Katrin Zimmermann: building an adventurous, innovative and intentional career from an apprenticeship with Lufthansa to establishing and leading TLGG's New York office.

In this episode we are celebrating the career to date of Katrin Zimmermann.

Katrin launched TLGG’s New York office. As Managing Director, she is responsible for consulting services with global clients. At TLGG, Katrin has served and mentored clients on business strategy, digital transformation, marketing transformation and innovation up to the C-suite.

Prior to joining TLGG, Katrin co-created the Lufthansa Innovation Hub (named as best digital lab by Capital Magazine in 2017 and 2018) with global responsibility for business innovation where she developed ventures in the services and mobility field from Seoul to Berlin.

She has a deep knowledge of digital marketing and growth hacking techniques which enabled new ventures to scale quickly and incumbent players to strategically maximize their ROI.

Katrin has over 15 years of client-side experience in travel, hospitality, logistics and loyalty.

She is also an expert in web analytics, SEO and SEM. She has a proven track record of driving traffic and improving conversions through data-driven optimization strategies.

In our conversation we discuss the early influence of her Montessori education, her apprenticeship with Lufthansa, the transferable skills and experience she developed as a Flight Attendant and how she has built her career block by block, having fun, creating opportunities and taking them even (or maybe especially) if they took her outside of her comfort zone so that she now finds herself fulfilling one of her dreams which was to live and work in New York City.

I enjoyed getting to know Katrin during our conversation and I look forward to hearing what resonates with you.

Connect with Katrin
LinkedIn: Katrin Zimmermann
Email: katrin@tlggconsulting.com
Website: TLGG Consulting  

Thank you to our sponsors:
ASKE Consulting
Email: hello@askeconsulting.co.uk

Aquilae
Email: cvm@aquilae.co.uk

Episode Directory on Instagram @careerviewmirror  

If you enjoy listening to our guests career stories, please follow CAREER-VIEW MIRROR in your podcast app. 

Episode recorded on 8 February, 2024.

Transcript

Katrin Zimmermann: 0:00

To this day, I tell my mom sometimes when she's like, Oh, this is what you're thinking of. I tell my dad, you gave me wings, me and my brother, you gave us wings. You know, like, I understand that sometimes you can't see where we might fly. But you know, that's what you equipped us with. And we're very thankful for that. And so we might discover unexpected places.

Aquilae: 0:20

Welcome to CAREER-VIEW MIRROR, the automotive podcast that goes behind the scenes with key players in the industry looking back over their careers to share insights to help you with your own journey. Here's your host, Andy Follows.

Andy Follows: 0:34

Hello, listeners, Andy here. Thank you for tuning in. We appreciate that you do. We're also very grateful for our guests who generously join me to create these episodes so that we can celebrate their careers listen to their stories, and learn from their experiences. In this episode, we're celebrating the career to date of Katrin Zimmerman, Katrin launched TLGG's New York office as managing director she's responsible for consulting services with global clients. At TLGG, Katrin has served and mentored clients on business strategy, digital transformation, marketing, transformation, and innovation up to the C suite. Prior to joining TLGG, Katrin co-created the Lufthansa Innovation Hub named as best digital lab by capital magazine in 2017, and 2018, with global responsibility for business innovation, where she developed ventures in the services and mobility field from Seoul to Berlin. She has a deep knowledge of digital marketing and growth hacking techniques which enable new ventures to scale quickly and incumbent players to strategically maximise their ROI. Katrin has over 15 years of client side experience in travel hospitality, logistics and loyalty. She's also an expert in web analytics, SEO and SEM she has a proven track record of driving traffic and improving conversions through data driven optimization strategies. In our conversation, we discussed the early influence of her Montessori education, her apprenticeship with Lufthansa, the transferable skills and experience she developed as a flight attendant and how she's built her career block by block having fun creating opportunities and taking them even, or maybe especially if they took her outside of her comfort zone, so that she now finds herself fulfilling one of her dreams which was to live and work in New York City. I enjoyed getting to know Katrin during our conversation, and I look forward to hearing what resonates with you. If you're listening for the first time. Hello, I'm Andy Follows. I'm a trusted adviser to senior leaders in the automotive industry. I work alongside them and their teams to release systemic and psychological handbrakes and enable fulfilling performance. Contact me if you'd like to know more. Hello, Katrin, and welcome. Where are you coming to us from today?

Katrin Zimmermann: 3:12

Hi, Andy, thank you for having me. I'm coming out of Brooklyn, New York today and it's a sunny day. So very lovely.

Andy Follows: 3:19

Well, you're very welcome. And that's quite a cool sound and glamorous sounding location. New York City is very recognised globally. I think it's a pretty exciting place to be. So I'm very interested to understand how you got there. Can we start right at the beginning, please with where you

Katrin Zimmermann: 3:34

I was born in a small part of Germany called were born. Clifford Erding. And in particular, some people who were also born in the 80s might know it from a very big Chemical Company and pharma company these days, they I had one of their footprints there and I grew up in the surrounding areas of that at the time.

Andy Follows: 3:57

Right. And I love to know, the family that you were born into. What did your mom and dad do? And did you have brothers and sisters?

Katrin Zimmermann: 4:05

Yes, I have one brothers and one brother, not two brothers, one brother, who is very close to me were very close siblings, which is very lovely. And my parents, my father worked in the insurance industry for all of his life, so very loyal to the insurance field and my mom, she had a bit of a career move when I was born, which is an interesting one, she was actually a teacher for athletics. And then she eventually became a therapist. So there's a special name for it in German that I can't translate right now.

Andy Follows: 4:39

Is it like a physical therapist?

Katrin Zimmermann: 4:40

It is like a physical therapist, but it's not a physical therapist. So it is, um, development for children who potentially have a risk for a physical handicap. And so she has been a become over the last 30 years quite an expert in the field. Being highly regarded as it and to this day is teaching although She's She's retired at this point is teaching particularly kindergarten teachers on how to watch out for kids affected by potential disabilities

Andy Follows: 5:09

sounds very fulfilling field that she's moved into now the fact that she was an athletics Coach, did that influence you at all? Were you an athletic student?

Katrin Zimmermann: 5:18

I would say genuinely Yes, I tried a lot of different types of sports I have had throughout my life favourites that I stuck with for a longer time, play tennis for a while, I really enjoyed that a lot, did a lot of boxing in my past. And right now I'm following the hipster suite of Brooklyn, of being a member of a club called session, which is the latest and greatest of exercising in, in this case in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, which is expanding rapidly. And it's a fantastic workout that is very much self paced, but in a good energy environment. So enjoy that a lot.

Andy Follows: 5:53

Excellent. Um, what about academically? As a student? How would your teachers describe you?

Katrin Zimmermann: 5:59

Oh, they would probably describe me as the rebel who always had something to say. You have to know though Andy, I went to a school that was somewhat special in the area that I grew up with, it had a multitude of pillars that were different to a public school system. So on the one hand side, it was a school, that to this day, teach us the concept of Maria Montessori. So I'm brought up in the logic of and this is two strong parts still fulfilling my career today'help me to do it myself', which is the philosophy of Maria Montessori in school. Then secondly, it was a school that integrated handicapped students who have like a keen eye to the aspect of the AI but grew up in the context of this just being a part of my life. And then last but not least, it was also a school that was financed by or supported by the Catholic Church. And so we had like a very strong component to religious education, I would say,

Andy Follows: 7:00

Oh what a fascinating blend. So I've heard of Montessori schools, I didn't know anything about them, you know, then driving past them and thinking, Oh, that's one of those Montessori schools, I've never really learned what was different about them. So now that you're in a senior position, you're hiring people, you've got the benefit of hindsight, other things, aspects of your education, that think really helped you. That style of education. Absolutely,

Katrin Zimmermann: 7:25

I would say the core driver is this really this concept of 'help me to do it myself' is to do things. It's not only to think about things, and be very intellectual about them, but also then execute and deliver and see that as equal matter. And I feel that that type of integrated education has helped me to actually have impact. What I find find a lot in general in people is, they're really good at one of these things. And I'm maybe not outstanding on either, but I can combine the things very well. And so that has had, I would say, the impact on how I live my life and how my career has progressed, that I can, you know, dial up what is needed on either side, in order to push the limits as I like to do.

Andy Follows: 8:10

So what I'm thinking, as you say that is that and please correct me if I've misunderstood, but that you might not be the most knowledgeable on the topic, or the biggest expert in the room on the topic. But you're the one that's probably going to get something done on this topic, if if you've got your hands on it,

Katrin Zimmermann: 8:30

I would say that's generally potentially true, I might not be the longest in the theme. But what I'm really good at because I, I have learned to learn myself, which is the core concept. And some of my colleagues once described it as my superpower is that I potentially come into a situation that where I have very little background, whether that's an industry or whether that's just a context of something and I'm really, really good at at capturing the different nuances, the understanding of a company's industry trajectory and future opportunity, and then formulate next steps and action them in a way that oftentimes the people who are in the situation for a long time can do in the same

Andy Follows: 9:14

right, and you can trace that back to this style of fashion, education of 'help me to do this'. So there was that side of it. And also then you were surrounded. It was totally integrated with children who were disabled or handicap. And so the concept of diversity and inclusion. You didn't have to learn it. It was already there.

Katrin Zimmermann: 9:35

It was a given exactly. And I find this still interesting because to this day, obviously and we absolutely need to have it I'm a strong proponent for DEI, but it's so interesting to me sometimes how to ask that was, you know, just part of day to day, and I'm using the word just because for many people, it is not, but it does something to you when you grow up in a context that just normalise the situation. Here's where you might have to help someone who sits in a wheelchair, and down some stairs because that is not possible. And even goes as far as us having experience weeks of how our fellow students experienced the world. And so I have experienced, for example, in sitting in a wheelchair for a week as a as a child and going through, what does that mean? How do you view the world? What are the opportunities? What are the obstacles? What are the threats in the context of that, so really ingrained in the education to have an understanding, but sometimes I feel and that's the critical reflection, I would say, not an eye for it, because for me, it is so normal to react to it. But I'm obviously have to be aware that not everyone has had that same experience. So for some people, this results in different reactions. So that is, that is something interesting for me to focus on in the day to day, and the world that we live in today, which is often more divided than we actually anticipate.

Andy Follows: 10:59

So it sounds like you're grateful for having had that experience, you're also mindful that it was not everybody's experience. And so you have a little bit of patience, and perspective on other people having to learn some of this and having to catch up. If you like, what about the Catholic religion? side? The third thing you mentioned the pillar, if you like, is that important to you? Or is that stayed with you? Or is that I

Katrin Zimmermann: 11:24

I think it has just fundamentally formed to who I am, how I approach the world, and how I think, and how I also reflect on it today. So over the course of my life, I've had a multitude of experience the interesting thing in school, why religion was a subject, and I find that it's different to very many other places in the world, as a standard across my 13 years of education. It had a very, I would say, realistic and even critical perspective to what do we understand about religion today? How do we educate people? And what is the ethical component of it? And how might we find that in other parts of human life? So it had definitely its origin in religion and educating you but requiring to think critically and go beyond what you might find in a very literal, religious education?

Andy Follows: 12:14

Right? It does sound a very helpful, helpful way of looking at religion.

Katrin Zimmermann: 12:20

Absolutely.

Andy Follows: 12:22

Okay, I've now got this picture of your the outspoken student, maybe the teachers would have said, some sport going on, your father's in insurance, your mom's athletics coach going into her new field, at some point, when did you start to have ideas about what you might do? Once you left school,

Katrin Zimmermann: 12:40

I had for a very long time, the idea that I would go more in the creative arts, because for a very long time, I was playing in a theatre and in musicals. And that was a very fulfilling experience for me. So I reflect on oftentimes in my in my job today, when I'm I have to be on stage, whether that is, you know, in the workplace or back in at these times, of how that made me feel, and why I might feel comfortable, or why I might have enough respect for the task of being onstage and what that might mean how people might perceive you how that has a component of an entertainment and potentially a component of education. But also obviously requirements of very strong discipline of training yourself on something, maybe also evolving yourself into a new character training different skill sets that you have, and then ultimately enjoying, obviously, and that is, that is a part of the the Pro and the con of of this learning and being applause to for something that you that you deliver. So a lot of learning during the probably 10 to 12 years that I did that with my with my life or as a core hobby that I had as a kid. Right?

Andy Follows: 13:56

That's really interesting. I was going to ask you how long you were involved doing that? So 10 to 12 years? What age range? Are we talking that you were doing that?

Katrin Zimmermann: 14:06

Pretty much all of my school life, for for one year where I lived in the US as an exchange student, I did that either within school or as an additional music school activity.

Andy Follows: 14:18

And you've thought you've obviously thought about it seems to me, you've thought about it. It's very reflectively in terms of all the aspects that it comprises and how they then now, are still there for you, we step out on the platform to speak rather than sing or perform. I imagine now it's more speaking and being a business leader. Could that ever have been a path that you'd stayed on? What and I say this my daughter's an actor, so she's now in her late 20s? Was that ever a path that you thought this could be my future? Or was that always a pastime and a hobby?

Katrin Zimmermann: 14:54

And there was a moment where I thought that this could be my future but I admire your daughter for following this passion because I'm also, you know, I have a strong analytical component with which I look onto my life. And at the time, I was like this is going to be very, very difficult and will require not only your own dedication, but also a lot of luck to be successful in this career. So I decided that the time that probably that was going to be more wonderful memory and passion. And maybe that's something in parts of my life as pockets I continue to embark on, but not as a career trajectory.

Andy Follows: 15:31

Yeah, you're absolutely right about the amount of luck that's required. It's not an industry where you can knuckle down and just work your way up. It's got a very high luck factor. So what were you thinking then when that wasn't going to be your plan? So what did you decide to do?

Katrin Zimmermann: 15:47

What did I decide to do? It's a lovely question. So I, it was a very interesting time of my life when

Andy Follows: 15:51

I've had a number of guests who've had a similar I made a career decision or embarked on the journey of okay, what can I do. And what I realised I looked into different universities actually came to the UK, you're sitting in the UK, as a neighbour and wonderful woman that I very much admire, had started to study in Cambridge. So I went to visit her and see if maybe that type of education and what she was doing was going to be something that I could be imagining she was studying business at the time. So I found that super interesting. I talked to a lot of people in different fields, and then applied for an apprenticeship slash study programme that is particular to the German education system, where you apply for in the end a job, and then the company that potentially selects you, pays you in form of an apprenticeship throughout the course of your education. And you study at a private university and also do an apprenticeship. And I was lucky and fortunate enough at the time, to be selected by Lufthansa, the German airline, as a student and respective vocational training participant in 2001. Now, everyone who and we already said that I live in New York and come out of New York, we know what historic year that was for the US. And in particular for New York. And so in 2001, moving into the airline industry, was a lot of luck going back to the subject of luck, because I started on the first of October 2001. And we all know what 911 was just a few weeks before that. So I started on a very shaky ground in the context of a company that was looking at, okay, what does this mean for the airline industry? How is that going to change us and all the subsequent changes that then came about, but I was very fortunate that they decided to play the long tail and took us on and had a very diversified and amazing education that was customised to the requirements of the airline industry and Lufthansa in particular, but also allowed us to collaborate with students from other big companies in Germany and internationally being IBM, Mercedes and Bosch at the time. educational background in Germany, it just sounds like a very strong start to be combining business and your education at the same time. So you're it sounds like you were business was the goal, not necessarily aviation, or Lufthansa, it was you set yourself on the business path. And it happened that Lufthansa selected you for that and what a great opportunity. And then so that's how you you started out? So how, how long is the programme where you're studying and working? And when do you actually sort of pop out the end and have to find yourself a job in the business? How long does that take?

Katrin Zimmermann: 18:48

It's a three year process. And roughly after two years, you end your vocational training. In my case, that meant really I'm a in German, we say [german speech]. So that's an aviation expert to be just roughly translating, meaning you really learn the basics of the business from ticketing to the calculation of the mean aerodynamic core to make sure that an aircraft was leaving the ground correctly. And then it's a three year study at a private university in Stuttgart in our case, or in my case in particular, and the opportunity to take Okay, the structure is the following. You have three months studying three months vocational or internship training. And I was very fortunate to leverage the international footprint of Lufthansa in the best way. So during the three years, I lived in many different places from Hungary to Hong Kong to New York, to different cities in Germany really being able to capture and learn about the benefits of working for an airline that is very international and flies to a multitude of locations, and hence can employ you in a multitude of locations.

Andy Follows: 20:00

Yeah, very good opportunity to have that one thing I didn't ask you which I, I'm gonna go back and ask you in terms of your parents. And the way they parented you were there. Were there big expectations on you, or were they just super supportive and wanted you to do whatever you wanted to do? How did they feature in your decision making?

Katrin Zimmermann: 20:21

They definitely were strong supporters, but they will also sometimes surprised by the things that I suggested I do. So I remember probably being 15. And a friend of mine said, Hey, there's the American house in Cologne, let's go and visit it. And coming back and telling my parents I just applied for a scholarship to do a year of exchange in the US. And my parents were like, Oh, wow, okay, what does this mean? Quite surprising. So, you know, they were supportive, but it was I was challenging, challenging as a child, and for them what was mentally, you know, they had anticipated me to do in my life or with my life, I would say,

Andy Follows: 21:01

yeah, it does sound like the sort of thing you might have come home and talk to us about before you. I'm wondering if well you sent me to this school, and this school taught me to do things. So what do you expect?

Katrin Zimmermann: 21:17

Yeah, exactly. To this day, I tell my mom, sometimes when she's like, Oh, this is what you're thinking of, I tell my dad, you gave me wings, me and my brother, you gave us wings. You know, like, I understand that sometimes you can't see where we might fly. But you know, that's what you equipped us with. And we're very thankful for that. And so we might discover unexpected places.

Andy Follows: 21:39

Wonderful. You just described the benefits of being in an organisation Lufthansa, which has international locations, and has the means of getting around them as well, and what that meant for opportunities for you. Now, I know from looking at your background, that you were at one time a flight attendant. So was that part of the training programme? Or was that the first job you did after you finished?

Katrin Zimmermann: 22:02

It was the first job after I finished because I realised I was very young at the time, and I realised, wow, I think it was 21. I'm going into a classical career in a company of such history. Without trying to see the world which I had a taste or had gotten a taste of during my education is going to be potentially a miss. It's something that I can do now. And not later, you cannot go back to being a flight attendant after having some classical career in a corporate headquarters. So I decided I'm going to walk into a different direction and try this very unexpected thing. It wasn't only me, it was a few people who decided to do that. And it was probably one of the most enriching personal experiences I had throughout my career in the context of think there's hardly any other job in the service industry where you are exposed to so many human interactions, human emotions in an intercultural context. And I'm still fascinated because everyone thinks, Okay, this is, this is a server in the air. But in the end the complexities of the drops in the extreme situations, not in the standard. It's so fascinating and so challenging at the same time, and really requires certain skill sets from people that sharpen my understanding of the world of different cultures have different behaviours of my abilities to react to them in, in retrospective, looking at it in the most profound ways.

Andy Follows: 23:33

I love that I love any example where you, you take a look at a job that you think you're aware of the, it's fun that it's in the public eye. And you just pause. And you know, we've probably all got our paradigms about what sim involves that use the expression of server in the sky. But you just pause briefly as we did then. And as you have obviously explained many times to people what's really going on? And you've made me think, wow, yes, the intensity of interactions that you're going to have in a very concentrated space with humans at their worst, it either Tired, hungry, frightened, lots of emotions that people have around travel and flying. And you're having to deal with kind of a barrage of of interactions in that. Yeah, very interesting. And how that then sets you up, teaches you allows you to practice hours and hours of practice dealing with people rapid fire over a number of years, and then you get that skill to take with you forever.

Katrin Zimmermann: 24:39

No, absolutely. I think it what it does for me, I really learned how I maybe that sounds pretentious, but how I use my personality, my charm, my ability, my energy in ways of, you know, trying to navigate a situation in a way that or maybe create some positivity when someone had anxiety Like, how do you react? How do you understand people's needs, even if they come from a different culture, because whereas you might, you know, only look at a woman fully covered, or someone of a different religion, which you know, has challenging situations with touch, for example, to create comfort, in other situations, elderly Western person, it's always about touch and bringing that connection to the table in order to calm someone down and learning these skill sets and tools, and just being able to apply them in a day to day I think, gave me just a toolbox of reaction and understanding. And sometimes I do that better in the day to day because it's been a while since I've practised that, in that logic, but I really appreciate what exposure I had and the learnings that I took away in how to interact with human beings in the most empathetic way, I would say,

Andy Follows: 25:51

Yeah, I think there's a lot of value. So we've got all of those things you learned from musical theatre, all of those things you learned from being in the cabin, and all those things you learned at school already, those behaviours you learned at school is a bit of a picture of you collecting a lot of very helpful skills and behaviours and experience. And you were also at your travel bug, you were satisfying your travel bug. At the same time. Were you able to have some fun? I

Katrin Zimmermann: 26:23

would double underscore the sun. No, I have to say this was such it was almost it sounds terrible to say probably for some people. But in retrospective, it was almost entertainment, you know, like this time of my life was, it was it's being exposed to so many new opportunities in such a dense moment of time. Being able to experience cultures and work environments and people and ambitions and dreams and all of the things and being able to soak that in because you know, German work environment allows for even in Lufthansa being at the centre of Europe also geographically allowed to, hey, let's go to Barcelona for the weekend. Or let's spend spend some time on a on a longer holiday in Southeast Asia and do island hopping like all of these things were possible on a obviously cheap budget. And so I've made the most out of my time there and do that and go into as many countries and cultures and meet as many people, mostly with a backpack, and a good friend of mine, and to just experience the world and what it has to offer.

Andy Follows: 27:33

Let me take a moment to tell you about our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by ASKE Consulting who are experts in Executive Search, Resourcing Solutions and Talent Management across all sectors of the automotive industry in the UK and Europe. I’ve known them for almost 20 years, and I can think of no more fitting sponsor for CAREER-VIEW MIRROR. They're the business we go to at Aquilae when we're looking for talent for our clients and for projects that we're working on. ASKE was founded by Andrew McMillan whose own automotive career includes board level positions with car brands and leasing companies. All ASKE consultants have extensive client-side experience which means they bring valuable insight and perspective for both their employer and candidate customers. My earliest experience of working with Andrew was in 2004 when he helped me hire Regional Managers for my leasing sales team at Alphabet. More recently, when Aquilae was helping a US client to establish a car subscription business, ASKE Consulting was alongside us helping us to develop our people strategy and identify and bring on board suitable talent. Clients we've referred to ASKE have had an equally positive experience. Andrew and the team at ASKE are genuinely interested in the long-term outcomes for you and the people they place with you. They even offer the reassurance of a 2-year performance guarantee which means they have‘skin in the game’ when working with you. If you're keen to secure the most talented and high potential people to accelerate your business and gain competitive advantage, do get in touch with them and let them know I sent you. You can email Andrew and the team at hello@askeconsulting.co.uk or check out their website for more details and more client feedback at www.askeconsulting.co.uk . ASKE is spelt A S K E. You’ll find these contact details in the shownotes for this episode. Ok, let’s get back to our episode. Did you choose when that would come to an end? Or did the company say hey, you've had your fun Katrin. We need you to do something else. Now you're bigger than this. We can put some more responsibility on you or how did it work?

Katrin Zimmermann: 29:45

No, that was that was absolutely me. So I have to say in the last year I flew part time and studied innovative hospitality management. So that is the correct terminology. So I was I loved the job. It was amazingly educative, would I've seen myself doing this for the rest of my life No. And so it was always clear for me that it was a part of my life, but not my life maybe. And for many people, it is their life. And I think it's a fantastic job to have. So no perspective on that. But just for me, it was, I would say, I finished on a high, I absolutely would recommend for everyone to be a flight attendant at some point in their life, because it's such an educational opportunity that is difficult to get in other environments. But to answer your question, I then did these studies moved to Barcelona at the time to do that, and still flew out of Frankfurt, then most of the time to some Asian city or to Israel as that we're short trips that gave me a lot of working hours. And then were able to study a master's degree in Barcelona. And after that started working within the Lufthansa Group in a strategic position, which kind of fit the innovative part and the flight attendant part because I was responsible for business development for all of the in flight experiences as a supplier company within LSG. Sky chefs.

Andy Follows: 31:07

So who are you selling? You're doing business development, what are you selling and to whom,

Katrin Zimmermann: 31:11

okay, so all of the experiences that LSG creates in aircrafts around the world at the time, we looked at similar industries that might benefit from that skill set, or might need that type of skill set. So I was pitching to train companies pitching to schools, or school systems, hospitals, etc, etc.

Andy Follows: 31:31

So this is making me think of your current consulting role. It's similar for already some early experience happening there. And I don't usually do this with my guests, but I just happen to have your sort of your LinkedIn profile in front of me. And I know, then notice that you became EA to a board member, which is, I mean, that's, that's a fast track ticket, usually, to some sort of, based on the conversations I've had the people I've known myself who are in big positions, now senior positions, they, at some point in their career, got the opportunity to be an executive assistant to a board member. Tell us a little bit about how you got that and what it was like and is it it? Was it as valuable as I'm obviously my perception is?

Katrin Zimmermann: 32:22

Oh, absolutely. What is valuable? To answer your last question first, how does that happen? It always happens with luck. And I would say unusual career choices on my side,

Andy Follows: 32:31

please, please say more.

Katrin Zimmermann: 32:35

No, so the Executive Board member that I was fortunate enough to be an EA to at the time was responsible for all of the group airlines. So for Swiss Austrian, German banks at the time now, flying under discovery slash Euro wings, was also responsible for HR. And so when he selected in my opinion, a very wise fashion, he was looking at people who had diversified experience across the organisation. And me having been a flight attendant for a while, but also having had certain career steps in between. He was like, Oh, she could be a perfect fit to also understand the biggest employee body of the organisation being flight attendants. And so kind of looking, looking at that and bringing people with diverse backgrounds in order to have perspective from across the organisation. Because I think what Lufthansa is amazingly good at is being able to mitigate as an organisation all of the different levels of perspective that need to be mitigated in an organisation that has such a high service and requirements, but also such a heavy need on security, safety and technology advancements, obviously, so how do you balance that? And how do you bring the right people from all perspectives to the table to help influence and provide perspective to the C suite?

Andy Follows: 33:59

So he recognised you would have value you'd have a knowledge you've been and done things in the organisation that would be really helpful for him to have someone who understood that and it was also respected by those bodies within the organisation.

Katrin Zimmermann: 34:13

Absolutely. And we were a team of a multitude of EAs who came from there was a pilot, there was someone who had a different type of educational programme. I'll run through that programme. So we really a mix of team members who had run through different education systems of Lufthansa, also, obviously, to showcase that that was a great career director, we within the organisation, and

Andy Follows: 34:37

I'm thinking you would have been creating a great network of people across the business and you'd have had exposure and profile in that role to senior people. Is there anything else we should say about that before we move on to your next stage of your journey?

Katrin Zimmermann: 34:53

Yes, I think what's been particular in this role, I did this for four years, which is very long time anomaly that is is a two year two year gig and then you you move on to something else. At the time, what happened is that the executive board member that I worked for stepped down, and the second female to the executive team joined. I've never worked for a woman before. So I was very excited about that. And work for C suite woman at that, and work for a board that had two females in it. So almost being 50%. Female was very unique at the time. And I think it's even unique to this day, no matter where, where you look to. So it was very fortunate to learn a lot about female power, female empowerment, how to do things, and how maybe not to do things. In this day and age, we can, I think, still say it kind of break through the glass ceiling that many women still face in the workplace. And so it was very fortunate to be part of that journey and learn from these two wonderful women.

Andy Follows: 35:55

Yeah, that does sound like an incredible opportunity. What would be a piece of advice you'd give to young women coming through? Then based on what you learned from that?

Katrin Zimmermann: 36:05

I would probably quote one of them who said to me at one point, like, don't forget, you can always apologise later. Because no, but it is a tool set, right? Like it's, it's when you understand, hey, do I always have to ask for permission? Or can I just sometimes do and if it doesn't go? Well, I can still say, Hey, I'm sorry. Because obviously, working in the airline industry, safety and security were a huge cultural theme for us. And it's for many industries in this world today. And as the world gets more complex for more and more anyway. And so this guidance and directive to say yes, sometimes just go and trust that, you know, you can still apologise and nothing terribly consequential will happen is giving you a lot of freedom, even if you're having, you know, a limited set of responsibilities of freedom in your own situation. And I'm feeling constrained by but actually breaking some of the barriers, I think that is what that mentality gave me on my way and subsequent career steps.

Andy Follows: 37:05

And I can imagine that coupled with your help me do this took away another constraint. Great piece of advice. So you did that for, as you say, unusually four years, rather than than two. So I can only begin to imagine how much you've learned in that time how, how well you got to know senior people in the organisation and how much exposure you had to topics to be able to say, I'm really interested in this or less interested in that this is the direction I want to go. Was there an increasing sort of focus from your point of view?

Katrin Zimmermann: 37:41

Yeah, I think that was the moment in my career where I realised at some point, you need to take matters into your own hands if you want to progress and just say, this is the thing that I think this organisation should be doing. And this is how it should be doing it. And this is why I want to do it for you. So learning these three things have in an organisation and I learned that very early in the Lufthansa Group. And I'm very grateful for having that understanding big organisations only function as the concept of big organisations. Meaning that in the end, every individual in the organisation no matter where they stand is replaceable and must be replaceable. Because it's an organisation people might think it's sad that you're leaving or that you're doing something else. But in the end, the organisation needs to continue. That's the purpose of the organisation. And that's good, because it's not one individual, but it's a team of people who come together to produce or deliver something great. And with that learning, I think I realised quickly, that also gives you freedom of saying, Hey, I see a piece of the pie missing over here, or or I think there's something that I could add in value over here that you might have not seen it or prioritise. But I could give you argumentation, of why it's worthwhile to look at. And so in the context of this role, what we as executive assistants at the time, and realised is that the whole subject of digital transformation was coming about more and more. And we flagged this to our executive board. And we're ultimately asked to come up with a concept to think through how we might use and at the time, the subject of innovation hubs and outside in innovation units was very big thing through that is an endeavour that Lufthansa should be embarking upon, and then find a concept developed concept in order to do that, and me and a couple of colleagues together, we then co founded the Lufthansa Innovation Hub, with a group of internal and external teammates. Starting on a journey that to this day is very successful and very exciting part of the organisation that obviously I'm very proud of, but I also understand the challenges of bringing something to live of this magnitude in a big organisation.

Andy Follows: 39:52

Was that your first experience of a startup creating a startup even though it was within a mature organisation?

Katrin Zimmermann: 39:58

Yeah. So intrapreneurship, as we call it,

Andy Follows: 40:03

yeah, what a fabulous opportunity that you created for yourself in terms of ITU and your colleagues identifying what was necessary and saying, This is what we can do. And thank you for sharing that. I think it's so important that idea of taking ownership and recognising this organisation is, is an opportunity. It's a market, I use the word market place, I have some value that I want to sell to the organisation who in the organisation wants to buy, what I bring. And having that mindset about a career, I think is really helpful. It gets the right sense of ownership and responsible gets the responsibility in the right place. So absolutely. So you did that. And how long did you do that for Katrin?

Katrin Zimmermann: 40:42

About two years?

Andy Follows: 40:43

And that was a lot of exposure. Was it to external? Were you bringing in people with ideas and helping them to create startups themselves?

Katrin Zimmermann: 40:51

No, exactly. So we were we were obviously looking at what's the right concept and at the time, particularly in Germany, but I would also say around the world, everyone, the subject was a lot of okay, digital innovation was like the hot new subject that everyone wanted, wanted to be in. And we were really evaluating and testing and learning of what's the right fit for. And the ambition that Lufthansa said he had set out for us to do at the time in the context of how does that work with embarking on a journey and collaborating more with the digital ecosystem that was growing at the time in Germany, but also internationally. So was yet again fortunate enough to do partnership collaborations with startups around around the globe, but also start to build and test can Lufthansa do that themselves? Do they have the breadth? Are they able to create the infrastructure to actually build in house innovation? And what are other components of the business that might be leveraged to have impact and so really did the classical model of partner and build. And within the Lufthansa infrastructure, the investment part on the innovation side was a little bit more complicated due to some legal constraints of the organisation as a whole. But very exciting time, worked with a team in Korea to test conversational commerce very timely, in today's AI world, on the Kakao Talk, Super App at the time. So have some interesting international experience as well. And then obviously did a lot in the home market of Germany, collaborating with team members out of the Lufthansa Group to improve their products and services from the perspective of what can we from an outside in innovation unit support you do and maybe be more agile and faster and delivering it to the marketplace? And on the other hand side? Do that with you know, just ventures that were totally sitting outside of the constraints or logic of the Lufthansa corporate ecosystem?

Andy Follows: 42:47

Yeah, I was going to ask, were you able to help the wider areas of Lufthansa become more agile? Because of the practices that you were learning and practising? So really good experience? I'm sitting here thinking, I'm thinking possibly you were having some of the most fun that was going on in Lufthansa at the time in that sort of? Did you have that sense? How were your colleagues who were doing the more sort of traditional keeping the business going? They've got their jobs, and you're getting all innovative and having fun and partnering with other people and doing startups? Did you have the sense that you're having a lot of fun?

Katrin Zimmermann: 43:24

Absolutely. We had a lot of fun. We were given amazing amounts of freedom to experiment and test and try. I think always when you embark on outside of the comfort zone, there is a joy and an anxiety that's attached to that. And I think that was we were I would say sceptically looked at by the organisation. At first, they were like, Why is this happening? What is the intent here? Why do they move to Berlin? And why is this an air b&b And that's the office like, but particular my colleague who was leading it at the time did a fantastic job in opening the doors and inviting people to visit us and join in and start the collaboration and really connecting the dots of what we perceived at the time to be a little bit the pioneers out there looking for good next things, but then bringing a whole organisation at least the German colleagues along on that journey. And so from that maybe first scepticism we quickly became like an entity that was sought after as a collaborator and insider and maybe just different perspective to the table. And so that was very, very exciting to learn.

Andy Follows: 44:30

Yeah, and I'm thinking as we speak, as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking how helpful perhaps it would be that in your early consulting career, if you like as an intrapreneur, you had challenge, you had scepticism, you had to convince people of your value, even your colleagues, you had to convince them of your value. And there's all these things adding up to why I feel like you're really in the right place. Now. I don't know much about what you do, but having Look at and we'll talk about it shortly. But it just sounds like a very helpful building blocks leading towards you being in the position that you are now. Okay, so what happened after and how did it come about?

Katrin Zimmermann: 45:14

How did it come about? So at the time I had been with Lufthansa for 15 years, so and then respective, that is an amazingly long time. However, I would say because my career was so diverse at Lufthansa and within the different functions that I was holding. It was always exciting and fun. And I was like, this is a wonderful career to have the question you ask yourself when you've been with a company for 15 years is, is this where I want to spend the rest of my life? Or is it worthwhile to peek outside and see what might be out there not because it might be better, but because it's maybe worthwhile to get again, leave your comfort zone and see what's out there. I've been contemplating that thought for a little while as I'd also slowly but surely walk more to the outskirts of the organisation over my career. And then 2015 I was approached by to TLGG Christoph Bornschein, who had founded TLGG, in 2007, and who'd been a supplier to us in the setup of the Lufthansa innovation hub. And his company had just been bought by the Omnicom group. And he said, Well, they're headquartered in New York, and I'm going to open an office in New York. And I could imagine from the collaboration we've been having that you might be a great fit to help bring this to life. I had always contemplated or thought about, maybe it was more than not contemplation is the wrong word. It was on my bucket list, to be quite honest, to spend a part of my life in New York, I've been fascinated by the city of its diversity. It was a bit in a nutshell, all of the things that, you know, the internationalism, the serendipity, the experience that you can have, from a multitude of places and people and situations, kind of conglomerated into one, because if someone goes to the Bronx versus goes to Brooklyn Heights versus goes to the West Village, it is like visiting three different cities, potentially even countries in three hours. And so I always was fascinated by the city and wanted to live here. And he kind of put this in front of me. And I was like, Oh, I would love to, we then had to overcome a few visa challenges, because you have to have a working permit to go to the US and I hadn't worked for the company. But roughly a year later, I moved to New York City.

Andy Follows: 47:35

So tell me what does TLGG do.

Katrin Zimmermann: 47:39

So TLGG is, in the end, two components of expertise. One is historically social media. And I would say in the broader context digital agency, which is heavily focused on in our business in Berlin, and then here in the US also to complement the services that the Omnicom group who has acquired TLGG back in 2015 is is doing is in the end sitting at the cusp of the next new thing. So for a long time, that was in the context of digital transformation. Now digital transformation is more in the mainstream, and the next component of innovation and bringing new things to live since more in the context of AI, obviously, everyone has heard about it one of the fastest commoditized and potentially commercialised subjects, at least in the public eye in the last maybe 24 months. And so we are we're sitting in the wider Omnicom network to help organisations look into and then bring to life and potentially even connect to the existing organisation, the new thing, the new business, model the new product and service, the new process, and looking and bringing it to life through the lens of technology. And because AI enables us to not only do that through the lens of technology, but a multitude of perspectives at the same time. Because at the core, we can just leverage data to inform us better from a multitude, multitude of perspectives. That is what we are helping organisations to do today.

Andy Follows: 49:13

Can you give me an example that without asking you to, you know, obviously, you weren't telling me anything sensitive, but is there an example that you can give me anonymously at the sort of project you're helping someone with?

Katrin Zimmermann: 49:26

Absolutely. Let me it's always most interesting to speak to cutting edge subjects. So let me pick one that I think is affecting all of us in the day to day. I think we are at the cutting edge. And particularly in the US, I can say and how far this is also a subject that people concern themselves with in the UK and other parts of the world. But we're very much looking at our life, the length of our lives in the context of lifespan health span, which is the physicality of our body, but increasingly more what I consider to be the WellSpan so how well do we live our life not only how healthy do We live our life, but also how well do we live our life. And we see quite a lot of opportunity and more and more research in the context of happiness. You have a lot of people, neuroscientists, biologists going in the field and more publicly speaking about what influences your mental health? And how do you potentially use scientific evidence in improving your life. And so we've been working with a client who's I would say, at the cutting edge of how to improve WellSpan. And what are the day to day things in the very small nuggets, but also in the greater scheme of life, and how to design your life in the context of feeling good about it, feeling happy about it, what is happiness, what induces happiness on the multitude of layers of the body, and how to bring that to the world in a mass market product. So that's a very exciting subject. And it's maybe sounds a little bit nebulous, because while the company is publicly operating, a lot of the things that we're talking about are not yet in the public eye. But it's quite exciting on what's going on in the space and enabling us humans, who are all more aware of how do we feel in the day to day of being exposed to so much media and other things, of how to create a life that excites us to live?

Andy Follows: 51:15

Wow, that's really cool, I didn't think you were gonna come up with an example that was quite as fun as, or as what I love is that we've seen quite significantly in the last few years growing acceptance of these mental health issues that so acceptance, that there's a problem is no longer an issue, you know, having to persuade people that there's a problem, which is great. And now using data and using technology to identify all of the minor sort of data points that affect how I feel, how well I feel, and how that is going to impact my longevity and my experience of life. And then finding a way to prompt me, I guess, to guide me through some, probably a wearable or something that's going to help me make better choices and have a better life experience.

Katrin Zimmermann: 52:14

Absolutely. And also make you aware of some of the situations that maybe have become public domain, right, we all look at our phones over two and a half, 1000 times per day. It's just habits that we develop, right? And what does that do to you reacting to something that originally the brain, you know, wasn't meant for no one knew at the biological inception. But we'll do what are the second audit effects of some of these realities and great technologies that we have to brought to life. But how do we also use the latest technology to understand more and more of the human body and how it reacts to it, it's almost fascinating to me, there's a multitude of people who invest amazing amounts of money to understand the universe better and to understand the earth better. And there's so much to learn about the human body still, right? Like all of these interactions of the different systems within the body, and how they then create feelings and other things, is just something that is still in the discovery phase, I would say and technology is more and more, you know, brought to life that helps us create transparency. And quite interestingly, AI is a significant support in discovering some of these correlations that previously we were not able to discover. And so I think it's it's going to be very interesting era in the research on not only health and how our audience react to certain things, and then produce, for example, cancer, or metabolic diseases or cardiovascular diseases, but also how to how does the human body create the perception of the mind and the happiness of the mind and the sadness of the mind? And why is that happening? And how might we be able to stimulate that better as an individual? So it's really an empowering value proposition to me?

Andy Follows: 53:58

It really is using AI to enhance the human experience, isn't it? Which is surely the most appropriate or the best use of of AI? Does it give you a sense of purpose? It does, it excites me. I would say, throughout my career, I've always been very curious. And I learned very satisfactorily, that the surprising things the serendipity lie outside of my comfort zone. So I had to fight certain amounts of anxiety of for example, leaving Lufthansa at the time because it was safe place to work. It was fun. It was all very things. But sometimes leaving that comfort zone and looking at new frontiers is exciting. And I find that I would particularly encourage women to do that more because, you know, we have so many expectations and realities and maybe logics that we think we have to operate in that that is something that I did not find in too many cases or too many examples that always go into the next frontier. And then doing something new is so inherent to the female mind. Is there anything I haven't asked you capturing? That means there's a topic you'd like to talk about that I haven't uncovered?

Katrin Zimmermann: 55:11

And thinking because I think we had a wonderful conversation, and I hope that I was able to bring some new Career-view perspective. So I would personally say No, I think he got the golden nuggets out of it. No, I think it was, it was good to also speak about the it's not always easy, right, I had to find my own demons, sometimes to leave comfort zone and do things that might seem impossible or something, the thing that I find, and maybe that's something that you would want to cover on the context of international work environments, that might be the only one but everything else I think you got.

Andy Follows: 55:45

So let's talk a little bit about your international experience and what you've learned from working in different countries and with different cultures,

Katrin Zimmermann: 55:54

I would say it's a vast amount of learning, the thing that I learned maybe to reflect on myself a little bit is that I'm also always part of the context that I'm in. So I say to many people that I almost have an American and a German personality. And when I change language, my personality also somewhat switches. At least, that is my self perception. Most people do not experience me in both environments. So I have a very strong separation of the two for the reason of my, you know, I have my friends and family in Germany. And then I have made a lot of great new friends in the US, but they hardly ever mix. So there's a few people in my mom, my parents, in general, my brother, some very few friends who've experienced me in the American context, and in the German context, and there's a moment where my mom, like almost over actually, she did take a video of me because she was like, You're this different person, like, she doesn't speak English very well. So she doesn't understand what I'm saying. But the way that I behave and how I interact, is quite different. Because you know, you dial up or you dial down not only to the perception of what people see you in, but also to what you think you can be in that moment. And so that creates a lot of beautiful versatility in who I am, and how I express myself more as a bouquet of flowers, then maybe one type of a flower, which I really enjoy, I really enjoy that a lot.

Andy Follows: 57:27

I want to leave a pause after the bouquet of flowers analogy, because I think it's beautiful, and I don't want to come in and trample all over it. And it was making me think of your comment about when you know what you learned as a flight attendant. And all the tools you had, whether it was your empathy, your, you know, whatever you had at the time. That's what you're also doing. When you're in the US and you're dealing with people and you're using everything, you've got to make that connection and to communicate with them. Fascinating. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed our conversation. I'm thinking on the face of it, because I've had the opportunity now as have my listeners, thank you. I look at your profile. And I see oh, this is interesting, curious person goes from flight attendant, no disrespect to flight attendants. But it's a certain level of role to running a consultancy in New York City. How did that happen? And now we know, step by step how it happened. And it makes all the sense. In the world. Yes, there was, as you say, there were those crunch points where you had to face your fears. You had to take difficult decisions, you had to get uncomfortable, you took risks, but we can see how the skills development the behaviours that you picked up the mindset that you took even from school. You took that in and you did things and you were you had opportunities. You took the opportunities, there was some luck that there was exposure, there was profile, there were people asking you people approaching you saying would you come and open our office in New York. And I that's why I love having these conversations. That's why I love starting at Day Zero and coming through to understand so and also imagine someone's thinking of getting some help from an agency. And they now hear your story. And they think yeah, I understand this lady, this woman's got a lot of substance. I understand where she's coming from and how she cut her teeth on digital transformation in Lufthansa and learnt all the skills and now is offering help to people. So if people want to reach out to you, we'll put your details all of the details in the show notes, the LinkedIn email and website for TLGG.

Katrin Zimmermann: 59:41

Amazing. I look forward to connecting with any any listener who's interested, always exciting to meet new people.

Andy Follows: 59:47

Well, thank you very much for joining me. It's been my pleasure.

Katrin Zimmermann: 59:50

Thank you so much for having me. It's been my pleasure.

Andy Follows: 59:58

You've been listening to CAREER-VIEW MIRROR with me, Andy Follows. Depending on your unique life experience where you find yourself right now and your personal goals you'll have your own takeaways from Katrin's story. Some elements that stood out for me were first what we learned about the Montessori education she received based on the principle of 'help me do this.' Like some of my other guests, Katrin followed the German apprentice route which enabled her to study alongside her work. Noticing that when we take a step back and look at roles like flight attendant through the lens of what transferable skills and experience are being developed, it often provides a very different perspective. Katrin's life and career journey reveals her to be intentionally placing building blocks upon building block, creating opportunities and taking them even or maybe especially if they took her outside of her comfort zone until such time as she now finds herself fulfilling one of her bucket list items by living and working in New York City. If you'd like to connect with Katrin, we'll put her contact details in the show notes to this episode. If you enjoy listening to my guest stories, please could you do me a favour and share an episode with someone you lead parent or mentor? Or perhaps a friend of yours who you think would also enjoy listening? Thank you to Katrin for joining me for our conversation. Thank you to our sponsors for this episode, ASKE Consulting and Aquilae and thank you to the CAREER-VIEW MIRROR team, without whom we wouldn't be able to share our guest's life and career stories. And above all, thank you to you for listening.