We are so excited to introduce you to Jill Gockel, mom of 5, who left the corporate world at the end of 2016 to stay at home with her kids. In addition to raising her 5 kids, she also invests in real estate, has an online business, & is a continual learner.
Our conversation with Jill centers around primitive reflexes. She explains how she first learned about primitive reflexes and the results she and her family have seen since going through our digital course.
Learn more about our primitive reflex digital course: https://harkla.co/products/primitive-reflexes-course
We’d love to answer your questions on the podcast! Fill out this form -> https://harkla.typeform.com/to/ItWxQNP3
Brought To You By Harkla
This podcast is brought to you by Harkla. Our mission at Harkla is to help those with special needs live happy and healthy lives. We accomplish this through high-quality sensory products, & child development courses.
Podcast listeners get 10% off their first order at Harkla with the discount code "sensory". Head to Harkla.co/sensory to start shopping now.
Links
All Things Sensory Podcast Instagram
Harkla Website
Harkla YouTube
Harkla Instagram
The Symphony of Reflexes
We are so excited to introduce you to Jill Gockel, mom of 5, who left the corporate world at the end of 2016 to stay at home with her kids. In addition to raising her 5 kids, she also invests in real estate, has an online business, & is a continual learner.
Our conversation with Jill centers around primitive reflexes. She explains how she first learned about primitive reflexes and the results she and her family have seen since going through our digital course.
Learn more about our primitive reflex digital course: https://harkla.co/products/primitive-reflexes-course
We’d love to answer your questions on the podcast! Fill out this form -> https://harkla.typeform.com/to/ItWxQNP3
Brought To You By Harkla
This podcast is brought to you by Harkla. Our mission at Harkla is to help those with special needs live happy and healthy lives. We accomplish this through high-quality sensory products, & child development courses.
Podcast listeners get 10% off their first order at Harkla with the discount code "sensory". Head to Harkla.co/sensory to start shopping now.
Links
All Things Sensory Podcast Instagram
Harkla Website
Harkla YouTube
Harkla Instagram
The Symphony of Reflexes
Even though the tongue tie revision of one of the twins. It helped all the kids kids, but the one that was having the trouble just even latching to a bottle, he was able to start latching. We were doing therapy for the fascia of the body and so things were improving. But as he got older, we were seeing more and more issues. There was issues with solid food. There was issues with sensory. There was issues with emotional outbursts. He couldn't regulate themselves and so we started the process of occupational therapy, food therapy, and we saw improvements. But nothing was a fix and then, this past year, I decided, Okay, it's time. I know enough about the primitive reflexes, we need to do something.
Rachel:I'm Rachel.
Jessica:And I'm Jessica. And this is All Things Sensory by Harkla.
Rachel:We're both certified occupational therapy assistants and together with Harkla, we are on a mission to empower parents, therapists and educators to help raise confident and strong children of all abilities.
Jessica:On this podcast, we chat about all things sensory, diving into special needs, occupational therapy, parenting, self care, overall health and wellness and so much more.
Rachel:We're here to provide raw, honest and fun strategies, ideas and information for parents, therapists and educators as well as other professionals to implement into daily life.
Jessica:Thank you so much for joining us.
Rachel:Hey there, welcome to All Things Sensory. Hello! We are thrilled that you have decided to join us for this episode, like beyond thrilled.
Jessica:This episode is so cool. We received a review.
Rachel:A while ago.
Jessica:For our primitive reflex digital course.
Rachel:Our new one.
Jessica:And we're going to read her review first. So let me read her review that she left for us.
Rachel:We did not ask for a review. This was her voluntary review that just like popped up one day.
Jessica:All right. It says"amazing results in all my kids. I am a mom of five and had four kids diagnosed with retrained primitive reflexes. One child in particular is more severe than the others, with issues ranging from fear of the bathroom, food aversion, and social problems. We started this program, which is our primitive reflex digital course, in the summer and had about two months of daily exercises under our belt before school started. We have seen a remarkable difference in all four kids, but the biggest change was with our child that had the most severe case. He is now eating 90% of his school meals without issue. He now plays with the other kids during recess and has even joined the youth soccer team. While there is still room for improvement, since we have not made it through the entire course, I am so relieved to see the remarkable transformation our children have already shown. As a side note, our other kids who weren't as severe, have had improvements in their social skills, self confidence, and emotional regulation.
Rachel:Holy cow! So many things and we just, after reading this, we're like we need to have Jill on the podcast and she needs to tell us how she got these results. Because if there's anything about primitive reflex integration that we know it is that it is so difficult to get kids to participate consistently. And Jill has five kids, and yet she was able to complete this over the summer and had such positive results.
Jessica:So, we got her on the podcast.
Rachel:She's here with us.
Jessica:We had a great conversation, and we're excited to share it with you. So let's jump in.
Rachel:Hi, Jill, how are you today?
Jill:Good. How are you guys doing?
Jessica:We're doing pretty good. We are going to start our interview with you with our five secret questions that you know nothing about.
Jill:Okay.
Jessica:And the first question is, what book are you currently reading?
Jill:Oh, okay. So, actually, I'm reading multiples. So the first book is it's a book on being Catholic and living out loud with our faith and then a second book, Sadie and the secret billionaire, I think is what it's called. So it's like clean romance, think of big Hallmark movie in book form. So.
Rachel:Oh my goodness, I love it.
Jill:We've got a couple others but those are the two favorites I'm on.
Rachel:Awesome. Okay, opposite of that. Would you rather play laser tag or mini golf?
Jill:Mini Golf for sure. Yeah.
Rachel:Yeah, I would have to too.
Jill:It's much less intense. I don't have to run.
Jessica:Are you a plant person?
Jill:Well, we'll put it this way. I'm really really good at killing plants. I like to buy them and then I say, Why did I do this? I know I don't like to take care of them. My husband, he's so great, and I did some landscaping this last spring and bought a whole bunch of plants and it looks really nice and then I told him, you know what? I forgot who I was. I'm just letting you know, I'm not going to water them, and so he took over and they looked great. They survived one season.
Rachel:Oh my gosh, I love that. I love the honesty. Just so you know, that's not who I am. I'm not gonna take care of them.
Jessica:Oh No.
Rachel:That's so great. I love it. Okay, next question. If you drink coffee, what is your coffee drink of choice?
Jill:I don't drink coffee. I don't like it. But I drink tea and so we have a really good specialty tea shop in the city and bora bora is my flavor of choice. Very fruity. It's nice.
Rachel:I swear, whenever I asked that question, whenever we have it on here, the person doesn't drink coffee and we're like, one of these days, it's gonna work out.
Jill:When I was a kid, I remember my dad telling me to go out to the vehicle and get his coffee cup. And so I did and when your kids are like, they're not looking and I'm going to be an adult for a moment. And I took a sip and it was cold, stale coffee. Ruined me. I can't do it.
Jessica:Wow. That's a pretty good reason. actually.
Rachel:That is so funny. Very nostalgic.
Jessica:Last question. What is your sensory quirk?
Jill:Oh, okay, so I really, no judgment. My hands. I'm really sensitive with my hands and the palms, especially and so like when I wash my hands, I only watch fingers. I never get the palm. I never do that. So I don't like them wet. I don't like anything on it.
Jessica:Yes.
Jill:That's my dirty little secret. Don't tell my husband.
Jessica:Well, now I'm curious, do you have a retained polmar grasp?
Rachel:Oh no!
Jessica:We need to have you test your poem or grasp reflex?
Jill:Yes, I know. Well, I was gonna talk about this later. But so I am a proponent of doing these exercises with your kids. Because you don't know what you pertain and it just will naturally help you. And I think it's great for the kids to see you as example.
Rachel:Exactly. Well, let's tell everyone why we're having you here today. You are a parent. You're an awesome parent and you reached out to us at Harkla and left us this amazing review on our primitive reflex course that you had purchased. You would taken and we were like, Oh my gosh, your story is amazing. We have to talk about it. We have to share your story. So just give us the background like tell us about your family, tell us like maybe what prompted you to go down the primitive reflex rabbit hole.
Jill:I have five kids and they range of ages from they my oldest just turned Okay, wait, 12 and then my youngest is a year old. And so kind of our journey is that when I had my twins, so twins were number three and four. We were trying to have three kids. We accidentally had three and four and then number five was about a surprise that when we had our twin, they really struggled with messy. So that was like the start at investigating things and so as I was looking for help. I discovered tongue tie. At that time, it was just starting to be talked about and our primary care physician said No, he doesn't have tongue tie. That's not it. I said, Well. Okay, great. Thank you. I appreciate that. Left his office and said I want a second opinion. And so found ENT who diagnosed him that yes, he does have it. And so we got that tongue tie clipped and the lip clip, and then he didn't improve. And so doing more research and discovered that okay, there are different levels of tongue tie. And so doing a clip is with scissors is only going to get part of the tongue tie, it is not going to get the deeper one. So we found another practitioner, who was a dentist, and he would do laser and he would get both of those. The full tongue tie would be revised. So we did that and then it didn't fix it. So now investigating. Okay, what is going on? And so then we found out about the fascia, and how in some kid, they're fascists so tight, that even though you do a structural relief with something like a tongue tie, it doesn't fix the problem and they need to have help with the fascia. Just the tissue of the body to release and then once that tension of inside the mouth releases, then all of a sudden, the tongue tied will be affected, but the revision will be affected. So, when we saw the third practitioner that was practicing that, they recommended before we do the revision, we go to a chiropractor that specializes in helping the body prepare for it. And so at that time, we had decided, all four of our kids had tongue ties, and we were going to get everybody the revision, including myself. And we were going to see the chiropractor for everybody. Well, that doctor had experience in primitive reflexes and so they did testing for it and they were able to discover that my two older kids who at the time were probably six and four,if I'm remembering, right. That they had several reflexes that were retained and so they were recommending doing some type of laser light therapy to help with that. And we chose not to pursue that, because that the chiropractor was two hours away and it wasn't, between time and cost, we were happy to do other therapies to prepare for the tongue tie revision. It just wasn't, it wasn't for us, and so they recommended that I read the book, The Intensity of Reflexes, and through that book, then I started learning about all of the different things that from the retain primitive reflexes can impact. And so over the years, then, if that was always in the back of my mind. Okay, there's something going on here. There's something wrong here and even though the tongue tie revision of one of the twins, it helped all the kids, but the one that was having the trouble just even latching to a bottle, he was able to start latching. We were doing therapy for the fascia of the body and so things were improving., but as he got older, we were seeing more and more issues. There was issues with solid food, there was issues with sensory, there was issues with emotional outbursts, he couldn't regulate themselves, and so we we saw the path of occupational therapy, food therapy, just lots of different things. And we saw improvements, but nothing was a fix. And then, this past year, I decided, Okay, it's time I know enough about the primitive reflexes, we need to do something. And so I was just trying to look for videos, online resources, something that I could do at home, to try to help with it. And so I came across your course, and then actually another course. And at the time, the other course helped with more of the reflexes then what your course did, at that time. Now you guys did a revision, and you offer even more, and we'll just long story short, I started with the other course and that was great, but it was really tedious. The kids hated doing the exercises, the 80s style of instructions. It was just good instruction, very tedious, and it wasn't for our family. And so then I found out that your course was getting a revision, you were adding new reflexes, and so I was like, Okay, we're gonna do it. And we jumped in, and it was a game changer. Absolute game changer for our family. For everybody in the family.
Rachel:Wow. I just was thinking you said you got your tongue tie released, right?
Jill:I did yes.
Rachel:How was that? First of all.
Jill:It was amazing. It was completely amazing. Because so like, I don't want to
Rachel:Really. tell you guys all these things, because I know you're gonna be like, Oh, primitive reflex there. I have scoliosis and I have like a lot of tension in my body and a lot of jaw issues, a lot of like a whole kind of thing, and when I did the unti revision, I felt an entire relief in my body from head to toe. And so many things have changed. I can stand up straighter now. Even like this is TMI, like our marriage, things that you do in your marriage felt completely different because your body. Yes, and functionally the way my tongue moves, the way I say word, everything is just so different. I used to have migraines a lot. Those went away. I've had sinus surgery twice, tried to have a third one and the doctor said,you know what, I think you're not your nasal cavity just really small. You've got petite nostril, that's why you can't breathe through your nose. Well, when I had the revision, a tongue tie revision, then all of a sudden, because my son could go through the roof of the mouth, I could breathe through my nose. So yeah, it's, there's so many things. It's, yeah, it's amazing. I highly recommend whatever age you are to have it done.
Jessica:Yeah. Well, and I liked that you brought up the marriage piece, because that's so relevant to so many people. That I'm so glad you brought it up to just maybe spark something in somebody's listening of like, oh, I never would have thought of that.
Rachel:I never thought, yeah.
Jessica:But how big of an impact something like that can make on your entire body. On every single piece of your life is just incredible.
Rachel:Yeah. Okay, well, that was awesome. I just had to ask you about it because you mentioned it. I'm like, I need to know like, Did it help? Because I it's something that I've thought about too, and it's on my to do list. But thank you for sharing that.
Jill:Don't wait, do it.
Rachel:So you bit the bullet, you got our course the updated version. Walk us through how it went doing the exercises with your kids. So how old are your twins now?
Jill:So now, they just had a birthday, just seven years old now. My older two are 10 and 12 and so we over the summer, we did the exercises to all four kids. So we would have like, okay, everybody, we're going to do exercise time and like when we did the testing, we made it like a challenge against each other and so that made it fun. They're very competitive and so I was able to test what I needed. They were interested because everybody wanted to see how they did and then I correlated the exercises back to the testing. The challenges that we did and so it was like, okay, you don't want to do it today, well, hey, do you want to beat your brother? If you did exercises, and he died, then you will be ready to beat him at it. Just different things to try to get them motivated. But honestly, your exercises that you have in this course, are so fun for the kids that they want to do it and so even if if they have a little bit of hesitancy, then I can pull out which one of the ones that they really enjoy. And I could say, oh, let's start with the bean wall. All right, let's see who can do the bean roll the fastest or the most you can get to the highest number. And so then they want to do it also. So over the summer, we had a really good routine that almost every single day of the week, we would get it that and by having that consistency that's where we saw the biggest changes. Now when school got into session, then we have not had that routine and then the progress has obviously been a lot slower. But just in that short, probably six weeks of uninterrupted routine of doing this, so all of the kids had improvements. I'll tell you, the older ones first and then also save the most severe case for last. But for example, my oldest when he would talk to us, he would not make eye contact hardly at all. He might look up briefly and then he would look down. and he had a lot of in his class like not much self confidence. So he was so really sad about maybe how the other kids were acting instead and then after we got that six to eight weeks of daily routine of doing these exercises, then I noticed he's looking in the eye, having full conversations, maintaining eye contact. One day I asked him after school, I was like, hey, Cody, you just seem like a lot more comfortable with yourself, a lot happier with yourself. What's going on with that? And he said, I just decided that I'm happy with myself and the other kids want to be friends with me, then we'll be friends. If they don't feel like hanging out, that's okay. But I'm just happy with myself and I thought to correlate it. That's because this was the one thing that changed and my daughter that is now 10, she deals with a lot of anxiety. So she'd be working on homework. She'd go to bed. She'd come up like an hour later, she'd be crying because she was so stressed about something with school, or something that happened with a kid or something from five years ago, when she was really young. It was really odd, this anxiety that kept popping up. She no longer has that. There's no anxiety anymore. My, one of the twins, he. So, if he was self conscious in front of an audience, he would want like a chicken wing. You know, kind of hunched over with a chicken wing out and then when he would get up on stage, like with a music performance, he was quiet the whole time, his arms would be crossed, he barely moved his mouth or anything, and we had the Christmas performance last month, and he was up there. And he was, I mean, he was the best one doing all of the actions and really moving his mouth and he didn't have that self consciousness. Self conscious, and was just out there having a great time. And so we really focused on the Moro reflex over the summer and so all of the things I just tie back to that. Okay, that's like these are all things that when I go through your checklist, there's so many of them that either are exactly on there or I can relate it to it. And then the twin that had the most severe things. So he had so much fear in his life that it was really impacting just the normal daily activity. So things like flushing the toilet, he wouldn't flush the toilet because he was, like two years prior when we moved into a different house, one of the toilets, somebody flushed the toilet, and the hose like popped off and water sprayed up. And so two years have gone by, and now all of a sudden he can't flush the toilet because he's so scared. Well, what if that happens again? Oh, you know, what's the handle of the toilet is not in the exact position it normally is, why is that? And things like germs. So he would wash his hands almost nonstop and he would wash it or an extended amount of time because he was scared of germs. He learned about germs and now all of a sudden, oh, I touch something and there's germs on me. It was to the point that he asked us one day if we would pray for him and his fears. Because he knew that this, he was six years old at that time, and he knew that this was such a big problem. And so now those fears are gone. He doesn't it doesn't impact him like he can act like a normal child with it. He had sound sensitivity, he would have that. So if anything was, we wouldn't think that I really loud, but to him, it was very loud and he would just walk around with it. And all of a sudden, he had to completely tune everything out because it just was too much stimulation for him and he doesn't have that issue anymore. Every once in a while, he's got a one year old sister, she might be a little loud, so every once in a while he might be the only one. But we're still working on this reflex too it's not fully integrated yet. Then, oh, social problems. So at school, he would come home from school and I'll ask questions about okay, how was your day? Who did you sit by at lunch? What do you do at recess? And his answer to recess was always well, I just played in the rocks and I just kind of walked around or I can't remember and well, who did you play with? And he would never play with anybody. It was to the point that I bribed it. I said, Okay, if you play with a child for five times, five days, I will go on by you a toy, and so he hit the five days. And well, first of all he did one day, and then he had a couple of days of just being a loner again. And then he said another day, okay, I did two days and I said no. It's five consecutive days. So you're still on day one. So okay. okay. So we start over, we are on day one. He gets his five days, and we go get him a toy. He's so excited. On day six, I'm like, hey how was a school? Who did you play with at recess? And he says, I still have to do that? So he still wasn't, he didn't have that, and so then we continued working on. So even though we didn't have the daily routine of doing those exercises, with him in particular, I would still try to at least a couple of times a week do the exercises with him. So now we're at the point of okay, he's playing soccer at recess with the other kids. He's playing Foursquare, outside with them. Even things that aren't sports related. Oh, okay. This is sports related. He joined a soccer club.
Rachel:No way.
Jill:So he's out there playing soccer every weekend now and is interested. Like he wants to do it, he's disappointed that they get cancelled or anything and so then outside of the sport, he's doing things like, he'll play Domino's. When all the other kids are playing Domino's, now he's coming in, he's joining in, and so it's just so good to see, like, socially he can interact. Physically, he can interact. I mean, it brings me to tears thinking about what his life would have been like, if we did not have your course. It, I don't even want to imagine it.
Rachel:It honestly brings me to tears, just hearing you explain in such detail, like life altering progress. Like these kids were in some sort of fight or flight, they were something was bothering them, something wasn't quite clicking how it needed to be, and we get them in those movements and those activities, and those patterns were retraining the brain. And all of a sudden, like, the confidence like that, to me is huge. Like.
Jessica:Well, too, I think a lot of it comes from doing hard things, right? Like, the exercises are hard. Especially when they first start the exercises and then you're as the parent, you're teaching them. This is hard, but we're going to keep doing it, and we're going to get better at it. And the moment that a kid can see that they did a hard thing. And they've improved, that itself builds confidence. So it's almost just like this snowball effect of doing these primitive reflex exercises, helps in a variety of ways.
Jill:I agree. And even the things that when they can't do something, not even exercise related, but just in everyday life. When they see other people doing it, and now all of a sudden, because they have the coordination of body or mind, now they can do it. Now they're no longer that outsider that just doesn't fit in. Because that's just not how their brain was wired at the time.
Rachel:Yeah, that's wild. I was thinking I just, you have been so successful with this and I feel like a barrier for a lot of parents, clinicians, just reflex integration in general, is consistency. Can you give any other parents, any strategies or tips or anything else to like to see the light at the end of the tunnel? Like when you started this, you're like, I don't know if it's actually going to work or not. But we're going to just give it our best shot and try it. So what do you think about that?
Jill:So I think there's two situations. So in one situation, you've got where your daily schedule is pretty set. It's pretty the same from day to day and I feel like in that situation, it's easier to set up the consistency because you can say, okay, at this time, every day, we're going to do this. And that's a lot easier to maintain. But how many kids or how many parents, who have more than just one kid, have that kind of routine and so what I found was the most helpful was to pair it up with another activity. As far as if you want to do this, then the exercises must be done. So if you want to turn on TV, okay, that's awesome. We'll watch a show at three o'clock, if the exercises are done. So for me, I tend to err on trying to empower my kids to you make a decision, and if you choose not to do something, the consequences on you. And it's just, I don't want to tell them what to do constantly. And okay, if you choose to not do the exercises, that's completely fine with me. But guess what, we don't get the turn TV on now and so the hobby that okay, at three o'clock, we're going to turn TV on, if you've done your exercises, that's kind of like the goal. But if they hit three o'clock, and they realize we didn't do it, all right, well, let's do it later. Do the exercise later and if you get it done before bedtime, you've been taught PD on, we're just not doing it as early as what we had agreed upon. So that's been helpful is something that they really want to do. They can't do it themselves. They do the exercises first. And I highly recommend that if you're a parent, you do the exercises with them because there's the quality time, first of all, that you've got with them. So whatever age your kids are, they still crave that quality time and a lot of times, as a parent, we're busy with the other tasks of the household and so having that one on one time doesn't always happen. And so if you're down there and you're doing the exercises with them now, all the sudden, this becomes about family time. You know, you can be I love the exercise where you take the ball, and you throw it to the kid and they're laying down a nap to kick it with their foot and that's a great one. What kid is not want to be kicking the ball in the house, right? And so you're in there, you're interacting with them, and then all of a sudden, it's fun. Like you're having fun, they're having fun, and that's been really a key factor, I think, and us getting those exercises done. Because if I say to the kids, okay, you guys are gonna pair up, two and two, find your partner, you got to do it while I do this task over here, it doesn't happen. They just don't get the exercises done. But if you're getting in there and doing it with all the sudden, it's so fun that my one year old comes over and she starts trying to do it, too. And seeing a one year old try to bean roll is just the funniest thing in the world.
Rachel:Yes.
Jessica:Oh, yes. I love that. And that's the advice that I try to give families all the time is do it with your child. It's build that connection. It's that one on one time and as an adult, it's probably going to benefit you in some ways as well.
Jill:Yeah, totally agree. One other really interesting thing, if you've got more than one kid that are doing the exercises, you can also something that I've done with my kids, that's the more severe case, I might start the exercises with him, we do it together, just the two of us,so that I can really monitor him before. Then we bring the other kids into the mix and so then I'll say, hey, guess what, how about you teach the other kids how to do it and then all of a sudden, that child has such ownership so that they're excited. They want to master it. So that they can be the experts and go and show the other kids and whatever you can do to help build them up and get them excited. It's so great.
Rachel:I love that. I am curious, though real quick. You said you've been doing the exercises? Did you notice any changes or anything in your own brain or body?
Jill:Yes, yes.
Rachel:Your palms. Obviously, we're still working on that.
Jill:think the most interesting thing, and I'm gonna preface Did you test your reflexes or did you just do what the kids this to say one thing to keep in mind, and I'm sure you guys, as practitioners know this and have witnessed it so many times, is that as a parent, sometimes you're a little bit too close to see the changes because the changes in the child happen gradually and so sometimes you won't see it and you need an outside person to comment that. Oh my gosh, I can't believe your child's doing that and all of a sudden, it's yeah, you're right. Like, Jackson was eating peanut butter, honey sandwiches and that's it and now he's eating almost everything on the school menu. Like this is awesome, your right. And so for myself, I didn't realize the gradual changes. And all of a sudden one day, so I used to deal with them social anxiety. And once I got into the situation, I was fine. But leading up to it, I would get kind of sick to my stomach, I would try to cancel at the last minute if at all possible. I would if I didn't cancel, I would show up either exactly on time or a few minutes after that were doing? way things had already started and I didn't have to be there I so I didn't do the actual tests on myself. But I went prior to starting. And so after I'd done the exercises, then all of a sudden I was like, oh gosh, you know what? cCompletely at ease going into these situations. I don't have tense shoulders. I don't feel sick to my stomach. I feel like it's no big deal. That person over there, I will just go say hi. That's okay. So yeah, it really, and I didn't notice it in the progress. It was just all of a sudden one day I thought, when I got home, what that's weird. I went and talked all over bunch of different people, and it didn't bother me at all. through the checklist and I could say, oh, yeah, this is an issue, this is an issue, this is an issue, and so that's when I decided okay, I'm gonna do a two for one here and I'm gonna do these exercises with my kids so that I can get some improvement. And so yeah, it was big changes.
Rachel:My mind is blown right now like it's so crazy because we know this works but to like
Jessica:Hear it.
Rachel:Someone, who was like put in the work and done it consistently, and like, seen it in like in front of your eyes basically, it just like it blows my mind. Like it like lights a fire under my bum. I'm like, It's possible, like it really is possible. But it's a commitment. It's exhausting. It takes work. It's not an overnight fix. It's not a quick fix. It's not till it's really retraining the brain getting the brain more organized, and props to you.
Jill:Well, and I think it's so neat to many things. I mean, I went in, to do the exercises with the kid thinking that it was going to help with checklist items, right? I didn't think it would help with socially, being able to go and talk to another adult and feel comfortable. Like not be in my own head during the conversation, like, Oh, my God, what am I gonna say next? I don't even know what questions to ask like, all of a sudden, a conversation happens easily. So I think that's like, that's my biggest takeaway of everything with this is that all the things that we think is normal, like social anxiety is normal, and not being able to have a full conversation with somebody that's just lacking communication skills. When it could literally just be a retained primitive reflex and when all of a sudden that's integrated, your life just flows. Being able to converse, just flows. Like Jackson, who was scared to flush the toilet, that he gets to go through therapy for psychological therapy and what's what's going on in your mind? No, it wasn't that. That wasn't a problem, it was a retained reflex. So I mean, even like, everybody who I hear their kids on, like medicine for ADD or ADHD, I'm like, You must do this course. Some people we know, who their kids are like, on the spectrum,I'm like, just like it says, like, there's so many things. I mean, even like, motion sickness and I want to go through and just look at the checklist and be like, Yeah, allergies is something on there and I mean, there's so much stuff on there. That's amazing. It is amazing.
Jessica:Oh, my gosh, I love hearing about it. I do think it was such a cool idea that you guys started it in the summer, when you had the time and the flexibility because you weren't in school, the kids weren't in school. I almost think that's like a hack of like, if you're going to start the primitive reflex course and implement it with your family, go through the course now, yourself as the adult, learn all the things, and then once school is out for your kids implement the exercises throughout the summer to get into that routine. before school starts again. Like I think that's a major hack.
Jill:Yeah, that's genius. Because as you were starting it, I was thinking, Okay, so the only thing is, I would hate for anybody to put it off til summer. But you're saying no, right now yourself to go through it. Do the exercises yourself and that's yes. I highly recommend. You have definitely hit the nail on the head.
Rachel:Yeah, yeah, I know. It's just like a light bulb in my head. I'm like, That's genius.
Jessica:Yeah.
Rachel:I did have a question. Were you doing them one or two times per day?
Jill:We were doing them just once a day. So two times, it'd be great. But I'm gonna be honest with five kids, we just could not make it happen and I think that's something for everybody to keep in mind is sloppy success beats perfect failure, every single time. And so don't not do it because you can't do it perfectly and to the exact recommendation. Like just do it and the only thing that might happen is it it might take longer. And that's totally fine.
Rachel:But it does sound like you guys. Were spending a good amount of time together as a family doing them. It wasn't like a just okay, here's 10 reps, and then we're done. It was like, let's all sit down. Let's get on the floor. Let's play. Let's engage. There's multiple things happening. You probably doing it for 20-30 minutes is my guess.
Jill:Oh, yes. Yes, definitely. It was I would say a 30 minute thing probably every single time.
Rachel:Yeah. So that's basically like doing it four times a day, if we are being honest.
Jill:Oh good, I feel better now.
Jessica:But just seeing the progress in doing it once a day throughout the summer. Now you guys are in school, how does that routine, I mean, we know it changed. It's not every day anymore. How are you guys implementing the exercises now that everyone except for the one year old is in school?
Jill:Well, I'll tell you and I'll be frank because that's what I roll. I am not happy with how I'm getting it implemented. So I would like to do it much more. Even if it's like the consistency of okay, if it's two times a week, instead of every day in the week. Like have the consistency as, alright, at least two times, that's what we're gonna do, and I have not even managed to be consistent with that. So we just fit it in when we can and we had Christmas break and so the kids, that was the most severe, he and I then got back into doing the routine, just he and I, because he needs it the most. All of them need it, like, it's like heart wrenching to not take all of them. But I just think I can manage one right now, with school in session and so his routine is a little bit more flexible than the older kids. They're in a lot more activities and then I think if I get back to the basics of, okay, you want to play video games, then this has to be done firs and I'm going to do it with you. So it's just, you got to keep those basics in mind. If you don't have those basics, then it's hard to be successful with it and I'll be the first one to say, with some experience, it's hard to be that to be consistent if you don't have the basics in place.
Rachel:I did have another question come up. So you motivate them with prefer things that they want to do? Do they ever feel like resentment towards like doing the exercises? Do they feel like it's a chore or like, once they get started doing them, they're like, Okay, that wasn't so bad?
Jill:So when we started with the other program that was not yours, it was a chore. They were fighting tooth and nail to do it and I just had to be very matter of fact, as I don't care that you don't want to do it, it's time to do it. We're gonna sit down, we're going to do it. If you hurry up and do it now, we'll be done. But your program, the activities are easy, and they're fine. And I mean, even something like the Superman, it's an easy thing. So there's no really reason for them to grumble about it other than they have to maybe stop what they're doing and do it. Right? But if I'm doing it with them, and I'm like, okay, come on, let's do it. There's no grumbling. They're like, Oh, okay, well do it and we might not do it for the full amount of time or the full amount of reps. But we're at least getting some of it done and so that I would say, Man, I'm just so thankful to have your course and the way that you've made it fun and you kind of have it structured of okay, the bare minimum. So like for the for the model reflex, the bare minimum is you do the opening up and the crossing down. That's the one exercise you need to make sure to do. But if you want to do some extra things, then you've got things like the bean roll and rolling the ball up and down the wall and kicking the ball and different. Oh my gosh, trying to lean over the ball and grab something. So that's a funny one. They don't have the coordination. Yeah, that the that reflex hasn't, you know? Oh, it's a funny one to watch, but it was a good time. But those are things that are like, oh, man. But everything's fun like, what kid doesn't want to sit there and roll back and forth or roll over a ball to try to grab a toy and Okay, throw it to me, and I'm gonna catch it and put it into the basket something like that. So now you guys have done fantastic. Top notch.
Rachel:That means so much.
Jessica:I think so much of the credit goes to you though. Because our course can be as fun and engaging as it is, but without the parent, without you, making it fun for your kids and doing it with them, it would probably still be tedious. I think about my own child. I have a 10 year old and I asked him to go clean his room and he rumbles down the hall and it's so hard. But if I tell him, Hey, let's go to your room and we're going to clean your room together. He's like, Okay, let's do it. It's just It's the biggest change in their wanting to do something is like if you do it with them, they're like, Yeah, let's do it. I want to spend time with you.
Jill:It really is so key and and too, you as a parent, it gives you the opportunity to really notice the finer things of what they're doing with action. So my son when he will do opening up and closing. You watch his little hands and like his fingers are so tight and they're splayed and like the work on this together. We will help you get better and the bean rolls, he couldn't do that for the first several times that we have to stop and now keep doing it. He will do it fast. He'll do it proficient, and it's having fun with it. And then my oldest, like, honestly, the Superman, you would think it's so easy. How can you not do it? And we just start laughing about it and joking to keep it light hearted. But my gosh, I don't understand how you can't like, this is easy. If you want a 20 year old girl, you'd be able to do it because in Pilates class you're always having to do the superman. But yeah, it's funny. It's just make it fun, make it light hearted, don't get stressed about it. And just know that when you notice these little bitty things, you can also see as they like, start to do the movement, and they don't have that tension as much anymore. And then when it's completely gone. And that's what you need for the fuel as the motivated to continue doing.
Jessica:Did you use any video feedback at all to monitor progress?
Jill:I didn't, because we didn't, the phone that comes out or the video comes out, then my kids, at least, they don't, it's a distraction and I don't think maybe if I had an outside person come and do it nonchalantly like where they can'tsee. But I think the video is fantastic because there's, especially when you're doing it with the child, you can't watch their fine movements, everything. So there's things or you can watch one, but you can't watch everybody it's multiple are doing it. And so I've always wanted to have the video, because then you can go back and you can slow it down and you can really study it. And not to mention like your first video versus the last video. What amazing that difference would be. We just haven't been able to do that in our family.
Rachel:That's all good.
Jessica:You still made it work.
Rachel:Yeah. All good. Oh, my gosh, I am blown away. Pat on your back like, it's been so inspiring to talk with you today. Do you have any questions for us? Is there anything that we can help you with that you wrote down that you're like, Yes, this is what I'm stuck with? Throw them our way?
Jill:Yes. Okay. So I would like ooh, question. questions. What questions can I ask? Okay, so a couple easy questions. So I know that it's important to do the exercises in the order of integration. So you're not integrating alater when the Moro reflex hasn't been integrated. But is it okay, that if I feel like one reflex hasn't completely integrated, but we're working on it. So when we have them working on it to go ahead and add the next? So we're working kind of stair step two at a time?
Rachel:Yes, I think so. Yes, just because you think about, if you go back to the timelines that we have in the course, you can see the integration periods. So like the Moro doesn't necessarily need to integrate until six months, but the TLR integrate part of it around three months and up. So they kind of all stagger on top.
Jessica:Like, overlap.
Rachel:Exactly. So you're thinking about the Moro, it sounds like that was the one that is kind of the most retained with your kiddos and with you even as well. You want to definitely focus on that one and when you're seeing progress, and you're making substantial progress, and you're seeing these gains, and maybe you've kind of like plateaued a little bit in the progress, I definitely think that it is okay to start incorporating the next one. It's like, we don't want to do both at the same time initially, because that's when it gets a little bit too much for the brain to process. It potentially can be. So if we're going to start doing the starfish and then we're gonna start doing our flight of the moons and our superman, we're gonna bombard the system with everything at once. We don't want that. So I like how you said it, like work on one, get it started, get it kick started, and then we can start working through the next few as well. Good question.
Jill:That makes a lot of sense. Okay, so then I believe in your course, you've talked about how you can have a reflex that has been integrated and then something could happen, like you could have a fall or something like that and then a reflex to come back. I was wondering, can also there be emotional events that happen that can cause reflex dysintegrate?
Jessica:Yeah, any type of trauma can cause the body to almost revert back, right? It can be physical trauma. It can be emotional trauma. It can be a combination. Any sort of trauma that the body experiences, can cause the body to go back to that more primitive state.
Jill:So then as an adult, what would be some kind of indicators that all right something isn't right, and maybe one of those reflexes has come back?
Rachel:I think if you look at just your overall day to day functioning. If you're struggling with like getting through daily tasks, like going to the grocery store, eating, working out, motivation to do things, your mood. If you're just noticing that things are more challenging than you think they should be, that's when I would say, Okay, let's get to the root of this. Let's figure out what's going on. Let's try the reflex integration and see if it helps and see if it makes
Jessica:I think those are the big ones that I think physical a difference. symptoms as well of like, frequent headaches or migraines, sensitivities to the sun, sensitivities, to certain clothing, to sound. Any of those things that weren't there before, maybe last year or a couple of years ago, and you're like, Oh, this is different. Now I'm more sensitive to these things. Let's take a look at one of the reflexes and see if that could be a potential cause.
Rachel:Pregnancy was a big one for me.
Jessica:And Pregnancy is a big trauma.
Rachel:And that's really like flipped my nervous system. And I've had to really go back and be like, wow, like, I had great birth. I had great pregnancy, like everything was smooth sailing, but birth in general, pregnancy is just it's a traumatic experience for your body and can be for your brain as well. So that's another factor to keep in mind too.
Jill:Yeah, I wouldn't have thought about that. But that's so good. I feel like a postpartum care and grief care too like this should just be naturally part of that progress.
Rachel:We agree.
Jessica:We would welcome that.
Jill:Yeah. I mean, how amazing would that be, because I've seen. So my brother passed away, unexpectedly, very traumatically, when I was pregnant with my first and so like, when you go through the check list, and you see traumatic birth, traumatic events that happened during that time, and being able to correlate that with my oldest and some of the things that he has, it makes so much sense. But then seeing family members, and just noticing like, like, there's things that I noticed about that person that wasn't there before, that they're now that it makes complete sense that something like the Moro reflex, and that fear, coming back, and just being there, that. Ah man, how it would be so amazing to just just as a part of health care.
Jessica:So great. And I feel like the Moro reflex is one of those ones
Rachel:I agree. that probably so many adults have stuck in their body. That it could have integrated in childhood naturally, but then, as an adult, they had some sort of traumatic events, whether it was a family member passing away or some sort of physical accident and that Moro reflex is one of the most protective reflexes that we have. It's that startle. It's that protective, hey, I need help and it's an adrenaline rusha nd it those stress chemicals run through your body and when that reflex is stuck in your body, those stress chemicals are running through your body all the time versus just when they need to be. And so that puts you into a constant state of fight or flight which is going to affect your mood, your coordination, your ability to digest food. When your body's in fight or flight, it can't do other things. So I feel like so many adults are just stuck in that fight or flight with that Moro reflex and it's like if we could just get that into their daily routine into their counseling sessions. Into a workout that's what I do.
Jessica:Yeah, like how much of an impact would that make?
Jill:Yeah, that's amazing. So amazing. I hope that I feel like primitive reflexes is like just coming into its own Like it's just starting to get out there and I I just hope and pray that it becomes a common conversation. Do you know about this?
Rachel:Are your primitive reflexes integrated? Oh, okay. Cool. Glad to hear it.
Jill:You hear about the different types of yoga. They're is holy yoga. There's like is it goat yoga? Hot Yoga. Okay, we need like a primitive reflexes yoga.
Jessica:Yeah.
Rachel:Yes. Oh my gosh. Well, honestly, we could probably talk to you all day. I wish we lived closer so we could get some tea, get some coffee, and like that and just pick your brain because this has been so fun.
Jill:It has been. Well, anytime and I just one message just to get that everybody out there is like you have nothing to lose. You have absolutely nothing to lose. You get quality time with your kids and you have the potential to also change their life and yours too. Do it.
Jessica:Thank you so much for coming on today to talk to us.
Rachel:Yes.
Jill:Well, you're welcome. It was really fun. I enjoyed visiting with you guys and everything about your program and your message. So good. You guys had a blessing to so many people.
Rachel:Thank you, that means a lot.
Jessica:I'm really excited to talk to Jill again. Maybe at the end of this coming summer, when they go through a second summer of consistency with the primitive reflux exercises. Just to hear how it goes and to hear more positive results.
Rachel:It literally makes me giddy like there's no other word. It's just so mind boggling to me that we know, this helps. We know primitive reflex integration is a huge part of development. We know this, okay? We preach this, but to hear it firsthand from someone who has gone through it, and to hear the progress, it's mind boggling, like.
Jessica:It's incredible. It's like the whole reason that we created the course was for parents like Jill, who know deep in their gut that something's not right. That their children need more help and then they do the work and they see all of this amazing progress and their children, her children are thriving. Like that's why we made this course. Are you crying?
Rachel:I could be crying.
Jessica:I thought you were wiping tears.
Rachel:Well no, it's just I am like so in my feels today. Just because it's such a good reminder that we are in the right profession. We are doing such good work such needed work and it's just like such a, I think I mentioned this, but it's such a fire under my bum to be like, we like how can we get this information out even further. You can help us by sharing this episode with someone who needs it, not even needs it just could learn about it and would be open to learning about it.
Jessica:And we highly recommend that you jump into our primitive reflex course.
Rachel:Like Jill said, What do you have to lose?
Jessica:We do have a money back guarantee. So if for some reason you go through our course and you're like, nope, this was crap. They were wrong. I need my money back. We'll go ahead and give you your money back.
Rachel:Yeah.
Jessica:That's how confident we are in the course itself of that our course is just, it takes everything we've learned in the last 10 years, as therapists and on parents, and just trying to help other families and therapists. So this course is great. If you're a therapist, it teaches you how to help your clients and it gives you everything you need to create a home program for your clients.
Rachel:Yeah, I feel like we kind of sound like an infomercial. And we're not even like trying to sell our course right now. We're just like trying to sell the fact that this mom of five kids had such positive results of like, everything from top to bottom.
Jessica:Yeah. And the two key takeaways, if anybody's even still listening after this after I just rambling. I think my two
biggest takeaways were one:do it with your child, do these exercises with your child. If you're a therapist, do these exercises with your clients and the consistency.
Rachel:Yes.
Jessica:Be consistent.
Rachel:I actually have one more. So we are talking after we stopped recording about a couple other things and we were talking about if she was going to add these exercises in every day again, come next summer and she's like, Oh, absolutely. We've got so many more reflexes, we need to cover so many more areas that can be improved and she's like, but my schedule like you should see my calendar. It's so jam packed and so I was thinking I'm like, when my schedule is really busy. If I like block out time for something, it I will be more likely to accomplish it. So I was like, what if you added the reflex exercises to the family calendar so that way you could see it, the kids could see it, and that way it holds a spot on your calendar, which shows how valuable and how meaningful it is to get it done. And she was like, Oh my gosh, okay, well, maybe we'll try this. So that could be another tip to include, again, if you're still listening, and if you are like there's no way my schedule is so busy. So something to try.
Jessica:And with that, thank you for being here. Leave us a review on iTunes or Spotify. share this episode with a friend. Follow us on social media, we're At All Things Sensory Podcast. If you have a question that you want us to answer on the show, go to the link in the show notes and fill out the form and we will answer your question.
Rachel:Okay, love you. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to all things sensory by Harkla.
Jessica:If you want more information on anything mentioned in the show, head over to Harkla.co/podcast to get the show notes.
Rachel:If you have any follow up questions, the best place to ask those in the comments on the show notes or message us on our Instagram account which is at Harkla_family or At All Things Sensory Podcast. If you just search Harkla, you'll find us there.
Jessica:Like we mentioned before our podcast, listeners get 10% off their first order at Harkla. Whether it's for one of our digital courses or one of our sensory swings, the discount code sensory, will get you 10% off.
Rachel:Head to Harkla.co/sensory to use that discount code right now.
Jessica:We are so excited to work together to help create confident kids all over the world. While we make every effort to share correct information, we're still learning.
Rachel:We will double check all of our facts but realize that medicine is a constantly changing science and art.
Jessica:One doctor or therapist may have a different way of doing things from another.
Rachel:We are simply presenting our views and opinions on how to address common sensory challenges, health related difficulties, and what we have found to be beneficial that will be as evidence based as possible.
Jessica:By listening to this podcast you agree not to use this podcast as medical advice to treat any medical condition in either yourself or your child.
Rachel:Consult your child's pediatrician or therapist for any medical issues that he or she may be having.
Jessica:This entire disclaimer also applies to any guests or contributors to the podcast.
Rachel:Thanks so much for listening