#253 - The Benefits of Mud Kitchens and Outdoor OT with Daniele, from Boise Outdoor OT

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Daniele Fallon, OTR/L is the owner and sole practitioner of Boise Outdoor OT in Boise, Idaho. Her practice provides direct, individual, outdoor occupational therapy services for young children along the Boise River and within her outdoor mud kitchen facility. In addition to providing OT services, she also runs a Mud Kitchen Kids and Loose Parts Play Enrichment group during the spring, summer, and fall to promote increased outdoor play and sensory integration.

Daniele has experience working in skilled nursing facilities, teletherapy, sensory gyms, and as a contract school OT for the New York Department of Education - the largest and most diverse school system in the US. Upon moving to Boise, she became an outdoor educator at Everwild Forest School and continues to serve on their advisory committee.

Daniele was contracted by Idaho AEYC to create teaching modules for early educators on the benefits of outdoor play, sensory integration in the outdoors, and how to set up a mud kitchen in early educational classrooms - in addition to presenting these topics at their professional development institutes throughout Idaho.

This fall she is excited to partner with the College of Western Idaho to support incoming fieldwork I students to promote the benefits of outdoor play to future occupational therapy assistants. Daniele is the proud mother of 2 girls, loves living on the river with her husband, and has a deep love and respect for the therapeutic qualities of nature.

Boise Outdoor OT

Daniele’s Instagram @boiseoutdoorot

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Transcript

Danielle: 0:00

You know, it's like that that pyramid of learning that, you know, the top, the very top is, you know, epidemics higher learning. The bottom is all of our foundational senses. And so because kids are not getting outside, like they used to, and they're spending so much time indoors, that ground level is not being built as secure as it should be. And there's gaps in those foundations. And zero to seven is when children are like sensory processing machines. And that is the time where we need to get them outside, moving their body in big ways and experimenting with their bodies and seeing what their bodies can do and touching many different you know, tactile experiences, rolling on the ground, you know, all the activities that children do, so they can build this foundation strong.

Rachel: 1:02

I'm Rachel.

Jessica: 1:03

And I'm Jessica. And this is All Things Sensory by Harkla.

Rachel: 1:07

We are both certified occupational therapy assistants and together with Harkla. We are on a mission to empower parents, therapists and educators to help raise confident and strong children of all abilities.

Jessica: 1:18

On this podcast, we chat about all things sensory, diving into special needs, occupational therapy, parenting, self care, overall health and wellness and so much more.

Rachel: 1:28

We're here to provide raw, honest and fun strategies, ideas and information for parents, therapists and educators, as well as other professionals to implement into daily life.

Jessica: 1:39

Thank you so much for joining us. We have something really cool to offer you today. It is April, and April is ot month. And in celebration of OT month, we're bundling some of our favorite digital products together and giving them to you for a discount. We're gonna call this the OT digital bundle. I like that because the digital courses that we've bundled together for April, will just help you become a better therapist.

Rachel: 2:15

They're not only beneficial for therapists, but because we are celebrating ot month, which is occupational therapy, we are giving our primitive reflex course our sensory diet course as well as our three skills courses, which include gross motor skills, fine motor skills, and visual motor skills. And so you're going to get all five of those courses, which is a $220 value for only$149, which is basically 50% off.

Jessica: 2:49

Almost a 50% off discount for five courses. Just kind of a quick rundown if you're not familiar with our digital products, our primitive reflex course, we teach you how to identify routine primitive reflexes, as well as provide you the specific exercises to help integrate primitive reflexes. So it's great for therapists or parents who are learning more about primitive reflexes. Our sensory diet digital course teaches you how to identify sensory preferences, how to meet the sensory threshold, and how to put different sensory strategies together in order to help your child feel regulated in order to get through their day. So another great one for therapists to help them better understand how to help their clients. And then like Rachel said, our three skills courses, the three skills courses are very activity based. So our fine motor skills course gives you a ton of new therapeutic activities to work on fine motor skills. Same with the gross motor and the visual motor courses. So those three are really awesome. If you are looking for more treatment ideas.

Rachel: 3:57

You can take advantage of this sale, this bundle, this fabulous discount we are sharing through the end of the month. So if you're listening to this after April, I'm so sorry, you know, but you missed out maybe next year, I just want you to know that we appreciate you listening to our podcast, we appreciate the consistent support. And you know, this is just a little way of saying thank you and go OT.

Jessica: 4:24

Yes, exactly. The link to take advantage of this bundle is going to be in the show notes but the link is harkla.co/otmonth. Again that's Harkla h a r k l a.co/otmonth. Okay, now we can jump into the episode.

Rachel: 4:48

Okay, enjoy. Hey there, welcome back. We're so happy to have you. We have an exciting conversation today with our friend Danielle who is a local occupational therapist and she is the owner and sole practitioner of Boise Outdoor OT here in Boise.

Jessica: 5:08

Her practice provides direct individual outdoor occupational therapy services for young children along the Boise River which is so cool. And within her outdoor mud kitchen facility so she also runs a mud kitchen kids and loose parts play enrichment group during the spring, summer and fall. She has experience working in skilled nursing facilities, teletherapy, sensory gyms and as a contract school OT in New York. Danielle is also a mother to two girls. She loves living on the river with her husband and has a deep love and respect for the therapeutic qualities of nature. She is our kind of person. Nature is therapeutic. And so I love talking to anyone who also believes that

Rachel: 5:56

Yep, so without further ado, let's meet Danielle. Hello, Danielle. How are you today? Welcome.

Danielle: 6:04

Good. Thank you. Thank you. I'm super excited to be here. Thank you for the invitation.

Jessica: 6:10

Awesome. We are going to start out with our five secret questions. Question number one Who is your celebrity crush?

Danielle: 6:20

Um I don't know if she's a celebrity, but she is my celebrity. Angela Hanscom, the author of Balanced and Barefoot.

Jessica: 6:30

Oh yes.

Danielle: 6:34

My gosh, I just love her. She has been my my biggest inspiration on my journey to doing outdoor OT. And so when I see her speaking or I can grab a video. I mean, my eyes are like stargazing because she really, she cracked open my worlds in regards to just looking at children and how they engage outside. So my heart is with Angela.

Rachel: 7:05

Put the question Who is your biggest inspiration? So I guess this, you know, killed two birds with one stone. It was perfect.

Danielle: 7:11

Yeah, she really and when I got her book and read, it was it was just at that point where I was like transitioning my, the way I practice. Everything that I was sort of looking at was changing. And then when I finished her book, I was like, Okay, I know where I'm going now. Yeah, she's a big inspiration to me.

Rachel: 7:32

Okay, our next question, would you rather lose the ability to read or write for the rest of your life?

Danielle: 7:43

Probably what we're not typing and I still type?

Jessica: 7:47

No, that's probably part of writing.

Rachel: 7:50

No expressive language here.

Danielle: 7:54

Well, I'm a big reader. But you know, I have audiobooks. And I'm a I'm a big writer, I really love to write, I think I would have to hit the audiobooks. I couldn't lose the ability to write, because I'm a writer at heart. So I think I would have to go to the audiobooks and be able to continue to write. Technology you know?

Jessica: 8:15

All right, next, what is your favorite dessert?

Danielle: 8:19

You know, a classic chocolate chip cookie. I just cannot deny it. I'd say yes, homemade soft. That one, I would say that's my favorite dessert.

Rachel: 8:32

Going to have to make chocolate chip cookies tonight now. What is something that you're proud of yourself for accomplishing?

Danielle: 8:41

You know, I'm really proud of myself for accomplishing my outdoor practice. You know, it was a big hurdle for me. Just mentally, competence wise, really following those polls and whispers of passion and trusting in myself. It was really, really challenging. Um, so I'm really, and it's my latest endeavor, so it's fresh on my mind. So I would say that.

Rachel: 9:12

Awesome. Love that.

Jessica: 9:14

Last question. What is your sensory quirk?

Danielle: 9:20

Too much auditory input. My children are so loud. They're so loud. I mean, I'm kind of a loud person too. So maybe they get it from me. But it's just noise. And I haven't invested yet, but I've seen the like, little earbuds for mothers. Every time I see an ad for that. I'm like, I need to get that.

Rachel: 9:43

I try those from an auditory person to an auditory person. I tried them and I didn't like them because I could hear myself breathe and chew and swallow.

Danielle: 9:55

That's really funny.

Rachel: 9:57

So I have to have the over the ear noise cancelling.

Danielle: 9:59

Oh, Okay, but that works. Right. Okay, that's good advice. Yeah, it's auditory input is just too much.

Jessica: 10:08

All of the sounds that you yourself were making

Rachel: 10:10

They were amplified when my ears were plugged. Enough about me, tell us what you do, who you are, why

Danielle: 10:14

I mean, that is pretty funny. you do it, all those beautiful things. My name is Danielle, and I'm an outdoor occupational therapist. And I'm a solo practitioner, and the owner of Boise outdoor occupational therapy, I run one to one direct services out here in the Boise, on the Boise River. And I have an outdoor facility where I do mud kitchen kids and loose parts play enrichment classes. And I usually do those in the spring, summer and fall. And so you know, I am all about getting kids outdoors. I started off as an OT, in a skilled nursing rehab facility. Because when I first started, I really wanted to work with a geriatric population. I love older adults, and always had really tight relationships with my grandparents and my father, he passed away. And it was kind of like my connection to him just being able to continue to work with that population. And I really loved it. And I did it for a bit, but then I had my my daughter and motherhood, you know how it cracks your world open. And the hours were really late. So I was working in New York City, in doing rehab, and just coming home on the subway at like seven o'clock at night. You're like, oh, this is not going to be a good work balance for me at all. All my friends had graduated, and they were all working at schools, and they're just like, Daniel, you know, get in the schools, you can spend more time with your family have that work balance. And I thought, you know what, let's try this transition. So I ended up working in New York public charter schools, and I just, I loved it. I really enjoy working with children. And then you know, like, at the same time, I had my daughter. And so all I wanted to do was just learn about pediatric development, because you're just so fascinated with this human being in front of you. And of course, you know, I just wanted to give her my all so I thought, you know, this is this is definitely where I want to spend my time and spend my time educating myself and I was working in schools. So then I was working in that pediatric population for a while. And, you know, I worked in a lot of charter schools that had a lot of restricted access for movement for children I worked in, I hit a handful of them where it was, like, you know, your hands were folded at your desk, everything needed to be quiet, they were filing in lines, hands couldn't be moved. And I worked in a couple of those charter schools. And I was just like, wow, I'd never seen anything like it before. And so when they would have their ot sessions with me, I was like, okay, like it was their chance for them to unwind and to move. And I just saw so much need for movement for them. So I would seek out, instead of staying in my ot office, I was like, Let's go we're gonna go to the playground. And I would just get the kids outside as much as I could, because it was the most space for them to move. One of them had like a big football field on the top of the building. And so we would go up there and I would play soccer and football with the kids. I would look for the basements in the buildings where we could just scoot like, you know, use a scooter boards everywhere, or spying on the gym where I can find the gym that was open, just always looking for those big spaces. So kids can really have those big moment, those big movements that proprioceptive input, that vestibular input because I knew they had these long days. And the culture of the school was very kind of restrictive in those areas. But that was when I started, like really enjoying getting the kids outside. And I was just like, this is where the kids occupation is to play. It's on the playground, it's outside that is their central domain. So it just made sense to me. And you know, and that was, you know, a lot of times OTs in schools, they kind of stay in their office and they work on handwriting and it's just session after session after session. So I was trying to be more intentional about really finding those big spaces for my students. And then the pandemic, the pandemic hit, and I started doing teletherapy and I did teletherapy for or maybe a little bit over a year and a half. And during that time, my sister in law recruited me to Boise, which was a quick and easy sell. I came here, I was like, Wow, you guys live here because of place. So, we moved out here. And as we're moving, it was the height of the pandemic. And I was was like, what are we going to do with our girls, you know, online learning is not going to be a good fit for them. And that was the year that ever wild forest school had launched their program. And I saw that and I was like, yes. You know, just like, inside, everything is like, this is where we're going. They had just launched and she was looking for educators. And I thought, Oh, my goodness, maybe I can be an educator in there, I can get my kids in there. You know, my daughter was young at the time, she was four. And she was still like, really sort of nervous about going into places and areas by herself. So I thought maybe I could be her teacher. And I can get into this program. And I'll juggle the teletherapy. And I'll do ever wild. So we moved here. And a week later, I started at ever wild. I was running a group of six kids with my own two daughters in there. And the first day I showed up, I was just like, oh my gosh, I felt like a child. I was like, this is the most just like everything in me was just, you know, just like when you find your space or your people, everything was just lighting up. I was like, oh my goodness, this is the most spectacular thing I've ever seen. My kids loved it. You know, my younger daughter, she had some you know, tactile sensitivity. She was very, like standoffish about a lot of things. At the end of the year, she's like digging for worms picking up roly-polies, pulling over logs, picking up frogs. And the growth that I saw with children out there was just mind blowing. And there was a particular child that you know, from day one, Miss Danielle, hold my hand, you hold my hand, I always had to hold his hand for everything over every log. When we were in the river, every rock, I was helping him balance. And that was just our thing. I was just always there for him coregulating him, it was kind of a scary atmosphere for him. And then to see him slowly transition. And then like my last image on the last day of ever wild school, we gathered underneath this huge tree, we call it the tree of life. And I was kind of far away. And from a distance I saw this child run across the field, launch himself up on this tree, it had this, it had this root that just kind of was huge, and just went really far along the ground, launched himself up the tree, threw his hands out in a T and just balanced his way across the whole tree. And I just sat there like, like almost in tears. And that was the moment I was like, I need to work outside. I don't know how, I don't know how, but that just needs to happen.

Jessica: 18:10

It's those moments when you see their self confidence just blossom that you know you're in the right space.

Danielle: 18:18

Yeah, it was like the year of magical learning for me, for my children. And then you know, to remember that that was the height of the pandemic, where children were not getting outside, they were not socially engaging. And so it was just this magical place where the kids would show up. And they could be kids. And they were running wild and experimenting and getting dirty. And it was just, I think just to because it was such a hard time it made it even more so I think the experience was just so much more magical and intense because of everything that was going outside. It just had such a profound impact on me. And that was kind of like the switching point for where like my next step was going.

Rachel: 19:07

So it really hasn't been that long. So you worked at ever wild and then you hoped to open your own practice.

Danielle: 19:14

Yes. Yes.

Rachel: 19:16

Tell us a little bit about that.

Danielle: 19:19

So it's awesome. I just love it so much. It's so cool. You know, I work one on one with kids. And every session looks so different. You know, we're family centered practice and, you know, our goals are the family's goals, the child's interests. So, you know, every session is different, like I could have, you know, one family rolls up and they're taking out a balance bike and you know, right now I'm teaching a 10 year old how to ride a balance bike on the greenbelt. I mean there's the the fact that we have the river the rocks, we have this amazing Greenbelt bikepath that goes throughout the whole city. So with her we jump on the green, the greenbelt, we're working on our postural stability, our balance, our coordination, our visual motor, and we, you know, working on play, she's 10. She wants to ride a bike. She wants to be with her friends. Her parents have a big summer vacation, planned where they want to ride bikes. So this is her family's goal. This is her goal. So I asked her mom, hey, you know, can you take those pedals off her bike, let's just hit the green belt. Every time you guys show up, we hit the green belt, she shows up with her bicycle and we spend the whole time riding our bikes. There's other children that they show up and they hit the mud kitchen, they grab their tools, and they're like, let's we're doing the river. They want to be in the on the river the whole time. So you know, we're going down hills, and we're working on our body awareness and balance on the rocks. We're balancing on fallen logs. We're, you know, it's usually like Danielle, let's go let's go on an adventure. And that just means let's go into the forest. There's children that show up and they just head straight to the mud kitchen, they know that I'm gonna have a big water cooler filled with warm water. And we just start making mud pies and we're digging in and I usually have buried treasures like gems and diamonds that I put in there beforehand. And it's just they like to stay in the mud kitchens, the big old mud fest. I have another child that their parents show up with a tricycle. We go in the greenbelt and he goes like full throttle for like 15 minutes, just like he just goes he goes for 15 minutes. He's just he's in that he's in that phase right now where he's just all about the tricycle. And then his parents pick him up and he's like yawning for the ride home. So every treatment session looks really different. And you know when you're outdoors for every season, every season is so different. So you have winter oh my goodness, like the natural affordances of winter, the snow, the snowmen, the ice, then you have summer I bring out the waterplay, you know, sprinklers we are in the river, fishing, pulling up things with nets and then you know you have ball with the leaves and I bring out sleds and we sled over the leaves. And you know, every season is like a new outdoor clinic. So it's just so versatile. It's always changing. And in nature's always changing. You know, we used to have this huge log that sat out in the river and it was like our special log place. And then when summer, the the river filled up and it floated away, it was gone. And everyone was course our spot, you know. So it's it's always changing, which is another beautiful, lovely thing about outdoor OT.

Jessica: 22:57

Well, the wonderful thing about Idaho is that you can be in the middle of a season and each day is going to be completely different weather wise.

Danielle: 23:07

Exactly, yeah, as I was saying that I was thinking about all the various things that even happen in this season. You're so right,

Jessica: 23:14

Right now, pretty good. degrees 50 degrees out right now. And yesterday, it was like 30.

Danielle: 23:19

Yeah, yeah. Which, you know, and that's another like, wonderful aspect of outdoor OT is because there's things that are out of my control, like the weather, and a lot of these children, you know, you're working on flexibility, the ability to adapt the ability to find different solutions for things. And when you're out in nature, nature sort of has a big role in whether these things can be done or not, they can't look to me and be like Danielle, move this. You know, if I was in a clinic, most likely, I probably put it there or I arranged it in a way. So I technically and they probably know that I have the power to move it and change it around. But when you're outdoors, like I had a particular child where I'm working on this exact skill, he wanted me to get a huge, it was a huge rock and it was like buried into the dirt. And he wanted the rock you want because we were picking up rocks and he wanted this particular rock and I could see him start to slowly become dysregulated he was getting really upset. And I knew there's no way I can pick up the rock but I tried just to show him okay, let me try, let's see what I can do. And I tried. It was so heavy. You know, see if you can help me. But no matter what was happening, there was no way that rock was going to happen. I wasn't able to pull it up and then I just was like, I can't It's too heavy. I can't get it out of the ground and I stepped back and I just remember him like staring at it and just like having that, just processing I'm not gonna be able to get it and that's how like nature cofacilitates these treatments, and takes off some of the control. For me, I'm kind of I adventure out there with them. I'm kind of like, we adventure together. And then nature plays this role as a cofacilitator in our sessions.

Rachel: 25:16

I love that. I love that.

Jessica: 25:18

Do you ever do any of your sessions indoors?

Danielle: 25:23

Very, very, very, very rarely, I do have this space. Um, if maybe a child becomes really dysregulated, due to weather, I'll definitely bring him in the office. And I have like a whole closet filled of OT toys. And then there's one particular child where a big focus is on handwriting. And I definitely work on all those foundational skills. But you know, at the end of the day, I believe a child needs to be in the occupation of the pencil and the paper and writing and I that's what I use that desk for. So for him, it's probably one child is I use this office more, but I would say for the majority of sessions year, children, it's very minimal, very minimal.

Rachel: 26:08

So have you ever had kiddos who are so tactically defensive? They refuse to touch the mud. And then by the end of, you know, a few weeks, they're covered in mud? Like, have you had any cool success stories like that?

Danielle: 26:23

Yeah, definitely, in all varying degrees. I have, because it's, it's interesting that I do I have a lot of children on my caseload that have tactile challenges, very hypersensitive to the input. And this is another reason why I love outdoors and mud kitchens, because when a child is super interested and motivated, and in really engaged in what they're doing, it really helps to work on those areas. So I would start off with I'm just thinking about particular children that I worked with. One of them is very, very, very, very, very sensitive to the dirt, but he loves playing in the mud kitchen. And he loves making potions, and he loves making pies, he just loves the activities, but it's like that sensory component. So I don't think I have one child that refuses to engage, it's just the way that they engage some of them, you know, they'll let the tips of the fingers touch, you know, and, you know, you I, you really have to, obviously, you know, the child. So with some children, I start off by offering them tools, so they don't have to touch but you know, most of my tools are dirty, because my kitchen is dirty. So even though I'm offering them a tool, so they don't maybe have to directly touch it, they're holding a handle, that's pretty dirty. And even that is like a real win for a lot of these children. You know, this particular child started off with gloves. I mean, it was colder, but it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't that cold, but it was kind of it was more used for the the mud play, because when we weren't in the My play, he would take the gloves off. So he would use the gloves for the mud play, but and I've seen them Okay, now we don't use the mud play. And we use, we're handling tools that are dirty. And you know, I love to give the kids a sense of control. So I have hand stations all around there. So they can go when they feel they need to wash their hands, they can do it. And I do I observe less trips to the water cooler to clean the hand. I observe the tool, we sit down and grabbing like pots and pans with their bare hands. And I just noticed the subtleties of not having to clean the hands anymore. Getting in there and holding the pot that has dirt all over it not having a problem carrying the tool. And then you know, some I have some children that they won't even squat on the ground, they kind of like will stand over it because they don't want to sit on the ground. You know, so then I noticed, okay, now the child's squatting. They're getting low to the ground. They're getting into the earth. So you notice these subtleties. And then, you know, and there are the kids that kind of do get really dirty were like, well, that's a big, I've seen a big progress there. But most of the kids it's more of the subtle progresses. And then when I'm doing the mud kitchen groups, and there's more of a social dynamic involved. I feel like the kids see other kids or the other kids invite them in and you see a lot of progress there too.

Jessica: 29:41

Oh, that social component is huge. Do you bring those changes to the child's attention when you notice that they're improving their tolerance of touching different textures? Do you say anything to the child about it?

Danielle: 29:57

You know, I don't I don't I just let them, you know, I try to back off. I try not to talk that much. And I try not to be a therapist. I just play. I just kind of let it naturally evolve. Because, you know, all the examples I told you, then they just start doing it. I just feel like their action is so much more powerful than my narration of it. And you know, and the parents tell me to like, my, one of the parents will be like, you know, Johnny said that it's not bothering him as much anymore. And or Johnny said, well, it's not such a big deal, mom, that I get a little dirty. So I just really tried to keep the play elements going. And, you know, I let them sort of have those own self realizations, because you know, kids are so smart. They know I did something that made me nervous today.

Rachel: 30:54

Well, I think to that something that's a piece of advice that therapists listening can really take, like, you don't have to talk the entire time you're working with a session. And sometimes like, we have an episode on the power of pause, like just pausing and just not constantly saying everything. But also, I think there's a time and place where narrating things that you're doing, especially for those kids who are hesitant, is really helpful, because they can see, okay, that's happening, this is happening, and I know what's expected. But just being able to have that, that understanding as a therapist and use that therapeutic use of self to say, this is what's necessary, I can step back, I can let the child just really go for it. I can interact with them on that play base level, and we can really progress.

Danielle: 31:37

Yeah, and like you said, every child is so different. Like, there's a lot of kids that like to talk a lot and there's one kid like Danielle, stop talking. And so you just kind of know your your you get another kids you work with some of it. It's it's great. And some of it, you know, that particular child you asked me about, he doesn't like to talk that much. And so I and I kind of that's kind of something I'm aware of, because I can talk so I try to... I try to match the communication that the child's giving me. So if they're quiet and they're engaged, and they're not talking, you know, I don't want to give them all this auditory input. Just, you know, keep it easy.

Jessica: 32:19

I like how you said that, that you match their communication. I think that's a good, a good thing for therapists to keep in mind when they're working with these kiddos because they are all so different. Some children might need more verbal communication, and some children need less.

Rachel: 32:35

Can you tell us a little bit about your favorite activities to do in the mud?

Danielle: 32:40

Oh, man, I have so many because I love it so much. I have three. I say I have my favorite activities. And then I have favorite activities to do with the kids. And the children like I have my own. But the activities that I love to do with the children, or watch them do because again, I give them a lot of it's free. Well, you know, the my kitchen is not ot it's free play. And then so I back out a lot when I do my mud kitchen classes, because I really want to ensure it's free play. And it's not I'm not coming up with games and things for them, it's but what I love to watch the children do in my mud kitchen classes is take these big old mud balls. And I have this big metal wall and I usually make a big target on it. And they just take the mud balls and they smash it as hard as they can against the wall. And it was the most spectacular thing ever. Because who doesn't want to throw like a huge mud ball. Are you even allowed to do that. And then it makes us crazy noise because it's metal and the kids just freak out. It's just it's so fun. So I like to do that. And then sometimes I'll boil spaghetti and hide it in the mud and pretend they're worms and kids like pluck them out. That's always fun. And then we make mud faces and we use like natural materials to like create mud people. And you know of course your your your classic mud pies and muffins and cakes. You know, my favorite thing to do is like to squat in the mud because it just feels so relaxing like that deep input onto my hips. And I just like to dig and I just love my favorite thing is burying treasures for the kids because they're all treasure hunters. And they're always like looking for their little, like there's so many gems and fake diamonds in my mud kitchen. Everybody's always stumbling upon a treasure and like when you watch the kids like find them and like some of them think they're like real diamonds. Just like light up and there's putting them all in their pocket. I let them take it that's that's one of my fun things to do. I love it.

Jessica: 34:54

Super fun. It just it brings back memories of my son when he was little he's nine now. younger, that was one of his favorite things to do. And at the time, we were doing a lot of like renovating like the yard and stuff. So we had tons of dirt hills and rocks everywhere. And he one of his favorite things to do was to take some of his toys out there, and he would just go play in the dirt and the mud. For hours, it was his favorite thing.

Danielle: 35:21

It's so therapeutic on so many levels.

Rachel: 35:24

It's so simple. Like I feel I feel like in today's day and age, it's just, we're trying to overcomplicate everything, we're trying to do these super fancy treatment modalities and all these things, while they're great for certain situations. Let's take a step back and just connect with nature and just get outside where we were meant to be. And we'll see so much progress from that.

Danielle: 35:46

You know, it's so true. Like when I was talking about that story about the boy that went across the log, I had that same thought I thought, oh my gosh, this is so simple. Like, how did I miss this equation? Like one plus one. Like I was just, I was almost dumbfounded at why this was such a revelation to me. Like, this is so simple. I was just like one of those like movie moments where like, all the film comes together, and then you're just like, oh my gosh, like, why did it take me this long to figure this out? It's so simple.

Rachel: 36:23

Sure, selfishly, I do want to ask you more about the playgroups that you do. And like the mud kitchen groups can my two and a half year old come?

Danielle: 36:34

I have my age right now is starts at four. I did have three. It's mainly because you know, for potty training issues. And because my theme is really, and I know, these groups can go so many different ways. But it is like my theme is like let's get the adults out of the way. And sometimes when the kids are younger, you know that the parents are there and potty training. And so I thought you know what four is kind of that age that I think I could handle with not that many adults, and not that many parents and sort of step back. But you know what my play is great for starting at two, you know, it's just like, you just you know, you just need a little bit more attention. There are other reasons and because my group is so focused on standing back I started at four, but the my kitchen groups, they're magical. There's so many things going on in a mud kitchen. You know, children are learning. Again, like we said, this is just basic. Back in the day, it was just an assumption that children would be playing all day long. That was like a previous generation and we have lost that due to many different reasons and children just are not getting outside. The the idea of like risky play, I mean, that in our day, that was just play, that was just play. Now it's risky play to just bring attention to almost the factors of what we've missed, what we're missing. So, you know, a mud kitchen, to me, it's just like a kick back to how we like all grew up, and it's intentional, and you know, parents are busy, they're overwhelmed, there's so much going on. So to have a space where, you know, parents can bring their kids know that they're in a safe space, the kids are feeling safe. They're in an intentional environment where they get to work on all of these foundational skills that I just grew up with in my neighborhood without having to think about things is just the opportunity and more of the opportunities I want to be able to present and help families with. And it's like, you know, when you watch the kids in the mud kitchen, they're negotiating. They are, you know, having to deal with space. They are sharing tools. They are and although, you know, free play is, you know, the adult steps out, but within the kids world, they are creating their own rules and their own structures. And there's a lot of learning going on in that dynamic. Learning how to play with a child so, you know, they continue playing with you. We play kitchen and someone's the baker, somebody is this, you know, sprinkler maker where they're hammering the chalk and making the sprinklers, somebody's going to do the register, figuring out how to all work together. Um, you know, and the thing about the mud kitchen is there's no pressure to get anything right. There's no right or wrong. So the kids are relaxed. They could start and they can stop whenever they want. They can quit, they can jump over to the other side. There's no rules. But although they make their own rules within their worlds, and there's just so many foundational skills being built in these spaces, and these type of environments of free play for children, and you know, every kid needs this.

Jessica: 40:31

Well, and it's so important for these kids to be in that social group setting without the adults who I mean, we're all guilty of it, who interfere with disagreements that the children are having. That ultimately, those kiddos are probably going to find a solution to their disagreement if the adults could just step back and let them.

Danielle: 40:56

Yeah, and often it's like a solution that you wouldn't have thought of and it's often better.

Jessica: 41:02

It's so much better and then they feel empowered because they made a decision and they solved a problem. And they learn how to work together in better, more efficient ways. And it's something I had to learn how to do was just step back and let my child figure out a disagreement on the playground on his own instead of me stepping in and trying to solve it for him.

Danielle: 41:24

Yeah, it's very, it's very hard. I agree. It's really challenging. And, you know, I work with students and that's kind of one of the lessons that I tried to share before we started our mud kitchen is, you know, I know everyone's coming here to, you know, observe or learn, you know, for your OT program, but we are stepping back. We're going to like, what we're gonna learn to do is to step back and it's hard, you know, it's hard. It's kind of feels, I don't know, maybe uncomfortable or unfamiliar, I don't know.

Jessica: 41:58

Or even for us, as therapists maybe like, untherapeutic almost in a way because we're kind of trained to like step in and teach the child how to do things. We're not really trained to like, step back and let the child learn on their own.

Danielle: 42:12

That is so true. I feel like that's been a big lesson for me the past couple of years is really learning how that art to sort of navigate those situations.

Rachel: 42:24

So going along with that, what would you say is one of the biggest challenges that you deal with on a daily basis?

Danielle: 42:31

Um, probably insurance.

Rachel: 42:38

Not the answer we wanted.

Danielle: 42:43

Just, you know, creating your own business. It's the business side. For me, that's challenging. My love and passion is playing with the kids and the relationships with the families and being outside like that I got. The hard part, I feel is the business part. You know, it's hard for me to keep my kitchen clean sometimes and I'm like having to do all of these details and understanding how insurance work and every insurance is different and it's just a lot. It's a learning curve that has not stopped curving for me.

Jessica: 43:21

I thought of another question. Have you found that the kids you work with, have you found that they end up going outside more often when they're not with you? Like the families are reporting to you, after we've been doing your class or we do your sessions, my child wants to go outside more. They're not as interested in screen time or they're not as interested in other things. They'd rather be outside more.

Danielle: 43:48

I do. I do get a lot of those reports from parents. You know, he's out in the backyard with his sister making mud. He is out and he's going out with his I have one particular child that just, it was just so had such like, low confidence and his body awareness and coordination. He had a lot of challenges playing outside and now she's like, you know, he's getting out there with his brothers. He's going out in the woods. I could see his self assurance, his confidence, he's growing. And so yes, it's definitely translating. I hear from the families and I see it like I see it with my own eyeballs. So I know that their bodies are changing. I know that their coordination is improving. It's just like I see it. It's a you know, when I first started my business, I had so much, you know, whenever you're doing a big endeavor, you have challenges with confidence, like, what am I doing? What is this business? And after this year, I was like, you know, I see it, I see it. I see it. Like the child that I I had a child that was just like so fearful to walk out on the rocks with me. Every branch was like, and now, you know, I see him balancing all by and I would have to hold them I would have to, you know, hold his hand the whole way out. Now he's walking by himself. He is maneuvering his legs over logs, holding his trunk up straight, walking on his own. I mean, it's challenging to walk out on the river rocks. And so you can see the progress, I can see the progress, it's evident. So yeah, and, you know, the empirical data out there that is out there right now for the benefits of being outdoors is out there. So, um, you know, it's Yeah, I see it.

Jessica: 45:51

Yeah, the benefits of the natural light the fresh air getting grounded, but actually makes me good question. Do your kiddos wear shoes when they're out? Or do you have them go barefoot outdoors a lot?

Danielle: 46:03

You know, I'll allow them barefoot in the mud kitchen because that space is so intimate to me that I know what is in there. But because of the Boise River is, you know, I've seen glass I've seen cars. I've seen metal. I've seen a lot of stuff out there. So when I'm out. I'm out by the river shoes are on but during my mud kitchen, the kids can go barefoot in the mud kitchen.

Rachel: 46:31

Yeah, just that grounding is so beneficial.

Danielle: 46:34

Yeah, it feels so good. I'm out there barefoot. My kids are out there barefoot all the time, all the time. It really is. I'm sorry, would you say that? I said, I have a couple of kids that have been in my kitchen for a handful of sessions and there's just kids that are just my barefoot kids. The second they get there, they throw off their shoes, and they're just like in it. They just their bodies like craving that I can't even find their shoes at the end of the session. I've lost your shoes again!

Jessica: 47:05

So good. Are you accepting new clients? How can people work with you? I know you're the you're the sole practitioner, are you hiring?

Danielle: 47:18

I had a very clear intention when I started my practice that I really wanted to have a balance, of family

Jessica: 47:24

Good for you for setting those boundaries. balance, and really, you know, at four o'clock when my kids are out of school, I'm with my kids. So I'm really kind of keeping things like Mom and Pop because my intentions are really to have that, you know, mental health, Mom balance. So I'm just gonna keep it sort of, it's kind of just for now it's just for me. That's amazing.

Danielle: 47:53

Yeah, it's really important to me. There was there were so many motivating factors about creating Boise Outdoor Tea, and one of them was just that mom balance. You know, I feel like we went through so much with the pandemic, everybody. We learned a lot of lessons are in regards to mental health, stress, personal health, mom's just doing so much, that I was like, you know, I'm going to set this up for my family's well being, for my well being, for my child's well being, and I'm going to give as much as I can and service families as much as I can. And right now, that's where I'm at.

Rachel: 48:33

But you share a lot of great information on Instagram.

Danielle: 48:38

You know, I am so in love with Outdoor OT and Mud Kitchen Kids. It's just like, it's just like always like bubbling. And I want to share this and I want to get families excited about this. And I want to get you know, again, these are basic things that how a lot of I grew up like this, you know, and it can be simple. We can all have these simple tweaks and changes and start new rhythms and routines. They don't have to be big, small steps, and so part of my Instagram is just really showing how you can do it. But a lot of it is why? Most of those that my Instagram posts are the why behind what I'm doing and I feel like a big part of this outdoor you know, free play for schools OT is to is when you can when parents know, teachers know. When people are educated on the benefits. It's just like when you know, how can you not provide these this for children. It's just like gets any on you're like, that's all I could see. So I kind of just want to share the whys behind it, to educate people on how important this is, and how can we implement this in more early educational programs. How can you find ways to implement this with your family, with your children? And just trying to, you know, educate the whys on what I do?

Jessica: 50:12

And for therapists to be able to get more creative and figure out how they can get their clients outside more.

Danielle: 50:20

Yeah. And you don't need to be a nature based OT to get your clients outside. Like I said, when I was a school based OTs, like I was hitting the playgrounds a lot. You know, you can if you're, you know, you're going to people's homes, use their backyards, use their front yars, a park. Even if you have a clinic, I don't know, does your clinic have a backyard Park? Like, you know, you don't have to be a nature based OT to get out and work in nature.

Jessica: 50:48

When I was even thinking in the clinic, often times, you might have the flexibility to meet your clients at the park versus at the clinic every session. Maybe you have that flexibility?

Danielle: 51:01

Yeah, sure.

Rachel: 51:04

Well, Daniel, if there's one piece of advice you could leave our listeners with, what would that be?

Danielle: 51:10

Um, you know, I'm the type of person who gets overwhelmed easily. So my advice for anything in life is always starting small, small, small, small. You don't have to be planning these big ol hiking trips or skiing adventures, just start thinking of how you can implement outdoor engagement more in your family's life. And it can be something as you know, what once a week, we're going to eat outsid or even like we're going to eat on our balcony. We're gonna have, we're gonna eat on our front stoop, we're gonna eat out our steps, or, you know, we have some neighbors once every Friday night or Saturday night, let's meet at a veteran's Park, I'll bring pizza and we'll all meet there. You know, let's walk on Wednesdays is walking Wednesdays to school. If school is too far, let's we're gonna park here, and we're gonna walk the rest of the way there. You know, I'm going to pop a tent out the front yard for the kids. Just adding a few things here and there to get children outside because the thing is, once kids get outside, they want to be out there for a long time. Being outside equals more movement. Kids just move more outside. They're running, they're jumping, they're hopping, they're skipping, they're yelling, they're doing everything. The hardest part is the transition. So we have to remember that as parents, okay, the hardest part is always the transition. But when we can make that transition, and we get the kids outside, you see it. You see the magic unfold. I mean, they are just moving more. You know, it's like that, that pyramid of learning that, you know, the top, the very top is, you know higher learning, the bottom is all of our foundational senses. And so because kids are not getting outside, like they used to, and they're spending so much time indoors, the that ground level is not being built as secure as it should be. And there's gaps in those foundations. And that year, zero to seven is when children are like sensory processing machines and that is the time where we need to get them outside moving their body in big waves and experimenting with their bodies and seeing what their bodies can do and touching many different you know, tactile experiences, rolling on the ground. You know, all the activities that children do. So they can build this foundation strong, because once they start getting older, and they start getting into those higher level skills, and they have gaps on the bottom, those gaps are going to show up in behavioral ways and motor planning ways. So it's so vital that children spend those early years really engaged outdoors and using their bodies in like ways that make us gasp. I think Andrea Handscomb had said that kids should be using their bodies that make make parents gasp. So they have that foundation and again, that's part of the education. Like we need to show and teach people how important it is to build this foundation. It's like a brick and a house, you know, the house can't hold if the foundation is loose and has gaps in it. And so to do the first I think the best way to do that is outdoors.

Jessica: 54:52

And I think too, it's important to remember that for those children who are going to struggle with that transition to go outside because it's a change in their routine, to help remind parents that it's important for the parents to go with them and for the parents to engage outdoors with their child and do these activities with them. Because not only is it more motivating for the child, but then the parents get the added benefit of being outside as well.

Danielle: 55:20

So glad you said that I forgot to mention that it that's a huge component, a big component and you know, your kids always want you to be involved and to be there. It is like we have to be that change we want to see. And like you said, it's it's good for our mental health. I mean, I kind of experienced burnout many times in OT, and being outside has been so just as just eliminated that. It's so healthy for me as a practitioner, being able to give it my all and see the students and interact with all the families and just keep it moving because it's grounding and we have to remind ourselves it's for for us too.

Rachel: 56:01

Ah, Danielle, we can probably chat for hours and hours, I love this topic. You know, my kiddos are in nature school. Like I am so passionate about it, I love it. Love what you do, I love the clients that you're helping, and thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us.

Danielle: 56:18

Thank you for having me. It was really fun chatting with you girls, and we're local. So let's stay in touch.

Rachel: 56:26

Yes, I know I'm gonna send Trip your way and you're mud kitchen. Not in a group and I'll go over on like a Wednesday.

Danielle: 56:34

Show up with this little shovel and bucket.

Rachel: 56:38

Or I'm just gonna have to make one myself in my

Danielle: 56:40

That's one thing I wanted to add to, like, backyard. everybody can make a mud kitchen in their in their backyard. And you know what you can be really creative with your mud kitchens. I teach, you know, I'm actually creating Teaching Modules right now for early educators on how to implement mud kitchens in their early educational programs. And so you know, one of the things that I'm teaching teachers is a mud kitchen can look so many different ways. It doesn't have to be, you know, it can be some primitive to something really elaborate. But, you know, it could be like a wheelbarrow filled with mud with like a plank on top as a little table. You can get a big tire, tractor tire fill that with mud. Um, you can get a big piece of wood with like maybe two cinder blocks on the side and have a mud bar. Like mud play can look so many different ways. It can look as simple as a, there was a recent rainfall and there's a mud puddle in the field. Get to the field, grab your buckets and pails, and it is just as exhilarating to the child's. So a mud kitchen could be portable. It can be a puddle in a newly fallen you know field. It could you know have a basic table. It could be so many things, the children, their imagination just takes over. I always say it doesn't need to be Pinterest worthy, it needs to be interest worthy. And they're in, there in. So it could be whatever you imagine it to be.

Rachel: 58:16

And oftentimes simple is easier for these kiddos to get started with.

Danielle: 58:22

Exactly and you know what the kids ended up sort of building and creating it on their own. Especially when you can incorporate like pieces of furniture that are maybe they pick out at a thrift store, or that you're no longer using and they sort of kind of created. You say oh, you go to a thrift store pick out a table for the mud kitchen you have them part of the creational process. And you know, you don't need a stove, you use a little box and you put it under an open table or I use like a little dish rack. Everyone makes their little cupcakes and we put the dish rack underneath there. You don't I mean, a kitchen a little sink is great, you know, puts like the kitchen in my kitchen. But you don't even need that you can get a big plastic bin, fill it with water, and that's the sink. Okay and the kids, that's the sink. You know, it can be so primitive and so engaging.

Rachel: 59:14

Oh, that's so helpful. Oh, I love it. Thank you. Thank you so much. This was so fun. It really was fun.

Danielle: 59:20

Thank you for letting me get on here and share all these fun things with parents in our community. And it was great talking with you ladies.

Jessica: 59:29

That was a great conversation. Love all the different things that she has to offer the world and this area specifically for our community.

Rachel: 59:41

I love it. I'm like, let me get my kids in there. I want to send them to the mud kitchen. I want to send them to the camps like let's go. I love it. I

Jessica: 59:49

Need to get all of our kids outdoors more often. You can take away right there.

Rachel: 59:54

If you love this episode, give us a shout out either on Instagram, take a screenshot and tag us so we know that you're listening and you loved it. Please leave us a review on iTunes or Spotify. Those reviews are so great to read and you know, share this episode with either a fellow therapist or a fellow parent. Anyone you think can benefit. Spread the word, that is our mission here. So let's do it.

Jessica: 1:00:17

Make sure you follow Danielle she is on Instagram at Boise Outdoor OT. Give her a follow, give her a shout out. Let her know that you heard her on the podcast and you love her stuff. And with that, we will talk to you next time.

Rachel: 1:00:33

Okay, bye. Thank you so much for listening to All Things Sensory by Harkla.

Jessica: 1:00:37

If you want more information on anything mentioned in the show head over to harkla.co/podcast to get the show notes.

Rachel: 1:00:45

If you have any follow up questions, the best place to ask those is in the comments, on the show notes ,or message us on our Instagram account which is at Harkla_family or at All Things Sensory Podcast. If you just search Harkla, you'll find

Jessica: 1:01:01

Like we mentioned before our podcast listeners get us there. 10% off their first order at Harkla.co. Whether it's for one of our digital courses or one of our sensory swings, the discount code 'sensory', will get you 10% off, that's s e n s o r y.

Rachel: 1:01:20

Head to harkla.co/sensory to use that discount code right now.

Jessica: 1:01:25

We are so excited to work together to help create competent kids all over the world. While we make every effort to share correct information, we're still learning.

Rachel: 1:01:35

We will double check all of our facts but realize that medicine is a constantly changing science and art.

Jessica: 1:01:40

One doctor or therapist may have a different way of doing things from another.

Rachel: 1:01:44

We are simply presenting our views and opinions on how to address common sensory challenges health related difficulties, and what we have found to be beneficial that will be as evidence based as possible.

Jessica: 1:01:56

By listening to this podcast, you agree not to use this podcast as medical advice to treat any medical condition in either yourself or your child.

Rachel: 1:02:04

Consult your child's pediatrician or therapist for any medical issues that he or she may be having.

Jessica: 1:02:10

This entire disclaimer also applies to any guests or contributors to the podcast.

Rachel: 1:02:15

Thanks so much for listening