#281 - Why We Decided NOT to Get Our Masters in OT

Today we answer your questions!

First question: help for a 2.5 year old Down Syndrome child who drools constantly.

Second question: why did we decide not to get our masters in OT.

Third question: help for a 5 year old boy who displays a “humping” behavior.

Fourth question: help with potty training in an outpatient pediatric clinic.

We’d love to answer your questions on the podcast! Fill out this form -> https://harkla.typeform.com/to/ItWxQNP3

Looking for more in-depth help? Sign up for 2-on-1 Mentoring With Us!!

Brought To You By Harkla

This podcast is brought to you by Harkla.  Our mission at Harkla is to help those with special needs live happy and healthy lives. We accomplish this through high-quality sensory products, & child development courses.

Podcast listeners get 10% off their first order at Harkla with the discount code "sensory". Head to Harkla.co/sensory to start shopping now.

Links
All Things Sensory Podcast Instagram
Harkla YouTube Channel
Harkla Website - Shop Sensory Products!
Harkla Instagram
Ep. 159 - Tips for Oral Seekers
YouTube - 5 Strategies for Oral Seekers
ARK Therapeutic Z-Vibe
HoMedics Mini Massager
Free Social Story Template
Ep. 191 - Tips for Toilet Training
YouTube - Strategies for Toileting and Potty Training
Ep. 41 - All Things Poo
Ep. 216 - Activities for Interoception

Transcript

Rachel: 0:00

I just had to sit back and see like, where do I want to be in five years? What's my goal? And I had to come to the realization that I really did enjoy being a COTA.

Jessica: 0:11

So I remember to you had just started the sensory projects, and you were doing the weighted blankets and the weighted vests as a side business.

Rachel: 0:19

Yep.

Jessica: 0:19

And I remember talking to you specifically about that of like, do you want to grow that business or do you want to put that on hold except to go back to school?

Rachel: 0:28

Exactly and I realized I can't. I couldn't do it all and so I decided, let's not go into any more debt, and I decided not to go to school. And here and now I'm really happy that I ended up not going back to school. I'm Rachel

Jessica: 0:49

And I'm Jessica. And this is All Things Sensory by Harkla.

Rachel: 0:52

We are both certified occupational therapy assistants and together with Harkla, we are on a mission to empower parents, therapists and educators to help raise confident and strong children of all abilities.

Jessica: 1:04

On this podcast, we chat about all things sensory, diving into special needs, occupational therapy, parenting, self care, overall health and wellness, and so much more.

Rachel: 1:14

We are here to provide raw, honest and fun strategies, ideas and information for parents, therapists and educators as well as other professionals to implement into daily life.

Jessica: 1:25

Thank you so much for joining us.

Rachel: 1:31

Hello, everyone. Welcome back to all things sensory. Welcome, if this is your first time. Hey, if you're like an old friend, and this is just you catching up with us, we're happy you're here.

Jessica: 1:43

Today, we're gonna answer some listener questions. We have a link in the show notes where you can fill out a form that if you have a question that you want us to answer on the podcast, you can fill out that form, and we will answer it. Today we're going to answer four questions in one episode.

Rachel: 2:03

Yeah, we hadn't checked the link in a while. And as we were getting ready to record episodes today, we had a list of episodes that we were planning on recording. And Jess was like, Oh, my gosh, there's so many questions. I think we just need to throw all of these into one episode. So if you have recently asked a question, stay tuned. It's probably in this episode and there's good ones in here.

Jessica: 2:30

Yeah.

Rachel: 2:30

I'm excited.

Jessica: 2:31

This will be good. Let's do it.

Rachel: 2:33

Okay.

Jessica: 2:34

The first question is, this person needs help with a child who is two and a half years old, Down syndrome, and the child is drooling and mouthing objects.

Rachel: 2:47

So the first thing to really think about and to identify is the why. Why is the child mouthing these objects? Why is the child drooling? Do they have low muscle tone? Are they seeking oral input? Do they need something in their mouth in order to help increase their oral awareness? So without knowing the child, we can't say exactly what that is. We're going to have you do that detective work. But what we can offer are some suggestions for oral motor activities and kind of improving some of that muscle tone in the mouth.

Jessica: 3:28

Yeah, because this child has Down syndrome, there's a high probability of low muscle tone to the oral structures and so we want to stimulate this child's oral structures throughout the day to activate those muscles, and to provide some of that sensory input that they are seeking out. One of our favorite tools is the Z vibe from ARK therapeutic and this is a great tool to use before mealtimes to provide vibration to the cheeks, the lips, the tongue, the inside of the mouth, and it's a great preparatory activity before feeding to get the mouth ready to eat. But it also is great because it provides that stimulation to increase overall awareness of the world structures.

Rachel: 4:21

Yes, we do love vibration. You can even grab like one of those HoMedics vibrating balls and incorporate that into play. So that way they can hold it they can put it on their face or on their body wherever they feel like they need it and we can incorporate that as well. I also love dry brushing, using like tactile stimulation on the face. Using a washcloth a dry washcloth or a wet washcloth in the bath. Using a cotton glove, using that on your hand, tapping around the mouth, on the cheeks that tapping can be really helpful to wake things up. Really the goal here is to wake up the mouth muscles, wake up the brain, say, Hey, this is where my mouth is. This is where my cheeks are. This is where my tongue is. Let me increase the awareness so that way I can have a more appropriate tongue position, lip closure, things like that.

Jessica: 5:16

We do have a podcast episode on oral sensory seeking, and we provide some fun oral motor activities in that podcast episode. We also have a YouTube video with ideas for oral motor activities, you will just need to modify the activities as needed for the child's age and their level. But one thing you can do with drooling is all of the stimulation that we already talked about to really increase the child's awareness of their mouth, and how to control their saliva. But also doing different blowing activities is a great way to increase their ability to control their saliva. Because this child's two and a half years old, start by laying on the floor and blowing a pom pom across the floor to a target. Once the child can do this while controlling their saliva, then maybe move to using a straw and blowing through the straw to move the pom pom. But those blowing activities promote that lip closure that tongue position and help with that drooling.

Rachel: 6:23

Another fun one we love is bubble mountains. So grabbing a bucket of water, putting some dish soap in it, and then grabbing a straw and blowing bubbles into it. And oftentimes people will say my child just drinks the water. And of course, because you give them a straw, they think they need to drink the water. That's normal. That's okay. So that's why we recommend starting with blowing the cotton ball on the floor. So that way you know that they know how to blow the air instead of just suck the drink up and it just takes a lot of practice. Generally, I say generally, once they drink the water one time, they likely won't do it again. But that's not always the case. But. Y

Jessica: 7:02

You can also practice teaching them how to blow into the straw. So instead of having them put their mouth on the straw, and they automatically suck because they think they're supposed to suck and drink with the straw. Hold the straw close to their mouth, but not on their mouth and practice blowing and teach them how to blow into the straw. It's a good way to start.

Rachel: 7:24

And then once they have their lip closure around the straw, you're holding the straw for them and then you have the straw out of the water and you can have them you can see that they're actually blowing, and you'll see the water move. And then when you're ready, when everyone's ready, then stick it in the water and praise them when they do blow the bubbles. And that way they have that visual feedback of the bulk of the volcano. The mountain blowing getting bigger. You're doing this as well. Maybe you have a peer doing this with them. So yeah, lots of visual feedback. So yeah, blowing, Bubbles blowing, tactile tapping, vibration, we really want to be stimulating. What does Karen Pryor say? She says numb and dumb, numb and dumb-it.

Jessica: 8:08

Funny. So yeah, the other thing I was thinking was full body heavy work. Me too. Oftentimes, when a child is seeking oral motor input, we can incorporate the oral motor activities, but we also want to incorporate full body heavy work activities. So things like animal walks, pushing and pulling heavy items like a weighted basket. Anything that provides that heavy work in that deep pressure to the entire body is great proprioceptive input that can help as well.

Rachel: 8:39

Yep. Okay, I think that covered it. Hopefully that was helpful. The next question is geared towards Jessica and I. The question is, how can both of you did not do your masters in OT? And who is the OT that does your evaluations and assessments and what is that relationship like?

Jessica: 9:00

You go first.

Rachel: 9:01

Okay, so why did I not do my master's in OT? I started my OT a program. So Jess and I are both occupational therapy assistants or COTAs. That's the abbreviation. So I got my degree in OTA in 2014. So I was 22. I went to undergrad for two years before I switched to this associate's program, which was definitely not like the normal pathway to do school. But I was like, You know what, this is what I want to do, I'm gonna get started and I had already been aware of these things called Bridge Programs. That takes your associate's degree bridges it to a master's in OT without going back and getting your bachelor's degree. So that's the like, in my head, I was like, okay, that's what I'm going to do. Perfect. I just want to get started. So, I did it. I graduated, loved it, started working, loved it, and then 2016 or 17, to like two or three years after graduating, I started looking into the bridge programs. And it was around the same time that I had started the sensory project. And I went to Nashville, and I did my interview with a bridge program called Belmont. I ended up getting in, but it would have been traveling every month to Nashville, I believe it was every once a month, something like that it was a lot of traveling and it was really expensive. And so I got in, and then I realized, oh, shoot, I don't know if this is what I want to do. And I just had to sit back and see like, where do I want to be in five years? What's my goal? And I had to come to the realization that I really did enjoy being a COTA.

Jessica: 10:51

So I remember too, you had just started the sensory project, and you were doing the weighted blankets and the weighted vests, as a side business.

Rachel: 10:59

Yep.

Jessica: 10:59

And I remember talking to you specifically about that of like, do you want to grow that business or do you want to put that on hold except to go back to school?

Rachel: 11:07

Exactly. And I realized I can't. I couldn't do it all and so I decided, let's not go into any more debt, and I decided not to go to school. And here and now, it's I'm really happy that I ended up not going back to school. So yeah, I have days or I had days where I was like, oh, yeah, it'd be really fun. I think it would be great to be an OT and to have that additional education. But also, I really love what I do, being a COTA. I feel like I have a lot of the same skills just from all of the continued education that I've done. But I just didn't really want to sit down and do all the paperwork. The paperwork just wasn't for me and that's okay. It's not for everyone. So that's my story. How about you, Jess?

Jessica: 11:55

Well, like Rachel said, we went to school together got our degrees together. I never had the desire to do a bridge program. Once I got my degree, my associate's degree, I was like, yep, that's great. Done. That's, that's as far as I want to go for right now and I still have that feeling. One is the money again, I don't want to go into that much debt either. But also, I feel like I'm in such a great place with the degree I do have and I'm able to do so many things that I want to do without having to go back to school. So mine was just I'm very content with my COTA degree and for me, so I'm in the clinic two days a week. Right now I work part time in an outpatient pediatric clinic, and the OT that does my evals and assessments is the owner of the clinic. She's a friend of mine. I actually Rachel and I both worked with her. She was a student when we were working, and she came in, I think, for her last fieldwork, she come in for her last fieldwork. And then she joined our team. So we've known her from the beginning of her ot career. And she opened her own clinic last year. And I joined her team early this year. And so she does all the evals and assessments. She signs off on my notes. I feel very fortunate to have a lot of autonomy with what I do, because we know each other as therapists, as professionals, so I'm able to, you know, I'm not micromanaged. I have, like I said a lot of autonomy, which I think is really great. But I also have worked really hard for that. I do all my continuing ed, I do the podcasts and YouTube, which always makes me learn more. So our relationship is really good. I will say I've had one negative experience, one negative relationship with an OT, in the past, who she felt that she, I guess, was better than me because she had a higher degree. Although she had significantly less experience in the field and so that relationship never was great, because you just got that vibe from her that she was better.

Rachel: 14:00

Yeah.

Jessica: 14:00

Even though she couldn't prove it. So that's really the only negative experience I've ever had as a COTA working with an OT. Other than that, it's always been really great.

Rachel: 14:09

Another experience I'll share. So back in 2000, late Oh, so funny that you said that. Because I said that for two 2018, I left the clinic that I was at, and then I had the opportunity to to help start an OT program in this rural area. I don't know if you guys remember. So early 2019. That's when we were working in the church and we'd wheel all of our equipment in and we'd bring it in we treat these kiddos that we're already doing speech therapy with a speech therapy company. We will do OT and so with that opportunity, I had reached out to a friend of mine who I knew was an OT, who had left her OT job, and I said hey, do you want to work together? Do you want to be the supervisor? I'll do all the treatment and so we went into this speech therapy clinic and started the OT side of it. And that was really fun. I really enjoyed that. I had a great relationship with the OT. We worked out this cool way of doing it worked. She didn't even treat, she just did the supervision. She just did the evals and the paperwork and it years. Yeah.

Jessica: 15:12

When we joined Harkla and. was a really efficient flow that we had figured out. And so in early 2020, we had moved into a clinic that they had built. And the team had grown. And she was still the supervising OT, and it was just like, so collaborative, and fun. And that I had Trip and I haven't been back to treat kids since. And I miss it. I really do I miss it. But I'm also very excited to be able to

Rachel: 15:40

We burnt out though. do what I do be home with the kiddos, have that flexibility to

Jessica: 15:41

And I was very burned out.

Rachel: 15:45

Yes.

Jessica: 15:45

And I stopped treatment for two years. And I kept saying like Jessica mentioned, we've worked really hard, we've hustled a lot to be able to get to this point in our career. I I kept telling everyone that I would talk to I said, I'm never don't know, down the road, if I'll go back to the traditional setting of OT or if maybe, I don't know. gonna go back to the traditional OT model, where insurance dictates everything, and yet here I am doing.

Rachel: 16:23

Here we are, that's okay.

Jessica: 16:24

I have the flexibility to work the hours that I want and to keep myself from burning out because I think that is such an issue in our field is burnout. And what I've seen since being back in the clinic, is there is a large number of young children in need of services, who can't get services because the clinics are so full and insurance dictates so much. And so it's just it's been very interesting.

Rachel: 16:55

Yeah. So we'll see what comes in the next few years. How the chips will fall, because they're going to fall where they may. So yeah, I like that question. I liked divulging all of that.

Jessica: 17:07

It is kind of fun when people ask us the personal questions.

Rachel: 17:10

I know. I just like I love to hear that stuff from other people and their journeys and so I just hope people like hearing that from us too. Because I love that connection and like really diving into like, Okay, back to OT.

Jessica: 17:24

Yeah, next question that we got. This is a little bit of a longer question. Five Year Old Boy, autism diagnosis. Main difficulty is that we he will often display a humping behavior, sometimes dropping to the floor, sometimes against objects. It doesn't seem to be any pattern as to when or why. Although there is an increase in when it happens in a few days before he becomes unwell. They've already tried increasing intensity of sensory input in all areas, deep pressure, tactile probe, and vestibular regularly throughout the days. I'm wondering, is there anything in particular, you guys would suggest? Thanks so much.

Rachel: 18:04

I used to work with a kiddo who was older, maybe like 12, Down syndrome, autism, and this was a big issue that we had to work through. And it sounds like they've done a lot of the sensory strategies. The tactile, the probe, the vestibular, that's always my go to like swinging really high, spinning. At five years old, like obstacle courses. So that's always my go to and then I would suggest, like compression underwear. See if there's like a different type of underwear that provides a little bit more input.

Jessica: 18:42

Or like a compression, wrap around his waist.

Rachel: 18:46

Yep, or a compression tank top that goes down over his hips.

Jessica: 18:51

Maybe even a weighted vest.

Rachel: 18:53

Vibration is another input that, it can go either way, we want to make sure that we're not misusing that in an expected situation. But maybe you as a therapist can stimulate the arms and legs and the back and that can give a lot of the input. Because I mean, really, if we think back to biology here, it's normal. It's a normal thing for kids to do and to learn about that and what feels good and what doesn't. But the challenge here is the lack of social awareness or communication skills. So what a neurotypical kiddo would learn is that, oh, this is nice, but it's really not expected to do this in public or in OT and they would kind of start to understand that. But someone with an autism diagnosis, maybe that's the disconnect. There's they're not recognizing, okay, well, this isn't a place that we could do it. So

Jessica: 20:00

Maybe creating a social story.

Rachel: 20:01

That was mine. You took the words right out of my mouth.

Jessica: 20:03

Yeah, I saw where you were going with it.

Rachel: 20:06

I lead you to it.

Jessica: 20:07

Yeah, social story about when it's expected to do it. Maybe he has a cozy corner sensory corner where he can go, and or maybe in his room somewhere and making sure he's not using it as an avoidance thing or doing it all day. But maybe he could it's that time alone when he needs that input. But you can also provide him with some of the other strategies as well. But yeah, social story of like, it's unexpected to do this movement with your body in these situations. So if you feel the need to do that, here are three things you can do instead, which one do you want to choose? You can take a break, you can do this or this, and have replacements that provide similar types of input because it is he's like seeking something. But also part of this question was that they've seen an increase in it happening before he becomes unwell. So it's almost like a sign of him, like telling that my body doesn't feel good, something's happening, I'm about to get sick, my body is trying to fight off something. So that's, that kind of changes that a little bit of like, okay, maybe he's getting sick, we want to boost his immune system and provide him with more deep pressure. Something like that.

Rachel: 21:26

Yeah, I would say using visuals would be really helpful, providing maybe just like a picture card, of what he can do differently. What he can do instead. Maybe it's him, maybe he's stimming and maybe this is his way of stimming. And so that's where we have to be really careful of like, we don't want to take away something that's regulating for him. But also, we want to make sure that it is he is working towards being socially appropriate, because you can make people feel a little unexpected when a child is doing this in public. Right? So there's a really challenging balance that we need to identify.

Jessica: 22:03

Yeah.

Rachel: 22:04

Figure out. I think just a lot of education, a lot of repetition, a lot of visuals, a lot of consistency.

Jessica: 22:15

Yeah. All right, one more question.

Rachel: 22:19

Okay. I am an OT at an outpatient pediatric clinic. What up, Shout out! Seeing an increase in parents requesting potty training help. I don't even know where to begin truly more specifically two to four year olds with autism diagnosis. What are some suggestions I can tell parents for carryover and consistency and what are things I would do as a therapist seeing them once a week for 60 minutes? I'm aware of potty watches and schedules. Where do I begin to figure out if it's interoceptive issues or if they're not ready or not understanding issues? Great question. I actually just took a continuing education course on potty training. Potty training children who are neurodivergent and it covers two different ways of potty training. The rapid way, and then the like longer way. And that course, I would highly recommend. We'll link it in the show notes, if you want to check it out. I will say I was in your shoes as well, before I actually had my own kids and went through the process myself. I was like, I don't know, like this isn't my area of expertise. So it helps having my own kid now.

Jessica: 23:36

Oh, it changes things, right?

Rachel: 23:37

Oh yeah.

Jessica: 23:38

We also have some podcast episodes on toilet training. We interviewed Jessica from rooted in routine and her Instagram is really great. She has a lot of tips for toileting on there. We also have a YouTube video. So we will link all those in the show notes for more ideas. But I think incorporating some sensory diet activities is going to be really helpful specifically for interoception. We'll link more information about interoception in the show notes as well. We have an episode a couple of episodes on it. But we want to do more vestibular based activities to help with that internal awareness. We want to talk about how our bodies feel with different sensory activities to connect the emotions, how our body feels, and what these sensory diet activities feel like. So when the child is swinging and they are laughing, you can comment on it and say, You're laughing right now, is that does that mean you're happy? Do you feel happy or sad? The swing is making you laugh. So the swing is making you happy? And kind of go along those lines of explaining what the different body feelings are and the emotions and the activities that are connected with it. If possible, ask the child questions versus telling them how they feel just because I know that can get tricky sometimes. But we can connect like smiling typically means happy, but asking them, how do you feel happy or sad, silly or angry, and connect those together to really work on that interoception.

Rachel: 25:16

Yeah, I will say a couple of things. A couple of just go to strategies that I always recommend, and I use myself would be making sure that the child has foot support on the toilet. So whether that's like a stool underneath them, or like a really fancy potty seat, whether it's like a floor toilet, we want to make sure that they have that good postural control. Make sure that if you are using a reward, you are consistent with it and that course that I mentioned earlier, by Gwen Wild, that course talks a lot about the rewards and like how to appropriately use a rewards. Because she had mentioned training her own daughter who she was a challenging one to potty train that she said, Okay, if you go to the bathroom, on the toilet, we will go and get a cat.

Jessica: 26:09

Oh my gosh.

Rachel: 26:10

Because they were gonna get it and so they went and got a cat and then she didn't use toilet for six months.

Jessica: 26:16

Yeah, because it hadn't you can't keep getting cats

Rachel: 26:19

I know. So it was really funny. That's a great course. So every time. as an OT, I would recommend that course. And the other thing that I learned that I thought was so interesting, and this may or may not apply to every autistic child, but the true, like, age biologically for potty training is 18 to 24 months, which is crazy. Because they haven't hit that like no phase yet and so potty training toddler who says no after everything is extremely challenging, I made that mistake and it took us four months to potty train, which is fine. You know, we had no rush. But yeah.

Jessica: 26:59

I always liked the strategy of having like a bathroom box of toys or activities to do in the bathroom when the child is sitting on the toilet. So this is like a special box that only gets brought out when the child needs to go to the bathroom. It's very helpful if they're pooing, which we do have episodes on pooling and I think it's all things poo is the title of the episode. Yes, you're wondering. But it can be a good like incentive because sometimes going to the bathroom can be overwhelming or scary or boring.

Rachel: 27:31

From a sensory perspective.

Jessica: 27:33

So having that incentive to like, oh, yeah, if I go pee on the toilet, if I go poo on the toilet, I also get to read my special book, I get to blow the bubbles. I get to play with this fun fidget while I go to the bathroom. So that could always be an option as well.

Rachel: 27:53

Yes, potty training, it's difficult when parents almost expect you to help potty training when you see them once a week for 60 minutes. So I think having that conversation of what are the realistic expectations? Yes, I can help you. I can provide some strategies. I can provide some tips. But potty training happens throughout the day, not just the 60 minutes that we're working together. So setting those realistic expectations with the parents and caregivers I think is really important up front and just honing in on your area of expertise. Like we've mentioned, I think in a previous episode, if a child struggling with postural control, you're really making sure that you're working on swinging with them on an unstable surface or therapy ball work and you're focusing on all of those underlying skills that do target potty training, just in kind of like a roundabout way. You're addressing, like that underlying challenge. So there is definitely a lot that we can do. But you have to have those open conversations and and make sure that they're not like expecting you to potty train their child.

Jessica: 29:01

Yeah.

Rachel: 29:02

That would be tough.

Jessica: 29:03

That would be a lot. And I think just consistency, making sure that you are incorporating vestibular activities, emotional activities for that interception. Yeah, visuals are great and figure out the type of reward system that's most beneficial for the child and go from there.

Rachel: 29:23

Yeah. Okay. Well, this was fun. I love this.

Jessica: 29:27

I do like answering your your guys's questions. Listener questions are super fun because you tell us exactly what you need and what you want, and we're able to give that to you. If you enjoy this episode, let us know send us a message, screenshot a picture of you listening to this episode, and tag us on social media. We're all things sensory podcast, and what else?

Rachel: 29:49

That's it. We just appreciate you being here, hanging out with us every Wednesday, gosh, five years of podcasting. That's wild.

Jessica: 29:58

Yeah. What are we going to do once we hit six years.

Rachel: 30:00

I don't know.

Jessica: 30:01

That's crazy.

Rachel: 30:02

Party. Okay, anyways, we will chat with you all next week.

Jessica: 30:06

Okay, bye.

Rachel: 30:08

Thank you so much for listening to all things sensory

Jessica: 30:10

If you want more information on anything by Harkla. mentioned in the show, head over to Harkla.co/podcast to get the shownotes

Rachel: 30:19

If you have any follow up questions, the best place to ask those is in the comments on the show notes or message us on our Instagram account which is at Harkla_family or at all things sensory podcast. If you just search Harkla, you'll find us there.

Jessica: 30:35

Like we mentioned before our podcast listeners get 10% off their first order at Harkla. Whether it's for one of our digital courses or one of our sensory swings, the discount code sensory, will get you 10% off. That's s e n s o r y.

Rachel: 30:54

Head to Harkla.co/sensory to use that discount code right now.

Jessica: 30:59

We are so excited to work together to help create confident kids all over the world. While we make every effort to share correct information we're still learning.

Rachel: 31:08

We will double check all of our facts but realize that medicine is a constantly changing science and art.

Jessica: 31:14

One doctor or therapist may have a different way of doing things from another.

Rachel: 31:18

We are simply presenting our views and opinions on how to address common sensory challenges health related difficulties, and what we have found to be beneficial that will be as evidence based as possible.

Jessica: 31:29

By listening to this podcast you agree not to use this podcast as medical advice to treat any medical condition in either yourself or your child.

Rachel: 31:38

Consult your child's pediatrician or therapist for any medical issues that he or she may be having.

Jessica: 31:44

This entire disclaimer also applies to any guests or contributors to the podcasts.

Rachel: 31:49

Thanks so much for listening