Naeem Ghauri: leveraging his father's entrepreneurial DNA and his own affinity for technology to help clients be beneficiaries rather than casualties of disruption.

In this episode we are celebrating the career to date of Naeem Ghauri.

Naeem is the Chairman and a founding member of NetSol Technologies Inc., a Global provider of end to end IT solutions for the Leasing and Finance Industry. NetSol's clients are the Global Who's Who of Captive Auto Finance Companies as well as specialist Banks lending into Asset and Auto Finance for Large Enterprises, SME's and Consumers. They manage in excess of $300 Billion of their clients' Assets through their various IT platforms for over 200 clients globally.

Naeem is also a founder and former CEO of OTOZ, an On Demand Mobility platform.

OTOZ is the new enabling platform where OEMs, Auto Finance Companies, Car Dealers and Car Users will converge to create supply and demand for cars that are connected, insured, fuelled, charged, cleaned, accessible and ready for all types of journeys; an hour, a day, a week, a month or years.

NetSol has been listed on Nasdaq since 1999 and has clients in 30 countries and offices in 8.

In our conversation we discuss the influence that Naeem's entrepreneurial father had on Naeem and his brothers. We talk about why he turned away from aeronautical engineering and embraced IT. He shares openly about his successes and failures in property development in Australia and his route into NetSol with his brothers. He explains how his early years with Mercedes Benz finance were the start of a 28 year relationship between NetSol and Daimler. And we wrap up with some comments on the current landscape and NetSol's role to provide thought leadership and technology that enables their clients to be the beneficiaries of industry disruption rather than casualties.

I first heard about NetSol when I was in China in 2008 and I've met Naeem on various occasions since then. But we had never had such a detailed conversation about his life and career journey. I found it fascinating and helpful to understand Naeem's background as one of the brothers behind the NetSol business and I look forward to hearing what resonates with you.

Connect with Naeem
LinkedIn: Naeem Ghauri
Website: NETSOL

Thank you to our sponsors:
ASKE Consulting
Email: hello@askeconsulting.co.uk

Aquilae
Email: cvm@aquilae.co.uk

Release the handbrake! - The Fulfilling Performance Hub

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Episode recorded on 5 March, 2024.

Transcript

Naeem Ghauri: 0:00

So what I used to do was that at night at six o'clock when everybody left, I stayed in, and I would just pour into those books. Literally the entire night, I would just spend the entire night relearning coding almost from scratch. And in the morning, I would just pretend on the first one in and continue so at some time, sometimes that happened two or three days in a row. And eventually I nailed it, like completely nailed it.

Aquilae: 0:25

Welcome to CAREER-VIEW MIRROR, the automotive podcast that goes behind the scenes with key players in the industry looking back over their careers to share insights to help you with your own journey. Here's your host, Andy Follows

Andy Follows: 0:57

Hello, listeners, Andy here. Thank you for tuning in. We appreciate that you do. We're also very grateful for our guests who generously joined me to create these episodes so that we can celebrate their careers listen to their stories, and learn from their experiences. In this episode, we're celebrating the career to date of Naeem Ghauri. Naeem is the chairman and a founding member of NetSol Technologies Inc, a global provider of end to end IT solutions for the leasing and finance industry. NetSol's clients are the global who's who have captive auto finance companies, as well as specialist banks lending into asset and auto finance for large enterprises, SMEs and consumers. They manage in excess of $300 billion of their clients assets through their various IT platforms for over 200 clients globally. Naeem is also a founder and former CEO of OTOZ an on demand mobility platform. OTOZ is the new enabling platform where OEMs auto finance companies, car dealers and car users will converge to create supply and demand for cars that are connected, insured, fueled, charged, cleaned, accessible and ready for all types of journeys an hour a day, a week, a month or years. NetSol has been listed on NASDAQ since 1999, and has clients in 30 countries and offices in 8. In our conversation, we discuss the influence that Naeem's entrepreneurial father had on Naeem and his brothers, we talk about why he turned away from aeronautical engineering and embraced IT. He shares openly about his successes and failures in property development in Australia, and his route into NetSol. With his brothers, he explains how his early years with Mercedes Benz finance were the start of a 28 year relationship between NetSol and Daimler. And we wrap up with some comments on the current landscape and NetSol's role to provide thought leadership and technology that enables their clients to be the beneficiaries of industry disruption, rather than casualties. I first heard about NetSol when I was in China in 2008. And I've met Naeem on various occasions since then, but we'd never had such a detailed conversation about his life and career journey. I found it fascinating and helpful to understand Naeem's background as one of the brothers behind the NetSol business, and I look forward to hearing what resonates with you. If you're listening for the first time Hello, I'm Andy Follows I'm a trusted adviser to senior leaders in the automotive industry, I work alongside them and their teams to enable Fulfilling Performance. If you'd like to know more about Fulfilling Performance, check out Release the Handbrake, the Fulfilling Performance Hub on Substack. We'll put a link in the show notes to this episode. Hello, Naeem and welcome and where are you coming to us from today?

Naeem Ghauri: 3:46

Hi, Andy. I'm in Dubai at the moment.

Andy Follows: 3:49

Thank you very much indeed for joining me. It's a pleasure to see you. Well, as I asked all my guests, where did your journey start? Where were you born?

Naeem Ghauri: 3:58

I was born in a town in Punjab, Pakistan, called[name] is a very much a cultural melting pot deep in the south of Pakistan. Very rich in tradition and so on. I was born in a family which already had five boys. I was number five and then two more to follow all boys seven boys. Wow. So that's where it all started

Andy Follows: 4:25

As we were saying just before we started recording none of us gets the chance to choose where we're dropped onto this planet we turn up and in a certain set of circumstances so I'm always curious to find out from my guests what the situation was like you were number five of seven of what would become seven seven boys. Tell me a little bit please about growing up then what are your some of your memories of childhood and your family situation and then I'll ask you about school. What did you see your mum and dad doing? What was the environment that you were dropped into?

Naeem Ghauri: 4:59

Mom and Dad I'm very, very special. In the sense they were way ahead of their own time. Imagine in the 50s, late 50s they were born in 57. You can imagine a sleepy little town in Punjab, Pakistan. And dad was he had the franchise from Gulf Oil Company owned by the Rockefellers. So he had the franchise for local territory. And he didn't finish high school, even but extremely enterprising, one of the best salesmen I ever came across. He was very industrious, very enterprising, he would just get up and go. So he was selling oil door to door, mostly b2b was more more for businesses, you know, there are a lot of cottage industry in [place] small factories, textile, and so on, that needed oil for energy. So and for lubricants. So he was going door to door literally day in day out. And then dad saw that, you know, from the his own vision that he had five, six boys already, by the time he had the boy number six, which is my younger brother, he decided that there's not enough for him or his children. And his boys too in [place], he needs to go somewhere a little bit more progressive, that there's more opportunity for him. And for us, then he packed us all in into a very old Hillman, British brand. He packed us all Can you imagine that? The six of us and mum and dad into the back and picked up whatever belongings he had, we literally put a lock on the door and said, We're going to Lahore and Lahore was like imagining literally going from a small Midwestern town in the US to Los Angeles or New York, they were in a different new planet, you know, the two cities. So yeah, he just took us to Lahore and didn't really have a financial resources, or a plan as such, he just got some rented accommodation, put us in there. The next day, we were in school, literally in the best school in the neighbourhood. And literally, for us, it was just at that age, to have that kind of a culture shock. And to have parents who had that type of mentality, that they will take you out of a comfort zone. It's like your fish out of the water literally, in a new environment, new people new surroundings. So we got accustomed to change very, very early on in our lives.

Andy Follows: 7:28

That's incredible, as you say that he would take you out of your comfort zone to that extent with six of six children. And when he already had, he had a business he had, he had something at home. I was saying to a guest recently, it's about the letting go often. The change the hard part of change is letting go of the comfort and the familiarity. And he had the vision, though it was the vision clearly of wanting more for you. And the family that allowed him or supported him to make that big change. Yeah, so you all went to the same school?

Naeem Ghauri: 8:03

Yeah. So dad was in his thinking was always way ahead of everyone. So he put us in the poshest neighbourhood in Lahore, even though the rent would have been just unbelievable. But it was really the lower end of that neighbourhood in terms of affordability. But he was still in the postcode in a good postcode. And the schools basically because of that were the best in the area. So he took us to the local school. So the older four brothers were school age, at the time, I wasn't, I was still probably two or three. So he took the older ones to school the very next day. And it was a school that we grew to love over time, because we all ended up there one by one. And it was just literally walking distance from where we were. So dad just packed the older ones in the car and took them to school. They didn't even know what hit them. Because one day they will do one school the next day they were another in a totally different world, literally.

Andy Follows: 9:09

So the idea of getting a small house on the nicest Street, if you like is its textbook entrepreneurial behaviour that he's demonstrating. And this is pre internet. This is before people were being bombarded with motivational speakers and messaging from all of these gurus. So where is he getting this? His his ideas from?

Naeem Ghauri: 9:33

I mean, it's silly if we go back in history, and I used to interview my dad a lot. Sadly, he passed away during COVID at 94 lived a very full rich life. And I I was a student of his wisdom and his vision and his moves that he made throughout his life. And I used to ask him what was the motivation? And he said, Look, if you have six boys and And you guys are a handful, I could see the energy, I could see that you're not going to be fulfilled. Because it was a backward place, although culturally rich from an education point of view, from a growth point of view, he could see it even though he'd never finished high school. But the thing that actually gave him the drive was the people he used to hang out with, you know, the people who were selling to his oil are all business owners own factories, they were well off wealthy people. And if you mixed with them, he learned from them. And I mean, you won't believe this that, you know, one time, I think it was David Rockefeller senior, came to Pakistan, to look at all his dealers and talk to them and meet with them. And he met with dad. Dad tells the story, it was very fondly that he picked him out. He picked dad out and say, Okay, what do you do Mr Ghauri for us? He goes I sell your oil. And I sell them by the drum. You know, they used to come in drums. And it's really, really amazing Andy, that that one meeting with Rockefeller. And you fast forward, this would be 61 or 62. You fast forward to 1982. I was studying in the US dad comes to the US. And he says to me, Naeem, I want to go to New York. I'm in LA that says I want to go to New York. I said what? I want to meet David Rockefeller, says, Dad, come on, that's 20 years ago, you don't know he won't remember you. You know how you're going to find it. You need to get an appointment. You can't just show up. He said no, no, I just want to go to New York anyway. And I'm gonna go and go to the Rockefeller centre, I'm gonna go check the place out. And by that time, dad had been pretty successful, made a big business and, you know, so he's very resourceful himself. So I said, okay, so he went on his own. He goes to Rockefeller centre, this is a real true story. And he goes to the reception in the lobby, it says, I want to meet Mr. Rockefeller. Now, what are the chances that he would be in town on that particular day? That particular time? And the guy at the reception says, Well, who are you? You have an appointment? He said I don't have an appointment. I think if you're telling me, Mr. Ghauri, he will remember me. Okay. So he called. So this guy calls the Secretary or the secretary of the secretary, about four layers, maybe to get you the actual assistant. And they go through this and they get to Rockefeller, David Rockefeller, who will happen to be in his office at that particular time. This is this man downstairs. He wants to see you. Who is this guy? Well, he's come from Lahore, Pakistan. He says, you know him. His name is Mr Ghauri. He says, Yes, I do know him. I remember. So he he comes downstairs, he takes the lift, he comes downstairs, and says when he meets with him, gives a big hug and go upstairs and have coffee with him. That's who dad was. Nothing was difficult. Nothing was a barrier. he just overcame so many of them throughout his life.

Andy Follows: 13:12

Wonderful. And it's not his episode it's your episode Naeem. But I am curious when he took you to Lahore, which was like taking you to LA, he left behind the business, he already had locked the doors and realised that actually, I need to go where the market is where the people are, where the energy is, for my boys and for business. What did he do when he got there? What was the business just briefly, what did he have his success with in Lahore?

Naeem Ghauri: 13:41

Okay, so he was still an oil dealer. I mean, he had the franchise, and the franchise was forced out of a job. So I mean, you can imagine he cannot get a franchise in Lahore more expensive, more difficult to get a major city. So he had to commute back to[place] everyday back and forth, back and forth, in his car. So we are settled now in a better neighbourhood, better schools, but his life is very difficult. He's still going back and forth selling that oil. But gradually his network expanded. And that visit from Rockefeller I'm sure, introduced him to other people. But eventually, he diversified a few years later, from oil into heavy machinery because Pakistan was going through a major infrastructure development plan, and they needed a lot of hardware, building equipment cranes and bulldozers and so on. So dad got a franchise from Romania and Romania was one of the cheapest sources of hardware for road building. And Pakistan and Romania they had a deal for bought up because Pakistan didn't have hard Cash, hard dollars, they would trade goods for goods. So Pakistan would sell them jute and wheat and sugar and some of the commodities and in return, they would get hardware for Romania. So he got the exclusive franchise nobody else had in Pakistan. And even in those days, and I'm talking to 60s and 70s, millions of dollars of hardware flew to Pakistan. And that much went to Romania. And dad got a cut, he got a decent five 10% cut from every transaction.

Andy Follows: 15:20

So he was entrepreneurial. He was building his network spotting opportunities, problems he could help solve, and finding the solutions for people. So to you, in this new school, tell us what about school days? What would your teachers how would they have described you?

Naeem Ghauri: 15:36

I was the black sheep of the family in terms of lazy and not really into schoolwork, academics, and always in trouble. Of all my brothers, I was the most biggest handful, I just was in a hurry, really, to just do something. And even at an early age, you know, just the mundane 9 to 5 in school wasn't really my thing. But you know, you need to have a path to success. And, you know, at that time, I didn't know that. So I wasn't such a good student in terms of grades. But when I got to high school, life changed quite a lot. I decided that I need the grades, I do need to get to university, I do need to get a college. And so for all the brothers, I got the highest grades in my high school, put my mind to it. And mom used to say, well, you don't put enough effort in, but can you still get good grades? I guess in that way, you know, learning was easy for me. And being able to solve problems and so on. From early age or something, I think I got a gift from my dad. And then so high school and then into college, local college, then I went to university

Andy Follows: 16:47

Can I just ask what was it that made the difference for you? Can you recall why you decided I need to get the grades Was there some realisation you had some epiphany or what was going on there,

Naeem Ghauri: 17:00

I could see some of the kids my age, a lot of them doing well in school and then going abroad. For me I wanted to get abroad, just like dad wanted to get out of[place], I wanted to get out of Pakistan, because I felt that my opportunities will be limited. My potential will be limited in Pakistan. So without good grades, without performing I would not be able to get out of Pakistan. So that basically was it because as some of my other friends, you know, who did well in school, and older ones even my brothers, you know, older brothers doing well in school, they all dad sent them abroad for education, some went to US some went to the UK, we had a scholarship going on between Romania because of my dad's connections. So they go to university in Romania. So they're all getting on a plane and go and travelling, and I'm gonna get left behind if I don't get my act together. So yeah, that actually was probably one of the biggest reasons why I decided, yeah, yeah.

Andy Follows: 17:56

Yeah, that realisation might get left behind. So Sorry, I interrupted you explaining the flow. I was just curious. But then so you did High School, and you focus now on getting some good grades? And in terms of direction, working out what direction academically you wanted to go in? When did that start? What did you decide to do?

Naeem Ghauri: 18:15

So dad sent me when I finished high school dad sent me to Romania on a scholarship, because he still felt that I needed some discipline in my life, because, you know, he always felt I had potential, but I'm not really channelling it right and distracted and so on. So I went to Romania for a year, just to get some very basic foundational stuff in petrochemical engineering, because that's what they were really strong in at that time. But that wasn't my thing. And I told that I can't survive in Romania, it was just a very, very brutal environment. I mean, you had to queue for bread queue from milk, sugar, they're just people not treated humanely. So I just felt I needed to get out of there. And then I went to the UK, and I joined a college well known college at Chelsea College of aeronautical engineering. And aeronautics was really at that time, my passion. I love flying, I fascinated by aeroplanes. And I felt that maybe this is the thing I wanted to do. Four years of that, got my degree, came out looking for a job. And then I saw a lot of my colleagues and students who also graduated getting jobs in airlines. And I visited a couple of them and then I saw them wearing overalls. getting their hands dirty, and black on the knees, fixing tires and landing gears. I said, Jesus, this is not fun.

Andy Follows: 19:41

It's not what I signed up.

Naeem Ghauri: 19:46

Exactly. I'm not doing this literally changed my mind. That was the moment of truth. One time. I saw my friend my very close friend who invited me so I can get your job that he was working for British Airways, I can get you a job here, come and visit me and I can put a good word for you. And I saw him, there's Okay, listen, not for me. Good luck. And thank you very much.

Andy Follows: 20:12

So what did you What did you go off and do after that.

Naeem Ghauri: 20:15

So at that time, there's not much opportunity, dad's business was going well, and so on. So I said to him, I want to go to the US. And my older brother Najib, and another brother, they were already there. And I'm gonna go and explore what I can do over there. So with an aeronautical qualification I go to the US, and that's when I discovered IT, for the first time in life, there was a computer school, not even a university in LA called Computer Learning Centre. And they were offering these very short 6 month 9 month diploma courses, I just said, Oh, I'm gonna try this, join it, finish the course, learned how to code. And that's where the journey started in IT, 1982 83 I could code. But those days, I don't know if you remember, we used to use punch cards to code. And there wasn't many screens available, you could just go on a keyboard and type, you have to, you know, write your code on a piece of paper. And then you take the piece of paper into your punch card machine and the holes actually read the code in such a sequence, and then you develop your programme it gets compiled, I'm talking about the very early days of IT and computers. But I was fascinated, because you know, you could make it do things, you have a set of instructions, and you get an outcome. So really, that got me very, very curious. And that journey started. And then, so many years later, I could say that, you know, started as a software engineer. And over time, I've evolved into businesses and so on. But that was really the foundation to where I am today. Yeah.

Andy Follows: 22:00

And it's really helpful to know that in your earliest days, that's what you were doing. So you followed the software development journey, the IT transformation over the years. I'm just picturing you there quite happy not getting your hands dirty at all in this in this job. There's no oil. Oil anywhere. Nice, clean fingernails. Lovely. Right? So this is still your development, this is still you learning. And then first, were you working alongside this or talk to us a little bit about your transition into into earning and working.

Naeem Ghauri: 22:42

So you know, when you have a very basic basic qualification and computer is not by far ubiquitous in business, you know, it was a luxury. I mean, a lot of companies used to send their problems to a company and gather some data back. Nothing was online, obviously. Still, it was all remote. It was very esoteric. So it was hard to find work. I came back to Pakistan from the US. And there was a company it just started from another well known peer in our business, who started an IT company in Pakistan in the 80s, Systems limited, so they gave me an internship as a programmer developer, and put me on a client site to go work with them. And they started me off, I'd sit at that time was 2000 rupees a month, you convert that 2000 rupees a month is about 10 or $20 a month, but that was fantastic. You know, because I had a place to live I then had a place in Lahore, no bills to pay. And I was doing something I really enjoyed doing. So there was just a little bit of pocket money. At that time, that money went a long way, by the way. So yeah, I was around people really, really smart people. They actually had a state of the art mainframe, even at that time. You know, this guy had the vision. He was a very well known industrialist who he set this company up. So he bought the best mainframe from IBM, put it Lahore, and started to build a business. So I started in IT there and kept growing really for two, three years. And that was essentially where I actually made my first paycheck in it.

Andy Follows: 24:33

And thinking back to that, because as you're telling that story Naeem, I'm thinking you've got people in your business, who are probably interns or younger members who've come in, how would you recommend people make the most of it? You've talked about the fact that you're doing something you loved, you're in an organisation you had access to the best technology that was available at the time. It was an exciting place to be. So what would your message be to either your younger self or to the young people in your business now who are at find themselves at the entry level?

Naeem Ghauri: 25:03

Well Andy, internships don't work without mentorship, you take the young person from uni, and you put them in a very hard driven environment of business is hard. And you put them in that environment where there's deadlines and there's economic reality. And people are working against timelines and deadlines. And you put that person in there, and he needs to learn, you know, you positioning them to for failure, if you don't give them a mentor, for every intern that we get in our company, we don't bring anyone in without assigning a mentor to them. So literally, they become their responsibility. Again, this is not something we've learned from big companies. But I know this is happening in BMW and Mercedes and all the large companies, when they someone comes in as an intern, they have to be given a senior person to work with them, otherwise, they don't take them on. That's what we do. And that's what I was able to do. Because even though the company did not assign me a mentor, I was lucky that somebody took me under their wing regardless. So there was a chap. And in a very, very ironic twist, the chap who took me in and mentored me, is a chap who eventually became a CEO of NetSol. Wow. I mean, how crazy is that? So we're talking about 1983 84, I'm in Karachi, working with him on a client site. And fast forward 96 When we started Netsol two years later, we head hunted him and poached him from Coca Cola, he was working for Coca Cola as a senior executive. And I went to him and hired him to come and work for Netsol

Andy Follows: 26:50

we were talking about the power of connections before we started recording. Excellent. So you're just making your way you're not in a family business. At this point. You weren't in a business you'd founded you are in a business that someone it was someone else's business? How did you navigate your early years? What were you doing to help progress.

Naeem Ghauri: 27:11

So there have been a lot of stops and starts and my journey, my IT journey, especially because there were at least two or three times when I came off that path. And did something else. Because of this, again, the DNA from dad really very much like an entrepreneur, experimenting with business ideas and trying to do stuff with that nothing to do with it. And explored those options, those opportunities, made a lot of success out of them, had a few failures, but eventually found my way back into IT.

Andy Follows: 27:48

Can we talk about a few of those can we just give us a flavour of what some of those things were.

Naeem Ghauri: 27:53

So for example, I went to Australia in 1985, I left Systems Limited this company I was working with, went to Australia on a one way ticket, literally. Because again, I liked that. A risk taker explorer, just burn bridges and go and I'm single, really no responsibilities. I said, Why not Australia. So I go to Australia. And I got work as a freelancer programmer, and enough experience now with systems. But within about a year as a freelancer, I had enough capital to go into a property and entertainment business. So I started buying property. And I started buying hotels and restaurants. And I had multiple of them within four to five years, it became a multi million dollar business from nothing, just multiplying, buying and selling property, creating more capital and putting it back into the next venture. So 85 to 90, I was just doing that. And there was no IT in my life at that time. Just pure entrepreneurship, and just built quite a decent sized portfolio. And then we got hit by the I don't know if you recall 91 92 There was a major interest rate crises in Australia, well it was a global one, I think. And interest rates just went up by five 10%, literally within a space of a fortnight. And at that time, because I was leveraged and affected the business. And I basically literally decided it's time to get out. And I sold everything, whatever I could sell, and move move to the UK in 1991.

Andy Follows: 29:34

And when you got to the UK, what did you What was your plan then? Or was there no plan was it? Here's an interesting place to go.

Naeem Ghauri: 29:41

The only connection with the UK was that a lot of family there. It wasn't the kind of random choice. It was the thinking that I have some family there are some connections there. And my ex wife was also born in Britain, Pakistani British, so her parents were there We thought we could get a decent start. So we went to the UK and I decided to go back into IT. And, you know, five years away from it, I forgotten everything forgotten how to code. It was such a contrast to what I was doing. So I actually struggled for the first few months trying to get a job. And every time I got a job to get in and try to deliver, you know, get that discipline back the focus back, when you knew you had success, I mean, I was 25, when I was a multimillionaire. And to then you leave that type of an environment where you are a big decision maker and mover and shaker to come back, get your feet back on the ground, and go work for someone else. And then the work in an environment is very constrained, what you can do, what you can't do, what decisions you can make, I found it really tough,

Andy Follows: 30:53

I can imagine, for

Naeem Ghauri: 30:54

a very, very difficult. So I, you know, struggled. But what I did, though, is that there were times when during the day, I couldn't solve a problem. I was given a coding problem. There were no online, or manuals available. There's only hard copies of books or manuals you had. And I obviously, as somebody who is there, as a developer, you can't be cross checking manuals to know how to code something complicated. So what I used to do was that at night, and it was six o'clock, when everybody left, I stayed in, and I would just pour into those books, literally the entire night, I would just spend the entire night relearning coding almost from scratch. And in the morning, I would just pretend on the first one, and continue. So sometimes that happened to three days in a row. And eventually, I nailed it, like completely nailed it. And I continued, being a freelancer. And that gave me another start, like it did in Australia in terms of some capital accumulation, and so on

Andy Follows: 32:00

Were you very wise, then were you very sort of sensible with the money that you did earn both in Australia initially. And then now in making sure you weren't spending it all.

Naeem Ghauri: 32:08

In Australia, I wasn't in Australia, I was very, very aggressive in expansion, in terms of just, you know, the opportunities there, just go for it. There was no like safety net, it was everything was possible. And that was because you're young, blood is hot. And you think nothing can go wrong. You can conquer the world. So I took risks, and those came to light. But this time around, I was totally different. And I decided that my career, any experiment that I'm going to do in life, as far as business is concerned, is going to be IT related, something I understood, something I was good at. And something is giving me a very decent living at that time. I was still only early 30s. And it was making six figures at that time in 1994 93. So I'm going to I'm going to do this. And this is where when we talk about how NetSol started that path that was evolution, from that freelancing into starting Netsol that two year journey.

Andy Follows: 33:20

And so how do you harboured because you've got this entrepreneurial father, you'd been brought up in that way you've already had your own businesses in Australia was was that always the goal was so the freelancing bit in between was to put some capital aside for the next venture? Was that how you were thinking about this?

Naeem Ghauri: 33:37

Yeah, because I was never going to be a headcount employee. I was never going to be on paye employee. I just felt that there was not me. I'm not saying anything wrong with it, just like it wasn't me. And I just felt restricted, constrained. So I had attempts at doing this, but I quit. And each time I quit, I went back to freelancing. So this is the the time I can share with you. The most profound turning point in my life happened in that period. So I'm working now as just a normal freelance contractor, which you call them in the UK, earning two 300 pounds a day, three 400 pounds a day. And a job came up for contracting at Mercedes Benz in Milton Keynes. That's where they had the Mercedes Benz Finance. So they put a job up for a project manager, but a hands on project manager who could code as well and it paid double of what I was earning, but it was a very, very demanding in terms of qualification and complexity of work and some project management skills as well. So what I decided to do is that I probably still lacked a lot of skill, a lot of knowledge to be going for that job. So well I entered into a night school So there was a two week period in which they were going to interview me. And it was going to be a technical interview. And I already had a job. So I was nine to five at work, and then five to 10, at this night school, just learning all the modern techniques of coding. And you know at that time, there was a lot of new stuff coming out into the business. And those techniques were only for people who had experience. And so in two weeks, every night I just experimented, learn, coded, and try to get myself ready for this interview. So I can never forget this day, I go to Milton Keynes. And that is a chap, I remember very fondly David Gibson, he was the senior project manager, long term Mercedes Benz employee. And he was himself not a techie. So he came to see me in a big boardroom, where they set me up for the interview. And he had about 100 questions in this pad. And so he was going through these questions one by one, and he had the answers against them. Somebody had written the answers for him. You asked this question. And that should be the right answer. He went through 100 questions with me. And these are all RPG. I don't know if you've done a language RPG, which was a very complex business language. very technical. So he is going through this list. And it was like never ending is like me who asks 100 technical questions, and whoever gets them all right? So I go through all the list. And when he finishes, it looks at the answers he says I'll be right back. So he goes and leaves me there for 10 minutes, comes back with this young lady, young woman. And she comes in and she introduced herself. It was Sarah, I still remember. She's I'm the senior project leader, the senior programmer at Mercedes, and I wrote all these questions for David. So I said, Okay, do you have any more questions? she said I have only one question. Only one question. How did you get all of them? Right? All of the answers are correct. Not even one was wrong. And so she was a bit shocked. And I said, you know, this is what I know it's just natural as you ask the question, I have the answer. I thought I got a couple of wrong maybe. But I'm really happy. And she said, Okay, you're hired. She told David, okay, we'll hire the guy you know. So that is really, if you like the inception of the company, where we started.

Andy Follows: 37:39

Right. So that moment in time where you've gone for an opportunity that is so well aligned with who you were what you knew what you could easily answer. Absolute sweet spot there. And so it was from there from doing that project that you realised you should start a business?

Naeem Ghauri: 37:58

What dawned on me Andy was that I went from someone about less than a year ago, reading books at night in an office to learn coding, and then going to night school to learn more about coding, to passing that interview and that test. I mean, that was really for me, the moment where I realised that this is what I am good at. In terms of, you know, it was not only the answers, I think they saw, I was very confident. You know, I knew my stuff. It was not like a parrot who knew the answers. It was just like, literally, I knew it holistically, they could probe me further and I would answer, they can go around the circles go this way or that way, we come to the right answer.

Andy Follows: 38:44

It wasn't, it wasn't just knowledge, you had understanding as well. So you knew how it all fitted together and a level of comfort and confidence with it?

Naeem Ghauri: 38:54

Absolutely. So this is the beginning of the journey that this first initial meeting this interview that led into a job at Mercedes that led into then, I mean, I can walk you through that what happened after this

Andy Follows: 39:11

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Naeem Ghauri: 41:09

So, two years working in Milton Keynes, still as a project manager, making decent money and getting great exposure, I had an amazing, amazing guy there who defacto mentor, even though I he was not my mentor, but he is the CEO or MD of Mercedes was Alexander W eissleder. Rest in peace he passed away in an air crash. If I go back in time, I say who are the two or three people I've learned most from? I say number one would be dad. And I think number two would be Alexander Weissleder. In terms of clarity in terms of what you want to get done, if you want to get things done. It needs a lot of clarity of purpose and objective, the end game, and nobody was better at it than that guy. He was very, very impatient in terms of people management and in terms of patting you on the back. He was none of that. And if you get something done, okay, what's the big deal? Because that's what you're supposed to do. But the point is that, to be able to understand that behind that emotion, anger and all that emotional distress he caused in the meeting room, if you understood the message, and what he's trying to get at, and understand his frustration, because you're not getting the message is what's the key. So what I learned from it from after being humiliated by him a few times in a meeting and feeling deflated and leaving the room. And then thinking through what actually happened. And understanding that, you know, his anger was not coming from the fact that I'm a poor performer, or I'm not competent, his anger is coming from the fact that I didn't get the issue that he wants to resolve. And so people normally what they do is that, you know, if you attack somebody, you become defensive immediately. And they don't get to the real subject matter. You're constantly defending yourself, you're not understanding what is it that the person is trying to get out of you? And you don't know, what are you being shot for? If you knew you were being shot for being a criminal? What do you think you're innocent, you're innocent, why am I getting shot. But the point is that there's something you're not getting. And I actually learned that. And it's helped me so much in life and in business, because I'm able to get that's the thing I've learned, I'm able to get to the point very quickly, without getting too frustrated. And I think that that is something you can have. It's a kind of a hybrid skill, that you you can be a good people manager as well as a problem solver without upsetting too many people who want to resign the next day, because they got told off, you know,

Andy Follows: 43:49

yes, you obviously were clearly in the right place in terms of the technology, but also the people skills you've taken on board as well and enjoyed making those parts of your capability.

Naeem Ghauri: 44:01

Yes, it was a very, very good mix. If you think about what came in the DNA in terms of entrepreneurial skills, risk taking salesmanship and then combine that into a discipline and in terms of knowledge and being able to code in an area in a space which is growing and has been growing ever since. To combine those two, I think is a great recipe for success, people who are enterprising and entrepreneurial.

Andy Follows: 44:33

No it all make sense hearing you tell it. So were you an employee at Mercedes Benz or were you contracting to them?

Naeem Ghauri: 44:42

So there's a very interesting story here, that again, leading up to NetSol, so I'm a contractor hired for three months, extended to six months to one year to two years continuing to extend. Alexander Weissleder says to me, you know, can you go to Thailand to do a project for the company because We're setting up a new finance company in Thailand. And from what you guys have done here, I want you to go run that project for me as a favour, because it's not in his jurisdiction is not in his market, because he's the head of Europe. But he asked me to do a favour for one of his colleagues, Peter Kells. So I go and set up a finance company for Peter, I am the overall programme manager for everything from laying the cables in the office to get buying the hardware, giving them a contract management system and a point of sale system. So that project, about a year and a half later, went live. And in that time, when I was in Thailand, that's when NetSol was set up in Lahore, by two of my brothers, my older brothers. So they just wanted to do IT, because my other brother Saleem, he was in Australia and learned IT. And he came back to Pakistan, he set up a small company. So I called my brother and said, Look, I need three or four people to come and work for me. I'm running up against time. And, you know, we're going to miss the timeline if we if we don't get these extra resources. So this was the first business NetSol ever had in terms of a project. So we gave, we gave them a very small project, not even $100,000, I think less than that. And they sent the people over, we made a team. And we delivered that project on time and on budget. And then NetSol name was now actually known, at least in one country, in the Mercedes Benz world. And from that point, I moved back to the UK, and back under Weissleder. And at that time Andy, Weissleder, had started a very, very large 70 million euro. I mean, for that time in 94 95. That's a big number. So he started a 65 70 million euro project to go into all of the markets using CMS contract management system. Okay, so he asked me to come and just be one member of the team because there's about 200 people working on that project. With Mercedes, I get hired as just one of the junior project managers. In that programme. It used to be called Hercules. So I become member of this very large team, which is undertaking the most ambitious project, because what they wanted to do was standardise the back office for all the finance companies in Europe into one system. So one platform. I mean, those kinds of projects have not worked before, and still haven't worked.

Andy Follows: 47:39

Please tell us about this. Project. Hercules was an early an early one of these then

Naeem Ghauri: 47:45

Exactly, it was the first incarnation iteration of these mega projects. So he got the budget, he got the money from Stuttgart, and got a strong mandate, because his vision was very clear that he wanted to do this because more efficiency, he was CEO of all over Europe, and he wants to obviously make it more profitable and more efficient, more innovative put a new system in, all the all the ambition was all fine. Nothing wrong with that. So I, I'm now one of 200 people. So I'm there just doing my job. And then I heard I hear the guy at the top got fired. One day, he was the project director was a consultant from KPMG. So one day Weissleder calls him in and says you're fired. Okay, fine, we are very worried what's gonna happen to the project, are they're gonna abandon the project, because it wasn't going very well. They were running over budget. They weren't even getting the spec together. And there was a lot of upset people in Europe, who didn't want to change the system. We didn't want to be part of this big programme. And because they all had to pitch in, you know, their share for the 65 70 million. They're saying we don't want this system and we're being forced to do it. So there was no alignment as such, between the project director at the top, and them you know, because the project director is dealing with all the CEOs, right? Imagine the Spanish CEO, the French, the Italian that the German likes, eight different CEOs are part of this team. The project director has to manage to deliver the 70 million euro I mean, it's a recipe in disaster in the making. So anyway, so this guy gets fired. So then they put another guy in. So this guy comes in, and now we're trying to recover. So I have three layers in between. So if you imagine I am a Project Lead, then above me is a team lead, and then there's another one. And then the top is the project director. So I'm like, four, three layers down. So my immediate boss, one day gets upset with me in a meeting, and he calls me in his office, and he gives me the worst earful I've ever had in a professional environment. And very personal also, by the way, very personal. I don't want to tell you where he was from, but he actually said things which ok under normal circumstances, you shouldn't say. So anyway, people overheard him because we were in his office, and we were surrounded by people who could overhear him, you know, his outburst. I leave the room and was very upset. And I mean, I'm three layers down, I don't want to undermine him and go to Weisslader and complain because that's not what I do. So I'm going to grin and bear it. Come to work the next day, come to work the next day and Weissleder and I run into each other. He says he hasn't seen me since I came. I mean, he's the European MD? Right? Was very hardly any opportunity to meet him. He just asked me go, how are you? I know, you came back from Thailand. And now you're in this boat. How are you doing? I'm doing great. This Oh, okay. So he says, Our how's the project doing? So that was one of his habits, right? The, around the coffee machine to ask people what's going on in the project? Every now and then. And you're always scared? Because what are you going to say to the guy with, you know, his ability to say things to you? And if you say something, which he doesn't like, so I, I said, What the hell, I'm gonna tell him what's going on in the project. So obviously, I didn't mention what happened with the guy. I just said, generalise, I said, Look, there's a lot of issues here. You'll see all the red lines, because can't agree on a common spec. Your team structure is completely flawed. And I said to him, Look, I don't know who made the team structure. And he said, Well, you know, the KPMG people give the team structure. I said it doesn't work. There isn't cohesion, there's no alignment, people are fighting against each other, as opposed to fighting together to win. And I think you need to change all that. You said to me, okay, do me a favour, just write me three, four piece paper. And just show me what exactly I need to do this between you and I, I mean, this, this is crazy, right? I'm talking about a guy who runs a multi billion dollar organisation across Europe. And I'm like a 400 pounds a day guy. You know, four, five layers down. He asked me for my opinion, okay, so Okay, fair enough. I go home, I start writing a paper. And three days later, he actually followed it up. I thought he might even forget it, he followed it up from his secretary came to me and said, Well, Mr. Weissleder wants to know, where's my paper? I said, Okay. I said, tell him, it'll be there tomorrow. It'll be ready tomorrow. She said Well, he's going to be travelling very soon. So What time tomorrow? And so we fixed the time. And I say, Okay, now I worked the whole night trying to finish the damn thing. You know, because I hadn't finished by far. I still had a lot of work to do. I said, Oh, my God, I embarrass myself, humiliate myself or get myself fired. If I give him something which he doesn't like. So because really, it's a double edged sword. Next day, I show up in his office, there was no PowerPoint, there was nothing. There was no presentation. I had handwritten notes, typed them up little bit, gave him the five or six sheets. He says walk me through it. We stand up we pouring over this four or five sheets of paper. And he's got a pen and he's making notes as we go. And we spend about 45 minutes going through it. He ask a lot of questions. To clarify. You know what I was always saying? So it's okay. Done. Thank you. You can go now. Okay, I'm not fired. I was thinking am I still here still got a job. Anyways, I go back to my room. And I'm back to my work. And two days pass and hear nothing from him. Third day is Chief. I think they used in Germany, they have these guys who are mostly men, but they are chief executive assistants. Okay, I know you would know from BMW. So as a young man, very, very accomplished. Hubertus van Zastrow is his name. still friends with him? He comes to me and I'm sitting in the middle of the room with 200 other people. He says can I see you privately? So I'd go to his office, and he says we just fired Tony. I said Tony, the guy, the guy at the top, the project director. He said we've just fired Tony. And Weissleder wants to talk to you right now about his role as what role he wants you to take over from Tony. What are you talking about? Are you are we talking about the same job is? He's a project director I am. He said no Weissleder wants you to take this job. Is that a yes or no? I mean, he wants a commitment because he doesn't want to get he wants to make the decision now, because the team is all a bit worried, we have a two firings in the last few weeks. And he wants somebody at the top. And he wants the decision. And I said, Well, I'm not gonna say yes, until I speak to him. Because you're not going to get fired to if I can't get the things done the way I want to what he said, he said, Will you give them a paper, which he likes? And he wants you to do it the same way. I said, No, this is not enough. I want to see him face to face. And I want to see how strong this mandate is. How long he's going to support me, because there's a lot of firefighting going on. A lot of crisis going on, people are not talking to each other. People are not willing to contribute to the project, financially as well, some of the country's refused to pay, I need to get a very, very strong mandate, so that I can go speak to the CEOs, you have to literally go and tell the CEOs what they need to do. I mean, so I mean, you can't as an outsider, I'm a low level consultant. I was not KPMG guy, right. So I'm just a guy and individual sole operator. It's okay. Let me go find if I can get him time, literally within five minutes. Okay, come to the office, we talked. So look Andy I sat with him for an hour. And I said, I mean, this is crazy. First of all, I mean, what do you want me to do? It's a very, very tough project. And it's failing at the moment. And if you want someone to bring it online, I'm going to need some assurances that I'm going to get literally a carte blanche. I want a carte blanche surefire who I hire. What I say in a meeting, if I go and say something in a meeting, which they don't like and a CEO picks up the phone and calls you, you need to have my back. Because they will undermine, they will absolutely undermine and try to destroy me. Because I'm going to say things that they're not going to like. He said you have my word. I call my agent, my recruitment agent who was one who placed me there. I said, there's a contract here. You know, I'm talking 94 2000 pounds a day. He said what are you talking about? Oh, 500 pounds a day to 2000 pounds. And it is I've got a new contract. I'm the head of the whole project, he couldn't believe it. So now he says, I want to talk to Weissleder because I don't believe you got the job. So I had to call. Sorry, Mr. Weissleder, my agent says, you know, he wants to get assured. Because, you know, literally, you'd have to up 10 15,000 pounds before he gets paid. He will pay me first. And he wants to make sure everything is in order. Weissleder said to me what's his phone number? Give me his phone number I was he called me call him at that time, right on the spot and told him What's your problem. He's got the job, right? so give him a new contract. And everything is in order. Anyway, cut the long story short. I go back and half an hour later Weissleder called a meeting all the 200 people together in the big room. And he announced the announce me as the head of project. And actually want everybody when white. Because they made me an enemy for whatever reason. They didn't like my style, didn't like me being aggressive. I had a style I had a way of operating even at the level, at that lower level. I would you know, rattle people, I would say things in meetings that people didn't want to hear. So I didn't have a lot of friends, to put it mildly. And not least John, that guy who, you know, said all those nasty, nasty things to me. So when they when Weissleder announced me as the new project director, the room went very silent. And people tried absorb it and process it. And then Weissleder asked me to stand up and say a few things and as for far as I remember, I said look guys. What's happened in the past is the past. We start a new chapter, I need your support. And just try to rally them up a little bit, you know, because what you don't want to do is drag up the past. But I've got John was wondering what's gonna happen to him now. So I go and I was given a private office now I go into the office. And then guess who comes in the first person knocks on my door is John. And John comes in and he says, Look Naeem, I don't expect you to forgive me. So here's my resignation. I'm resigning and because for what I did, I mean, I can't imagine you would keep me in the team because again, some bad blood here, he was being very honest in that respect, but yet created bad blood. But he wasn't apologising he just said, I think I should resign. And I thought through this, I said there will be another time to fire him. You know if I have to but now is today is not the time because he was actually doing some good work from what his job was, very specific role. And he was also frustrated with some of the people. One thing I've learned andy. And this is a very important lesson that I taught myself. And this was not taught to me by anyone. I don't know how it came to me instinctively, is forgiveness. I think a lot of businesses work on being ruthless, a lot of business leaders are ruthless, they don't take prisoners, they don't give people second chances. So the instinct in me was to give him another chance. And then let him fail himself. If he doesn't take that chance. If I fire him, it will be me being vindictive, for what he said to me, at a personal level, because it had nothing to do with the business. Because the things and the words he used were more personal than business related. He wasn't commenting more on my skills, more on my background, my ethnic background, and all that kind of terrible stuff. So I said to him, Look, John, what you did was very personal. What I'm doing is very much like a business situation. And I want you to go back and do your job, do it well. And let's see, we can reassess the situation. And if you fail, you will fail, because you're not doing a good job, you will not fail, because of what you said to me. However, if you if you did that to another person in the team, and I hear about it, then you're fired. There is no forgiveness in that. Because if you're racist, like your racist comments, and if you are addressing people in such a derogatory way, maybe I may have a little bit of tolerance, but I don't think other people will. And so this is the only one as a final warning. Don't do this. Again. He went and he actually broke up into tears, because he had actually come from South Africa and took his family to UK. And if I fired him then he would struggle to find another job, because his work permit came from Mercedes and he'd have to go get another one for made and so on. And he became andy to be become the strongest ally I had, in terms of whatever successes we had, in that project Hercules

Andy Follows: 1:02:07

that's an incredible story. And I mean, for lots of reasons, not least the elevation of you from the level you were at to project director, the writing your own thoughts, the sharing your thoughts, getting the opportunity, a little bit of luck there, that you bumped into Alexander Weissleder the day that you did, and were able to share your thoughts that led to the paper that led to him saying Naeem's the man for the job. Excellent. And you took it, you you didn't back down at the opportunity, but you grasped it. And we know these projects are doomed to failure . So did Hercules sort of not quite hit the vision?

Naeem Ghauri: 1:02:48

Okay, so this is this is where I feel that if you look at Hercules as success or failure, you know, you can call it a success. And you will call it a failure, but only why you call it success. Because we had seven, seven or eight markets. When I took over, they had only one market Live, which was South Africa, and nothing else. And South Africa could not function with the system they had put in, it was crashing every day. They didn't have the spec, they didn't have the functional coverage. So they were saying they want to go back to the old system. So from the day I took over, we put South Africa back live again. This time functioning, we put Spain live, we put UK live, and we put France live. So out of seven countries. And I held the job for two and a half years, as opposed to the X directors who lasted a month or two months or three months. So I took it from that day on to the point where eventually, because project, even with its successes was getting delayed, and it was getting over budget. And Stuttgart had run out of patience. So unfortunately, they fired Weissleder but before they canned the project the first fired Weissleder, and said you took too much on you spend too much money, you want another 50 million euros, we're not going to give it to you. And we're not going to wait another five years because that's what my plan was. Because for us to fix and get the other four or five countries live. We needed that much more money. And we needed that much more time. And I was very straight about this. And I said to Weissleder If you don't get that we won't succeed. And you have to go to the Management Committee in Stuttgart. And he couldn't get the money or the time. To this day it's still live to this day still live in those four countries, that platform and they've not been able to replace still now and have tried it. So I think you can look at it both ways, you could say, well, we couldn't complete the programme, what we delivered was successful enough for it to be still functioning.

Andy Follows: 1:05:15

Throughout this story Naeem, you're building up more and more technology experience, but also leadership experience. And what I can't help noticing is how much it's the people. So the technology is part of the challenge and the problem, but also getting the alignment of the CEOs, for example, getting them all to lean into the project, and to contribute budget, accept a standard operating model, if you like, be prepared to have functionality that's slightly different from what they had before, these sorts of things that really can cause a project to at least be delayed considerably, if not fail all together, those people topics.

Naeem Ghauri: 1:06:03

if I look at those three and a half years, it was surreal. If I still look back, even with all the successes, we had at NetSol, I think that you have yours was the most unbelievable time in my life in terms of where my career went from where a to b. To give an example. I had like seven assistants working under me, just assistants, just managing meetings and managing decks and Managing Schedules. And, you know, my travel schedules. And, you know, I had CEOs like literally calling, I had to literally learn everything, I had never worked in a corporate environment before that. Never. And not least in at that level. I mean, I was just a coder, and a project manager. So it was I was thrown in the deep end. And to keep my head above water, I had to learn everything. And I had to learn it on my feet. In meetings where I go in sometimes unprepared for some of the craziest questions or outburst or, you know, a topics that come in now you have to answer, you have to give direction to the CEO of the French company, they'll look at, you know, and they say, Well, who are you, you know, to tell us what to do. And but then you end up telling them what to do. And they have to listen to you, when they listen to you if you give them rationale and reason, and you solve their problem. So they learnt to learn all of that. You know, I think that is like an education better than you can get at any any anywhere. You can go to the best university, you will never get that. Kind of learn it all on on the spot.

Andy Follows: 1:07:54

Yeah. So incredible. Two and a half years for you in your learning and career development. What should we go to next?

Naeem Ghauri: 1:08:06

Okay, I think we can now start the NetSol journey. So you can see now that, you know, NetSol had already won the business in Thailand. And now I after Weissleder got fired. I left as well literally right after, because the project was being cancelled. I thought I had made enough of a difference and did what I could do, and needed to move on. And at that time, my brother said to me, why don't you come and work for NetSol. And we agreed on some shareholdings, and so on. And then I went back to Mercedes tried to get business because they were struggling at the time with trying to recover from the project, the Hercules, there were a lot of opportunities for doing some projects for them in Asia. So I actually then became a full time employee of NetSol, a founder, co founder, shareholder, we started with Asia. We didn't think we want to do too much business in Europe at the moment, it was just too soon for comfort, because I just leaving the organisation and then going back wouldn't have been very prudent. So we started doing really well in Asia. And the first big project we got an Asia was from China, and Taiwan. And again, Mercedes, they needed systems, they needed product for back office. And they asked NetSol to develop it. So literally, the story then starts from that point, I think would be in 1999. And we were still a small company, returning over three $4 million a year. And then we there was the dot com boom, in the dot com boom, we were approached by investment bankers who felt with good brand names, that we have a good product, we should actually get listed on NASDAQ which is pretty crazy. And you such a small company with these days you can't get listed when you are such a small business, but those days, they had a lot of appetite for young startups because the VC ecosystem was not that mature at that time. Although they were VCs keyword, we're there. And I think that you were one of the major VCs were already in business, but it wasn't like a network. So most companies, when they started making money, they went straight to the public markets, to raise more funding. So we went public, in 98 99. And we moved to NASDAQ in late 99. And I think that time, was also pretty crazy. Because the dot com boom, was really in, we were at that, literally, we caught the wave, the dot com Wave. And in 2000, between 2000 2001, the stock just rallied. Even though we're a small company, we became a unicorn. At that time. 2000 It was just a very surreal time. We were a small company, but it helped us because, you know, we're able to raise investment and invest back into the business and grow the business infrastructure, hiring the right people, marketing and sales. So that was a golden period, in terms of, you know, having a great profile. Again, we were the first company ever, that went public from Pakistan. And we also were unique in our space. We have we building systems for auto finance, we were able to go public, none of our competitors did that. All these companies, right talk out at that time. They're all private companies. So we've been public now for more than 25 years. It's been an amazing journey. It taught us so many important lessons in governance compliance that taught us in terms of oversight, transparency, and still deliver results. You become more disciplined, you become more deadline orientated because every quarter is a battle. To meet your numbers. I served as a CEO of the company for the first 7 6 7 years. Then because the three founders, we decided we rotate the jobs. So we continued that process. And then only recently about three, four years ago, we started to bring in the next generation and start looking at succession, succession planning. So the next generation is combination of some family and some professional managers. So we at the moment, my main role is mentoring the younger the next layer of management, who eventually will take up the jobs of the CEO, the President, you know, senior managers, and so on. And secondly, what I focused on is strategy, m&a, and innovation.

Andy Follows: 1:13:05

I'm conscious listening to your story that you have, you've learned through experience, you've been at the coalface, if you like, of implementing these solutions, so if you're selling them, the experience that you would have had in the Daimler days at Mercedes Benz Finance, that two and a half year project, there's heaps of experience there to inform your conversations with potential customers and shaping these projects. And I'm sure I don't know how hands on you are, Naeem but is that something that you're able to instil in the in the organisation that, you know, that understanding of the business and that those levels of experience,

Naeem Ghauri: 1:13:46

we're been very fortunate we have some super smart people, combination of people we brought from industry, like people like Eva, there are so many other people working in the US in Europe, and Asia have come from the industry in which we hired other people who have grown organically from the company within the company, who have learned from others. And I had several people shadow me, current head of Global Sales. He was my Deputy for a number of years, when I was head of Global sales. And he's now running sales and he's doing amazing job. So I think it's a combination of, you know, teaching people your own values and your own. The important thing is that you instil some very ethical qualities in the people you're mentoring, because at the end of the day, you know, the business survives and grows, when you're able to go back to the same people you've done business with before, because you run into them all the time, whether it's references or new opportunity. So I think if you have behaved well with your client, that is priceless, and that they never forget. And if you take any shortcuts And if you have not really fulfilled what you promise, what you call business expediency is all kinds of expediency. But in business as well, there's always ways to do stuff, which you know, is not holistic, but not wholesome. But you don't do that. I mean, we have never done that. And so that period is off. So if you just think about this, from that one small Mercedes connection, from Milton Keynes, to the filling the first project with Mercedes 28 years later, Mercedes is our single, single largest client

Andy Follows: 1:15:38

that was going to be a question I was going to ask, how long is your relationship? How long have you maintained that relationship with Mercedes? Because there's no better way to? I guess, the proof is in the pudding, isn't it? If you've managed to maintain the relationship that speaks volumes, you also talked about innovation being one of your areas of responsibility and focus now. And when I first I think, one of the first times I met you was in in London in 2019, when we were working on the fair project with Georg Bauer, and you were introducing us to OTOZ, as a innovative platform, then is that worth talking a little bit, saying a few words about that, and the direction of travel for usership of cars, from your perspective,

Naeem Ghauri: 1:16:30

see what you have to appreciate it understand andy if you're in this space, so if we are in the space of servicing clients who are very much at the centre of gravity of automotive world, when you're dealing with those types of clients, you will see that their needs are bigger than just putting a system in into place they need from you thought leadership they need from you some vision of where do you see industry going? They need from you technical innovation, in terms of where technology is going, where business is going, where the disruptions are going to come from, where the opportunities are going to come from, as a result of those disruptions, are you going to be a casualty of it, or a beneficiary of it, because you can be either. So our job doesn't start or finish with this meaning of contract, and putting a system in order, which is bread and butter and core business. But our job was further than that. And I think any company who doesn't go further than that, in the long run will not succeed. So our job is to constantly understanding and knowing what's coming ahead. And that is a combination of obviously research, market knowledge, networking, you need to be a student of your field. If you want to be a subject matter expert, you need to be a student of your subject matter. And you have to be a consummate student. So what I personally do, I just look at the industry as a whole. And I try to combine that in terms of where the business is going, what role will technology play in the mix? Beca use one will not work without the other anymore, when you can build products and finance products and so on. Where you not did not have that much dependency on tech. But now we are each year or even sometimes, yes, there's so many new incremental innovations, and breakthrough innovations, and sometimes totally unexpected developments in tech, that, you know, it's hard sometimes to keep pace with it. And together with disruptions that are happening in the automotive industry. I mean, think about this andy how many different things are breaking at the same time. It is unprecedented. I mean car ownership, you can start with that. Okay, you can you can go on to the internal combustion, EVs, you can go into financial products, you can go into the demographics, the younger people, you know, who wants to own a car, I mean, of my four children, none of them have a car, they're grown up, they don't want to have the responsibility. So I think you know, for a business leader in our space, you really need to have a lot of turf. So, how I think I can do my job effectively is to first of all understand the changes and understand that how and when these changes will actually have an impact. Where is the tipping point? You know, when we talk about subscriptions, for example, very, very hot topic for a long time. Now, but when Does it really happen? Have we hit the inflection point or not? I don't think we have a we know anywhere close. So when companies started, you know, a lot of fanfare carshare. I mean, are we there yet? And there's so many other paradigms, which are ready for disruption. But there's not really at the moment, the velocity is not there. That tomorrow, you say the whole world has changed. But we can see it changing though. And I think combined with technology, it could be pretty seismic shift. And the companies who are prepared for the time and not struggling to come up with products and technology, I think they're gonna get left behind. Good example with OTOZ is we started OTOZ with a car share platform in Thailand. So we launched OTOZ for the four years ago in Thailand, and is a peer to peer car share, literally asset light. So that platform, oh, no cars, it was just, you know, individual consumers putting their cars on line, and other people using those cars for the weekend. And for the weekdays, it's just like a car rental. But peer to peer is cheaper, more efficient, and it's all driven by apps. But then that use case became digital retail, and that became subscription. So all within OTOZ we have three use cases now. And as a world, the best use case we have seen so far in OTOZ, is digital retail. It has traction, it has real usage, it has produced tangible results, in terms of sales and leads for the dealers that we are servicing in the US, we servicing more than 60 70 dealers, and they have sold 1000s of cars, I believe the stats I get using the OTOZ digital retail platform. So that's another sales channel that didn't have. And it's not completely frictionless or touchless. But it's really close to it. Because you can literally buy a car sitting at home, and the dealer can deliver it to you whether you pay cash, you can completely finance it. So all through your laptop. So I think that's a new, I don't think anybody's doing this in the US at the moment, complete lifecycle of buying the car, including financing, I think we're the only platform that can do e contracts as well, all the documentation, credit checks, from initiating finding a car to having a car delivered to you at your doorstep. So that's really exciting for us. And that didn't come easy. We put millions of dollars of investment into the technology, and r&d and learning what the industry needs. And it's evolving. And we are now currently working with a number of clients who are investigating the platform. And I think there's now a drive. I think digital retail for me is a very much an early inflection point in the US, at least in Europe, before subscription. And before carshare. I think this is one segment that is probably gonna grow the fastest. Because of the amount of interest we're getting.

Andy Follows: 1:23:25

Interesting to hear that with your touch points that you have Naeem. So congratulations on building that. And it's interesting how it's evolved over the last few years. And you know, your description of your role, you're scanning the horizon, you're looking for all of these things that are breaking, you're looking across all of these areas that are being broken at the moment, you're putting yourself in the shoes of the client and thinking what what is happening? What do these clients need to be? What problems are they going to have to solve? And how can we use technology to help them? How can we be on the front foot really, and give them solutions that will allow them to navigate this uncertain future and come out being a beneficiary of it and not a casualty of it? So thanks for that. Is there anything I haven't asked you where I've missed an opportunity to uncover something from your journey that you'd like to share?

Naeem Ghauri: 1:24:13

I think what we are really excited about is going forward because we already at this point in our journey, where we have gone to market with the digital retail in OTOZ. But I think what we are doing in addition to that we are going investing heavily into AI trying to find the best use cases for AI within our industry. Because there are n number of opportunities to innovate within AI and also to unlock the mystery within AI. Because there's a lot of confusion, to be honest on where this is heading. And there's a lot of excitement. There's a lot of money going after it. So you know we have to from all of this glean what is relevant for our industry. I think any any company Who's not investing in that is also not going to stay relevant. Because AI is a reality now, and AI is not new one anyway, you know, 10 15 years ago, Uber, when they were doing dynamic pricing, you know, they were already building these algorithms, you know, adjusting price to go to demand and supply. So it's just the beginning through another iteration of it. But the speed is faster, and sometimes scary. But I think they will be enough firewalls to protect humanity. Because I think at the end of the day, this technology has to touch us in a positive way, not a negative way. So that is happening. I think that's the job of regulators and, you know, big companies that are great to consumers and so on. In our business, in a b2b environment, we are trying to unlock opportunities. How can we benefit our clients with additional retail, and subscriptions and higher purchase finance, all the products or portfolios that we have on our various platforms, we want to make sure we continue to innovate in AI at the moment is an area where we invested quite heavily

Andy Follows: 1:26:04

Understood. Thank you very much, then Naeem, it's been a pleasure to get to know you know your story. I feel I understand a lot more after that conversation. And congratulations on the journey. And thanks very much for sharing it with me and our listeners.

Naeem Ghauri: 1:26:22

Thank you, Andy, for your time. And thank you for having me. It was wonderful sharing. A lot of these old stories came back. Nobody's probed me that deeply before in a long time. And I think a lot of this, my wife will hear and say you haven't told me this story before.

Andy Follows: 1:26:38

That is what happens. And that is why I love having these conversations. It's great when you're hearing a story, if not for the first time you're hearing it for the first time in a long time. Absolutely. So thank you very much.

Naeem Ghauri: 1:26:53

Pleasure.

Andy Follows: 1:26:58

You've been listening to CAREER-VIEW MIRROR with me, Andy Follows depending on your unique life experience, where you find yourself right now and your personal goals, you'll have your own takeaways from Naeem's story. Some elements that stood out for me were his entrepreneurial father who set them up for success by moving to Lahore. Naeem realising that if he didn't get the grades, it will be harder to find opportunities outside of Pakistan, his interest in aeronautical engineering that led him to study in the UK. And then the realisation that he didn't want to get his hands dirty, becoming involved in IT and coding at an early stage and having hands on experience having success and failure in property development in Australia, moving to the UK and getting a contracting role at Mercedes Benz Financial Services bumping into Alexander Weissleder and telling him the truth about how the project was going, and how that led to him writing a paper and being put in charge of the project, joining NetSol and building that business from its original contract with Daimler to its current state and still having that relationship with Daimler after 28 years, describing their role now to be thought leaders predicting the needs of their clients and providing the technology to help them navigate this constantly changing environment. If you'd like to connect with Naeem, we'll put his contact details in the show notes to this episode. If you enjoy listening to my guest stories, please could you do me a favour and share an episode with someone you lead parent or mentor or perhaps a friend of yours who you think would also enjoy listening? Thank you tonight for joining me for our conversation. Thank you to our sponsors for this episode ASKE Consulting and Aquilae and thank you to the CAREER-VIEW MIRROR team without whom we would not be able to share our guests life and career stores. And above all, thank you to you for listening.