Justin Ammerlaan: A boundless connector and driving force who dares to be vulnerable and gets things done.

In this episode we are celebrating the career to date of Justin Ammerlaan.

Justin has spent the majority of his career to date with the Dutch bank ING and with BMW's leasing company Alphabet. He has lived in the Netherlands, America, Italy and Germany. All of which makes him a knowledgeable commercial leader in the international automotive and mobility sector.

He has a focus on achieving growth, innovation and customer satisfaction in complex and competitive environments. And he is fascinated by everything related to sustainable mobility and energy. He is often described by others as 'a driving force', someone who gets things done.

In our conversation we talk about how once he'd decided on business as an interesting route to take he became involved in digitisation and direct sales from the beginning of his career.

He shares his experience with ING and then living through the acquisition by BMW's leasing company, Alphabet, and his onward trajectory within the new business. I learned the delightful story of how he met the woman who'd become his wife in Italy and why and how they felt the need to keep their relationship secret. Justin very generously lets us in on the challenges he faced that caused him to re-evaluate his path and the approach he has taken to preparing for the next phase of his life and career.

I absolutely loved listening to Justin's story. I'm very proud to share it and I look forward to hearing what resonates with you.

Connect with Justin on LinkedIn: Justin Ammerlaan

Thank you to our sponsors:

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Email: hello@askeconsulting.co.uk

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Episode recorded on 25 January 2024.

Transcript

Justin Ammerlaan: 0:00

And he gave me a call. And the first question, he asked me, Are you single? I said, as it happened to be yes, because she just left me. Which is true. So we had a laugh. And then I asked him, so why are you asking me this question? He said, then we should meet. I'd like to do you proposition. I said, Okay. Now I'm curious.

Aquilae: 0:27

Welcome to CAREER-VIEW MIRROR, the automotive podcast that goes behind the scenes with key players in the industry looking back over their careers to share insights to help you with your own journey. Here's your host, Andy Follows

Andy Follows: 0:41

Hello, listeners, Andy here. Thank you for tuning in. We appreciate that you do. We're also very grateful for our guests who generously join me to create these episodes, so that we can celebrate their careers, listen to their stories and learn from their experiences. In this episode, we're celebrating the career to date of Justin Ammerlaan. Justin spent the majority of his career to date with a Dutch bank ING, and with BMW's leasing company Alphabet. He's lived in the Netherlands, America, Italy, and Germany, all of which makes him a knowledgeable commercial leader in the international automotive and mobility sector. He has a focus on achieving growth, innovation and customer satisfaction in complex and competitive environments. And he's fascinated by everything related to sustainable mobility and energy. He's often described by others as a driving force someone who gets things done. In our conversation, we talk about how once he decided on business as an interesting route to take, he became involved in digitization and direct sales from the beginning of his career. He shares his experience with ING and then living through the acquisition by BMW's leasing company Alphabet and his onward trajectory within the new business, I learned the delightful story of how he met the woman who'd become his wife in Italy, and why and how they felt the need to keep their relationship secret. Justin very generously lets us in on the challenges he faced that caused him to reevaluate his path and the approach he's taken to preparing for the next phase of his life and career. I absolutely loved listening to Justin's story. I'm very proud to share it and I look forward to hearing what resonates with you. If you're listening for the first time. Hello, I'm Andy Follows. I'm a trusted adviser to senior leaders in the automotive industry. I work alongside them and their teams to enable Fulfilling Performance. Contact me if you'd like to know more. Hello, Justin, and welcome. And where are you coming to us from today?

Justin Ammerlaan: 3:01

Hello, good morning. I'm coming from the Netherlands. The Hague.

Andy Follows: 3:05

Thank you very much for joining me. I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Where did your journey start just in where were you born?

Justin Ammerlaan: 3:12

I was born in Maastricht in the south of the Netherlands in 1975.

Andy Follows: 3:18

Right, tell me a little bit about your family because I know you had quite an international childhood, too.

Justin Ammerlaan: 3:23

My brother and sister they are Canadian, actually, they were born there. And my father and mother, they're Dutch. But my dad at a very young age decided to migrate to Canada. He was here at the boarding school. And he came back and in those days, it was still normal for the parents to say, Okay, we found you drop and this is what you're going to do. And he didn't like that too much. He was a bit of a free spirit as to say, I guess I have that coming from him. But he said okay, I'm going to migrate to Canada because two assistants were there already and he moved. And whilst being there starting to build up his life, he realised after a couple of years that he actually was missing the Dutch ladies. So and as it turned out to be that my grandfather's knew each other well, and one knew from the other that daughter was still in family helping out in the bakery. And actually still single one led to another and my father came back, got to know her and married her and they moved back to Canada. And that's when my brother and sister are born. Subsequently later, I was born in the mountains because my father and mother decided to come back to the home country in 75.

Andy Follows: 4:36

To know what caused them to come back.

Justin Ammerlaan: 4:38

Well, yeah, my father's business at the time was done. So the company closed down and they had a decision to make Either stay in Canada, they were at the time leaving Vancouver Island, or come back home or go somewhere else and my mom clearly missed already for quite some time the family so they said Political back to the announcement, my father found a job in Maastricht. So it was a bit further away from where the family lived at the time because they live more around where we live now here in The Hague and surroundings. But nevertheless, they took that shot and they came here.

Andy Follows: 5:14

Okay, and what sort of work was your father doing when he came back.

Justin Ammerlaan: 5:18

So my dad has always been in sales, internationally based here in the melons within the paint industry. So big companies like ici seconds, etc, that are well known for producing paints, he worked his way up starting painting houses in Canada, finding a job at a local paint company, eventually head of laboratory, which definitely helps out a lot when eventually you need to sell the product that you also know how the product is being made, and what the ingredients are. So he really taught himself a lot in that respect, but he also got the opportunity. And I think that's important to say as well, the surroundings were supporting him. And, and that helped. And then when he came to the Netherlands, he, he led that technical part behind them and he focused more on the sales part. And his job eventually became more international, from from outside, so not only Dutch market, but more global markets. So he was travelling a lot

Andy Follows: 6:19

Working for a corporate? Yeah. Okay, so you saw him being commercial, you saw him being international.

Justin Ammerlaan: 6:25

True.

Andy Follows: 6:26

Okay. And what about mum?

Justin Ammerlaan: 6:28

Typical housewife. A job in itself, as she took care of the children, she took care of the household, she needed also a bit of time to get used to the new surroundings back in the Netherlands, I think for both of them. And I can relate to that, by the way out of one experience, but perhaps later on, we touched on this, but after so many years abroad, coming back to your home country, you feel a bit like a stranger in your home country. It's a bit weird. And I think that's what they had to get used to as well. upside for my dad was, of course, that he was travelling quite a bit. So he was out. Downside for my mom is that she was a bit on her own, taking care of the kids and trying to set up a new social life with at least two of the kids already. Eight, 910 years old. And and I was just born. So you know, setting up a new social life. When you have young kids, it's, it's easier than when the kids are in the middle.

Andy Follows: 7:22

Yeah, they help you a lot. So let's talk about school. If we can just then what are your memories? What were the teachers have said about you as a student?

Justin Ammerlaan: 7:33

Well, actually, I think I'm the typical student who had to work hard to get far. So it's not that I was born with certain gifts, that made life very easy for me. So I've always had to do my utmost best to make big steps forward. So resilience and never give up are definitely characteristics in me that still I use today. So basically, teachers there at the time, they said, You can do the same thing as your brother and sister done. They encouraged me a lot. You know, at the high school here, I had some difficulties in really getting in on the level that I thought I wanted to get in. But eventually, once I was in, and things started running, they ran pretty well. I moved eventually, when I was 16, to another city in the mountains more in the centre of the country. As my dad's he found a new job. So we moved as a family by the time or at the time, my brother and sister were already out of the house, because he announced is quite normal finishing high school to go studying and then you live in a student house. So you're out of the family house, you only come back in the weekends. And basically, I finished my high school there, to the point that I finished the high school that allowed me to apply for university. And that's what I've actually done. I think it was 20 or 21 years old. When I eventually started studying International Business Studies at the University of Maastricht. So, typically enough, I went back

Andy Follows: 9:05

I think that's interesting, you know, sometimes having to work hard at school is perhaps more useful then when you sail through school, and you don't encounter any obstacles, you don't encounter any real challenge until much later. You don't get the same opportunity to learn to work hard and the resilience that you mentioned. What about other activities did you get involved in in sport or other activities at school?

Justin Ammerlaan: 9:33

Yeah, so in Maastricht, I was playing football when I was young. So in my teenage time in Maastricht, I play football, and some tennis and of course in the Netherlands, it's it's quite normal to learn how to swim. So a lot of swimming as well. So those were the sports that are engaged in those days later on. I played field hockey, which is a big sport here in the country. And in my university years I was growing as well.

Andy Follows: 10:02

Okay, so you did international business at university? How early in your school career? Did you sort of think you're going to get into business?

Justin Ammerlaan: 10:13

That's a good question. It's a question that reminds me how I'm looking at my children growing up now. And trying to understand if, if and how they're already thinking about that. But it was really last minute, to be honest, I always wanted to become a fighter pilot for the Air Force. And later, the Marines helicopter pilot. But unfortunately, that didn't work out. And instead of me pursuing aviation in the public sector, which perhaps I hindsight, I should have done, I moved away from that idea. So I actually I moved away from the passion that I had. And I started thinking, Okay, well, what could be a good life, what could potentially create a good life for me, and looking at my father in business and how he had worked his way up looking at my sister, my brother, my brother in law, they all study universities, masters, etc. And I decided, Okay, let's go for that. Interestingly enough, later in life, you realise, or at least when you take a moment in time to look back in time and to think about those years, you realise that a lot of things just happen like that without really clearly having a thought process supporting it. And then probably when I said that topic about my children, that's probably what I would like for them to become more conscious about in the younger at a younger age, because that eventually sets the fundament a very big part of your fundament for the rest of your life. So yeah,

Andy Follows: 11:48

how were you as a student at University, did you apply yourself you'd had to apply yourself at school. So were you a good university student,

Justin Ammerlaan: 11:55

I think, I think eventually, it was typical university years, four years to near, I enjoyed five years. But I have friends who enjoyed eight, nine years. So it's the work hard party hard motto, then I really applied about my friends, perhaps even more. But I was conscious also about the financial situation at home, the university had given me the opportunity to go abroad as well for some time via the Erasmus exchange setup. So I've studied for some time in the US as well, that has a financial impact, of course, family wise, from a very young age on, I've learned how to earn my own money, I think when I was 12, already, I've been washing cars in the street. And I've been doing a lot of chores ever since eventually, you know, working in bars and restaurants as well. Even even working for a company like DHL, etc, to bring packages around and during the money that I needed to make living, but also to support my family. Because I didn't want to rely completely on the finances of the household. My father already had support and my sister and my brother, with with master's abroad as well. So I decided to go for it and do my utmost best. And eventually, that resulted in five years, which a big part of it in Maastricht, but also a part of it at Rutgers University in New York in the US. And when I came back, I took one year to actually do some extracurricular activities. So besides the warming I've done in that last year, I've been part of the board of the Marketing Association related to the university in Maastricht, which I enjoyed a lot. And I've, of course, when my thesis, so So that was the fifth year, and that position at the Marketing Association, which was a position of PR communication, but also selling packages to companies and supportive of subsidies coming from companies, for the activities we undertook with the other students that were actively participating in the Marketing Association that I really enjoyed. And through that, I got in touch with the corporate world. And through that, eventually, I also found my first job at ING group.

Andy Follows: 14:15

Oh, I love the story. I love this idea. You were getting involved, sort of commercially, rarely in the in the workings of the university. And that brought you into contact with corporates. And already you're away from that sending applications, you know, blind into organism. You've got a network building up and

Justin Ammerlaan: 14:36

exactly I use that network that I build up. And I remember the meeting for a traineeship at diesem huge chemical company Procter and Gamble and ING, and ING, eventually, they moved quickest on the one hand, on the other hand, I felt quite comfortable in the conversations I've had as well and the outlook and eventually in 20s wasn't one in August, I started working at ING. Not before. However, I worked at the university as a lecturer for six more months. So I've done that as well. I was done at university in March of that year, and I needed to overcome a gap until August, September. So I worked at the university, I had a good network there as well. My thesis went pretty well, I had a very good mark. So they asked me to actually start life career at the University, which was a compliment, but I decided to use it as an interim solution.

Andy Follows: 15:35

Yeah, no, that's fabulous. A few things I just want to touch on there. One is, what was your thesis about?

Justin Ammerlaan: 15:42

Disintermediation in the pharmaceutical industry. Those days, you saw the the online selling of pharmaceutical products really surging. So over the counter, etc, what you normally need to apply either for a recipe at the doctor, you need to go to the pharmacy. But you also have products that you can just get at the pharmacy and instead of going to pharmacy, you can actually get them online. So that whole disintermediation in that supply chain I've been looking at.

Andy Follows: 16:13

Thank you. And the other thought that popped into my head or quotes that popped into my head, when you were talking about what happened there was you can't build a reputation on what you're going to do, or what you're going to do, if you like, so what happened there was you'd already built a reputation through your thesis and through your time, and you've got an opportunity on the back of that, which was great. And also your appetite to not have any gaps. So you mentioned earlier that from an early age, you'd been washing cars and doing whatever it took to earn money. So it makes sense that you weren't going to sit around and wait for the start date with ing. And the other thing that came to mind was you'd said earlier how interesting it is the impact that certain points can make in our journey. You know, had Procter and Gamble been quicker than ing your courage. And he could have been completely different. I mean, still corporate, but you know, completely different, field,

Justin Ammerlaan: 17:08

Completely different. That's true, probably also more into retail, because this that's relative, luckily, I think about PNG. And ing, I started the management traineeship within retail for the first five years, I had three or four different roles I saw all over the company, starting with ING Direct at the time, that was called Post Bank in the Netherlands still. But ING Direct was a concept that was spread around around the world. And I enjoyed working there a lot.

Andy Follows: 17:34

So you were on the shop floor as it were in ING.

Justin Ammerlaan: 17:39

No, I worked, I worked at HQ, we were digitalizing. That's a Post Bank was very far ahead when it came to digitalizing product offering to the retail market. So yes, postman still had outlets, as the banks still have outlets outlets today, although they are much less compared to 2030 years ago, because a lot of banking, if not all the banking is done digitally these days. But suppose bank in the mountains at least was really ahead, ing had just acquired the Post Bank. And from that idea of direct banking, which both bank represented ing, decided to roll out what they call eventually ING Direct into different markets worldwide. And that really is the direct digital banking concept that made ing quite large and big worldwide. And they were compared to other big banks in the world, they were probably far ahead. Actually, they were far ahead in those days when it came to direct banking. But I worked for the Dutch direct banking company, where it all started. And in those days, the Post Bank was integrated in ING as well. And then, you know, ing has the orange line, the Post Bank in those days had the blue lines. So that was all converted into we had a lot of marketing campaigns going on. But I was not as much busy with the marketing side of it, I was more busy with the channel development side of it. And eventually, one of the things that I've been working on is how to make online or digital banking, how to make it a safe practice. So in such a way that, you know, hackers cannot disturb whatever you're doing. And they remember in the first era of digital banking, where you had the computer, you needed the phone, you needed the functionality with SMS is to get you codes and use the codes to actually go into your banking the safe environment. So the SMS tonne coding activities that we developed in those days, we even had them patented. So I really enjoyed it was pioneering from the start, but again, retail local market. And at a certain point in time, you know, it's still limited. I need to spread my weights. So eventually it became more international and became more business to business. It wasn't the best mass that lets mass marketing that say but we'll come to that in a minute.

Andy Follows: 19:59

Yeah, Yeah, so what I'm thinking what I'm picking up, Justin is that from the very early days of your career, even from your thesis, you were engaged in topics like disintermediation and direct sales, digital sales, direct to consumers and things that are highly topical. Now, you've got on that track whilst you were still at university. And you've been on it as it develops now, which is really helpful in terms of building up a really large amount of experience in a field. So that was your first five years in that space? And then what happened? And how did it happen?

Justin Ammerlaan: 20:41

So my last job, within those five years, I was working at ING Bank as a senior product manager. And I was completely out of touch with the end customer, really working on product development and bringing certain products, this case loyalty programmes into the market for the retail for the masses, listen, of course, you are still in touch with customers. But it's more for testing, it's different.

Andy Follows: 21:08

I was thinking we might be forgiven for thinking that a product manager developing new products would be highly connected to customers. But of course, the reality is,

Justin Ammerlaan: 21:20

those days, your environments, where you where you hit your qualitative and quantitative assessments with your customers, but you never really had a one on one relationship with people on some, you know, things that that from both sides, we'd have very high interest. So I enjoyed what I did at the time, but it also became a bit arresting. And as it happened, I got a call from a colleague of mine who used to work in retail where I was still, but moved to ing Wholesale Banking, probably six months before. And he had been given the task to set up for ING Carnegie's the international sales and marketing department. And he gave me a call. And the first question, he asked me, Are you single? I said, as it happened to be yes, because she just left me, which is true. So we had a laugh. And then I asked him, so why are you asking me this question? He said, then we should meet. I'd like to do you proposition. I said, Okay. You know, I'm curious. And so I investigated a little bit where he was at and how he got where he was, before I met him. And then we sat down one day soon after, and he said, Listen, I'm setting up this department here we have ing carnies and many different markets in Europe. But we are setting up the international business now sales and marketing and I need a international sales manager for the non Benelux region. So the rest of Europe, that's why I asked you Are you single, because you will be out of the country a lot.

Andy Follows: 22:54

If you're not now, you will be soon.

Justin Ammerlaan: 22:56

Exactly. And also, there was the element of pioneer. Also, there was the element of setting something up, which was not done before. And I liked that. But what I what I missed in my previous job, I really was looking forward to this one was, you're out of the market, you out of your country out of your comfort zone, you're going to exercise and practice you're at different languages, your your cultural sets, you know, the the extra sensors that you have, that you've always believed you've had, and you can apply them now. And I was actually looking forward to that. Also, I was very much looking forward to get to know the business in the different markets and to see how the same business is done differently in different markets. For me, those years were great.

Andy Follows: 23:39

How long were you doing that for?

Justin Ammerlaan: 23:41

Well, that was 2006 until 2009. At the time, I had a new boss, and he asked me, Why don't you consider going to Italy for some time and do the job from there. But ideally, for you to get a better grasp of what's going on within a local business, how it is being run, because you've seen a lot of a lot. I always said you know, I've been flying my little helicopter through Europe, I land I get a lot of Intel, I go up again, and I overlook what's going on in different markets and to see if I can, you know, maybe connect some dots here and there.

Andy Follows: 24:17

So very much a headquarter a headquarter role that you had

Justin Ammerlaan: 24:21

really going into depth you miss it when you do that role. And that was a piece of a puzzle that I appreciated that he came up with. And eventually we decided for me to do that. So I went to Italy for eight months I think. And then I eventually came back and not soon after with new management at HQ. The company was sold.

Andy Follows: 24:40

Okay, what were you doing in Italy? So what was your role in Italy for those eight months?

Justin Ammerlaan: 24:45

My official role was programme manager. So there were three or four projects that we had identified in support of the sales operations. So again, was here supply chain acting from within the sales department, but going across the whole organism Question in support of improvement of customer experience with our company in the Italian market. That was one and two, we had a complete whole over of senior management there. And the sales organisation was based in Milan small department 15 people. The rest of the organisation HQ was in Rome. They just fired the CEO they fired the CCO the interim CEO was the CFO of ing lease paced and brash, and a Dutch guy, you wanted a Dutch familiar face in the Milan office. So that was a bit my second role to help out there to, let's say, build the bridges also with regards to what's going on in the office in mind while he was there, and most of the time he was in Rome to get a new CEO in place, etc. So unofficially that was was part of the task.

Andy Follows: 25:49

So a really good opportunity to immerse get a bit deeper in the organisation with some genuine responsibilities there. Let me take a moment to tell you about our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by ASKE Consulting who are experts in Executive Search, Resourcing Solutions and Talent Management across all sectors of the automotive industry in the UK and Europe. I’ve known them for almost 20 years, and I can think of no more fitting sponsor for CAREER-VIEW MIRROR. They're the business we go to at Aquilae when we're looking for talent for our clients and for projects that we're working on. ASKE was founded by Andrew McMillan whose own automotive career includes board level positions with car brands and leasing companies. All ASKE consultants have extensive client-side experience which means they bring valuable insight and perspective for both their employer and candidate customers. My earliest experience of working with Andrew was in 2004 when he helped me hire Regional Managers for my leasing sales team at Alphabet. More recently, when Aquilae was helping a US client to establish a car subscription business, ASKE Consulting was alongside us helping us to develop our people strategy and identify and bring on board suitable talent. Clients we've referred to ASKE have had an equally positive experience. Andrew and the team at ASKE are genuinely interested in the long-term outcomes for you and the people they place with you. They even offer the reassurance of a 2-year performance guarantee which means they have‘skin in the game’ when working with you. If you're keen to secure the most talented and high potential people to accelerate your business and gain competitive advantage, do get in touch with them and let them know I sent you. You can email Andrew and the team at hello@askeconsulting.co.uk or check out their website for more details and more client feedback at www.askeconsulting.co.uk . ASKE is spelt A S K E You’ll find these contact details in the shownotes for this episode. Ok, let’s get back to our episode. I might be making a leap too far. But I am aware you have an Italian wife. Is there any connection between this period in Italy and you've having an Italian wife?

Justin Ammerlaan: 28:06

Yes. How can you guess? Funny enough? In those days, I was like no, no, no, I don't believe in relationships that are established the work floor that can never be good. One party or if not both will eventually lose. It's not going to fly. And, of course, the opposite happened. So as much as you want to be rational in your life, you cannot push away your emotional, your emotional you. And I think that's also the beauty of life. And it just happened that it happened. So I met my wife Floriana. She was heading up marketing in the Milan office. And eventually, we came out after eight months as a couple, which we kept silent for two years, I was back in Amsterdam travelled up and down every weekend, she either flew to Amsterdam, or I flew to Milan. And nobody ever knew. And we just kept it a secret because we both had the same idea of you know, probably it's better if nobody knows, you never know, you know, maybe company policies against this idea. And then, you know, and I remember a funny moment that I've had with the CEO of ing carnies group at the time, because, you know, we decided after a couple of years to get married, and I thought, okay, now I need to at least come clean and explain that I was getting married to Floriana. And I asked for a meeting and he said it's okay. So please come in. And I remember we sat down, and I had this heavy heart, you know, like, oh, not completely, knowingly, what his response could or might be. So I explained, I'm getting married, and he looked at me said, That's great news. Congratulations. And I said, Yeah, you don't know. You don't want to know who with whom. He started looking at me he's like, Well, you know, I don't really care about for you, so I'm getting married with a colleague. And then he looked at me and he said, So who is it? And I said, Well, it's Floriana. So yeah, she's heading up marketing. And then oh, you sly fox.

Unknown: 30:12

And then he said, that's from your time in Italy. Yes. That's the result, you know? And he said, Well, it's great news. So I'm really happy for you. And I looked at him, I said, Okay, you could have taken the different. I said, Yeah, but I'm not. I'm really, you know, sincerely happy for you. And then he told me, he said, Why don't you turn around and look at that picture? And I looked at that picture behind me, and that was, I guess it was his grandchild. And he said, you know, who that is? And I said, I guess that's your grandchild. And then he said, that's true. I said, Okay, congratulations, your grandfather. He said, Yeah, but you know, where that little boys coming from? I said, Well, we can go into details and then he said no, that's not the point

Andy Follows: 31:03

He's not about to teach you about the birds and the bees.

Justin Ammerlaan: 31:05

He said, that's the result of my son, who I actually hired in the company that we're all working for, and who, you know, who got involved with another colleague, and that's the result. So if anybody within this organisation is coming up to you, telling you otherwise, that it's no good. You just give me a call. He didn't care. I was like, okay, good. So that's done. And I was walking around there for two years with the understated standing of this is not going to fly. You know, people find out I'm completely screwed. But yeah,

Andy Follows: 31:42

Two years is a long time, there would have been a lot of weekend, a lot of meetings, a lot of conversate a lot of opportunities to drop the ball.

Justin Ammerlaan: 31:49

True

Andy Follows: 31:50

So incredible,

Justin Ammerlaan: 31:51

Good fun

Andy Follows: 31:52

incredible resilience again

Justin Ammerlaan: 31:55

yes, that was exciting in those days. It was fun.

Andy Follows: 31:58

And then you mentioned the business got sold

Justin Ammerlaan: 32:00

Exactly in 2011.

Andy Follows: 32:03

So this is the whole ING Car Lease business.

Justin Ammerlaan: 32:07

Yes the group decided early on, I think already in 2010. ING Car Lease not to be core business anymore within Wholesale Banking. We also felt it in the sense that we were, which was not too bad. Actually, we were left quite alone by HQ. At the time, the CEO I just refer to he was appointed as CEO of the group, I think it was started 10. And for sure, his task was to, to sell the company, for the right price for the right conditions, also for the employees. And in 2011, eventually were informed on during a town hall, that indeed, the company was sold to BMW Group. And I remember my boss, my CTO, he invited me into his office, I had to sign a piece of paper and NDA. That was, I think, six months or a month before, where I was informed about what was going to happen, which also helped me privately, because we're at the time, we were thinking my wife loriana, myself, you know, where are we going to live? Is she coming to Amsterdam? Or should I just quit Amsterdam, pick up my stuff and move to Italy and find the job there. So that helped a bit. And I at the time also said okay, let's just wait and see what's going to happen. But yeah, so we were we were left alone for quite some time at from ing group HQ, in the sense that normally HQ has or potentially can have this functional role, either consciously or unconsciously to be very, on your desk when you're in a market. And we sent ing guys HQ, we were just left alone. And we could do the things that we had to do, which was, of course, to the best possible thing we could do for our stakeholders, externally customers, employees, but also the shareholder, which we've done, and eventually I believe the company was sold for quite a reasonable price under the right conditions. One of the conditions was for employees at HQ also to consider if they wanted to move along with the seal, or a knot happened to be eventually BMW Group buying the company integrating it with its own fleet management organisation at the time, alphabet, still ultimate today. And I decided to take the package and call my to be wife and said, We're going to meet halfway. I'll see you in Munich.

Andy Follows: 34:31

Okay. It's really interesting to hear the perspective from the ing side of this, because I've had as my guest, Erich Ebner von Eschenbach who was on the BMW side acquiring ING Car Lease.

Justin Ammerlaan: 34:43

I know Triple E

Andy Follows: 34:44

Yeah. So we've heard his perspective. How was it as an ING employee?

Justin Ammerlaan: 34:52

Well, it didn't it didn't come to for me at least but I had my network within the organisation so it didn't come too much as a shock. To me, at the same time, I thought it could potentially be a good opportunity for the organisation to further spread its wings and to grow combining it with an organisation like alphabet, which from the outset, were two parties that would complement each other pretty well. I know who the other bidder in the market was. And as a result of that acquisition, I probably would have lost my job as would have had many other people within the organisation. I think here we had the opportunity to combine best of both worlds to keep the people the knowledge within the organisation and for the ones that wanted to transfer from HQ, Amsterdam to Munich to come along. And to put that knowledge in play. Of course, you have different cultures that are coming together. And it's on HQ levels, not only Dutch and German, but they're also different other cultures coming together. And it's a bit of a mix that had to be managed in a good way. I think the decision for the two CEO setup was a good one to start off with. Also, because the two CEOs eventually showed that also they could complement each other. And they showed the right example to the rest of the organisation. And that helped tremendously in this setup.

Andy Follows: 36:17

So that was Ed Frederick's and Norbert Vanden ideas. They were the role models for the two organisations coming together. And I'm understanding that the reason had the other acquirer taken the business they would have had more overlap in terms of markets, and that's why more people would have lost their jobs. And whereas it really did seem to be a very synergistic opportunity ING Car Lease and Alphabet because the footprints were mostly in different markets. So it came

Unknown: 36:47

I think you're absolutely right spot on, I together well, think the other party probably would have resulted in quite a lot of people with with, let's say, the orange heart to leave the organisation, and therefore also some knowledge and cultural level walking out. At the same time, I can also imagine that perhaps that's a little bit also the way some of the alphabet people felt, in Germany and HQ, when quite a lot of AI engineers came to HQ to form a joint team. I wouldn't say invasion. But, you know, combine it with the Dutch outspokenness, which is a cultural aspect, that really is available in the Dutch culture, let's say, and then combine it with perhaps a bit more the German culture, which is maybe a little bit more introvert in a positive way, then I can imagine that perhaps for some of the German colleagues, it might have felt a bit like an invasion every now and then.

Andy Follows: 37:54

Yeah. No, I'm glad you brought that up, because I wanted to ask you about your experience of moving from Amsterdam to Munich and the cultural differences there and the sort of company cultural differences as well, but also the differences between being in a bank owned leasing company versus an OEM or an automotive manufacturer owned leasing company,

Justin Ammerlaan: 38:20

well, for sure cultures are different, if I look at it from a micro environment, so I was at the time working at the international sales and marketing department so international commercially, and we were actually merging both teams into one that did not always go without a fight. And it was not as much the fight between the employees as it was a little bit more on management level. People definitely also wanted to put the best of themselves forward and actually show the new environment how it could be done or how eventually also should be done. You know, when you are having a very outspoken culture and a culture that perhaps is less outspoken, maybe more following as well then you know, you can easily get a discrepancy or an imbalance that's the right word in a team setup the Share of Voice exactly share voice exactly being imbalanced within a team and at the end of the day, I think you know, in the beginning it was there for for everyone involved. It was definitely a bit of a bumpy ride. I think when people made up their minds, is this the environment and is this the team and is this the culture and this is the spirit where I feel comfortable at or not, I think eventually people made that decision for themselves and what happened after a year a year and a half Max is dead. The team especially team I was working in reset itself. We got less German less Dutch more outside German out had Dutch blood into the team. So you balance it out also with cultures coming from other businesses in the markets within either BMW Group as large, or alphabet specific. Personally, I really enjoyed and appreciated that development of the team. I think it resolved eventually. For instance, in my last couple of years in Munich, when I'd taken over the leading role for the International account management team, I had in my team, eight colleagues, and I think seven of them had a different background, they were from a different country with a different language and a different look at things. And I really enjoyed that very much. But that's something that that had to set. And it took a year, year and a half, I think, the overarching goal that we had, as a group was during this merger, we don't look inside, but we look outside in the sense that we are not in a position to lose any customer full stop. And I think that was the thing, it was smart, of our CEOs and our board to come up with this, because that was the hook, that everybody would hang their coat on and say, Okay, we might have our internal squabbles or whatsoever, I don't know what the correct English word is, but you know, differences. But there's one thing that we are good at, and we can complement and support each other. And that is to make sure that the business keeps going and that the value creation that is foreseen also by BMW Group, because, again, they paid handsomely for the company, that we make that happen. So you know, besides your daily, internal petty fights, we also need to act professionally. And we're here with a mission. And I think that eventually, for me, personally, that landed pretty well, that in combination with what I just mentioned, that I can imagine. So I can imagine how the other feels. And that's, that's a characteristic that is quite strong in me that I always tried to put myself in the shoes of one other person. I think that helped me a lot in doing the things I had to do with a smile on my face, and feeling that we were actually getting stronger together day by day.

Andy Follows: 42:18

No that's really good, really helpful, just and so I'm thinking you had the two CEOs modelling their collaboration, you had a very clear focus on retaining customers, and maximising the value of the acquisition, it is quite understandable that you would have had a period of teething problems if you like where the two groups of different personalities come together, and need to find a way to get on. And by having that external focus of retaining customers and focusing on the customer that kept everybody going in a good way until, as you say, eventually, you have this really great international team that sort of smoothed out some of the International international peaks, if you like of behaviour and characteristics brilliant, and a very successful merger. I think our acquisition very successful, I think, yeah, you they don't always go that way and always end up that, well.

Justin Ammerlaan: 43:16

It started out by not having to fire, let's say, X percent of your organisation, I think that's already a good sign. And it turned out if you if you look at one key figure important to the group, BMW, of course, is the share of BMW mini products sold through Alphera As a sales channel. And that grew quite a bit as well, especially in the first three years, which I always refer to as the honeymoon. Because after the honeymoon, things started to change. But we can come back to that later. But I think in the first three years, we did not have too much look in by HQ. So being a Aggie, what we were doing, I think that's also a benefit to how Triple E played his role, and also the setup of the two seals. So that combination worked out pretty well, we were left alone quite a bit to do the thing we had to do, we were asked to do as a company, and we've grown substantially in those days. Also with the international business, I remember that we grew quite substantially. And as a result of that, coming back to your second question, being part not only a banking but of an OEM as a shareholder. What came with that eventually, was that what I missed within ing, I couldn't find a BMW, which was product knowledge on what was going on in the automotive at the end of the day. I mean, we're all in the financial services business, but the underlying acid in those days was still only the car these days. We're talking about bikes, you know, everything surrounding mobility, it's not only the car anymore, so But in those days it was and to team up. So from alpha to walk over to the other building and to knock on the door of corporate sales and say Hey, my name Justin, I'm actually doing a talent management, we got a customer has an AI interest in BMW mini products. I could use your support, shall we team up, then we can make it a worthwhile for both parties, actually for all three. So we got a win win win. And they looked at me and they were like, Hey, you're the first one who's actually thinking about doing this? I say, Yeah, well, not only doing this, but really making it happen. But I want you to think in the same way. What do you think, shall we do it? And as I said, I missed that at ING. And that combination of forces that worked out eventually pretty well, I remember we had international customers that were doing only BMW Mini. But I also remember that we had international customers that were doing Mercedes, and Audi. And eventually we're only doing BMW, I mean, and those were the, the ones that I really enjoyed. Not as much because it should be in the minute. But we had the best product in those days in the market. And from a TCO perspective, we had a lot to offer. For companies that was definitely interesting to listen to, at the end of the day, they didn't really matter if it was an Audi or BMW. Our customers were really looking at TCO. Now, it's total cost of mobility. So they were more inclined to understand okay, what what does it do when it comes to cost, as of course, it's important for them to make sure that their drivers continue to have the mobility level that they need. And then regardless, it's a Mercedes, Audi, or BMW, the differences there are very small, they're all very premium quality products. But we could come up with a good combined deal. And that helped a lot. And I think if you ask me, the extra benefit there from being part of an OEM like BMW, it's this one is creating value overall, within your organisation, not only for alphabet, or only for BMW, it's the combination on both that I really enjoyed.

Andy Follows: 46:52

Yeah. So you are realising what the whole acquisition, you know, the whole point of BMW having Alphabet and the whole point of growing its capability through the acquisition, you were realising that by working closely with your colleagues in the car company, and converting car fleets from one brand into the BMW and MINI brand,

Justin Ammerlaan: 47:12

Of course, respecting customers wishes to have multi brands, of course, but that's the beauty of alphabet, I think within the BMW Group. It's a multi brand proposition that it has a key strength meeting BMW MINI. In those days, it was very enjoyable to build those bridges. I really enjoy also there again, pioneering I really liked it.

Andy Follows: 47:35

Excellent. And then tell us what happened after that period. And what comes next.

Justin Ammerlaan: 47:41

So after the honeymoon,

Andy Follows: 47:44

Oh, yes. tell us about that.

Justin Ammerlaan: 47:47

So at a certain point, Ed retired, and then Norbert was appointed as the sole CEO of the organisation. And that lasted for some more years, after which some more changes occurred within the board. But within HQ, things continued as they were, I eventually stepped up from my international account management role to a position where I could head up the international account management team, I really enjoyed that. I think it was four to five years, I really enjoyed that. That time, being able to restructure the team somewhat, but also to hire new people. Because we definitely also had a turnover within the organisation. And we wanted some new fresh blood also from the markets, at least, that was my point of view from the markets coming in. To understand that people that understand first of all of using business, second of all that wanted to have an opportunity to work at HQ, so to enrich their base their knowledge of the organisation before going back into the market again. And I actually enjoyed a reflection of different cultures in relation to the different customers that we were serving, which were also based everywhere, nowhere in Europe. So I think it's good one, when you have a team that also speaks the languages and therefore can set up the relationships also on a personal level, with the end customer. And that's, you know, beauty of b2b That's still a one man or one woman that is sitting at the other side of the table. But times changed. It was not only anymore, the, the fleet manager locally or, in this case, the head of procurement of a company, globally. We started to see other people on behalf of the customers showing an interest in what we were doing to the point eventually that once we had a meeting with Siemens, that the director of sustainability walked in and said, Hey, can I join the meeting? So a lot of things were changing, finance being there, fleet management, being there, procurement, being sustainable, from a sustainable angle, you know, people that have a mission within an organisation, being there around the table. So you also needed as an account manager and I As an account management team, you needed to evolve, you needed to understand, okay, who do we talk to? About what? And why does that person shown interest and what's the importance of that person, perhaps eventually in decision making as well. So these are all aspects that I enjoyed with the team to grow into. And we tried, of course, to always stay a step ahead. But that's actually what happened in the last few years, up until the end of 2020, that I was working in Munich.

Andy Follows: 50:28

So increasing complexity on the customer side, requiring you and your team to adapt and improve your capabilities and grow when you found that stimulating

Justin Ammerlaan: 50:40

exactly

Andy Follows: 50:40

and enjoyable

Justin Ammerlaan: 50:41

continuously fine tuning with the markets. I mean, there's there's always been this battle on what can we agree centrally to actually promise centrally also to our customers, what actually are aspects that we cannot because you know, local, needs to be in charge of that. So we always had this thin line, this balancing act. So equally important that we had very short communication lines with our peers in the market, also in decision making level, which was one of my responsibilities, but also my boss's responsibility as well. But I was always taught from the start, when I started the Dine economies International in 2006, then whilst you you do work operationally, with your counterparts in the markets, always good to have a short line also, with decision making authority within the markets, and especially with international business, when suddenly decisions need to be made, in a very short period of time, you better make sure that both locally and on HQ level, you have a direct access to the door of the final decision maker, that is a relationship that is established on trust. That's a relationship that is established on credibility. And basically, that helps a lot when you need to make quick moves. So that was also an aspect that, especially with the size of the customers, seeing changes taking place, also terms with decision making needs that they had was also something that we needed at the time to evolving and I think we've done it quite successfully.

Andy Follows: 52:10

Is there more to say about that period, Justin? Or is it time to talk about how you ended your time there and what comes next?

Justin Ammerlaan: 52:19

Yeah, so those 10 years were great. In Munich, as I said, my wife, she came from Milan, I moved from Amsterdam, our children were born there. They are now 10, and seven, growing up rapidly speaking four languages. It's great. It has brought us a lot. And we had a very special time, it felt a bit like holidaying tenure, as long as you are a foreigner, even though after 10 years, you know, you can imagine to certain extent, you also become less of a former and more real inhabitants of Germany, still then Bavaria with his own language and its own culture. It felt like like all in a timely way, without any real worries, everything runs smoothly, and the household was good. My wife had found a job and we just enjoyed beautiful countryside. So as I like to resume it, there was not really a reason to close the door. And to leave until the first half of 2020, when I was asked to think about moving from me moving back to the Dutch market, and assumed the role of commercial director there. And succeeding, my predecessor was in the job for quite some time and decided to step out and do something entirely else. And I remember two people predominantly coming to me with that idea of being Macula soccer within HQ, and Crystal reinartz At the time, CEO of alphabet. And it felt good to me for them asking me to think about it. Support from my at the time I CCO and Munich as well, Marcus Dorsey. And after some talks at home, we said, Let's go for it. And as you probably realise now, in how I just tried to explain to you what happened and the words I used, I focused a lot on the WHO less on the actual what is all about? Not saying that I was not interested in the role, but a key decision maker for me in that whole setup was where eventually I would end up in which team who I would be reporting to, but also the other board members. I knew some of them by name already will also do support coming from Munich. So these were all aspects that actually were equally if not even more important to me in making that final decision to leave If all those beautiful things that we had experienced, and that holiday feeling for 10 years behind this and say, Okay, let's make this step in our journey. As a next step,

Andy Follows: 55:09

That's really helpful to hear the emphasis that you placed on who's talking to me about doing this, and who's the team that I'm going to be joining. Very interesting and that you've noticed how important that part was. And so you went back to the Netherlands took up that role as Chief Commercial Officer of of Alphabet in the Netherlands. Yeah. So what was it like moving from the headquarter role, then back into a market

Justin Ammerlaan: 55:33

Extraordinary times, because we were on the back end of Corona. So the Dutch offices, for instance, were still closed. And everybody was working from home. And I started January one. And I had to get to know my team, and the whole division, using digital coffee moments. And I've done that for five, six months before the offices opened again, it was awkward, you know, for someone who is quite sensitive to relationships, setting them up from the start investing in the other. That was not always easy, I have to admit. So that was a that was a bit of a challenge. Another challenge, which was more related to the situation, the organisation was in the Dutch market, particularly had a had a hard hit from Corona in terms of its fleet development. So we had a de fleeting situation, which I wouldn't say was uncontrollable, was borderline. And we really needed to turn that around, especially also in light of that was my first task, especially in light of my second task, which was to support in integrating to business lines being alphabet with financial services, in those days was in 2019. On HQ level, it was already decided enough that the times that I was still meaning was already on, let's say, board level HQ had dissolved and Marco moved up and became part of the BMW Financial Services Board. But we are baptised in islands and UK as a two pilot markets to start rolling that concept down as well in bringing both worlds together. So that was my second task. And you don't want to, that's always the way I sold to my HQ network, when I had to go back. While going back was easy, because it was around the corner, I will still in Munich the first six months to go there and say, Guys, if you want to stop the drop on this fleet, we need to let go of margin focus only we need to start getting more volume focusing, which probably, you know, will tell us that this year in terms of margins will be sooner than we expected. But it needs to be done. If you want me to be effective, co effective with all my other board colleagues and the both companies everybody like that is going to support them. In getting two business lines together, you don't want to have a sick brother with a healthy brother getting together, the value from the start is going to be not what you're looking for. And the investment that you're doing. There's quite a bit so we need to get this right. And then of course, the pledge would be that as of the second year with the needed investments in our product offering to the market as well, that have been stalled for six, seven years. So no investment in it digital nothing for six, seven years before my arrival. Of course that had to be changed in as of the second year. So yeah, it was it was a rocky ride. But a very loon full ride and eventually also an impactful, right.

Andy Follows: 58:31

Yeah, a very interesting, challenging time to set foot in that role. Yes. And then what happened, what came after that?

Justin Ammerlaan: 58:38

So my first year was, as I said, challenging eventually from a private perspective also changes materialised, because we moved eventually in August 1 year to the melons. And we decided to live in The Hague, as this is the area where we're at are quite some good international schools. So we would we really want it for our children, learning for languages etc, to be in that setting and continue

Andy Follows: 59:01

So you were feeling let me see if I've their journey. So we said okay, and Hagen is going to be in rice back next to the Hague, we had the financial services offices where I was supposed to be at least once per week. In any case, the ultimate office in Breda was like 50 minutes drive, I was there, three, four days a week, if not with customers. But the first year, as I said, for a six month remote and then eventually learning in the Dutch market and get to know the people better and finally starting to visit customers physically, which always has been a pain for me in the times of Corona that we couldn't do that. That was definitely a good and very enthusiastic first year, I would say. We were preparing as I said for the integration of both business lines. The second year, that would be as of January 22. That would be the new legal entity named BMW Financial Services, the Netherlands, with the different brands of pet and financial services, of course, as part of the household As to save up with that also came a new board. So, Crystal eventually left within the offered board, there was not everybody, one on one in the same position, let's say, reconfirmed within the new board, and the same applied for the colleagues in the financial services board. So we had a bit of a mix. And we created an extra pillar, being the pillar of the CMO, cio Chief Marketing innovation officer. And then, of course, eventually to CSR. So my CTO role changed, my scope and of influence changed as well, my scope of of responsibility, only focus on sales, predominantly, for me to be my colleague at the financial services side for b2c. And then everything that had to do with marketing, product development, innovation, etc. As a new company, we wanted to give that more strength, we eventually were able with, with our colleagues at German HQ, to convince them that the setup of the board should be expanded by an extra function being the CMO. So we hired we recruited somebody in that role. But that second year, a lot changed. Also, for me, as I said, before, referring to how my parents must have felt coming back to the Netherlands, I had that same experience, I remember even talking to Crystal about that. She said, heck, I'm Belgian. I speak your language. And even I have that problem. And she had a coach that I'd spoken to two or three times. But still, there was this, this somewhat unrest in this in me, on the one hand, being only focused on the Dutch market, something that I didn't really see. Well, I saw it that I didn't really live it through completely. In my first year, I had too much on my plate. My second year, it became a bit more predominant to the surface, I would say, also triggered due to the new setup within the board, the new board not being the board that I chosen originally, when I moved to the nouns. And it's not to be disrespectful to the colleagues within the board, it matches or doesn't match. And with some it matched mess. So that actually led one plus one is three, and being one too many, and for me to be too many in that case. And it resulted in me leaving the company last year, so 23. And of course, a lot happened in the meanwhile, which I'm sure you're going to ask me questions about and that's fine. Because I think it's a good thing to talk about. But in those days, it was not really my first choice to make. Let's put it like that. understood just then you'd come back from living overseas overseas. So there was a sense of you'd lost something that's sort of I know, there's different energy, a different experience, when you're not living in your home country, it's just more stimulating, you can't help it because there's so many things that are very different that keep you sparking all day. So you found yourself feeling a little bit more closed in, in the environment. And then there were these structural changes happening in the business, you had very carefully decided the team you wanted to join. As a result of structural changes, that team changed. So again, that wasn't that wasn't as good a fit for you. Nothing personal, no disrespect, but it just wasn't the same that you signed up for. And then was there a physical like, were you surplus to sort of requirements in terms of people they needed to make up that team? Is was that what you're saying as well with the one plus one equals three?

Justin Ammerlaan: 1:03:42

No. Yeah, maybe that's also not the right way of formulating it. But I think in terms of the contents of the job and what needed to happen, let's say my function was more focused in that second year on business to business only. This is where I've always, you know, built my experience on internationally. And looking at the portfolio at a time. I can imagine still today the same very, very predominant corporate portfolio within within Alphabet in the Netherlands. It was a challenging time, whilst I really understood and still understand how to deal with business to business. Actually, I think I'm pretty good at it, if you don't have all the means, that you should have at your disposal to make the success the minimum means to make it a success, then it becomes very, very hard. What I mean to say is in this case, in such a evolving market, like the Dutch market, I mean, when it comes to topics like mobility in general, I mean, this is one of the front runner markets in Europe, looking at the developments, which are taking place here. What are developments stimulated by government developments coming from the cost Apart from the market, etc, but also from other companies, and notably the traditional mobility lease goals, but also new ones arising and popping up. So if you realise that six, seven years in a row, almost no investments have been made in your processes in your digital proposition in your whole backbone in preparation of what's to come when the car is not the only topic that is on the table anymore when you speak to somebody on the other side, but that person says, Actually, I need, I need, for instance, a budget where I can support not only my company drivers, but I need that money that I also would like to present to all my other employees, can you support us with such a technological platform, that you have something like that, and how does it work also, in relation to the tax system, you go on, if you simply haven't invested time need to be ready for market changes like that. And you realise that you're actually already in the middle of that change, and you feel your 230 behind and you have a very predominant corporate portfolio where they all ask for the same solution, it becomes very, very difficult to really fight the fight that you're supposed to find. So that's second year, eventually, those investments came through. But then within the BMW organisation, it is such that once you got the money, you still need to get the capacity. Of course, you run parallel, and you get it which so close because they are for a European market, also based in radar next to the Office of offered so close, but at the same time, so bloody far away, you get these guys, you know, you tried to get these guys lined up the moment you got the money, get cracking. Now, so that still takes a year, year and a half before everything that is supposed to be built already three years ago, is finalised and by the end market as of course competition, and of course, we're ready to the next level, you know, digital 3.0, digital 4.0, and so on. So difficult to really be successful, and to keep the troops with a smiling face, and with a high energy level to do what they are asked to do. Because that was another thing when I arrived within the organisation at large, but also within sales. Looking at the satisfaction survey that had been done the year before my arrival, it was an all time low. So it's a lot of challenges. At the same time, we actually in my time that I was there, we we were able not because of me but because of me being part of the larger organisation that I've been putting the topic of employee and customer first more on the agenda, we've been able to do a good job and bring that back up. So I think they're the let's say what we've established the first year in terms of selling at least employee and customer on a level where we could jump from, we did a good job. But then we needed we really need it as sales demeans the customer wanted also our propositions. And this is where in the second year, we were not easy in bringing to the market, it took me more into a boardroom, the whole year long then outside with the customer. Because we were setting up a whole new governance, we were working on the new strategy. And looking back now I should have been more advice, as the Dutch would say, which is also a typical Dutch quality, I should have basically told my at the time was, you know, happy that we have to meet each other 16 times a week, but I'm going to skip 12 Because I prefer to sit with our customers, I have a job to do. So looking back now, definitely something I learned from from all of this, because I think this is one of the elements that led eventually also to my departure within the organisation.

Andy Follows: 1:08:48

Absolutely fascinating. Thank you for sharing your learnings from that the story, the experience, what happened and what you learned from it so openly. While you were describing the situation, I was running it through a model that is part of the Fulfilling Performance methodology that I coach. And we have four questions that we ask that help you identify the handbrakes that are going to stop people from being able to perform at a high level. And those questions are, how clear were you about what you were supposed to be doing? And how you were performing against those expectations. That's the first one. The second one, how well equipped were you in terms of knowledge, skills, experience, mindset and resources to perform at a high level. The third one is how was the behaviour or how is the behaviour of the people around you, supporting you to perform at a high level? And finally, how much does it mean to you? What you are doing? How much is your heart in it? And I was just asking myself those questions. You're smiling and nodding

Justin Ammerlaan: 1:09:58

Yeah, because I'm I'm reflecting on all four. I think starting with one that was already? No, I think one was pretty clear in terms of what we had to do to in terms of resources, as I said, not completely there. At three and four. And three, it didn't feel like it and four as a result of that started

Andy Follows: 1:10:22

to lose heart.

Justin Ammerlaan: 1:10:23

Exactly, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's like a downward spiral, eventually, that I felt I was getting into. Sometimes I look back, and I think, what if nothing would have changed? What if I did not have two, but only one task is turn the business around and prepare it for mobility 2.0. So not doing the restructuring, offering both business lines together? It was my first real senior job. And then everybody could say, yeah, it's your home country. But again, I felt like a foreigner. I was not used to this directness level anymore, everything you You asked for that you got no nine out of 10 times instead of Yes. Because everybody has a different opinion. And it's, it's more important for the boss to listen to everybody's opinion than for everybody to first, maybe also think about what your opinion of the boss could be. So that's different compared to what happens in Germany, for instance. So I was, I was not used to that anymore. And I really had to reinvent myself there as well, in that respect. But looking back, fact, that was my first real senior job, that I had a complicated task, being saving fleet, the same time preparing it for restructuring, I think, perhaps it was a bit too much. If I would have had the opportunity to maybe be a commercial director in another market for some years before my arrival in the Netherlands, I'm sure I would have benefited from the experiences that I build up there. And perhaps indeed, looking back, my first step should not have been in such a predominant market. But maybe as a commercial director in another market, where I'd would have been a bit more. Easygoing is not the right word, but let's say controllable. Nevertheless, looking back, I don't have regrets. And I don't have resources. I'm happy that I'm able, at this time of day to say that out loud and to express it here on our podcast, and to tell it to you. Because it's true. I don't have it. I've been in, let's say, times that I thought, what what has happened? And why has it happened? What has happened to the point that, okay, and I'll see it What could I have done differently, to the point that I now know what I could have done differently, or should have done differently, to the point that I also know, much better? Now know, which type of outset for me would work more optimally than the outset that I've been part of in the last few years. So when when you look for it now, and I'm doing that, and actually, I'm also in the market? Again, trying to understand, okay, what what could be my next step? What should it be that I take the learnings and apply them now, and I think are now a much richer person in that respect, than I was at the time when I had to decide or make the decision, or when I decided in 2020, to make that step back to the Netherlands. So, full circle, which is good.

Andy Follows: 1:13:32

so open and honest about that. It's wonderful to watch you I'm sorry, my listeners can't see. But it's wonderful to watch a guest who's exploring something. And I have the sense that this isn't something that you talk about so regularly that you you know, you're just giving us kind of sound bites or you know, PR comms version of events. This is really thought through and great to hear very authentic. So thank you for that. It's also a wonderful example of how we learn from experience, and what value we can take if we do reflect on these situations and ask ourselves what could we have done differently? That's really helpful because you have that you will behave differently next time a similar situation arises you won't be able to help yourself because you're battle hardened, if you like, or you're you have taken on board that experience and it will influence your decision making. And it also is a great example of why we in Fulfilling Performance. We have those four questions because what we're doing is recognising that an individual's performance is not just about their own capability, and their level of effort. It's not what they can do and how hard they try. There's all these other systemic aspects around it that are actually influencing that individual's ability to perform and their teams ability and the overall results. So a wonderful passage, wonderful story tough for you. tough for you to live through tough for you to share. super valuable learning. And thank you very much, Justin, I really appreciate

Justin Ammerlaan: 1:15:22

your'e welcome

Andy Follows: 1:15:23

you going there with us.

Justin Ammerlaan: 1:15:24

It is not something that you learn from reading a book. Let's put it like this.

Andy Follows: 1:15:31

As hard as we try. And I, you know, I say on every episode, we celebrate their careers, listen to their stories and learn from their experiences. And I know it's really hard to learn from other people's experiences It's an absolute bonus, if we can. Experiences shared so openly and honestly, or at least got a chance of landing with myself and my listeners and thinking it or maybe there is something I can take away from that. And just be mindful that maybe people are putting themselves under loads of pressure, because of results they're getting. And it's just a reminder that, hey, it's not just you, you've got all these other factors happening, which one of those is perhaps causing you the biggest handbrake to performance at the moment. So

Justin Ammerlaan: 1:16:18

Having said that, if I may,

Andy Follows: 1:16:21

yeah that was a long, long speech from me, you go

Justin Ammerlaan: 1:16:28

I'm pretty well known for continuously speaking as well. So I need to be careful with as good as I feel. Now, as bad as I felt this time a year ago, I've realised one thing. So all that resilience, and that never give up, which I learned at a young age, unconsciously put in practice last year around this time have eventually helped me in having a little voice in my mind, telling me, you will get out of this. And you will realise eventually, also what happened and why. But you cannot do it alone. You need to think about an environment, being an environment without people and or an environment with certain people that can support you in that, and you need to be open for that. And I'm happy that I have that little voice and that it worked the one where it had to work because I also know stories where these things happen to people, even in my closed environment, where eventually people did not get out of it. They felt down but they didn't feel good again, like I feel good now. And I think if there's something I really appreciate, is that the fundaments with which I was born and raised, and I taught myself or I was being taught by my surroundings, that that they were strong enough to help me out as a father and a husband at times that I felt lost. And I think that is that is really magnificent that I've that I've been able to apply that last year and still today, finding that right environment, speaking to the right people, as a result of that now, I think it's a good result. having this conversation with you. Remembering also our first point of contact last year, I think, nine months ago, maybe a little bit longer. And you said we should be in touch maybe once I said, Well, maybe maybe once I've gone through this process, I could be of value to others by being part of your podcast. So thank you very much for inviting me.

Andy Follows: 1:18:42

Thank you, Justin. And you did say I would probably ask you about the process because I believe you've been very intentional about what you've done over the last eight or nine months. Are you happy to? I think it'd be great to hear how you've approached this.

Justin Ammerlaan: 1:18:57

Yes, I've Well, I first I took some time not to think about anything. So I've been gardening, hence the expression gardening leave. As we live close to the to the sea here I've been out and about for quite some time. Eventually, funnily enough, the best friend of my sister. My sister pointed me to her saying you should talk to her because she's experienced something like this, perhaps in the magnitude, times 10 Several years ago, and she would be a good one for you to talk to. So that's when the ball started rolling. And thanks through her. I got eventually in touch with a coach that has his strength, more in coaching, executive coaching, but from a psychological point of view, so I needed him to get closure. Before getting closure. I needed him to understand what happened why And why I've been acting responding in that process over the last six months while it was still working, in terms of what happened and how I performed there, why, and I deliberately looked for somebody that could help me with that chapter. And I found him thanks through my sister's best friend, who I'm eternally grateful to. And then at the same time, I decided to look for executive coaching, but more in terms of what is it that I would really like to do as a next step? And how should look like? And that's, that's, I would say, less on the psychological mental part. That's more on the next step, and where would you like to go. And I found, Also, thanks to actually, interim HR director of the organisation at the time, she pointed me to this organisation to get in touch with was very kind of her. And I took charge there as well. So what I've been doing predominantly in terms of working on myself, I've been working on from those two angles over the last six to nine months, the same time, coming from abroad. Yes, two years, at least in the Netherlands, you should have a bit of a network, but I did not really have a network. So I started to reach out to people. Also, we got in touch like this. And that happened with many more people, people in the industry, that I thought it could be worthwhile for me to have a cup of coffee with to explain what happened on the one hand, the other and to explain what I was doing now, and where I would like to go to like a cup of coffee, and let's have another coffee, or maybe a lunch six months later, when you know, I don't look too much backwards more, but I'm able to look forward and explain to you what I'm looking for and why. So that's something I've been working on as well. Maybe I should have started with that. But it's become almost the normal, daily life, I spend a heck of a lot of time with my kids more with my wife than she probably would have wanted. But just to give you one anecdote, when my son was sitting next to me in the car, and I took him to a football training, put his hand on my hand, telling me that I'm so happy that you are home, and that you can take me to football. That for me was the moment where I thought, Wow, man, how far away from this planet have you been? Not him, me. And I deliberately good love effort in getting him to play football in a way that he enjoys it. He doesn't himself eventually. But I sense with him not speaking the Dutch language too well, and it's a Dutch team is a bit you know, he's a very kind young man, a very sensitive as well. He's not the big mouth, runs fastest and is the best in football. And he's a copy of his dad in that respect. So he needs to work hard and have resilience. And I sensed he could use a little push nudge in the right way. Not in terms of running faster, but more in terms of you can do it, you're much better than you think you are than the fact that I've been able to spend time and eventually coach the team be one of the trainers with the other dads. The same with my daughter with her gymnastics, being there after school to support him with the whole learning. I think I'm going to miss it in a way the intensity of that not going to miss it that I'm not going to do it anymore. On the contrary, one of the learnings is that the balance that was lost has to be there. And I will make sure it's there. In my next adventure.

Andy Follows: 1:23:48

Wow. That was very moving.

Unknown: 1:23:54

I see. you are having tears? I can tell you I've yeah, I've had a lot of those tears as well. But that is life. And and yeah, that's it.

Andy Follows: 1:24:05

Yeah. That's beautiful that you having that before it's too late.

Justin Ammerlaan: 1:24:09

Yes.

Andy Follows: 1:24:09

That is so valuable. I'm grateful for your sharing that as well. Justin how much are you able to talk about then what the future holds?

Justin Ammerlaan: 1:24:17

Well, I'm still very madly in love with the industry. And everything that has to do with sustainable mobility, not only from a financial services angle anymore, I love to read and talk about what's going on in automotive. If you look at Europe, with the original giants like Volkswagen, say there's BMW still on this group. The Asian Asians coming in predominantly the Chinese and developments there, but also the energy sector immobility as time passes by it's overlapping so much with what's going on in automotive and also financial services, leasing etc that my my view broadened bit, I would say. So when I mentioned the coffee's that, hopefully some of them will develop into lunches. And perhaps in the future, something different. But I do these with contexts that I've been able to set up in those different industries, and to see where my heart is ticking fastest. And based on that, with all the executive coaching insights that I've been able to generate about who I am, what I really like, what I find important, what drives me in the next job, and what actually really doesn't, and so that you have that more clear cut, and that will help me in finding a new job. And I'm talking to different companies now. And there are definitely there are some irons in the fire, that are really hot. So I would expect some white smoke in the next few weeks. To to, to emerge from the chimney. That's to see. So let's see.

Andy Follows: 1:25:57

I love that. Excellent. And I'm excited to find out where it is that you do show up next, Justin, is there anything I haven't asked you, that means I might have missed out on a gem.

Justin Ammerlaan: 1:26:11

Maybe in too many words, not in too many words, but the experience I've had over the last year, year and a half, that's definitely an experience, I will not proactively advise everybody else to enjoy. But if it happens, maybe it happens for a reason. And to find out what that reason is, and to think eventually, that it's not the end of the world, that it is only work. And life is so much bigger than only work. I've always said I work to live. And it's something I lost a bit in the last few years. And it's my beacon. It's a strong one, but I lost it in my last two years. And I've found that again. And I will definitely not let go of it anymore. And I'm happy that it happened. Or it occurred to me if you can say happy. And it happened to me in the age of 48. Still before my 50s at a time that I'm still resilient enough, flexible enough to consume it to look forward to my second half, which shouldn't be as long as my first half. Because you mentioned I want to move to we want to move to Sicily and start sending something nice out there for ourselves. But yeah, we go back to the Motherland with my wife. And I think if it has to happen, it's probably the right time. If you work in one company for 20 years, almost including the ing years, and every next step almost is as natural as it can get, you become less critical that you become less critical thinking in terms also if that next step is the right step. And being out now, and having had this journey, the bad part and the good part. I'm actually very grateful that I now have a much better understanding how the second half should look like. So this is what I would wish for everybody else that's listening to this podcast and perhaps is in a similar situation or will ever in life, enter in such a situation work wise, feel free to reach out I'm always happy to listen and to help or talk or simply only listen.

Andy Follows: 1:28:19

Wonderful. I'm not going to ruin that by waffling on. Now I'll just say there's a perfect ending. Thank you very much, Justin. We'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes this episode. So if people want to reach out to you, you've invited them to do that. Thank you so much for joining me and for joining me in the way that you have joined me thank you for showing up in the way that you've shown up today. It's been a really enjoyable and thought provoking conversation. So thank you.

Justin Ammerlaan: 1:28:49

Thanks for the possibility.

Andy Follows: 1:28:55

You've been listening to CAREER-VIEW MIRROR with me, Andy Follows depending on your unique life experience where you find yourself right now and your personal goals, you'll have your own takeaways from Justin's story. Some elements that stood out for me were that he learned resilience from an early age. Having gone through the stages of wanting to be a helicopter pilot and a fighter pilot. He recognised that business would be an interesting route. Its performance at university and his marketing thesis on disintermediation in the pharmaceutical industry. Got him a lecturing job whilst he waited for his ing role to start. He has been involved in digitization and direct sales from the beginning of his career, the story of how he met the woman who had become his wife in Italy, and how they managed to keep their relationship secret for all that time. And his experience at the integration of alphabet and ing car leasing, how he continued to grow, which led to his appointment as Chief Commercial Officer of Alphabet in the Netherlands and the very open story he shares of his time in that role the challenges he faced And what he's learned from them. Finally, his departure from that business, his intentional approach to preparing for his second phase and the benefits that has already brought him in terms of time with his family. If you'd like to connect with Justin, we'll put his contact details in the show notes to this episode. If you enjoy listening to my guests stories, please could you do me a favour and share an episode with someone you lead parent or mentor? Or perhaps a friend of yours who you think would also enjoy listening? Thank you to Justin for joining me for our conversation. Thank you to our sponsors for this episode ASKE Consulting and Aquilae and thank you to the Career-View Mirror team without whom we would not be able to share our guests life and career stories. And above all, thank you to you for listening.