Ross Forder: accelerating the world's transition to a sustainable future with vision, commitment, and mouth-watering burgers.

After four and a half years helping Tesla to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy, Ross Forder realised that the unsustainable food industry also urgently required disruption and so, in 2017, he left Tesla and founded the vegan fast food brand Halo Burger. Halo Burger now has sites in Brixton, Shoreditch and Brighton and is planning its first full scale restaurant. 

Ross was part of the original sales team that launched the Tesla Model S into the market. His ambition, dedication and competitive nature aligned perfectly with the rapid scaling of the business and saw him advance from his initial role as a Product Specialist to running London's key Tesla stores at Westfield and then Chiswick and culminated in him running sales and delivery training for Western Europe and the Middle East. 

In our conversation we talk about how an incredible stroke of luck landed him on his original chosen path only for him to eventually become disillusioned, how his approach proved more valuable than his experience and his competitive nature drove his early success. He openly talks about his increasing self awareness and how that resulted in paradigm shifts along the way and he shares how a comment from a friend made him realise that he needed to join Tesla. We discuss his rapid progression through the ranks in that hyper scaling business and the parallels between Tesla's mission and that of the business he has founded, Halo Burger.  

I had the pleasure and privilege to work alongside Ross at Tesla and I am delighted to be able to share his story so far with you. I recommend you check out Halo Burger's Instagram @haloburgeruk for photo evidence of what Time Out described as "Vegan junk food at its junkiest" and if you're anywhere near Brixton or Shoreditch in London or Brighton on the south coast of the UK try them out for yourselves. 

I hope you enjoy listening to Ross’s career story and, as always, I look forward to hearing what resonates with you. 

You can contact Ross on LinkedIn

Why not follow us on Instagram @careerviewmirror where you can comment on the specific episodes that you have enjoyed. 

To help you navigate the content we've separated it into chapters which work on Apple Podcasts and certain other streaming platforms.

This episode of Career-view Mirror is brought to you by Aquilae. 

Aquilae is a boutique consultancy in the auto finance and mobility industry. We offer our Expertise as a Service to help you design and deliver projects that develop your business and the people within it. Contact cvm@aquilae.co.uk if you’d like to know more. 

If you enjoyed this podcast please take a moment to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Your feedback helps us grow. 

For details of our forthcoming guests follow us on Instagram @careerviewmirror 

Email: cvm@aquilae.co.uk 

Twitter: @cvmpodcast 

Episode recorded on 10 December 2021 

Transcript

Ross Forder: 0:00

And you quickly learn, when you're in meetings with Elon Musk, that nothing outside the laws of physics is actually impossible.

Andy: 0:07

Welcome to Career-view Mirror, the automotive podcast that goes behind the scenes with key players in the industry looking back over their careers so far, sharing insights to help you with your own journey. Im your host Andy Follows. Ross Forder, listeners . After four and a half years helping Tesla to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy, Ross realised that the unsustainable food industry also urgently required disruption. And so, in 2017, he left Tesla and founded the vegan fast food brand Halo Burger. Halo Burger now has sites in Brixton, Shoreditch and Brighton and is planning its first full scale restaurant. Ross was part of the original sales team that launched the Tesla Model S into the market. His ambition, dedication and competitive nature aligned perfectly with the rapid scaling of the business and saw him advance from his initial role as a Product Specialist to running London's key Tesla stores at Westfield and then Chiswick and culminated in him running sales and delivery training for Western Europe and the Middle East. In our conversation, we talk about how an incredible stroke of luck landed him on his original chosen path only for him to eventually become disillusioned, how his approach proved more valuable than his experience, and his competitive nature drove his early success. In one of his first roles. He openly talks about his increasing self awareness and how that resulted in paradigm shifts along the way. And he shares how a comment from a friend made him realise that he needed to join Tesla. We discussed his rapid progression through the ranks in that hyper scaling business, and the parallels between Tesla's mission and that of the business he has founded Halo Burger. I had the pleasure and privilege to work alongside Ross at Tesla, and I'm delighted to be able to share his story so far with you. I recommend you check out Halo Burgers Instagram @haloburgeruk for photo evidence of what timeout described as vegan junk food at its junkiest. And if you're anywhere near Brixton or Shoreditch in London, or Brighton on the south coast of the UK, try them out for yourselves. I hope you enjoy listening to Ross's career story. And as always, I look forward to hearing what resonates with you.

Aquilae Academy: 2:45

This episode of Career-view Mirror is brought to you by the Aquilae Academy. At the Academy we turn individual development into a team sport. We bring together small groups of leaders from non competing organisations to form their very own academy team. We build strong connection between team members and creates a great environment for sharing and learning. We introduce the team to content that can help them tackle their current challenges, and we hold them accountable to take the actions they decide about priorities. We say we hold our team member speaks to the fire of their best intentions. We do this internationally with teams across the world. If you'd like to learn more about the Academy, go to www.aquilae.co.uk

Andy: 3:31

Hello, Ross and welcome and where are you coming to us from today?

Ross Forder: 3:35

Hello, thanks, Andy. Today I'm coming from Poole in Dorset.

Andy: 3:40

Ah, the south coast by the ocean.

Ross Forder: 3:42

Absolutely.

Andy: 3:43

And is that where you're from? I've got a feeling it is? Is that where you're born?

Ross Forder: 3:48

Yes. So it's certainly pretty much as well from I was born in Dorset, this house and Poole specifically with adults that I moved to I think when I was a year and a half I was absolutely in the sticks before don't remember it was sort of sort of sort of farm kind of esque sights but but now yeah, we're in I'm in Poole and here for the weekend. So we have a fake Christmas my girlfriend's from Canada and she's flying back next week. I can't afford to join her for Christmas so we're having a fake Christmas at my my parents place the place we grew up in down in all this

Andy: 4:19

lovely lovely and I've got to give a shout out to my brother then if you're mentioning Poole because he works in Poole. He sells vans in Poole for I better not say the name. So tell me about your early days then growing up and the environment you are in and the family situation.

Ross Forder: 4:35

Yeah so I guess I'm quite fortunate count myself quite lucky to have grown up in Poole I guess beautiful beaches down here and we used to sort of go to the beach as kids. You got a nice mix was your Bournemouth which is sort of everything you need facility wise, decent sort of nightlife etc. But then you've got just the countryside and just a handful of miles away beautiful sort of Dorset countryside and then you've got the beaches so definitely grew up with a fish Is he to nature I guess which are carried through down and very much love the beach, love the ocean. You're sort of living in London now as I do, definitely, definitely miss this and the joy coming home but for memories of being close to sort of nature down here,

Andy: 5:12

lovely. It is a beautiful beautiful county Dorset when you drive into it from, say from London or from those northern counties you see the hills and and then eventually you see the sea and it is a marvellous place. I'm not surprised you enjoy going back there and enjoyed growing up there. Did you have brothers and sisters with you growing up?

Ross Forder: 5:32

Yeah, so I've got a younger sister. We absolutely hated each other during our upbringing. Yeah, absolutely. It was it was terrible. So yeah, it morphed. It went from sort of just you know, toddlers are all sort of young young kids sort of hating each other and arguing over who gets the armrest in the car, or who gets the TV remote, sort of stroppy teenagers and always all over the place. And that was a tough period for us as well. And now actually got really well versed and stuff now we're like, really close. And we, you know, open books to each other can find can find each other and everything. But yeah, it was a handful for our parents where I feel quite sorry for

Andy: 6:09

what was the age gap? Ross?

Ross Forder: 6:12

Two years. So I'm the older brother,

Andy: 6:14

you're the older brother. I'm sure you're not? Well, you're not i You are not the only pair of siblings who, who behaved like that.

Ross Forder: 6:24

I feel so I used to give her a hard time. And then she would just be reached out with. Yeah.

Andy: 6:30

But what's wonderful as you're getting on now, and you're open book with each other and got a valuable relationship? Absolutely. I'm always curious. I enjoy these conversations about the childhood phase understanding where people started from what they had visibility of from a career perspective, what jobs had you seen? What were your parents doing?

Ross Forder: 6:51

Yes, good question. So my dad was a was a finance director. So he was he was actually a founding director at Jet two.com. Yes, yes, that's a low cost northern airline. It's sort of a north of the UK equivalent of Ryan and almost, and was sort of finance director of sort of some large firms before that, as well. And I just remember, my dad would just work crazy hours. So he'd have a sort of very intense day job. And he'd often sort of disappear into the office at home, as well as sort of during the long hours at work. And he would do that because also my parents had their own their own company. So they had a party shop when I was a teenager, so they actually had a bricks and mortar shop. So balloons, cake decorations, party wares, and that was one of my first jobs segwaying into sound effects my career. So one of my first jobs was inflating helium balloons in my parents party shop and selling fireworks or whatever else I was doing there.

Andy: 7:51

Okay, let's just step in Ross, because so you that's very entrepreneurial. Your parents are entrepreneurial. So you had sight of that. And you had sight of some very hard work being put in also quite an interesting transition from owning a party shop, to co founding an airline.

Ross Forder: 8:09

Yes, yeah. Well, I guess my dad had, he'd always been sort of driven to be successful in the sort of typical career world sort of working someone else working, working his way up the ladder, which he did relatively successfully. And that sort of culminated his last job before leaving the typical career path was the finance director at dark group who were the owners of jetblue.com. But yeah, he they'd always sort of wanted to own their own business, and they get so they would have had an entrepreneurial spark within themselves. They work together a moment way down. Yeah. So they had a party shop, which was fun. And then my dad that also had a party party, where's distribution business? So my dad owned a company that would basically distribute my mom shop, and they would supply party goods to, to to party shops across the country or online shops as well.

Andy: 8:58

Ah, very good. And is that are they still going doing that now? Or is that

Ross Forder: 9:02

yeah, well, my mom's are trying to she's so they weren't they sold the shop a number of years ago, but my dad still has the party party business creative party. So

Andy: 9:13

shout out to them as well. A little plug, little play. Native party. What about school? Ross? How was school for you? What are your memories of that time? And what sort of a student way?

Ross Forder: 9:26

Yeah, so I've I have fond memories of the early years of school I guess sort of years, one through one through five before sort of the teenage years kick in boys have fun, fun sort of memories there and enjoy sports days and just generally got on with classmates and don't remember there being any dramas, and then teenagers hit my hair was even better than that. It is now so long, obviously comes with bullying and nothing's just sort of extraordinary but you know, name calling and all that kind of stuff. And I was quite sensitive at the time. I guess it's not have early teenagers are 1213 went to an all boys school. So I want to transition to that boy School, which is my high school effectively, your rate, it would have been sort of, you know, you sort of youngest in the entire school in terms of your group, super red hair. And in the in the younger year groups, you have to wear these disgusting green blazers. So pretty row wasn't terrible. But yes, you know, rough around the edges first couple of years at high school. But something changed. I don't know what happened in the attend, whether it's as simple as psychologically as transitioning from the blazer to a sweater, which was slightly less embarrassing to be walking around school corridors in plus learning to put a bit of hair wax in my hair and try and improve the appearance and what I guess suddenly, I just had a completely renewed confidence and the name calling kind of stopped. And I guess because I stopped being bothered by it almost, and suddenly sort of have more friends and basically went from the sort of rough around the edge of space for a couple of years to really enjoying school. And so from years 10 up through to the top of Sixth Form, I have very, very fond memories, really enjoyed it still still good friends with the guys are sort of hung out with them. And actually really enjoyed being an all boys school, which I didn't think I was going to initially for the obvious reasons for not being co Ed. But actually it was awesome. Because you know, you're not distracted by the ladies in the class. You know, you're not having to put on a front because you're distracted in that set, no one to impress no one to address exactly that. Exactly. That you could just be completely yourself you just having a laugh and the guy's cracking on the studies. And yeah, I really, really enjoyed it. And we had an old go school, just just down the road. And you know, there was connections in some of the classes I think we did driver, and the acting classes were connected. So we'd go to the girls school, they come to us and so you have the connection with with your girl school, but you just get to be yourself for the overwhelming majority the time with with your mates.

Andy: 11:56

Really interested to know, just curious what happened that year 10 You sound curious as well, not necessarily having it, you know, being to put your finger on what it was. But that sounds like you became more popular, then more relaxed. He said, was it possibly because you weren't bothered about it? So maybe it got, you know, it wasn't worth teasing you about it anymore, because you didn't seem to react at all. Interesting.

Ross Forder: 12:19

Yeah, a few things changed. I mean, some of this is gonna sound so superficial, but genuine. I mean, at that age, at that time, I think it made a difference. So just changing from that not being the youngest kids in school anymore, to switching into that blazer thinker probably had a haircut, I went from sort of the 90s style curtains into sort of spiky hair. And I changed my friendship group, which was another key piece. So I changed my friendship group. And I think all of those factors combined at the same time, and then suddenly there's sort of sold I clearly had but wasn't out there. Sort of completely change. And I was walking down the corridors of all this renewed confidence, friends with more people having a great time just enjoying school.

Andy: 12:58

How did the new friendship group compare and what made was different,

Ross Forder: 13:03

more sociable, more outgoing, and no disrespect to the guys I was friends with before but was very much more introverted, and sort of school and studies focused, and maybe just sort of not as focused on having fun in the social life and going to parties and that kind of thing. So it's way too introverted. So Sunday, I was with a bunch of extroverts that love partying and socialising, and they just, it just drew it out to me.

Andy: 13:27

Sounds like you'd got in with the cool kids.

Ross Forder: 13:29

Yes. Well, they'd like to think so. Sure. They'd say that. Yeah.

Andy: 13:33

So you mentioned studying, how was that going? How are you? As you know, on the on the academic side? Yeah. So

Ross Forder: 13:40

initially, I, I never applied myself as much as I should have at school. And basically, around the age of 16, I had this grand idea of wanting to become a lawyer or solicitor, but without actually, you know, give me really any thought as to what that was going to entail studies wise. I just liked the idea of guests being in court and I guess the theatre, a theatre around it, which will segue into in a second. But I did work experience local solicitors branch and did enjoy it. I guess I came to the realisation that what I enjoyed was sort of isn't some terrible budget, generally, at the time when I was 16. I probably just enjoyed the draw reversal. And then there are no realise they're actually okay. What I really enjoy is drama and acting. And so that's kind of that was my sort of big focus at the time, I guess was was doing sort of the acting classes, both in school doing studying theatre during them sort of outside of school as well. And my grand idea at the time, was, I'm going to go into acting and become an actor, classic.

Andy: 14:43

So you were that was the direction you were going energy came towards the end of your school years.

Ross Forder: 14:48

It was a quite simple, it's just what I enjoyed the most. It's just simply it was the subject matter I enjoyed the most. I found it was sort of liberating, refreshing, being able to chat wasn't just good creative energy. And I just really enjoyed it. And I just didn't find that enjoyment in any of the other topics on the study.

Andy: 15:07

What level did you take it to at school?

Ross Forder: 15:10

So a level? Yeah, so today that was the A Levels did psychology history and theatre studies did studies I enjoyed the most, I also got the best marks in psychology, I really enjoyed psychology for subject matter, but it absolutely personally tested it. For the amount of weight given to it being memory exercise, you'd have to just remember this study that person that day, this outcome, those parameters, and it was just you're just memorising list of information, which wasn't really my jam at the time. But I would find the subject matter fascinating, I would find the actual concepts of psychology fascinating. Just when it came to the exams and having to regurgitate all the minutiae I didn't enjoy. And then history, again, found fascinating very much enjoyed sort of the story nature of history, I guess, understanding some of the historical politics, and sort of some of the power that was existing historically, and how that's changed over time, I found that very enjoyable, did better at history, that sense that I had done psychology, but still, theatre studies was the one that was just enjoying the most.

Andy: 16:14

So when it came to leave school, what did you do then?

Ross Forder: 16:17

By grand idea that, well, I took a gap year, so I went, went to work for a bank at the time. So got some, save some cash, and went out. And we've set cash went out to California, for the first time in my life, for I think we went for two weeks or possibly even a month actually, like dance was my first introduction to California, which will comes semi relevant, as we go on, became pretty quickly obsessed with Los Angeles and the beach, the beach having come from pool, it's fit pool and steroids. Sorry, I have to be year round sunshine. And, you know, Jim's on the beach and surfing. And it's like, we get waves around pulling books, you know, once a year, we're exaggerating a bit once a year, but compared to Southern California, where it's just all the time. So you sort of go out with with this love and the affinity of beaches and the oceans. And you know, you're very much enjoying a grown up a pool and you go to California like, wow, okay, this is this is next level. But that's really what I did like, the sort of first job, it was just sort of data entry dropped for a mainstream investment bank, they've got a headquarters down here. And so that's why that was my first sort of, quote, unquote, serious job. I was there for a year. And considering it was a data entry role. I don't remember considering sort of what I just said about what I enjoyed at school, I got on with it, okay. Consider it, you know, just literally, you know, what would what would be quite stale sort of data entry work on a daily basis? I was okay with it.

Andy: 17:48

I think, What's your intention? Was your intention to just earn some money to go away?

Ross Forder: 17:54

Partly that pot? Did you see Did you see

Andy: 17:57

it as the beginning of your career? Or was it now I'm going to do this first, but you were still thinking of acting?

Ross Forder: 18:02

I was also Yeah, exactly. So I was actually just biting a bit of time, I think so I wasn't sort of, I wanted to go into acting. So I was probably thinking about, okay, how do I do this probably start clients to drum schools, but just, you know, my friends were all going off to universities, they're going off to university to study, you know, economics or geography or whatever else they were doing, there's just nothing within that realm that was grabbed me at the time. So I was just don't take a year out, I'll lend some money, maybe go somewhere funds, what's California, and, and just figure out what I want to do. And during that year, I figured out that my next move was to start applying for drama schools, because the acting dream was still still alive in my head. And that's what I started doing. So I started applying for drama schools, didn't do many auditions. I didn't know how to apply myself at this point in time at all, quite honestly, I was still quite immature, mentally. At the age of 18, I didn't know how to apply myself didn't really know how to do and when I was going to auditions, I wasn't doing anywhere near anywhere near enough research, or strategic thinking as to what I should be doing in these auditions. I was just turning up and reading a couple of reading, reading, reading some lines, and then I get knocked back. And they wouldn't even take me to the next stage. And sort of at this point in my life, I didn't understand why I just I just put a huge blackspots I just couldn't see the way to apply myself and maybe find a bit more success with these things at the time. So quite funnily I, my parents at the time were like, look, like just we think you should grapple with this. Try and figure something out. And so I started I was I was aiming for Rada and all these sort of top top folks and just and just getting knocked back completely unsurprisingly having done sort of no preparation what's worked for the industry, which is just wild you know? What was I thinking young Ross we just want a time machine back and go Dude, come on. I wouldn't change anything for the world. But I probably have a little word myself as a, just a few blind spots. So this is quite strange though. So I basically apply For a sort of a pseudo Acting School University of North, at the time, it does actually have accreditation, you clan, which is the University of Central Lancashire, I have no idea how I came onto that I'd never been up north, I had no, literally never been at North at this point in my life, I have no idea how I stumbled across it at the time. But I did. And I and I applied. And I got it, which was interesting, because when I actually so so then sort of applied now that the no turnips, the gap is finished. I've got into this sort of drama school, university of north and I turn up with a day, and everyone starts talking about the auditions they've done to get in. And I'm like, I never auditioned to get in. And I quickly find out that absolutely every single other person on the course has gone through a full audition process to get in. And I haven't. And what I discover is, I'm an accident, and they've just accidentally sent me an acceptance letter, and it rolled me onto the course. And so I've there on start day, like they wrote me, I'm with everyone else, and the course leaders cottoned onto this, because the words get out, because, you know, some of these guys are a little bit annoyed that I've just been given a letter, they've had to go through a full audition process, you know, round one, round two finals, whatever else I've just turned up in, I didn't audition me. I'd say that the course leaders caught on to this. And they, I mean, I'm not sure what they would have been able to do, even if it was totally terrible, that they took me off into cider and said, Well, you know, you're gonna have to audition for us now, for this sport. And you know, how much that was just like, you know, we need to at least put you through the ropes and put you through the, for the mill a bit just because that's the right thing to do, or how much they were serious instantly. You know, if you suck at this audition, we're gonna tear up the Ovilus and send you home right now. Not sure, but maybe fate was on my side that day. Oh,

Andy: 21:53

brilliant story. Yeah,

Ross Forder: 21:55

it was wild. To think about it, my friends are still still your best friend is from the acting courses. And also my some of my best friends are from the university days in that course. And we always joke about that, because it seems like wow, that was I was so drained my friends then it's such such a big, you know, such a part of it. That three year experience. There is just so awesome.

Andy: 22:14

So you actually enjoyed it you the three year experience. And yeah, you enjoyed that.

Ross Forder: 22:20

I mean, back then the tuition fees were a lot lower. So University was a lot more about socialising and just having a good time. So I had a phenomenal time there. Yeah, the first time I had been up north was when I was day one at university. So I'd never been up there, which got this acceptance letter, I'd never been to audition.

Andy: 22:38

Um, what was it? What were you doing there? Then? Was there a lot of practical acting classes?

Ross Forder: 22:45

Yeah, that's sort of that's what I enjoyed the most I think it was, it was the overwhelming majority of that course, was physical acting, it wasn't sort of the, the writing piece or the studying piece. Sure, that was studying. But yeah, 90% of it was walking the walk. And it was just so fun. I just, I just absolutely loved it. You know, you get to play different characters, you get to be creative, there's just like an energy, a flow that you get into, that's just really fun. I was never particularly good at it, I'm happy to, you know, then my ego would have actually stopped me from saying such a thing that, you know, it's just it's so obvious. But uh, you know, it was never particularly good at it. But I did particularly enjoy it. I think actually, a lot of my experience, doing an acting degree, did segue into into getting the job a test, though, which we'll come on to.

Andy: 23:31

I am interested what you took away from that acting experience in that course that you did, and how you've been able to leverage that and apply it in, in other walks of life since so definitely. When we come on to that, let's let's go into that, because

Ross Forder: 23:49

it's not typical. But I would argue still today, a lot wiser, less eager than I had, then that particular roles. It's very relevant. We'll come on to that.

Andy: 23:58

Yeah, definitely excited to hear that. So I'm imagining this is only fueling your enthusiasm for a career in acting. You're enjoying there. Yeah, absolutely. So

Ross Forder: 24:09

you know, it's always cringe thinking, like, my thought process was so wildly still immature at the time. So otherwise, but yeah, like, in my head, I'm thinking, you know, gonna come out the other side of this. And yeah, sure, it's hard to get a job as an actor, but I will get a job as an actor, and I'll be in continuous work, which is just, you know, it can happen, right? Nothing's impossible. It can happen, for sure. But the likelihood of it happening is very low. And I think if for those that can't make it happen, you've really got to know your niche. You've got to work really hard. You've got to know how to strategize and sell yourself within the industry. And I didn't have any of that. I just thought I was gonna make it you know, almost like turning up to these auditions and having done no practice whatsoever. It just it happened. crazier things have happened. But lo and behold, it didn't happen to me at that time.

Andy: 24:58

They're the exception rather than the rule Exactly. And it seems to be in error, you can't just work really hard. Like you can in some jobs, you know that if you go and you work hard, you can get on. But there's much more to it than that. So you're still thinking, this is going to be your route forward. So talk us through then Post University and starting your career as an actor.

Ross Forder: 25:24

So Post University, I moved to London, with friends that I've been to school with down in pool. So we will move to London, it's the big move by friends from university, it all sort of gone to Manchester and sort of stayed up north resides, come back to Down south with my friends in school moved to London. And one thing I should mention is, so I didn't get an agent in our law in our sort of final performance at school. Unsurprisingly, I was not that good. But so I didn't get an agent. So it was kind of I remember being, you know, still had a big ego on me at the time and sort of that that hurt, didn't know why again, not bit not being able to sort of like understand the situation. And again, it's all going to come very relevant when we get to towards where I'm at today. But just wasn't able to see sort of the mechanics of the problem and understand how I can at least put myself into a position where to put a better foot forward. So moved to London, and not taking life very seriously. At this point, I'm, you know, getting part time jobs in pubs not really applying myself to even try to do acting, part time jobs and clothing stores. So I think there's no problem with this, but I just was quite despondent at the time wasn't really applying myself in life, my friends, sort of get getting onto the larger investment banks and work with them in finance, getting serious jobs in the city. And I was the guy that was just you bumming around basically, at the time didn't didn't have a focus, even with the act, he wasn't just wasn't serious enough about it. So for the first time, I then decided to get a bit of strategy about it. So for a friend, they had introduced me to an acting agency, where I was able to go into an internship and my thought process there, for the first time has been strategic, what I wanted to do in my life was harness that. So if I go get a job at Vatican City, maybe then I could network. And if I increase my network, maybe that would actually help me even on the inside as an agent, maybe I can then segue into saying, actually, this is great guys. But I do want to do the acting now. And then at that point, you know, all these agents, casting directors and people in the industry, and if you know them, You therefore have a higher likelihood that they're going to choose you as long as you're half decent. So for the first time, like, okay, there's a bit of strategy here, maybe this, maybe this will work. And then simultaneously, I decided to study personal training. And the theory there was, that's, you know, that's an ethical job. So so so for the rest, I'm thinking ethically, so here's an ethical job, where I can improve the health of others, which is good. And that will get me out of bed in the morning. The body's actually reasonable as well, that's great. And that gives me the flexibility to audition. If this actor Yeah, agency sort of strategy pulls off, which it didn't.

Andy: 28:02

I was on the edge of my seat. Well, I do know I do I, you know, I do know how these things end up. But it sounds I was convinced, as you were telling me that Ross, I'm thinking this is this sounds half sensible. So you are going to train as a personal trainer, combine that with working at an acting agency. So you could do both at the same time, and still have the flexibility to go for auditions if you

Ross Forder: 28:30

if you wanted to. So for the first time of my life, I have applied some strategic thinking to the desired outcome that I'm going for. And, you know, right decision in several ways, but yet didn't work.

Andy: 28:44

How long did you persevere for with that,

Ross Forder: 28:47

I must have been in that internship role for maybe three or six months. And at basically seeing the industry from the inside, sort of opened my eyes and sort of, I guess, or lost some of the glaze. And sort of you just you see, to see the industry for what it is. And the agency was working was great. The boss that I had, there was a great guy. So it was nothing with those guys at all, but it was just sort of seeing how cutthroat it is, how superficial it can be, which was you know, but it sort of I did it you know, as blind to this and sort of it kind of opened my eyes in that sense to is this what I want to pursue. And and that was working for what Overgaard did and still do is great internship position for a great agent at the time that he's moved on to within the industry to other roles now, but he was great, the axes was great, but just sort of within that seeing the rest of the industry, I was like, Wow, maybe this isn't for me. Because also I've got this ethical spark with personal training. I'm thinking I would prefer to be doing something ethical probably

Andy: 29:42

was that the first time that had been that deliberate Ross, the ethical, you mentioned ethical with the personal training was that the first time you recognise that as something that a value of yours if you like,

Ross Forder: 29:55

yeah, so I think it's segwayed out of I'd had a passion for exercise and and supplements and sort of nutrition, although it's still like retreats, but it's still training, well take supplements, I was obsessively researching drinking clean water, I'd always had sort of a health component to my life but exercise really hard during my teenage years, I was doing sort of five bootcamp sessions a week, you know, sort of would love school sports days, so, so it was very much enjoyed sort of the the health side, never thought I'd get into personal training or do anything with it, just something I enjoyed growing up, and sort of that segwayed into passive trading, but then I realised this is a good thing to do for people. And that sort of realisation, there was a sort of an ethical thing to do. It was kind of a lightbulb moment, for me at the time, which was, ah, this is this is an extra motivation that I hadn't had before, I never really thought about doing something ethical, never considered motivation. And so sort of segwayed from I enjoy health, one sec, this actually helps other people, this is a good thing. And that was sort of like a realisation for me at the time.

Andy: 30:54

So you're at an agency that was rapidly you're in a reputable part of the business with people you respected. However, it gave you a vantage point to view the industry that you wanted to get into and took the glaze away.

Ross Forder: 31:09

Yet, while simultaneously really realising this is when I realised I wasn't good at it. Okay. I'm just realising this. Now, my ego has been getting in the way and thinking I was good. I'm not. I'm not absolutely shocking, but I'm not good.

Andy: 31:29

What? What? What allowed that penny to drop?

Ross Forder: 31:33

I don't know. I think I busted. That's simply just been. Okay. Yeah, good question. So I was going through a bit of an awakening period behind the scenes in my life at the same time. So this was one of

Andy: 31:47

that theatrical language you use. So behind the scenes backstage? I

Ross Forder: 31:53

can't get rid of it. I'll get rid of it. So, yes, a really good question. Because simultaneously, I'm having a bit of a bit of an awakening, actually. And the way I'm viewing the world is changing dramatically. Even my political views at the time did a full 180. I was very, very conservative. Growing up, my parents were conservative, we had conservative Garden Parties in my house, very, very concerned, very ultra, Tory Boyd growing up. And through some sort of documentaries, and some other things I've been watching reading online, or basically in this period of full 180 and became super liberal, like, super liberal, and almost verging on a hippie within just literally a two month period. This is all happening at the same time. And within that, I became more humble. I started to recognise my ego, I started for the first time, my life, instead of the insecurities holding me back from understanding my shortcomings, I was able to pull back the veil and go, it's okay, what shortcomings, let's recognise that this is probably the stuff that's been holding you back from doing poor auditions, for not realising you, you know, you're not that good at acting. And just, it's fine. It's okay. It's okay to realise these things. And so I'm sort of having this, this recognition to my own ego, simultaneously, but having one easy shift towards being a lot more liberal, recognising that I'm not good at acting, therefore, understanding that doing something ethical is a good thing. And I just, this is the time I'm having this major shift. And what happens is I then dropped the acting, or they go full force into personal training. And I've now gone from like, ultra conservative, with a huge ego or me, and massive blind spots, to still having blind spots, but recognising the blind spots I had, the ego is now a recognition in my life, I now understand sort of what that is, and the barriers that's been causing me. I have huge political change in my mind. I'm a lot more open as an individual, and are now just doing personal training, because it's the right thing to do. And I'm helping people.

Andy: 33:49

Brilliant. What a great little passage there. Thanks for sharing that. Ross. And so getting into personal training, you already been very keen on exercise and very focused on nutrition as a teenager. How did you formalise that into turning it into a job?

Ross Forder: 34:08

Yeah, so basically, I started this obviously was when I was just initially looking at it to to just be part time thing when I'm doing auditions but I've dropped the acting thing now. And also because the SE Ross there have been previous before this sort of consciousness shift I'd had was I paid for the personal training course I didn't do it for like a year. I was just bummed me around, didn't do it for like a year. And so now is like, right doing it. This is it. This is this is what I'm doing. So I've been the person training and got a job at a mainstream Gym, in Clapham and basically quite quickly became one of the sort of the busiest personal trainers in the gym in terms of number of clients. And there's obviously guys that have been there for a long time years and within just a small amount of months. I've got more client hours than than anyone else in the gym. And I'm starting to think why, you know, I'm not the most experienced but a bit of humility about me now, about time, I'm not the most experienced guy in this gym, I'm probably not the best. I'm not, I'm not not the best personal trainer in this ship. But I'm the busiest, busiest personal trainer, why is that? And the reason why was the relationships I was building in rapid time, with the customers coming into the gym, because that's where they just speak, you know, because of the acting sort of experience, I was just very outgoing, able to shift my personality to different characters, and just get on with just anyone I'd be, I'd be able to level with them, improvise, become a person that they can be congruent with and vibe with. And I was just just making relationships very quickly. And what we'd have is we'd have customers signing up to the gym and get free sessions. And then I would, I would give them sort of some free coaching, when they come in. And I was just very quickly becoming friends who's some of these folks. And then because you haven't developing a rapport very quickly, these folks are high numbers, end up started working with you. And you know, it'd be good friends with something. And that was the key, you know, it wasn't I was, I still obviously doing some half decent training with them. But I was not at the level of some of these other guys. They've been super experienced in the courses, I was still learning from them. But I was developing relationships and building rapport with customers, because of some of the acting experience being able to just to talk level with people improvise, and have a comedian type personality was just able to sort of be congruent with a bunch of different people that ended up being busy. And that was a lightbulb moment for me as well, that,

Andy: 36:35

yeah, sorry, it's not about it's not enough to be good at the training at delivering the training or any particular job, not just personal training is not enough to be good at the job. If you're responsible for sales, as you were, as you were, then you're responsible for how how many clients you attracted, part of it is being good at the job, but but part of it is also being good at that attraction pieces. What was the business model there? Ross, if you just say just briefly explain how that would have worked for you.

Ross Forder: 37:06

So self employed. So basically, it was a rental model. So we would pay X amount to the gym. And then we would then keep what we would earn from from the customers from the clinic clients effectively. So yeah, there was there was pressure in the sense that you didn't have the security of salary it was you were totally self employed, in a sense,

Andy: 37:26

you could hang around the gym as much as you liked. And you could get to know people, they got to know you. And if they wanted to you which sounds like they did, and it's understandable, there's someone who knows you, it's understandable that they would warm to you that they would then ask you for a bit more formal help and some paid out, they'd want to come on board as a client, and then the gym would feed you some leads in the form of free, you know, free, you've got to do this free introduction induction. And presumably, they were shared out equally among the trainers.

Ross Forder: 37:58

Exactly. So suddenly, I realising that actually, I have at least some abilities basic ability to sell. And I'd never thought about that never thought about sales job. Never thought I was good at selling. Actually, if anything, you sort of look at selling and find it very uncomfortable, that I can't do that stuff, you know, high closing, and I can't do that. But then realising just naturally, by building rapport, by, you know, just following up doing some of the basics, developing the connection with people that that lead to sales. So it's exactly what you've just mentioned to describe. So suddenly, I've got a realisation that actually, there is an ability there to sell just by virtue of developing relationships with others and having a service that they may want.

Andy: 38:39

Is that how you define sales? Now, how would you define sales now?

Ross Forder: 38:45

Great question. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's having a good having good sort of service that someone may desire, but it's the ability to develop a connection with that person, for them to trust you enough to purchase or to move forward for that. Good. Yes.

Andy: 39:02

Yeah, I was introduced a while ago to this concept of people need to know like, and trust you. Yeah. Before they're going to buy from you. And that's what you had this wonderful environment where you could get to know people they could get to know you, like you and trust you, without any threat to them. You know, they've come to work out you're around, they get to do that you get to do that with them until such point as they feel comfortable to engage you totally and,

Ross Forder: 39:32

you know, we'd really enjoy our sessions would you know, obviously, they get a good workout, but we both genuinely just be catching up. You're having a laugh catching up, but also sort of aggressively exercising at the same time. So it was Yeah, and I enjoyed it.

Andy: 39:45

It doesn't stop it doesn't stop once the sale is done. It was the delivery of the training was an enjoyable experience. So that personal side, they weren't just doing the exercise they were enjoying the time with you looking forward to it,

Ross Forder: 40:00

absolutely. Our friends, most of them, so we're gonna be hanging out outside of work, you know, the recessions, I won't go into detail, but the recessions where certain individuals would have had some fairly catastrophic news that week, and they would just come in, and we'd end up chatting for most of it. You know, it's in some of the instances, I'd say, you know, we're not, I'm not, I'm not charging for now. This is sort of me, you know, that, but we'd come in, and we just end up chatting about a circumstance, they might have just been through that that week, that was particularly tough. Um, and, yeah, so that's, that was happening. But and then the other thing to mention there is that I was also I was also mentally just on a mission to be the to be number one, I wanted to be the most successful there, I had some friendly competition with other personal trainers there, I was really fired up having sort of dropped the acting and been like, right, if it's personal training, then by heck, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make this one work. And I was just so fired up to also sort of just be the best be successful, finally grab hold of something and do something with my life. That I think that that motivation really carried through as well. We'll be friendly competition with the other PTS there and I was just actually fired up to make sure that I was, I was actually doing sort of my eyes. Now,

Andy: 41:16

that's reminded me of a time at Goodwood Festival of Speed. So I want to let's, let's touch on that, when we get to it. What was the definition then, of being the best when it came to the personal trainer role?

Ross Forder: 41:32

quite narrow mindedly, admittedly, at the top of the time for me was just either business personal trainers in this gym, and that was quite narrow minded, you know, I didn't want to further myself, I was doing extra courses, I didn't want to become a better personal trainer. But at the time, for whatever reason, I think, because I hadn't, I hadn't experienced success, my life at that point. I hadn't experienced success yet. So it was in my mind, I hadn't, you know, there's little wins, I could have really probably looked at, but I hadn't really experienced career success at all. And I'd been sort of, you know, despondent and sort of not taking life too seriously. And suddenly, I have this career that, that I can. And so, yeah, I just applied myself in a fashion that I'd not applied myself to anything else I've ever done in my life at that point.

Andy: 42:14

So you demonstrated, you demonstrated an aptitude for it for bringing on customers, you had a really clear, clear metric. If I'm her busiest, then that that's good. That's success, that all makes sense.

Ross Forder: 42:29

And also interesting, you're not being you're not being trained how to sort of take on clients, the training, you get to personal trainers, how to become a better coach, or better, you know, learn new techniques, learn new processes, it's not how to develop rapport, not how to sell mortgage, not how to sort of be a more successful financially personal trainer. So I didn't have anyone above me showing me how to do that no one knows that all caps come from myself and my own desire to be successful. And figure that figure that out. And I think that was important, you know, is the is the self the self starter stuff, I had no one above me that was, you know, my dad at the time, he wasn't sort of coaching me or anything like that I didn't have anyone it had to come from me. And so, again, that sort of comes through a bit more relevant later on. But it's the self starter piece that's so important. And what Tesla specifically, were looking for the time when they when they hire folks that I had to have in that environment to be successful.

Andy: 43:22

I'm fascinated by how much we can learn ourselves when we want to when we're interested, when we were hooked. On it, you you'd seen that you had some aptitude for this, you were bringing in clients, you realised what that could mean? Were you conscious at the time of, I want to learn more about how to sell how to, if you'd like put a structure behind this thing that I seem to be quite good at, or certainly seem to be better than the other trainers who've been here longer. So were you consciously wanting to learn to do that more for not formally is the wrong word, but deliberately, if you like so,

Ross Forder: 44:04

in all honesty, I wasn't. And the reason I wasn't, is because the bumming around Ross hadn't finished his job yet. He was he was way ahead saying, Hey, this is great. But you're going to do this rest of your life. You know, there's a world out there, your house makes it We've been travelling and got back from full week parties in Thailand. That sounds quite good, doesn't it? Like don't take this too seriously. You know, at some point, you're going to want to go and do that. And so any sort of you know, there was a level I kind of had this experience that I've just mentioned, sort of, thankfully was quite successful in that sense, but I very quickly hit a ceiling where I didn't have the intention or the motivation to take it further which is interesting. I'd kind of gone up this level with like a rocket ship, like an absolute rocket went from zero to you know, 100 and in three months, but all the all the levels was above that I wasn't interested in at the time, at the time. And so I wasn't actually a personal trainer for a very long time. I can't remember now, it may have been a year and a half, maybe two years, something like this. And the itch, I had to go and see some of the world was just too great. And I yeah, like I said, I learned a lot. I had some success, which is great. But it wasn't enough for me to sort of stay there for an extended period of time, and continue to develop myself that can't that comes later. And so ultimately, I left not only the gym, but I left the UK a bit to one way trip to Thailand. Okay, and sorry, parents, because they had an absolute meltdown at this point.

Andy: 45:40

That was gonna be my next question.

Ross Forder: 45:43

The first time this side is actually applied themselves, he's being successful. He's financially stable, and then they're like, No, thanks. I'm out here. What are you doing? What my trip to Thailand? I don't know when I'll be back. Or if we'll be back by

Andy: 45:55

that's a bit of a shock. Especially when you becoming a hippie.

Ross Forder: 46:00

So exactly. And I can

Andy: 46:02

imagine that you've been to the north, is that not enough?

Ross Forder: 46:07

You've been to Blackfoot? Come on. It's

Andy: 46:09

the same. So how old? were you when you went to Thailand? Can you remember?

Ross Forder: 46:13

So this would have been? It's been about 25? Since 2011. So yeah, so again, this this hippie staff, the, like, the paradigm shift I've had, this sort of was what sort of dragged me out. And at the same time, in all honesty, that paradigm shift was strong enough, that is gonna sound so nuts kind of is that I was that was in my head, I was, quite again, just being fully transparent here. Pretty anti establishment at the time, despondent with the current affairs of the world with government, not in a super extreme fashion, but a little bit too heavy on that side. For sound balance, really, I've just gone too far, you know, in a paradigm shift, I just gone, for me, at least now just going a bit too far. And I can't sort of come back to some sort of equilibrium yet. So I've gone a bit too far. And that's one of one trip to Thailand. And at the same time, I'm saying, I'm going to book a one way trip to Thailand, I never going to work for a large corporation ever in my entire life, I probably would never live in London again, because that's just the city of that exacerbates all of these sort of problems that I see in the world. Now this time. So I'm not I'm not going to, I'm not going to do that. And at this time, some of the problems one of the problems I mentioned that I'm seeing and sort of becoming very despondent, about sort of screw society kind of stuff is the because after I'd seen such documentaries as Who Killed the Electric car, and seeing the Eevee, one electric car, which had been ripped out of customers hands at the time, you know, there's there's literally they held a candlelight vigil for the electric car, because these cars were on lease. And they wanted to keep their electric cars, but they sort of sought sort of legal help to try and keep them. But the powers that be sort of forced them sort of out of people's hands. I think Elon Musk himself has mentioned, when house have you seen a candlelight vigil for someone's car, you know, learning about without going into sort of super deep without hope and learning about you through through the documentary Who Killed the Electric pricey some of these powers that be that have, you know, as one example, purposefully purchase battery patent technology, and throw it on a shelf to collect dust, because it's beneficial for them to do that. And at the time, sort of having this paradigm shift transformation and sort of really focusing on being ethical wouldn't of working with ethical thing and seeing that rage me. So that's kind of happening at the same time. And that's kind of when I start to see the issues of why we were promised, we've all the sci fi movies we used to watch in the 90s, electric cars by 2011. And we don't have any electric cars. Where are they? And so I'm sort of having that realisation. At the same time as I'm sort of going, you know, screw the system and screw the people that are doing this arm out kind of booking a one way trip to Thailand.

Andy: 48:58

And did someone mentioned a foam party or something?

Ross Forder: 49:02

Yeah, literally. My answer to this is going to pass in hardware into for the party. That was so what was it called a party for the party? Yeah. So yeah, sorry. Sorry. Go there.

Andy: 49:14

Who was with you? Ross, did you go on your own? On my own? Yeah. Did you know anybody in Thailand,

Ross Forder: 49:19

no one. I booked to one matrix Thailand, with the intention of not coming home potentially ever, not working for a large corporation in my life at any stage ever again. And not knowing anybody not knowing where I'd go, what I'd be and maybe just I'll find a hammock to tie up between two coconut farms level of coconuts for the rest of my life, potentially.

Andy: 49:40

Okay, it's a plan. It's a plan, or whatever. How was it their full Moon Party that why did you choose Thailand? Was it just something that had attracted you by that

Ross Forder: 49:50

housemates? Sort of sort of friends in England had sort of, a lot of them had been out and done this Full Moon Party and it's sort of you know, a rite of passage for a backpacker and She sounded awesome, super fun. And you get to sort of go and meet loads of new people. And for the school days, I love doing that just for the purpose of training. And I love getting out there speaking to people, meeting new people, just gives me energy. So I knew that that would be the case I didn't sort of I wasn't at all concerned with going out by myself. I always

Andy: 50:17

meet people at that. So what can you tell me about at that party, a full moon party.

Ross Forder: 50:22

So it was very similar. So the same beach same sort of set party setup, I went there for New Year's Eve. So specifically, it was New Year's Eve, but the full beam party happens on the exact same beach on a full moon, with the same bars and everything else. I don't think I can use that language. But it's necessary. Absolutely the wild, it's 1000s of 1000s of people from across the world worth three grand prix COVID era 1000s 1000s of people 10s of 1000s of people on one Beach, everyone's wearing next to nothing. You got neon paint with a view you're drinking out, you know, you don't know what you're drinking out of these sort of plastic buckets. It's just a wild wild time, super fun. And you just meet people from all over the world. And name a country, someone on that beaches from that country. And everyone is just so open, positive, friendly. And I'm in my element, because just there's also a load of other soda backpackers that are just like me to just want to go out there and meet new people have a good time. And the resulting sort of year and a half of travelling, which is quite a long time, I guess, was still probably the best time of my life. And so, you know, even though I went with this sort of wild idea and had left my success in my journey, it was still, as we'll see ultimately, the right decision to do. And I had the best time of my life and still have lifelong friends from from this trip.

Andy: 51:39

Am I over? Am I exaggerating or overthinking it? If I say that that party was the beacon that you were heading towards when you went to Thailand, was there? How long before you between landing in Thailand and attending that? Was that like the first year? Okay, yes. You're like a moth to a flame. So this party get raised, which does sound a fantastic, you know, you'd know, I might be on my own, but I'm going to go in, if you believe what you've been told, then I'm going to go and meet 1000s of like minded souls, and that's going to kick off my Thailand experience. It sounds brilliant. And then you had 18 months of travelling after

Ross Forder: 52:21

that. So it's not only a great moment, so the other one was getting into that university acting course, without any audition, which is one of those moments in my life, I look back one and go, who's up there that was sort of, you know, not specifically religious, but I'm certainly you know, potentially spiritual believe that could be something I'm just like, who was up there being like, just getting on that one, he needs it. To me, so let's get on that. It's something similar happened to me when I went out there. So I'm sorry, what a trip to Thailand. You know, absolutely no idea what I'm gonna be doing whatsoever apart from hopefully meeting some cool people and having a great time. And then within within four days, within four days of being in Thailand, I've met an Australian girl that we've hit, hit it off with, who ultimately becomes my girlfriend. She's and she's from Sydney, I've met a couple of guys who I just again, hit it off with absolute legends, still friends to this day from Sydney, and about a different group of guys, who are headed off with became friends with almost off the bat, also from Sydney. Within four days, I have a girlfriend in Sydney, two groups of friends and Sydney, one of those groups of friends, and I've got a job for you waiting as soon as you get there. And another of the group's friends during I've actually got a space in my apartment. So I've got an apartment, a job, but girlfriend and two groups of friends with in Sydney when the four days going to Thailand. And so I was like, Okay, well, I guess I'm getting Sydney. And so stayed in Thailand, went to Laos did a little bit more travelling maybe about three weeks, but then jumped on a plane, and then moved to

Andy: 53:53

Sydney. That is just fantastic. And to define your parents in the meantime. Further away,

Ross Forder: 54:02

exactly. Probably not relieved in that sense, but probably a little bit more relieved that I'm moving to a first world country and moving in with people and getting a job. So they're just really crazy that you know, how the coincidences or synchronicities, how they come across. And for me, that's without getting too deep that you know, that is a sign, you know, there's a sign for you. That is just crazy how some of these things happen in your life. And I just go well, that's my path. And that and that's now the path, I'm going to start walking them. So where that came from, is it coincidences or not? Maybe that's a conversation for another podcast,

Andy: 54:35

but he got a big chunk. I'd love to have a big chunk of time of the 18 months were spent in Sydney. Absolutely. What was the digit did you take the job that the guy had met head off?

Ross Forder: 54:47

Yeah. So I was just doing basic work so I don't I have regressed slightly in the in the sense that sort of have you not had the success as a personal trainer. I'd got a bit more serious about my career. And I take it take a step back and gone back to where it was. chose, you know, again, nothing wrong with these things, but I was just I was sort of, I was quite loose in my ambition. And so it sort of just, you know, getting your bar job here, I was doing some gardening stuff, which I really enjoyed garden maintenance, which actually really enjoyed being in nature. So even though it's hard work, I really enjoyed it. And I actually still have helped my parents in their garden and stuff today. But um, again, it was just, I was just walking through life, no ambition, again, at this point, I'm not going to work for a big company ever again, it's still the kind of that stuff going on. And I was just doing random little jobs with basically the intention of how long can I just keep up this lifestyle, because I was very much enjoying it, and travelled a bit more when the middle went to India, India and Indonesia, Fiji, just wanted to see as many countries as I could, at this time, meet as many people as I could at this time, and just the richness of experience, then, still would not today trade for the world, I would still recommend anyone to at least gap year, a month to month there, I'm okay. It's it's a different world that we live in now. But where possible, within safety sort of reasons. But the richness of experience that you can get, and the network that you can develop globally of friends and people that you know, in these countries is just, I found it very fulfilling, and still do to this day.

Andy: 56:14

So given how wonderful that was, how much you're enjoying it, how much you're getting out of it, what brought it to an end,

Ross Forder: 56:20

test aboard it to an end. To to segue into this. So it mentioned about seeing who killed the electric car, we have this paradigm shift was frustrated. Again, there's no transparency, I was frustrated with several aspects of the automotive industry at the time having held this technology back. And also just thinking, Where are the electric cars? You know, we're talking 2012 Now, come on, guys, were promised this stuff. When I was a kid watching sci fi movies, Sylvester Stallone, they all had electric cars, where are they, there was a follow up movie to Who Killed the Electric Car called Revenge of the electric car. This was 2011. So this is now when I'm out there, sort of seeing this follow up and in the follow up is Tesla with the Tesla original roadster. And the whole premise is Hey, guys, the electric cars back then they're not going to stop them this time. And so that was incredibly exciting to me, having had this sort of pent up annoyance, and frustration at the powers that be that held us back initially. And now seeing a solution to this. This was a huge spark again, to me, like personal training, massive spark, and I thought, wow, this is cool. It wasn't quite enough to grip me fully at the time because I think it was there all sort of the Tesla Roadster was very cool and ends up actually being fortunate enough to own one of these later on in life, phenomenal car for what it was at the time. But it was still very sort of startup, you know, wasn't looking for a long way to go before they had something that was gonna be accepted by the masses. So I'm still travelling, I've now realised that Tesla exists, that they solve a huge problem that I'd seen in my life that was very frustrating to sort of see. And so I'm thinking ethically, this is a good thing. And then I see a Tesla video of you know, Boston launching the superchargers in 2012. And this is the Model S is out now. So I see the Model S and a supercharger version one technology launch video in 2012. And I take one look at that. And I immediately go, that's the future. That is the future right there. That is how we're all going to be driving cars at this company is gonna be the largest automotive manufacturer by the end of this decade. And a my head, it was as certain as day is tonight. That was it. And so, I've now like super so now so overnight after seeing this video now Tesla's biggest fan. You know, I'm just so excited. You know, this is like a sci fi movie. For me. This is this is it. This is the future. And no one knows about Tesla talking to my friends who've never even heard about it sounds wild, you know, the overwhelming majority of them think this is absolutely crazy. And sort of two poignant things that happened. I was still travelling. Two things happened. I came back to England, because my visa ran out in Australia. So tail between my legs, I didn't want to leave at the time. But my visa run out, ultimately came back came back to me. And I still still wanted to travel. So I booked two trips to China, and had a I got my Chinese visa, I still want to travel, but was now super excited about Tesla. I go to a gathering of my friends. And I end up telling the entire room that this was like, almost like a small party about Tesla. And everyone was just in complete silence about what I was saying about this company, how exciting it was where it was going and you could hear a pin drop apart from me just rambling about science company was my friend who was a recruiter at the time said you need to get a job with these guys. And that's the first time I thought that's the first reason I don't know why I hadn't thought that I was like, you're probably right. I probably shouldn't you know, she's like, look what we just done to this room. Everyone's on their phones googling Tesla, like this is how he talked about it. Why have you not thought about Get a job and as you probably right but I've had this trip to China booked but uh booked via California because of my trips out there in earlier in August I mentioned that I've been going out there actually subsequently and developed friends out in California as well, I'm going to go to China via LA, I go to LA, this is 2013 Tesla Model S Adobe been out for maybe one year max. And I go to Laguna Beach where my friends are. And of course, the beauty beach and Newport Beach, were an absolute hub for Tesla borderless drivers apart from the Bay Area where Tesla was. So now I'm seeing on the road Tesla's in Newport Beach and Laguna Beach in 2013. And I'm just like, mind blown, this is it. And so I've had this experience, my recruiter friends, like you need to get a job for them with seeing them on the road. And ultimately, I was like, This is it, complete lightbulb moment, what was I thinking, not living in England again, or London, what was I thinking, being prepared not to work for big corporation ever again, I need to now go and get a job with these guys, I need to cancel this trip to China, pick up the phone and speak to recruitment. And I need to weasel my way in and get myself a job at Tesla. And this is at a time in 2013, where they hadn't launched the board lesson to the UK yet. And I picked up the phone to recruitment and basically started hassling them for an interview.

Andy: 1:01:15

This is wonderful. Ross, there's so much in this, the picture I've got of you standing in front of that room full of people at a party, on your feet, maybe a little bit of the actor and you certainly they're the person who's comfortable to talk and hold people's attention. And just sharing what you were passionate about what you cared deeply about and being able to hold the room and engage them. And yeah, the good fortune of someone pointing out to you, he should have a job with those people because you love it that you hadn't actually made the connection at that point that this is something I love, but I could actually make this part of my career. Yeah, and that you had a ticket that was via LA. And, and and and it was a supercharger. It was the suit seeing the supercharger video that convinced you that this was the horse to back if this was definitely going to happen?

Ross Forder: 1:02:10

Absolutely. So I picked up the phone to recruitment. In the opening, I still remember that I still have it somewhere, I still remember the opening lines, my cover letter, which is just this, let me get straight to the point. Tesla Motors will be the largest automotive manufacturer globally by the end of the decade. And then I go on. Of course it wasn't but it was the most valuable. It was just in my head lightbulb moment, no one can give it to me otherwise, this is it. And of course, you know, although it wasn't large, sort of a dramatic stretch by 2020 the general principles and my belief in the product was was absolutely on point. And there's just no one that was going to convince me otherwise that it wasn't. And so that was

Andy: 1:02:46

that's the most important thing was whether or not it was whether it was or wasn't, nobody was gonna convince you, it wasn't. So in terms of the paradigm that you had, and what you were carrying into or what you would carry into a roll if they gave you on was would be powerful. Regardless of whether it was true or

Ross Forder: 1:03:05

not. The level of belief I had in the business the level of passion that I had for it success on so many different levels, it was almost cringe worthy. So just take a breath calm down dude, just just company making cars come on. But you know, invaluable in for a business at that time, really to have on the team in a sense that you want people that have that passion because although I didn't have relevant experience, you know, I think I actually applied for the sales advisor role having thought I had a bit of sales experience, perhaps training, absolutely no experience whatsoever in automotive, I'd like to cars, at least have the old picture of cars walls, but I was never, you know, obsessed with cars. I never really had the car experience. I didn't know really what other cars were. So this was all kind of pretty fresh for me. But for the first time I actually I actually researched what I should be doing prior to the interview. And I researched it on steroids, you know, not literally physically I didn't never did that qualify this disclaimer. No, not even in the gym days never did but um, but you know, I was just absolutely right. I just engrossed myself in the Tesla world for four weeks before I had my actual first input as I passed a few sort of on the phone interviews, and there asked me all these questions about charging infrastructure, or the cars, the stats on the car and I was just like, bang, bang, bang, bang just I had I had because I was obsessed. And that passionate just led me to sort of research to death everything about this company about the market was in and and where it was going. And then ultimately I had an interview with the two then assistant to assistant store managers rob the store manager at Westfield. So Westfield was the only Tesco store in UK, more or less hadn't been launched yet. I then turn up and I remember one of their questions was sort of looking at my CV being and it was along the lines of an acting degree. Yeah. Do you want to tell us how that might be relevant to sales that you're going for here. And my immediate response was, can you guys tell me a better degree for sales, and they weren't able to come up with anything. That's where I think there may be there are better degrees of sales. But again, the ability to speak to people to level with them to develop rapport with them to improvise and change your approach to different character types, to having confidence to standing up and speaking to vulnerable people to presenting all of

Andy: 1:05:30

that self awareness, self awareness,

Ross Forder: 1:05:33

all of that was was packed to this degree or done, which most people would still today would see that as irrelevant. And

Andy: 1:05:41

I'm glad we're talking about this. Ross, I am a huge believer that there are so many transferable skills that come out of a drama or an acting degree that really useful real life stuff. Way more important than a lot of stuff people are picking up in, in university. So I'm absolutely with you on that. And how long did it take you to get in? To Tesla?

Ross Forder: 1:06:08

Yeah, it did take it, it took a few months. So I was hassling them for quite a while. And I think, I think honestly, at that time we would test there was it was quite fragmented, it was very much a startup business, you know, the support infrastructure wasn't in place, the processes went bad. You know, as I found out, when I eventually got accepted in this, it was the Wild West. So I think even the recruitment process then was sort of quite fragmented. For me at the time, I didn't mind, I was just just wanting the job, but it took a while. And then if they would take them quite a while to come back to me and say, so you've got the job, which I don't know grudges against, it was just incredibly early stage for them. They were just launching in Europe, very startup Wild West. So it probably took around three months. I think

Andy: 1:06:49

the reason I asked was, and I have told so many people, what I'm about to say, and you're probably one of the people that caused me to think like this. But one of my observations from being at Tesla was how many people were there who had it seemed just stopped whatever they were doing, at the time, whatever role it was, and come, they'd heard about the mission. And they wanted to be they thought I want to get on that mission with that with that company. And so they stopped what they're doing, they came and they knocked on the door. And then sometimes they knocked on the door for a year, 18 months until they got in. And that was I found very interesting. And I think that the transferrable bit for us all is the amount of thought you went, you put into the preparation for that interview, how you knew the stats inside out, you knew the business, you knew the direction, you knew why they were going to succeed, and you genuinely heart and soul you wanted to be part of, of that that must have been a very compelling presentation that you you brought, you know that the proposition of you joining, I love the mic drop moment where they asked you, you know, what's relevant about acting? And he said, Well, tell me a more relevant qualification. I think that's wonderful. So you've got in, God said, this was your dream to be on this mission? And what was the reality? Like I always ask this, it's not a trick question. I always ask people, What was the reality after there, right?

Ross Forder: 1:08:17

So I was just on cloud nine, absolutely. ON CLOUD NINE, you know, they given you the test, the jackets test, the logos all over it, I was walking around sort of outside of work with these things, thinking, you know, they actually don't know, I've made it an entry level, by the way, so I've not, you know, it was not successful as getting sales advisor role they because I didn't have relevant experience. So I ended up as a product specialist, entry level role store assistant style role at Tesco, Westfield, shepherds, Bush, which is the first store that launched about less than UK. And immediately I note that the team for the majority, I'd say the majority of the team there at that time was very much like me, we just bang hit it off straight away. Everyone's my age, everyone is just using enthusiasm for this company. We're there because it's ethical. We're all very different paths to get there. But we've all converged for similar reasons. And so you just immediately work with this company that you're you can't believe you're working for. And you're surrounded by people that are the same, you just back straightaway bonded. And I'm still really close with some of these original guys today. And so that was also so realising sort of who your peers were. But the second thing that struck me was just how, how scrappy everything was. And it really was we just didn't have the support infrastructure. We had to build this thing, even as a sales team sort of the wasn't the sort of prescribed sales meetings, there wasn't really prescribed as proposed expressionists for myself who mainly targeted on leads and test drives at the time. There weren't targets. There were no targets when I first joined there, which is just a case of to go out there and tell everyone about the car, try and get some test chosen. And I was so we know what we would have to do but there was no targets in place. We had you know, there was no reporting on set targets. So it was quite loose. And so I'm sorry, in my head, I'm back to almost being where it was as a personal trainer, which is not really not there was any fault of the managers, but the structure wasn't in place to manage me and develop me, or to hold me accountable to set targets, none of that was in place. And so back to the pastor training days are going well, I wouldn't be number one. I wouldn't be the number one lead generating product specialist in Europe. And also, I do have to say, now that I did have the platform to do so and test to Wakefield, it wasn't just all myself being able to do this, but I was in a high footfall store, there were other high footfall stores in Europe. But comparatively, if I'd been at a local store, my targets to acquire leads would have been, would have been completely different. And so a similar as the person training days, I suddenly go, Okay, I want to be in a one, I want to be the best I can be at this job. I also want to get promoted, because I wanted that sales vice position, I'm already thinking sells what's actually the other thing I'd send it said an interview. They're like, what's your aspirations here? And I said, to the managers, and I said, I want to be the manager of the store, in the interview, and I remember they sort of had a slight smirk on their face, because that means that's their job, right? But I was like, that's what I want to be, I want to be the manager of the store. And I said that in the interview as well. And so that's my mission, oh, I want to be the ultimate, I want to be the manager of store, I want to progress. I want to be number one, I want to have the most impact I possibly can for this company, they absolutely at its core, but even and so I was going to the managers and saying, Hey, I need to see, like I need the urgently what are the product specialists in the region are doing lead wise, I need to see what my peers are doing. And I need set daily, because I want to be number one, like, you know, friendly banter with the guys I'm in I want to beat these guys. We're friends, you know, we're still friends today. But it's still want to want to be number one. So as I was, even though the reports might come in, so as I was proactively going up the chain, chasing my bosses, to a lot to give me the information, I needed to be better. And I was just doing it myself, right, totally self starter stuff. And so they eventually gave me the reports, I needed to see where it was in Europe for lead lead gen. And I was just I was you know, without them having to manage me or performance managed me or set targets or maybe they weren't having to do anything, or just do it all myself, give me the reports, I'm going to go out there as match this. And I'd get the information. And that was it. I was just on an absolute mission to be number one in Europe. And thankfully, for several of these months, at least, struggling remember now but for sure some of these months when I was Product Specialist was I was the number one lead capture in Europe just because I was get hell bent on the mission to do so going up the chain to get the information required to do so. And I didn't need any way that motivation or management in that sense. I was just I'm going to do this myself.

Andy: 1:12:38

You mentioned Ross, it was because you want to do it for the company, this company that you're working for as well. So there's that individual competitiveness, and wanting to be number one, you mentioned, you wanted to do that for this company, that you're that you believed in what they were doing. And that I think is I would say you are not alone. Would you agree you are not the only person who have that appetite. And that desire,

Ross Forder: 1:13:02

there was a competitive landscape. And I'm sure it still is today, right? It's the majority of people were there, because they are passionate about the company. Because they want it they want companies and seeds. They also you know, in sales, everyone's everyone's competitive. And everyone else particularly my position is product specialist, they also wanted the next role they wanted to sell as advisor role you want to be you want to get to that role as quickly as possible. So

Andy: 1:13:24

you could argue in a, in an in an environment like that in a fast growing hyper scaling environment. That's okay, because there are going to be enough roles. Yes. And I'm sure we'll talk about your progression, your rapid progression. The point I want to underline if you like in this bit of the conversation is what it's like to work in an organisation which is truly mission driven. And where people have put down their tools wherever they were doing. And they have come because they want to get on the mission, the level of discretionary effort that you get, and it wasn't just you doing that it was across the board, a lot of people similar age to you, as you said similar beliefs. Absolutely giving it all so that that company would succeed on its mission. And I have not experienced anything like it I had not until I joined Tesla. And I think it once you've seen it and you've experienced how much people give when they believe you realise what an advantage, obviously was one of the strong advantages Tesla.

Ross Forder: 1:14:29

Yeah, yeah. Any company that the motivation of the workforce for the employees is one of the biggest determining factors of the company's success rate. We will say the company is about the people what about the performance of the people? What brings performance but the motivation and the desire to perform is the precursor to performance. So then you look at okay, what what makes up the motivation? And the more components that you have that increase the motivation, the better so exactly what you said you've got it's an ethical business. People will on a mission to make sure that this technology, unlike, in my case, unlike the AV one, a previously, this one is going to succeed. And it has to succeed to protect the atmosphere, the environment, and all these other reasons, certainly the business and the mission itself was a huge motivating factor for the level of work we did, we did, we're putting wild hours in that first summer, which I'm sure will come and see. But the motivation and the end and the mission of the company key, the other carrot on the end of the stick, for me, started financial level of wanting to work my way up the ladder. So seeing the potential for growth, and the desire to sort of work my way up the ladder was a second one huge third one was just generally speaking, wanting to be number one, and seeing what my peers were doing in terms of leads, just show me the data and seeing what other people are doing is my peers, I just generally wanting to be number one there, certainly three huge components of motivation, which just leads you to do crazy things, I mean, you will quickly do things that, you know, other people would say impossible or unsustainable. And that, you know, that may just be the number of hours you're working, and maybe the work rate that you're working at, etc, etc.

Andy: 1:16:10

Thank you, Ross, we have a model that we use with clients about performance and about what the fundamental contributing factors are that drive performance. And I just want to test that with you, because I think you're about to absolutely demonstrate, you're going to prove our hypothesis if you like so, or prove our model. The first is, at that time, how well equipped were you in terms of knowledge, skills, experience, mindset and resources to do what you were doing? And we've talked about your acting skills. We've talked about your personality, your sales experience as a personal trainer. So how would you say how well equipped were you in terms of knowledge skills? extremes, do you think to do what you were doing at that point?

Ross Forder: 1:16:56

Thankfully, I think I was well equipped. Yeah, but just just just coincidentally, I had this experience that was that was relevant to what I needed to do.

Andy: 1:17:04

So I think that's one fundamental factor. The second is how clear was it to you what you were supposed to be doing? And how you were doing against expectations?

Ross Forder: 1:17:15

Yeah. Yeah, it was very clear, it was simple. Yeah. Leads, number of test drives, how many of those great sales, especially the product specialist level, it was, it was very, it was very narrow, very obvious, and very easy to get the information on, on on how you're performing with these metrics.

Andy: 1:17:32

The third is to what extent was the behaviour of the people around you supporting you to perform at a high level?

Ross Forder: 1:17:40

In the sense that they provided competition to me for that number one sports? Yes, a great deal.

Andy: 1:17:50

Yeah, I'm sure there were some improvements potentially, in the structures, the the management, etc, that were because it was a startup and it was a bit scrappy, as you say, but the PP individuals were like minded, they weren't stabbing you in the back? No, I imagine they were. It was a more wholesome. There was competition than that. And finally, how much did it mean to you what you were doing?

Ross Forder: 1:18:16

More than anything more than anything, was just at the time, this was absolutely my life purpose. This is on you know, when we first launched, we barely had enough people to keep the doors of Westfield open. So So we're already incredibly lean team, and it's really busy, high footfall location in Westfield. So it's a slog, just keeping the doors of that site open at this point. We're also gearing up for the Model S launch at this point, we have left hand drive cars that's coming in from Netherlands we don't have right Android cars yet not in the market. We're gearing up to this. And then suddenly, we gear up to it. The launch happens. You know, we meet Elon Musk, he comes over for the right hand drive launch event. It's all on right hand drive cars are here. And that we have this nationwide events programme. You know, we're taking cars up to cities around the UK in hotels, taking it to markets and trying to sell cars in these markets. The only people that are able to do that nationwide events programme was the team at Westfield, and we barely had enough people to keep the doors open at Westfield. And when we launched I remember, I think I did something like 36 days straight, you know, minimum 12 to sort of 15 hour days, because we had to we all all did it. We all did it when I forgot to do it again.

Andy: 1:19:33

Did you begrudge it?

Ross Forder: 1:19:34

No, not at all. Not at all. I mean, I've towards the end of that. I do remember thinking I need the day off, I can't perform. And there was you know, you need the time off. But it was just so so exciting. And actually, you know in some of our actually remember that. So we did motor Expo in Canary Wharf, and I won't drop anyone in it. But there was a couple of folks at the time that team members that didn't pull their weight and ends up sort of departing shortly after Watching, they would depart that day. And we would basically date taken down to three team members at this huge motor Expo Canary Wharf launch event with Tesla, but less. Also, I think we had four people. And we had back to back triple test drives all day, which basically meant that we had one person to manage the entire actual site event piece, and people back to back test drives for the entire day. While signing in people, you can imagine how busy it is at stand one person, while the other three are just constantly without stop signing in and doing test drives. And that was during that 36 Day straight period. And I just remember that that was the pinnacle how hard we worked in the day, I don't know how we did it still, to this day, our forebears managed to triple test shows back to back all day and maintain the standard. But that is what happened. And again, without that passion, the motivation, the team would just collapse that you'd get to the end of that. And so I'm not doing that again, although it was fueling you with the talent today. So I'm not doing this. Yeah. But yeah, it was really nice.

Andy: 1:21:05

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Ross. I think if you haven't lived it and seen the level of commitment that people would give you people need to see it. So they know, what's the point? And why should I? Why should I try and create an organisation where people really care about what we do? Why should I? Why should we really have an ethical focus? My perception of it, Ross is that people, they weren't working for a car company, they believe they were saving the planet? Yeah, absolutely. And whether they were or not, it doesn't matter. That is the belief. And that's what was fueling this ability to, to work that hard and give everything that everybody gave. Absolutely. So talk little bit about your progression, then through the through the business.

Ross Forder: 1:21:51

So after sort of seven, eight months in product specialist role, myself and my colleague Alex, we're both simultaneously get promoted to sales advisors. So finally, I've been going to events and actually selling cars, it's kind of just bought naturally walked into the world was sort of already closing deals and selling cars, just in the nature of being a lean team. And one month, as I've just been promoted sales wiser, now selling cars. One month after that promotion, my manager speaks to me and say, Hey, we're launching a new store in Bristol, which is now the Bristol Cribbs causeway mall store. And they said, Would you like to go and lead? Effectively management, you know, not titles, would you like to lead that store opening, I've been a sales advisor for one month, I've just been promoted into a sales advisor. And they're basically then the Ask effectively, is, we need you to now go to the site, we need you to be a sales advisor, with no management or next to no support whatsoever. So you now need to leave your nest, again, be a sales advisor in another location. While I've been a sales advisor for a month, while you're doing that, we need you to hire, train, and implement a team set up the store and manage a brand new tester store. So I was like, What, again, blinded by the passion? Yes, no problem. Sure. Oh, yeah, find a way and so ultimate. So after one month of set up to Britt to launch the crystal critical to a bookstore, action, there's objectives, that was one of the most stressful times my entire life. But you take a risk, you take a risk, you know, what, what is on the other side of that, what if I can prove myself and what is, you know, that is a huge challenge. And I'm sure there's a lot of people, significant family, or whatever else that would say, you can't, you can't commit to that. So thankfully, I was, you know, late 20s. single at the time, you're in a position where I can say yes to that. But the sacrifice required to be successful in that was incredibly large. And I think beyond what a lot of people are even in a position to be able to undertake. Thankfully, I was, and I went out and did did a reasonable job of, of that launch. I mean, my goodness, it was stressful. But I got through it, learn quickly. And even then, already had the focus on the team. You know, how do I how do we get a team of people that have a similar mindset to myself, where they where they don't need continuous supervision, they don't need continuous management, we don't have enough people doing sales of either job and a manager job. So we need a team of people that don't require continuous micromanagement for myself. And that's, you know, very quickly, I'm learning to sort of find people that have the passion, you know, set goals, and just basically allow them, you know, set goals, set rewards, very clearly set expectations and be transparent about the situation, guys, I'm not going to be here for you, every minute of the day, I can. I can barely do the job of just being a sales advisor, with everything else going on. So this is what to expect and you need to try it you got to find these people and to get that to them. See, they're very passionate, again, very, very passionate. And were able to sort of just just crack on with the product specialist role, which allowed me to get over selling cars. And figuring out how on earth I'm supposed to be a manager of a store with zero experience.

Andy: 1:25:15

But you did it. We did it. So how long were you in that role?

Ross Forder: 1:25:22

was either about three months around, I'd say. So it basically got it up and running, at which point there was sort of a tag team where another one of my good friends who were still friends to this day he was then put it put in the position to sort of, so it's kind of set it up, there's still work to do for sure, we won't finish in three months, but had some the initial sort of like work to get to get some momentum there and to get it moving. And then I was basically came back to London, at which point I was given my first store manager role. So that would have been, I guess, after less than a year, at that point, I've gone from product specialists entry level to now I got my own store officially. And that was the bread cross location. The original brand cross location at the shopping mall there, which isn't what it is today, it was in a much smaller site sort of nearby.

Andy: 1:26:08

That's where I remember coming to see. Yes,

Ross Forder: 1:26:11

yeah. Good times. And so and that was really excited because that store was already set up. But it wasn't doing much there was no management there. There's no one driving it, they had some product specialists and sales advisors. But there was it was basically just right for the taking there was just just needed to be pushed forward. And I still carry that through today in my business. Now the fact that I was given the opportunity to prove myself in these roles probably a bit earlier than I should want, without a doubt Bristol's case earlier than I would have been in any typical company and really should have been, it just didn't have anyone else to do it, you know. But if you've got someone who's passionate wants to succeed, they will do anything they possibly can succeed in that roles when I was given the store manager role in brain cross. You know, again, I'm just so grateful to have this opportunity to prove myself that Am I perfect, far from it far from perfect, but my goodness, I'm going to do everything I can to continue to improve myself, to put myself in a position where I've earned the role that they've given me and I still do that today, my current business where we will, you know, where we think it's a good idea to put people into positions that they may be a bit too early for. But if they're passionate enough, they've proven that they will do anything they can to improve, then we'll give it to them.

Andy: 1:27:23

So that's if they want to, if you if they're hungry for it, and you think well, we're not sure if you're ready. But if you think you are, we'll we'll keep an eye on you and give you the option to give you the opportunity. Was it you know, we talked about the positives of this being on a mission? And how absolutely passionate and hard working people were? Was it all good? Ross?

Ross Forder: 1:27:47

Generally speaking, yes. I mean, I think, look, the the work right, without a shadow of a doubt was unsustainable. So even with the passion, yeah, over my career, now we're talking about a testable just spent four and a half years, there were two moments that I experienced burnout, I had experienced that when I before experienced it twice to test that because you just when you have that much passion, you don't see the limit, and also didn't have experienced the limits that never crossed that threshold. So the biggest challenge was expectation, expectation and and sort of the targets, intermixed with the work required to achieve those. Also my worst enemy, because again, I want to be number one, I don't just want to be a manager of a small store, I eventually want Westfield I eventually want the, you know, the high profile sites. And so if you want to be if you want to, if you want to stand out from the crowd, if you want to, if you would have been, you know, hopefully the first person they're going to pick for the next row. That's another that's just another level of work, right? Again, in a company like Tesla, you can't just coast again, there's positions you have to be doing better than anyone else. And that requires hard work, and other barriers as well. But that was one of the elements of that there was two times that that was too much for me, and I experienced burnout. And I think other people have did as well for the series, be blinded by the passion. Don't see the limit.

Andy: 1:29:07

I thoroughly enjoyed watching you in action as a leader at Goodwood Festival of Speed in I think 2016. Yes, it was that was when Model X was. So you're available. And you were leading one of the two teams, they just say a little bit about how that was set up. And what you recall from that.

Ross Forder: 1:29:30

Yeah, so again, having not having had any, we hadn't had event experience sort of, you know, being product specialists being so as far as price to Gibberd. But I didn't have any experience as a leader and event. So sort of was called in a couple of us were called in to sort of as managers to sort of manage the sales side of Goodwood. And so we were just thinking, Okay, what was it that motivated us, you know, and how can we extrapolate that to this event to make it as successful as possible? So one of the elements obviously is competition. Okay, how do you have competition? We need to we need teams then. So we have divided into two teams had, you know, a comment was good tigers, the sharks or you know, something classic like that to two teams give them a name divided ahead of the game into those two teams set up separate WhatsApp groups start the band's early start the friendly competition. Me in the opposing manager, still, my good friend Alex will start the fight, we were so competitive against each other, we'll start the competition between us set targets of what we're looking to achieve there. And then went on site relentlessly focus on in a friendly manner but relentlessly focus on outperforming the competition. And I think that was a key thing that sort of drove the success of the event and I think would work better in friendly competition of each other's two teams that we would have just as one team working for one goal, because their level of motivation is, is orders of magnitude greater when you're trying to beat up and there were prizes for the winning team and a part of the role of us as managers, we would go round to the opposing team and be like, Hey, we're being a bully. We're just saying is that Tom over there? See Tom Yeah, there's got to be more leads. And it's just booked. So if you want to win that champagne, again, just friendly, but sort of just friendly poking. And it was just so fun. You know, it was all in good jest friendly competition. We're all friends, really. And also led by me, the manager were clearly good friends, but but super competitive each other at the same time.

Andy: 1:31:29

Yeah, it was was really good to witness. And I'm only thinking about it now that the thought I've had is that rather than just have a competition where we're going to have individual winners, you know, we're going to pit you all against each other. You create a team dynamic to team. So the still the you're working together, you're supporting each other, it's healthy, it's wholesome in that regard. And you're you're competing to beat the other team, you're not competing to be the top dog yourself. There have been people might have been during those, you know, they wanted to be the best in the team. Sure that's going to happen. But there was also this focus on on the other team. And I found that out, I just thought the vibrancy, the energy. The people were putting in long days, there was a Heather was the marketing manager responsible for that. And there were teams that would arrive before you know, Heather would be that five o'clock in the morning, I think with the team that were doing the setup each day. And then the sales folk would arrive about 730, I think and then it was on until the finish clearing up eight o'clock at night sort of thing. But incredible spirit at that, at that event, which was a microcosm, if you like, of what was going on throughout the business

Ross Forder: 1:32:44

throughout well, just the camaraderie was awesome. I just have such fond memories, because I remember just you know, having a teammate at Star and your teams would all hold it round, like a sports team. You know, it's almost like we were sort of leaning into some of that sports, competitive nature really, we all had around the circle, you know, pre COVID our arms around each other super tight in Riley shows up like you see a sports manager running a sports team, it was no different. It was

Andy: 1:33:07

photographs of you doing that. So that's just you said you weren't you have a leadership position. Before then you came in, you set some clear parameters, you thought what works for me, what gets me motivated, and you created this environment, which is leadership is all about creating environments where people can thrive and succeed. And you did that in that in the event that I witnessed? How did your thoughts about leadership evolve during your time? At Tesla,

Ross Forder: 1:33:36

I think there's a few few things that really sort of hit home for me, I think the next one, just still quite a basic one. But just as so, so powerful, is it's just rewarding good behaviour. And that is it doesn't matter how small it is, it could be the smallest thing possible. If you wrap that up in a blanket of positivity and make that individual feel amazing. They are more likely to repeat their behaviour and succeed. And so I would always be whether it's a bad event or otherwise, you'd always be trying to look for something positive doesn't matter how sport as long as it's so catch people

Andy: 1:34:08

catch people doing the right thing, or exactly people doing things, right. It's the same with kids. If you're a parent, catch them doing something right. And then then they'll repeat it. So just

Ross Forder: 1:34:18

more things, again, free COVID. So I'd give like, huge high fives, like figure as high fives to people be like, yeah, that was phenomenal. It might even not be that massive, but I'd be genuine, it would be genuine but it is because I will be coming from a genuine space. So big high five, well done, Hey, I saw that. Keep doing that. That is awesome. And you know, you just say it with app. So again, you're you're praising them in a completely genuine and passionate way.

Andy: 1:34:44

And with a specific, yes. You're not just saying Oh, you're awesome. You're saying that particular act you've just done that we've witnessed it so they know exactly what it is you want them to do again,

Ross Forder: 1:34:54

exactly exactly what you're specific about it. In your tone, it is clear that you passionately believe in the praise that you're giving, you're not just sort of, you know, or done a good job, keep doing that. That's nowhere near as powerful as, Hey, I just saw that X, Y and Zed that you just said to that customer, which result in that lead. That was phenomenal. Keep doing that. I'm gonna get to just going to mention this here, the other guys watching now, that's a great technique, Jack, do your job. Well done, you know, passionately believe in your tone has so much power, more power than a fairly neutral tone as well. I know that's getting into the detail, but it really does make a big difference.

Andy: 1:35:31

So you've got to be Westfield, Westfield, just we've mentioned Westfield a lot for our listeners overseas. It's the I believe it's the largest shopping mall in Europe. Yes. And it's, it's based in West London, Ubik, you want it to be the store manager. That was one of your ambitions was to be store manager of Westfield.

Ross Forder: 1:35:48

Yes. So So Frank Ross went well, we've managed to sort of dramatically increased performance of that site. And so it was there, which was great, wasn't overly challenging, I guess, in a way they had no manager. But at the same time, we were actually competing with some of the biggest, or the biggest sort of selling stalls at the time there, which for our size was a guest was surprising, but they didn't ever manage that in the first place. And that was sort of entry level managerial role for me, sort of still prove myself, at this time, sort of Westfield was, was struggling. And the previous manager departed. And I was basically sent into a struggling store that wasn't doing what it should have been doing to turn it around effectively. So that was quite a big job. Because that was the highest profile store in the UK, one of the high profile ones in Europe. And it wasn't just a normal management assignment, it was, this store is underperforming, you need to get this turned around. And so I'd gotten from sort of small store, initial sort of store manager position to quite a challenging high profile store.

Andy: 1:36:48

What that makes me think Ross is how important the role of the individual is. So much does depend on the individual leader who's running the store, as to what the overall performance of that store is, even with all the other factors being equal. Or even in your favour. You say Westfield had a lot of things in its favour. But you inherited it as something that needed to be turned around. How did you do that?

Ross Forder: 1:37:13

Good question. Because I think, you know, at this stage, I'm not a cheerleader. At this point, you know, haven't had a lot of experience I have, there's no training programmes at Tesla. At this point. It's just all figuring out by yourself. And again, just coming down what's worked for me previously, is this really unique to myself was this actually applicable just to the majority of human beings, because it's, it's relevant to human psychology. So the stuff that which we might, you know, positive reinforcement, or all these kind of basics, which is what I'm discovering as I go, is not unique to myself, quite obviously, as applicable, folks. So the first thing I did when I went in there, you know, bilbrough was in the toilet, they were underperforming the previous management past it, it was fractured. And sort of the first thing I did just came in and just similar skill just brought everyone together, grabbed what made them feel like they were part of a team again, and just said, Hey, we're going to do this, this, we are going to take the store from where it is, again, to just setting expectations and doing in a passionate manner, with full belief and commitment to what I'm saying. This is where we're going we as a team are going to take the store where it is today. And we're going to take it to place x which is whatever it would have been in sales or just performance. And you know, these other stores are being as now where we are going to take this place to where we are number one in the UK. And you guys as a team are the ones that are going to help get it there. Because you're you all have the capability to do this. You all do. And so just instilling belief, setting a clear objective, improving the morale, improving the glue as a team and making them feel like a team again,

Andy: 1:38:49

we mentioned that you mentioned a couple of times making them feel like a team. Is there something specific or some specifics you were doing to somebody I understand what you're saying about giving them it's all great, giving them clarity, really a stretch target that we're aiming for the belief that they can do it, we're all doing this together? Was it was there anything in terms of the glue and making them feel more like a team that you think worked?

Ross Forder: 1:39:11

Yeah, it was just developing the connection. So So either you can't do it anymore, but just are you were you used to sort of just gather around in a circle and often have arms around each other. Like a sports team does. So so actually physically can't do it. Now, of course, but physical touch creates oxytocin, which is a bonding for me. So we would do that. I would give frequent high fives and strong handshakes and just sort of act in a fun way to the team. Again, oxytocin transfer, good, good for developing connections report. We'd go out as a team, you know, basically, just taking them out regular team meetings, which has been happening, celebrating individuals within the team, and then we're on the wider team calls. So we're being presented as a team to the other stores and sort of the weekly sales call, you know, calling out the team and individual team members I get praising them in front of everyone else, that little things that they had done well, and just reinforcing those behaviours that you're looking to with positive reinforcement. And honestly, that just made, it just made such a difference. It just it creates an atmosphere, it's what is that intangible thing that you always can't really sort of put your finger on, but it creates an atmosphere, or a vibe or an energy about the team, which just changes, the mentality changes the desire. And then you can all move forward as, as, as one unit.

Andy: 1:40:28

My understanding is that when you study drama, when you study acting, there's a lot of emphasis on building connection and on trust and exercises that build trust is that did any of that come through? I think,

Ross Forder: 1:40:41

again, by Well, this one would have been very accident. So I've gone through this transformation a few years before, of going from sort of stubborn, ego centric guy to super liberal and open book and actually showing my fungibility, which I wasn't able to do before to the ego would get in the way. So I would buy my own sort of accidental nature come across as vulnerable, I'd be happy to talk about my downfalls and my own imperfections, and just come across as real and shut up. Because if you can show vulnerability to your team, then that also can help develop the trust for you. Because I'm basically allowing myself to be vulnerable in front of them. I'm basically saying I trust you. So first, before you trust me, I trust you. And to prove that I trust you, here's me being vulnerable. Here's me baby, being a bit scared, hears me baby, being totally you something that's still professional can tell you the work environment. But that will just give you something like a deeper and deeper understanding of myself that you may have had otherwise, and people will latch on to that. And that can help develop trust within within the team for you.

Andy: 1:41:46

I also think that's a really good reason to come on this podcast if you're invited. So for listeners, if you get invited, what happens is, you get an opportunity to tell your story and to allow people who work with you to get to know you better, and feel more connected to you. So I would urge leaders, if they get invited to recognise what a great opportunity this is to, to present a full, full impression of themselves that their people in their organisations can understand how real and approachable they are, it will pay dividends anyway ended that commercial break for being on that podcast

Ross Forder: 1:42:26

that's well plays in good spirits, what you just mentioned that I should mention that, you know, it's not it isn't all positive, you know, you do everything, everything in terms of sort of the Korean positive atmosphere. But there are, you know, there are folks that that necessarily don't make it on the on the ride with you. So there's lots of fortunately that wrapped up was hard decisions, decisions that you don't want to make, you know, letting people go, putting people on performance improvement programmes, but in terms of, you know, wrapped up in that sort of exacerbated positivity and praise for folks that are doing well and get the team together is is a relentless focus on on areas of the business that aren't performing, and just not accepting them. Because if you in any way, shape or form except those, it's going to drag you down. So again, with maybe with individuals that aren't doing aren't performing as well as they have the capability to do so picking on those little things that they aren't doing super well telling that you they're free and supporting them. However, you have to sort of move quickly and act fast if they're under if they are underperforming. And that was the heart one of the harder parts of that period, particularly Westworld turning around the store is you know, we did lose a few people. But by the end of it, you have to be rehire retrained. And you're by the end of it, you have a team that's just super awesome and solid. But it's not all unicorns and rainbows.

Andy: 1:43:44

I'm glad you mentioned that Ross and I was going to ask you whether it was indeed that team because you said you got the team to get into them, we're going to be number one. And this is the team to do it. And I was going to ask you whether in the end, it was ultimately every single member of that team or whether you found that you had to reshape the team. And it's interesting that you found at a pretty young age and an early stage in your leadership journey, that you would have to make those difficult decisions fairly prompt me and I'm wondering whether that was helped, if you like, by the sheer pressure that you're under that there just was not room for hangers on. And you'd have been under immense pressure in your position. So I wonder if that helped accelerate, you're arriving at the point where people don't fit, they've got a they've got to be moved out and a new person's got to come in?

Ross Forder: 1:44:37

Yeah, absolutely. And both external pressure from you know, targets for the company and internal pressure that I'm still at this mission to, you know, can I succeed here eventually become an area manager, you know, how far can I take this myself? Also, the better we're performing, the more than the board the needle that we're pushing forward on their education or transport. You know, this is this is an ethical issue as well. So one of those motivations Come in. But it was challenging. But I think you don't set himself actually that, you know. So people have asked me, How do you guys innovate so quickly? Whether it's a Tesla or SpaceX, he's like, it's really simple. People that are performing well give them information. So I think reading between the lines because he said it quite simply, it's, it's similar. It's just like, give people the opportunity really ahead of time, maybe early they would have They proved themselves and get them into that role, like I was given. As an example, I was able to sort of prove myself in, set the same, give given information, and underperformers, maybe give them a chance. And then you know, his basis, exit them quite quickly, if they're not on the same journey. And that's really what we want. Yeah, how I've worked since then, it's not easy, but it's, yeah, huge kudos and praise and sort of positivity towards that those that are doing well, those that are trying to help them. But very quickly make decisions to understand, you know, if this person really is right, then you've got to have a tough decision, you've got to have it quite quickly. You can't be doing it for months and months and months. You know, you can't if it's not working, so

Andy: 1:46:04

it's so simple, isn't it that you hate people who are doing well, and you give them more responsibility, you make sure they've got more scope to do good in the business and people who aren't doing well, you have to take out having obviously check, you know, is it our fault? They're not doing well? Or is it because they're not in the right place? For them? Would it be the fair thing to do for all of us, if they were somewhere else doing something they were absolutely forming better at?

Ross Forder: 1:46:33

I think it's not probably an accident that during that period, at Westfield, we had sort of more departures than other stores. We also have more promotions than any other stores. And we did get Westville to a point where is you know exactly where it should have been and the UK top performer and, and all the rest of it. But the journey was up and down. But it was it was exactly that there was rewarding top performers, making sure the team is built out of top performers. And unfortunately, you know, making quick and hard decisions on those that weren't going to sort of be able to sort of jump on the journey with us even after a bit of support and a bit of help. And that's sort of what got us there in the end.

Andy: 1:47:08

Very good. Well done. And what did that lead to for you?

Ross Forder: 1:47:12

So that led to the store launch assignment of Chiswick. So it was sent over to the manager to the Chiswick store chose loving because there's a huge cinema upstairs loads of space. Westfield was that was a tiny box. Even the office was tight. It was a pressure cooker there with absolutely wild footfall, we sort of moved into this beautiful new store, huge sort of signage very attention grabbing, massive space offices left right centre, underground carpark cinema upstairs. So I was given the store launch assignment of chyzyk, which was, which was pretty happy with and that was sort of a high profile store. And

Andy: 1:47:46

that was going to be the new flagship store for the UK was effectively. Yes. Just Just before we we've mentioned the footfall at Westfield a number of times what we talking about, just for people listening who might work in regular car,

Ross Forder: 1:48:01

show the question, I can't remember the numbers we're dealing with, but just imagine, you know, when you go into a shopping centre, or Boxing Day, or the run up to Christmas, and it's just an absolute free for all of people. It is like that frequently, at weekends, at Westfield in your store. And you're it's just an ocean of people. And actually, particularly Boxing Day at Westfield. Is is unlike anything I've ever seen. I mean, it must is is no different to Oxford Street on Christmas Eve, I'm sure and

Andy: 1:48:34

certainly 1000 in a day, or can you remember?

Ross Forder: 1:48:38

Yeah, yeah, yes. I definitely have seen numbers like that.

Andy: 1:48:42

Yeah. All right. So I just thought put it into context. Anyway, back to chyzyk. With its swimming pools of movie stars, and yes,

Ross Forder: 1:48:50

going from 1000 people to 1015 maybe, or whatever it was, you know, just plucking numbers out, but it was it, that's what it felt like. And it was very different. You know, instead of having, you know, hundreds and sometimes 1000s of people that are just stumbling in accidentally to your store where they've gone out to buy some new underpants. You've got people coming in specifically because they've seen tests online that I actually want to you could pretty qualified or want to test drive. So it's completely change in customer type.

Andy: 1:49:18

Yeah. And conversion rates

Ross Forder: 1:49:21

and conversion rates. Yeah, exactly. But again, sort of follow the similar principles there. Remember, I wasn't allowed to do this because the one thing it says is you've got to watch absolutely every single penny you spend but we've got to send them upstairs. Surely we can. If we sort of hit some targets early on, we can you know go out and buy a PlayStation which is a secondhand you know be be frugal buy secondhand Playstation and turn that entire room into into like a next level games facility. Which one will reward the sales guys and girls for for the for their achievements, but also as an incentive like Google has to for people to stay on later and went against GRANT on that one. So wasn't allowed to do it. But I did that one did that one anyway. And, and sure enough, we had the sales team staying later than it ever stayed just play a few games on there, it's all sitting up there, do a few emails, a bit of work, now the game or two bit will work. And then people are actually going home later. So some of those niceties that you can do for the team that they make them stick around, but not one that actually improves the vibe and atmosphere, everyone's happy for this. And then to actually increase the productivity. And that's obviously what the tech companies are in Silicon Valley do with their foosball tables, and ping pong and catering in the evenings, all that kind of stuff. It's the same mentality, it was just a small thing that we did there that did make a difference. And I wasn't allowed to do it. But as students, I'm sorry, sorry.

Andy: 1:50:42

Good, good lessons. There are sometimes seek forgiveness rather than permission to do that, yes. What happened after chyzyk. So

Ross Forder: 1:50:52

sort of at the same time, I guess, the thing I missed out previously was I had put a focus on the training site at Westfield as well. So we were doing aspects such as roleplay, in the mornings, so we're sort of doing roleplay of taking leads with the product specialist during roleplay of test rides from sales advisors, I was taking the team out once a quarter for full training day, which was to sell started by myself, I would bring in other department heads of relevant departments to talk about charging, talk about marketing, talking about other aspects. And then also, I would then facilitate a few sessions of upskilling, product specialists and sales advisors as well as well. And no one was really doing that at the time. But I just saw the absolute need for hours, because we barely had enough time to train people. So I just have to carve out a day, bring everyone to the west racing site, put in these department heads, do a bit of training myself on sales, etc, with the team plus doing some of these roleplay activities on the floor. And that made a difference as well. So I missed that where we talked about Western performance, that that that made a difference as well. And I think at that time, we just heard about the initial beginnings of a training team, Tim, Brian has come on board, and I did some work with him, while it chyzyk on some training programmes that sort of ended up getting rolled out globally, which was, I was absolutely stoked with because it was Tim's sort of absolute idea. And he drove forward. But I was able to be a part of that. And so actually, ultimately made a segue into the training team, Not long afterward launched chyzyk. And it became a regional sales and delivery coach.

Andy: 1:52:22

Right. I love this the fact that you're bringing into this the role of a leader as coach trainer to a degree facilitator. And I'm wondering, I hope you were the best actor in the role plays that they

Ross Forder: 1:52:37

Yes, was certainly the first one to do it. No, it was always, you know, especially restaurant time, not everyone loves doing the old place, but they are affecting you, we'd literally because it's so busy, we would have we'd get the whole sales team out of the sales floor. And we'd have one person who was the product specialist, it was literally it was literally a mini performance. It was one person playing the product specialist. And everyone else would have to play people just walking in. And actually I'd get them to exacerbate the annoyingness that sometimes we'd have customers. So the ones that are just breaking things or just like you're having a conversation with someone else, and they'd be bossing in asking you questions, it would happen all the time. So I'd actually exacerbate the worst aspects were the hardest aspects of the job in the roleplay is making it as difficult as possible most but realistic, because these situations were happening frequently. And I just yeah, we'd have sort of, you know, the whole whole sales team in which everyone else would just play customers and we just be around being really

Andy: 1:53:33

play the worst customers

Ross Forder: 1:53:35

as well as much as possible. Because you know, that's that's what we have to do. Then when you when it happens in real life, you're more than equipped for it. You're like wow, it wasn't as bad as roleplay this morning.

Andy: 1:53:45

Yeah, no, it makes it makes a lot of sense and that great to hear that you doing that and fulfilling that role of leader facilitator coach trainer. And then he went in that direction officially

Ross Forder: 1:53:58

that yeah, went in that direction. So initially was a covering a carpet was I was covering the UK. I think I was covering UK initially and the sales and delivery mate meaning set a sales coach as growth for the UK initially, again, sort of haven't actually got any training experience apart from what I'd sort of just been doing as a self starter myself as the manager positions. Yeah, initially, I've been working on this on this piece, which was designed at sort of cultivating the mindset of the sales team we wanted before we have all this amazing sort of sales processes and techniques and targets and everything else, you have to have a fertile mind within your team to to sow the seeds on so to speak. And so, actually the initial training sort of forgot we worked on was based on on the effectively based on the methods of continuous improvement. So so obviously sir Dave Brailsford, who British Cycling Team coach who won several Olympics were then we had amazing sort of success in the cycling team with was was one of the sort of folk cited in it what we were doing and they'd had amazing success and he was just looking for every single possible improvement no matter if is 1% point 100% 10% improvement everything, and you compound, the marginal gains even larger gains. Yeah, marginal gains, if you compound those, and over six months, 12 months, you have a huge gain, if you compound all the marginal gains, and so we set out to create a marginal gains mindset within within the sales team of the UK, and it went well, executives over in California got hold of that. And that was ultimately rolled out globally, which is really awesome to have been a part of that. And again, thankfully, because of the success success of the initial programme that I only helped with, I should say, I didn't sort of create that, but I facilitated the trainings. And I certainly sort of helped push it forward, ended up sort of my role was expanded to cover Western Europe in the Middle East. And then yeah, the mindset piece was something we're working on for most of the time has been by training. Well, that was a key piece apart from working sort of with sales managers, at the regional level, sometimes at the director level, on engineering, specifically sales processes to improve performance, and so on and so forth. But the entire time I was in that role, that mindset piece was it was also always prevalent.

Andy: 1:56:11

So that mindset piece was that about this idea of marginal gains, or was there more to the mindset.

Ross Forder: 1:56:18

So in terms of the piece itself, it was mostly the marginal gains piece, which segwayed into having stores come out with every improvement they possibly could. And in creating all these suggested improvements, some of which, you know, don't make the cut, obviously, and some of which are phenomenal improvements that not only make the carpet get rolled out across the entire market. But a lot of a lot of that was within inherent within the marginal gains mindset is putting your ego aside and being able to identify your own personal weaknesses, being okay with that, and looking to improve them. You know, within sales teams, obviously, there's there is the Academy, a lot of ego, I had one of those for sure I still do. And being able to sort of push that aside, which is a continuous battle in itself. Be realistic, be humble, understanding weaknesses, and look at those weaknesses and celebrate them as something that you can identify and progress from is such an important mindset for the performance of any team that yeah, that was a core focus for us. And also just the shift in focus of understanding that failure is not only okay, but on some level should also be celebrated. There is really good SpaceX, the only reason that they have absolutely delete from NASA and launch capabilities and re re landing reused orbital class boosters for the 10th or 11th time, whatever it is now, is because the folks at SpaceX and Tesla fail frequently at an incredibly fast rate. And they learn and they use those failures as learnings. And they adapt as quickly as possible to these failures and move forward. And if you can do that, the faster you can do that. The faster you innovate, the more successful you can be. So So SpaceX as an example, they fail very frequently, very fast, but to that failure, right? How do we, what do we learn from this? We're gonna redo this test next week, how do we improve it. And that relentless pursuit of understanding of how to improve upon the failures is core to the success of the technology, the innovative technology as SpaceX and Tesla,

Andy: 1:58:16

brilliant Ross, how long we've just talked about so many things from Product Specialist, sales advisor, store manager turnaround store manager.

Ross Forder: 1:58:56

Deliberately coach covering Western Europe in the Middle East, working sort of with regional directors.

Andy: 1:59:00

I'm chuckling because it's just phenomenal and not as balmy. Incredible. Well done you for that. Yeah. No hats off. Very, very. People will be listening to this episode thinking, you know, how old is this guy, but that was all condensed into four and a half. Yeah.

Ross Forder: 1:59:20

And that's that's what you know, a startup that's growing that quickly that can be achieved. It wasn't easy. I mean, it's a huge sacrifice has to go into that. And sometimes you can have the sacrifices and things still don't work. Right. And it may not work out in your favour, but fortunately for me, it did and it takes a lot of sacrifice to get better. Again, same same sort of mentality. Luckily, I had it I just stumbled across the continuous marginal gains improvement mentality early on. I had no idea what it was. I was just relentlessly wanting to improve. And I

Andy: 1:59:49

did you find it? Was there a book that you came across?

Ross Forder: 1:59:53

Well, to be honest, I was I didn't quantify it too. I was part of that the that training programme. It was just something that I sort of was just on a roll. Okay,

Andy: 2:00:01

it was a mindset you had it was a behaviour you had. Yeah. And then you discovered it had actually been given a name and was being applied. Okay.

Ross Forder: 2:00:11

And suddenly the speakers around the world that talked about this, and there's books and I mean, early on, I had no idea. I was just Yeah,

Andy: 2:00:16

it was your natural way of approaching tasks. Okay, so you did leave tasks, or after four and a half years, they promoted you, that does sound a very gracious thing to do sends a good message for each remote to do on departure, what caused you to leave?

Ross Forder: 2:00:33

So during my time at Tesla, it became apparent to me that animal agriculture creates more greenhouse gas emissions than all transport combined. So part of my motivation at Tesla was this ethical piece of we need to electrify transport to the environment, for the atmosphere, and so on and so forth. And then come to realisation that not yet. Sure. That's a big problem. Absolutely. It is. However, there's a bigger problem in the agriculture and food industry right now. It's literally a lot. It's a larger problem. That was bit of another wake up call for me to understand, okay, the mechanics of what are driving some of the success of Tesla in terms of electrification of transport, the same mechanics that need to drive disruption within the animal agriculture, food industry. You know, if you look at peak oil, we think oil was potentially going to run out at some point, well, we're going to eventually run out of that water and feed and everything else we need for a future population in the next 20 years, etc. So we came across that larger problem. And then at the same time, in 2016, I was coming across companies trying to solve that problem like Beyond Meat, they've re engineered, basically, were engineered sort of plant proteins to resemble meat proteins. And these these patties were, you know, he taste could smell like a real beef burger made from plants. So it's similar lightbulb baby, when I saw that supercharger video, Tesla in 2012, it was like, that's the future. I saw this bigger problem in animal agriculture, coupled with these technology companies based in California, again, you know, recreating meat from plants to solve that problem, which is in terms of the test the concept, there's lots of viruses that, believe it or not, and I just said, again, as in 2016, I was like, that's the future. I was another like surefire bet the same as predicting Tesla in 2012. On the future, for me, that is the app, the same thing, we have to improve and disrupt the industry. Now, here's some key core technology players that come into the space, this is the future of how we have to consume me as a species at some point, whether we want to or not, it's unsustainable to carry on doing what we're doing. So we have to at least move the needle somewhat. And then I and then sort of having these realisations understanding that and appreciating that probably quite early in those estimations, meaning that you can, again, that growth trajectory trajectory that you can get within the market would be apparent there as well, combined with the fact that, you know, when you're part of a sales team, particularly training team in 2016 2017, and Tesla, at this stage had only been there two, three years at this point. But it was obvious to me on the inside this company, we push the snowball to the top of the mountain pretty much and it was now starting to roll down the other side. It was you know, Thor is never too anyway. But now on the inside and 26 2017 Tesla is going to be an absolute global powerhouse automotive manufacturer. There's no, if there was any doubt before, there's no doubt now. And so I thought, you know, we need to now push the snowball up to the top of the mountain in this other industry. And because I'm sort of quite early to the party of this, maybe I can scratch the itch of wanting to launch my own business, which I've always wanted to do back to that self starter stuff as a self employed personal trainer back to my parents, having been entrepreneurs themselves. Maybe now because I'm, you know, I've got I've got the time ahead of me. Now, I've also never been able to do this without my Tesla experience without all this, with all the Tesla experience combined. Maybe now I can do something in this industry. And so big idea initially, it was like, why can't we create meat for plants, like Beyond Meat, like impossible, these other big companies were doing and at the time, I made the decision that we possibly could, nothing's impossible. But I decided that actually, you know, it'd be great to create a restaurant that features these products, because when these products land, which they will inevitably, most restaurants are just going to have one option of you know, vegan burgers and example on the menu. And, and that's it. Whereas for me, this is the future of how our species will consume protein. And this, this should just be the menu. You know what along the way, I guess probably worth mentioning, I was very fortunate enough to be in meetings with Elon Musk. And You quickly learn when you're in meetings. We don't mask that nothing's nothing outside the laws of physics is actually impossible. Nothing. It's all probability. It may not happen. But it is literally a degree of probability. And that's it. So why can't I go and start my own business? Why can't I move the needle? Why can't I be successful over there over there in that industry, I can you know, whether I will I will be or it won't be is still up for the future to decide. But, but I could. And so because it's a larger ethical problem. I shouldn't be of course to this and I should scratch the itch to start doing business and so evenings weekends and started working on a restaurant concept as I started working in 2016, in what very little time I had a Tesla evenings, weekends, and I would go on holiday my holiday which would be working on this restaurant concept. And basically was gearing up Beyond Meat launch into the UK and I was on the phone with some of their executives 2017 Because they were quite small, but they just got to deal with whole foods in America. That was it. No one had heard of them. burgers made from plants that tastes actually like me. Yeah, again, it was the test the thing for 2014 Never heard of this. This sounds crazy. But I was again, so sure that this was going to be huge in the future. And we got ourselves into a position where in 2018, I developed out the restaurant concept, which is now Halo burger today. And we launched our proof of concept site in pop Brixton, after I determined that it wasn't going to be able to sustain working for Tesla and launching Halo, but at the same time, and we were one of the first restaurants in the country, certainly the first vegan restaurant in the country to launch Beyond Meat. We were the first restaurants globally to take Beyond Meat reform into fast food sized patties. We're very much a fast food style restaurant. And now of course, you know, three and a half years later, many restaurants serve Beyond Meat. They've now IPO that unicorn company worth $4 billion. Now, it's obvious that there's moving this direction. But yeah, thankfully, managed to get there early on and company have three sites are in old streets, Brixton and Bryson. And basically showcase the latest animal protein replacement technology and a fast food joint format. So a meat eater could come in, eat the burger and say, Well, okay, that's that's doable. You know, we don't do the quinoa and kale burgers, you know, there's, there's no size of carriers, unfortunately, many, there's decent salad laces down the road, I recommend. But if you're coming for that cheap meal day, then the idea is that, you know, even a staunchest carnivore can eat the burger and say, That's doable, I can do that that's actually tastes without tastes like a regular burger. I really enjoy this, this isn't a compromise, you don't have to compromise. And this isn't a sacrifice, similar to owning a Tesla. Owning a Tesla is not a compromise. In many ways, it's better, it still looks like a car, a great one, the performance is unbelievable. It looks good. And all this kind of stuff with the burger that we created using Beyond Meat at this point. It tastes good is better for you, it's better for the environment. There's no animal involved. And so you know, why would you not choose that option over an actual burger work, which does compromise on these elements?

Andy: 2:07:28

It's fascinating the parallels that there are between the AV industry and the food industry. And that the as you say, the mission that you have switched across to do you know, how big was the relationship between the problem represented by animal agriculture and the problem of internal combustion engines? How big how much bigger is animal agriculture, a problem versus cars?

Ross Forder: 2:07:56

Yeah, this this to be fair, there's quite a lot of debate about this. But for to but to cut through the debate, but for what I see, I think it's a few percent. So it's bigger, but it's not sort of like off

Andy: 2:08:08

base, at least it's at least the same size. And it's bigger. Yeah. And yet so much attention. Well, this is just my perspective, so much attention appears to be devoted to getting people into electric cars, which is, which is actually a much harder thing to do, than to, you know, we've all gotten, it's much easier for us all to change our diet a little bit than it is to go out and buy a Tesla. And then obviously now there are many more electric vehicle options available, but it's still significant. It's the second biggest purchase we make after our home. So whereas buying our burger is right there in the everyday decisions I can make that will help the planet and also my health, and also the animals, they also benefit, they also benefit from not being killed. So it just it does sound like it makes a lot of sense for us to make that switch across. And I'm inclined to absolutely agree with you that it is only a matter of time before humans no longer eat meat, you're ahead of the game in the same way that you were with jumping to Tesla. How long you think it will be before eating more plant based becomes less or becomes more acceptable? Or more comments?

Ross Forder: 2:09:24

I think that I see it as about five years. But personally, this is a complete gasp of my progress. I see it as around five years behind the electrification of transport. So how prolific the electrification of transport is I feel like the vegan movements about five years behind so what we've seen the last three years so when I started in 2018 You know, this was just crazy people couldn't believe I was I was a vegan restaurant that's gonna last about two minutes a vegan restaurant that's not serving that serving specifically these animal protein substitutes and that's bizarre was going for that and then in three years to the number of vegan and UK alone has gone up sort of 400%. And Sainsbury's now predicting that the number of vegans in the country by 2025 alone will be a quarter of the population and these vegetarian by 2025. So we are now seeing sort of that growth curve just start to go up dramatically, particularly in the last two years. So I've kind of also talking in paradigm sets here, I think the paradigm is even people that were rubbish at electric cars five years ago, and now like, yeah, tax is huge. And it's only a matter of time, it may not be my next one, but it'll probably be the one after that, you know, we kind of I feel like at that stage now, which is huge for electrification of transport, whereas we've got a few more vegans, and we've ever had more vegetarians were bad, and the flexitarians and the folks that aren't there to commit to go fully vegan, but are you happy to have a meat free Monday, they're happy to have a juicy sort of decent vegan burger, and they're still going to be that they're going up like crazy. It's the same sort of growth curve, where you have the early adopters, you have the laggards. And you know, still, we're still in a relatively early adoption phase in veganism, but it's happening so fast. And the technology of these products is improving so so quickly, even the beyond burger has gone from it was still a great product initially three, four years ago, but the iteration has been so rapid that now it's, it's orders of magnitude improve. Now today is what it was. And what's going to happen is, there will be a huge inflection point, in my opinion, this is inevitable. As one of the other reasons to jumped into this is that what's going to happen is if you look at the economics behind raising cows, just look at the economics around where agriculture is a reason that factory farming represents what is it 70% of all meat is in the UK and the state has over 90% The reason is it's quite expensive to raise a cow. how expensive it is to have a dog or a cat Whoa, people whinge about the vet bills, they whinge about how expensive cat food is, and you're talking about a cat. extrapolate that to a cow times that by amount of cows, we need to eat as many burgers. And we do it's not cheap. We've made it cheap because of heat subsidies that industry. We've made it cheap with absolutely ruthless battery and factory farming methods to extract as much value as we can out of those products because that's what we see it when it seems obvious products. And so here we have a process where Bill meat is exactly that reforming pea protein into the reforming the structure of it to resemble animal protein. It's in its infancy still now, it's matured a lot. But there's, if you just look at those two concepts, the vegan meat replacement burgers are in just a handful of years literally gonna be indistinguishable to a Michelin star chef. You know, you could give this to already today to someone at a barbecue and they'd say, Wow, that's just a burger, they would know you guys vegan, they go on my mind has been blown. But maybe a Michelin star chef or something he could he could probably tell still, but that's going to change. And then also what's gonna happen or give back to these two concepts is creating these things will be cheaper than making beef. Once there's economies of scale within that process that without a shadow of a doubt is going to be cheaper than manufacturing beef. So then you've got a point where you've got it's as good as your Michelin star chefs gonna go I don't know what's different. It's cheaper, is better for your health is down have evolved, and it's better in your environment, you are absolutely left with almost no reasons whatsoever to continue the the actual meat version. And at that point, you've got like, it's just saying, Well, I've just, I've just got to keep eating meat, because that's what I do. Or I've just got it. I'm just gonna keep driving diesel, because that's who I am. And that inflection point is going to change everything. And it's going to come a lot sooner than people think.

Andy: 2:13:24

Good. Good. I'm pleased to hear your view on it. Ross. And have you noticed and this is a really difficult time to have set up your business through in hospitality. You might not even be able to tell. But have you noticed an increase in the three years you've been

Ross Forder: 2:13:40

training? Absolutely. Yeah, we've had 70 Just even during the pandemic alone, which is Yeah, has been challenging for sure. But during the pandemic, our business grew 70% We had record sales during the pandemic deliveries specifically, particularly knocked down to just through the roof, which is which is great. Yeah, there's a lot more delivery focus now. So a lot of lot more folks, the convenience factor having having food delivered than eating. So so that's that's an interesting sort of shift. But the demand for vegan products has gone up orders of packages over the last years. The understanding that the niche that we've presented ourselves in as the most realistic treating replacement sort of products, is now understood to be one of the largest components of that sort of industry and vegan movement. And that luckily, you know, we've been very deliverable products the whole time. So yeah, even during COVID we've had significant growth and revenue which is great because plug here we're raising soon so we're going we're going to be investing over the next couple of months for our next site, a fully fledged restaurant and to complete becoming scale ready here. We want the halo burger to be a household name, both domestically and internationally in the future, you know, lofty goals with us, same as it was a Tesla. And yeah, we will we will go into market for fundraising next month. to secure them,

Andy: 2:15:00

if people are excited, and they want to get involved in and they also believe what you're saying, Ross, and they agree it's inevitable, and they want to help and invest is there? You know, do you want people to contact you? Is there a minimum criteria of individual or investment that you're looking for?

Ross Forder: 2:15:20

The the, the very specific structure of the raise, we're just in the final details at the moment. But I could say that, like, if anyone's has any interest at all, I'm always happy to talk to them. And so you can find me on LinkedIn, Ross folder. That thing? I think there's one other Ross folder. So the one that the one that works at Tesla is available on LinkedIn, and I'm happy for people to approach me Yes, always happy to chat.

Andy: 2:15:43

Marvellous. You talked about having a paradigm shift earlier in your life where you went from being Tory boy to much more liberal. And I had a paradigm shift of my own this year, we we stopped eating meat in January, we did the veganuary promotion project, which is absolutely wonderful. And we have not looked back. And that was contributed to by Spencer Halil, who was one of my earlier guests, a friend and former colleague from BMW, who told me to watch a Netflix show called game changers, about athletes, athlete vegan athletes, and also recommended a couple of books, I think it's called The China Study, then Veganuary came along, and we started out and it's been wonderful. You said, we don't see them as animals, their products, as that has shifted, it's something has changed in my head. Now I cannot differentiate between the dog that lives with us and a pig or a sheep or a cow. And once I'm completely comfortable, if people haven't, you know, if people haven't had that paradigm shift, and that's a short buy. But certainly once it's happened, it's very easy, then you don't Yes, you know, to behave differently afterwards. So this is what the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, which I go on about a lot. The foundation of that book is about paradigms and how once you get the paradigm, right, if you operate at that change at the level of the paradigm, then the rest seems to be a lot easier. So I'm a huge supporter of what you're doing. And so pleased to have you, as my guest be so pleased to know you. Pleased to have you as my guest on the show and grateful for you sharing your incredible journey so openly and with such humility, and the ups and the downs of the stuff you didn't get right and the stuff you did get right and are getting right. Thank you very much, Ross.

Ross Forder: 2:17:37

No Thank you. Its been great to catch up with you this morning. Thanks for the opportunity.

Andy: 2:17:44

You've been listening to Career-view Mirror with me, Andy Follows I hope you found some helpful points to reflect on in Ross's story that can help you with your own career journey, or that of those you lead parent or mentor. You are unique. And during my conversation with Ross, you'll have picked up on topics that resonate with you. A few elements stood out for me. It was a tale of paradigm shifts like the one from being conservative to liberal and his outlook. The growing self awareness that informed those paradigm shifts his conscious focus on mastering his ego, and how doing so freed him to grow and become a better leader. The eventual realisation that he wanted to do work that was ethical and had a positive outcome for others. The motivational benefits of friendly competition, I was working on the Tesla stand at the Goodwood Festival of Speed event, when he and Alex were heading up competing teams, gathering leads, and booking test drives and taking deposits. And the way in which they did that the spirit they brought to it and the results they got definitely stuck with me. Of course, working towards a higher purpose. He mentioned with humility that he's been in meetings with Elon Musk and how that's left him with the appreciation that if it's within the laws of physics, then it's possible. It's just a matter of probability. Finally, his focus shifting to the animal agriculture problem, which is at least as big as the internal combustion engine problem, and the parallels between the Tesla mission and the vegan mission. Having been so certain of Tesla's impending success having seen the supercharger concept, he's now equally convinced that when plant protein matches animal protein in all aspects, there will be no reason not to switch. If you agree with Ross and are interested to find out more about investing in Halo burgers future please reach out to him via LinkedIn. We publish these episodes to celebrate my guests careers, listen to their stories and learn from their experiences. I'm genuinely interested in what resonated with you. If you have any comments or questions for us. If you have any feedback, or if Ross's insights have helped you please let us know by leaving a review Your feedback helps us grow. You can leave a review on Apple podcasts or pod chaser or you can find the episode on our Instagram at Career-view Mirror and comment there. Thank you to all of you for sharing your feedback so far. Thanks also to Hannah, our producer. This episode of Career-view Mirror is brought to you by Aquilae. Aquilae is a boutique consultancy in the auto finance and mobility industry. We offer our expertise as a service to help you design and deliver projects that develop your business and the people within it. Contact me if you'd like to know more. To be among the first to know about upcoming guests. Follow us on Instagram@Careerviewmirror. Whilst you're doing that, check out@HaloburgerUK that's@HALOBURGERUK and feast your eyes on their mouth watering vegan burgers. And remember folks if you know people who would benefit from hearing these stories, please show them how to find us. Thanks for listening