Side Mirror: Lucy Ryan on why professional women over 50 leave their jobs at the top of their game - and what business leaders can do about it.

For this episode I am joined by Dr Lucy Ryan who has a well-earned reputation as a wise, vibrant leadership coach and a voice that leaders take seriously.

Lucy is a senior lecturer at the University of East London and a visiting research fellow at the University of Liverpool.

With a master's in Positive Psychology and a PhD in Leadership, she has developed over 10,000 global leaders, blending psychology with practical, accessible guidance, encapsulated in her 2021 book, Lunchtime Learning for Leaders.

Lucy’s latest book “Revolting Women” offers a fresh and informed take on why professional women over 50 leave their jobs at the top of their game - and what business leaders can do about it.

In this book she draws on her PhD research and extensive experience of working with female leaders to challenge assumptions of women over 50 in the workplace and promote their strengths.

Revolting Women shows that assumptions about declining midlife motivation and energy just aren’t true for women and reveals how you can retain and develop this invaluable talent pool with a better understanding of their challenges and a few simple changes.

LinkedIn: Lucy Ryan

Website: www.lucyryan.co.uk

Buy Revolting Women

Thank you to our sponsors:

ASKE Consulting
Email: hello@askeconsulting.co.uk

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Email: cvm@aquilae.co.uk

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Episode recorded on 20 November, 2023.

Transcript

Ed Eppley: 0:00

I am sitting in lovely Siesta Key Florida.

Sherene Redelinghuys: 0:03

I'm coming from Bangkok in Thailand,

Daniel van Treeck: 0:05

Prague in the Czech Republic,

Osman Abdelmoneim: 0:07

Cairo in Egypt,

Holger Drott: 0:08

Auckland, New Zealand,

Shannon Faulkner: 0:09

London, England.

Andy Follows: 0:10

Welcome to CAREER-VIEW MIRROR, the automotive podcast that goes behind the scenes with key players in the industry looking back over their careers so far, sharing insights to help you with your own. I'm your host, Andy Follows. Hello, listeners and welcome to this Side Mirror episode of CAREER-VIEW MIRROR. If you're a regular listener, thank you and welcome back, you'll be aware that most of our episodes feature interviews with people with a link to the automotive industry who kindly share their life and career journeys with us. We celebrate their careers, listen to their stories, and learn from their experiences. We also publish these Side Mirror episodes in which we introduce guests or topics related to careers or developing ourselves or people we lead parent or mentor that we trust you'll find valuable. For this episode I'm joined by Dr. Lucy Ryan, who has a well earned reputation as a wise vibrant leadership coach and a voice that leaders take seriously. Lucy is a senior lecturer at the University of East London and a visiting research fellow at the University of Liverpool with a master's in positive psychology and a PhD in leadership. She has developed over 10,000 global leaders blending psychology with practical accessible guidance and capsulated in her 2021 book, lunchtime learning for leaders, Lucy's latest book, Revolting Women offers a fresh and informed take on why professional women over 50 leave their jobs at the top of their game and what business leaders can do about it. In this book, she draws on her PhD research and extensive experience of working with female leaders to challenge assumptions of women over 50 in the workplace and promote their strengths. Revolting Women shows that assumptions about declining midlife, motivation and energy just aren't true for women, and reveals how you can retain and develop this invaluable talent pool with a better understanding of their challenges and a few simple changes. I'm delighted to introduce Lucy, her research and her ideas to you in this episode. I look forward to hearing what resonates with you. If you're listening for the first time. Hello, I'm Andy Follows I'm a trusted adviser to senior leaders in the automotive industry. I work alongside them and their teams to enable Fulfilling Performance. Contact me if you'd like to know more. Let me take a moment to tell you about our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by ASKE Consulting who are experts in executive search resourcing solutions and talent management across all sectors of the automotive industry in the UK and Europe. I've known them for almost 20 years and I can think of no more fitting sponsor for Career-View Mirror. They're the business we go to at Aquilae when we're looking for talent for our clients and for projects that we're working on. ASKE was founded by Andrew McMillan, whose own automotive career includes board level positions with car brands and leasing companies. All ASKE Consultants have extensive client side experience which means they bring valuable insight and perspective for both their employer and candidate customers. My earliest experience of working with Andrew was back in 2004, when he helped me hire regional managers from my leasing Sales Team at Alphabet. More recently, when Aquilae was helping a US client to establish a car subscription business as consulting was alongside as helping us to develop our people strategy and to identify and bring onboard suitable talent. Clients we've referred to ASKE have had an equally positive experience. Andrew and the team at ASKE are genuinely interested in the long term outcomes for you and the people they place with you. They even offer the reassurance of a two year performance guarantee, which means they have skin in the game when working with you. If you're keen to secure the most talented and high potential people to accelerate your business and gain competitive advantage. do get in touch with them and let them know I sent you. You can email Andrew the team at hello@askeconsulting.co.uk or check out their website for more details and more client feedback at www.askeconsulting.co.uk ASKE is spelt ASKE? You'll find these contact details in the show notes for this episode. Okay, let's get back to our episode. Hello, Lucy and welcome and where are you coming to us from today?

Lucy Ryan: 4:47

I live in Cheltenham. So I'm there just by the racecourse. Lovely.

Andy Follows: 4:53

And thank you very much for joining me. We talk a lot about careers on CAREER-VIEW MIRROR you've written an amazing In the book about midlife women and what's happening in their careers, I saw you'd written it and you're getting amazing publicity for it. It seems to be well received. Can you just say a little bit about what has it been like? How has the reaction been to your book?

Lucy Ryan: 5:15

Surprisingly amazing. I'm sure that's not English. But there we go. This is a, what I thought was a little book. I published a leadership book a couple of years ago, and that did well. But something like 15 million business books are published a year. So if you just get a slice of the action, that's great. And so this one came out two only two months ago, and has just hit the nerve of so many people. And I've suddenly found it across all the broadsheets across Sky across the radio, and a number of podcasts. So it's been quite a lovely, thrilling ride. And I'm glad it's hit a nerve.

Andy Follows: 6:02

Yeah, it deserves to hit a nerve. And we're going to talk about it in quite some detail. Great, I feel very privileged that you've joined me, given that I seen reviews of cracking review, I think was in the Financial Times was one of the ones I saw. So you're clearly quite the celebrity, right? On this topic. And we'll talk about you know what it's all about. And if people want to invite you to get close to their organisations and help them in this area, then they've very much we'll encourage them to do that. So let's start a little bit, though, if I may, with a little bit about your own career and how you come to have, you know, how have you designed your career and life to be in this situation now to be to have written this book,

Lucy Ryan: 6:49

I love the idea that I've designed my career, I don't feel that I've designed it so much as it just keeps iterating. So I've had a number of very different pivots over the years, starting from being a singer on the stage,

Andy Follows: 7:08

really,

Lucy Ryan: 7:09

then I went into sales, then I hadn't, you know, kind of at least a decade long, big sales career in the UK and Australia. Then I moved into sales training, Andy, and that's when you and I met. Yep, I was doing a lot of sales training. And then I moved into leadership training, leadership, coaching, retrained in that educated myself along the way, because I kind of left school with barely a qualification. So when I was 40, I did a master's when I was 50. I did a PhD, which then gave me another pivot into an academic career. And then along the way, I wrote three books. So it's as if there is something in me that every decade or every five years, I want to do something new and to challenge myself. And to think where this next career move might be.

Andy Follows: 8:07

Right? Well, I can tell I'm going to be jumping around a little bit. So I hope you don't mind that because there's a number of things I want to explore the one I'm thinking, Oh, wow, you'd be an amazing guest for one of our CAREER-VIEW MIRROR episodes where we just find out how did you go from a singer to all these iterations? The thing that comes to mind though is your mum, because I've seen pictures of your mom on you and your mom on social media and that she's not hanging about either in terms of doing things. So would you mind just saying a little bit about her and maybe how she's inspiring you?

Lucy Ryan: 8:41

Yeah, it's a funny thing, isn't it? LinkedIn, I noticed that when I put pictures of my mom or my dogs, I get huge numbers of impressions. You know, nobody's interested in my career or this amazing article. It's like, Oh, I love your mum. So Mum is 95 and still lives independently and is pretty vibrant, mentally, and is a firm believer. She's very stoic. She's of that generation, you know, very stoic where you should look always outwards, not inwards. She has no truck with my psychology, my interest in psychology, my career as a psychologist. It's always just look outwards. But she has also, you know, at she decided to write and write children's books, which I helped to get published. And at 90, my dad died. And she was, you know, they've been together for 60 years. And she was really, for the first time, you know, she seems really depressed, is accurate. She stopped going out. And I suggested she needed to find a new purpose. And she needed to just get out and get out of the house and find something to do. And I thought she would go to On the road in my patronising way, and get a job, Oxfam and help out, she comes back, she gives me a ring. And she goes, I've done a key what you said, Darling, and I've got a new job as a DJ. It's like, wow, how did you do that? And she said, Well, I went to the local radio station. And you're always talking about diversity and all these words. And I said that I didn't hear anyone on their radio that sounded like me. And sounded old, and suggested that they should think about that. And they did. And she reads the news. She was in last night reading stories that she's written. So she does a kind of whole storytelling side. And she got an award recently, which was Liz, the one hit wonder, because she had no idea that you could do takes of something. So as far as she's concerned, you just record once, so she's pretty awesome.

Andy Follows: 11:10

Love it. So if we want to listen to your mom, if we're gonna tune in Where is she broadcasting?

Lucy Ryan: 11:16

Oh, it's Warminster radio, I don't know, frequently.

Andy Follows: 11:22

But oh, what a fantastic story. And I calculate then if you follow in her footsteps, you could have eight to 10 different careers still, with your five year?

Lucy Ryan: 11:31

I know it's a bit worrying isn't it,

Andy Follows: 11:36

well, there's plenty of opportunities to try stuff isn't there?

Lucy Ryan: 11:40

Well, I always think it's quite spooky, you know, as we'll we'll talk a lot about midlife. But I will say it's quite spooky when we talk about retirement like 60. Whereas I feel like I'm just getting going. Yes. And I know a lot of people do my age. I wrote about it being a female thing that we we start getting going. Because we've often had these very zigzag careers, in out in out. And then at 60. It's like, okay, now I can do something for me.

Andy Follows: 12:11

Yes, you do write about that, and how, for men, it's often more of a lot more talk of retirement and having had the privilege of being able to be full on uninterrupted in their careers. They're starting to think about winding down now. Whereas as you just said, women are starting to think, right, finally, all the other things. I can give this my full attention and they're energised, and they're looking forward to it, and they want to be part of it. So yeah, definitely. That came out for me. So you said it's a little book. You described it as a little book. But yeah, in the big Yeah. When we're talking about the success. It's hard and the impact it's having. Its little in terms of Yeah, it's 160 pages. But my goodness, is it concentrated? It's, I think, because if I write you wrote it, first of all, it started off as a piece of research for your doctorate. That's, and so it's got this incredible, all these references, and all of that you must have I, you know, how many hours and months and years of reading you've done around to come out with this super concentrated 160 pages. So it is relatively easy to read, in terms of its short, and you've written it in a very accessible way. However, the overwhelming sense I got was how incredibly well researched it is. And it's almost definitive in terms of I was convinced I was absolutely convinced by your arguments. Yeah.

Lucy Ryan: 13:43

Yeah. Great.

Andy Follows: 13:44

Which came first then was it was it the idea that you wanted to do the doctorate thesis? Was it that you want to write the book or was it that you notice this particular issue and felt hang on a minute, I need to find out more about this. What is going on here? And can you battens that came first?

Lucy Ryan: 14:01

Yeah, definitely. I mean, book was a complete afterthought. The book was literally in the last year. What came first is I coach a lot of women in leadership. And just at the point where they were kind of ready to step up in their careers. They were stepping out, they were stepping down. They were stepping sideways. They were making unusual career decisions, rather than up and I was looking out for Research on Women at midlife, professional female leaders at midlife and found about three papers, no more. I mean, it was a complete gap in terms of the research of what happens to professional women at midlife. So I knew I wanted to do a PhD and I knew it had to be something. So absorbing that it would last me for kind of, I knew it would take a lot of effort for four years. So that was the thing I decided to study. I didn't expect it to be so hard to get a supervisor or to get it off the ground. You know, it took me a year to even get that bit going.

Andy Follows: 15:22

You said you found it difficult to find a university that would accept it? And

Lucy Ryan: 15:27

yeah, because I mean, when we think about all that is written about the menopause, and midlife women in the last has only been the last five years. And I'm talking about 10 years ago, I started this, and there really wasn't anything written. And it was described as unpublishable uninteresting. So I was rejected everywhere. Wow. So it was pretty difficult to get it off the ground. And just at the point, I thought, Okay, this isn't going to be a goer, a woman, I was coaching Dorothy Byrne, who was then head of news for Channel Four, when no, we're not letting this go. made all these calls, instead of a coaching session, we coaching her, she made all these calls to the great and good. And one of them led to an academic called Professor Caroline Cottrell, who agreed to be my supervisor, and off I went,

Andy Follows: 16:22

right. And then you've really contributed so

Lucy Ryan: 16:23

You've definitely not picked up the wrong and wrong much now in terms of pulling all this together. And I took away some very clear messages, which I'm happy to share to help sort of listeners get a feel for what's great. I mean, I want people to go away and read the whole book. But in terms of what I took away, that there is a very real issue. It's an age old issue. So this is we're talking going back to the you go back to the ancient Greeks, there really were no stones, there were no stones left unturned. There's no wiggle room for anyone to come up with a Yeah, but it's, it's age old, it's systemic, as well. So this is it's all built into our systems. And I think that can be the way I took that and I'd be interested what you think. But almost this men reading this book and thinking like I did, oh, my goodness, this is worse than I had ever even conceived of. I hadn't given it thought I hadn't. Obviously, there hasn't been stuff out there until you put it all together. So the fact that it's systemic, there's almost it's like, Okay, guys, don't waste too much time making apologies for what's gone before, don't start getting defensive about what's gone before and don't get into denial about what it is. But just accept, it's there. It's real, it's systemic. Now let's focus more of our attention on fixing it. And you've done all this hard work of clearing it all up putting it all out there. So accept it accept that there's certain situations that there are multiple challenges out there that just simply affect women disproportionately, particularly midlife women, and you talk about and I won't, you know, let you tell the more of the story than me. But this is what I was, it was all sinking in as I was reading it. And you also talk about the fact that there's these multiple factors that affect women disproportionately, and they all sort of come at the same time. And it's the, it's the end of the stick. The message that I wanted to convey was that collision, as you call it, of all these things at the same time, which has such a devastating effect and makes it so hard. And by two thirds of the way through I'm I'm just disillusioned and despondent thinking. And I don't think I'm the only one because you mentioned your PhD examiner. So thank goodness, you wrote about the revolt, because up until that point, now his thing is, it's just a list of sort of challenges. So we get to that point where all of a sudden you show how it's temporary, this collision is it's a temporary phase in midlife, women's lives, and they emerge from it much more powerful. They've been forged by these events. And there really is a potential upside here if we can grasp it. So let's, let's read the book, let's learn let's talk about these topics. So that's what I took away. Great from it. Is that the message that you were hoping or have I missed? You know, have I picked up the wrong end of the stick? firstly, it is a very real issue that midlife women just at the point when they are able to step up into positions of influence are leaving. They are exiting organisations or they're stepping down stepping out. That's a very real issue. So that was the first thing. Second thing I wanted to kind of lay down is why and you know, as you've articulated a lot of that revolves around the collision. Some of it around gendered ageism. You know, men face a lot of ageism within organisations agenda to it. and it just gets messy or corrosive. And then the third message which you beautifully articulated is this nature of a revolt that women are leaving, because A, they want to redefine their later career in their own way. And organisations do not seem prepared at the moment to resist this idea of what I call full time foolishness that if you want to be a senior leader in our organisation, you have to be here full time. So we've been leave at and carve their own career success. So I wanted to lay out that issue. And I, I wanted people reading it to go, these are amazing women, these are vibrant, creative, energetic wise people who have a lot to add to an organisation. So rather than us just celebrating that they set up their own companies, and they do you know, 67% of new businesses are set up by women over 55, rather than us just celebrating that. I would love them to be retained in their organisation. You know, that's my kind of bottom line here for writing the book, which is yes, as an issue. But please retain them.

Andy Follows: 21:27

Yeah, because it's not forever, it's great that they are stepping out. And they're able to create businesses on their own terms and sort of seed and they can balance things. But that's not for everybody. And it's not addressing the waste. For those that don't manage to do it. So let's go into it. I think it'd be good to go into just a little bit of detail on the collision, because I think for those we've used that word a few times in the conversation, just what do you mean collision commission? So let's just talk about some of the factors that conspire at the same time,

Lucy Ryan: 21:56

okay, so it's a unique phase of life whereby a certain number of factors collide for middle aged women. So some of those factors are firstly, the menopause, which can be dreadful for some women or pass other women by, but it's certainly every woman is going to go through it, every middle aged woman is going to go through it or younger if it's forced on them. So you've got the menopause, you've got parental care for a lot of women. 91% of women are still picking up the load of that. And unlike the care for our younger children, where, you know, for me, I had neighbours and friends, we did swats we had nurseries, I had lots of ways to juggle this. For parental care. It's quite lonely. And it's hard work. And you get these calls in the middle of the night to go and help. And sometimes you have to suddenly take three days off. So you've got parental care, elder care in the mix. There is a major issue with our older children having mental health challenges. And that's flying very much under the radar. The statistics are there. But it's a sad fact that our older children are experiencing quite considerable mental health challenges. Plus you've got issues like a loss, bereavement, divorce, redundancy, financial issues, so you have a collision of events that are unique to midlife and fall. Mostly, I'm not from minute saying that men don't experience a midlife collision. And often we've used the midlife crisis as a kind of way to describe it. That's very male. And actually, it's always accompanied, isn't it? Midlife crisis with a kind of nudge nudge, wink, wink, he's having an affair. He's bought a Ferrari isn't that funny. And of course, there's nothing funny about it. So I think it is quite serious for men too. I would like that to be my next area of study. But for the moment, I'm looking at women because they're the ones leaving, not usually the men.

Andy Follows: 24:18

There's also the point you make about people having children older, so the children are hanging around, but they've still got school aged children or be it you've got a few more resources to help manage those. And it was interesting that the temporal nature of that that all comes together and often leaves women with no option other than to leave because as you say, their organisations aren't sufficiently flexible to adapt and accommodate it. So they just end up having to leave. And then you point out which was part of the uplifting light at the end of the tunnel, sort of hopeful nature of the book is that but of course this passes that. Yeah, sadly the parents do. to eventually pass,

Lucy Ryan: 25:01

sadly, our parents do die. You know, sadly, my father in law has just died. And that has taken a lot of time of the last three of our four parents have had dementia for Steve and I. And that's taken a lot of time. And so that's temporary. Our menopause passes, we enter a postmenopausal phase, our children get better or get help. So all these things, enter new phases. And so then you have all these women at kind of 60 going, right, what now? I'm ready, I'm able helped me get back in again. And there's no space for them to get back in again.

Andy Follows: 25:44

And not only are they ready and able, but I've noticed in all these hundreds of or certainly over 100 career conversations I've had is that what really strengthens people and supports their successes, the challenges that they've been through the crucible moments in their life that create them into the people they are. So these women have just been through this incredible period, the collision period which forges them exactly. Forged in fire. Yes. And they got great clarity on what they want or what they don't want. Yep. So they're even stronger, if you like,

Lucy Ryan: 26:24

exactly right. They're much more resilient. And isn't that the kind of trendy word in business as everyone wants? You know, we want everyone to be resilient. And you have that. You're also right, though, that they know what they want. And they know what they don't want. So after this period, what you have is a lot of women who go i are not working 24/7. I've just been coaching someone who's had a terrible collision period. And she's a director of a very large nonprofit organisation, and said, I'll stay but I have to stay on four days a week. And they've said, no, no, it's needs to be five. So they're losing all this wisdom. It's a crazy decision. Even though she said, I'll work eight till six, I'll make hours up in a different way. But I have to have Friday off, I have too many people to support. And they said, No, we need you here on a Friday.

Andy Follows: 27:20

And that's a bit that just seems so out of date short sighted. And if you agree, if you think how we were pre COVID, you might have expected a similar response to know you've got to come into the office. We can't have you working from home, but we've managed to get our heads around that we've been forced into getting our heads around that you gave one story which was game was really it just showed the simplicity of actually, you know, how we could improve things was, was the lady coming down in the live Lori, Lori was her name just tell her story if you don't mind Lucy?

Lucy Ryan: 27:54

Okay. Yeah, I mean, it was the most extraordinary story. I'm not surprised that you remember it. In that Laurie was global talent director. In the middle of a collision. She was going through the menopause, but she's got HRT, she was starting to sleep again. So that was kind of okay. But a mother had heart disease, and she really wants to be with her. And then one of her twins had anorexia. And that was like the icing on the cake. She knew she needed to be with her daughter and her mum, but she was a breadwinner, or the breadwinner, but she wrestled with it and decided she just needed to be with her mum and daughter and decided to resign. She gets in the lift to go down and just think about it before she resigns gonna have a coffee, think about it gets into the lift with her friend who is the global HR director who was in tears. And they talk in the lift her friend, her dad was dying. And she wanted for five weeks with him before he died, and she had four young children. And there was no give in the organisation. And so she had decided to resign that day. So they went down in the lift, they went and had a coffee and literally Andy over coffee, they crafted a job share solution. They go back up in the lift. And they present that to the guy who was their boss, who agrees and they were the first job share in this huge global organisation. So instead of losing both of them, the organisation kept them both kept all the wisdom kept all the knowledge, and they didn't have to resign either. But they wouldn't. Lori was under no illusion. She said Had I not come up with a solution. I know they would have said really sorry for you but bye bye She said, I absolutely know that and it took two of us to craft the solution. And to know this, this the HR system to craft this job share, and shop chairs are staring us in the face. And there's still so few of them around.

Andy Follows: 30:17

Yeah, well, I thought that was super exciting possibility. And I know you caveat today that clearly they knew their way around the business. They had a boss who was a little bit open minded as well. And so I'm not saying again, this is a panacea for everything. But goodness me is not beyond the wit of men and women to design these things. I'm thinking, how intentional would they have both been not only have you saved all of their wisdom and experience and capability, but they're going to be so intentional and so focused in doing that, that you're probably going to be getting even better than having both you're getting synergistic sort of results.

Lucy Ryan: 30:55

Yeah, I agree. It is a much underused solution to men, women at midlife.

Andy Follows: 31:04

Yeah. I think that's what I'm thinking the amount of choice because these women have worked out what they don't want. When they're choosing after this collision to do something. It's very well thought through. They've not just carried on the conveyor belt that they were on and absent mindedly ended up at a point they're choosing to do this and that brings a whole host of benefits. What sort of things are you doing Lucy when you're working with organisations? How are you helping say they've liked me they've they've come to terms with my goodness, this is didn't realise it. But this is real, it's happening. There's no denying it, we ought, we are wasting talent. We are doing ourselves a disservice letting these women not only doing them a disservice, we're doing our business a disservice, letting this value just leak out. How can we do something about it? How are you helping them?

Lucy Ryan: 31:56

There are some easy wins and some long term wins. You know, exactly. As you said earlier, this is a real issue. It's age old, it's systemic. And systemic barriers are always so tricky for organisations to tackle that they don't. But the first thing is look at data. You know, if there is strategic intent here, then I want to work with the board and or the senior leadership team and look at data. We know that women in their leadership careers as broken rungs in the ladder, usually post one child, they come back post two children they leave, that's usually one of the biggest broken rungs. But if they stay, the biggest broken rung is that middle age. So the first thing I want to do is help an organisation look at their data. Where are the broken rungs? Where are they going? Why are they going? Then the second thing I want to do is good, or what I do do is is some good qualitative interviews, how are the middle aged women feeling? What What are they doing? What's happening to them. And so you get the some good quantitative data, you get some good qualitative interviews, so you get a feel for what actually is going on in this organisation. The third thing I do is what's called midlife check ins, which is the idea that you should have a good conversation with your midlife executives that goes beyond how's this week? What are you doing? What are your tasks? It's actually more holistic. And seriously, how are you? I felt that in the pandemic, we got very good at those conversations. Andy, I felt we really, we did have kind of how are you today? And I think we've already lost that habit. And what happens it's I call it the silent revolution, is women are just leaving like that you suddenly one day, they're full time the next week, they're gone. And if you knew what was going on in their life, you would have a much better idea of what's going on. So there's this notion of midlife check ins. So finding out from the women what's going on in their lives, can

Andy Follows: 34:20

it Can I jump in just because a little sort of Yeah, please do. We've had the first the first few things that you do, but it's brought. Yeah, the points I'd like to make on the back of that are because I think some listeners might be thinking yes, but Lucy is a lot better than it was. There's 40 40% of women in senior positions now. And then what I learned from your book is your year that includes non exec directors, as soon as you take the non exec directors out, we're looking at 11% women, so I just want anyone who's listening to this thinking yeah, no, no, no, they've got their, you know, their defensive arguments already. I'd say, guys just read the book. Look, look at your data,

Lucy Ryan: 35:02

every day, thank you for thank you for bringing it up. That's why I start with data. Because what most organisations genuinely do often with a positive intent is they go, we have sold the gender equality at the top of our organisations, we have 40 50% of women on the board. So the first thing to look at is, are they employed executives? Or are they non executive directors, mostly, they are non executive directors. And that figure has plateaued for nine years. So 11 to 14%, of female employed executives has plateaued for that long. And we are covering this stickiness you up with saying, I've got loads of female non executive directors more than I can count. And I would say, there's the problem. Women have left the organization's looking for portfolio careers. And therefore, seeing non executive directorships as a way to do that. What a shame they're not actually employed by you. So that's part of this gathering the data.

Andy Follows: 36:19

Yeah, find out really what's going on in your organisation Don't be under the skin. Yeah, look beyond the sort of sound bites that we might have been exposed to, I think you said we're on track 136 years, it's gonna get worse, it was 100 or something. And now it's slipping to 136 years away from equity

Lucy Ryan: 36:42

Unfortunately, the pandemic has set us back, because women went back into the home. And then everyone went, Oh, it's really nice having you here. And it is harder for them to get back into work. And the trajectory seems to be for us to going back into the workplace now, rather than just retaining a hybrid nature. So at the moment, women's rise to the top of organisations has got worse rather than better. That's why I say we have to start with strategic intent. So the intent has to be to lift the lid on the rise of women within the organisation, and the desire to really do something about it. Because what it requires is actually agenda proofing of the succession plan.

Andy Follows: 37:36

So we're talking about midlife check ins and how we were better. And I'm just a such a fan. I guess being a coach as well, a fan of the power of one to one conversations and actually finding out what's really going on. I think it's interesting what you said about during COVID, we got a bit better, or we got better at it. And I can imagine it was because we could see into people's homes, we could see Oh, my goodness, this person has a life look, sometimes they have pets or children or, you know, and it was all of a sudden, in our faces couldn't ignore these people are human beings with more than just their professional side. And so it's a shame if we've lost a little bit of that openness now. So after the midlife check ins, what are some of the other steps that you take?

Lucy Ryan: 38:17

So there's data, there's check ins, and then there's a desire to remove some of the barriers. And that will come with what I was just mentioning this gender proofing of the succession plan. So how do we retain you as you go up the ladder, and that will require a dropping of the full time nature of senior leadership, and a desire to look at more flexible solutions, job sharing solutions, job swapping, and more creative pathways for senior leaders. So it really does require a good intent. And I understand why organisations are going, I don't want to do this. It's all working fine. We've got some non executives on the board. We've got some female executives were fine.

Andy Follows: 39:09

And I'm gonna say but but they won't be but then they won't be and then or not, you're not fine. You're not fine. You're wasting talent and capability, you're just not getting an invoice for it. If those women were able to invoice you every month for the waste that you've just created or allowed to happen, then you'd notice it but just because you're not getting an invoice for it doesn't mean that it's not costing you money. And so organisations who have the flexibility, have the intent, have the creativity to sit down, create sort of gender proof succession plan. If they will lean into that they're going to be generating value, they're going to retaining value in their business. Yeah,

Lucy Ryan: 39:52

yeah, there'll be a step ahead of so many other businesses,

Andy Follows: 39:57

and it's not going to cost a lot of money is it just needs Some time and

Lucy Ryan: 40:01

It needs it needs intent and time. Yeah, yeah. And I love your passion. I'm grateful for your passion.

Andy Follows: 40:09

Well, it's I love free money Lucy. And to me, it's free money. It's another example of hang on a minute. It spotting waste, everyone wants to go and beat up a supplier and get another 5% discount. Boring. Why don't we look at the waste in human potential that we're allowing to happen? And this seemed to be to me another huge example of Oh, my goodness, it's leaking out the business in you know,

Lucy Ryan: 40:37

yeah, I mean, we know how much it costs to recruit a senior executive into a business unit before we even start, it's approximately 30,000 pounds. So the waste just makes me weep. And I am littered with examples of women having to leave

Andy Follows: 40:55

so talented, you sit with them, you get to know them through your coaching, and then you hear their stories and they leave and you know, what that's worth? Okay. I'm hoping some people now are thinking actually, Lucy could be onto something. The Financial Times thinks you're onto something and all these other people, nevermind, little old me, so. Okay, I'm on the hook. Lucy, tell me what else? What other options do we have? Or other steps can we take?

Lucy Ryan: 41:22

Well, the steps we can take are to take it seriously. I really don't know how else to say it, Andy, in that it takes HR leaders, CEOs to listen to this and go, Yeah, okay. I'm gonna take it seriously. Rather than looking at their board and going, we're fine. We're at 40%, were fine. Because it won't last

Andy Follows: 41:52

you saying that, that we're at 40%? We're fine. Are they treating it like a tick box? Or are we saying no, hang on a minute, there's an opportunity here, this isn't just so that we can look good on paper, there's an opportunity here for us to

Lucy Ryan: 42:05

I think we have to go beyond the tick box, there has been a lot of tick boxing because the government has required gender equality. They haven't made it mandatory. But they've required organisations to have gender equality on their boards. So therefore, it's been achieved through the non Executive Director route. There still isn't the real intent to do it through their female employed executives, nor to really dig in to why these women are leaving and exiting. You know, certainly the big McKinsey report of 2022. And 2023, that's just out is saying for every female director who is stepping up to or stepping out. That's how big the issue is.

Andy Follows: 42:52

Yeah. So I'm thinking the penny hasn't dropped yet that this is not just about meeting government quotas or requirements, we can unlock some intentional resource for resilient women who've been through this collision and come out forged there. And we can really benefit from that.

Lucy Ryan: 43:11

Yeah, absolutely.

Andy Follows: 43:13

You can help organisations go through this. You can hold their Yeah, you can hold their hands and guide them through this to unleash some of this potential.

Lucy Ryan: 43:24

Without a doubt. They don't have to know the solution put it like that. What they have to want to do is have a conversation. I think it's Gloria Steinem, who said every revolution starts with conversation. And that's precisely what I want is more conversations with people at the top of organisations who genuinely want to look beyond their immediate data and want to resolve this.

Andy Follows: 43:54

Yes. And to add this to their diversity and inclusion, conversation,

Lucy Ryan: 44:00

age is rarely put in, by the way to diversity and inclusion agendas. Lots of other intersections are part of it, but age is still left off.

Andy Follows: 44:11

Do you have a vision of an organisation or a system that could more effectively recognise these women and their capabilities and organise and leverage what they bring?

Lucy Ryan: 44:24

I have at the risk of sounding like Martin Luther King, I do have a vision. You know, how are organisations and they are set up very well for maternity leave. So woman gets pregnant she goes on maternity leave, the system is very well sorted to support that much less so for paternity leave. But in Scandinavia, obviously maternity and paternity is mandatory, not so in this country. But maternity leave is sorted. And what we don't have Is midlife leave. And I would like there to be an enablement for people to take temporary leave for parental care for parental death and for collision. And for organisations to know this is temporary, and that women will come back forged in fire, more ready more loyal to give them what they need. So I would like us to have midlife leave ingrained in our organisations in the same way, we've accepted that we have maternity leave, we get introns in so that we accept that we've got kind of long 100 year careers going on. Now, as you say, apparently, I've got eight iterations of my career to go on. Quite scary, by the way. But we've got to take a longer term view is what I'm getting at. Yeah. And that would be my vision that we we accept that our society's ageing careers are going to be longer 50 year careers are going to become the norm not 30 agree is that we are going to need breaks throughout those careers. And this is just one of them. The same way maternity is if that can go for all genders. I'm well behind that.

Andy Follows: 46:32

Yep. And more focus on get more clarity around what's the end in mind for these organisations and for the role and for the task at hand. I always go back to the knowledge worker and sort of factory worker comparison of when and I talk about, you know, my my grandparents were in factories. And yes, you had to be there because that's where your loom was needed to be at the machine to be productive. But we ought to have come a little bit further in terms of working out now that it doesn't mean one person has to be doing that full time. If people communicate, we can have two people doing that. Yes, it'll take a bit more intentionality a bit more thought, but the rewards will be very worth working towards. Is there anything I haven't asked you, Lucy, where we've missed an opportunity to get a good point across or share a good story?

Lucy Ryan: 47:23

I don't think so. I mean, I would hope that your listeners don't feel the book is either asking men to take responsibility for this, or that it's a terrible story. I would hope people realise that this is an age old issue, very engrained in our organisational system. But with intent, there are really some cool solutions, like succession planning, like the job sharing, like the flexibility, like midlife check ins like midlife leave that all staring us in the face. And take some good conversations.

Andy Follows: 48:07

Yeah, well, let me reiterate, then I think he's very optimistic and hopeful. The opportunity that's there, I think you have been so thorough, and conclusive going to the data laying out the evidence beforehand, dispelling a lot of the myths that still exist. So that there really is no wiggle room. It's like, okay, this is real, it's systemic. Now, let's look at all the opportunities, we have to not this isn't I mean, I'm sure it starts out as being for It was for the women that you were coaching, you know, they were the original sort of seeds of why to do this, but

Lucy Ryan: 48:41

They were the spark, but it's a business book.

Andy Follows: 48:44

It's a business book. And it's businesses that are going to benefit. And so I would definitely encourage listeners to read it and to get as excited about it, as I did about the potential opportunity from just a bit of creativity. A bit of more up to date thinking on how we do these things. It's not a prerequisite. You don't have to read the book, you can just get Lucy to come in. And help you if you're not a big reader, just go straight to just Yes, talk to Lucy, and she'll tell you the bits you need to know right now and help you Yeah,

Lucy Ryan: 49:20

or link in with me. And you'll see, you'll see all sorts of stuff on LinkedIn. But yeah, just talk to me. It's that easy.

Andy Follows: 49:26

Yes. So we'll put those out. We'll put some links in the show notes to the episode to your LinkedIn to a website and where people can buy the book. Great. Thank you so much,

Lucy Ryan: 49:34

You, too. You too, Andy. Thank you for having me. Lucy. It's been a privilege and a joy to talk to you about it.

Andy Follows: 49:41

You're very welcome. Bye bye for now.

Lucy Ryan: 49:44

Bye.

Andy Follows: 49:50

You've been listening to CAREER-VIEW MIRROR with me. Andy Follows As you could probably tell, I feel quite passionate about Lucy's research findings and recommendations. At first I found the evidence she shares in her book confronting challenging and not a little shaming. But Lucy's book does more than hold the mirror up to the injustices facing our midlife women colleagues in our organisations. She explains how we can change our paradigms, our approach and our systems to leverage their wisdom, energy and experience and enable them to fulfil their ambitions. I find that opportunity convincing, exciting, and very much in keeping with my own mission to enable Fulfilling Performance. If you'd like to reach out to Lucy, you'll find her contact details in the show notes to this episode. If you enjoy listening to our episodes, please could you do me a huge favour and share them with someone you lead parent or mentor or a friend you think will also appreciate them? Thank you to Lucy for joining me thank you to our sponsors for this episode ASKE Consulting and Aquilae and thank you to the Career-view Mirror team without whom we wouldn't be able to share our guests life and career stories. And above all, thank you to you for listening.

Osman Abdelmoneim: 51:02

No matter how hard you try, no matter how hard working you are, you're never going to be able to do it on your own. It's just not possible.

Paul Harris: 51:09

You know, at the end of the day, you're steering your own destiny. So if it's not happening for you, and you're seeing what you want out there, then go out there and connect.

Sherene Redelinghuys: 51:17

Don't rely on others. You you have to do it yourself. You have to take control.

Rupert Pontin: 51:23

If you've got an idea if you've got a thought about something that might be successful. If you've got a passion to do something yourself, you just haven't quite got there, do it.

Tom Stepanchak: 51:33

Take a risk. Take a chance stick your neck out what's the worst that can happen? You fall down okay, you pick yourself up and you try again.