Discretionary Trusts in a Divorce with Mackenzie Ralstin | Episode 240

Trusts are often described as “bulletproof” in divorce—but that assumption can be misleading. In this episode of Divorce at Altitude, co-host Ryan Kalamaya is joined by associate attorney Makenzie Ralston to discuss how discretionary trusts are treated in a Colorado divorce.

Ryan and McKenzie explain when a trust may truly be protected, when it can be considered property, and when it may still affect property division, spousal maintenance, or child support—even if it is not divisible. Using common divorce scenarios and Colorado case law, they break down how trust language, trustee discretion, and distribution history can dramatically impact divorce outcomes.

Guest Information: McKenzie Ralston

McKenzie Ralston is an associate attorney at Kalamaya | Goscha with a background in estate planning and tax law. She earned her law degree and Master of Laws in Taxation from the University of Denver Sturm College of Law and focuses on the intersection of trusts, estate planning, and domestic relations.

Episode Outline

What Is a Discretionary Trust?

An overview of trust roles—settlor, trustee, and beneficiary—and how discretionary distribution standards such as health, education, maintenance, and support operate.

Revocable vs. Irrevocable Trusts

Why revocable trusts generally are not property interests for beneficiaries, how irrevocable trusts differ, and when a trust may become relevant in divorce proceedings.

Colorado Case Law on Trusts

A discussion of In re Marriage of Jones and In re Marriage of Balanson, and how courts analyze enforceable rights versus discretionary interests.

Economic Circumstances vs. Property

How a trust may not be property—but still influence property division as an economic circumstance in a divorce.

Trustee Control and Distribution Patterns

Why consistent distributions, beneficiary control, and trustee appointment powers can undermine claims that a trust is fully discretionary.

Trust Distributions as Income

How regular and dependable trust distributions may be included as gross income for spousal maintenance and child support calculations.

Drafting Trusts With Divorce in Mind

How thoughtful trust drafting—spendthrift provisions, independent trustees, divorce-triggered protections, and prenuptial requirements—can prov

What is Divorce at Altitude?

Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha provide tips and recommendations on issues related to divorce, separation, and co-parenting in Colorado. Ryan and Amy are the founding partners of an innovative and ambitious law firm, Kalamaya | Goscha, that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries, and criminal defense in Colorado.

To subscribe to Divorce at Altitude, click here and select your favorite podcast player. To subscribe to Kalamaya | Goscha's YouTube channel where many of the episodes will be posted as videos, click here. If you have additional questions or would like to speak to one of our attorneys, give us a call at 970-429-5784 or email us at info@kalamaya.law.

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DISCLAIMER: THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS ON THIS PODCAST IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL ADVICE. CONTACT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR STATE OR AREA TO OBTAIN LEGAL ADVICE ON ANY OF THESE ISSUES.

Transcript

Ryan Kalamaya (00:38)
Welcome back to another episode of Divorce at Altitude. This is your cohost, Ryan Kalameha. This week, I am joined by an associate attorney with our firm, McKenzie Ralston. And what we're going to be talking about are discretionary trust. People frequently come into divorce in Colorado with expectations and some preconceived notions. One of those is that I frequently hear in consultations or when I talk to new clients is

He or she, or I have money in a trust and it is bulletproof. He or she cannot get at it. If we talk about our hypothetical divorce clients, Eric and Melanie Wolf, another example might be that Eric is the beneficiary of a trust and Melanie comes into my office and says, he's got a trust and we can't get at it. He's talked about how this trust is not property and I can't get at it. And so Mackenzie and I are going to talk a little bit about how

Often that is true. And then other times where that is not true or that is not the case. And it is surprising how people have these expectations in a divorce and in connection with trust. before I go on any further, Mackenzie, for our listeners, they haven't heard anything about you. Can you give people a little bit of background into where

you're coming from and a little tidbit about you and the firm.

McKenzie Ralston (02:06)
Yeah. So I recently joined the firm and made a little bit of a transition into domestic relations, but there's a huge intertwining relationship between domestic relations and estate planning, which is where my background is originally from. I came from an estate planning firm. got my master's in tax concurrently with my law degree at University of Denver, Sturm College of Law. And excitingly, Calamity Agosha is now opening an estate planning department and leaning into

the skills that we have and how everything intertwines. So hopefully this will give the listeners an idea of how to set up their own trust potentially in the future to protect not only them, but their children and any new relationships that they might get into.

Ryan Kalamaya (02:50)
Indeed, one of the things I like about family law is the intersection with tax, with property, but then also trust in estate and wealth planning and estate planning. Yeah, we're going to have some separate episodes talking a little bit more about estate planning, but for this episode, we're going to talk about discretionary trust. So for listeners that don't have that, they have Eric Wolfe or Melanie Wolfe, just general understanding of this is a trust. When we talk about discretionary trust, what is a discretionary trust?

McKenzie Ralston (03:18)
Discretionary trust is exactly what it sounds like. It grants the trustee discretion. so something that the listeners need to know is there are several roles within a trust. There's the settler or the grantor. That's the person who set up the trust. There's the trustee. That's the person who is tasked with administering the trust according to the settler's wishes. And then there's the beneficiary, which is likely Eric Wolf in this case. And so let's say Eric Wolf's father.

has set up this trust. He's the set Lord. He might be the trustee during his lifetime, or maybe he's appointed somebody else to be the trustee. And so what it means when there's a discretionary trust is that the trustee has the ability to withhold distributions or grant distributions. And typically what that looks is we set up a trust with these discretionary distribution standards, typically health, education, maintenance, and support. And so the beneficiary comes to the trustee and says,

hey, I need some money, I want to pursue an education. And the trustee can say yes or no. And so the trust might say, consider the other assets available to the beneficiary before making this distribution. If Eric already has a 529 plan set up, then maybe there is no distribution to be made for education. And that's really the crux of the discretionary trust.

Ryan Kalamaya (04:38)
And so can you maybe explain a little bit in the context of a revocable trust versus an irrevocable trust? Cause we're setting the stage for our listeners in terms of how a discretionary trust can matter in a divorce context. So Eric goes through divorce and what kind of trust he is the beneficiary of can really matter. So a discretionary trust, where does that fit in? What's the difference between

an irrevocable trust and a revocable trust and maybe discuss the discretionary trust and where that falls in.

McKenzie Ralston (05:12)
Discretionary provisions can be in any trust, whether it's revocable or irrevocable. Most people will come in with a revocable trust. It's a very common estate planning tool. That is a trust wherein the settler is able to change the terms of the trust at any point. For example, Eric's father sets up a trust, wants to have Eric as a beneficiary. Eric marries Melanie. Maybe dad doesn't really like Melanie and he decides to disinherit Eric.

He can do that at any time because it's a revocable trust, full discretion during his lifetime to revoke it. Now an irrevocable trust is more commonly seen when we have taxable clients and the taxable threshold is so high that many people don't use them that frequently anymore, but you can for life insurance to hold property. There's many reasons why you might choose to do that. Charitable trusts, and those are ones where you can no longer revoke the interest. so.

If Eric came in and he was the beneficiary of an irrevocable trust, we're going to have a few more concerns than if he is the beneficiary of a revocable trust, because dad can take away his interest from the revocable trust, as we said, but dad can't take away his interest in the irrevocable trust. And so that might be a situation where we're looking at Eric having property.

Ryan Kalamaya (06:26)
So for listeners, what we, the important piece is that, a revocable trust, if it's Eric's dad that had, if Eric is the beneficiary of a revocable trust, pursuant to CRS 1410 113, that is not property. So Eric, because it's the same thing with a will, that will can be changed by Eric's dad at any point. Another related topic is that if Eric and Melanie

If they've set up a revocable trust themselves, that is in essence seen as their property. So some people will come in and they'll be like, the house is in the name of the trust. I can't touch it. I can't, it's not even marital property. You can revoke a trust. It's essentially yours. And the same kind of concept applies to Eric's dad. And there was a previous case, you remember, there was a Gorman that said that a revocable trust that Eric was, that was a property interest, but then the

Colorado legislature changed 1410-113 and said, if Eric is the beneficiary of a revocable trust, that's not something that the court can even consider. It's not a property interest. And so it's not property. Then the kind of analysis is, okay, if it's an irrevocable trust, then we decide or get into whether it's property or not. And a discretionary trust is a common irrevocable trust.

or irrevocable trust, there are discretionary trusts that can be, that are common within that rubric. Can you walk listeners through what that means in the color of divorce and why that can matter?

McKenzie Ralston (08:01)
Yes. And one thing to touch on though is that many people do come in with a revocable trust and it might say Eric Wolf's revocable trust, but if the settlor is dead, then it becomes irrevocable. So that's something that I think is important as a distinction. But yes, if it is an irrevocable trust and there's discretion, then the argument there is that there's no property interest because I'm not even guaranteed to get that money.

The trustee can say no to me at any time. Maybe there is a power of appointment where one of the beneficiaries can redirect assets to different beneficiaries. So the more discretion there is in the trust, the more of a question there is as to whether the beneficiary actually can receive the interest. And so that's what the court is looking for. If the trust says the trustee must make distributions or the trustee

may make distributions, these are very different situations. implies that no matter what the discretion is of the trustee, they must make some degree of distribution. If they may make distributions and they have that discretion, then it's very difficult for someone to say that is a property interest because the beneficiary might never see any money from that trust. And so that's what the best case scenario for our client is that

They have a trust that's fully discretionary. And the best language you want to see is that they may make distributions in equal amounts or none at all. They can exclude beneficiaries. They could withhold distribution. That type of language gives so much discretion that it is truly beneficial in a divorce because you're looking at someone who has maybe an interest in a trust or maybe not. There's no guarantee. And that's what we want to see.

Ryan Kalamaya (09:52)
And

for listeners to provide a little bit more context, there are previous episodes that we've done. One is episode 20, that was with Kim Willoughby where we talk about trust in a divorce. And Kim talks about whether you have an enforceable right. There are other episodes that we've done with G. Duffenbaugh, a trust in the state attorney. And one thing McKenzie and I will deal with is having a trust in the state T &E attorney sometimes opine. Cause it is, can be very gray area as to whether or not

This is a discretionary trust or not. And when you have these provisions where may make if the trustee in the sole discretion of the trustees discretion that those sorts of provisions can really matter. But let's go a little bit deeper here, Mackenzie. What is the case in Colorado, the Seminole case, and maybe talk a little bit about it where we have a discussion about discretionary trusts.

And then the next step is we'll talk about when our irrevocable trust, when do they become property interests and they are not discretionary trust. But first, what's the kind of seminal case in Colorado on discretionary trusts?

McKenzie Ralston (11:04)
Yeah. So everybody looks at in-ray marriage of balancing, which basically says that a remainder interest that can't be withheld is property, even if it might not ever be received. So sometimes there is a property value that there's a trust that the ability to receive it is remote. So maybe it's not a trust that's set up by your dad. It's a trust that's set up by your grandparents and your dad and his siblings.

are beneficiaries prior to you, but your grandfather has passed away. Your dad is now taking distributions, acting as the beneficiary, and you are next in line. Dad might exhaust that trust. We don't know. Or you might see some money from that trust. But if it's not discretionary, if you can't withhold that interest, even though it may be hard to value, that is still going to be considered property under in-ray marriage of balancing, which I think often surprises people. And that's where we have.

people coming in and saying, I have this bulletproof trust, and in reality, maybe not.

Ryan Kalamaya (12:08)
was because Balanson disrupted, it was a 2001 case that really changed the legal landscape. Because before that, In remarry of Jones was a 1991 case. And that said that discretionary trusts in essence are not property interests because there is, the trustee has discretion. So as you said, we're really getting into, there's not an enforceable, the health safety education, those components, that's not going to

mandate the trustee provide anything and balancing the issue that the beneficiary said is there's so many variables. I'm not going to get it. I may never get it because blah, blah, blah. And it really was an argument about how difficult it would be to value that remainder interest because it was so far out in the future and it doesn't matter how difficult it is to value. It's a property.

interest and for listeners, Mackenzie, that may not understand, are there any tax rules or why do people set up discretionary trust? Why is there anything that we should know about why these are so common and why people set them up in the first place?

McKenzie Ralston (13:17)
Yeah, a huge reason to set up a discretionary trust is divorce and other creditors, of course, but the most common creditor is your divorce expel. And so the main reason people set this up is to be able to withhold. So you could see it in a couple of ways. For example, a spendthrift provision, which, you know, looks at whether the child is irresponsible potentially. And if they're irresponsible, you don't want the trustee to make distributions. You could look at.

Whether a child might have drug addiction issues, gambling problems, you don't want the trustee to make the distributions of your hard-earned so that it could be thrown down the drain. And so there's lots of reasons why people might not want their children to receive the money outright. They've passed away young and their children are relatively young and it's not proper for a 21-year-old to inherit half a million dollars. So there's several reasons, but one of the main reasons

Is that divorcing spouse? want to make sure that if somebody is coming after you, that you don't have to make these distributions because it's not your property to make. And so they can't sue you and then take some of the money that's in the trust. If you get into a car accident, if someone trips and falls on your property, someone comes after you for money in any capacity, you want that trust to be separate from your own property that you can offer somebody.

as a payout. And so that's one the biggest reasons that we see those discretionary trusts, but also to account for unknowns going forward. have your child, you've set up a trust for them maybe right away. They're one years old. We have no idea how that child is going to turn out. We hope they go to college, they have a fruitful life, they marry the right person and nobody ever wants to take their money. But that's wishful thinking and that's not the situation that everybody ends up in.

Ryan Kalamaya (15:09)
I think it gets into the kind of philosophy about money within families where someone could, a grandfather could make a significant amount of money in the 1920s. I mentioned the standard trust and they might have these feelings that I'm not going to guarantee that when Eric hits the age of 40, for example, that he gets $10 million. Those provisions do exist. There was a Wall Street Journal article about

these ultra wealthy families and they would have trust reveal parties and really tell the child or the beneficiary, hey, you're actually inherit a hundred million dollars when you are a particular age. Now in that circumstance, Mackenzie, it's a property interest because there is a certain time in which they're going to receive money. And so the person that is the settlor, the grantor, they might not feel comfortable.

guaranteeing a particular amount, but they want their family to have that kind of safety net for the education, for their health. There might be a child with special needs that requires a lot more money and that it could go multi-generational. that if Eric is, he's very successful, he may not need that money. And then it can be passed along down a generation. So yes, there is divorce planning and you might

The patriarch or the settlore or grantor might not want their kind of wealth to be subject to a divorce, but there are other considerations and you've touched on them, but I think it's helpful for people to understand why these provisions are, they are very common. so McKinsey talked to me a little bit about what the role and the history and the pattern and the control that a beneficiary has over the trustee or the trustees kind of history and

their involvement in discretionary tries, how that might come into play in a cholera divorce.

McKenzie Ralston (17:09)
Yes, certainly. And if I may add one thing about what you were saying, you had touched on multi-generations. What people should know is that a trust can continue for a thousand years in Colorado. So that's a great point that you make. We know what our kids look like. We know what our grandkids look like, but do we know what our great grandkids look like? Maybe we don't want to make those distributions. But yes, the history of distributions is, could turn out to be seminal in a divorce because

We're looking at whether you can rely on these distributions. So you might say, this is totally discretionary. Great. Does the benefit, does the trustee pay for the beneficiary's rent every single month without fail? Then is it really discretionary? Is he truly going to withhold the money and make you homeless? That's what we want to look at. If there are patterns of distribution that are so predictable that you're going to rely on them. Maybe you have a job that

doesn't really pay your expenses and you know that you're getting this money. The only reason you're living the way you're living is because you're getting this money. Opposing counsel is going to look at that and say, what are you talking about? This isn't discretionary. They're giving you money consistently every single month. And so that's one thing to look at. Another thing to look at that you were touching on was the control of the beneficiary. A lot of people set up the trust so that the beneficiary can make distributions to themselves. And that works out.

really well until you have a divorcing spouse saying, you need the money and you're not going to make distributions. That's a very valid question. And so a way to protect that is to have an independent trustee or a co-trustee who's similarly interested in the trust. For example, if you have pot trust and what a pot trust is that there are multiple beneficiaries of the same trust. So there's several ways you could set things up, but let's say Eric and his brother.

our beneficiaries of the exact same trust doesn't split off into separate shares, and they are both trustees. The brother has a vested interest in not necessarily making the distributions, which could be a good argument to say that Eric doesn't have guaranteed distributions, even though he's a beneficiary, because that negatively affects his brother's interest. And so he's not necessarily going to say yes to every single thing that you ask for. What we want to look at

is not just the actual text of the trust, but what we call something substance over form. So we have the form of the trust that says it's discretionary, trustee can withhold, but then you have Eric as the trustee of his own trust, or you have him getting consistently $2,500 every single month. Substance over form, the substance is that you are actually going to be receiving this regardless of what the trust says. It's very clear.

And that's something that opposing counsel will look into if you're divorcing and you're the beneficiary of a trust.

Ryan Kalamaya (20:00)
Yeah, the takeaways here are that if Eric is both the trustee and beneficiary of his own trust, there's an argument that it's his property. One of my consulting experts, Eric Six, used to say if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably a duck. It's unsettled in Colorado in terms of if Eric is both the trustee and beneficiary of his own trust. But then you also have the other consideration of, Eric has the

If he's the beneficiary and the trust provides that he has a power of appointment for the trustee and he just has an unfettered ability to the power of appointment, then there's another kind of argument that if the trustee does not do what he likes, then he's just going to fire the trustee and appoint a straw man that just does his bidding. So there are some really nuanced issues in this. You mentioned the pattern and I think it's because a lot of people

they don't realize that pattern can matter. And you first have this property interest in whether it is or is not property. Oftentimes it is what's called an economic circumstance. So the court's not just going to ignore the fact that Eric has this safety net. I mentioned that term earlier, and that might be a consideration. If Eric, if we know that he is not going to be left destitute, that he's got this 10.

$50 million divorce that he's the beneficiary of that is going to be there if he needs to be. That's going to be something that the court is, it's an economic circumstance that the court's going to wrestle with in terms of whether to award him 50 % of the marital estate if there's a divorce between Eric and Melanie Wolf. And we mentioned earlier about the revocable trust. A revocable trust

It's not property, but it's also, it's not even an economic circumstance. And there are circumstances, Mackenzie, where a trust could be a discretionary trust and it may not even be in economic circumstance because there's just so many different variables or so much discretion that is left with the trustee or the trust could be drafted in such a way that it may not even be an economic circumstance. But you mentioned about the pattern.

of these distributions and how that can matter, because then you're getting into support and whether spousal maintenance and child support, whether those distributions in that history of distributions, even if it's a discretionary trust, and even if it is not property, then talk to me a little bit about how those distributions can be factored in when considering income in a Colorado divorce for discretionary trust.

McKenzie Ralston (22:41)
The way that gross income is defined is it's all income from whatever source derived. And so when we're looking at distributions, especially ones that you can find a pattern of distribution, you would factor that into the calculation of what your gross income is. The way that gross income just generally factors into divorce is we take that number, whatever your gross income is, and we use that to calculate support obligations or

child support maintenance, we put that into the Colorado calculator and we figure out what you might be on the hook for. And so if you have that consistent distribution of income, you have that guaranteed 2,500 on top of whatever you're making each month, then the opposing counsel is going to ask you to incorporate that. And they're going to attribute that income to you. And that might be factored into what you might owe for maintenance or child support.

Ryan Kalamaya (23:39)
And that's one of the reasons that we use gross income because oftentimes in discretionary trusts, beneficiary will receive this money, but it won't be taxable. And there's other times when it may not even show up on the tax returns. Oftentimes they'll come into my office and be like, yes, we live off the trust distribution. They can be quarterly, can be monthly, they can be random. Oh, hey, we needed a down payment for a house. The trustee says, I'll give you $200,000 and that was one year. And if it's a one-off.

Then it's, there's one distribution. it's every month, like clockwork, like you, you mentioned, then if Eric receives that $10,000 distribution every month, it's going to be included in his income, even if it's not property. So when we're calculating the maintenance obligation and it could be above the formula, it could be above the guidelines for 1410-120, 1410-114, the threshold is $240,000.

But it is going to be factored into that, whatever that analysis is for determining spousal maintenance. And then the same thing with child support is that we're going to factor that in under 1410, 115 subsection five, what those distributions are. Now, I think the more kind of nuance or the problem that you have is when they're irregular, they're variable. So the trustee gives distributions.

because someone's really having a hard time. They may have gotten injured at work or there might've been something going on. And then there's this kind of a period of distributions because the trustee really was adhering to the trust agreement. And we haven't mentioned fiduciary duties. One of the reasons that the court kind of will look at this and say, this is not properties because the trustee has a fiduciary duty to follow the trust agreement. And if they're just using it for their personal piggy bank or

the beneficiary just gets whatever they want, then there's a potential claim against the trustee. And that could be by subsequent contingent beneficiary. So the Eric Wolf's children could have a claim against the trustee. Hey, I should have received a lot more money, except you gave dad all this money and he didn't need it. And those kinds of obligations really are something that need to be followed or respected. But getting back to the income component, if Eric gets $10,000 per month.

He could be the beneficiary of a discretionary trust and that trust may not be property, but the income that he derives from that trust is going to be factored into maintenance and child support if it's regular and dependable.

McKenzie Ralston (26:08)
one of the greatest things about a trust instrument is that you can draft it in almost any way you like. We recently dealt with a case where there was a pretty robust discretionary provision that even touched on the topic of divorce. If there's a divorce, don't distribute to my beneficiary. You can put in language that says, I'm requiring my beneficiary to get a pre or postnuptial agreement before they receive any distributions from this trust.

There are public policy considerations and stuff like that. You can't, I guess you can't put in anything, but you could put in a lot to make your trust really do what you want it to do for you. Make it protected. If the beneficiary is going through a divorce, maybe there's an automatic appointment of a co-trustee. If he's acting as their own trustee, you could play with it a lot to add those protections that are common and commonly attacked.

in the divorce context. And so I think that's what's really great about the trust in general. You can use it to your benefit. could use it not only to make the administration of your estates much simpler, but you could also use it to make your children's lives more, make it, make them simpler and make them easier with anything that they're going through. And so you could put in the divorce provisions, you could put in the spend for provisions and the best part about them.

is that during your lifetime, you could change them. if new case law comes out, you can change the trust, especially having those revocable trusts. I think that's the biggest takeaway. Don't be so certain that your trusts are bulletproof. Take the time to review them every few years and make sure that they're working for you. If your circumstance changes and maybe in a divorce, you had to split more of your trust than you wanted to, then look at your own trust and look at what that might look like for your children and try to make it better going in the future.

Ryan Kalamaya (28:02)
Yeah, I think a couple of points that we haven't touched on that are important for people is that often people are, they're not going to listen to this podcast if they're happily married. There are some considerations. If there is a trustee and there's a beneficiary, Eric Wolf is the beneficiary. If he's protecting himself in a divorce, there's something to be said instead of him getting a distribution then, and that goes into the marital estate oftentimes where there's like a down payment and it's jointly titled.

than that what was once separate property or was not even property. If it came from discretionary trust, then, you know, it goes into the marital estate. It's going to be converted gift or presumed to be a gift. And there might be something to have a loan instead of that distribution being just without any strings attached. It is essentially going to be treated as a gift to the marital estate. The trustee might say, all right, Eric, I'll have you sign a loan. And there's

different considerations, we've had various cases involving trustees or beneficiaries and whether a distribution is a loan or if it's just a straight up distribution, that can really drive the economics in a divorce. And that kind of brings me to another point and that is they oftentimes the determination of trust and whether it's discretionary or it falls within that balance in rubric that can really determine what is going to happen in a divorce.

what Melanie or Eric is going to receive. And so one mechanism or one thing that we do see is that there will be a motion that is filed. It's either a motion under rule 56 or 57 of the rules of civil procedure. So it's either kind of a motion for partial summary judgment or a motion for a determination of law or motion for declaratory judgment. And it's basically asking the court, hey court, we have this trust agreement and we want to know whether or not this is a discretionary trust.

Is it property or not? And you can do that ahead of time. Amy and I have talked about that in the past, but it is something that we will see because it's a legal determination. And the final point, and I mentioned this earlier, is that you can have these consulting trust and estate attorneys because the thing that we often will see is that the estate planning community and McKinsey, they're really on the cutting edge. So you start seeing people drafting trusts in South Dakota.

Wyoming and Nevada. And that's like the new kind of cutting edge and these different provisions that used to be invoked to have limited partnerships. And then it went into slats and you see that what happens on the family law side is that we see those trends in estate planning and wealth transferring that those that can really be, there's a delay because people then have these estate planning mechanisms set up.

And then there's a couple of years that goes by and then they go through a divorce. so we see the kind of fallout from that. there's case law that is developing as we go through of is this property or not? So those are the kind of things that I think people can take away. It's a complex issue. And I think that the kind of summary is that if there is a discretionary trust, it is not property. can.

and is often an economic circumstance, but the income that is distributed rather to the beneficiary, if that beneficiary is in a divorce in Colorado, if it's Eric, then that income, if it's regular and dependable is going to be factored in for spousal maintenance and or child support. Mackenzie, thank you so much for all of the insight and joining us on Divorce at Altitude. And thank you to our listeners and we hope you've enjoyed this episode.

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