Ashley Thurn is a mother to three little ones, a pediatric occupational therapist, and feeding specialist by trade. She has a background in nutrition, sensory integration, holistic wellness and she specializes in picky eating and feeding disorders. She loves helping families navigate the many challenges that come with feeding children and it is her joy to help families find strategies to help nourish their growing children and expand their children’s diets to eat a more variety of nourishing foods.
Join us as we chat about all things nutrition, sensory, and picky eating!
You can find all of her links below.
Looking for more in-depth help? Sign up for 2-on-1 Mentoring With Us!!
We’d love to answer your questions on the podcast! Fill out this form -> https://harkla.typeform.com/to/ItWxQNP3
Brought To You By Harkla
This podcast is brought to you by Harkla. Our mission at Harkla is to help those with special needs live happy and healthy lives. We accomplish this through high-quality sensory products & child development courses.
Podcast listeners get 10% off their first order at Harkla with the discount code "sensory". Head to Harkla.co/sensory to start shopping now.
Links
Ashley’s Instagram @thewholisticot
Helping Hands OT
Veggies are Friends Flashcards
Mineral Blend-Multiple Minerals Supplement
All Things Sensory Podcast Instagram
Harkla Website
Harkla YouTube
Harkla Instagram
Ashley Thurn is a mother to three little ones, a pediatric occupational therapist, and feeding specialist by trade. She has a background in nutrition, sensory integration, holistic wellness and she specializes in picky eating and feeding disorders. She loves helping families navigate the many challenges that come with feeding children and it is her joy to help families find strategies to help nourish their growing children and expand their children’s diets to eat a more variety of nourishing foods.
Join us as we chat about all things nutrition, sensory, and picky eating!
You can find all of her links below.
Looking for more in-depth help? Sign up for 2-on-1 Mentoring With Us!!
We’d love to answer your questions on the podcast! Fill out this form -> https://harkla.typeform.com/to/ItWxQNP3
Brought To You By Harkla
This podcast is brought to you by Harkla. Our mission at Harkla is to help those with special needs live happy and healthy lives. We accomplish this through high-quality sensory products & child development courses.
Podcast listeners get 10% off their first order at Harkla with the discount code "sensory". Head to Harkla.co/sensory to start shopping now.
Links
Ashley’s Instagram @thewholisticot
Helping Hands OT
Veggies are Friends Flashcards
Mineral Blend-Multiple Minerals Supplement
All Things Sensory Podcast Instagram
Harkla Website
Harkla YouTube
Harkla Instagram
The atmosphere around the dinnertime table is really the most important thing that you can do to help your kids enjoy a variety of foods. So, as far as environments goes, you want to make it as stress free as possible, which I know you guys are parents so I know you guys know, it's, it's challenging. It's challenging to do that. But the best thing that you can do honestly, is sit down and have your meals with your kids.
Rachel:I'm Rachel.
Jessica:And I'm Jessica. And this is all things sensory by Harkla.
Rachel:We are both certified occupational therapy assistants and together with Harkla. We are on a mission to empower parents, therapists and educators to help raise confident and strong children of all abilities.
Jessica:On this podcast, we chat about all things sensory diving into special needs occupational therapy, parenting, self care, overall health and wellness and so much more.
Rachel:We're here to provide raw, honest and fun strategies, ideas and information for parents, therapists and educators as well as other professionals to implement into daily life.
Jessica:Thank you so much for joining us.
Rachel:We are so happy to have you back for another episode of All Things Sensory. Wwe are Rachel and Jessica and we have a fantastic interview with our friend Ashley Thurn, who is a fellow occupational therapist. She's a pediatric OT, feeding specialist, health and wellness lover. And currently she is at home, homeschooling her three children. Holy cow.
Jessica:I can't even imagine. We start by chatting about picky eating because that's kind of an area she specializes in. But then we end up diving into some other topics like nutritional deficiencies, toxins, and of course, we're going to give you some tips and tricks and some things to try at home and don't get too overwhelmed with because we do cover a lot of ground in this episode. But just take one small thing and run with it.
Rachel:Yep, you're gonna love her. She's great. So informative, but without further ado, let's meet Ashley. Okay. Hey, Ashley, how are you today?
Ashley:Good. How are you guys? Thanks so much for having me on.
Rachel:We're happy to have you.
Jessica:All right, we are going to ask you five secret questions before we jump into all of the things we're going to talk about today.
Ashley:Yay.
Jessica:Great today here.
Rachel:Yeah, we were feeling a little spicy when we wrote these.
Ashley:Okay. I don't know if I'm ready for them. But okay.
Rachel:Number one, what is your most toxic traits?
Ashley:I'm definitely like a drill sergeant with my kids. I'm a perfectionist, and like a control freak. So having kids, I have three kids, it's been like a learning. I mean, every parenting is just learning but especially for a perfectionist control freak like you can't you have no control over literally anything. So it's been a it's been a learning curve for me. Yeah, that is perfectionism. Perfectionism for sure.
Jessica:What is something that you're really good at? That very few people know about?
Ashley:Very good. Oh, no, I don't I mean, I'm very good at cooking but I feel like most people know that because of my age, but I can't think of something that needs to go along. A hidden talent. I'm actually really good at massage and I feel like I'm like I feel like I need to go get training like formal training at it because I'm really good at like finding where people are really tense and like releasing that.
Jessica:Will you come visit us?
Ashley:It's like I want you to go to like chiropractor school. I'm like, No, I'm not doing that. I want to get training for this, but I'm always wanting to like go get training for more. I'm sure you guys know because you're a therapist as well. There's so many great courses and all that so I'd love to get training in massage someday.
Rachel:Okay, what is one thing you believe that most people
Ashley:I believe that most. I guess that Western medicine is a don't? cure all to make your kids healthy. or pharmaceutical, either or
Jessica:That's something you believe in that most people don't believe in.
Ashley:I think that most people believe that Western medicine, and Pharmaceuticals is like a cure all for keeping your kids healthy. You don't, but I don't believe that.
Rachel:I like that that. That makes perfect sense. This is why we all great.
Jessica:We're on number four. Which do you believe is most likely to be real? Ghosts, aliens or bigfoot?
Ashley:I don't believe in ghosts. Really. I mean, no. There's been so many weird things on the news lately with all this crazy stuff with these weird like Chinese spies. And then I don't even watch the news. But I heard some people were saying it was like, alien activity, right?
Rachel:We were just talking about this.
Ashley:I didn't really watch. I like heard it secondhand. And I was like, what? I just have to like, tune out the news. So that's just the world's crazy right now. But I would probably say Bigfoot. Or you don't really believe like, I'm not a big Bigfoot person. But I've listened to a couple podcasts about like how giants used to exist and things like that. So I don't know. I think Bigfoot over ghosts and aliens.
Jessica:Are you in the Pacific Northwest? Where are you?
Ashley:I'm In Miami, Florida. Yeah, I didn't know that. I'm way over here.
Rachel:Wondering how tan and beautiful right?
Ashley:I have a little bit of Indian in me, like very small. And I my skin has always been so dark like, so my mom has skin like that, too. But yeah, I am always outside though.
Rachel:Perfect. All right. Our last question and our most favorite one of all, what is your sensory quirk?
Ashley:I am extremely sensitive to sounds. I like hyper. I don't know why. But like, I can't even let like my husband, like listen to the music really loud in the car. And I'm like, no. So one of my strategies for parenting is like earplugs. When I get like overstimulated. I just like the most helpful tool ever. Because I just don't like loud sounds and I like sends me into fight or flight. So I can totally understand how kids on the spectrum feel because I feel that way too. I didn't realize it until I had kids.
Jessica:That was gonna be my follow up. Question was were you sensitive to noise before you had children?
Ashley:I think I probably was, but I didn't know.
Rachel:There wasn't a way you know.
Ashley:There wasn't as much noise.
Rachel:How old are your kids?
Ashley:They're nine. six and two.
Rachel:You've got the whole gamut of noises.
Ashley:Yes. And now this year, I'm homeschooling them. So it's like constant noise.
Rachel:You know, yeah.
Ashley:Yeah, like four or five o'clock, I come into my quiet space and put in my earplugs.
Jessica:On that note, can you tell our audience who you are, what you do and how you got started?
Ashley:Okay, well, I'm Ashley Thurin. I was a pediatric ot for somewhere around 10 years. And now I stay at home with my three kids. And I run a page on Instagram that's all about educating parents about picky eating, as well as nutrition for kids. And, yeah, that's who I am! There's a lot of other stuff on my page as well.
Rachel:Well, that's why we're gonna have you here today. That's why we have you here today we want to talk about nutrition, picky eating deficiencies. You know, we have a lot of listeners who do have picky eaters or selective eaters. And really, one of the things that we're so passionate about is finding the underlying why. And if we can help people recognize, hey, there might be XYZ going on. Let's look into that. Let's, you know, figure out who we can talk to you about that. That is the goal.
Ashley:That's awesome. Yeah, I became really interested in the Okay, let's start by defining what picky eating is versus underlying root causes of all the things as an OT really early on, probably like my very first pediatric rotation. I was like, normal selective eating. You got a two year old right now. So what? Why? You know, like I was researching, like, what, what is how common is autism? How common is ADHD and why? I didn't know anything about it at the time. But I always had that driver that I wanted to learn more. Because I knew it was I knew it was rising every year. And I wanted to know, more. So that's what sparked my interest in all the underlying culprits other than my own health challenges as well. you're probably I'm hoping you're going through that because I am! I am going through it. Yeah, yes. It's even as in as an OT, right? It's like still so challenging. Yeah, even my two year old is going yeah, he's going through the picky eating face right now. So the biggest thing that I learned once I went back to school to get training and feeding that I was like, a mind blowing fact, for me was that feeding is a continuum. So we have on the left side, you have like normal eaters. And then in the middle, you have picky eaters, which some of them are just going through a developmental stage, which is really common from the age of two to four. Some kids get stuck Can you share some of the potential underlying causes of in that picky eating phase, anything past the age of five can be something you want to look more into. But and then all the way over on the right, you have resistant eaters, some people call them problem feeders. I don't really like that terminology that much. So you said, define those for you. Yeah. So normal eaters would be a child who likes to eat, enjoys eating, and eats a variety of foods, their parents would call them a good eater. So those are, those are really the main parameters for like a normal eater. And then you have the picky eaters who can be a little bit more selective, they have less variance in their diets, they might have some, certain textures that they avoid, they might have some food aversions, but they still in the end, eat enough calories and variance in their diet to maintain a healthy weight, have a healthy relationship with food, etc. So even though they have certain aversions and things like that, they still are able to eat enough foods. And then we have the resistant eaters over here. There's really like three big, I would say, red flags, the first thing would be like a very limited diet, somewhere around 10 to 15 foods or less. So one thing that your audience or people could look at is like just writing down how many foods that your child actually eats. And once you look at it on a piece of paper, then you can say, Oh, they are actually eating enough foods, you know, it's they're just, they're just a little picky, and that's okay. But these eaters are really, really limited in what they will eat. And then the second thing, or the second red flag would be, they eliminate like an entire food group, like protein or fruits and vegetables, it's usually either one of those or both. So they just will not eat protein at all, or they just won't eat fruits and vegetables at all. Which can obviously contribute to nutrient deficiencies. And then that third thing, it's a big red flag. Very common is extreme anxiety around food around mealtime. Things like tantrums, screaming, gagging vomiting. These are the kids that scream if you put a food on their plate that they don't like or if you change a certain brand of pasta, they'll have a tantrum. And these kids have a difficult time maintaining a healthy weight having a relationship with food. Mealtime is incredibly stressful for everybody, the whole family, more so than it is for us with just normal, picky eaters. picky eating so what's causing this extreme picky eating to happen? So there's so many that it's hard to even like talk about all of them. because we have like environmental factors that you have to look into things like mealtime being a really stressful environment for the child. Or another really common thing is just the family just doesn't have structured meal time where they have other people in their family that are sitting down and eating with them. So that's a really big common driver in terms of like environmental stuff, but then we have underlying contributors like sensory challenges, but then we have the nutritional factors as well. Two of the most common underlying nutritional factors would be things like mineral imbalances, zinc deficiency being the most common and gut dysbiosis, things like Candida and fungal overgrowth. Those can affect the microbiome in a way that you're not absorbing, and assimilating nutrients from the food that you're eating. And then, yeah, so the zinc is really interesting to me, because since it's so common, because the kids aren't eating protein, they're not eating meat. And that's where you can get a lot of zinc from, it actually makes food smell less appetizing to them. So this can affect their appetite, obviously. And you guys know about how closely, the olfactory sense is linked to your taste. So these foods just doesn't taste good to them. And so it just, it's like a continual driver. It's like they're deficient in zinc. Food tastes bad to them. So it just perpetuates the problem. If you know what I mean.
Rachel:What about like with the gut dysbiosis, the Candida, the yeast overgrowth? How can that impact their ability to want to eat new foods or try new foods?
Ashley:So imbalances in the gut, things like Candida, it kind of makes it difficult for you to absorb nutrients, and a lot of these kids are already really low in them. So it just, it just drives the mineral imbalances, even even higher. It also can contribute to things like sensory challenges, cognitive challenges, as well. Because a lot of the neurotransmitters are made in your gut lining. So impulse control, and all of that, hyperactivity, making it difficult for them to even sit down. It can also be a driver of sensory challenges, which is like the main thing that picky eaters all have is sensory challenges.
Rachel:And we know the connection between the gut and the brain. If the gut isn't healthy, the brain is not going to be healthy. And I think, you know, it's easy for parents to overlook that aspect of, you know, not necessarily the child being a picky eater, not eating, but like, let's look at the whole picture. Let's look, you know, let's look at the underlying cause. Because if we can get the gut figured out, that can improve the brain health, and then maybe from there, they'll be more flexible, like you said, the impulse control and things like that, being able to process sensory input better.
Ashley:Right. And also, I was thinking of something when you were talking, oh, I was thinking of Candida is is common in antibiotic use and you know, antibiotics are so overprescribed in the US. What's interesting about Candida as well in relation to picky eaters, is it can really give these children a drive to constantly want to eat these starchy carbohydrates and dairy products, which is the basis of a picky eaters diets most of the time. They mostly eat lots of French fries and chicken nuggets and white breads. So when you have dysbiosis of something like Candida, they're craving these foods because those foods are what feed they give sugar to the yeast. And fungal overgrowth overgrowth as well just keeps driving into into an issue and most of the time people don't get to the underlying underlying problem.
Rachel:Did you share any other like symptoms of candida
Ashley:You can have things like on the skin, you can have rashes overgrowth? you can have on the toes and fingers you can have, like funguses grow. There's also ways to tell by like looking at a child's tongue, they can have like a really white coated tongue. Because we know the tongue is connected right to the GI tract. So it's just a reflection of what's going on in the gut. So with thick, like white coating on the tongue is a really telltale sign of Candida. But there's there's obviously testing and labs that you can run that help you to figure out what's what's really going on. And that's really the only way to figure it out. Like you can look at the symptoms, but testing is really the way.
Jessica:My question was, who can a parent go to to get this looked into? Because I feel like if they just go to the regular pediatrician, the pediatrician is not going to know about this.
Ashley:Right. And it's something I'd really love to do in the future. When I have more time. It's like work individually with, with patients and run labs because I am trained to do it. But basically, what I always tell people is that there are providers out there, they're not the easiest to find, like you said, it's you can't just go to a regular pediatrician that's going to even holistic pediatrician, sometimes they they completely miss the gut brain connection. And they don't know the proper labs to run. So I trained with Great Plains laboratories, and they have a database where you can go and type in where you live. And you can look up providers in your area who are trained to run these specific labs for the microbiome, nutritional markers. And all of the you know, there's a lots of other things to like that we haven't talked about the lots of other labs, you can run with them.
Jessica:Great Plains laboratories, Great Plains. Yeah. Great, because we'll link that in the show.
Ashley:Yeah, that's a good way. There are there are pediatricians out there but and some of them take telemedicine. People ask me that a lot of my patients, I'm always like referring people to different pediatricians that I know have, you know, the telemedicine patients as they're out there, just hard to come by.
Rachel:We just started working with a functional pediatrician, I started working with a functional practitioner myself, because I'm like, I haven't had bloodwork done. And I never, I'm like let me get a baseline and found out like zinc was a big deficiency. And I'm like, talking about I was like, Oh my gosh, that's so interesting.
Ashley:Yeah, so many people are deficient and things like I'd say magnesium and zinc, like everybody, because it's just so low in the the foods that we eat, it's just, you know, we're not eating nearly enough of it. And it's just our soil as well as depleted of minerals, but so many different things that contribute to that.
Jessica:I know more about magnesium than I do about zinc. So you said zinc is found in meat.
Ashley:It's found in like ground beef and steak, lamb as found in oysters are like the highest source, which what kid is getting my head does not eat oysters either. But you can still get you know, enough sync by eating meat. You can just like ground beef. And as well organ meats. They have blends that I think are helpful for parents know like, what, what can I do because my kids not going to eat an oyster. They have organ blends that are like blended into ground beef. Have What we have like we like split a cow with some friends and you you guys heard of that? Yes. It's like you buy the ground beef, but it's already has like a little bit of organs in there. And so organ meats really high and loss of these minerals that we're talking about. So that's an easy way and it doesn't taste like you can't taste it. It's like a small amount. can like get the liver and freeze it and just like shave some of the liver into the ground beef. Yeah, I do that but I didn't think that like other parents would be doing that. But that's why we like each other because we have all this in common. Yeah, I put I buy big like pate cubes. And then like I'll just put them in a little. But that's an easier way to do it. I saw that recently. And I was like, Oh, that's a lot easier. Just grind it up. Put it in a in a like an ice cube tray. And then just add a couple of cubes have that that's a good way to get in minerals.
Rachel:My coworker just made liver pate for my daughter as like she's you know, she's like give her liver and I was like"So nice!".
Ashley:Wow, that's a nice coworker of yours.
Jessica:So I'm just thinking I know in the health and wellness and fitness and nutrition world right now there's so many people who are vegan or vegetarian. What about those families? Like how if they're not going to incorporate meat into their diet?
Ashley:I think that that's a huge challenge. I think it's a really, really huge challenge that I don't think a lot of people think about other than minerals. Just things like omega three fatty acids, how are they getting that in their diet, too? So yeah, it's a question for sure. I don't know, I think a lot of times these kids, because, you know, there are signs of mineral deficiencies, like you can see them, the hair growth or delayed hair growth, thinning hair, thinning nails, that's a telltale sign of deficiencies, but it's needed more than ever, because they're, their brains are growing every day exponentially.
Jessica:I heard once that dark under eye circles are sign deficiencies, is that correct?
Ashley:It can be a sign of nutrient deficiencies can also be a sign of food allergies, environmental allergies, mold, things like that. And also a lot of different things. That's why testing is so important.
Jessica:low in anything or not. But I know, like, my mom has dark circles under her eyes, I do, my son does. So I'm like, maybe there's just like a genetic thing in our skin.
Ashley:I mean, you never know. So that's why testing is so important, though. You never know what's going on. Yeah, that's true.
Rachel:So one thing that I have learned, so we got like, we got a water filter, like a reverse osmosis water filter. And so what I've learned since having that is you have to put minerals back into the water. So for a kiddo who is maybe deficient in minerals, you know, is there a supplement that they can take? Is there an easy way to just make sure that they're getting those minerals that maybe they're missing? Or aren't in the water? They might just drink? Yeah,
Ashley:There are there are mineral drops out there that have couple of them I've tried are really bad. Like, I know that my kids, they hated it, it tastes terrible. But there are decent brands out there where you can just do some drops in the water. I don't think that it will cover like everything, but it's better than nothing. That was when you're filtering the water, it filters out everything and filters out the chemicals and also takes the minerals out as well.
Jessica:What are a couple of the brands that you would recommend?
Ashley:I was loving Cellcore, that's my favorite brand. But you have to have a practitioner code to order from them. And they just switched over from their droppers to a pill brand. So I like the dropper is better for kids because it's so much easier just to put it in their water bottles. So I tried a new one, just this week, and I don't even remember the name of it. Sorry, but I can send it to you. I can send you some links to a couple and you could put it on your episode if that's helpful. That'd be great.
Rachel:Let's let's talk about some strategies, like environmental, regulating the nervous system around mealtime, improving the environment to promote success at the dinner table or the meal table.
Ashley:So this was another eye opening thing for me. Other than just learning that feeding as a continuum. Just learning that the atmosphere around the dinnertime table is really the That's something that we stopped doing too, as you know, focusing most important thing that you can do to help your kids enjoy a variety of foods. So as far as environment goes, you want to make it as stress free as possible, which I know you guys are parents so I know you guys know, it's, it's challenging. It's challenging to do that. But the best thing that you can do, honestly, is sit down and have your meals with your kids as much as you can, you know, you're not going to sit down three times a day perfectly every time. But as much as you can try to have family mealtime a priority, and serve a variety of foods. serve a variety of foods that you enjoy and don't cater to your children by you know, you don't want to cook this meal because your children aren't going to like it. You just serve healthy meals for your family. And you sit down with them and you enjoy it yourself. That's like the best way, the best strategy. There's different strategies that I can talk about too that you can use to help your kids overcome. You know, all kids have, you know, a little bit of a fear of fine of trying new foods, but the best thing is just to make it as joyful make it happy may have You know, try to have fun and try to relax. Because, because when a child is already fearful of trying new food or trying foods, and then you bring them into this very stressful environment where you're stressed out, or you're counting bites, or you're trying to force them to eat, then that's what they learned. They learned that mealtime stressful, and what that does is it shuts down your child's appetite, because the child goes into fight or flight, which that, you know, I know you guys notice it, it shuts off your appetite cues. So the best thing you can do is try to try to help them to relax and enjoy being there at mealtime and learn that feeding is good. It's it's fun. It's really good experience. It's a social activity. so much on are you eating? Yeah, it's hard.
Rachel:It's hard to stop looking at him while he ate. Yeah, we started talking, "Hey, how was your day?" And now when we sit at the table Tripp will go, "So what did you say? How was your day?" Yeah, that's been helpful for for sure.
Ashley:Yeah. Don't sit there and stare at your child and count bites, which is so hard to do. Like, I'm right there with you. I have a two year old who's like, trying to get down from his chair every five seconds. Like as much as you can. Don't focus your attention on them and what they're eating focus on what you're eating, and the social aspect of, of the meal conversation. Because the more attention that you bring to it, the more that they will feel that you're trying to force them. And we know kids naturally resist persuasion. So it's just a fun thing about kids.
Jessica:Well, I'm sitting at a meal to eat a meal table. And, you know, having people stare at me while I eat like that would make me so uncomfortable. If the other people at the table were watching the whole time.
Ashley:Oh my gosh, yes. Or someone using a spoon to feed you every time. And it may not be something that you even like. Can you imagine that?
Rachel:We're scraping the food off your face. In our house, you know, we've got our two year old and he, he now like is sitting in just like a regular chair, he would rather sit in a chair. So he gets down mid meal, and go play. And so we're navigating that challenge. And he got down, you know, we don't have the TV on or anything he just wanted to play played for a little bit. We were all just still sitting at the table talking. And he came back and he looks at me and said mom I came back. And he climbed up and he had another bite. And I'm like, I'm glad you I'm glad to be back to join us, you know, because it's so hard to be like sit in your chair, don't move, stay there.
Ashley:It's hard.
Rachel:Oh, okay, this is nice.
Ashley:Yeah, you want them to have the drive the internal drive, you want that internal drive to turn on. And then that like, this is good. This is a good thing that I want, I'm hungry, and you want them to make that connection between when I'm hungry, I sit down and eat. But it's also hard. Because if you're trying, you worked hard on this meal, you want everybody to sit down. So it's challenging. But yeah, there's different strategies you can use for that as well. If you want to go that route, or if it's working for you to ignore it, and he comes back on his own, then that's working for you.
Jessica:I do think that, you know, setting up the meal table as a positive experience, as a social experience, is a great tip, because so many families are so busy nowadays, that they kind of rush it. And it's like carve out 30 minutes of your evening with your kids and have a meal and ask them how they're doing, how was their day at school, whatever it is, and then talk about your day at work or whatever you did and, you know, build that relationship during that meal time to make it an experience.
Ashley:Yeah, there's also a ton of research that shows like kids who sit down with their families for mealtime have, like 10 years down the road have less depression and anxiety and a lot of psychological issues. So just sitting down and just taking that time to connect with each other. It's just really important for families but really, especially for kids. But yeah, take that, take it take the pressure off of food and like you said, make it a joyful experience for as much as you can. Yeah.
Jessica:And stop staring at them.
Ashley:And stop staring at them and forcing them to trying to force them to eat because it's just gonna backfire. Because then the more that you try to get them in, trust me, I've been And I was just thinking, it's not helpful to teach or that, there and I still am. Even though I know all of this, I'm still tempted to do like the counting bites thing. The more that you do that with that specific food, just think the next time that you offer that exact food, that's what they're going to remember in their mind. Last time that this was here, I was really stressed. And she was trying to force me to eat it, and I didn't like it. And so they're going to be less likely to try it the next time that you do that. you know, that's not helpful to help our children understand interoception and signs of hunger and signs of fullness. And yes, be able to understand like, Okay, I have to eat five bites, whether I'm hungry or not. And to navigate this with my son, he's nine, and learning if he says he's full, I'm not going to force him to eat more, because I'm him to know that he feels full. And I don't want to have a negative association with that or over eat. And nobody can tell that except for the child themselves. Like, we can't tell whether or not they're hungry. You they may like a lot of times when they are rejecting a meal, like could obviously be from they just snapped a few hours ago. But also, it could be, you know, they haven't had a bowel movement, because that that makes a really big impact on whether or not you're hungry. So nobody can really tell if a child is hungry, except for the child. So it's hard. It's hard to release the perfectionism, the control, it's hard to move that over to but as they get older, you want that to be internally driven. You want them to have cues to be like, Okay, I don't need to keep eating because I'm full.
Jessica:That kind of makes me think about all of the parents that we've worked with, and families we've talked to who say, you know, my child, kind of they snack throughout the day they graze.
Ashley:That's a big issue as well. There's so many issues with kids. And it's hard to like, pinpoint what's going on. So that's why you really have to, like observe the family and see what is mealtime like what's going on. And I would say about 50% of the time lot of it has to do with the environment, or something like an outside factor, like grazing all day, or exposure to too many snacky foods, or maybe the child is still drinking milk. That's another thing that really impacts the child's hunger cues is because milk is really filling. It's literally like protein, fat carbohydrates. It's a full meal. So yeah, so parents serving a bottle or a cup of milk, a few hours before a meal. The kids just not hungry. So then they're learning this negative association with with mealtime like, why are they forcing me? I'm not hungry? So yeah, there's a lot of lot of environmental factors as well.
Jessica:And it's tough because a lot of these kids can't verbalize or can't communicate it because they don't know how to communicate it. Right? What about the families who struggle with getting their child to eat a meal? So they let their child graze all day? And they say, but if I don't let my child graze on the snacks, they're not going to eat?
Ashley:Right? Yeah, that's a really common thing. And I think a lot of a lot of like, fear goes into that, when you have a picky eater. A lot of times, the parent will start doing either the short order chef style, like, I'm only going to cook, what would I know that they'll eat, so they're going to stop serving the variety of foods that maybe they would want to serve, because they have the picky eaters, so they're going to cater to them, or they'll make one meal for the family, and then they'll make a separate plate for the picky eater. And that obviously just keeps driving that limited exposure to textures, limited exposure to smells, and just further exacerbates the issue. And then the other thing, like you said, is is grazing on snacks all day. Because they're worried, well, if they don't eat this, they're not going to eat anything. That's another, that's another issue. I mean, there's always a place that you can start, you know, there's always a place that you can start. You can, you can start with that same food that that they will eat and you can put it on a plate with a few other foods and maybe they're not going to eat it, but you're exposing them and you're making it more of a meal or more of a balanced meal, not just like a cracker. You're putting some Cheese and maybe a couple of blueberries on the plate, you know, there's always somewhere to go from wherever you are.
Jessica:Yeah, so I think so that recommendation of like if your child is grazing throughout the day, but won't sit down for a meal would be maybe to take away some of the grazing and try to bring them to the table instead.
Ashley:Bring them to the table. Yes, I mean, if they're really concerned about if this is something they really want to tackle, then obviously, they can either work with a professional, but the first place to start is, is getting your child to sit down because they have to be able to sit down and, and learn. It's important for digestion, digestion to sit down. And so yeah, you got to start by structuring three meals a day, three meals a day two snacks. It's a lot of work. But, you know, it's important for kids to learn to eat so. And it's our job, it's also our job, as well as mothers. And surprisingly, a lot of a lot of parents don't, I don't know, I guess they don't prioritize it.
Rachel:I think it's a lot that has to do with our lifestyle, our lifestyle is so busy, on the go. And I think that we just sneed to top and slow down and realize that it's okay to not fill our schedules with 37 extracurricular activities, to just sit down for 30, you know, use a visual timer or a visual aid for a child who wants to sit at the table and just start by using visuals and model it.
Ashley:Yeah, the lifestyle factor is huge. I mean, somebody's working. Yeah, so one lie. And you don't have to feel like you have to sit down three times a day. That's what I'm saying. But like, one time a day, the research that supports all of this stuff that, all of the psychological positivity is in the future, says one meal a day. So you could just start there dinner time, well, you got to do breakfast.
Jessica:And when all these kids with this extreme picky eating, they have anxiety and sensory processing disorder, and these other challenges that come with it, and routine and structure for those kids especially is so powerful. So if you can add mealtime as part of their routine and structure, they're going to be more successful.
Ashley:Yes, yes, children with sensory challenges, really respond well to structure . It might not be fun at first, because obviously, they're gonna have tantrums they want all, you know, I always say that it really takes the parents to really want to make the change, you can't, you know, if they're really in a place where they really want to make a change, they want to see their kid eating a more varied diet than they're going to prioritize this more and try to make their day more structured and try to incorporate, you know, regular mealtimes and more nutritious foods.
Jessica:Well then change his heart. So it just really takes that patience and consistency if you really want to make the change.
Ashley:Yeah exactly.
Rachel:The long game in mind, you know, not just short term.
Ashley:Yeah. I mean, there are I will say that there's, there's
Jessica:Yeah, I think it's a good place to start if certain picky eaters that I would, you know, they're, they're so restricted in what they will eat, you know, they somebody's struggling in this area. really need to work with a specialist. So not all of them.
Rachel:So I want to know if you had one product or supplement to But for the most part, the normal picky eaters and even some resistant eaters. Just starting with that just starting with making mealtime a priority, and like sitting down and having regular meals together can really help a lot of the issues, cutting out snacks, cutting out not cutting out snacks completely, but trying to make snacks a little bit more balanced. Not just packaged foods, etc. can really help a lot of the normal picky eating challenges. recommend our families look into I know it's it's difficult because everyone's so unique, but if there was one thing to look into, to help a picky eater thrive, what would be your go to?
Ashley:Are you talking about supplements or food?
Rachel:Supplement, products, just something that you've seen success with?
Ashley:Well, you know, I created a product that "my veggies are friends". A product that I sell on my website. That what it's called veggies our friends. It's a it's a set of flashcards, A through Z. Every letter is a different fruit or vegetable And on the back of the card is like a cute little picture of each vegetable. And then on the back of the card, it describes the color, the taste, the smell, the texture and like different fun sensory activities that you can do with your child with that specific food. And so you could pick like one card a day or, or a couple a week.You could bring them to the grocery store with your child and have them find those specific foods. And then get your kids in the kitchen, get their hands on that specific food because that's, that's really the key to helping your child to eventually eat a food is getting their hands touching the food first before they're ever going to smell it or bring it near their mouth.
Rachel:Veggies are friends!
Ashley:With supplements wise, that's really hard for me to say, because I know I talk a lot about like different nutrient deficiencies and all that. That being said, I think sometimes like blindly supplementing kids is doing, doing them more of a disadvantage. So I like to see kids getting their nutrition mostly through food, or at least food based supplements. So that's what I've really switched over more, more to with my own kids is supplements that are, are food based, like vitamin C from foods, they have vitamins that are made from cherries, etc. And then because we absorbed them better that way. A lot of these products even for kids, even the organic ones, there's synthetic, so I don't like I don't like a lot of supplements for kids. I have a good probiotic that I love. And I do give my kids supplements, but I try to keep them like food based think it's really a lot better.
Rachel:That's the advice that I needed.
Ashley:Food is the best way.
Jessica:How do you know if a supplement is food base? Like can you tell by the ingredient list? Will they promote it as being food based?
Ashley:Yeah, yeah, the ingredient list. Definitely, yeah, like you turn it over, and you read the ingredients. and almost all of them. It's just so frustrating to me now that I've learned a lot about this and how, you know, a lot of the synthetic vitamins, the kids just can't absorb them. Or even as adults, we just don't absorb them or they're not in the proper ratios of what I would like. So like, they do have
Jessica:I do like how you put that advice of like, look, supplements that have like oyster extract. And obviously they have liver, liver supplements as well that are just ground up powder. But again, even that I wouldn't just blindly give to everybody. Because, for example, liver can be really high in copper, which most people need but, but for some kids, we're finding out more that kids on the spectrum can have really high copper, because they're so low in zinc, they can have really high copper. So sometimes supplementing with liver for kids on the spectrum can do a little bit more harm than good. Because it's adding just more copper to their already copper overload. So zinc base foods, foods, that are high in zinc, are better for kids on the spectrum, in my opinion. everyone's different. We can't just, you know, put the same shoe on everyone, because they're also different. So I do appreciate that you look at it like that, because many people don't.
Ashley:Yeah, it's so important. It's testing is key for these kids. Really, I mean for kids on the spectrum, but also picky eaters. So I hope that...
Jessica:Parents too, you know, because there's this huge genetic component that we're seeing out and it's like if your child is autistic, or if your child has ADHD or sensory processing disorder, like you probably have some things going on, too.
Ashley:Yeah, start with you, which was in my case, that's where it started. It's like my whole health journey, kind of like spurred into. Okay, well, like I had said, I was always interested in the underlying drivers. But then once I started having health challenges and was able to overcome them with with food and detox and diet and all that, then I'm like, Okay, well, I want to learn more about how kids with ADHD and autism, how are they going to overcome so that's why I went and got that training. And that's what I love. I love that. I love the picky eating aspect. But I also really love all the nutritional and underlying stuff going on as well.
Rachel:I want to pick your brain.
Ashley:It's so interesting. It's so interesting. I mean, there's so many things. So I always say like, you have the deficiencies, which is huge, which we talked a lot about. And then you have also which we didn't talk about is like the toxicity component, which is really, really big today. You have there was a study by EWG that said, an average baby born in a US hospital had something like 200 industrial chemicals in their cord blood. So babies are just coming into the world with this, this toxic load that they just can't handle. So there's just a lot of, so you have the microbiome imbalances, you have the nutritional deficiencies, and then you have that toxicity component. And not everybody has all but everybody's individual. And so that's why it's good to look under, try to look at the whole what's really going on.
Jessica:Yeah, the toxins thing is so interesting. And I read a book recently that talked about all of the different things in our environment, you know, we have furniture and clothing and carpets that have the flame resistant chemicals, which then gets into our system and overloads our system in that way. And, you know, being indoors so often.
Ashley:The air you breathe, the water that you drink.
Jessica:Water, and then the process food, it's just I think it can be overwhelming sometimes.
Ashley:I get overwhelmed. Yeah. That's like, honestly, that's one of the biggest challenges on on my page is I want people to be aware, and I want to educate, but I don't want people to fear and I also don't want to drive into this, like this food perfectionism. And as a perfectionist myself, I don't want to I don't want to. It's hard. It's hard to educate without bringing a lot of fear into it, because I don't want to bring that. The more you know, you're like, okay, but I can't do everything perfectly. You just have to make small changes that work for your family that makes sense. Over time, you just, you know, you can't overwhelm, it is overwhelming. If you start thinking about the whole thing, like where do I start, but you just make small changes, like getting a good water filter, and you're, that's the most you know, good first step for any family is getting getting clean water, because you're drinking it all day. And it's, it's crazy how many chemicals.
Rachel:Our bodies are just full of water. So I love that. Air. I always say air and water, and like what you put on your skin and in your body.
Ashley:Yes, just start there. Or for many families, it was just starting with one thing. And like, once they start with one thing, then they're not so overwhelmed. They're like, okay, I feel better about that, then maybe they can either financially, like it's a strain financially to then maybe like an air filter or spending more time outdoors or just opening up in your windows a couple, maybe a few times a week, is good. Or going outside more?
Rachel:Oh my gosh, Ashley, you have shared so much wisdom.
Jessica:Like we just go on for so long.
Rachel:Thank you so much. You have your Instagram page. We will link that in the show notes for people to it's the holistic ot will link your your cards, the veggies or friends. Anything else that you'd like us to incorporate for people to reach
Ashley:Oh, no, I think that yeah, I have a website that has out to you? lots of my recipes. I used to write them down a lot more than I do now. But I still have a ton of recipes on there that are really good for families of picky eaters, or just someone who's trying to make a more healthy switch. So yeah, you can always contact me on Instagram.
Rachel:I did see your quinoa chocolate recipe. And I was like Oh my God.
Ashley:You did a really good I like made my own of like what I always find the store.
Rachel:So good. We're gonna try that. So thank you. I feel like everyone can take something away from this episode.
Ashley:Oh, thank you, ladies. It was so nice to meet you guys. I feel like we're in person, but we're not. But thank you so much for having me on.
Rachel:Thanks, Ashley.
Ashley:All right, thanks.
Jessica:Make sure you go follow Ashley on Instagram. She's at the Holistic OT. We'll link everything in the show notes, the different companies that she mentioned all of her information, definitely go check out her card game that she made. That's super fun and cool. I feel like you could use that at home. You could use that in therapy. You could use that for so many different things. So definitely go check out all of her things.
Rachel:We love getting to chat with people who have so much information to share and who are very passionate about sharing this information. So you can tell just by looking at her Instagram, she is excited to be in the kitchen, excited to share recipes. I'm gonna go home and make some chocolate quinoa. And hopefully you can benefit from that as well.
Jessica:If you like this episode, make sure you send it to a friend. You can also leave us a review on iTunes or I think you can do on Spotify too. And you can always screenshot this while you're listening to the episode and tag us on Instagram at all things sensory podcast. And with that, I grab here. Okay, we will chat with you next week.
Rachel:Thank you so much for listening to All Things Sensory by Harkla.
Jessica:If you want more information on anything mentioned in the show, head over to harkla.co/podcast to get the show notes.
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Jessica:We are so excited to work together to help create competent kids all over the world. While we make every effort to share correct information, we're still learning.
Rachel:We will double check all of our facts but realize that medicine is a constantly changing science and art.
Jessica:One doctor or therapist may have a different way of doing things from another.
Rachel:We are simply presenting our views and opinions on how to address common sensory challenges health related difficulties, and what we have found to be beneficial that will be as evidence based as possible.
Jessica:By listening to this podcast you agree not to use this podcast as medical advice to treat any medical condition in either yourself or your child.
Rachel:Consult your child's pediatrician or therapist for any medical issues that he or she may be having.
Jessica:This entire disclaimer also applies to any guests or contributors to the podcast.
Rachel:Thanks so much for listening