Jane Cusdin-Harris: living her values of creativity, curiosity and justice advocating for women's advancement in the workplace.

In this episode we are celebrating the career to date of Jane Cusdin-Harris.

Jane is the founder of Cusdin Consulting, a company with the purpose of empowering businesses and organisations to attract, nurture, and retain female talent throughout their professional journeys.

During a 24-year career in the automotive industry, Jane has worked in commercial transformation programmes, gaining invaluable insights while navigating the complexities of a predominantly male-dominated sector.

Her journey began at automotive tech supplier NAVTEQ where she developed her expertise, later advancing within Jaguar Land Rover.

Deeply motivated by her core values of curiosity, justice, and creativity, Jane discovered her true calling: advocating for women's advancement in the workplace.

Jane's expertise lies in cultivating inclusive communities, normalising challenging conversations, and inspiring action for meaningful change that benefits everyone.

Her unwavering energy, empathy, and commitment to fostering equality have seen her recognised as an Inspirational Automotive Woman by the Automotive 30% Club and listed in the INvolve Heroes top 100 Future Leaders list on two occasions.

Beyond her professional life, Jane wears the hat of chief ‘magic maker’ for her family at home in Warwickshire and is a keen runner. Drawing inspiration from the diverse generations around her, she finds solace and perspective when capturing miles on the open road.

As Jane embarks on this new chapter, she remains focused and motivated in her mission to help create a more inclusive, equitable and successful future for all.

In our conversation we talk about her childhood and the confidence and independence she developed to become a solo traveller. Jane shares her early dreams to become a photo journalist and how instead she found herself entering the world of navigation technology.

We get to hear how her values influenced her professional behaviour, her attempts to fit in to a male dominated environment and her eventual decision to focus her attention on gender equality.

This really was a wonderful conversation and I'm proud to share Jane's story and passion with you. I look forward to hearing what resonates with you.

If you're listening for the first time, hello, I'm Andy Follows. I'm a trusted advisor to senior leaders in the automotive industry. I work alongside them and their teams to enable Fulfilling Performance. If you'd like to know more about Fulfilling Performance, check out: Release the handbrake! - The Fulfilling Performance Hub on Substack.

Connect with Jane
LinkedIn: Jane Cusdin-Harris

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Email: cvm@aquilae.co.uk

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Episode recorded on 12 April, 2024.

Transcript

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 0:00

He saw what was happening. And he said, I'm not. I'm not happy with this. Leave it with me. And then I was in Germany. I can remember the call very vividly. He rang me up and he said, Jane, what do you know about e commerce? And I said, I will know everything that you need me to know about e commerce by Monday. He said, great, you've got a job. Come work with me.

Aquilae: 0:18

Welcome to CAREER-VIEW MIRROR, the automotive podcast that goes behind the scenes with key players in the industry looking back over their careers to share insights to help you with your own journey. Here's your host, Andy Follows

Andy Follows: 0:50

Hello, listeners, Andy here. Thank you for tuning in. We appreciate that you do. We're also very grateful for our guests who generously joined me to create these episodes so that we can celebrate their careers, listen to their stories, and learn from their experiences. In this episode, we're celebrating the career to date of Jane Cusdin-Harris, Jane is the founder of Cusdin Consulting a company with the purpose of empowering businesses and organisations to attract nurture and retain female talent throughout their professional journeys. During a 24 year career in the automotive industry, Jane has worked in commercial transformation programmes gaining invaluable insights while navigating the complexities of a predominantly male dominated sector. Her journey began at automotive tech supplier Navtech where she developed her expertise later advancing within Jaguar Land Rover. Deeply motivated by her core values of curiosity, justice and creativity, Jane discovered her true calling advocating for women's advancement in the workplace. Jane's expertise lies in cultivating inclusive communities, normalising challenging conversations, and inspiring action for meaningful change that benefits everyone. Her unwavering energy, empathy and commitment to fostering equality have seen her recognised as an inspirational automotive woman by the Automotive 30% Club and listed in the Involve Heroes top 100 Future Leaders list on two occasions. Beyond her professional life, Jane wears the hat of Chief magic maker for her family at home in Warwickshire and is a keen runner. Drawing inspiration from the diverse generations around her, she finds solace and perspective when capturing miles on the open road. As Jane embarks on this new chapter, she remains focused and motivated in her mission to help create a more inclusive, equitable and successful future for all. In our conversation, we talk about her childhood and the confidence and independence she developed to become a solo traveller. Jane shares her early dreams to become a photo journalist and how instead she found herself entering the world of navigation technology, we get to hear how her values influenced her professional behaviour, her attempts to fit into a male dominated environment and her eventual decision to focus her attention on gender equality. This really was a wonderful conversation, and I'm proud to share Jane's story and obvious passion. I look forward to hearing what resonates with you. If you're listening for the first time. Hello, I'm Andy Follows, I'm a trusted adviser to senior leaders in the automotive industry. I work alongside them and their teams to enable Fulfilling Performance. If you'd like to know more about Fulfilling Performance, you can sign up for our weekly newsletter. In it you'll find easily digestible ideas on how to increase levels of performance and fulfilment for yourself, and those you lead and care about. Go to Andyfollows.substack.com, or use the link in the show notes to this episode. Hello, Jane, and welcome. Where are you coming to us from today?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 3:58

Hello Andy. It's great to be here today. You're finding me in my home office in the beautiful Leamington Spa in Warwickshire.

Andy Follows: 4:04

Oh that is lovely. I know that a little bit. My son lived there for a year. So as I asked all my guests Where did your journey start?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 4:13

Well, I was born in Coventry, so not too far away. And I lived there until my 30s and my family still live there. So I'm very often back in the in the mighty city.

Andy Follows: 4:24

Right and it's the heart of certainly a heart of the British automotive scene, Warwickshire and and that area

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 4:31

very much so

Andy Follows: 4:32

do you mind if I ask you a little bit about growing up and your childhood?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 4:37

Yes. So I was born in Coventry. And my parents well they separated when I was about five years old. So I was very young when the when the family broke and I guess the The unusual thing there is that my sister and I were split very early. And I stayed with my mom and my sister went to live with my dad and we both grew up in very different parenting styles. My mom was very liberal, very laissez faire. And my dad was very structured and a bit more strict. So as we come together, when I do go back to Coventry, we are very different, like human beings, even though we were siblings.

Andy Follows: 5:16

That's really interesting. And do you remember much about that time? Did you have a choice in whether you went with mum or dad?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 5:23

Yeah, we have both had a choice but I don't know anything about that really, it's a long time ago.

Andy Follows: 5:29

How has it affected you d o you think having that different upbringing or a split not having your dad around at the time?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 5:37

Yeah, I think I think actually parenting in the 80s is very different or was very different. I reflected on this thinking about the kind of parent that I am, you know, to my daughters. And I think that very hands off very liberal laissez faire kind of structure that I was in a household that I was brought up in is very different to the household that I bring my daughters up in, it's a different era, they have different opportunities. And also the household I was brought up in was very working class, my mom, she had many jobs as I was growing up, you know, sometimes she'd have up to four jobs at a time just cleaning or being a pharmacy technician or assistant at school or working in a pub. And it was it's quite basic living, really, and nothing excessive, and I would spend a lot of time with my grandparents as she worked. For example, She didn't have a car, we didn't have a car. So my mom would take me everywhere on the back of her motorbike. So which did you know, we had quite an interesting, I had quite an interesting, younger childhood with my mom, and she knew she did what she needed to do to keep the household and keep me. But thing is nothing had to be perfect. And that's a difference I kind of realised that my parenting style is you know, it's a very different world that I bring my daughters into.

Andy Follows: 7:00

So are you stricter? You say it was more laissez faire when you growing up? Do you think you've got more structure and more discipline in your household than now,

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 7:08

I think I'm just around more, I think I am interested in the day to day and I have that time to invest in understanding that because I don't have to work out where money's coming from.

Andy Follows: 7:22

Yeah and you don't have four jobs to do. But in terms of seeing, you know, seeing an adult doing some work, the work you were exposed to, it sounds like you saw your mom working pretty hard, and doing what needed to be done to make ends meet.

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 7:36

Yeah, she taught me to be very independent. I think with that came learning to be very resilient and independent from an early age and making decisions from an early age. I think I wanted to earn my own money from an early age. So I got a paper round when I was 15. And then as soon as I was 16, I think I went into Woolworths on my birthday and asked for a job. So I got a Saturday job in Woolworths and, you know, I enjoyed starting to earn my own money from that young age and, you know, and spending it on things that I wanted to spend my money on, and I was very proud of, you know, taking home that two pound 12 an hour I think I earned in a brown paper envelope at the end of the week. And yeah, I think she taught me a lot about being independent and understanding the value of money as well.

Andy Follows: 8:27

Right. And would you have been coming home to an empty house after school then with no siblings and Mum Mum at work?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 8:33

Yeah, quite often or as I say I'd be at my grandparents. So yes, it was. I suppose it was we lived in us as we lived in a city as well, it was, it was quite hard to even have that community feel around us either. So yeah, it sometimes gets quite lonely.

Andy Follows: 8:48

Yeah. And as you say, learning independence and resilience and what would your teachers how would your teachers have described you?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 8:55

I think my teachers would have described me as a good girl. I didn't really stand out too much at the school. I went to a church school in Coventry and had really good reputation. It was two bus rides away, so it wasn't in the local catchment. And I worked hard at school, not particularly academic, but I enjoyed school, I'd do my homework, I was friends with everybody. I just try not to stand out too much. But one thing I really did have at school, which I think about a lot, it guided me was some really great friendships, some very strong friendships with two girls. We went through school together, and it kept me focused and it kept me happy to have those people and and I enjoyed the humanities as well the subjects of humanities, I enjoyed geography. I enjoyed a religious studies or RE because I really enjoyed understanding people, and I loved art as well.

Andy Follows: 9:53

It does sound like those friendships were invaluable for you for giving some stability and sounds like you had happy quite happy days at school

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 10:03

Yeah, outside of school, I also really enjoyed the Girl Guides. So through the 80s, and the 90s, I was very involved in in the Girl Guides. And the one thing there is another very strong female role model that was the leader there Girl Guide group, and she was very much of this woman can do anything attitude, you know, to her, she had a motto, which was look upon it as a challenge. And I think it's quite, it's sometimes you like, Oh, don't tell me don't tell me to look upon it as challenge, it's too hard. But actually, sometimes it pops into my head still. And, and you can use that challenge that that motto look upon it as a challenge, and I have done for many years. So I think those things around me, you know, seeing my mom working hard, you know, not being particularly close to my mom, because she is she had to do those jobs to earn the money to keep our household. But then having this these great friendships, which really grounded me and kept me focusing in school, and then this great role model, and being in a girl only space where I could learn about how to do that independence and know about being away from home, you know, Girl Guides, obviously, camping, lots of community work and giving back and raising money for charities and gaining those skills and trying so many different things. You know you're having fun and building those further friendships. And I, you know, I really feel that that gave me a good foundation. You know, just think about it now.

Andy Follows: 11:34

That's the word, yeah, foundation. I was thinking it sounds very foundational.

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 11:39

Yeah, I think I mean, I know in the 80s and 90s. It the Girlguiding group, it could be a bit, you know, women's institution, I suppose. But I had a really strong sense of belonging there. And I think it was a really good space for me to progress, because that is also the offering of that, and a lot of teamwork. So, yeah, I enjoyed that area of my life.

Andy Follows: 12:00

So friendships and a sense of belonging to the guides, fundamentals, really that were helping, and the resilience and independence you were building from an early age and the desire to earn your own money. It's all coming together. And were you starting to or at what point did you start to have ideas about what you might like to do after school and what you might want to go on to do?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 12:24

Well, I mentioned, I really liked the humanities. And I really liked art. And I was so indecisive, on which avenue to go to. So I did my A levels. And I took both of those subjects. And then I just didn't know, I think looking back, it was hard to get that understanding of what university was going to be like I was just on the path of university, my parents didn't go to university, but my sister was going to university and my friends around me were going to university. So I was like, Oh, I'm gonna go to university as well. But what to do at university or what that life would look like what that decision really meant when I was choosing, I don't think I really had a very clear vision. And I didn't have that advice or the people around me that were able to give me that advice. So I kind of took my own leap of the decision that I would take a year out. So I applied for Hull, Hull University to do geography. And I chose Hull even though I wanted to go to a London University, but Hull was cheaper. I was in thinking about the money that was available. And also, when I went to visit Hull there were people in T shirts that said, it's never dull in Hull. So I was like, well, that sold me as well. Two things Hull can offer me so I um I believed that it would never be dull in Hull and put in the application. And then I deferred for a year and I went to Coventry University and did an Art Foundation. And this was really me trying to decide what path to take, you know, do I go through art to art or do geography. And at the end of that year, it was geography I decided to do so.

Andy Follows: 14:11

I love the idea that you want just the thought that's gone into that to, you know, not sure which to do. So I'll defer for a year. And that way I can sample Art Foundation. There's so much we don't know until we've actually tried it. This is what I find fascinating and bit of a challenge for all young people, you know, ourselves included when we were coming up then is how to learn enough about things to be able to make a decision. So what did you learn in your year of Art Foundation that meant geography was the way to go.

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 14:43

I came out of the course feeling still really not satisfied. I felt that I could have done more but I wasn't it was a the way that the course was structured you had to be very motivated to do your own thing. And it wasn't that I wasn't motivated, but I wanted to See that structure, I wanted those people to teach me I wanted to learn, and not always, you know, teach myself I wanted to have that kind of learned content. And it's a funny thing to think that I've got this academic brain, but I'm also very artistic. And I was the brain was kind of competing with each other. But the Yeah, the the academic brain won in the end. And, and it was, I remember the deliberation, it was tough. But I thought, well, I can still do geography. And I can do the pieces of art that I love. Still, it's not going to stop. I can do that in another sense and of the way.

Andy Follows: 15:42

Yeah, well, you'd been and you'd tried, and you'd got a bit more experience about what it was like, so you better place to make that decision. And tell me about Hull then, was it ever dull?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 15:54

Well, that's a good question. So yeah, three years there as an undergraduate and I loved it, it was very different, again, to be away from home. And I went, when I left to go to Hull, I didn't go home. Again. I used the holidays to travel. So I did in my first year, in the summer holidays, I went to America, and I worked in America for the for the three months, I got the I got a visa, and I worked for a couple of months. And then I travelled across America. And then in my second year, I did the same for Canada, I worked in the Skydome of the Hard Rock Cafe for the summer. And then I got on a train and travelled across Canada. So I had this great, you know, experience of a freedom and I think, you know, university gave me that like, Okay, I'm out of Coventry, I've got all this freedom, and then look at this great world, geography probably gave me that view as well, you know, look at this great world to go and explore and just be part of,

Andy Follows: 16:58

yeah, not not everybody does that. Is there anything else that you think gave you that wanderlust or travel, sense of adventure, other than the geography which is in its own, you know, on its own sufficient, really,

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 17:11

I think also the people, you meet so many different people when you're in an environment like that, and I enjoyed understanding people and the courses that I chose when I did my geography, so I did a Bachelor of Arts. So I really enjoyed that behaviour of people, their social structures, and their belief systems and institutions. And I think, being amongst those people, I'm a great observer, you know, I really do enjoy understanding different cultures. And that's probably gave me my sense of wanting to go and explore more and actually immerse myself in those different cultures, okay, you know, American culture and, and Canadian culture of perhaps isn't too far away. But, you know, later on in my life, I would go to the countries and, and it properly understand what was happening. And Sustainable Development became something that was close to my heart. And that was what I was really passionate about and interested in.

Andy Follows: 18:08

Where would some of the places be that you had some great experiences outside of the US and Canada.

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 18:14

So after university, I travelled as I travelled around the world, took 14 months, and I spent a lot of time in Southeast Asia, and also then in Australia, and New Zealand did a bit of the usual route that was done back then, you know, through Asia, and then Australia and back through the Americas. But I've also, since that time, have travelled in India, and in China and Japan, as well.

Andy Follows: 18:41

Okay, so there's lots to go out then. So before I don't want to leave university yet. And I also want to ask, for example, when you went to the US, what sort of jobs were you doing?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 18:50

So I worked in New Jersey on a boardwalk, and I was, I was working in one of those old time photo booths, you know, where you dress up in corsets and fishnet tights and have a photograph taken. I was working in one of those, I was also a cleaner, and I was also a terrible, terrible waitress. So I had three jobs, just to earn this money.

Andy Follows: 19:11

So what made you a terrible waitress I have to ask?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 19:15

Oh because I just kept giving people the wrong food. And then before I could go and rescue it off the table, they'd go oh, look for something free and they'd tuck in and, and the woman that I worked for would deduct it from my salary. So in the end, I'd end up owing her money. So you know, my tips were reasonable because people thought I was giving them good, you know, giving them away food, but yeah, it didn't work out so well, for me.

Andy Follows: 19:40

All part of finding out where our strengths are. And in Canada. What did you do in Canada?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 19:44

In Canada I was a hostess at the Hard Rock Cafe. I loved it.

Andy Follows: 19:48

Ah you said you worked in the Skydome

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 19:50

Great friendships built in that summer, probably the best summer of my life. I had such a great time. And then yeah, just what I really loved about both of those trips was the fact that you could explore how big the world was because I did land travel. So ever since you know, we travel a lot by air but sitting on a train, and travelling the whole length of America one time, and then the whole length of Canada another time, getting off, of course, every now and then, because that would be too much sitting on a train. But all that time, but actually experiencing how long it takes to get across a country. Just fascinating. It's given me a massive understanding of the world.

Andy Follows: 20:33

Yeah, a more informed perspective, travelling by land,

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 20:37

and by myself as well. So I never went, I didn't go with anybody, I would go on my own, which probably seems a bit weird, but I don't ever mind. Because you meet lots of people along the way, and have really great conversations. And I think if you travel with somebody, and I have travelled with people, obviously, but those two in those two occasions, but when you want to talk to somebody, you have to, you know, start that conversation. And it is amazing. Listening, and those skills I think you get when you you do talk to strangers a lot and you form bonds and understanding and, you know, some of those conversations I'll I'll will remember now, I don't remember the face of the person, but I can remember something significant that they said that made me think or feel something, or that I've resonated to since and I yeah, I've not thought about this since so this is this is very nice to to reminisce. But yeah, travelling on my own and getting that, you know, understanding across the distance of the of the land and looking and seeing so much as you go.

Andy Follows: 21:39

Yeah, no, that sounds wonderful. And I think not everyone would want to travel on their own, either. So are you comfortable to walk into a restaurant and sit in, you know, Table for one,

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 21:51

I am, and I'm also the person that will talk to anybody. Or bring up you know, I will, I will see somebody they don't even have to speak the same language, but I will always start with a smile, I will always be the person that has something nice to say or even a hello. My daughter's think it's very strange, at times, but it's a humanity, it's the it's the heart in me that I can see. I have that confidence to start a conversation with anybody and some people might not. But if I can go first and, and open that door, then it's great, what you can learn and, and what insights you can get into to people?

Andy Follows: 22:30

Yeah, it sounds like you have a genuine curiosity for people. And that certainly a large part of your incentive or motivation to travel was to meet people and to observe people and to see different cultures, not necessarily just the geography and the land, not the physical geography and the places but to understand the people around the world. Fabulous. And then going through university, did you start to have any ideas about what you'd like to do job wise? Or were you thinking I'm going to do this, and then I'm going to do even more travelling? Well,

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 23:00

yes, I thought, God, you know, what I what I can bring all together is this love of art. So photography was my thing. And this my passion for sustainable development. And remember this, these are the days, I have two stepchildren as well, who are just going through university or finished University recently. And I do like to just throw the trump card in that, you know, I did my degree without the internet, you know, I hand wrote my essays, and they're like, What, but I, what I loved was magazines, and the National Geographic was one that I would always subscribe to. And I thought, you know, what I want to do is I want to share with the world, this information about, you know, the plight of sustainability and sustainable development in these countries, and write about it and take photographs, I was like, I'm going to be a photo journalist. That's what I'm going to do. So that's what I thought, you know, I was like, pretty much set up because I can bring my geography and my art together in this beautiful, like, purposeful sense. And that's what I kind of aspire to do, you know, took my camera off around Australia and around the world and took photographs, you know, on film. You know, so many reels. And yeah, that's was, you know, quite quite excited about that.

Andy Follows: 24:19

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So when you left university and travelled that in your mind, you were becoming a photo journalist at that point. Yes. Yes, absolutely. And that's independent, you weren't engaged to any organisation. You were going to go out there, take your photographs, tell your stories, and hopefully sell them presumably.

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 24:40

Yeah, well, I didn't know how to do that yet. But I just you know, I was quite set on that being my career because I felt that then I would have like the purpose and the creative element, it spoke a lot to my values. And I think if I look back and again and reflect you know my values were quite set there, you know, my values are very much around curiosity around learning around justice. And yeah, right. If I think back, they were pretty much they were my foundation, then you know, I also bring in well being as well think in that era when I was in my 20s Well, being was just making sure I had good fun, you know, and I did that at university and other times. But yeah, it's interesting to reflect and really know that your values are, they're really there from a very early age.

Andy Follows: 25:27

It is interesting. So what happened then because I know you're not a photo journalist are you.

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 25:33

I know I'm not and I never have been so here's the twist. So I got home from University and the adults around me put an advert in front of me from the Coventry evening telegraph, there we go, Coventry evening telegraph, an advert for a geographic researcher. So we're now in the year 2000. And I was told what else you going to do with the geography degree, you better apply for this, you need to get a job now you've, you've done all university, you've done all your travel, time to get a job. I was like, okay, okay, so I applied, applied for the job, and I got it. There, I was in, you know, I, global tech company. So I joined on the 14th of February 2000. And I smile, because I always remember it because it's Valentine's Day. And I'm like, Okay, so my love for corporate has just began. I'm in a big global tech company.

Andy Follows: 26:30

And did you put up a fight? Did you think hang on a minute family? You're not appreciating? I'm a photo journalist? No. Or did you think actually, you might have a point here, and this does look quite interesting.

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 26:42

I think that, you know, the questions were, you know, what, what else are you going to do? Do you want to be a teacher? I was like, No, I want to be a photo journalist. How are you going to do that? I don't know. But why don't you just apply? I was like okay, I think it was hard to I didn't have any role models around me and also didn't have a lot of space or way to find out the information. You know, now, it would be so easy. You could just Google it, can't you how to be a photojournalist, you know, how to be at Build your network, how to get your contacts. There, I was back from travelling, you know, no real degree in like writing or English or journalism. No real qualification in photography it was okay. So how do I do this? And I think, before I even got the chance to work out how to do it. I was distracted. And I thought, well, maybe I'll just start with this job. And then I'll work my way into the thing that I want to do.

Andy Follows: 27:35

So at least it was in geography and global. How was it?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 27:40

So the company was Navtech or Navigation Technologies. And believe it or not, I spent the next 18 years in that company. Wow. So can't have been too bad, I suppose.

Andy Follows: 27:52

So crushed.

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 27:53

Yeah, that was it. I was in, I was in until I was out. But I was in and I moved to many different roles. And I guess I grew up in that company. Now I started out it was in operations. So I started out mapping the navigation map. Again, this is 2000. So Navtech are the biggest provider of navigation maps to automotive OEMs. So the map that we have all in our cars now, and we also taken for granted, that wasn't even completed, the European map database wasn't even completed. So I was brought in to help complete that mapping. So travel was one big thing that kind of kept me there. So I had a lot of opportunities that around the UK, I would travel, but also, I did a big project for BMW in South Africa. So I wasn't there very long before I was shipped out to South Africa. And I did the mapping of Durban. And that was really interesting. Because it was, it was quite dangerous. And it was a very different culture, South Africa, very difficult to sort of understand. And I had a driver that would sit with me, and he would help us navigate away from dangerous townships. But there was a lot of rules, I think, in South Africa that I wasn't aware of just to keep yourself safe. But I loved it. I was there for three months, and we mapped the area.

Andy Follows: 29:15

So what did that involve the actual mapping part? What we How did you do that?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 29:20

So it was early days of GPS, so we'd have an antenna on the roof, and that was linked to a laptop. It was in the UK. The map was digitised from the Ordnance Survey. So we had the basic framework, but then you had to drive and capture all the road attributions. So this is everything that helps you navigate, you don't realise how many attributes are actually sat underneath every single piece of those roads, everything like speed limits, road junctions, but it's got speed bumps on it a road name, oh, gosh, there's hundreds and hundreds of attributes that you have to then apply to that road segment. Yeah, and I quickly kind of I enjoyed the travel, and I enjoyed the collection of the data because I was also you know, as around the UK, but I also did a lot of work in Ireland. So again, I was travelling very often to Ireland to map that database, I had the responsibility of Londonderry, which I've remembered my Durban and my South Africa, survival tips in that city as well. But I kind of realised that although I really enjoyed the travel, and that that sort of data collection, the other part of the job was putting that data back into the master database. And although I didn't hate it, I kind of quickly realised I'm not a data driven type person. I'm a people person, I stayed in that role for about three years. And in that role, I asked if if they would sponsor me to do a marketing postgraduate diploma with a CIM. And as I was always put my hand up to do other things, you know, I didn't always, you know, put my hand up to organise the team meeting, organise some training or do some extra training. They said, Yeah, okay. Yeah, well sponsor you will you go ahead and you do this Postgraduate Diploma in marketing. So I did that as well as the travel and the job. And you know, and then I did part time study, and it was fine, because I didn't have a family. And although it was hard to juggle all those things, it was great. And I've really enjoyed extending my knowledge and going into something it was a bit more of a specialism, you know, marketing. And I thought, okay, here we go. You know, I think my desires of a photo journalist was well sort of, in my past, I think I just thought, you know, that's not going to happen now. So let's see what else I can do in this world.

Andy Follows: 31:35

Yeah. And did you find, though, that you were able to get fulfilment from what you were doing, and you found ways to play to your strengths in this new environment of Navtech? Was that what you found?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 31:48

I think that's what I was trying to find, you know, the thesis of my strengths was always Yeah, putting my hand up and, and trying to find new experiences and different experiences. I didn't just want that job, you know, go and map and then add the attributes to you know, and that was fine. It was a great job. But I was like, this is this can't just be it. There has to be other. There'll be other things as well. You know, it's that curiositiy, that I'm like, what else is out there? I put my hand up for that. What's that going to do? Who am I going to meet? Where's it going to take me? And I also quite brave to do it. I suppose that's me, as well, as I realise now talking to you and quite brave, I've put my hand up and say, I'll stick my neck out. I'll go Yeah. All right. I'll do that. You know, I say 9000. Quality auditor job. Yeah, okay, I'll have a go.

Andy Follows: 32:37

So that made you a valued member of the team, so they were happy to invest in you. And it got you exposed to lots of different things. And I'm not surprised to hear that having heard someone who goes to university and then goes straight to the US and vacations straight to Canada, then straight after university travels around Asia and is happy to go on your own. This sounds like someone who's brave, quite confident and curious, as you said, very curious. So tell us about a little bit about your journey through Navtech, then and some of the main moments that you remember.

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 33:08

So in quite quickly, after I started my marketing course, a sales role came up. So I applied for it. And I got it, I was very pleased. And it was based in Marlow. So then I became very familiar with the M40, travelling up and down, ever such a lot in those years. But I this was a very different role. And it was a sales role. And it was about supporting the national sales companies. So the automotive national sales companies in UK and Ireland to sell more navigation systems and more map updates. Now this again, so back to 2004. It's a very different era of navigation, we were so it was before the tom toms it was before there was a few aftermarket navigation systems, Siemens VDO, there was map updates, which were about 300 pounds, you know for a CD ROM that you put in the back of the car. So we're talking this kind of era. And so it's a very tough sales role. Because, you know, navigation systems weren't standard in vehicles. So it was about trying to influence the retailers to promote navigation systems. And when you had a navigation system to promote a map update, so you get the freshest map. Yeah, it was it was pretty tough, but it was a brand new role. I did well, to grow that business and to grow the understanding of it amongst the different NSCs or the NSOs. I really enjoyed working with the NSOs and the NSCs. I was working with a PSA and Renault and Jaguar Land Rover you know, BMW all the big ones across the across the UK for europe group. So I was doing quite a lot of travel. And the sales team I was working in was a global sales team. So I'd spend a lot more time now working in a with that team in Europe as well. And I think the biggest thing I noticed At this point was I was the only woman in a room of 60 salesmen. Apart from one other incredible woman, who is still my friend today, Jean Kearney. I've known her for my entire career. And she came to my wedding a few years ago as well. So she's my very good friend, and she was the only other woman in the room of all these European men. And I was like, this is a very interesting, new world I've come into. And I think what I did was I changed myself quite significantly. When I was working with the NSC and the NSOs, and building that relationship and building those clients, they will also men, and I found that sometimes it was a bit awkward. So we go out for lunches, and you know, doing the sales thing, and they'd feel awkward if I was paying, I was like, but it's a work lunch, you don't have to feel awkward about me paying because this is a work lunch, and this is what I do. It's about building relationships, so that I can, you know, try and talk you into marketing programmes and trainings, incentives for your retailers. And I was kind of affected by the reaction I would get from men. And I started to change myself to try and adapt, I would wear suits. And I would wear flat shoes, and I'd wear minimal makeup, and I, you know, just try to work out ways that I could be taken a bit more seriously, I suppose, in a way, I remember I was in my early 20s, or mid 20s, I suppose at this point, and I'm trying to work this sales role. And because I haven't got an experience, I'm working it to the tee, you know, I've just been trained to do this. And I'm, I'm looking up at these men in my sales team that have done it for many years. And I'm learning from them. And I'm trying to apply it, but I'm not getting the same response. So what do I need to do to change that? And I couldn't, that was my biggest fear, my real challenge in that role.

Andy Follows: 36:58

Yeah, it's almost like looking at that little frown you've got, like, almost your back their back trying to solve that, that problem. You talked about, you know, changing the way you dressed and so on. You also said you were successful at this? And what would you put that down to? What about your strengths and your behaviour, your approach that enabled you to be successful, then

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 37:26

I think there was a disconnect, there was a disconnect for me of who I was trying to be with this, you know, more masculine approach. And the person that I am, which is, I'm curious, and I love talking to people. And I think that, you know, selling roles and sales roles is all about the relationship. It's all about that communication. But there comes a challenge, if the other person isn't comfortable with that communication, or thinks there's something else you know, about or, you know, they can't apply that same feeling to the communication because I'm a female, and they're used to working with men.

Andy Follows: 38:03

Yeah, what you've read made me realise is how there's kind of interference happening, it sort of the men you were dealing with, they're getting, I don't know, mentally blasted with interference, because their conditioning is sending them one set of messages at the same time that you're trying to do your job. They're obviously experiencing some programming that is causing them not to be able to respond to you in the same way that they would if you were male. And that's how I'm interpreting what you're saying, if that's okay.

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 38:38

Yeah, it's spot on, is spot on. And what really made me leave the job was that the new director that came into the role, also made it 10 times worse, because he also couldn't work out why I could be successful. And, you know, there was great amount of misogyny with his approach to me, compared to the other men in the team. He was treating them very differently to how he was treating me and I didn't want to be in that environment anymore. And I was became quite unhappy, not to a degree of, you know, looking outside of the job, but I mentioned it to one of the directors that I'd worked with before. His name was Tim Cordell, and the best manager and Best Director I've ever had. So I'm gonna definitely going to give him a name check. We'd just gone through reorganisation, and he, he knew I was unhappy. He'd recognise that actually, he saw what was happening. That's what makes him so great. He saw what was happening. And he said, I'm not I'm not happy with this. Leave it with me. And then I was in Germany. I can remember the call very vividly. He rang me up and he said, Jane, what do you know about e commerce? And I said, I will know everything that you need me to know about e commerce by Monday. You said great, you've got a job. Come work with me. I was like great I'm outta here. I'm in my next step

Andy Follows: 40:02

right answer. I love it. Let me take a moment to tell you about our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by ASKE Consulting who are experts in executive search, resourcing solutions and talent management across all sectors of the automotive industry in the UK and Europe. I've known them for almost 20 years and I can think of no more fitting sponsor for CAREER-VIEW MIRROR. They're the business we go to at Aquilae When we're looking for talent for our clients and for projects that we're working on. ASKE was founded by Andrew McMillan, whose own automotive career includes board level positions with car brands and leasing companies, all ASKE consultants have extensive client side experience, which means they bring valuable insight and perspective for both their employer and candidate customers. My earliest experience of working with Andrew was back in 2004, when he helped me hire regional managers for my leasing Sales Team at Alphabet. More recently, when Aquilae was helping a US client to establish a car subscription business ASKE Consulting was alongside as helping us to develop our people strategy, and to identify and bring onboard suitable talent. Clients we've referred to ASKE have had an equally positive experience. Andrew and the team at ASKE are genuinely interested in the long term outcomes for you and the people they place with you. They even offer the reassurance of a two year performance guarantee, which means they have skin in the game when working with you. If you're keen to secure the most talented and high potential people to accelerate your business and gain competitive advantage, do get in touch with them and let them know I sent you. You can email Andrew and the team at Hello@askeconsulting.co.uk or check out their website for more details and more client feedback at www.askeconsulting.co.uk. ASKE is spelt A S K E. You'll find these contact details in the show notes for this episode. Okay, let's get back to our episode. So what was that like? Tell me about that?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 42:06

Well, this was so we're looking at about 2007 now, so this is the very early days of E commerce. And we as a business wanted to open a new channel of sales. And yeah, this was about developing that channel. And it was great, because yet more European travel was on the cards so I was then travelling around to the headquarters of the OEMs to talk about how we had a product called navigation.com. And we could sell these navigation maps and navigation services directly to their consumers. And some OEMs loved it and some OEMs went oh my god. There's no way we can bypass our retailer so there was a lot of negotiation, and a lot of talking and helping to articulate the service and and what can be done what can be done financial negotiations as well. It was it was really an interesting time. And my role behind that was to build these platforms to sell maps and navigation products on behalf of the OEMs and I had a development team in Chicago. So I've managed to start travelling over to Chicago a lot. And it was a lot about learned a lot about business change. And I really enjoyed that job very much. And eventually over the next five years, I built a portfolio of over 20 stores for the global OEMs and one of them was Jaguar Land Rover, but also Renault, Peugeot, Citroen Fiat Group Vauxhall Honda. And I did a lot in different languages as well. So yeah, it was a huge step into a digital world. So very different. Again, I was like, the digital part was interesting, because it was all very new. It was how to do this. Because, you know, again, very early on in, in the E commerce and E commerce in this space was was very fresh.

Andy Follows: 44:07

So you got a really good opportunity there when it was Nascent, if you like beginning of that part of the industry, if you were able to give some advice to your younger self, the younger self who was noticing that the men you were dealing with seem to be sort of struggling with to process what was going on. And you've obviously you obviously successfully managed to navigate this environment. So what would you recommend as shortcuts to your younger self? Because I'm sure you've tried lots of things and eventually figured things out. But what would your advise be?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 44:41

it's a very good question. I didn't realise that there was such a gender imbalance as I went through university. And the first experience I ever had of the difference I will be treated was when I did start that at Navtech, and I started with another man and I know he got paid more than I did. too, and I challenged it. And I said, Why is he getting paid more than me, and the reason was, is because he has a family. And I find it quite hard to accept that. And it's funny to sort of think back, that I didn't realise that this, there was this sort of inequality, but you can map a, you know, different things that women want a need throughout their career, you know, right from that very start right to the very end of when they leave, there's lots and lots of, there's lots of lots of different elements that a woman needs and experiences through that journey. I think that what I was really missing was role models. And I'm not surprised there aren't any role models, because as I've got, you know, as I've, I've got through that journey. And you know, looking back, I see that there were less female role models of an older age, there's less C suite, women, women on the board. And it's very difficult to get there as a woman, because there's so many systemic issues and challenges that you face along the way, in everything from pay and we'll talk a little bit about motherhood and the motherhood challenge. And there's also health, like menopause that women go through. Now I'm getting into a very big answer here but It's a big, very big topic, and one that

Andy Follows: 46:17

It's a big topic. I've, you know, very passionate about. I was lucky I had Jean throughout these 18 years, Jean was the role model for me, she was my sponsor, she was my confidant, and my friend gave me good advice and was a very strong female. But there wasn't many more. And women also, I noticed, didn't talk about having children or what children they had in their families, because it was seen in in this culture that I was working in that it would affect your career progression. So yeah, to younger self, when your values get hit, and you don't feel that you can live authentically, then you need either need to fear find somebody who can help you through or you need to change direction, I want to say thank you very much for joining me for this conversation and for being a role model yourself. And that's one of the things we're trying to do here is provide a platform for a diverse group of people to share their stories so that other people do have a chance to listen and hear, hear how they come to be where they are. So thank you for for doing that. Jane, did you any talk about being authentic and things challenging your values, and earlier in the conversation, you were saying how you started to wear flat shoes, and you started to wear suits. But that wasn't really the authentic, you were becoming somebody else in order to try and bend yourself out of shape to fit in with what the system seemed to require? Was there a point where you were able to not bend yourself so much out yet, were you able to sort of go in a different direction?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 48:00

Not really, not in this world. I I didn't I just I kept I kept on going a little bit late. So I was in this this role for a long time. It kind of it morphed and changed a little bit, once the platforms were built, was getting more strategic. And at that point, they put a travel ban in so lost my beloved travel. I thought no, so they fit a travel ban in which made life new ways of communicating. But I also had my first daughter at around that time as well. So I guess it changed what I needed from work in a way, I had to sort of adapt what I was after. And what I was enjoying and exploring in this freedom of just having a career to focus on to then having a child and a baby and tried to work out what that looked like. Because again, there was no role models, telling me to show or showing me the way of how to navigate my career while having a you know, a baby and a daughter and I had nine months off maternity, I went back early because there was no fear of not going back into the same job. And then I had to try and work out how to be a new person because I'm a mother now. And not just this career woman. And I found that quite difficult. Because as I say, there wasn't anybody around me that was already doing it. And I actually saw I mentioned that women didn't talk about having children, but I also saw that women weren't supporting women. And they were women weren't actively helping other women be flexible with their work, you know, to help with childcare and and I was it was kind of quite frightening to not know how to navigate this. And I had I then experienced a baby loss a couple of years later and I didn't tell anybody because again, I I was frightened that it would affect my career, I was trying to go for promotion at the time. And I thought, if they know I'm going to have another child, then they'll never give me this promotion. So I didn't, I didn't mention it, I just took some time off work. And I know kept it very low and under the radar, and, and I'm sad about that for many reasons, but not so much as to not being able to speak up for other women that were following me and to actually make it, that it's normal in the workplace that we do experience life. And we do have children, we do have families and things happen. And we have to talk about it. And I think it broke me in many ways. Because those conversations that I love to have, and those topics that I really don't mind bringing up with anybody I couldn't. And I think it was a bit of a dark time in my career.

Andy Follows: 50:51

Yeah, thanks for sharing that it does sound very restricted. You were restricted from being yourself you had to play within these constraints or expectations. Do you think it's any better? Now? I'm not sure if I'm jumping ahead too much. But do you think I asked you, you know, what advice would you give for your younger self? Would you give any different advice to young people who are in the present day, trying to navigate the same journey that you navigated? It

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 51:24

It feels like it's a very different era, I think the next generation are willing to have challenge things. I wasn't willing to challenge things, because I felt that the system was set up one way, and I was trying to fit myself to that system, although it didn't fit me very well. The next generation will break those systems. And I see it happening already. And I think it's, it's great. And the COVID, and the pandemic changed a lot of things around, working from home and bringing that flexibility. And people being able to have more conversations, because we see people in their houses. And, you know, my my daughters were very often on on teams calls with me asking me for ice cream at the most inappropriate times. But you know, they were there. And we saw into people's lives. And I think that businesses are looking now at people, and they're changing cultures to be more open and inclusive and welcoming. And women being part of that. I think there's a lot of work to do but I navigated it the best I could at the time.

Andy Follows: 52:31

Yeah. So back to the story, and back to E commerce and you had your daughter, your first daughter, and work changed for you. But you were finding ways to derive pleasure and value or fulfilment from it. It was fitting into a new kind of life.

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 52:51

Yeah, I mean, my husband, he has his own business. So he travels a lot. And he is an entrepreneur, very busy in his world. And it became a very different life. And we had our first child, and we also have two stepchildren. So the household changed. And the work had to sort of change a little bit with it as well. So without the travel, it was easier. But I was still I'm still all in because my, you know, the journey that I've got to and the things that I got to experience and the experience I got to and I'm still in the same company. But the you know, since then, we've been owned by Nokia, and then went back to be called here. So the company changed quite a lot through those years. I was in it. And I navigated by. So using the word navigated, it seems to be my word of my word of my life. I've navigated navigated my life. I've been navigation technologies, navigators, my, it's my password. It's not really, it should be. But I'd gotten to this really great space where I knew the product very well. So navigation.com, worked with it for many years, built it into this great platform that could deliver millions of revenue, continuously running a team to optimise it and to maintain it. Working with a fantastic development team. And a shout out to Jim [name] who was the system architect who is just brilliant, who also came to my wedding, love him to bits. He did a lot of the tech stuff. I did a lot of the business change stuff. And I you know, and I really enjoyed it. And I think I came to a project where I was working with Jaguar Land Rover on a big, big project to deliver products and services for their new ngi nav system. And I thought, Oh, this is interesting. And when I delivered that programme, I thought, oh, maybe I'll hop over the fence as Jaguar Land Rover are just over the road there. They're just well just up the road from me and I thought to know what, I'm going to leave this 18 years and I'm gonna go into a new organisation and we're going to see what I can do there. And I'd heard that JLR had very good family policies and you know, ways of working. I was like, Well, you know what, why not? I've come to the end of my road here. I want to do something new and exciting new organisation really challenge my skills. I had another daughter by this time I was so she was three, I think. And yeah, and I hopped over the fence and joined JLR.

Andy Follows: 55:26

Right. Well, I've got some questions about about that actual, how you brought that about? Before I do. I've got a question though. About Nokia. So the the firm you were in Navtech became Nokia. At some point.

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 55:39

Yeah. They were acquired by Nokia. So Navtech became a division of Nokia called Location and Commerce.

Andy Follows: 55:46

And was this at a time when Nokia was knocking everything out of the park when Nokia was we all had our Nokia phones. And, yeah, we know what happened to Nokia, we know how Apple came and ate their lunch, if you like, was there any signs of that? Or have you got any reflections on what happened from your experience being inside Nokia, at a time when Nokia was really successful

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 56:10

It was a very different culture, I recognise although we're still kind of contained and became an organisation within this big Nokia machine. I felt that the the focus that Navtech and navigation technologies had always had was was on OEMs, you know, providing the map the greatest quality map data for OEMs. And that was where the, you know, the money, the opportunity. And the the biggest part of the business was, I think, at that time, if I remember correctly, the use of the map data was looked at for something else. So Nokia wanted to use map data for it was start of Adas are starting to become interesting. And I think that was where they wanted to move that technology and incorporate that back into Nokia. So it was difficult to really see what was going on, as like the bigger picture. But I do remember the focus coming off OEMs. And I was thinking or, I don't know about this, I don't know how we, how Nokia want to use this map data, you know, for the future. And there was some great visions and ideas and idealisms and everything. And then then they were gone, was it, it was quite a short amount of time. In my mind. It was maybe two years, two and a half years. We then stood alone again and became here they left us. Right. And that was Nokia did demise.

Andy Follows: 57:35

Thank you for going there with me. So back to hopping over the fence to JLR. You noticed as you'd been working with them as a business partner as a vendor? How did you go about actually making this happen? Give me a little bit of detail on because I think this is really helpful for listeners to know. Okay, so I see you went from one company to another, but just give me a little bit more detail on how you did that.

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 58:02

So if I looked back, I kind of was in amongst digital transformation. So ecommerce digital transformation, it was all about that map in the vehicle. So I followed that. I followed that to Jaguar Land Rover, where do you talk about the map in the vehicle, and that happened to be in infotainment in engineering, bearing in mind, I'm a commercial person. And I've always worked in the sales and marketing roles where my education is where I'm experienced, the map and the software and all the products and the services. And basically, that was the team that I was working with. I was working obviously in here, technologies with this business change. With my great development team doing the tech. I followed the tech into infotainment and into into engineering. And it was about having conversations, I started to talk to the people that I've been working with. They passed me on to other people who had projects that they were working on. And it was just I was going in and I was literally having different conversations around the jobs that they had to offer. And if they thought that I was a good fit, then they would invite me to apply for those roles. And I had a conversation with Doug Rose, Jaguar Land Rover and he was looking for a programme manager for Pivi which is the next infotainment system, that Jaguar Land Rover were evolving into, and I moved into that role. And I negotiated my way in and I started in May I think 2018 To Jaguar Land Rover, and it was so different

Andy Follows: 59:45

So well done, you'd engineered this move. You seen it you treated it like a project. It sounds like you'd gone on explorer mode you play to your strengths in terms of it I'm coming from this bit of the business Maps Navigation. Where does that land in JLR? Talk to people around that area? What opportunities are there and then exploring? Am I good fit? You know, what am I missing? Where would I be able to add value until you finally settle on this opportunity programme manager for Pivi? So why was it so different?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 1:00:23

Very different ways of working. So I'd gone from this very global company, you know, no travel anymore. So working through screens. And because it was a global company, everything was written down emails, it was all very structured and decisions were made, and business decisions were respected. And decisions when I went into JLR, were very the way working is very different. Because then you're back with people, and people making decisions on the spot, and no one documenting it, not always, you know, the way I was used to documenting it, you know, it was like, okay, so that discussion has been had. And then things moved a lot quicker, which I think Jaguar Land Rover, people will laugh at me saying that because they're like, oh, you know, sometimes things go so slow. But it was just the way that people worked with each other. And, you know, decisions were made and the access to the people in the teams to make those decisions. were fascinating. And I found myself in some really unusual situations know where I'm talking to people about where the technology would like fit into the vehicle. It was like a, you know, these things I've never really thought about when I'm just working in software now. Got this, the hardware that I'm thinking about as well. And my role was thinking about future features. And what else could come into the next phase of Pivi, which was for Range Rover. And so I was looking at and working out all the different features like rear seat entertainment, and it was, there was so much and so many people to talk to it was overwhelming. Yeah, it was like a baptism of fire. If I remember, rightly, I was like, wow. Oh, wow. Yeah, and I was. And I also noticed, again, that there was only two female managers in infotainment, myself and another woman Afshar. So there was two of us. And that was interesting as well. So again, the gender balance very, no balance. So that was interesting.

Andy Follows: 1:02:22

Is there more from your time at JLR? Because that was 2018. So we've got that six years you spent there what what other events happened?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 1:02:32

I was there for a couple of years in infotainment. And then I moved back into the commercial world. So I found myself in a in another role, which was back in ecommerce and this was selling cars online. So it was a new online car sales. And I was programme manager for Europe to bring you know, actually, it was like my dream, I thought it would be my dream job. This is it, you know, ecommerce, selling cars online. I was like, I've made it you know, I've gone from selling, you know, map products, and you know, and services and online to, you know, actually getting a car online. And that was a fascinating time of my career as well. It's It was super, super busy managing many different teams, our business to business change teams, and digital teams and technology teams, and was talking to lots of different business partners about financing and legal. And that was it was a massive explosion of understanding how to take a car and sell it on an online platform. And yeah, I learned such a lot during that time as well. It was kept me very, very busy. Yeah,

Andy Follows: 1:03:48

I'm thinking you really would have to understand such a lot. It all comes together in that online platform. Was it enjoyable?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 1:03:56

No. It wasn't to be honest, no, I wasn't. I didn't enjoy it. And but again, I put my hand up for other things not that I had the time to do it. But what I what I found was the gender equality network. So I joined looking around as I mentioned, when I joined to engineering and I've been one of only two female managers and not being able to support the other women, you know, coming up through the ranks, because there just wasn't enough of us to support those women as we should have been. I joined the gender equality network. And this is one of the it was the largest of the employee led networks in in JLR. And it was quite new when I joined and I started to get a little bit involved and joined the committee and I started organising a few events. And then the pandemic hit and everything you know, the business have got it all, you know, all goes quiet and you know, you're just in sort of survival mode. And this was, this is when two things really happened to me that have defined My career and I think it will join a lot of the dots that we've we've come to in our in our conversation, I do think you'll want to watch your smile. But I found my voice in this time, because two things happened to me when the pandemic hit. And that justice, that value that I had was really hit. And I felt like I had to stand up and I had to speak out about it. And the two things that happened were, how women were operating and how women were surviving during the pandemic. And I fell into perimenopause, I mean, who knew in my mid 40s, that this thing was going to come and hit me. So I felt that these two things were so inbuilt in me that I had to speak out, because although I've worked my whole career navigating, you know, there's the word again, you know, this my career with you know, in this man's world, these two things really detrimentally are going to affect gender equality.

Andy Follows: 1:05:54

So what was it about the way women were being or how this was landing with women?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 1:05:59

So the it was the, you know, 2021, that March lock down, it was a very dark, and remember, I was here and this very spot, actually, as I'm standing here now, you know, dark mornings, dark nights, I'm homeschooling my two children, my husband's business is, you know, holding on with it's fingernails, I'm worried about my mom. And, you know, I'm still trying to do

Andy Follows: 1:06:23

the extra burden, the extra burden that was placed on on women, particularly during that time. Yeah

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 1:06:28

Absolutely. All those unpaid hours that women were doing, and I could see that women were leaving the workplace, I was reading these articles about how the gender equality gap would widen. I think Forbes said it would widen a further 36 years, just in the 12 months, that was in the pandemic. And I thought, my God, that's a generation and I'm feeling this way. And I'm burnt out, and I'm fatigued. And I feel hopeless. And I actually wrote to the board. Gonna say something here. You know, I don't mind opening this conversation. Don't know you, but I'm going to write to you, I'm really concerned that we're going to lose these precious women, and we need to do something. And he replied, and I said, I'm, you know, I'm going to do something myself, because I want I want to, so I was at home. And I thought, what can I do? So I mentioned I was in gender equality network, and I organised events. And I was like, Well, so what I'm going to do is I'm going to build this events platform. And I'm going to invite people from around the business to start to talk about their passions. And it's going to be like an hour long session, and I'm going to advertise it to the network members and see who comes. And I started with the topics of skills and development. So I found somebody to talk about personal branding. So she came along 20 People dialled in, then I found somebody who talked about mentoring and sponsorship, few more people dialled in. And then I did a whole series on wellbeing, I was just really hoping that it would help fuel depleted women. And every time I put in an event, more and more attendees came and this network that was there in the background, it really formed and people were then helping each other and people were creating this great positive ripple effect and positivities were coming up and spirits were being lifted and transformed. And before I knew it, I delivered 30 events that year. Wow, I was, I was really so invested, I found my passion, I had a huge enthusiasm, I gave my time I gave my skills of what I knew how to do. And I felt really helpful. And I thought, you know, this wasn't there. And so I'm going to create it, and I'm going to do something. And that was really the foundation of, of the gender equality network, as I became far more involved in in shaping what it was and, and I was really proud of that work. And I have a lot of humbling conversations of women that said, you know, I was alone as well. And, and, and all of a sudden, there was a community and somebody cared about me, and I was like, that's exactly what I was feeling like, but I was I was doing the giving, but I also felt cared about because women wanted to come and, you know, be together, and I just absolutely loved it. It sparked something in me.

Andy Follows: 1:09:11

Oh, so inspirational. Well done. I love that.

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 1:09:16

And I was I was very proud of the work I did. And actually I was recognised as an Inspirational Automotive Woman. And I won an award in 2022 from the Automotive 30% Club for doing that. So it was really beautiful to be recognised as well. So very humbled and felt really good about that.

Andy Follows: 1:09:38

Very well deserved and it sounds like and congratulations for the award and it it sounds like a pivotal moment in terms of you absolutely being authentic and you bringing 100% of yourself to the role of setting that up or growing it. And as you said, You've up your values, you had to say something your justice value. You couldn't pretend to be something different anymore. This was now I'm coming at you as, as I am and what a great impact it had.

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 1:10:16

Yeah, because I also mentioned menopause. So it's a very, very strange time to have to say, I didn't know what was happening with me. I just felt like I didn't have any joy. And I know the pandemic was happening. But it was a I just didn't really understand what was going on with me. And finally, I had a conversation with my friend and she said, you know, you've got perimenopause, I was like, what is that I wouldn't have even heard of the word. And I felt really quite ashamed. I have to say, I felt that I've got we've got like a four year old daughter here. And now I'm in perimenopause, I couldn't work it out. I honestly felt so lost and ashamed. And I was like right, Why aren't we talking about this? Every woman is going to go through it. And every man who knows a woman in midlife will go through it to God knows my husband went through with me. He's very well educated in it now but I could see that women don't even

Andy Follows: 1:11:16

have to sit in draughty rooms, you know?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 1:11:18

Yes, quite right. But nobody's getting the support they need, men aren't getting the support they need, and the women aren't getting the support, and the women are leaving the workplace. So I, you know, I took a big breath. And actually, after doing the events before, I think, some of the women around me that were supporting me, they were like, Oh, God, here she's gonna go again. And I did, I did a massive campaign just to bring menopause awareness to JLR. And I pushed that agenda for three years. But I really started, again, with a community like building that education. And because I was thinking, if I'm on this journey to understand it, I want to bring people with me. And I don't I don't want to do it alone, because I can't be the only woman that is feeling so lost in this. And we did did some great. You know got some storytelling going. So women around the business talking about what their experiences was to try and rate that taboo, bring empathy, got events, you know, go back to myself that I don't mind cold calling, I managed to get Gabby Logan to come and do a podcast with us and talk to the community. Dr. Louise Newson recently got Dr. Naomi Potter as well. So really great people that are trailblazing I even emailed Davina McCall, she didn't get back to me, but I you know, I don't mind asking. But I'm thinking there's trailblazers in society, let's get that talked about in JLR or in the workplace. Because we need to normalise this conversation. And we need to make sure that we're all okay with talking about it, so that we can get the support that we need. So I did a big campaign for a menopause guideline. So I produced a lot of the content for the menopause guidelines, and a business case, actually, again, bringing my say, Here's your business case, we need this.

Andy Follows: 1:13:11

Oh, as you're describing all of these phenomenal things that you've done, when it finally hit crunch point that someone's got to do something about this. And I'm still then very grateful that we had the conversation about you growing up, because understanding you were the sort of person who would get up and go places, and you would be the one that would make things happen. It doesn't come as a surprise, as you say, you can see the connection throughout your journey. And you've done so much for the people in JLR. And I just think it's as if the menopause was only just been invented. It's ridiculous. I can't, you know, I've been educated and I've had some other we have Dr. Lucy Ryan was my guest who's written a wonderful book.

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 1:13:58

I've read it.

Andy Follows: 1:13:59

Yeah, amazing book, again, totally eye opening and very confronting the first part of it. But then what I was pleased was that these are systemic issues. And as such, then systemic issues can be resolved if we do things as you have done so. And this all helps me to understand and to build, it makes sense of what you're doing, you know, your journey that you're on and this real, I feel like you're really empowered, as a result of everything you've done. Is that fair? Do you feel more empowered because of what you've achieved in this space?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 1:14:37

I feel like, I found myself like, you know, when you asked me that question, so and I answered so bluntly, did you enjoy it? No, I didn't, I wasn't fulfilled. I said, I wasn't fulfilled and I campaign and I will advocate and I will speak out because I feel that I am empowered to do it. But I have to be brave because actually it's it's not always natural to To me, you know, I sometimes have this perfectionist in me that sometimes it's basic, I find it really hard to fail in front of people, but I've had to learn how to fail in front of people. I've had to learn to say, you know, I've got this wrong. And actually now I don't really mind, I'll go, Oh, God, I'm really so sorry, I got that wrong. Can I try again? Or can I can we do something different. And I will stand up for what I believe in. And I will do my best to do that. And I went to the board to talk about menopause. And I actually went to speak to our CEO and his first line about why we should be talking about menopause in the workplace. And I shared my story with with them. And it was probably the most, one of the best days of my career, I didn't think I'd get to the board and say the word period, you know, it's like, I thought I'd get to the board, you know, and to say the word ecommerce, or sales or something like this, but no, no talked about menstruating, not in great depth. But you know, it was, it was, yeah, it was revolutionary. But I got to the board, and I talked about the thing that I really care about, and that's people. And that's about justice, and about doing the right thing, and, and speaking up and making sure that we understand from the top all the way down, why we need to normalise things like this. And we want to support men and women. And we want to make sure that women can progress their careers. And the feedback I've had from women that since I started the work in JLR has kept me going that's what gives me that passion to work night after night. Here, you know, my husband goes, Are you working? I'm like, just gonna do that gender equality stuff. And he's like, right? Of course you are. So it's above and beyond, it's not my day job. And I did my day job. And I did this campaigning, and this, this work. And you know, and it wasn't just menopause it we also did a big campaign for gender balance, I created a campaign called Be The Change, which was about trying to increase ally ship, and talk about why we should have more diverse teams, you know, designing vehicles, engineering, manufacturing, selling marketing, you know, we need diverse teams, because then you'd be more profitable. And really understanding why we need to encourage, you know, things to change those systemic changes. Everybody can do something, doesn't matter how passionate or not passionate they are about gender equality, everybody can do something to make it a better and inclusive workplace. So that was a very big, I did conferences that had guest speakers. And there was all kinds of interventions around being the change and include I tried to bring people with me, and with the gender equality network, you know, on that journey, and it's hard, it's hard to bring change, but I'll tell you what, I've got so much energy and passion for it. Yeah, and ideas and creativity. And so I realised one day that impact and the proud work that I've done, and the amazing people that I've worked with, to bring about that that change. I mean, I'm not DNI person, I'm not an HR person. I'm a commercial person you know, to bring this, I woke up one day, and I realised that I couldn't really do it any more, I couldn't do a day job of which I've fallen out of love with. And this absolute passion where I'm actually seeing change, and I'm alive and I'm loving, helping so many people. And then I've got my family and I, my my husband and there's a little bit of a well being I need to think about for myself as well. And I burned out. And I have to say that for the first time in my career last year, I had to take some time out. And I had to just reflect really on why I couldn't carry on. And I found that the values those values I've talked about over the last the last hour or so with you. And I really realised how ingrained they are in me they were being hit. I could see the people around me that some really, really poor behaviours. They were shocking. The space I was working in didn't feel psychologically safe. I couldn't live to my true potential in my job hadn't been able to for some time. And I needed to work on some self compassion because I wasn't being very kind to myself. And I felt quite inadequate despite all this great work I'd done I there was something that was just really missing. I guess it's like this imperfection of life. You know it it deals so many different cards to you at different times. And I was really trying to work out what it was all for. And what was making me so unhappy what was making me intolerant of of these things that I was knowing encountering? And I also thought a lot about boundaries. I mean, gosh, I'm a bit of a people pleaser have been in my career, and I couldn't say no or enough. And, you know, work was a big part of my identity, and oh, gosh, compromise all these things. And it was there was, as you can tell, there was so much just going on in my mind, I couldn't, I couldn't quite think what was happening. So I kind of I did return to work. But I was looking for something. I just believe that time off those few weeks off, started to ask myself some real hard questions. There I am mid career. Okay, I'm 48. And what I'm, you know, what it's all been for, what's all the experiences and everything been for? And who have I become, how different Am I now to when I started my journey? And is the path that I'm on really aligning to my own ambitions? What am I going to regret not doing? What am I really good at doing? What do I not want to happen anymore? What are those trade offs I've just done with in my career? And they were the really tough questions that I was found myself mulling over every single day. Yeah, good at my job. Really. Yeah, course good at my job, have been doing it for many years. But that fulfilment wasn't in the job. It was in the gender equality network. And being the voice of a woman, and being the voice for women. And that was my mission. And no amount of success in a job was going to bring the same level of that.

Andy Follows: 1:21:37

Oh wonderful. That whole passage was absolutely beautiful. And so what was the crunch point? Tell me?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 1:21:46

Have you ever heard of Ikigai? So? Yes, well, I didn't realise I just happened across it in a chapter of a book by Julia Muir. And I was thinking at the time, why, if you've written about this, but I really got it. She, she wrote a great book about gender balance in automotive. She's the founder of the Automotive 30% Club. And it kind of was in the back of my mind, but yeah, Japanese word, Ikigai, it's, for reason to live or a reason to jump out of bed in the morning. And I thought, Well, I'm not jumping out of bed in the morning, but I'm resisting going to bed in which is, this is because this is what I want to work on. So yeah, my passion is that actually, it's, it's a place of balance. So it's where your needs desires, ambitions, and satisfaction meet. And that's me, that's what I found my passion was in advocating for women in the workplace and, and help women reach their career potential, taking all the work, or all the things that I've experienced, experienced in the workplace and doing something to make it different. And, you know, the patriarchal system is, is too slow, it's too slow to change. And I am a woman of impact. I'm a woman of action. And that's, that's who I am. That's me. And that's what brought me to the point of handing in my notice.

Andy Follows: 1:23:09

So that sounds all I mean, just make sense. You've got this realisation this epiphany, right? This is me found yourself. Authenticity. ikigai passion. Excellent. But you still got to resign.

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 1:23:24

Yeah. Now, yes, I had to resign. And my goodness, that was really painful. That's the only word I can use to explain it. It was so so hard to step out. Because its me, yeah, sure. I had to understand why I'd worked all this you know done all this and I got to that point. But I really cared about JLR. I do care about JLR. I care about its people. I care about the organisation as a whole, and I care about the wide eco ecosystem. And the community. I mean, I live in Leamington, there's every car that's driving down the road, you know, every third car is a management car, I had to give my car back, you know, there's, I desperately care about that world. I had to step out. And it hurt me to take everything that I've learned all that passion and expertise and everything that I've done with me, and to actually realise that my needs had changed, and to come to peace with it, really, and I feel so very grateful that over the last six years at JLR, I've been able to navigate myself to this point, and are now able to create my next chapter. But it's yeah, it was it was very hard for me to do I have to tell you,

Andy Follows: 1:24:46

No well that's a complexity isn't that you said Life deals you all these different cards and it's oversimplifying it to think that just because you've had that epiphany and worked out what you want that there isn't still hard stuff. And also stuff you have to give up stuff you have to leave behind in order to change to move, move on, often, it's more about what you have to leave behind than it is what you have to do next. So that makes it difficult. And when we need to talk about what you're going to do now we need to share what what your plans are and how people can work with you if they want to.

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 1:25:24

So yes, I would like to continue to work in this area. Because I've got a lot of, let's say, passion, and real stuff that I've actually done and delivered. I mean, it's really interesting to know how to work in that automotive world, and I know how to work in, in a corporate world, to deliver programmes, and you can apply those skills, right, really, and I did apply those skills many times with the interventions that are put in place for the gender equality in JLR. And now I'm working out how I can take that passion and those experiences and you know, those services, I suppose, and interventions, and offer them elsewhere, to other businesses, organisations that want to support women, you know, want to attract women, and advance and retain diverse female talent across their career journey. And I really do feel that this stems right from girls understanding when they're at school, what opportunities there are, you know, we talk a lot in, in automotive about STEM subjects and, and girls understanding that they are as good as maths and science and those opportunities are open to them. And to encourage them to take those opportunities. It's really understanding what else there is, you know, you don't just have to work in engineering to work in an automotive, there are so many other brilliant careers to have in that world. But what is in that world that will make you want to stay will make you want to grow will give you that fulfilment. And I think, even from that very early age, the right the way through into understanding what businesses are about into recruitment, through to career progression, and development, and then through different life stages as well through maternity, and paternity, very important. maternity, paternity, and then different life stages in different health conditions. And then also, menopause all the way out the other end, I see this whole journey, I've lived it. And I can map each need and requirements that and support that we can put in place to make sure that women can thrive, and women want to stay and women are happy. And women want to give everything and and that that men also are enlightened and know how they can support women, because with gender equality, it takes everybody to get us to that incredible point. So yeah, I have three things that I really focus in on. So Ally ship, and women's development and women's health. And they map very well to these different parts of women's career to give that gender balance. And yeah, I'd like to stay within automotive, because it's what I know, right? And it's so very dynamic and very passionate about it.

Andy Follows: 1:28:08

A very stirring sort of final passage if you like. Is there anything I haven't asked you that means I might have missed missed an opportunity?

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 1:28:17

I don't think so. But what I really have learned here is how brilliant conversations can be. And this is something that I am really interested in, in how to have better and deep conversations. I've never surprised so much as to how society hasn't set us up for having conversations about things that really do matter. The next generation will change things. And we won't work the same way that we are working now. But we should talk more and understand more what does need to change. And without having those deep and thoughtful and curious conversations. Things won't change in and I really want to see some good change come for everybody.

Andy Follows: 1:29:04

I don't want to say anything else after that, because that was so perfect. So I'm just gonna say thank you so much for being my guest. It's been absolutely wonderful. I've loved hearing your stories. I've loved getting to know you. I've loved the connection that we formed as a result of this conversation. I'm a huge fan of conversations

Jane Cusdin-Harris: 1:29:20

I can tell. It's an amazing conversation. Thank you for your great, great questions. Really great exploration of my life. Thank you.

Andy Follows: 1:29:34

You've been listening to CAREER-VIEW MIRROR with me, Andy Follows. Depending on your unique life experience or where you find yourself right now and your personal goals, you'll have your own takeaways from Jane's story. Some elements that stood out for me were her parents split up when she was five and she and her sister separated with her living with her mum. She got to see her mum working hard in multiple jobs. She had two good friends throughout school who helped to make that and enjoyable time, she was a good student who particularly enjoyed the humanities. She was keen to make some money of her own and she went immediately to get a job on her 16th birthday. She applied to the University of Hull and deferred 12 months to do Art Foundation in Coventry to give her the opportunity to explore both avenues. We learned that Hull is never dull, and Jane enjoyed her time there. She was sufficiently confident and independent to go and work in the US and Canada during her vacations. And then after graduating, she went travelling for 14 months, she wanted to bring her love of art and sustainability and curiosity about people together and recognise that she could do that as a photo journalist. But when she came back from her travels, her family put the Navtech job in front of her, and that led to her spending 18 years there, she was aware that there were few females there, she faced some real challenges to fit in as a young woman in a male dominated environment and she developed a growing passion for gender equality. She was always putting her hand up for new opportunities, and this may have influenced the company's decision to support her to do a Chartered Institute of marketing diploma. We heard about the inspiring leadership behaviour of Tim Cordell. He wasn't happy with what he saw happening to Jane and brought her into E commerce and navigation solutions. That meant more travel and working with OEMs which ultimately facilitated a move to Jaguar Land Rover. She thought that online marketing of cars would be more of a dream job than it turned out to be. At work, she found herself having to hide who she really was. She suffered the loss of a baby and didn't mention it so as not to alert others that she was looking to have another child as that would stifle the prospects of promotion. Jane has recently left JLR to set up her consultancy focusing on gender equality. We know how passionate she is and what she's achieved so far, and we wish her all the very best with Cusdin Consulting. If you'd like to connect with Jane, you'll find her contact details in the show notes to this episode. If you enjoy listening to my guest stories, please could you do me a favour and share an episode with someone you lead parent or mentor or perhaps a friend of yours who you think would also enjoy listening? Thank you to Jane for joining me for our conversation. Thank you to our sponsors for this episode, ASKE Consulting and Aquilae and thank you to the CAREER-VIEW MIRROR team without whom we wouldn't be able to share our guests life and career stories. And above all, thank you to you for listening