Elisa Viaud: The organisational psychologist bringing compassion back into fashion in the HR and recruitment world.

Elisa is a People and Culture Expert and Organisational Psychologist with more than 15 years of Talent Management experience at companies like early days Uber, Tesla, and the leading executive search firms Korn Ferry and Spencer Stuart.

She helps Executives with career strategy, promotion preparation, transitions from corporate to entrepreneurial roles, relocation, and adapting to a new industry, function or geography.

Elisa was born in Ukraine, raised in France, has worked with companies based in the US and EMEA. She is now based in Amsterdam in the Netherlands.

In our conversation we talk about her childhood growing up for the first 20 or so years of her life in what is now Ukraine.

Elisa explains how the collapse of the Soviet Union had a significant impact on her personal family situation and how she gradually found her own independence.

Elisa talks openly about realising that she needed to disappear and how she moved to Angers in France with her husband.

She shares how she became interested in psychology at an early age but realised that she needed to get some life experience before she could realistically hope to become a psychologist. Starting a career in HR seemed to be the best place to get that experience and she took an internship with one of the top five executive search firms.

Fast forward a little while and we find her working for UBER in Amsterdam until she suffered a burnout in her late twenties. Again Elisa tells the story of these challenging times with her characteristic openness and vulnerability.

Undeterred she enters another fast paced mission driven organisation, Tesla, and she explains the differences between the corporate cultures that she experienced.

Following a spell contracting at the EV startup, Arrival Elisa achieved her aspiration to set up her own consultancy. We talk about that move out of corporate and how she is about to launch a third pillar to her business, providing relationship counselling.

It was a wonderful experience to spend some time in Elisa’s company and to hear the incredible life and career journey that she has had to date. I am proud to share her story with you and I look forward to hearing what resonates with you.

Reach out to Elisa:

LinkedIn: Elisa Viaud

Thank you to our sponsors:

ASKE Consulting

Email: hello@askeconsulting.co.uk

Aquilae

Email: cvm@aquilae.co.uk

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Episode recorded on 12 May, 2023

Transcript

Elisa Viaud: 0:00

And I was ashamed I was hiding of course because oh my god, I was let go from this prestigious organisation with the beautiful office in Champs-Elysees there, right? And I wanted to hide. I wanted to hide, but then I realised probably I should not.

Aquilae: 0:17

Welcome to Career-view Mirror the automotive podcast that goes behind the scenes with key players in the industry looking back over their careers to share insights to help you with your own journey. Here's your host Andy Follows:

Andy Follows: 0:48

Hello, listeners, Andy here. As always, thank you for tuning in. We really appreciate that you do and love hearing from you when you give us feedback. In this episode, we're celebrating the career to date of Elisa Viaud. Elisa is a people and culture expert and Organisational Psychologist with more than 15 years of talent management experience at companies like early days Uber, Tesla, and the leading executive search firms Korn Ferry and Spencer Stuart. She helps executives with career strategy promotion preparation, transitions from corporate to entrepreneurial roles, relocation and adapting to a new industry function or geography. She helps organisations on the topic of building trust, vulnerability, and courage to achieve alignment, innovation and top performance she often helps resolve conflict and relationship hurdles in teams and between co founders. She's educated in organisational psychology, HR management, Neuroscience for business, diversity, equity and inclusion, nonviolent communication and leadership coaching for organisational performance. Elisa was born in Ukraine, raised in France, and has worked with companies based in the US and Emir. She's now based in Amsterdam, in the Netherlands. In our conversation, we talk about her childhood growing up for the first 20 or so years of her life in what is now Ukraine. Elisa explains how the collapse of the Soviet Union had a significant impact on her personal family situation and how she gradually found her own independence. Elisa talks openly about realising that she needed to disappear and how she moved to Angers in France with her husband. She shares how she became interested in psychology at an early age, but realised that she needed to get some life experience before she could realistically hope to become a psychologist. Starting a career in HR seemed to be the best place to get that experience and she took an internship with one of the top five executive search firms. Fast forward a little while and we find her working for Uber in Amsterdam until she suffered a burnout in her late 20s. Again, Elisa tells a story of these challenging times with her characteristic openness and vulnerability. Undeterred, she enters another fast paced mission driven organisation Tesla, and she explains the differences between the corporate cultures that she experienced. Following a spell contracting the EV startup Arrival Elisa achieved her aspiration to set up our own consultancy, we talked about that move out of corporate and how she's about to launch a third pillar to her business providing relationship counselling. It was a wonderful experience to spend some time in Elisa's company and to hear the incredible life and career journey that she's had to date. I'm proud to share her story with you. And I look forward to hearing what resonates with you. Hello, Elisa, and welcome. And where are you coming to us from today?

Elisa Viaud: 3:54

Hi, Andy. I am now in Amsterdam, in the Netherlands.

Andy Follows: 4:00

Thank you very much for joining me. I'm very excited to have this conversation. Just because of the little chat we've had before starting. There's so many little threads I'm curious to explore with you. First of all, though sticking to my usual format. Can you tell me where were you born and where did you grow up?

Elisa Viaud: 4:19

I was born in a country which doesn't exist anywhere. USSR

Andy Follows: 4:26

Right. Okay.

Elisa Viaud: 4:28

I grew up in when I was a little kid in country which is now Ukraine in Kyiv. And then I moved to France. So I have this two culture in me, I'm half French consider myself half French and half Ukrainian.

Andy Follows: 4:45

And how old were you when you left Ukraine?

Elisa Viaud: 4:49

Thanks actually, early 20s Oh, wow, that's so young. Right?

Andy Follows: 4:54

Okay, no, so you spent the first 20 and a bit years of your life in what is now Ukraine.

Elisa Viaud: 5:01

Yes. In Kyiv.

Andy Follows: 5:02

So you have you got lots of family back in Ukraine?

Elisa Viaud: 5:05

Not anymore. It's been 18 years since I'm 38 now, of course, I have few friends left. And of course, it's heartbreaking what is happening. But here is the hard truth. My dad is Russian and my mom is Ukrainian.

Andy Follows: 5:21

Oh, wow. Yeah. I'm bit speechless now. But I'm gonna go here. So how's that playing out in your household?

Elisa Viaud: 5:31

My husband is Italian. Well, I'm estranged from my parents for past 18 years. And it's that's the moment where I usually use this phrase, happy oysters don't make pearls. Because a pearl is a wound which healed. So my childhood is not very happy was not very happy. My parents. They are Jehovah witnesses, and they have been in this religion for thirty years, and I am no longer in touch with them. Because of this.

Andy Follows: 6:07

Wow, that is quite a serious place. I was having such a I know we're gonna have such fun. And thank you for being so open with me about the starting point. So do you want to talk about the space before you went? You know, those first 20 years school education, those sorts of things, and what life was like we had a guest recently, Oxana Grishina, she grew up just outside Moscow, and went through the transition as well. But what are some of your memories, if you're happy to talk about it from growing up?

Elisa Viaud: 6:39

Before my parents became religious, my first seven years they're very happy because both mum and dad are Soviet engineers, highly educated, I grew up surrounded by books, dictionaries, and was genuinely happy, because they had a lot of friends come into our house. And I read a lot and my grandmother influenced me heavily saying that every day you need to nourish yourself with at least 150 pages of sorts of geniuses, this Russian literature teacher and and then in 1991, when USSR collapsed, you can imagine how hard it was because the communism did no longer give people hope, as ideology, ideology. And then they found a new one, the religion. And since then, I think that's the reason why I become psychologist, I wanted to understand. I wanted to understand how it is possible, to love and give people compassion and be patient without fear of being punished by God. And since then, I think it's influenced my overall development, I think.

Andy Follows: 7:57

Let me see if I've understood then Elisa. So in 1991, when the Soviet Union collapsed, the ideology of communism was removed, and people had to find something else to replace it so there was a void that people looked to fill, and they look to fill it with religion, and your parents chose Jehovah's Witness as a religion.

Elisa Viaud: 8:18

They did, unfortunately.

Andy Follows: 8:21

And that then changed your life experience. From that point on.

Elisa Viaud: 8:27

I was no longer celebrating those days and years and Christmas. And I was baptised at age of eight. I devoted my life to serve God, a little I knew that I did not know much. I was not in, I was not capable to decide such a big things for myself. And yeah, it took me another 10 years, I was 17 when I realised that probably I will have to fade away from the religion and from the community. And that coincided with the time when I went to university study psychology, I think it saved me.

Andy Follows: 9:07

It must have been incredibly tough to be making that decision as a child really to decide that you, you can stay in the situation you're in, but we're going to have to move away at your parents then I'm wondering, so the idea of being part of a strict ideology like communism had that almost prepared them for something that is also quite strict. So were they were they happy to have have something as strict as Jehovah's?

Elisa Viaud: 9:33

I guess. So now, I understand a little bit more about this. And I think there's been this following something, some sort of extremity, you know, being part of the extreme movement and extreme, rigid ideas, right. I don't want to judge anybody and I respect every religion and every ideology. Unfortunately, I had a bad experience. which I qualify as spiritual abuse.

Andy Follows: 10:05

So you stop celebrating birthdays, life changed? Completely, you yourself lent into this religion aged eight because you as you point out you didn't know how little you knew at that point it's quite normal. But gradually over the next 10 years, you started to formulate your own ideas. Can we talk a little bit about that? Can you do remember how that happened? Were there certain events? Or, you know, how did you come to that conclusion?

Elisa Viaud: 10:33

Now when I have this external outlook, when I look back and connecting dots, I think it was very Boris Cyrulnik, who wrote and he keeps writing a lot about resilience. And he says that we will often need a fear of resilience, a tutor of resilience, and this person in my life was my grandmother, who did not become a Jehovah Witness. And luckily, she lived not far away. And I think she kept me sane, she had critical thinking about a lot of things. And she planted a few seeds in my mind. And she suggested to read more, although it was not allowed, because reading books, written by people, and not by God was not very much tolerated and celebrated in the community. But I read a lot, mainly Russian literature, but also foreign literature. And mainly then psychology, self help books, things which at the age of 12, I remember very well I read the book, which was about something like childhood development, and the first chapter was unconditional acceptance. That hit me very hard, because I realised that I am not accepted unconditionally, by my parents, there was always a condition. You need to be a good parishioner, good worshipper, you need to be somebody, you need to do something to be accepted.

Andy Follows: 12:11

How do you feel about your, towards your parents now?

Elisa Viaud: 12:15

Three months before the worst started, at the end of 2021, after 16 years of not seeing each other, I made a decision to go back and see them. And indeed, was very hard because I had nothing else to do in Kyiv for other than see my parents. I booked a flight from Amsterdam to Kyiv I took a hotel room, I brought my husband, and they didn't want to see me. I'm not saying this to ask for pity. It's just a matter of fact, they were not at home and I left a message and I texted them. And I said, Look, I really want to see you they said come to church.

Andy Follows: 12:56

Okay. So, wow. I'm glad you're smiling. There's quite quite a story. How did you process that being in Kyiv? And them not wanting to see you, you travelled there with only one reason to go with your husband? And they didn't want to see you? How did you deal with that?

Elisa Viaud: 13:20

Well, being a psychologist, myself, and from very early on, I understood that if I want to help others, first of all, I need to go through a very in depth therapy myself. So I've been in therapy for past 10 years, that's for this profession. It's a mandatory, and then supervision, of course, and then it's just never ending process. So for me, I have been preparing for this moment for past five years. And it's like, I had this 1% chance that what if, what if I knock on the door and they open the door and say, let's talk, let's sit down. And this 1% Chance was like this open door with the space or the drift to be to take the energy down? What if what if? So, I'm not saying it was easy, I came back and it took me two weeks where I could even realise which happens I had to process it's called the grief, severe grief because it's like I realised that the hope I had is no longer here. And from another hand from another side, I realised that I closed the door, which maybe will not be open maybe to be but at least I've done my best I came back. I've done my 50% of of the way which now makes me even more compassionate. When I'm working with people who are experiencing grief or been through loss.

Andy Follows: 14:58

Yes, it's one thing to be a psychologist, but when it's your own situation, then that's another challenge. So thank you for sharing that as well. I love this idea of your grandmother, being there and her dropping in some ideas and little bits of guidance to help you and encourage you to read. And that allowed you to build up your own thoughts really about what was right and and what you wanted to do. When you came then to decide to I think you said fade away, you decided you needed to fade away. What did you do?

Elisa Viaud: 15:39

That's the term known in the community of people who follow followers of the religion is when you just disappear. And you don't make a revolution when you don't accuse anybody of being right or wrong. Just disappear. And I think I disappeared. I at that time, fall in love. I met an exchange student, a French guy who studied in Ukraine, and we decided to get married. At certain point when he said, Let's go to live in France. I said, I don't mind. Let's go.

Andy Follows: 16:16

Right? Where were you in your studies at that point?

Elisa Viaud: 16:21

So I already graduated, I studied psychology, and I was already working. I started working very early. I was 17, and then I continue working in recruitment agency. And that was the beginning of my journey in human resources. Why human resources you asked me? It was clear to me that I can't become a psychologist while I'm 20 or 21. That's just not possible, needed to have life experience before. So the HR recruitment or talent acquisition was the closest discipline to the psychology I studied.

Andy Follows: 17:03

So you developed an interest in psychology through your teenage years, you pursued that at university, you met an exchange student fell in love. Did you get married in? Yeah. And then went to France.

Elisa Viaud: 17:19

One year after we got married, we went to live in West Coast in a small city, near Nantes, called Angers for your french french speaker listeners, it's two hours drive from Paris. And why specifically Angers because my husband travelled a lot. But he was originally from the region and I wanted to have a master's degree in France. I wanted to continue, because Ukrainian diploma is good, but not so good in France, so I wanted to speak the language. And I wanted to have a credential in the country as opposed to live in. And so I went to study, master of organisational psychology in French Psychologie du travail and the joint master and human resources.

Andy Follows: 18:08

And how was your French when you arrived in France?

Elisa Viaud: 18:11

Not very good, because I learned French before, even a little bit at school, but I was not fluent. But nothing motivates us human beings as the situation when we don't have choice. I had to nobody around spoke English with me. And in three months, I remember being completely embedded in the French culture, which is French news. I've spoken with French people, French friends, everything was in French so in three months, I passed the exam, which was necessary, minimum necessary to be accepted to university. And I remember when I saw my name in the list, and that's not possible there possibly must be some sort of a mistake that I passed, but I worked really hard. And yeah, when I tell you this, I feel proud. I did it.

Andy Follows: 19:08

Yes. So you should. And had you travelled much before this move to France?

Elisa Viaud: 19:14

Not really. I think first time I took aeroplane was not with my husband, but with my company back at that time. And it was I flew to Switzerland. No, it was to Moscow, something like this, but not like I never been to United States or I never been to Asia. So it was just the beginning of opening up to the world.

Andy Follows: 19:38

Yeah. So you find yourself in a completely different country, not speaking the language but wanting to pursue your education. And it's absolutely absolutely is the recipe for learning is put yourself somewhere where you absolutely have to learn and then get some help. Talk to the people around you. Whatever it is that helps you to learn and so congratulations on getting onto the course. How, first of all, just from a lifestyle point of view, how did you fit into that area Angers?

Elisa Viaud: 20:11

I never lived in small city. And of course, Andy, I will be honest with you. I packed up quite a few times and told my husband and his mom, you know, what, I'm out. I'm taking the taxi to the airport. I can't take it anymore. It's too calm. It's too French campagna. I was like it's too quiet. I want Metro I want trains. I want honks of taxis like bring me to the life like where's what's what's going on? So funny. And we moved. We moved closer to we moved to Paris, actually, when I graduated three years after. And I loved it. I loved my life in Paris, and I was pretty good in Paris. So I very quickly started to work in a company I, I wanted to, I had a dream to work for one of the big five. You know, what's the big five?

Andy Follows: 21:08

Which Big Five? Are we talking?

Elisa Viaud: 21:10

We're talking about in executive search in the top

of the top. There are big five: 21:13

Korn Ferry, Spencer Stuart, Russell Reynolds, Egon Zehnder and Heidrick and Struggles. And I wanted to work for one of them back at that time when I started to work with recruitment in Ukraine. And none of them were present in Ukraine. It's too small of a market, emerging markets. So when Spencer Stuart called I joined.

Andy Follows: 21:38

And they called, they were in Paris were they? Yes. And I was finishing my education. And it was 2008. Imagine financial crisis, nobody's hiring. And my French is not so good. So they were hiring for an internship. And for me, it was whatever, internship fine, but you know what, you're going to have an intern, but in fact, you will have somebody who already experienced in recruitment, so they gave me a chance. And then this internship was converted into maternity leave cover. And then the Korn Ferry called. This time, they called me that was a dream come true. So two out of five. I worked for two executive search companies in Paris. Very good, very good. So you started working in recruitment in Ukraine? Yeah. Then you moved to Angers and studied, were you working while you were studying for your masters? In recruitment still? So you're having this practical experiences, the closest job you could find that involves psychology, because you're too young to expect to be had the life experience to be a psychologist. So this was the next best thing. Then you had aspired to being in one of the top five executive search companies. You manage to get an internship, how did you get the internship with Sorry, I forgot the name of the first organisations, Spencer Stuart. Yeah. How did you get that? Were you applying for those into them? You wrote to them? Fine. Okay, so then you did that. And then Korn Ferry approached you? And said, can you come and join us in a proper role fully fledged?

Elisa Viaud: 23:16

Associate? Yes. It's like a law firm. Basically, same structure, there will be partners responsible to generate the business and associates who will help them to execute.

Andy Follows: 23:26

And so you willingly moved over there? What sort of age were you by now?

Elisa Viaud: 23:33

Early 20s, mid mid 20s.

Andy Follows: 23:35

Right. Okay. So this is a very strong start very strong start to your career, I guess, essentially. But you had a longer term plan to become a psychologist. Did you want to stay in business? Or what are you thinking? What was your longer term plan?

Elisa Viaud: 23:52

It was a bit of a vague plan I said whenever I have grey hair, and I have already a few I had that will be good to be on my own in my private practice. I didn't have the exactly the plan when and how but so when I will be old. I guess I'm old now.

Andy Follows: 24:12

You must be I don't know what it makes me but yeah. So there was an aspiration. There was a an expectation you had for yourself that that would feature at some point. Maybe you imagined it would happen later than it has but you imagined having your own practice at some point. And so you knew that your time at Korn Ferry was a phase it was part of the journey. And how did you find it because you'd aspired to be part of this organisation or one of those top five?

Elisa Viaud: 24:44

The time at Korn Ferry was much shorter than I expected. So been there two months on the job, Friday evening, and I receive a call from a managing director and say, Hey, Elisa, can you just stop at my office before going home Friday night, and I remember very well walking past two partners I worked with and both of them made me like sign like, oh, what this what this is going to be about?

Andy Follows: 25:13

Yeah, for our listeners, you just winked at me twice.

Elisa Viaud: 25:18

And honestly, Andy I expected like, at least a congratulations for the good job we've done for the past few projects, and there was a repeat business. So I came in very relaxed sat down. And by the look at his face, I understood that there's something I'm not getting. It was not congruent with my ideas, and my excitement and his face. And he said, Elisa I have bad news, one of our partners, we're losing him. He's going to the company you used to work before. And we have to downsize the staff, and you happen to be the last person who joined us. Last In First Out. I was shocked. I saw that good people and good performance never got laid off. Then here's after 15 years after I'm actually glad that it happened to me.

Andy Follows: 26:19

Say a bit more about why you're glad.

Elisa Viaud: 26:21

Because I think it taught me that being laid off. There is nothing to be ashamed of. It can happen to the best and brightest. It can happen just because you be happened to be the cheapest person to let go in terms of severance package. It can be because I am the person who at that time didn't have kids. While there might be a single mother with two kids, right right next to me who joined one month after me or before me. So it also made me extremely compassionate. Because being in executive search and seeing people's resumes, sometimes I could have this a little bit of arrogance like Oh, what happened here? Job hopping? So yeah, it was very hard. And I I had to go to India to process it. I had to go to some sort of volunteering couple of months rural India, I had to bring myself back together. Because at that time, my entire world kind of collapsed.

Andy Follows: 27:25

You had this paradigm that good people don't get fired. Yeah. or don't get let go.

Elisa Viaud: 27:32

Yeah, it's like meritocracy if you work hard if you do more than you have to if everything is fine, like, there's no risk, right? Well, now I know, that can't control everything.

Andy Follows: 27:46

I'm totally in agreement with you that that was good that it happened when it did from the point of view of the sooner you learn that the better really, the sooner the I think there's a lot of false security that people have in large organisations and having a wake up call that no, I need to pay attention to the things I can control, be aware of those that I can't, I can see why that would have been helpful and why you'd look back on it now as a benefit.

Elisa Viaud: 28:13

Call it disillusion or losing the illusion. And also, organisation is not the family, the company is not the family because we don't firing our brothers and sisters, and our nieces and nephews. That was very early, but also very useful event in my life, which also helped me to develop a great deal of compassion to people who then later I will meet in my career who would unfortunately go through this and when I would have to on Friday night call somebody happened to me a few times, God forbid on the Zoom. And now we'll have to say these words, I have bad news for you. I had to say this word with so much compassion, which I don't know if it's even professional to say this, this compassion, but I think I did a decent job. Whoever was in another side probably disagrees now with me. It is what it is.

Andy Follows: 29:15

There's no need to be inhumane about doing it is that that doesn't add anything. I like, I don't know if like is the right word. But I do like the idea that you were able to be more compassionate. You judge people less in future when you saw breaks on their CVs. Previously, you might have thought well clearly they didn't work hard enough. They didn't deserve to stay longer in that organisation. Whereas now you you had a reality check that sometimes it's things outside of the individual's control.

Elisa Viaud: 29:45

It's not always related to performance.

Andy Follows: 29:48

No. That's helpful for people to hear. Very helpful, but at the time, it was devastating. So you took yourself off to India with your husband or just you?

Elisa Viaud: 29:59

Yes, we went together with my husband, and it was right moment to, I actually want to give you know southern India, rural area, non governmental organisation, it's something about microcredits. So I went to help women to be more empowered to help rural communities to make a living. Actually, I received much more from them. And I learned that how people can be happy with minimum wage of $2 per day, how they can be sharing more, while they have less than I, and how they can be grateful for what they don't have for what for the little they have, and kids and living in community. And I think I actually received much more than I gave in that three weeks. Yeah.

Andy Follows: 30:55

So you went thinking, the way to help me get over this is to go and do something meaningful, go and do something good over here. And ironically, you found you learned more from them.

Elisa Viaud: 31:07

I still believe I still do this Andy. And I believe whenever I feel sad, upset or not happy with my life. My only way is go and give something go and do something for somebody who actually in less privileged position. And I did this in Paris for years, and it's not I'm not very comfortable talking about oh, look at me what I've done. But you know what, just for the sake of of the subject. Every Saturday night for four years in Paris, I was cooking soup for homeless people in a beautiful Eglise Saint-Eustache those who live in Paris, they know very well. It's not far from the Louvre. That gave me better sense of purpose, especially in the moment when I also came back from India and I was like, Oh my God, I don't know what I'm gonna do. I was hiding behind the prestigious name, Korn Ferry, it was a business card, which I would put anywhere and will open doors. When I will call somebody an executive at any publicly traded organisation say Korn Ferry's let me close the door. Yeah, right.

Andy Follows: 32:16

Yeah. You're probably one of the the only welcome cold calls that there. There is. So you hiding behind that brand? You recognise that now?

Elisa Viaud: 32:28

Yes. I was nothing. All of a sudden, without that name. I was nothing. And I was nobody.

Andy Follows: 32:34

But you just experienced three weeks of people who had even less, you had much less? And was it that powerful? Was it that a quick change? Did you come back feeling hang on a minute, this is not as bad as I thought it was? How were you feeling when he got back?

Elisa Viaud: 32:50

Well, first of all, I came back, and I felt like I don't belong in this world anymore. Because back then they are more happy. They live a richer life than I do. And I remember I took a video of a few beautiful ladies, manually processing the cashew nuts. Now I know why they're more expensive than whatever. Others. And I sent to a few girlfriends in Paris and say, girls, they have less than us and they have brightest smiles. There's something wrong we do in Paris. Okay, so let's rethink our way of living. And I guess that was the starting point. I came back and I think I appreciate it much more than what I had. But most importantly, the community and human connection people. Yeah. And I was ashamed. I was hiding of course, because oh my god, I was let go from this prestigious organisation with the beautiful office in Champs-Elysees there right? And I wanted to hide. I wanted to hide, but then I realised probably I should not.

Andy Follows: 34:05

Let me take a moment to tell you about our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by ASKE Consulting who are experts in executive search, resourcing solutions and talent management across all sectors of the automotive industry in the UK and Europe. I've known them for almost 20 years and I can think of no more fitting sponsor for Career-view Mirror. They're the business we go to at Aquilae when we're looking for talent for our clients and for projects that we're working on. ASKE was founded by Andrew Macmillan, whose own automotive career includes board level positions with car brands and leasing companies. All ASKE consultants have extensive client side experience, which means they bring valuable insight and perspective for both their employer and candidate customers. My earliest experience of working with Andrew was back in 2004, when he helped me hire regional managers from my leasing Sales Team at Alphabet. More recently, when Aquilae was helping a US client to establish a car subscription business, ASKE Consulting was alongside us helping us to develop our people strategy, and to identify and bring onboard suitable talent. Clients we've referred to ASKE have had an equally positive experience. Andrew and the team at ASKE are genuinely interested in the long term outcomes for you and the people they place with you. They even offer the reassurance of a two year performance guarantee, which means they have skin in the game when working with you. If you're keen to secure the most talented and high potential people to accelerate your business and gain competitive advantage, do get in touch with them and let them know I sent you. You can email Andrew the team at hello@askeconsulting.co.uk or check out their website for more details and more client feedback at www.askeconsulting.co.uk. ASKE is spelt A S K E. You'll find these contact details in the show notes for this episode. Okay, let's get back to our episode. So what did you do when you realised that you shouldn't be hiding?

Elisa Viaud: 36:06

So first of all, I started to go out. And I wanted to find like minded individuals, which well, I have a French passport now. And I consider myself as a half French, I wanted to see expats like me, I wanted to see people who had difficulties to belong to fit in. Who were these hybrids, you know, not here, but not completely there, not there anymore, but not completely here. And I found this organisation which still exist InterNations, I create a profile and all of a sudden the events right here, right there, get together, meet and greets. I started to go once a week, sometimes twice a week, I met quite a few people from Mexico, from Brazil, from the United States, from Italy from Spain. And I felt like oh, but we're talking about the same problems. You know, I struggle going to Boulangerie and asking for baguette because in Russian baguette is masculine, it's gender. But in France is feminine. So I always came back with two. Because when you say plural, you didn't have to say une baguette. Because I always said un baguette but I mean, Give me two. Okay.

Andy Follows: 37:22

That's so funny, because I was the same with croissant. Always had to order two. It's the safe way out. It saves embarrassment.

Elisa Viaud: 37:32

Exactly because you have to guess is it un croissant or une croissant?

Andy Follows: 37:36

Then deux croissant. Okay, you're the only person I've met that's had the same problem. But I also I joined InterNations in Singapore. This was like 2008, or

Elisa Viaud: 37:51

It was very popular, and I hope they're still still alive. And kicking.

Andy Follows: 37:56

It was a lot of fun. So that helped you to find people like minded people or people who were like you sort of Hybrid Hybrid culture.

Elisa Viaud: 38:07

Ah, as a psychologist, the code find your, your tribe? Yeah, you my tribe my community and people who all of a sudden, I was not just the one outlier. And I recently wrote in LinkedIn, a confession that one day I heard that my accent was reminding somebody at workplace. So the person told me, You didn't even have to talk to people on the phone, because people will think about Le Bois de Boulogne, which is equivalent of Red Light District in Paris. And it hit me hard because like, well, what can I do? I speak with accent. And somebody told me later that accent is the sign of bravery. People will remember you the way you speak. And all of a sudden, I met so many people who had pretty much even thicker accent thicker, like and then yeah, I was no longer alone.

Andy Follows: 39:05

Yeah. And a different perspective. Yeah. So from a professional career perspective, what happened next?

Elisa Viaud: 39:14

I first experienced what it is being in house, right. So I was in extremely prestigious executive search firm, which are basically wasn't a revenue generating function. I was the one bringing in money and executing and then traditional companies when they hire recruiters, it's a cost centre. HR is a cost centre, right from like perspective, where's the money coming from and where money going to. So I worked for the French organisation Dassault Systemes, which is a branch of the famous Dassault Aviation which creates the military aircrafts. So I was part of the organisation which is producing 3D PLM software, it was an interesting experience because I all of a sudden felt that whatever I do, the sophistication of executive search is no longer needed. It's the high volume recruitment and what I needed to do, which is to supply resumes, to hiring managers. And I did not work like this, like, I'm not going to give you a resume, I will give you three candidates, when I will decide that they are qualified. So I had to adjust a lot. And I had to remove my white gloves, and put on rubber gloves and be a bit busier and work a bit differently, a bit faster, and maybe less, less sophistication, it was not necessary. It was different type of profiles, also international recruitment, but not executive search. When I call C level executive, I had to know his career story. And I had to make it compelling for him or her to consider a potential move, which will require a big move big, big career transition. This time it was just a qualification call qualifying and an interview in and that's it.

Andy Follows: 41:13

This is a very different role it sounds like. You mentioned purpose before Elisa, you mentioned that when you were doing a Saturday night's serving soup to the homeless, there was a lot more sense of purpose in that work, when you had your white gloves on and you're doing the executive search at Korn Ferry, did that have a sense of purpose about it because of the sophistication and because of the complexity if you like?

Elisa Viaud: 41:38

Excellence, that was something my dad told me a long time ago before his adventure with Jehovah Witnesses, he told me whatever you do, try to learn from the best. Try to be as good as you can the best well later I can tell you Andy it was not very welcome. For me because being perfect, it's perfectionism is not the right thing to do. It makes it very difficult to accept mistakes and to be tolerant to people who are not perfect. And nobody is perfect. Surprise, me too right.

Andy Follows: 42:19

One of my guests said, perfectionism, she said, it's just another form of fear. It's the Haute Couture of fear, which I thought was a really interesting description. So the excellence you you are attracted to that learn from the best and be at their highest level in this game in this field. And then you found yourself for quite an industrial role processing resumes. And so now this isn't the same. This isn't psychology anymore. This isn't close this thing to psychology that you could have this is something like a factory.

Elisa Viaud: 42:55

Yeah. And I asked myself, What did I study for? It actually was even harmful to think about unconscious biases. And about all these theories I studied at university. So I was not happy. I didn't see the purpose. Yeah. What for, and that was my time when I started to see or what happened there was. Remember that time when France Telecom and the Orange there were quite a few suicides at workplace?

Andy Follows: 43:30

What time is it? I didn't catch?

Elisa Viaud: 43:33

2015, in 2014. Yeah. And it was a very big topic in France back at that time, okay. And something happened at campus. At the Dassault Systemes. It's a public information. I'm not disclosing anything, but somebody jumped from the fifth sports floor, right in the middle in a lunch break. And it made me think that's where psychology is needed. How can we prevent this because somebody who does it not at home on the weekend, right? Although it's horrible tragedy, but somebody who does it at the lunch break at the place where entire campus 2000 or 3000 people gathering for lunch? I think it's a cry for attention. But that was the first time I realised, okay. The dream of becoming psychologist is good, but what if I do organisational psychology? What if I stay in with an organisation but directing my efforts somewhere towards prevention, the issue, which pushes people to jump from the fifth floor?

Andy Follows: 44:40

Yeah. So this is a coming together of your longer term aspiration to be involved in psychology and seeing now a practical application for it doesn't mean running away from what you're doing. It means adjusting your course. How did you adjust your course once you'd had this idea?

Elisa Viaud: 45:01

I didn't for next 10 years I didn't.

Andy Follows: 45:04

Classic human beings.

Elisa Viaud: 45:06

Right? We know what we want. We know what our dreams are. But we keep doing the same thing expecting different outcome for a decade. Because guess what, 2015 I'm coming back home. It's late. I'm calling what? an Uber. And Paris was the first city, which was launched for the service Uber outside of North America. And all my friends, yeah I have to try. I have to try. But be careful. You never know you come into car with somebody whom you don't know. It's a stranger. Because I used to live in Paris in the area where taxi drivers sometimes will not want to go like imagine you stop the taxi and say, we're going to Meudon in the south part. He was like no I don't want to go there. What do you mean, I'm paying you? You don't want to go there? No, because then it's far. So then of course, Uber was a solution. So one of the evenings I'm riding an Uber and I'm receiving LinkedIn message from Uber. That would you like to join us in Amsterdam? We're hiring recruiters now to acquisition folks to help us build Europe, Middle East and Africa, headquarter in Amsterdam, came home and told my husband laughed at about this statement. Never been to Amsterdam. I Never No, of course not. And my husband at that time. My first husband, French guy told me Hold on a second. When somebody's offered new place in the rocket machine in the rocket, don't ask which one where just jump.

Andy Follows: 46:35

Okay.

Elisa Viaud: 46:36

I don't know where he learned this phrase in Harvard Business Review wherever, but he said this. So at least I talked to them. Because I was ready to say no thanks, right. I'm grateful for this to him. So I picked up the call. And we had a conversation one interview, two interview three interview four interview five interviews, and I had an offer. And I had to go and start in October 2015 in Amsterdam without ever being in the city. Now I remember going on YouTube and checking life in Amsterdam. How's it to live in Amsterdam? Well, fast forward, it's been 2015. Almost, what nine years? Yeah.

Andy Follows: 47:19

Wow. And how long did you have then to move from France to Amsterdam?

Elisa Viaud: 47:24

Two months.

Andy Follows: 47:25

Okay. The interview process was quite intense. So you had two months then to move? Did your husband go with you?

Elisa Viaud: 47:34

No, he stayed in Paris. And we were under the impression that it will be just for a year. And then of course, you will be so good that, of course at least that you will be able to ask to come back to Paris, right? Well, I didn't want to come back to Paris because Paris was operational. It was just operations from the business standpoint, and Amsterdam was headquarter. So I was working with public policy, communications and PR type of function, which is the core at that time 2015 2016. For Uber, it was the legal, the core of the core of the business, right, because ask for forgiveness, not permission required, solid regulatory actions, litigation, and everything related to public policy.

Andy Follows: 48:28

So the business's ability to expand and grow was very much dependent on the performance of the areas that you were part of there in Amsterdam.

Elisa Viaud: 48:37

Yep. So I didn't come back. My husband started the startup in our living room in Paris. And I remember visiting him, and he would tell me, Okay, folks, now we'll come so you will meet the team. And then what do you mean? Like, can we have lunch or breakfast? Just just ask, it's like, no, no, this fine for seven people come in. So you just join, you know, join the movement. We are all here. You know, like in the movie, Silicon Valley, people living in the same house and they all work in for the same stuff. Yeah, it was funny. Funny time.

Andy Follows: 49:11

So how long did you spend in Amsterdam with Uber?

Elisa Viaud: 49:13

And a bit over one year, I had a burnout, a severe burnout, which was a pivotal point for me. I learned a lot about myself about what it is how it feels when the brain says let's go but the body says nah, not gonna happen. And the brain says, Come on. Who is the boss? Let's go and the body still no, we're not gonna go. Three months sick leave. Yep.

Andy Follows: 49:42

I'm thinking you must only have been late 20s or mid to late 27.

Elisa Viaud: 49:47

Late 20s.

Andy Follows: 49:48

Okay. So it seems pretty early to be having a burnout just shows the intensity of the organisation.

Elisa Viaud: 49:56

Yeah and imagine 2015 when I'm joining we are 4000 people. 2017 when I'm leaving, we are 11,000 people, so organisation had to double the size. And I was the one responsible for among, of course, many great colleagues, many of them became friends very, very good friend. I was on the front row of hiring people. And Uber hired extremely well, the quality of interviews and profiles. And this early days, folks, were very, very carefully selected, and I admired the way how it was done. And I was part of it. And I'm very grateful for this experience. But to scale so fast and rapidly. Remember working to 8pm dinner was served at 8pm. But he asked us to stay but what do you do in the city you don't know, with a bunch of people who came like like me from different cities, great folks, right. But I have no friends, no family, what to do, of course, I'm gonna work. And I loved it. And I had time of my life. And sometimes Saturday morning, if I'm coming to the office, why not? I'm passionate. I loved it. Until the moment I could not do it anymore.

Andy Follows: 51:17

I find this absolutely fascinating. You loved it, you are passionate was that because this was playing to your strengths and your own sense of purpose? Or was it because of the camaraderie and swept up with all these other people in a similar situation, trying to achieve a goal that was a huge doubling of the workforce in a short space of

Elisa Viaud: 51:40

It's a bit of both, because Uber great, amazing time? mission, to reduce car ownership need, right? Why owning a car, if you can, click the button, get the ride, making transportation as reliable as running water. That was the company's mission. And I felt like I'm part of something big city after city showing up on the map at the office, adapting Uber and making it possible for people who created it, people making living, you know, there's drivers who, you know, in London or in Paris, you had to buy a medallion, which is very expensive, right? Or pass the knowledge this this very complicated exam. In France, you had to buy a licence, and now all of a sudden, people can just get a car, pass the test, and your driver and you make money. What what not to like, I was part of it.

Andy Follows: 52:38

A very compelling mission with some really persuasive angles and purposeful objectives to get behind. I understand that you spent three months on sick leave. And then did you go back to Uber? Or was that the end of your time?

Elisa Viaud: 52:54

And then when I wanted to go back, my manager changed three times. So I couldn't recognise the organisation anymore. It was hard because the relationship with the manager especially in such intensity is important. And then Tesla reached out January 2017. My first question was, Is it as intense as Uber? They said, well, yeah. And then I was a bit sceptical. Do I need to go to another Hyper Growth organisation? So I reached out to my first manager who brought me to Uber. Nick Buteau who became a friend and a mentor, Nick Buteau, and we went for a drink. And I asked him, What do you think? I think at the time he left Uber already, I asked him for advice. Shall I go and he says of course, yes, go for the interview, and then decide, and yes, and he happened to know the manager I supposed to work with, you'll be fine. He's a very good guy. So with his blessing, I went, got the job offer, negotiated it and started.

Andy Follows: 53:59

And congratulations again. Nice that you reached out to a mentor, always good to flag that up. What was it like when you got there, though? Because when you were I knew that you went to Tesla, and I'm thinking okay, so you've had a burnout at Uber. And you're thinking, Okay, I don't want to do that again. Tesla was an interesting choice of place to go and recuperate.

Elisa Viaud: 54:24

I know right.

Andy Follows: 54:28

So forgive me chuckling but how was it then when you got to Tesla?

Elisa Viaud: 54:35

I loved it. It was very different. It was fun. Intense, but very different. Maybe because 2017 We did not have launched model three, right. So Model X Model S, low volume, very expensive cars, but also because look, alcohol was not allowed. at the workplace because high voltage works, as you remember, and the headquarter was also huge service centre, and they were technicians working in repairing extremely sophisticated electronics with the batteries which are highly inflammable. I think the culture was, was good was great. And also the team and the team was just about to be built. And I met a great deal of local Dutch people whom I might felt so at ease, because they had the family, they had the friends, they had life, they had somewhere to be at after work. So nobody hang out the office until 8pm.

Andy Follows: 55:38

Yeah, so interesting. Both organisations have had very powerful, compelling mission. So you talked about the mission at Uber, and then similar mission at Tesla to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy. So you had people giving everything. Slight difference being that there were families involved, so maybe a little bit diluted, a little bit mellow, the intensity came down a little bit people did go home. And no alcohol? Was there alcohol at Uber?

Elisa Viaud: 56:08

Yeah. At the Office at 6pm. Even if you have a meeting you can you allow this is a public information. I've actually loved it. Now, I'm not drinking at all. That's part of my neuroscience research. But at that time you have a meeting, if you and I would be meeting in the Zoom after 6pm, most likely you will see me with a glass of wine. And why not right? work hard play hard? It was not possible at Tesla that just, you know, the policies and then regulation because alcohol wasn't allowed.

Andy Follows: 56:39

Right? So that also changes the dynamic and stops people staying as long as well. And you were you hiring people at Tesla as well. Same talent acquisition role?

Elisa Viaud: 56:50

Yeah talent acquisition, but because of my previous experience with this white gloves, you know, I was in charge of G&A. G&A. It's everything which is not retail, not sales and not service. So legal finance, many folks sit in at the headquarters, and often reporting directly to Mr. Elon Musk, which I found terrifying to hire people. And I don't know if you remember back at that time, we had to. So Mr. Elon Musk had to sign off on pretty much every senior hire pretty much on every hiring senior hire. And I had to be sure that the candidate flying to California in and being interviewed by him is bulletproof. is good, is right. Right candidate.

Andy Follows: 57:40

And right, from his perspective.

Elisa Viaud: 57:44

Right, from his perspective, leadership capacities, problem solving technical skills and this capacity to contribute to be part of the mission. Yeah.

Andy Follows: 57:55

And does this fitting with the idea of being close to excellence?

Elisa Viaud: 58:00

I don't know, excellence. I'm now driving model three. And I can tell you, I believe what Elon Musk did, regardless of all the twists and turns, he did it. Not only he did it, but he inspired the entire industry. Of course, there was a time when I was slightly upset or frustrated. But at the end of the day, when I am starting my red model three, I feel good about my contribution.

Andy Follows: 58:34

What sort of things were you looking for when you are putting people forward to fly to California to have their final interview with Elon Musk? You touched on sort of some of the high level qualities but how were you deciding? Because this is your neck on the line? You said you a little bit. There was some if you use the word fear or you were scared, but you knew this was a big deal. So how were you deciding who got to go?

Elisa Viaud: 59:03

Luckily, your responsibility was shared. I was never alone to decide and deal with it.

Andy Follows: 59:09

That's helpful. Okay.

Elisa Viaud: 59:11

I also had extremely good boss who was head of TA for entire Emir region, who, for the first time when I had to put my name on there, the report which was sent to Elon Musk's inbox, he put his name to just in case if there is a problem, it won't be you. And Andy, I found this such a great example of a servant leadership not to take a credit he did not he didn't need to take a credit. He said, If there's something wrong, it won't be your head on the line for the first time. So four criterias technical skills, the technical excellence right in in whatever domain we're hiring other its stellar credentials or what I really like about Elon's way to look at talent is proof of exceptional abilities. Okay, if the candidate did not go to Oxford, tell me what did did she or he do, which is equally impressive. Second thing in leadership capacity, and give me examples how this person demonstrates them, or demonstrated them in the past. Third, intellectual horsepower. For Elon it was very important, being able to demonstrate the strong IQ, intellectual horsepower. For some people, we translated in a little bit of critical thinking slash problem solving. Can you solve the problem? When you see it? Can you solve it? And the last one, how shall I bid? Because often I would have people and have people on the phone, why do you want to work for Tesla, that Oh, my God, I love the car, Elon Musk, don't come here. When I hear people saying, I would like to solve problems, and I know that you have quite a lot to solve. Okay? Yes, tell me more. I'm listening. And often people will not understand sometimes I will bring them to the office and say, Look, we don't have fancy lunch and fancy dinner. We're here for another reason. It's a bit scrappy inside, right? Because we are here to save the world well, to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy. And that part, I systematically verified with folks coming from FANG organisation. Now what Facebook replaced with meta, right? So sometimes we're gonna bring them to canteen and say, You see, it's not perfect. And you have to pay for your own coffee, if you wants sophisticated coffee. Otherwise, there's a coffee machine, which is not probably as there is no barista at the office. And no massages, there won't be manicure every Friday, like at the Google office. Do you want to be here then? Yes, I do. Like now you know that it's not perfect. Now you know that there is no lunch, provided you have to buy your own lunch. Okay. That's part of being able to see bigger picture, the cultural enrichment, cultural bit. Which if you impress by Elon Musk, become a client, don't become an employee. Buy yourself a Tesla, right? Don't come and fix things which we have to fix on the back end, which is...

Andy Follows: 1:02:29

That's a great line. What was the acronym you just use for the organization's that's, Facebook, Amazon?

Elisa Viaud: 1:02:36

Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, Google and Apple FANG. That's the 10 years ago, the best performing tech companies, which I guess no longer the case, but it's still kind of sticks, you know, FANG FANG folks.

Andy Follows: 1:02:52

So those people, you might have been recruiting from there, or they might have been coming over. But you were pointing out some of the differences in terms of..

Elisa Viaud: 1:03:00

Cushiness is on the job. Yes. It won't be cushy.

Andy Follows: 1:03:05

Yeah. Okay. So you've stayed in Amsterdam all this time. And you're still there. Now. You're working in that headquarters for Tesla, hiring people, which areas were you hiring for in...

Elisa Viaud: 1:03:17

Administrative, so legal, finance, financial services, treasury. So everything which is not retail, right, yeah. I also build my own team. I hired very diverse type of individuals. I remember I had an Iranian guy who was former intern and I really wanted to work with him because he's brilliant. A French lady. I hired somebody without experience. So I had to train. Lithuanian. Then I inherited two team members in London, both British back back originally from India and from I'm not sure Morocco. Brilliant individuals. Brilliant ladies. Yeah. So I had five people. I called them kittens, because they were juniors, you know, and kittens grew up and became adult cats. And they are now managing their own teams. And I saw them growing. And that was the biggest satisfaction me.

Andy Follows: 1:04:15

Was that your first experience of building a team?

Elisa Viaud: 1:04:17

Yes.

Andy Follows: 1:04:19

And that presumably became very purposeful.

Elisa Viaud: 1:04:21

Yeah and I remember spending time on the phone. I broke up with my boyfriend. All right. Let's have a talk. Let's have a chat. Let's listen to the podcast here is the book or this is something happened to my family. And sometimes it's just being human. Yeah, and taking the time, taking the time, which is not 30 minutes, one on one two week, far from 30 minutes a week, much more time and it's like, you can't ask kittens to clean up after them because they are kittens, right? They're Junior they need attention. They need shadowing they need time to learn and I'm not telling that I was perfect, but I did my best and definitely made mistakes, definitely said I did something which probably was not as I would do it now. But we're still in touch. The French lady I rehired her for one of my clients recently. And I follow their journeys now, and I admire how well they do, how happy they are. And if there's 1% contribution, which is mine, I would be so happy.

Andy Follows: 1:05:29

So you get a lot of fulfilment from from developing those team members. And it sounded like you'd recruited quite a diverse team. They sounded all female.

Elisa Viaud: 1:05:36

One male.

Andy Follows: 1:05:38

A lot of diversity in terms of cultural background, though and nationality. To me, it just seems absolutely common sense that the more diversity you have in the team, the more perspectives the more you different worldviews you're going to be able to cover, you're just going to be holistically better off.

Elisa Viaud: 1:05:55

You know what, I was so tired in 2020, hearing diversity and inclusion, diversity inclusion, so you know, what, I gotta go to Yale are gonna pay a couple of$1,000. And we're gonna learn what does it mean? And oh, my God, what I learn is without diversity, we cannot innovate. Okay? Very quickly I understood this. But without belonging. We cannot hear from people, their ideas to innovate. If people do not feel safe to be different, and oh, my God, I always was an outlier. And I'm still now feel like I'm different. I'm hypersensitive, there's a lot of things I'm doing differently. It takes a lot of courage to say I disagree with you, I have a very different opinion, experience vision view. And if the organisation does not allow these outliers to belong, what's the point, then we're not gonna innovate.

Andy Follows: 1:06:52

So it's not enough to have the outliers, it's not enough to have a diverse population, you have to create an environment where they are comfortable to share their ideas.

Elisa Viaud: 1:07:02

I call it principled confrontation, conflict when it feels so personal when I have to defend myself right when I feel attacked by who I am. But mainly, I disagree with the idea. And we have this habit to treat this disagreement in a way which is constructive. And nobody feels offended, nobody feels stupid, or not enough. And that's what I do now with teams of my clients who come to me and talk to me something about communication and trust. But at the end, like the bottom line, when I'm taking out one layer after another, it's about can we be us, and still be together as a team? Can everybody say their piece, agreement, disagreement, and still, like, can we still be a team and not feel like we can talk to each other after disagreement?

Andy Follows: 1:08:01

And that's the sort of work you're doing now. I'd like to come on to that. First of all, I'd like to just understand, because you transitioned from the corporate environment, to being an entrepreneur to having your own practice that you thought you might have eventually. And it's come quite soon. So how, how long did you spend at Tesla Elisa?

Elisa Viaud: 1:08:22

Almost four years, and I probably would have stayed even for now, because I love the company. And I met my husband at Tesla. I mean, we both work for Tesla, we both go into work, what's not to love. And then one day, December 2019, I was on my way to my annual yoga retreat to Canary Island. And there was very strong turbulence to the point that the staff stopped service. Okay, it's turbulent. And then there was an announcement that it's gonna last for a while and it's very violent. So brace, it was a brace for a potential big impact or whatever. And then the woman sitting next to me started to smoke is like, you know, what, if this is going to be my last one, I'm going to smoke it anyway. I'd never experienced something like this. So people were crying. Somebody was praying. We made an emergency landing in another island, which is nearby. But anyway, it lasted for a while. So I drafted a goodbye message. To quite a few people. I was very grateful. And then I said goodbye to my husband. I didn't send because well, there is no connection anyway. We landed. Well, there were quite a few people deeply in shock. Like, what was that? That turbulence was, it lasted for almost an hour. Very violent. And I called my husband say, You know what, if this was today, I would really regret never trying to open my practice to be a psychologist. He said, Now you know what to do is like that's the most terrifying thing. I don't know what to do how. 2019. And if there's one rule I know being in this profession never take any decisions after such dramatic events never. So I journalled a little bit I had a session with my therapist, I talked about this with friends and oh my god, life is short. Let's love each other. Let's be friends. Let's follow the dreams. It took me three months before I resigned over fear imagine March 2020. What a time to resign from a very cushy for me, it was very good job and stock price went insanely up and I'm resigning and people look at me like are you? Are you What is wrong with you woman? Why are you leaving? Do you have a job? No, I don't. But just because you got scared at turbulence. That's why that's not right. Anyway, I got scared. And then I took one year project in between, it was something which is not corporate job, not one more time again. But something in between.

Andy Follows: 1:11:07

Yeah, it was a stepping stone like it is not a corporate job but a contract. So it's slightly less secure, feeling slightly more autonomous feeling. But on the route to something that you're doing now, just for the interest of tying up the story. You met your current husband at Tesla, what happened to the previous husband with the startup in Paris?

Elisa Viaud: 1:11:32

Many years successful marriage.

Andy Follows: 1:11:34

I love the way you put that.

Elisa Viaud: 1:11:35

We were happy we grew up together. We were same age, when we met very early 20s. Two kids explore the world went to India, Morocco went to the places I would never go by myself. We saw the ocean for the first time together, you know, stuff like this. He's from very modest family and me too this Ukrainian and he he speaks Russian, the French guy. Then we just grew up, we outgrow each other. And then he went we went separate road. And you know what's funny? When it's really over? The separation is calm. Easy. Well not say easy, but there's no doors been shut, there is no voice raised. It's just suddenly free. And is that okay. And it was just peaceful. Yeah.

Andy Follows: 1:12:26

Can I also ask because I think I know the answer to this. And I'd like I'd like to mention it the contract that you did. What organisation? Did you do that with?

Elisa Viaud: 1:12:35

Arrival.

Andy Follows: 1:12:36

And how was your experience there? How did that differ? And I'm really interested. If you said someone Uber Tesla Arrival, our they're all pretty similar, you know, tech, mobility companies. How was it different at arrival?

Elisa Viaud: 1:12:50

Well, Tesla was on the dog, right? But not when I joined when I joined 2017 it was another time when I said Tesla and people was like, oh my god, wow. Arrival was an underdog, a British startup, which had big ambitions and still have. And I was actually proud to say you never heard about Arrival Wait, you will. And for me, it was like, we're going to do it, we're going to make it well. It's nobody's fault. Things are difficult now because of the supply chain and other reasons. But I guess also depends on from from which angle we're looking. But that's not the topic of our conversation. I loved it, because I also felt that my role was very different. I was basically, HR manager working with different parts of organisation. And I had much more holistic view, this time, more than multiple products. Very few people know that Arrival has multiple products, and working with different types of people, brilliant people, the finest engineers in the market. I loved that. But it was enough for one year.

Andy Follows: 1:13:59

And have you decided that at the end of this year, then I will start my practice?

Elisa Viaud: 1:14:03

Yeah. Two months before the end of the contract. I even wanted to end it. I wanted to get out faster, but then okay. 12 months probably will be complete. And then it's the contract is the contract. Yeah, but I had sought to jump off the ship.

Andy Follows: 1:14:20

So you've made this transition now from corporate world to having your own practice. And how long have you had your practice?

Elisa Viaud: 1:14:27

So 2021 2023? Almost three years, the third year,

Andy Follows: 1:14:33

Right. Tell us a little bit about what you're doing and the how that's going?

Elisa Viaud: 1:14:38

So what I do, I work with founders and leaders on one on one basis, almost like a therapist but in an organisational setting. So when it comes to uncovering blind spots, there is not a better setting than one on one with somebody who sees who hears and also can say, because friends are not telling us I'm not telling my friends like, look, this is a pattern. Why is it happening to you for the third time? What's your input in this situation? I'm not telling this to my friends I want to be liked. I mean, when I'm hired by CEO series A series B Series C startup, and he's telling me this keep happening to me, like my employees, or this or that, it's like, interestingly enough, you mentioned that in a previous organisation, it was the same. So what's your path of responsibility? But it's just one example. And then when it comes to teams, I often called in to help when it's like, can you build trust? Okay, I can definitely, how much time do you give me two hours of No, cross, it's not something we build in two hours. Trust would be it's consistently we build trust every moment every time. But what I often do is monthly team activities, when we address different topics, it can be trust, it can be performance, it can be vulnerability, it can be, I like to call it draining the tension. Often people just, there's a lot happening. And they don't even talk about this, because there is no place and time. And maybe an external person, I can handle it, I can contain and also give the direction of the conversation when people need to tell each other about non finished business about things which were not said properly. So at the end, I call it building relationship, because relationship is one thing which makes or breaks the business relationship between co founders relationship between board members, team members, and I know people leaving jobs, not because of the jobs because their relationship with the manager. Which brings me to this third topic. I'm about to open a private practice finally, with the proper couch and two chairs. Okay, as the relationship therapist, it took me two years postgrad and two more years, again, to continue to be certified relationship therapist, which is different than psychologist.

Andy Follows: 1:17:18

So you'll be helping people in romantic relationships. Any, any. So you could have two co founders coming in and lying on your couch?

Elisa Viaud: 1:17:28

Sitting, maybe not lying. But yeah.

Andy Follows: 1:17:34

I was exaggerating. Yeah. That's wonderful. So that's going to be the third part of your practice. And so you have achieved and I know there's a long way to go. There's always it never ends. It's always building but you've achieved the framework now that you aspired to have when you were younger, that you would have this practice. What a wonderful experience you have from the executive search, Korn Ferry, white gloves, Uber, Tesla, Arrival, even the Dassault part. All of these people that you've worked with, and your academic qualifications or your studies into the conceptual side, with all this practical side of 1000s of people you'll have touched and been involved with helping them either bring them into businesses or moving them in businesses, how well equipped you are to be doing what you're doing now plus your manner and the own background that you have that just going back to what you said about pearls. Was it that the oysters and the pearls?

Elisa Viaud: 1:18:41

Im going to make it now more dramatic, I'm gonna reframe happy oysters never make pearls. I only say only wounded oysters make pearls. Because a pearl is a is a wound which healed.

Andy Follows: 1:18:53

So you're a wounded oyster?

Elisa Viaud: 1:18:55

Like many of us. Yeah. And I see the beauty and the place of a wound.

Andy Follows: 1:19:01

What I find a fascinating coincidence is that this morning, my wife showed me a video of how they get pearls out of oysters. I've never seen that before, and that she should show me that this morning. And it should be a theme of our conversation is amazing coincidence. Is there anything I haven't asked you Elisa which means I've missed out on something.

Elisa Viaud: 1:19:23

What I can tell you more about is being able to look back at my experience and learning the lessons instead of camouflaging with more diplomas with more achievements with more company names, helps me to actually be efficient and effective with other people who come into me with even greater diplomas, you know, the Ivy League and but when something deep inside is not reworked, reframed, either it's a burnout or painful experience. Or a bump in the road, every leader at certain point will experience a bump in the road. It is difficult to continue build career in a way, but it's deep down inside makes us happy. From externally, we all know how we can project the beautiful success of a success. But when it comes down to how do you feel on Sunday night, before Monday morning, that's for me the success when I'm excited to start Monday when I'm excited to fly for two clients a workshop in Washington DC, even though it's seven hours flight, and I'm jet lagged, and I love it. And my purpose today is to make it for as many people as possible. That's the purpose.

Andy Follows: 1:20:49

Thank you. I don't want to say too much after that talk. Because I think that was a beautiful ending. And that idea of a metric that is how do you feel on Sunday night? Take that as one of your main metrics for whether you're doing the right thing or not. It's been an absolute pleasure. I anticipated that it would be I was really looking forward to our conversation. And I'm really grateful that you've joined me and shared so openly. Elisa, thank you very much.

Elisa Viaud: 1:21:19

Thank you, Andy. And I think you're great host because I think it's the most vulnerable session I had with somebody I just met physically not before, right? We corresponded. And we almost missed each other at Tesla by one month. Right? So we basically colleagues, but I think when we listen, when there is space, people open up, and I don't know, maybe your listeners will like it. Maybe somebody will say, Oh my God, there's a lot about her. But hey, this is a, this is who I am. And I'm not going to hide it. Because if you come working with me in one on one as executive or you bring your team with me, you will hear the stories. And we can't be loved and liked by everybody, but those whom I resonate with. It's gonna be great. I promise. Thank you. Thank you.

Andy Follows: 1:22:13

Thank you. That's a it's a great compliment you pay me by being that open. So thank you very much indeed. I've really enjoyed it.

Elisa Viaud: 1:22:23

Perfect. Thank you so much.

Andy Follows: 1:22:30

You've been listening to Career-view Mirror with me, Andy Follows I hope you enjoyed hearing Elisa's story as much as I did, and found some helpful points to reflect on some key moments in Elisa's story that stood out for me were her parents becoming Jehovah's Witnesses and the impact that that had on her and her family situation, her grandmother drip feeding ideas to her that fueled her independence, that she read lots of literature growing up that equipped her with differing perspectives how through her reading, she came across the concept of unconditional love, and realised that she was not getting that from her parents. She initially became interested in psychology to understand how people could love without fear of God. How big a moment it must have been when she realised that she needed to disappear, and taking the decision to move to Angers in France with her husband, recognising that she needed some more life experience before she could become a psychologist, and that working in HR was the next best thing. Aspiring to work with one of the top five executive search companies and ultimately having opportunities to work with two of them. Then she experienced the taste of high volume recruitment at Dassault before a call from Uber takes her to Amsterdam, the pros of working for a mission driven corporate culture but the cons of suffering a burnout in her late 20s. Moving to Tesla and experiencing the intensity of selecting candidates to put forward to Elon Musk. A contract with Arrival helps her to transition from the corporate world to having her own business and now earlier than she had originally envisaged she has her own practice and is about to launch a third pillar of relationship counselling. If you'd like to reach out to Elisa, you'll find her LinkedIn contact details in our show notes. If you enjoy listening to my guest stories, please could you do me a favour and share an episode with someone you lead parent or mentor or a friend who you think might also benefit? Thank you to Elisa for joining me for our conversation. Thank you to our sponsors for this episode ASKE Consulting and Aquilae and thank you to the Career-view Mirror team, without whom we would not be able to share our guests life and career stories. And above all, thank you to you for listening