evan Schein (1m 57s):
And ultimate wanted to transition into practicing law and a seamless and a natural transition for me was doing what I do now and what have been doing, you know, for the past 13 years, which is being at a divorce attorney in New York city. Something I absolutely loved, and I've been fortunate to be able to blend my two passions and what I learned, being an NFL sports agent to the practice of matrimonial and for me,

Ryan Kalamaya (2m 21s):
Well, I got to ask Kevin for those that have seen Tom cruise in Jeremy McGuire, or did you ever say, show me the money to any of your NFL clients?

Evan Schein (2m 31s):
A great question. I love it. I never sent show me the money, but I'll tell you a Jerry McGuire is one of my favorite all time movies. But, but, but here's the thing about that movie, which is great. Jerry Maguire, I mean, it's classic. It's the classic, your watching it as a young kid, you're growing up and you wanted to be Tom cruise, or you want to be Jerry Maguire. You want to have athletes and you want to have clients. But the reality of the sports agent business is something totally different. It's a grind you're on the road, your traveling, there's a lot of competition and yes, you are developing incredible relationships, but it's an industry that is ultra ultra competitive, and I've never sent to a client showing you the money, but it's a look at the end of the day for a lot of athletes. That's what it's about.

Evan Schein (3m 11s):
Yeah,

Ryan Kalamaya (3m 11s):
No, I understand that. I actually got invited to go to the super bowl way back. There was a prosecutor and I was fortunate enough to go. I saw the Patriots lose to the giants. I don't know if you're a giant or jets or a New York based Phan, but it was the super bowl. And I forget who it was, but he caught the ball against his head and, and it ended the Patriots perfect season. But I went to this party and met John Elway, who was a hero of mine. But more importantly, I met at an agent and he was there older and I was fascinated just asking them like, is this what you do? And cause it was a late night party. He was like, yeah, this is what I do. It's gets really old after a while. But John is a very valued client I'm sure, but he had to be there at midnight.

Ryan Kalamaya (3m 53s):
And I took away from a time from his family and the sexy side can also get kind of old after awhile. So a a hundred

Evan Schein (3m 59s):
Percent re they write I'm smiling because I am a giants fan. I was actually at that Superbowl as well. David Tyrie that catch your lives in my mind. And for the past, I mean, however many years it's been 10 plus years. Those were the glory days for the giants, Eli Manning and beating the Patriots. There was a great sight to see it, but you make such a great point in your right. That's the nature of the business and it's become even more competitive. And it's at a site at a mind it's, you know, and if you are not there with your player or another agent is, but another agent has looking to move it on your territory. Another agents looking to make headway is with your client. So it's a very competitive business and watching in the past year or so, or a trend that everybody's seeing, a lot of athletes are choosing to represent themselves.

Evan Schein (4m 41s):
Deandre Hopkins negotiated a seventy-five million dollar deal last off season. He act that is a zone agency. And I think you're seeing that trend. It's not going to be the majority of athlete's because there is a huge benefit to athletes working with not only agents', but a team of advisers on the financial side, the legal side or a marketing side, but you are starting to see some very savvy veterans, Deandre Hopkins to name one who was looking to negotiate his own deal and not have to pay the agency that is associated with that. Talk about

Ryan Kalamaya (5m 13s):
Some of those deals and how they could impact an athlete or an entertainer through a divorce. And, and so let's go to the financials for it. So, you know, who Hopkins, you know, $75 million deal, what are the unique aspects of that kind of contract? I mean, it's a big money. What are the things that if he were to go through a divorce or any sort of Professional Athletes, let's first start with the NFL, like what are the things that are unique about what you're dealing with in a divorce with a professional athlete, like an NFL player?

Evan Schein (5m 43s):
She's a good question. And I'm glad you mentioned the NFL because the NFL is like no other sports. So often jokes at the NFL stands for, or not for a long, and there's a good reason. 'cause the physical toll that it takes on and NFL players body look what makes representing athlete's so unique, especially in the NFL, given the physical nature of the sport athletes earn a lot of money, millions of dollars, often hundreds of millions of dollars in their twenties. And I'm gonna say that again because its worth it, which is athletes peak, athletically and financially at a very young age, they often, or to retire in their late twenties, early thirties, look unless your Tom Brady or a LeBron James. And so you're going to play it until you're 40 most athletes peak in their twenties, athletically and financial.

Evan Schein (6m 26s):
And so when you are representing an athlete going through a divorce or separation and the issues come up in terms of child support in terms of lifestyle, in terms of equitable distribution in New York. And I know Colorado has a similar statute, how you're going to divide assets in terms of accounts and provide for a family going forward, athletes and their families get comfortable in used to living a very expensive, a very nice lifestyle at a certain point in time. But the question and the challenges, what happens when an athlete retires, some athletes you see, go into coaching. Some athletes now make the transition to broadcasting where you can earn a lot of money, but that's few and far between most athletes retire.

Evan Schein (7m 10s):
And then the question is what an athlete safe during their peak earning days, what money's available going forward if an athlete retires and there or 33, and there is not a lot of money in the bank and there is no job prospects on their horizon. And then the issue of child support alimony, the distribution of assets come up. The questions of what's an athlete's potential in terms of earnings is always something that's going to be negotiated. And it's an incredibly challenging issue. The other issue that's really important aid specifically with the NFL, the NFL, the contracts are not guaranteed. So when someone hears $70 million deals or a $30 million deal, when you're negotiating a divorce or separation agreement or a child support number, you wanna look at the actual dollars.

Evan Schein (7m 56s):
What is the guaranteed amount that your clients in your athlete is earning by what he or she has an availability to pay from the source of funds. And a lot of times, if an athlete and NFL player was cut, they are never going to see the back end of that deal. So, or using your example of a Deandre Hopkins, let's say 50 million of the $75 million deal is guaranteed. You want to focus on that amount of money, not a futuristic amount that he may never realize. And the, or the unique part of the NFL, these contracts are structured. So many of the deals are incentive-based, which is in order to receive the maximum amount under the contract. And under the players deal there's incentives you need to receive, or you need to throw for 4,000 passing yards, you need to catch 15 touchdowns.

Evan Schein (8m 40s):
You need to play each and every week. So you take an example of where an athlete begins, a divorce proceeding in week eight, there was going to be a question as to how much of that season is on the table. When it comes to figuring out what amount of money there was to distribute and what amount of money there was to pay someone else into divorce.

Ryan Kalamaya (8m 57s):
Yeah. And we, before the show, I'd sent you a, a, you know, you're a New York, the case here in Colorado with Steve Sewell and for a long time Bronco fan, they would recognize Steve <inaudible>, you know, as a, a tight end it, but there was actually a divorce case that went up and it's a published case. So can you tell our listeners a little bit about how that fits into what you just described with the incentives with the NFL,

Evan Schein (9m 17s):
Brian at such a great question, and it's a great point. And I encourage everyone to read this case because it touches on so many important legal issues that are unique to Professional Athletes who were going through a divorce or specifically on the issue of incentives and bonus compensation. And I'll make this, this distinction in the financial world, let's say you represent somewhat who works at a hedge fund. Somebody who works in wall street, who was going through a divorce, or they may receive there bonus or the following year in February or March, but that's a bonus for work that was earned and work that was done the year prior to that distinction with the financial world is that's just one of the bonuses paid out with Steve Sewell in the case, the appellate division made a point to note that in order for him to have received his incentive or the compensation, he had the play in the game based on a, when the scheduled was and when the hae was tied to it.

Evan Schein (10m 10s):
So he needed to play in the game. He needed to play in the playoffs to earn that compensation, had he not played and those games, he would likely not have received that compensation. And so the distinction in terms of filing and the season and what games are played at after it is incredibly important. Yeah. You

Ryan Kalamaya (10m 28s):
Mentioned Tom Brady. I mean, everyone, Tom Brady and Jazelle, one of the most famous kind of couples power or a couples out there, but the kind of analysis or the analogy would be that if Tom Brady had gone through a divorce with gazelle in it, it was in the middle of the season. He goes to the super bowl. If he had some sort of incentive, which you probably did just given the NFL to play in the super bowl or the pro bowl, that it's a matter of when is the cutoff date for cause most jurisdictions I assume you and I talked about before with New York, is that generally speaking and a divorce or a spouse is not entitled to compensation or anything related to earnings after the divorce is final and weather that in New York is in Colorado, its based on when you go to, to find the orders or the decree is entered.

Ryan Kalamaya (11m 10s):
And so, you know, when that decree are that final orders hearing that goes in can matter in terms of whether that super bowl bonus is in play or not, which is essentially what happened in the soil case

Evan Schein (11m 21s):
A hundred percent. And look, if you represented the wife and Steve Sewell's case or Zelle in your own, you know, an analogy book, there's an argument to be made on the other side too, which is the contract itself was negotiated when they were still married. Right? So although the money may not be earned because the game took place after the contract was negotiated, when the parties were still married, there was a benefit that what took place during the marriage. And yes, he may not have physically played in the game. He may not have physically stepped foot on the field at the super bowl before the marriage. But there's a benefit in terms of the fact that the contract was signed at a certain point, okay, let's

Ryan Kalamaya (11m 59s):
Switch gears. I played baseball. Like my birthday was just recently. And so someone, why am I a college buddy? He's sent me a cameo on a recording from a, this guy who was like, why didn't you become a, a professional baseball player you could have made millions. And my response is I was a mediocre college baseball player. I played against mark Tisha who was clearly way better than me played for the Yankees. And, but in baseball had I made it to the major leagues. What's the difference between the NFL or what's unique about the major leagues?

Evan Schein (12m 28s):
She Ryan and Greenpoint when it comes to a major league baseball or the contracts are guaranteed. So when you hear that someone's, sign's a $200 million deal or a $10 million deal that's money, that's guaranteed irrespective of injury, irrespective of really anything else. And sure there is some loopholes or for the most part, the money's guaranteed and the other difference, it majorly baseball compared to the NFL, the shelf-life for a major league baseball player is much longer. And so you have those two distinctions, which are incredibly right. Okay. So for a Rockies

Ryan Kalamaya (12m 57s):
Fans that are still bemoaning the fact that Nolan Arenado got treated, the reason that that Rocky's essentially I had to pay or pickup part of the contract, his because it's guaranteed for our, and so it, is it your practice or in, in New York or you trying to figure out what a baseball player, what part of the contract is for after the divorce versus what has been earned during the marriage?

Evan Schein (13m 20s):
That's a huge factor or it's something that you looked at the players' contracts all of the time and the other unique thing about baseball. There's so much deferred compensation. There's so much deferred money. It, that may be 'cause the team and salary cap and that's across all sports. And I think even going back to football for a second, you know, one of the things to look at is the compensation structure is something that a signing bonus that takes place when a player or signs with the team, or has it converted to a roster bonus in a different form of compensation, which may happen, let's say after the filing. So understanding the contract, understanding the player's deal and really the way the compensation structure works is incredibly important.

Evan Schein (14m 1s):
Not only in football and that only in baseball, but it all so, right. So it's

Ryan Kalamaya (14m 5s):
Like the Bobby Bonia, the kind of, one of the most famous financial deals. I mean, he's still getting paid out and he will continue to do so, even though you retired what like 10 years ago. And so if he goes through a divorce, your having to figure it out. So Evan who or the kind of people that you are relying on, are they financial experts? Are they advisors or they, who are the people that you typically work with in connection with a divorce involving a professional athlete,

Evan Schein (14m 28s):
He was representing a Professional Athletes in a divorce proceeding, a child support proceeding, anything along those lines, your generally working with a team of advisors, your working with an athlete, it's a financial advisor, an athletes business manager at times, a sports agent who represents the athletes and the trust and states attorney. I will say those are generally the professionals that are in the athletes, inner financial circle, who are incredibly helpful to me, the divorce attorney when I'm working with a professional life,

Ryan Kalamaya (14m 54s):
But you do entertainers as well. So let's talk about some of the differences with licensed deals or endorsements, which obviously, you know, you can have some endorsement deals like LeBron James or a Michael Jordan with a Gatorade or something and in that realm, but what are the differences that you're seeing or the divorce lawyers may not understand that typically don't deal with these kinds of unique cases?

Evan Schein (15m 17s):
Yeah. I think that at first and foremost is going back to something we touched on, which is when is the deal and negotiated, signed, and when is the money earned and when it's receipt, I think that's the first and foremost, the second thing is we're living in a time where the opportunities for professional athletes to make money, to brand themselves, endorsements marketing deals, the social media opportunities have never been greater. And so all of this money, all of the opportunities for athletes to earn money off the field, even more money off the field. I mean, athletes, you here that the sneaker deals that NBA players have with Nike Adidas under Arbor there often greater than the actual playing contract and the opportunities have never been better, never been greater.

Evan Schein (15m 60s):
And so as the divorce attorney, you need to look that only the plain contract, but you need to understand Adeline's the compensation structure on the marketing side endorsement side, how the money's going to be paid out. When is it going to be paid out now with respect to the entertainers and authors and other people in the entertainment industry, understanding the royalties, understanding when the money is going to be received or understanding the licensing deals and how money is going to trickle in it is incredibly important. Whether you're representing the athlete or you are representing the spouse or the other,

Ryan Kalamaya (16m 36s):
This episode is brought to you by our law firm. Kalamaya Gosha Amy. And I describe our law firm as an innovative and ambitious trial team that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries, and criminal defense in Colorado. We currently have offices in Aspen, Glenwood Springs, Edwards, Denver, and Boulder. If you want to find out more, visit our website, Kalamaya dot law now back to the show. So, okay, so you've got the property aspects. So how much money is in the bank in terms of dealing with a property, but then you've also, you mentioned compensations. So when you're analyzing child support or alimony or S here in Colorado, we call it a spousal maintenance.

Ryan Kalamaya (17m 20s):
Are there various things that you can do to mitigate or reflect the risk? So if the player gets hurt and they no longer, they don't have a guaranteed contract or an entertainer that all of a sudden they find themselves in, in a controversy and, you know, they lose a bunch of endorsement deals. What are the things that you can do to address that risk going forward? Right.

Evan Schein (17m 42s):
And the other great question at first and foremost, you know, I always say, I think when you represent an athlete in a trainer, it's incredibly important to consider having a agreement before the marriage, because a lot of the issues that we're talking about in terms of alimony, in terms of distribution and how to divide asset's, I think that is something that could be addressed before and athlete gets married, but in either scenario a and M is a challenge because here's the thing, an athlete and their family getting used to living in a very nice lifestyle, often filled with cars and houses and vacation homes. And everyone gets accustomed to living on a nice lifestyle, which is great when an athlete's bringing it home $15 million a year. But what happens when that ends and an athlete's 30 to result has two or three kids who are for seven and nine and the earnings dry up, or even worse, an athlete, even safe and athletes didn't have the benefits of a great team, a great financial adviser, sound, financial advice, or a great estate planning attorney.

Evan Schein (18m 41s):
And so an athlete goes through with divorce or separation in the early thirties, and there is a lifestyle. And so I think these are very challenging issues and unlike any other type of profession, and you know this from your practice out of this for mine, it's not that easy for a professional athlete to go out and find the job where the income and the salary is going to be anywhere close to what a professional athlete earned from their incredible physical gifts and playing on the field there, playing on the CT. So it's a very hard thing to navigate, but hopefully you're able to come to a resolution and figured out a way to do, to maintain a lifestyle, but to do it in a reasonable way, that accounts for the physical decline in and athletes, physical ability, which is directly tied to an athlete's that building.

Evan Schein (19m 25s):
All

Ryan Kalamaya (19m 25s):
Right. So I mean, a Tony Romo's of the world that we're quarterback's now or are very successful announcers are extremely rare. And more often is the cases like Mike Tyson or a 50 cent or Adrian Peterson, these various or Johnny Depp, these various people or entertainers, whether their sports figures or entertainers that just overspent. I think they, I saw something that an NFL players, they file for bankruptcy at, or even a higher rate than the normal population, which is just a fascinating statistic. If my memory serves correctly.

Evan Schein (19m 55s):
Yeah. You mentioned you rattle off some names and look, it's true. And, and here's the thing, which is we hear these stories, you read about it, you see it on TV. You listen to the news. And unfortunately you hear about the sad stories, but there was a recent article about Alvin Camaro, the great new Orleans saints runningback. And the article was that he's in a, it hasn't spent a dollar from his $75 million deal from his plane contract. He's living off and paying his expenses from his marketing, an endorsement opportunities. So for all of the names that you mentioned and that all the stories I hear you here, or your listeners here, there was also good stories. There was the stories of Alvin Kamara.

Evan Schein (20m 35s):
There's the stories of other athletes who get it right, who work with great financial advisors who make good decisions and build a legacy for their families. But the Tony Romo's of the world, look, he makes probably more money for CVS, that he did play on quarterback from the Dallas Cowboys. And that's hard to believe, but in a case like that, it's less complicated. The cases where you don't go into broadcast and, or coaching, and you don't represent someone like Alvin Camero, who was handled things to the right way. It's so much,

Ryan Kalamaya (21m 3s):
Yeah. You mentioned prenups. And we, my partner and I had previously done a couple of episodes at the very beginning of this podcast about premarital agreements. And, you know, I mean, they can still be challenged mean Dr. Dre, you know, I was going through that and we hear about them, right? We can drop these names. What are the things that you do to do to mitigate that or the publicity, the privacy that people are, are really wanting on doubtedly. I mean their public figures, but they don't want people to be talking about their personal lives. I mean, they, they want people to be talking about there results. So what are the things that you can do in your practice to mitigate against that risk

Evan Schein (21m 42s):
A question, and I'll take it from both angles. I'll start with the divorce angle. And then we'll talk about it from the prenup side, when it comes to representing an athlete in a divorce or separation child, support the dispute, get ahead of it, right? Get ahead of it and get a deal done. Because if you were present an athlete, you wanna avoid the spotlight, or you want to avoid having this in the media, you know, part of at a job, you have an attorney to shield the client from everything that comes with a story being out there in the public. And so what I recommend is getting a deal done, spending the time spending, you know, the effort to get a deal done in advance. So certain stories, the situations don't make the front page of your hometown newspaper.

Evan Schein (22m 22s):
That's not a position you want your client to be it in terms of the other part of it is it's harder now than ever before. For the same reasons I mentioned in connection with an athlete's opportunity to make money, but social media, it is so hard for athletes and entertainers and public figures to stay off social media. So if you don't post something for a day or two days, your fans, the people who follow you, a wondering what's going on here. So it's very hard to limit the same publicity that also generates money in terms of branding and marketing and opportunities. But when it comes to representing any one of the public spotlight, I recommend having nondisclosure agreements in place. I recommend having confidentiality agreements in place, and I recommend getting ahead of it and getting a deal done in advance of any joint statement that's issued to avoid the public spotlight that often follows these divorces and public separations for years on the early side of it, when it comes to prenups.

Evan Schein (23m 16s):
And you mentioned Dr. Dre, and you mentioned, you know, a few other examples, I would put the same language in a prenup in terms of confidentiality. I would put nondisclosure language in a prenuptial agreement as well. And to avoid the challenge, look you, no, you want the strongest possible language in a prenup. You want it to be fair. You wanted to be reasonable. There's a certain language in New York, which is a requirement you want to make sure it both sides had an attorney, or you want to do everything you can to get ahead of it ever properly signed, executed, and notarized prenuptial agreement. And that if something happens, you're going to first revert back to the prenup and see how to make this work and incorporate that prenup into a separation and divorce.

Ryan Kalamaya (23m 57s):
Yeah. I want to get to that social media. Cause that is really interesting. I hadn't thought about that in terms of that can be an issue with these public figures, but I want to go back to one thing that you mentioned in terms of getting ahead of it. I know at least I read that what we do and in our practice is for these kind of high profile cases that you can often try to get a deal done before even filing. I mean, I think Laura Wasser out in LA that represents a lot of high-profile people that are at least, you know, that we're kind of rumblings that came in Kanye. We were going through a divorce, but they haven't yet filed. And, and the motivation is to kind of get a deal done before it's even filed in Colorado. We can file, you know what we do typically, especially in Aspen where, you know, we're representing people that are noteworthy is to file a motion to limit the access so that the public, you know, the newspapers, they don't have access to the court.

Ryan Kalamaya (24m 47s):
The open court file that we can get a private judge. But yeah, I mean your absolutely right. I mean, we deal with a lot of, we do with a criminal offense and especially in a small town like Aspen, that will be on the newspaper. And people are often more worried about the repercussions of it being publicized compared to going to jail in a criminal case in likewise, people don't want to have their finances splashed all over the newspapers. So getting a deal done early, and then you can file everything all at, at once. It's one of those things you really have to kind of walk your clients through to say, listen, why you might want to fight on this particular issue, but is it worth it because your brand or, or some other negative repercussion could be a consequence, right?

Evan Schein (25m 27s):
You were a hundred percent, right? That you mentioned the word brand for so many athletes and entertainers. It's a brand. I mean, it's more than just playing sports. There's clothing lines. There is an image. There was sneaker deal's. I mean, there, there is endorsements, U represent so many athletes or the face for so many companies and so much thought that needs to go into that. And you mention it that you mentioned a lower Wasser, even with gates bill and Melinda's divorce, when people are going to the issue with joint statement nine out of 10 times before that joint statement is issued, but deal's done. So when the filing has made, they already had an agreement and there have been negotiating and reports come out that this was true. They were negotiating a deal for over a year. I mean, there were reports that came out that Belinda gates had met with a divorce attorney is going back to 2019 when you have the money and the resources that we're talking about, there is a right way and a wrong way to go about this because there's so much more that's at stake.

Evan Schein (26m 19s):
And it benefits nobody. Nobody when everybody's personal life is broadcast inside the courtroom, but we are living in a different age. I mean, it used to be 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago, where you wanted to know something, you would open up the front page of your newspaper and you would read about it not 10 minutes later, but the next day now, when something happens, its on Instagram, it's on Facebook, on Twitter, your reading about your listening to a podcast about it. I mean we get our news right away. And so if something happens in terms of an athlete and there brand, or there is a, high-profile a divorce, there is no lag time between when it happens. And when we read about it, it's a story and it continues and people continue to follow it on social media, but there is always a domino effect in terms of an athlete and their brand or an entertainer and their brand, if something is not handled the right way.

Evan Schein (27m 9s):
No.

Ryan Kalamaya (27m 9s):
And that brings us to a social media. I mean it's and as listers, no, I mean we've had experts on social media and we might partner and I have a, co-host have talked about it before. So we're very cognizant about it. And we talked to our clients about social media and it's one of those things that it can be the source of evidence and a family law case. So Evan, how do you walk a client that realize on revenue from Instagram or Twitter or some other social media with the balancing being authentic and being transparent about what's going on in their life versus the, it could come back and really haunt them. So what are the things that you have to walk through with your sports and entertainment clients when it comes to social media, if especially if there were a kid's involved and which we'll talk

Evan Schein (27m 54s):
About next, Ryan and I love that question eight. What to tell everyone is don't disparage your partner and don't disparage your spouse on social media. The thing about social media, you, when you mention it in your cases, my cases, the types of clients, but we work with the smart, you know, and understand that the social media, there is a financial benefit to that in terms of the brand, in terms of keeping up with content in terms of sponsorships, in terms of marketing and endorsements, but be smart about it. You know, don't use it as an opportunity to say what so many is or isn't doing with your kids. You know, you want to focus on certain aspects of your life because you need to keep up your brand and be authentic for your followers. And that's one thing and that's fine.

Evan Schein (28m 35s):
But far too often, I see too many athletes and entertainers and public figures taking that next step, wanting to disparage or speak negatively about their spouse, especially as it relates to their children. And whether you're an athlete there or any client, that's a no-no. I mean, that should go without saying nothing good comes out of that. Don't take it to social media. It's not something you're going to want your kids to read about yours down the road or be part of it. And again, nobody benefits if you're going to be on social media, be smart about it, put up content that there is a benefit to it, but don't take that next level. Don't litigate your divorce on social media.

Ryan Kalamaya (29m 13s):
And I remember listening to your podcast Schein on, and you told a story about Tom Brady and after he won the super bowl and embracing his son, can you share that with our listeners? I hope you remember what was kind of a vignette that I'm referring to.

Evan Schein (29m 26s):
I appreciate it that, you know, I remember talk about it on the shine on a podcast. And Tom Brady is someone who gets it. Look not only on the field and I mean, first ballot hall of Famer. We can have a debate best quarterback of all the time or, you know, yeah. Be careful. I've been because I mean, we were in Colorado, I know my audience and that's what I said. We, we can have that debate, but look, Tom Brady, he gets it off the field because he has figured out a way to make it work with GSL and Bridget Moynahan. And there is a history, their in terms of a relationship and his son that he had from a prior relationship, but the blending of the families is it. That could be a whole podcast topic for another day, but the way Tom Brady and your cell Bridget Moynahan that managed to blend there, families.

Evan Schein (30m 7s):
And you mentioned there was a moment or after the Superbowl and he often does this where he wishes or he looks for his son, Jack in the stands and you see you cell and Bridget Moynahan or, you know, make comments and really positive ones to Tom Brady, wishing him good luck. And Tom Brady wishes, Bridget Moynihan, a happy birthday, those or the positive comments that what you want to say on social media. And that's what you, how you want to speak about an ex. That's what you want your child to see. Those are the words you want your child to read the words you, what your child to hear. That's the good stuff. And that's the story like just like the Alvin Camaro story. We don't hear enough about the great things that athletes do off the field, on social media and the financial world in the communities.

Evan Schein (30m 51s):
'cause the attention is on what goes wrong. But that Tom Brady's story scene that reading about it. Absolutely fantastic. Yeah. Which

Ryan Kalamaya (30m 58s):
Brings us to parenting. So what are the unique, I mean, you've got the NFL schedule where they are traveling a bunch or, or an entertainer that maybe not over the last year with COVID is a singer may not be on the road dealing with concert's, but how do you navigate the parenting issues for someone in the sports work? Well, the

Evan Schein (31m 18s):
Key is consistency, instability. It's a good for the kids. It's good for the parents. Each sport is different. And so for example, you talk about, you know, the NFL and we touched on, you know, the national football league earlier, but let's talk about it and connection with parenting or the NFL plays out in the fall and winter, right? So it's every Sunday, but during a, whether it's a real game or a home game, the athlete is home in the home town during the week. So it was less complicated because it's one game on Sundays and its for a shorter time period. But lets talk about majorly baseball, a 162 games schedule. Then you have spring training. A lot of time was spent on the road. A lot of time is spent traveling and it becomes more complicated the way I do it when I work with athletes, especially regardless, it all sports, you know, the schedule in advance, you know, the schedule a year in advance, you know, when spring training is, you know, where a spring training was going to be, you know, when the playoffs are in any sport account for it or get ahead of it, it often when I represent and work with athletes, there's a few different schedules.

Evan Schein (32m 17s):
There is a schedule for when an athlete let's use the baseball context is going to be in Florida or Arizona in spring training. It, there might be a different schedule when an athlete is on the road and there might be a different schedule when the athlete is home, it's unique to each sport. It's unique to obviously each athlete. And it also depends on the age of the child because sometimes the child may visit or spend time the athlete on the road, obviously not the conflict with school, but it also depends on the age of the child. The other unique issue that comes up all the time. And this was a challenge, his free agency or a, when an athlete gets traded, right? You hear about the deals five year deals, 10 year deals, or it looks so much, it goes on. We often wonder, you know, as fans of different athletes, why someone's science, but a tenure deal.

Evan Schein (33m 2s):
Why, why does someone sign a eight year deal with a play for team that never window? And you know, as fans' we question it, but there is so much more that goes into these deals in terms of stability and consistency for families. But what happens if that consistency is appended? What happens if an athlete gets traded from Colorado to where you are to New York and then the athlete finishes the season in New York and then it gets traded somewhere else or theirs with the athletes or a free agent. And so things are constantly changing, constantly moving. So planning getting ahead of it is important, but sometimes you need to be able to have carve-outs. And I often do this in agreements where you have carve-outs that account for situations such as free agency, such as if an athlete or a player is traded mid-year.

Evan Schein (33m 46s):
Yeah.

Ryan Kalamaya (33m 46s):
And that I remember Clayton Kershaw at the Los Angeles Dodgers Picher he has kids or that I have a seven-year-old and the four year old and he's got kids around the same age. I remember listening to an interview asking him about what it's like to be a dad. And he was talking about how his kid sleeps in it. It was like a newborn and the newborn was sleeping until like 11 o'clock because he gets home from you, you know, night game's typically any spins and me having some familiarity with professional baseball players. I mean they were up late at night. So there a typical normal de you know, they S typically sleep in until 11 or noon. 'cause they're up later at night and their kid's and their family's have to revolve around that same thing with the MBA. I mean, there were a lot of these players will talk about, Hey, it's great to be on a Christmas day, like when everyone is watching, but its not so great when you're away from your family.

Ryan Kalamaya (34m 36s):
And so when us divorce attorneys were having to, I mean, we deal with Christmas or Thanksgiving, those or those big holidays and it's different for a professional athlete who might be playing that day

Evan Schein (34m 50s):
A hundred percent different than, and Ryan you're a spot on yeah, we negotiate agreements all of the time, the holidays vacations school breaks. But it's challenging when you were at present athletes and entertainers because of the nuances, if their schedules, your not talking about just factoring in the child's schedule, it's the parent's schedule is the parents at home is the parrot on the road. Whereas the parent let's say, is it on the west coast, east coast? What's the distance. How does someone get their what's the age of the child? There's so much good that goes into this or that separates this area of the law. And when you work with an athlete or someone who travels extensively in, we spend so much time on the road yet what makes them so successful financially is also tied to it.

Evan Schein (35m 30s):
So there's so much that goes into it and so much think about it. It's an incredibly challenging areas, the law. And I want

Ryan Kalamaya (35m 36s):
To wrap up there in of it. I mean a divorce lawyers were typically competitive type a people. I mean, that's just kinda the nature of the business. It's also the same thing with, I mean with athletes and entertainers, I mean they, they are really competitive. So how do you balance that competitive aspect, a client that says I want to when my divorce, but you know that their competitive just that's their personality. How do you reconcile that? Because there is so geared to thinking and winning and losing end results instead of a compromise. And because it's just, it's counter to what they do as a profession. So how do you deal with that as it a divorce lawyer,

Evan Schein (36m 15s):
Right? And the way deal with that is I redefine winning and your right. If you're an athlete you associate winning or really just one way you either when the game or you don't do either score 30 points or you don't. But what I do is I redefined what it means to win because an athlete needs to change their mindset. It can't be, I need to pay X or I need to pay what, the way you redefine winning when you represent and work with an athlete or an entertainer, it's about getting it done. It's about avoiding the spotlight. You sure it's about getting the best possible deal you can, but you also have to be smart as to what your argument over and fighting over in terms of getting it done, avoiding the spotlight, avoiding the publicity, moving on, moving forward. There is a price to that.

Evan Schein (36m 56s):
And trust me when I tell you what it is, an incredibly valuable price.

Ryan Kalamaya (36m 60s):
And, and one thing that I will typically do with clients is to ask them, what do you see your son or daughter's high school graduation like, or in my mind, when in a divorce is in two years, I bumped into my client and they say, we're able to get along. I mean, you can't guarantee that, but I'm sure you have seen it where people will fight over something that is really important to them at the time. And you know, they get it or they get what is a great financial deal, but they drive the spouse or the other party to just despise them so much that it ends up coming back to haunt them in a year or two when they're having to, especially when they're dealing with kids

Evan Schein (37m 39s):
For it. They come back from that. You know, we talked about Tom Brady and that relationship and the blending of families, once you go to a certain place in the divorce and it can be an athlete or it can be anyone that we represent. It's so challenging to make that co-parenting relationship work again. And there is a benefit financially, but the bigger benefit is with your kids and the relationship and the flexibility that you're going to want from the other parent. You know, people lose sight that co-parenting, it's not easy things you're going to come up, whether you're an athlete and your traveling and you want your child to come see, play on the road, some was gonna have to get the child there. And so things are going to come up and you're going to need the other parent's assistance and flexibility and compromise.

Evan Schein (38m 20s):
And so instead of arguing over something that is small or something that you don't really need to fight about, think about all the benefits to not only getting the deal done, but redefined what it means to win and focus on having that great co-parenting relationship going forward and moving with the process. Well,

Ryan Kalamaya (38m 36s):
Aaron, thank you again for the time. It's so interesting to me, at least for me as an avid sports fan and you know, a former athlete myself knot on that same model, but I can appreciate those issues, but also the intellectual aspects of dealing with the licenses, the royalties and the complicated aspects with a lot is at stake. I mean, millions of dollars typically are being addressed if not a billion dollars. And so, you know, I really appreciate your insights for people that want to find out more about you. We mentioned the shine on podcast is that, can you tell our listeners where can they find that,

Evan Schein (39m 9s):
Your honor, I appreciate it again. Thank you for having me on people could follow me on social media and even shine. People can listen to the Cheyenne on podcasts, apple, Spotify, Google, wherever we listened to their, to their podcast or a website is Burke bot.com. The name of the company and my firm is Berkman Bottger Newman and shine. And my other website is Sean, a divorce.com

Ryan Kalamaya (39m 30s):
And your firm deals with not just entertainment and sports divorces, but generally in New York city or throughout the New York metropolitan area.

Evan Schein (39m 39s):
And that's correct. We have a 22 attorneys, four offices in New York city. We have an office in New Jersey as well. We work in a specialized in working with client's going through a divorce or family law and matrimonial issues. That's their focus and that's their specialty. Well, you've

Ryan Kalamaya (39m 53s):
Got the Manhattan in your backdrop there, and now that we can travel, we're recording this post or, you know, or at least in the kind of travel area or a post COVID so to speak. So I look forward to visiting New York city and Hey, if you're ever in the Denver area or Aspen drop, drop a line just don't, you know, be easy on Tom Brady references it at least here in Colorado.

Evan Schein (40m 16s):
And it would absolutely love that. I'll keep the Tom Brady references to these accounts. But again, thank you for having me on, I can talk about this stuff all day long with such an interesting area of the law, your focus and your specialty in Colorado. What I do here in New York. Thank you for having me on,

Ryan Kalamaya (40m 30s):
Hey everyone. This is Ryan again. Thank you for joining us on Divorce at Altitude. If you found our tips, insight or a discussion, helpful, please tell a friend about this podcast for show notes, additional resources or links mentioned on today's episode. Visit Divorce at Altitude dot com. Follow us on apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you listen to it. So many of our episodes are also a posted on YouTube. You can also find Amy and me at Kalamaya dot law or 9, 7 0 3 1 5 2 or 3 6, 5 that's K a L a M a Y a d.law.