Ep. 107 Preston Rogers: on proximity to decision makers, customer feedback loops, awareness of diminishing challenge and the importance of balancing family priorities within an international career.

Preston moved to Lloyds Banking Group in 2022 to lead their OEM Captive Finance Partnership, Jaguar and Land Rover Financial Services. 

The vast majority of Preston’s career has been in Sales & Marketing roles in the OEM Financial Services space where he’s tried to get as close to the promotion and sales process as possible. 

His career has been roughly split between South Africa and the UK, where he’s now permanently based. 

Preston spent almost 20 years with the BMW Group and since 2010 has been in various General Sales Management and Director positions across South Africa & the UK. 

In our conversation we talk about his childhood in South Africa, his early love of all things automotive and how he found his way into the industry. 

Some of the key takeaways for me in this conversation include: 

• how he found school relatively easy academically until what’s known in South Africa as standard 8 when he needed to apply himself more 
• the impact of subjects that interest us and the ability of a good teacher to make a subject engaging 
• that he was an all rounder into sport, academic subjects and got involved in the plays too 
• his awareness of being too far away from the decision makers from his earliest job when he was filling shelves for Glaxo Smith Kline 
• how a conversation with a mother of two girls at his school had a contact in BMW, that led to an almost 20 year career with that brand 
• his experience being on the phones to customers in his early days at BMW FS SA where the size of the organisation made for a highly effective customer feedback loop 
• a recurring theme of Preston noticing the level of challenge reduce after time in any role 
• the story about bringing together four disparate teams during COVID and them becoming a strong team 
• his realisation that upward progress would require international mobility and preferring to opt for some stability for his children 
• and the vital role played by his wife to enable him to follow this career 

I have known Preston since 2006 and am delighted to be able to introduce him to you in this episode. As always, I look forward to hearing what resonates with you. 

LinkedIn: Preston Rogers 

Episode Directory on Instagram @careerviewmirror  

Email: cvm@aquilae.co.uk 

If you enjoy listening to our guests career stories, please follow CAREER-VIEW MIRROR in your podcast app.  

Episode recorded on 13 February, 2023 

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Preston Rogers: 0:00

I've always, maybe to a fault, believed the best of people. I always think there's a lot of there's a lot of good in people and there's a lot that they can bring to the table. It's just about finding what will unlock that and what gets people out of bed and what will get people motivated to fulfil their potential.

Aquilae: 0:15

Welcome to Career-view Mirror the automotive podcast that goes behind the scenes with key players in the industry looking back over their careers to share insights to help you with your own journey. Here's your host Andy Follows

Andy: 0:47

Hello listeners, Andy here. Thank you for tuning in. In this episode, we're celebrating the career today of Preston Rogers. Preston moved to Lloyds Banking Group in 2022 to lead their OEM captive finance partnership Jaguar and Land Rover Financial Services. The vast majority of Preston's career has been in sales and marketing roles in the OEM financial services space, where he's tried to get as close to the promotion and sales process as possible. His career has been roughly split between South Africa and the UK, where he's now permanently based. Preston spent almost 20 years with the BMW Group and since 2010, has been in various general sales management and director positions across South Africa and the UK. In our conversation, we talk about his childhood in South Africa, his early love of all things automotive, and how he found his way into the industry. Some of the key takeaways for me in this conversation include how he found school relatively easy academically, until what's known in South Africa as standard 8 when he needed to apply himself more. The impact of subjects that interest us and the ability of a good teacher to make a subject engaging. That he was an all rounder into sport, academic subjects, and he got involved in the plays too. His awareness of being too far away from the decision makers from his earliest job when he was filling shelves for GlaxoSmithKline. And it was because a mother of two girls at his school had a contact in BMW that led to an almost 20 year career with that brand. His experience being on the phones to customers in his early days at BMW Financial Services South Africa where the size of the organisation made for a highly effective customer feedback loop. A recurring theme of Preston, noticing the level of challenge reduced after time in any roll. The story about bringing together four disparate teams during COVID and then becoming a strong team and his realisation that upward progress would require international mobility and preferring to opt for some stability for his children, and the vital role played by his wife to enable him to follow this career. I've known Preston since 2006. And I'm delighted to be able to introduce him to you in this episode. As always, I look forward to hearing what resonates with you. Hello, Preston, and welcome and where are you coming to us from today?

Preston Rogers: 3:24

I'm in London in the UK.

Andy: 3:26

Very nice. And where did your journey start? Where were you born?

Preston Rogers: 3:31

I was born in South Africa. And I grew up there in Johannesburg and spent most of my early life there, school, university and started working in South Africa. My journey sort of found its way to the UK where I'm now permanently based.

Andy: 3:48

Right. Let's go back and let's start right at the beginning. You were in Johannesburg. Tell me little bit about your family please Preston. So have you got brothers and sisters?

Preston Rogers: 3:57

Yeah, I've got one one sister. She's a couple of years older than me. Yeah, mom, mom and dad still in South Africa. They've moved from Johannesburg to Cape Town. But yeah, we grew up in various places within Johannesburg. But yeah, that was my my stomping ground.

Andy: 4:12

Okay, and your sister being a couple of years older,

Preston Rogers: 4:13

Yeah, I think my parents probably they were quite did she lead the way a little bit in terms of your parents and getting them up to speed and creating a bit of space for you as the number two coming along? Did you notice any of that, getting a bit of an easier deal because they'd practised on her or anything like that? young when they had my sister and I so it was one of those sort of probably quite a whirlwind experiences as it always is with with young kids. Yeah, I think my sister probably I think you're right she probably did pave the way for me a little bit and I think sometimes I notice it with my own children. I think it is sometimes easier being the second child because your your parents know what to expect. And yeah, that that's probably true for my sister and I as well.

Andy: 4:58

Right. And what about school, Preston, how were you as a student?

Preston Rogers: 5:04

I'd probably say have found the work, I always probably had the ability to be on top of the work, that probably meant I didn't always try as hard as I should have. Because I was always sort of able to do what I needed to do. And if I really enjoyed a subject, I'd really go for it and could do extremely well. And that probably depended on the teacher and how engaged I was on that. I always always loved maths at school. So that was something that I always enjoyed. But it's probably fair to say that I, I used to enjoy a sort of a varied set of experiences at school, I loved my sport, played just about every sport going, I'd get involved in the play, and all that sort of stuff at school as well. So to me, academics was one of one of many different things, and it was probably sport first, schoolwork second, but as I got older, I understood that schoolwork needed to come first because it became ever more important, it wasn't just that test that week, it was actually I'm gonna have to do something with with what I'm learning in the future.

Andy: 6:00

When did that happen? Or was there anything that particularly helped that penny to drop for you? It's interesting how it can be not that helpful if

Preston Rogers: 6:05

I think it was probably one of those where I you're bright, and you find stuff fairly straightforward, was always able to get the marks that I needed to get. I'm not you don't actually need to apply yourself. But that's the nature of school where you get everybody together and they all have to go at a similar pace. And if you're finding that quite one of those who'd study for weeks before, I usually used to sort of get it done the night before or a couple of days easy, then you miss out on some of the struggle that might actually be more helpful and relevant to what you're going to have to do later. But finally, it got things got hard enough to send you a message that you needed to lean in. And yeah, and before. And that was usually good enough. And I found when I you did. And I think especially around some of the teachers, I think if a teacher could get me really engaged and switched on. So I could think of my finally a geography teacher, or history teacher that would really even English teachers who could get the best out of you. I was a far better student and I was probably what would be called standard eight, probably got much better marks when I was engaged than if the teacher came across as it being a bit of a chore, then I wouldn't respond that well, I'd probably also go through the motions a little bit.

Andy: 7:39

Yeah, it's interesting, because you said you like maths so that the subject of maths obviously engaged you, but then in South Africa, just sort of your third last year where you teachers were able to engage you in history, geography and English, which is quite broad, but then you're also saying you're very sporty, you know, academic didn't have to try too hard. And also you did theatre, or you got involved in the plays as well. So it sounds like you're very rounded, you're very picked your your final subjects that you were going to do to rounded student. What did your parents What were their expectations on you academically?

Preston Rogers: 8:09

I think they knew that if I applied myself, I could do relatively well. And I think that they probably got frustrated at times if I wasn't applying myself, but I think finish, I probably realised that actually, it wasn't quite as they also coming from South Africa, I think life there is it's a great climate and it's a great place to be outdoors and be on a sports field or with a racquet or a ball. And and I think they also knew that I'd get a lot from that. And that was probably part of what was making me happy and making me be easy as it used to be to just sort of rock up and get the a good person and a good sort of member of society. So I think it was it was quite good. They never pushed me, you know where it was, you know, it's our way or the highway. And I think that's something I really learned from that is that it had to come from inside. So I had to decide to apply myself, and then knew that's how I would sort of achieve what I needed needed to. marks that you wanted to or you needed to. So I'd say definitely And that's probably a thread that's been with me when it's come from inside, it's probably been much more powerful than if somebody was sort of forcing me to do something. So I think that approach resonated with me and probably still resonates with me today. So clearly, if I if I didn't do great, they were probably a bit disappointed if I did well, they were very proud. the last two years that I was at school, I had to knuckle down a But it was never something that was forced or would be source of huge conflict it was very much a we want you to do well, where you can do well and we want you to try your best. And even if I think of how I am with my own kids today, trying your best is more important than the result. Because I think that's you know, we've we've all got abilities in one area or another and you bit more, and I started to do that. know, we're not all the best at everything. And we're not all the worst of everything, but you've got to try and sort of do as well as you could do.

Andy: 9:39

Yeah. I listened recently to an interview with Maro Itoje the England rugby player. It was on the High Performance podcast, really great episode. And his parents had no interest in his rugby didn't really push him he had to get up out of bed himself and get himself off to training and do all that. And he took a lot out of that he recognised that having, as you said, it had to come from within. And he was also talking about his time at Saracens, I think it is where he plays and how you could make mistakes, but not effort mistakes, skill mistakes are acceptable. But you had to put in the effort, which is exactly your point about, you know, if we giving our best, then you can't ask for more than that. A couple of things I want to ask you, I want to ask you about growing up in South Africa, I also want to ask you about what your parents did, what visibility of the jobs you had. So what did you see your mom and dad doing when you were growing up? So we'll do that one first, if that's okay.

Preston Rogers: 10:40

Yeah. So so my mom was a teacher. She was a music teacher, she actually taught at the primary school where my sister and I both went, which was interesting being in the same class when you're when your mother's the teacher, because the way you'd get interacted with at home and in the classroom, would be different. But yeah, so my mom was a teacher, and my dad, he worked in fast moving consumer goods, whether that was food businesses, or distribution and logistics business, but basically anything that you can get in a supermarket or that gets onto a shelf, somehow, a business either produces that or moves that or stores that.

Andy: 11:18

So he was in business, and your mum was a teacher. So you'd have known exactly what your mum did. How much did you know about what your dad's job was?

Preston Rogers: 11:28

I think as I got older, I probably got more of an appreciation. When I was very young it was probably just I probably knew that my dad went to an office and worked for a business. As I got older, I sort of realised, you know, as he was sort of in charge of certain businesses being the MD, I sort of understood what that meant. And some of the brands that he worked with and businesses that he ran, those were recognisable brands, you could see them in the shops, and then you could get quite a good appreciation of what that meant and sort of what he did.

Andy: 11:56

Yeah, the reason I ask is, it's just occurring to me, the more conversations I have that there are certain roles where it's easier to know what they are as a young person growing up, you see them in public life and other roles it's a bit opaque really, in terms of okay, yeah, they might wear a suit and go off to a building but have no clue beyond that, what they actually do when they're there. And so those roles might not necessarily be in our consciousness, they might not be things that we consider doing because we don't know enough about what they are. The other thing I wanted to ask you then was so what was it like socially growing up in South Africa?

Preston Rogers: 12:28

Yeah, it was probably when I was at primary school was probably before the end of apartheid. So that was a bit of a false existence, just to some extent, in terms of a segregated society. But as you can imagine, with the climate in South Africa outdoors, lots of sunshine, lots of or, you know, very outdoor active lifestyle.

Andy: 12:47

So yeah, so positive environment for you. Yeah. And you mentioned that you had some teachers who were igniting an interest in history, geography and English as you came towards the end of your school day. So what direction did you decide to go in academically? What subjects did you pick? And what did you go on to do?

Preston Rogers: 13:05

So I did sort of a varied sort of maths and sciences, and then some of the humanities with the sort of prescribed languages you had to do. I didn't really know what I wanted to do when I finished school, I was sort of I'd sort of done a bit of everything, but hadn't necessarily had a clear focus. My marks were good enough that I could get into university. But I didn't really have a clear picture of what I wanted to do. But I did know that I enjoyed, you know, I could see myself going into business, but didn't really know what that was going to be and what that meant. So I decided to study quite a generalist, I did a Bachelor of Commerce degree, and I did a marketing management specialisation. But everything was in there accounting, business management, analytics, economics. So it was a good broad qualification. And then I specialised in the fourth year in marketing management. And that's really where I unlocked probably my love of the sort of consumer decision making, you know, how consumers think. And whilst I studied marketing and I never ever worked in a marketing function, a lot of the sales sales roles that I've done, I think some of those fundamentals that I learned at university definitely came through. So I think I, you know, looking back, although I didn't necessarily know what I wanted to do, by the time I left university, I definitely knew the direction I wanted to go.

Andy: 14:13

Okay, how had that played out then? How would you arrived at that sort of increased clarity?

Preston Rogers: 14:19

I think I'd really enjoyed so a lot of the sort of research that I had to do and assignment and sort of dissertation work that I'd had to do it at university was very focused on it was it was a time so this was around end of the 90s. And it was it was a time of change with Google and Amazon and a lot of these companies emerging and it was clear that sort of the way that the world worked today would be quite different in the future. And I found that quite exciting. You know, the way that we would be doing things or buying things would be quite fundamentally different. People couldn't really understand if you had to springboard 20 years into the future. But I remember I did a lot of my assignments on Amazon and then naturally as I guess we'll probably come on to a lot around the car industry and OEMs in the car industry, I was always fascinated by that, it's probably the one thing I definitely got from my father was a love of all things, automotive motoring, you know, from a young age, we would go and watch motor racing. And so I fell in love with cars quite quickly. And when I was at university, I sort of, I didn't necessarily know I was going to end up in the automotive industry. But I, I could also sense that there was a lot of change happening in that industry. And I could sense a lot of change in the world sort of digitally, that was sort of about to happen. And so I sort of left thinking, I want to sort of do something in the space, either in the car space, or I want to, you know, be part of something where the world's changing and somehow get a job that takes me into their direction.

Andy: 15:40

Right. And what was the first opportunity or what, what, after you left university, where did you go? So I applied to a number of places, and actually, I applied to BMW BMW Group for the graduate scheme. And I got through quite close to the final round, but I wasn't successful. And quite interesting, where my journey ended up going after that, but I had my hopes a little bit pinned on that. And it wasn't, wasn't to be. My dad had some connections in the fast moving consumer goods industry. And they said, you can, you can come and start at the bottom, and a company called GlaxoSmithKline, in their consumer goods business, so toothpaste, headache powders, or headache tablets, and basically start as a sales trainee, and go and make sure that all the stores have all the products and and you've got a target and you're part of a sales sort of squad that has to go and get that done and very much at the bottom. So right into packing the shelves full of toothpaste to make target at the end of the month for for the sales representative in my territory. And I had a phenomenally big territory, and I used to have to drive all over. And it was it was interesting, quite a different experience. Okay, you're laughing, which is good. You say it's interesting, which I know if an English person says something is interesting, that can mean a whole host of things. So how long did you do that for?

Preston Rogers: 17:09

A year

Andy: 17:10

And when you look back, were there any learnings you took from that?

Preston Rogers: 17:16

Yeah, I mean, it definitely taught me it was an industry I didn't really want to be in.

Andy: 17:19

Okay, you were able to eliminate it from your inquiries.

Preston Rogers: 17:23

Yes. I mean, I still had this sort of, you know, sort of like a burning desire to be in the automotive industry. So I knew that's probably where I wanted to be. I also found that the people I was interacting with were quite far away from some of the decision makers. So my ability to influence things was was extremely difficult. I was so far down the pecking order that if I wanted to make an impact, or make a change, or do something differently, I just, I was just going to brick wall after brick wall. Yeah, I find that quite, I find that quite frustrating to be honest. The the sales side of the job in terms of having to try and get to a number and do a certain amount to get to a target, I find I find quite enjoyable. I'm quite a competitive person. You've heard from the from the sports, I quite liked that aspect. As I thought that, you know, let's see how well I can do and could be ahead of the person next to me, that bit I found quite engaging, but I didn't enjoy the job the travelling and it was it was a really thankless job. Yeah, and I was still had my, my sort of ears open. And yeah, and then basically, from there, I got an opportunity to go into the automotive industry.

Andy: 18:32

Let's talk about that in two seconds. I just want to observe that for you to have been frustrated about your inability to change things, shows that you must have naturally wanted to change things even in that most junior role, your first ever job, if you like you were saw it as your responsibility to improve the way things were done and sufficiently so that you got frustrated when you weren't able to affect change. So that's quite interesting. But so how did you after a year of that, what opportunity came up that then enabled you to transition into automotive?

Preston Rogers: 19:09

Yeah, so and again, it was, it was a bit of luck involved. So there were two, two girls I'd been at high school with, and we'd been part of a sort of big, big group of friends and I knew her well their mom. And she was very good family friends with a chap called Clive Provo who was at that stage was the Sales Director for BMW Financial Services. And she said, Well, they're looking for people there. And I said to her, I'm doing this job, but it's frustrating. And I'd love to work for, you know, a car company, and she said, Well, they're looking for people at the moment. I'll give him a call. And she phoned Clive, and Clive said, well the job we've got he's very overqualified for and I said, it doesn't matter what the job is. I'll come and do it and I'll figure it out from there. And she said, that's fine. He said, You're going to be bored and you won't enjoy the job. And I said, it doesn't matter. I'm very keen. And I'll, I'll give it a go. And they said, Yes. And I started at BMW FS, I went for interview. Yeah. And I started sort of a year after I'd been at GlaxoSmithKline. And I started in the Customer Services area. So answering the phone, and any customer query they had a team of four people, and you had to really figure it out. And I've still got from that job, I've still got a really big appreciation for anyone that speaks to, to customers to sort their problems out, because it's a lot harder than it seems

Andy: 20:33

That's, yeah, it's fascinating that that's where you started, a number of my guests have started there, or they've passed through that area. And it's become apparent, one of the things that is obviously good on a career journey is exposure to lots of different parts of the business. And if you're in a role where you you're not in a silo, but you're traversing the business and talking to different departments, and being on the phone, listening to customers with a whole range of issues they might have, does the same thing. It gives you an incredible understanding of what how your product's landing out there and what experiences people are having. So I can imagine that being valuable. So how long did you do the customer service role?

Preston Rogers: 21:15

So I did that job probably for about nine months. Yeah, and I remember, customers shouting down the phone. And I had to learn a lot from the people around me. But it was quite a small company at the time, I think it was only 80 people, and probably about 50 or 60 permanent staff. And then the rest of us were contractors at that stage. If I look back now, because it was such a small business, the feedback loop, you know, if you got feedback on what customers were thinking you, you'd literally walk across a couple of desks and you tell someone and say, customers are not happy with this. And they say, Oh, that's interesting, we'll change what we do then. So it was amazing how a small business can be so nimble and be so agile, just because you can get literally immediate feedback on what was happening. And then I got after that I got the opportunity to work in underwriting so in what we used to call the credit department, and basically underwriting customer credit. So, you know, there was a short training you had to go through, but it was very logical, and some of it quite mathematical in terms of affordability calculations for customers. And with that, I had to start interacting with the dealerships, and then I got real appreciation for Okay, so first I dealt with the customers, now I'm dealing with the people who actually sell cars to customers in dealerships, and got a real appreciation for some of their pressures. And, you know, speaking to them and customers coming in, this is what they expect. This is what you've said, you know, it gave me a real appreciation for the credit decision matters, it matters to the customer, it matters to the business, and it's a reflection of the brand. And I learned a lot I think especially in underwriting because I think underwriting is sort of often the beating heart of the onboarding process. That's you know, the first interaction with a customer at a dealership is obviously crucial, but that when that application lands at a financial services business, that's that's where the rubber hits the road, as they say, and I got a real appreciation for that. I was still contracted when I went there. I was made permanent during that time, which I had to fight for a little bit. But I thought I do like this business, it's a good place to work and actually do want to be here. So I pushed quite hard for that. And I've got yeah, I've got sort of one year after I'd been there with a few months after starting in the underwriting role was given a permanent contract.

Andy: 23:24

Yeah, it's interesting how having been told you're overqualified for this job, you're gonna be bored, you're not going to enjoy it, you persisted and took it and it was only nine months before you were doing something else. And nine months might have felt like quite a long time when you're doing it, the younger you are the longer nine months feels, but looking back, it's not a huge length of time to suck it up while you get started in an organisation and then an opportunity came up and you had obviously done enough to be considered appropriate to go into the underwriting team and then use some of your skills there. Also, you weren't afraid to take the contract, it was okay so it's not it's a contracting position. But yeah, I'll take it and I'll work on it when I get there and and that you lent in, you pushed when the opportunity you cared about it so you pushed you know, you leaned in and asked for it. How long did you spend in underwriting?

Preston Rogers: 24:21

It was probably just over a year, so probably

Andy: 24:25

Yeah, it's very cool to think not that long before, you Yeah, probably a year or 15 months, something like that. I mean, I really enjoyed the interaction with the dealership staff. And increasingly, when I was in underwriting used to see the different products that were coming through or the different know, probably three years before, you were in your schemes or plans that we had out there with the dealership for customers, and I remember thinking, certainly these products would be landing pretty well, we'd have good volume on them and others weren't. And I remember thinking, I'm sure we GlaxoSmithKline role frustrated that you couldn't affect change could design some of these to be better. And in speaking to the dealerships and asking questions, you'd hear customers, they actually don't want exactly what we're selling they actually want for example, they want certainty around the residual value of the car, remember South Africa was quite an immature the very junior position. And then now find yourself in a market from that perspective, whereas predominantly what in the UK would be called a hire purchase and then basically a lease purchase market so basically a balloon in HP with a balloon. And actually customers wanted a bit more certainty. And smaller business with this feedback loop that you they wanted a bit more advice about should I take product A or should I take product B. And often they just took a product

Preston Rogers: 27:08

And not long after that Clive's long term because of affordability. And I remember thinking that isn't successor joined the business, a chap called Mike Wetherall. And he joined probably six months, something like that, six months after I'd gone into that job. And I had two amazing years really the best way to be designing some of this. And I mentioned, and the ability to change things, invent things, working for Mike. It was it was a match made in heaven. He was new to the market. He wanted to do a lot of different stuff and sort of, I think Clive, at the time was leaving, and I was get stuff done. And I just put my hand up for everything, which I'm sure he gratefully received. But the learning curve I had was speaking to him a little bit before that. And he sort of left was phenomenal. We, you know, there was a huge entrepreneurial spirit in the business. And we took over BMW driver training, we launched a mortgage business, we did all sorts of cool stuff I thought, maybe there's gonna be an opportunity for me in that we set up remarketing, you know, did a lot of stuff which still exists in that business today. All because he basically said, right, what do we need to do and who's going to do it and, and area. And then I sort of got tapped on the shoulder and they yeah everyone got got stuck in, it was a really great time to be listen to customers, and then come up with something that's if part of the business. And I really I learned a lot from said, well, there isn't really many people left in that Mike, because I think a lot of the structure that I maybe lacked in previous roles, Mike was a real master of structure department now. And I think there was a bit of a void when and discipline, because he'd done operational roles before where you had to be very structured and process orientated and, and very thoughtful of what you did and Clive left and said, Do you want to do you want to start working why you did it. And I learned a lot by bringing sort of the creativity that I was trying to keep bringing to the table, but then have structure of how you how you bring that and and the on sales programmes? And I jumped at the opportunity business was maturing as well, the business was growing quite quickly. So had to start growing up the governance, the processes because I thought, Well, I've been asking for this. I can't had to start to be more robust. So I probably learned those were they want some more certainty around residual values, how do quite, I think it was quite foundational years for me, I learned a lot. Both from Mike but also in that role, where I really say no. And and, yeah, and I was, I mean, if I look got more opportunity. I got a team of people for the first time and did a lot of cool, cool work. It was it was it was back, and I was very young, I mean, I was probably 25 26. And basically if you've got an idea you can you can run with it. If it can make money and it's good for customers. Yeah, go for it.

Andy: 28:58

It sounds like a very exciting environment, very then I was put in charge of the Financial Services sales fortunate to be there with a at a time in the business's history programme for the market. And in some ways, I think that was a where it was growing, where it was still agile and that's not may well still be I'm not suggesting it's not but very we give them that and be in a situation where you can have really good thing I had, I had no, no scars, no preconceived much that it was a time when it was agile and you'd put your hand up at an early age, got yourself into a position, were eager to volunteer for new stuff and you had good experience ideas. I really said what, what is the best solution, but then I leadership in Mike, as you say that operational background. When you know exactly what the business has to do to serve the didn't have experience and of people who've been doing some of customers and all the processes involved, that's a massive advantage. And a number of my guests have come up through that this stuff for 20 years, 30 years. So the learning curve was route and done very well on the back of it. So far sounding like you really landed on your feet and you took responsibility for steep. But I loved the freedom and the creativity the job gave me. more impact. your development if you like and you made the most of those opportunities.

Preston Rogers: 29:57

Yeah, I think so. And I think you know, certainly should be able to help me to give me that opportunities, which I was always very grateful for, you know, my wife and I got married during the time that I was doing that job I've just mentioned. So we we got married in 2006. And it was around that time I can't remember, I think it was probably just before we were married, so Ursula Wingfield, who was the CEO of that business at the time, she said to me, we're looking for some people who might want to go abroad, and would I be interested in in doing an international assignment. And that was I remember that day quite well, when I went home and said, there may be an opportunity to go abroad. And yeah, and I think it was just my wife and I, we didn't have kids yet. We thought it sounds quite exciting. Maybe we should, maybe we should give that a go. And it was always a source of comedy between Mike and I, because it wasn't that long after he joined, where I'd sort of said, Yes, I will go, but we'll wait for the right thing to come up. And he said, I've just arrived, and you've told me you may be going. But it ended up being quite some time before the right opportunity came up. Because I sort of learned that if you just put your hand up and said I'll do anything, then you would sort of be sent where it may be great for the company, but not necessarily great for you. And that I wanted to get that balance right. So I probably held back a little bit to say, I need to think through where it would be good for me. And I'll probably recognise that if the change was too big maybe personally in terms of language and, and culture that I probably didn't have enough business experience in the tank to be able to overcome that. So I probably needed to be somewhere where at least language and culture maybe wouldn't be a barrier. And then I could still and I probably recognised, at the time, I probably would have said I was I was invincible. Because we all we all feel like we're invincible in our twenties. But I think if I reflect back, I think it was it was good to take my time. And I probably took counsel from people who helped me when they said you need to think through how you approach this. When you put your hand up, things will move quite quickly, and you'll be along for the ride a little bit.

Andy: 32:04

Let me take a moment to tell you about our sponsor. Could you use some additional experience resources who can work alongside you and your team on a flexible basis to help you achieve your priorities? I started Aquilae in 2016 and since then, we've worked internationally with established automotive OEMs, EV startups, fintechs, and insurance companies to achieve their unique mobility goals. Aquilae team members are highly experienced senior leaders with complementary areas of expertise who've run businesses and divisions internationally in our industry. Because we've all had many years experience of operating in the industry ourselves, we don't just advise our clients on what to do, instead,we tend to work alongside them delivering their specific projects. We're happy to develop strategy, and we're equally happy to then get involved delivering the plan. Mobility businesses are all about people, processes and technology. We leverage our Aquilae Academy for people development, and Aquilae Consulting for those wider business topics. To give you some examples of the sort of work we do through the Aquilae Academy, we work with CEOs and their first line to develop cohesive leadership teams. We create continuous learning environments for leadership development, we develop bespoke programmes to improve the performance of specific teams and we provide one to one coaching for high performing individuals. To give you some examples of the sort of work we do through Aquilae Consulting, we help create paperless digital end to end customer journeys for direct to consumer finance and subscription models. We conduct strategic reviews. For example, one client asked us what's the best financial services structure for each market we operate in? We produce feasibility studies for new market entry, we advise on and support regulatory applications. We help design implement and monitor regulatory compliance procedures. We run tenders and vendor selection projects, we conduct end to end operational reviews to improve effectiveness and efficiency. If you're looking for some help with people or business topics, and you like the idea of having some additional very experienced resources, who can work flexibly alongside you, please get in touch with me for a conversation. You can email me directly at andy@aquilae.co.uk Okay, let's get back to our episode. So you hadn't had the conversation with your wife beforehand, it was when Ursula brought it up, that was when it first put the idea into your head and started you thinking about it at home. It's a really interesting thought that of, okay, I'm gonna change some things, there's gonna be a change, but in how many dimensions am I wise to accept the change or take on the change? Okay, so if the culture is similar, if I've got the language, then I can go and my moderate amount of business experience will be enough I'll be able to play to some of those other strengths, but don't shake up too many things all at once. It's like a managed risk, isn't it? Really, it's a calculated risk that you're you're taking going into a new environment. So where did where was the first acceptable opportunity? How did you find out about it? And what was the reality like when you went home and spoke to your wife?

Preston Rogers: 35:11

I think there were a few jobs that came up. But they were sort of quite vague opportunities. And I think if I'd have, if I'd have pushed hard, maybe there could have become reality. But there were more just sort of jobs being sent across. And if anyone really put their hand up, you could have been on to one of those in some far flung places. And I sort of kept my head down a little bit. And then an opportunity came up in the UK, they'd recently set up the Alphera business, which is sort of the multimake division of BMW Financial Services, they'd recently launched that. That had been going for quite some time in South Africa, where they had realised that they had a lot of customers who there was probably an anti bank sentiment in South Africa. So I think they quite liked almost a niche player where they said, You do my car finance, you do it really well, I may not be buying another BMW, but actually I'd still like you to do the finance because I really enjoyed dealing with you. And I trust you. So South Africa had established the Alphera brand for quite some time. So I thought, well, that sounds pretty good. And they needed someone to basically be a pricing manager and do sort of sales analysis and sort of be the conduit on the side of the sales team. So I thought, I know the sales side. So it'd be quite good to have the pricing string to my bow, and I'd started doing some early pricing work in South Africa, and I quite enjoyed it, it was quite mathematical. So I enjoyed that. And I remember, so my wife and I decided it was it was a good opportunity. We thought the UK made a lot of sense you know, South Africa used to be a British colony years ago. So a lot of the culture and even style of how people would interact with each other. A lot of it is very Anglo Saxon. So I thought this, this sounds like it could work. And actually, the interview was a day when it was a bank holiday in South Africa. So I remember I had to I to get set up with the IT guy, we had one video conferencing room, and I had to make 100% sure that I knew exactly how everything would work, because I was gonna have to come in on my own to the office with no one else there on a bank holiday to do my interview in my suit, which I did and everything went smoothly. Yeah, the interview went well. And they said, Yeah, we can offer you a job in the UK and I went for what they call a look and see trip, which was basically come and find a place to live and here's where the office is and we'll get you set up and away you go. And I remember it happened pretty quickly. It was a bit of a whirlwind, I think was sort of two, maybe three months and our furniture was on a container. And away we went, Yeah.

Andy: 37:30

And your wife was happy to go on this adventure?

Preston Rogers: 37:33

Yeah, I think we were both you know, I think, yeah, I think your perspective changes a lot when you have children. And if it's just the two of you, if you're on your own, or if it's just you and your partner, I think it's much easier to make those decisions. I think when you come from South Africa, South Africa is an amazing place to be and to live. But it's it's quite a small economy in the grand scheme of the global environment. So you always sort of had that feeling of if you really want to make it, you've maybe got to spread your wings and go abroad. So we were both we were both up for it. And my wife was she was at Accenture at the time, she would have the right to work as well in the UK. So we thought, yeah, give it a go.

Andy: 38:09

And were you right, in terms of your assumptions about the culture and being able to slot in? How was the transition?

Preston Rogers: 38:19

I think business is conducted in a very similar way in the UK and in South Africa. So from that perspective, the way that the customers were interacted with the dealerships would interact with the finance company was very, very similar. So that that was quite a good grounding. I remember Mike said something which stayed with me forever. Before I left, he said, It's all the same stuff. He said, It doesn't matter where you go, he said it's all the same stuff. You have to be able to make money from what you sell, you have to be able to interact with your the people you business partner with. And from an OEM car perspective, you know, if you're selling finance the finance has to be attractive to customers, it's all the same stuff. He said, Don't think you won't know what to do. And I remember having an overwhelming sense of I'm just not going to know what to do, because it's all different. And I remember thinking, I won't know what to do. And then I remember it was it, I just did know what to do. It was It was strange. I can't sort of

Andy: 39:12

So it wasn't as daunting. It wasn't as scary in real life as it might have been, my words, not yours. But yeah, yeah, it was some of the things you worried about some of the things you might have felt a bit anxious about in advance turned out actually not to be a problem at all.

Preston Rogers: 39:27

Yeah, and I remember and it was, the market was, I mean, I remember the one thing that did strike me, the market was much bigger than I was used to. And the market was much more competitive than I was used to. So you know, it was much harder to establish a niche in the in the market and really dominate that space. The competition was intense and fierce from other finance companies from other car companies. And it was bigger so the impact your decisions made good and bad would be materially bigger. Yeah, but I remember quite quickly looking and finding things and thinking yeah, am I right when I if I see something, is they're telling me we have a problem in this area and and it probably took a month or two. And I sort of stopped doubting myself and thought no, you, you do know the right things to do here and you start to establish a network of people within the business that you trust and that you can have the right conversations with and that you can drive the business forward with right across the business. Did that and then got into the swing of it, I suppose.

Andy: 40:21

It's interesting. I'm hearing that, that one example, the job that you were told might not be particularly engaging lasted only nine months. So it's not unusual that you think about something in advanced and you can finally decide to do it or you commit to it and it turns out that the bad thing doesn't last as long as you think it might. And the other is that the potential concern over being able to do something, how different is it going to be, again, can be out of perspective. So it wasn't as tough to understand as you thought it might have been. Really interesting these thoughts, because I'm sure they're not, you know, you're not alone having those thoughts before you embark on something new and often it's the difficult part is shorter and less difficult than we think it is before we take the plunge. But you don't find out unless you take the plunge.

Preston Rogers: 41:13

Yeah, and I think some of that's also, you know, I was probably maturing, you know, both from a personal and from a business perspective. And I think some of that self doubt that inevitably creeps in, as you get older, you have more experiences, you've tried more things that haven't worked. So your ability to just think that you're that you're bulletproof, or you're unstoppable. And I've said I've always taken you know I've managed people quite early on in their careers, I really try and take them off the leash, because that's where you get people sort of, you know, unbridled energy, just great ideas, huge amounts of energy, enthusiasm. And I saw that myself, as you get older, not that it gets sort of beaten out of you, but you, you have more scars, you you've tried more things that have failed, the enormity of of a decision becomes more evident. And I think that's part of growing up in the organisation, maturity of business thought, but I think that was probably one of the first times that I felt a lot more responsible for stuff where it wasn't just coming up with new things and trying new things. It was actually now you're in charge of the pricing. So if it doesn't, the business doesn't make money, we will be phoning you.

Andy: 42:23

It's a big market. So you can get it wrong in quite a big way, with a few noughts on the end. While you're saying that, I do think it's interesting about the invincibility of youth and all the energy and enthusiasm that comes and then that gets tempered a little bit by as you say, if things haven't worked out, if things have gone wrong more times as you get older? So you're a little bit more circumspect about just being you're not as gung ho about it, it's okay, hang on a minute. What might happen here that I've seen before? Is there an example you can give of something that did go wrong that you know, you've learned a valuable lesson from?

Preston Rogers: 43:03

When I was doing that role so that was in 2008 and the world did go a little bit wrong.

Andy: 43:08

Oh, my goodness, that wasn't you was it?

Preston Rogers: 43:16

So yeah, and and yeah, so 2008, the business was, was very young and had enjoyed phenomenal growth from the sort of start in was about mid 2006. And slowly, the market was getting more and more difficult as approaching the financial crisis. And as we got into the financial crisis, I remember having sort of meetings where, you know, liquidity for all financial services businesses was was difficult. And there was a time where they decided to pull a certain amount of liquidity away from the Alphera business so it wasn't BMW Financial Services for BMW dealerships or BMW customers. And as a protection mechanism, it was decided that there'd be a period where there wouldn't be the same level of liquidity given to the Alphera business. So overnight, the business was doing 80% less business than it used to. And I remember that was quite a big oh dear moment that I had, and we'd just bought a house in the UK. And my, my wife at the time was working for PWC in mergers and acquisitions and mergers and acquisitions stopped overnight, as well. And I remember I remember once phoning my dad in South Africa and I said to him, I think we might be in trouble because the business I'm involved in that part of the business didn't look nearly as certain as it did six months before that and and even what my wife was doing the time suddenly didn't look as as certain and you know, you every day you open the paper or went online you just saw job losses and you know, chaos and you know, the crisis was was real and you know, will be remembered forever. And I remember that the enormity of that was big and I remember having to sort of almost come up with a plan of how we were going to relaunch and almost save the business together with the the head of the Alphera business and and I think that year from sort of late 2008, to the end of 2009, I think it's probably the most fundamental bit of what I learned because you had to, down to the penny almost fundamentally understand the business end to end, when you're having to come up with a plan of how you get things, right. And you know, I can remember conversations with salespeople where you said, the portfolio, the overall size of the business has to start growing, or it's never going to make money. And you had to say to people, we've got to get more contracts. And they said, well, markets not great. And you said, well, let's come up with something together. And it was a real sort of lots of steps into the unknown. If I look back, now, it's one of the best times, if I look back, it was probably when I was there, I think it was pressure was huge. But if I look back, the people who still work in that business today have got such a strong emotional attachment to that business, because they had to really walk through fire to help grow that businesses and make it the successful business it is today. And I was, I was proud to be a part of that. And I think I learned a lot about, you know, foundationally, for me, for the jobs I did after that, that was really important. I probably didn't realise that at the time, because you don't know what you're going to be doing. Sometimes, when you're in when you're in your current role, but I've learnt a lot and a lot of what I do today, and how focused I am on the financials of the business and how what we do flows in and, you know, it has to be a sustainable business to make money and off the right things for customers, etc. A lot of that's foundational, I think to that time and that job that I did.

Andy: 46:30

So it was really not guaranteed, what would happen, then. So very challenging time, doesn't sound like it was a particular mistake of yours or a failing of yours, it was a very challenging period in your career that you learned a lot from, and that having been on, you know, what you considered at the time to be at the brink, if you like the phone calls home to say this isn't looking too, too rosy. And to then build it back from there, obviously leaves strong and lasting memories and influences the way you look at business and creating a sustainable business today. You also mentioned a little while ago in the conversation, and I wanted to go back, you mentioned the very first time you had people responsibility happened when you're in South Africa. And then you mentioned how you like to take young people and sort of let them off the leash a little bit because they have such enthusiasm and such great new ideas and energy. So talk a little bit about you as a leader, and how your understanding of that part of your role has evolved.

Preston Rogers: 47:33

Yeah, I mean, I, I love managing people, leading people, it's one of the best parts of the job in my opinion, I love seeing people fulfil their potential and see people do things beyond what they thought was possible. I went to a training course in 2006 with a chap called Ed Eppley. And I remember he had a saying, which was, you have to produce results and grow people, that always stuck with me. I think the next phase of that, and I'll come on to that now is sort of people through people, which I think is obviously, you know, that's the hardest bit of managing where you can't just directly manage the people, you have to you have to have, you know, you have teams that sit under other managers and can't undermine what they do. But you need to affect the whole team culturally, or in terms of performance. So I've always, maybe to a fault, believed the best of peopl. I always think there's a lot of, there's a lot of good in people, and there's a lot that they can bring to the table, it's just about finding what will unlock that, and what gets people out of bed, and what will get people motivated to fulfil their potential. I think I've also probably been very fortunate to have worked for some very people that have inspired me, and I'll probably try and mirror that a little bit. I try and, you know, not through what I do, but in terms of through setting up an environment that can allow people to fulfil their potential, because I've always thought the best teams I've ever either worked in or definitely managed is when everyone is facing the same direction. Everyone knows what they want to do. There's a shared purpose, shared culture, shared, you know, ideals, and everyone achieves beyond what they thought was capable. And that's where the magic happens, where sometimes you step back, and you're, I can't believe how well we've done with that. But that's down to the people. Because the market gives everyone the same opportunities I've always thought, whether that's good or bad, but how you how you do against that is it's always down to the people. It's always down to, you know, whether you've thought about what people want, and you build the right systems or whether that's you've designed the right products or whether that's you've thought about what the customer wants. So I think you know, in terms of trying to inspire people to be their best because I've had some great leaders I've worked for who've pushed me beyond what I thought I was capable on. And I've probably mirrored that a little bit but I I find that the most rewarding part of the job I think when if I see somebody fulfilling their potential or they're so happy and engaged in their work, I get a good good buzz from it.

Andy: 49:51

Oh, wow, big round of applause from my side. Love it. So you sound like the sort of person who would whose default will be to trust someone until they lose it rather than, okay, I'm not going to trust you until you've earned it. A big part of the role, one that you really enjoy, creating an environment where people can fulfil their potential. And believing that people are the differentiator and the market, the market is the playground, if you like, it's the same for everyone. And it's gonna be the people that make the difference. After the crisis, then you said you learned a lot from from the crisis. So you were relatively new into the UK at that point. You said the business was only a couple of years old at that time. So take us from there, Preston, please. Now, that sounds like a good position to be in. Yeah, to

Preston Rogers: 50:43

So, yeah, I think through the end of 2009, our business was performing really well. And I was I was quite engaged with that. And up until the time that I got a call to go back to South Africa I probably thought I was going to extend my contract in the UK, and that maybe would stay permanently in the UK. So I got a call, again, from Clive who was back in South Africa, as a CEO, who asked me if I wanted to come back and head up the sales area for BMW Financial Services. My wife was pregnant at the time with our first child, and it was a big decision for us. And I'm not, you know, you still never know you can't go backwards in life, whether it was the right decision or not to go back, I probably believe it is, you know, we had, my wife had a difficult childbirth with our first and second child, both born in South Africa, we had a much bigger support structure there. And I think that's, I think that's the way things were supposed to happen. You know, professionally, I went back, middle of 2010, took over the sales area, and was ultimately responsible for the whole all the brands and insurance and wholesale funding and Alphera. You know, and loved that job. Some of the best people who've gone on most have gone on to bigger and better things, we used to joke and call it the dream team, because everyone was in the zone, knew exactly what they wanted to achieve. Everything worked sort of symbiotically with each areas, we had made a great finance department, great operations department, the business was in really, in a great place, and I probably a lot of fun during that time, because it was a great environment, I was working with people I really enjoyed working with. In the back of my mind and if I come back to when that decision was difficult to go back to South Africa, probably after about two years of being back in South Africa, we knew that probably our long term future wasn't there. And that we did probably want to move back to the UK and settle in the UK. So from probably we moved back to the UK in 2015, ultimately, but probably the two or three years before that I was sort of actively trying to get something again with with the BMW Group to go back across. But I was now in a senior position on the first line reporting to the CEO, so to get those types of jobs wasn't very easy. And there were lots of other extremely capable people in the UK business and abroad, expats who were all looking for the same jobs, and I was so from a long term perspective, I was I was probably quite worried about what I was going to be doing next. But the job I was doing at that time, I loved working with a dealer staff, the owners of the businesses, you know, phenomenal time really enjoyed it. A lot of the stuff that I first started working on with Mike Wetherall in 2006, and seven, hadn't then sort of borne fruit. And then I was sort of basically what was then Mike's job, once he moved to another market, and basically got to come back and what you'd worked on a few years previously is now take all of that forward again. So it was it was really enjoyable. So, you know, I was working on stuff that I'd helped rolled out and embedded in the market. What was it that made create years before. So I believed in that stuff, and was you decide that long term, our future lies outside of South working with teams of people who believed in that stuff. Africa? You know, if I, if I look at you know, my I think my parents both had a relatively modest upbringing, and they worked really hard to give my sister and I a lot of opportunity. And I think my wife and I's thinking on that, I think definitely changed when we had kids and we we said there is probably more opportunity for them if we were in the UK than there would be in South Africa. The UK is, you know, a huge economy and the opportunities are probably bigger, more very broader than they would get and we probably decided that as a family it was it was the right place for us to to be We'd lived there before so we didn't necessarily look at other opportunities. I don't think or maybe I just just can't recall. But yeah, we we probably decided that was the driver. If I come back, you know, really wanting to give them sort of every opportunity that we could and you know, South Africa does have it's far away from the rest of the world and is a much smaller player and probably having having had a taste of you know, one of the biggest markets in the automotive world it was like, Yeah, that's probably where we want to be.

Andy: 55:02

It was the obvious choice for you, then. Yeah. And you said at this stage, you're now in a more senior position, firstline position reporting to the CEO, finding a job to slot into overseas is more challenging. And of course, if you've really set your heart on one location, one market, and you're competing against the talented people there, what happened in the end, and how did you get back?

Preston Rogers: 55:26

The person who was heading up the Alphera business at the time left the organisation to go to the VW group. And I had sort of ongoing dialogue with the then CEO Ian Smith. And as luck would have it, Mike Dennett took over the UK financial services business in early 2015. And I'd worked with him as when he was the CFO in the South African operation in 2010. We'd only sort of crossed paths for about six to nine months after I was back, but I knew him well enough. And we struck up quite a good working relationship. And I phoned him and I said, Look, I'm dead keen to come back. Just tell me what you want to do and do it. But I did a bit of an assumptive close. And it was really touch and go, I mean, we'd put we'd already put our furniture on a boat to come back

Andy: 56:13

That is assumptive

Preston Rogers: 56:17

And I'd said, and I'd spoken, you know, Clive was still in the South African business at the time. And I remember saying to him, it'll either happen or it won't happen. And either I'll resign, and I'll have to see how I get on on my own.

Andy: 56:30

But you were heading back, as far as you were concerned you were heading back to the UK. Your stuff was on a boat.

Preston Rogers: 56:35

Yeah, yeah. So and, you know, again, I think,

Andy: 56:36

Yeah, I'm sure it was. And yeah, great commitment from you, you know, very fortunate that I got an opportunity to come back, there was a movement of people. And I got to take over the BMW FS sales role working for Bob Jordan, who was the sales and as you say that some elements were easier that you knew the marketing director. And yeah, I got yeah got across in late 2015. Very emotional time, far more emotional than the first time we'd left South Africa, because we knew we weren't going back this time. And I was, you know, doing almost trying to do people, you're going to come back and work with, assuming you two jobs, because I was trying to get up to speed on the new role, finishing off the old role, moving, my daughter was only eight months old, and yeah, very emotional time for the family, and then obviously having to then start and did manage to get back into the UK business here. But you also straight to work. I think, again, the way things work out, I'm fortunate that I knew quite a lot of people within the business so my sort of landing wasn't quite as bumpy as it could have been. And we still had our house in the UK, which knew where you're gonna live. And there were some, not so many did make it easy to sort of know where we were going to live. So the unknown of what we had to face the first time, you know, where were you going to live? How do you get around? How does unknowns this time around, but the much harder recognition that everything work? We knew all of that. So we could just to some extent, get back in and get going. So so that that side of things, but I think the emotional leaving, sort of then knowing we weren't going to go back was was quite difficult. this was going to be for longer. This was intended to be a permanent move now, yeah. And you did get back into the business in the pricing role reporting to Bob Jordan. So tell us about the journey from there.

Preston Rogers: 58:29

So I had all the sales teams. And it was it was a great role. So I didn't, I didn't know, because I'd worked for the Alphera business previous, I didn't actually have almost any relationships on the BMW dealers side, because I hadn't really interacted with them. So I had to build a lot of relationships in quite a short space of time. And I think at that stage, there were probably 140 businesses with 45 different groups that would represent those 140 businesses. And like everything in life, you want it to take three months, and it takes 12 months. So I remember being a bit frustrated with how long it was was taking. But I got a lot of good counsel from Bob, who I was working for at the time, in terms of the key decision makers, and who I needed to sort of get on site quite quickly. The fact that I'd worked in the UK before didn't really count for anything, I was a new entity for these people, and they would make their own minds up as to whether I was a good thing for their business or a bad thing for their business. And again, I think, you know, I really, I really enjoyed that role. I had a great sales team, you know, having to work with the new sales company organisation with BMW UK and MINI UK, the UK's the biggest market for MINI in the world. In a lot of countries it would be sort of BMW first, second, third and MINI fourth. In the UK they are both huge and successful businesses. So that was that dynamic was quite different for me. I had to really focus on two brands at the same time, but really enjoyed the role. You know, the team were phenomenal. Set a lot of records and it was it was it was good fun, you know, good time. But a couple years into the job, I just thought I've done this before. And it's, it's the same stuff. As much as I was enjoying it, I really enjoyed the team, I just thought it's the same stuff. And when Bob Jordan retired, and I didn't get his job, I thought I can't keep doing this job because it's the same stuff. So I put my hand up and said, I'd like to do something different. And I, I did all the peripheral areas, which were basically anything from training to some of the pricing stuff, marketing, there was a newly established digital team, which I would take into a different phase later on. And I did that, and again, a great group of people, but I was sort of increasingly feeling like I've done this before. And I suppose if I, if I reflect on on that now, probably to try and get that feeling back that I had, when I first started working, where you had a role, you could spread your wings a little bit more. But it gets, it's obviously much harder to do that the higher up the organisation you go, because it is so much more around why we're doing things, how we're doing things, especially financial services businesses are now increasingly compliance focused organisations. And then that's not to say that there's organisations that are doing something that was wrong in the past, but there's a lot more check and balance today than there was then. And that comes with a lot of focus and attention consciously beyond what's what's the next big thing. And that you have, that has to be one of many different things that you focus on at the same time. So I was, I was probably feeling after about four or five years back in the UK, I was probably feeling a little bit lost, career wise, and probably not really knowing where I was going, I think I was considered quite valuable. But I wasn't at the top table, which was sort of increasingly frustrating. And I think what probably kept me going was, I was still doing interesting work and are still working with some great people and running some great teams, which was, you know, still giving me the right sort of energy. But personally, I was feeling like, I probably need a bit more. So just before COVID, I, again, I put my hand up and said I need to do something different. And my then boss Phil Kerry, basically put together all the areas that needed something new and different, put those together, and said, right, you can do the digital team, team that's going to do some new car, some used car innovation topics, and then some established teams. And it was such an interesting time for me because I had four completely different teams doing completely different stuff. And the way that they came together was quite again, was quite inspiring for me, people with not competing interests, but it was not very much commonality about what they were working on came together to help each other. Whether that was the COVID dynamic or whether that was the environment where we tried to create a bit of a feeling that we were we were trying to do something meaningful.

Andy: 1:02:36

Can we just pause? Can we just jump in there? So was Phil responding to your requirement, your request to have you needed something some novelty? You needed some new stuff to get your teeth in? Was that an attempt to try and give you some different things to engage you?

Preston Rogers: 1:02:55

Yeah, yeah, I think so. Ah, you? And, you know, it was funny because the digital team was a team that was basically trying to come up with sort of new ways that we could power some online financial services stuff that we were doing together with a sales company, and it was going to basically be the engine that was going to power online sales. And then because of COVID, that became a quite interesting and cool project that we were working on just suddenly being almost the most important project that financial services was working on overnight, because you suddenly had to be able to sell remotely and everything suddenly had to be online and everything had to be able to be delivered to a customer digitally. So that was probably a good thing for the business that, you know, I probably had quite a lot of background and experience to be able to manage that team. But you know, the work that they did was phenomenal, really creative, quite eclectic group of people that work in that area that really challenged the status quo and how we were going to do some stuff and work in an extremely agile way. So I think, yeah, I think it was good for Phil to give me sort of something different to go at. And, you know, again, with all the home pressures that came with COVID and home schooling and working overnight, it was it a fortunate thing that I was in a role which didn't have massive operational responsibility. Probably if I look back, you know, I think things happen the way they're supposed to. And I think that was probably quite a fortunate position. Because I, I didn't have an area that had constant operational challenges or huge targets to fulfil in a very challenging market, there was a lot of exploratory work, which and actually dealing with COVID that was probably quite a good time to be doing exploratory work because you had a bit more time to think and to design and to plan and I had a good group of people around me so I think it probably worked out the way where it was supposed to. But sort of into 2021 there was movement within our Alphabet business, and they were looking for a new commercial director. So I put my hat in the ring for that, wasn't successful but sort of got the person's job who was successful. So I got to I got lucky loser, I got to take over the Alphera business, which was I mean I would have been the Alphabet job extremely interesting. It's it, in my expertise it will probably always be more on the retail than the finance side, I would have loved to have grown my skills in that area. But in some ways Alphera was a bit like coming home for me, because that was the business that I'd worked in during the crisis. And there was still quite a lot of the same people there. You know, the National Sales Manager that's there, he was he was there during the crisis was one of the people who sort of helped save the business at that time, along with some of the great field people that they've got. So it felt like a natural fit for me. And it's a again, it's a role that competes in the open market, it has doesn't have the brand behind it. So I quite like that sort of cut and thrust of competition, they've got a really good team. So for me, it was important to get back to the top table. So it was important for me to be sort of where the decisions were getting made rather than having to hear things secondhand. Because it doesn't matter how good your manager is secondhand secondhand, so you don't quite get that feel for the room in the same way you do that, you know,

Andy: 1:05:55

No and that goes back, because of the conversation we're having now, we know that goes right back to stacking toothpaste on the shelves in the supermarket with you. You want to be where the decisions are being made. Yeah. So it all stacks up. Excuse the unintentional pun. Yeah, so the other thing I just want to say when you have this role with where your manager brought together four different areas during COVID. And you said what you liked was how the teams came together. Were they all reporting to you? Yeah, they were and they were doing very different things. But you managed to create a team out of them.

Preston Rogers: 1:06:39

Yeah. Yeah. And people in very different stages of life as well all doing quite different roles, and they really pulled together amazingly. It was a really good it was a really good time. So I was sort of sad yeah sad to leave that team, but happy that I'd got an opportunity to get probably to where I wanted to be in the organisation.

Andy: 1:06:58

Okay, before I let you go there, if you don't mind. I'm just curious, because you already said earlier in the conversation, a little bit about your philosophy of creating an environment where people can be fulfilled and perform at a higher level. And what did you do intentionally with this group of four different teams coming together that ended up with it being and I can tell from looking at you describing it, you have got some really powerful happy memories and pride a sense of pride about that period. And those teams and that team what they became. So what did you do to create that?

Preston Rogers: 1:07:33

I think some of it was about, I think those groups of people probably just hadn't interacted on each other's topics before. Because they were put all together in one team, where I was trying to almost bring all of those topics into one place. Actually, there was a lot of just cross pollination, we created almost a sense of self of shared purpose. And actually it was it was quite organic, people actually started reaching out across the teams without me having to prompt it where they said, I think I can help you with that, or I've seen something like that before. Here's what I've seen happen, here's what I think would work. But that wasn't without me prompting. But I think that sort of shared sense of purpose that we're all working on important stuff, but it's all really different stuff. But we're one team. So we've got to try and help each other. But no more than that. But people almost feeling enough shared sense of purpose. And some of it's a little bit situational, maybe with COVID, because everyone was probably a lot more immersed in the online, where we were suddenly all together, almost having to force that with COVID. And everyone having to be sort of online where I maybe had to force some more of those sort of team dynamics rather than seeing people individually if you were in an office setting where we almost had to bring people together relatively often to work as a team, what what is our sort of shared output or shared goal or shared sort of sense of what do we bring to the table as as a team? And it was it was quite organic, I think the right set of people and skills and experience, not necessarily designed that way. But I think it was a really good time.

Andy: 1:09:02

Yeah. Okay, thank you. So you'd got to this point then, you found yourself now, you've gone for the Alphabet Commercial Officer job, hadn't got it, but had then taken the role of the person who did get it. So you now found yourself head of Alphera which was a business which was close to your heart that you'd been involved with before? What caused you then to sort of make your next steps?

Preston Rogers: 1:09:25

Yeah, so I really enjoyed the Alphera job, again I had a great group of people, one of the people I took across from that sort of innovation team that I had to look at the sales development stuff, had a great sales team and great field people and really got the business to sort of the Alphera business sometimes, because it's quite a different business within the BMW Group it sometimes sit's on an island a little bit and I really brought that team closer to the rest of the organisation. So stop trying to do it all yourselves or feel like it's you against the world. There are a lot of people out there that can help you to achieve there's a lot of good people working on the same stuff that we're working on, we need to try and leverage that because we don't have all the answers. We don't have all the perspectives. And actually, you know, I mean, I've always thought that, you know, even if you think you've got the best way to do something, someone else has got a better way, or a different way. And that will get you thinking. So I think it's a really, really good and successful business. I also believe that if you don't need to change something, don't change it, if things are going well, then then you can leave them going well. And as much as I enjoyed the role, probably after about a year in the role, again, probably when I reflected, I probably thought I sort of know how to do this. And for me, personally, I was sort of, again, not feeling that sense of, not that it was maybe not different enough, but wasn't it giving me development and stretch that I was probably looking for. So again, probably really enjoying the role really, during the people I was working with, really enjoying the wider sort of management team that I was on, some of the best people in the industry, but personally probably feeling like what's next for me. And during that time, I was contacted about potential international assignment. And as a family, we we wrestled with that. It was probably in a market that wasn't necessarily right for us, my my daughter's got a severe nut allergy, and was probably in a in a place in the world where that would be a real challenge. So in some ways that made that decision easy, but it really made us reflect on do we want to do international assignments. And I probably realised that if I really wanted to get higher up within BMW Group organisation that was gonna have to be something I was going to have to be comfortable with potentially being internationally mobile. And we probably decided that that wasn't what we wanted as a family and that our sort of children are at that age now where probably that stability in their schooling and again, that's all it's always personal perspective, because it people will have different perspectives on this. And we probably felt that stability for the next 5 10 years was quite important for us. So I decided to withdraw from that process. But it really made me reflect on whether it was I was still in the right in the right company, if I was going to fulfil my potential. So I, you know, again, I think that that's where the trade off, you know, there would have been jobs at BMW Group I probably could have still done, could have been okay for the business and for me, but I sort of got, then I got tapped on the shoulder externally. But I had a deep sense of loyalty to the BMW Group. So it was an interesting role, the role I'm in now, at the Lloyds Banking Group looking after the Jaguar Land Rover FS business. And I remember even before the final interview, I'm remember saying to my wife, I'm not sure if I'm going to go even if they offer me the job. And I remember clearly I remember saying that. And I don't know if that was because I'd been with BMW Group for so long, that I almost couldn't imagine what it would be like if I wasn't working there. But when they did offer me the job, I probably knew that if I was going to develop professionally, that it was probably something that I needed to do, you know, Black Horse and that's where I am, you know, they are the biggest player in the market. And it's very different business. I've been amazed by how differently someone that I competed against when I was on the other side for so long, how differently things work. But it's also filled with great people, great ethos, great culture. And I think the driver for me was was probably the professional development, how can I keep feeling like I'm moving forward?

Andy: 1:13:11

And just going back to this concept that before you make the move, like when you were back in South Africa, coming to the UK for the first time, and you're wondering what it was going to be like and Mike Wetherall said look, it's not that much difference it's all the same stuff. When you were leaving BMW after how many years was it?

Preston Rogers: 1:13:32

Six months shy of 20 years

Andy: 1:13:34

Wow. Okay. And how long have you been in your new role?

Preston Rogers: 1:13:38

Nine months

Andy: 1:13:40

Has it been easier or harder than what you thought it was going to be or just different?

Preston Rogers: 1:13:47

I think obviously, building a network within a business at a senior level is important. You've got to quickly understand how things work. And you've got to understand how decisions are made, you've got to understand how the different components of the business are, how they you know, whether that's you know, financials or financial services business the risk elements, how the conduct customer conduct bits are treated. And for me, the biggest difference has probably been the bank versus non bank dynamic where that's certainly different. Probably the OEM owned versus and obviously whilst I'm working on a captive business now in the Lloyds Bank Group is a white label partner forJLRFS so again, that's it's a nuanced difference. But there is a there is a slight difference, not better or worse, just different. So for me, I've found that especially the establishing a network, completely new relationships, whether that's within the OEM side, within the dealer side, you know, figuring out the lie of the land, you know what our customers think what, what the retailer's think, yeah, it's been quite a steep learning curve. You know, some things are better than what I've experienced in the past, some things aren't that's, that's probably true of any business. I think yeah, that's probably been the biggest learning curve has been having no network again,

Andy: 1:16:07

Yeah, yeah. I think there's a number of things you can pick out looking back over your story that will have and having to build that from scratch and seeing some things helped, the example where you, you moved from Alphera into the and maybe finding them frustrating, but there's a way BMW side, and suddenly there's 140 BMW dealers that you needed to get to know who didn't care whether you'd been in the there's a reason that they work like that, and again you have to business before, they were going to make their own mind up. So you've got that's similar when you move into a new brand. We understand that before you can try and influence or change talk a lot about networks in these conversations and how important they are. It really brings it home, though, your that. And there's some things that work amazingly well, some example of when you move at a senior level into another things you need to say that, you know, I need to get in the organisation, and you don't have a network in that organisation, you've got to start from scratch that really brings it home the slipstream of that or I need to support that and keep that fundamental value of that. Is there anything I haven't asked you, Preston that I've missed an opportunity to get a story or a going. In terms of the famous Mike Wetherall comment, it is golden nugget?

Preston Rogers: 1:16:59

Maybe just another reflection when I was all the same stuff, I think that's probably true of I think thinking about today. I mean, I think, you know, whilst, you know, we talk about, you know, networks and developing yourself career wise and stuff like that. I mean, when I reflected, I in a certain after you've been worked for a certain amount of think the thing that's probably been the biggest success factor for me, if you like, is the sort of support I've had at home. You time, the business skills are, you know, your ability to react know, my wife's also got a career which has been interrupted when we've had kids, and to balance that and all the to change and manage people, drive performance and, you know, things that come with, with kids and childcare, you know, when I've had to travel and when we've moved internationally and get people focusing on the right topics, that stuff for me stuff like that, I think that support, you know, knowing that you've got that behind you I think is also a big factor. You doesn't go away. And that is always the most important know, and I don't think not to be underplayed, I think, you know, having confidence in what's happening at home when differentiator, because you can have the best products in the you're working, I think is probably one thing I probably just reflected on, which we didn't necessarily get into. But I think that's quite a big, quite big thing. world, if everyone's pulling in a different direction, you won't

Andy: 1:17:48

Well I think that's a perfect spot to end on, what a very, very strong message to finish up on. Thank you very succeed. So I think it's probably slightly more much Preston, I've really enjoyed going through your difficult. My team is all remote based now. So if I hadn't had career story, there's been a lot of you putting your hand up, a lot of you deciding it was time for the next thing and going out the COVID time to adjust to that way of working, I think I to get it and I think you know, a lot of the young people I probably would have found that harder than I have. Because I speak to, I just encourage ownership, take ownership of your career, get to know yourself, get to understand your think you know, having to manage effectively one big remote team, strengths. Get to become aware when you are getting bored, when the level of challenge is perhaps dropping below what you if I hadn't have had the COVID experience that probably would need it to be to feel fulfilled. And then just lean in and find yourself the next thing that's going to get you challenged have been quite a big challenge. So I think that's probably stood again, and, and so I think there's a brilliant example of me in quite good stead for this role. that. And yeah, thank you very much indeed.

Preston Rogers: 1:18:41

Thanks very much, Andy.

Andy: 1:18:46

You've been listening to Career-view Mirror with me, Andy Follows. I hope you found some helpful points to reflect on in Preston story. If you enjoy listening to my guest stories, please could you do me a favour and share an episode with someone you lead, parent or mentor or a friend who you think might also benefit? Thanks for listening