Bonus Episode - Connection Between Tongue Ties and ADHD with Melanie Henstrom, IBCLC

This is an extra special bonus episode with an incredible lactation consultant, infant massage instructor, and postpartum doula, Melanie Henstrom, on the subject of all things tongue-tie! 

Melanie lives and works in Boise, Idaho, specializing in teaching prenatal breastfeeding, educating professionals on tongue tie, and how to better support the breastfeeding dyad. 

This podcast is illuminating and potentially life-changing! Melanie shares her professional and personal journey with issues related to the tongue, focused on sleep, breastfeeding, ADHD, and Down Syndrome. 

Melanie explains the need for greater awareness of the tongue to infant developmental stages, and is fighting to bring the tongue into the conversation on issues not traditionally associated with it. 

We hear about her son's struggles with ADHD symptoms and his successes as a result of releasing the tongue. Join us to learn about this vital muscle!

Key Points From This Episode:

• Melanie's career path to lactation consultant, and her wonderful big family.
• Training and transitioning into lactation consultancy and certifications.
• Early symptoms of tongue-tie: frustration, painful nipples, weight loss, and more.
• How tongue-ties present in surprising symptoms and tendencies in babies. 
• Connections between tongue-tie and ADHD symptoms, sleep deprivation, and early signs of tongue-tie. 
• Alleviating breathing issues that can lead to increased anxiety and higher cortisol levels. 
• Narrow palates and treatments through palatal expansion. 
• A recent case study conducted by Melanie on tongue-tie and Down Syndrome. 
• Melanie explains 'bodywork' and why it is integral to tongue-tie release procedures. 
• Closing advice from Melanie and the possibility and realistic nature of release treatments. 

Be sure to check out the show notes on our blog at  Harkla.Co/Podcast.

Brought To You By Harkla

This podcast is brought to you by Harkla.  Our mission at Harkla is to help those with special needs live happy and healthy lives. We accomplish this through high-quality sensory products, child development courses, & The Harkla Sensory Club.

Podcast listeners get 10% off their first order at Harkla with the discount code "sensory". Head to Harkla.co/sensory to start shopping now.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:

Harkla
Melanie Henstrom on LinkedIn
MacroBar Everlasting Joy
Melanie Henstrom on Instagram
Melanie Henstrom on Twitter
Portland Community College
Portland State University
International Board-Certified Lactation Consultant
Jane Morton
Stanford Medical Center
Center for Orofacial Myology
All Things Sensory on Instagram
All Things Sensory on Facebook

Transcript

Rachel: 0:01

Hey there. I'm Rachel.

Jessica: 0:03

And I'm Jessica. And this is all things sensory by Harkla. Together, we're on a mission to help children, families, therapists and educators live happy, healthy lives.

Rachel: 0:12

We dive into all things sensory, a special needs occupational therapy, parenting, self care, and so much more. In each episode, we share raw, honest, fun ideas and strategies for everyone to implement into daily life.

Jessica: 0:25

Thank you so much for joining us.

Rachel: 0:28

Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today is a little bit different. We are doing a bonus episode. This is like 150 2.2.

Jessica: 0:36

I know and see you say like that, and then I say 152 and a half.

Rachel: 0:41

So 150 2.50,

Jessica: 0:43

maybe, whatever you want to call it. This is a bonus episode. We're Rachel and Jessica. And this is a great conversation that you're about to listen to. So should we just dive in?

Rachel: 0:55

I guess so. Yeah. Okay. Good morning. Melanie. How are you today?

Melanie: 1:00

Good morning. I'm doing fantastic. I'm really excited to be able to talk to you guys today and share what we some information about 10 times it's it's kind of my passion and I love sharing and educating and I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity to come on here. Help spread the word.

Jessica: 1:19

Yeah, we're really excited to But before we talk about all those things, we have to ask you our five secret questions.

Rachel: 1:30

Okay, the first one would you rather bungee jump or skydive?

Melanie: 1:35

I'm gonna go with Benji Jones. Why for sure. Just the safety net of course there just in case that doesn't work. I would I would definitely go I truthfully, I probably wouldn't do I had to choose it would be so I would definitely choose bungee jumping over skydiving because of the safety net. I wouldn't want to do either but I had to choose that would be perfect.

Jessica: 2:04

If you could only eat one food for the rest of your life, what would it be?

Melanie: 2:09

I'm going to go with the macro bar everlasting joy. It is pretty yummy.

Jessica: 2:15

Okay, I have no idea what that is not the chai.

Melanie: 2:19

Yeah, there's so good you get to Trader Joe's or I have my subscription they come from Amazon every week okay, that might go to for snack or lunch with a fruit. They're really good.

Rachel: 2:34

Yes. Now apparently we were hungry when we came up with these questions because the next one is would you prefer cake or

Melanie: 2:42

Pie for sure. I cake has to be really really good and pie? really white. But pie, guys my favorite.

Jessica: 2:52

I really like that you said moist. So many people hate that word. So it just makes me laugh. I don't care. I just think it's funny. You know, all

Rachel: 3:01

of our listeners are just like cringing right now. Like stop saying the word Moyse.

Jessica: 3:09

So we're gonna say it again. One more time for the people in the back. I can't do it. All right. Moving on. Who is your favorite musical artist?

Melanie: 3:23

I mean, I have to say right now probably Ed Sheeran. Because of his music, okay, okay, like him. Josh Groban. Josh Groban is also very good. Boy,

Rachel: 3:36

classic. Definitely. Okay. All right. Last one. What is your sensory cork?

Melanie: 3:45

That's a good question. Never had that even though.

Rachel: 3:50

This is a sensory podcast, so we always have to ask it.

Melanie: 3:55

Okay, I would maybe the first thing that comes to mind is like I don't like things tight. I, for the longest time used to sleep. This was kind of a silly thing about me. But I used to sleep in my workout clothes. So that I could just hop up and get written get working out. Yeah, and my husband gets a Muni to get comfortable pajamas and wear pajamas. So I went bought me a few pair of pajamas this last year and I have loved having that. Just relaxed. But I thought Why did I do that for all those years?

Rachel: 4:28

Interesting. All right. All right. So even during the day, like your outfits during the day, do you like pick your clothes based on comfort?

Melanie: 4:39

For sure, absolutely. Yeah,

Jessica: 4:42

yeah, me too.

Rachel: 4:43

I'm definitely get on board with that. I especially when I was pregnant. I hated things that were too tight. It was so uncomfortable.

Melanie: 4:51

Yeah, for sure.

Jessica: 4:53

Okay, now that everybody knows your deepest, darkest secrets, can you tell our listeners who you are and what you do and why you do it?

Melanie: 5:02

You betcha. So I My name is Melanie Henson. And I'm seeing lactation consultant. I moved to Boise about almost five years ago. And we have absolutely loved it here we moved from Portland, I am a mom of six, including twins. And my my kids are older now My oldest is 27, and my other 2523. And they're 20. And I only have one left at home. He's 17. So I'm kind of at the other end of all of the motherhood stuff. But I'm also grandma to with one on the way, which is super exciting. And I was a stay at home mom for 16 years through with all my kids. And did you know I did do a little side gigs like preschool. And we had a little dance studio out of our house for a few years of my girls for the little which was super fun. But for the most part, it was just stay home. And when my youngest went back to school full time, I actually kind of went into a little bit of a funk, maybe even some depression, because I have been taken care of so many little people for so long, and didn't have anything to do. And I had been parent helping at the schools for all of that time too. And it wasn't my favorite thing. So I thought I gotta figure out something to do for myself, and decided to become a postpartum doula. So I did that for several years, mainly helping families with twins and triplets. I really loved that job for the most part, but then I really felt compelled to go into acting. And so about probably about seven ish years ago, I went back to school and did my training for international board certified lactation consultants and have been doing that ever since. I love it.

Rachel: 6:51

Awesome. I didn't realize about that. And now if you're a stay at home mom and went back to school and got into it, and that postpartum doula that's so interesting.

Melanie: 7:02

Yeah.

Rachel: 7:03

I don't even know that was a thing. Honestly. It was just like a birthing doula.

Melanie: 7:06

Yeah, I didn't know either. In fact, I don't even know about birth. doulas that I found out about doulas at a park one day when I was with my one of my kids. And this mom came up to me and started talking and she told me she was a birth doula. And this is when I was kind of in my funk and trying to figure out what am I going to do with myself? And so she told me that she was a birth doula. And I was like, what's that? That sounds cool. And I was all excited. I'm like, I'm going to be a birth doula. And then I went home and thought about it. I'm like, I can't be a birth do I have six kids? My schedule will not permit for me to just be up and running to birth here in there. But and learning about postpartum doula work birth, doula work, I found out about postpartum. And I was like, I can do that. I can schedule that. And it's an interesting job as a postpartum doula. Really, we're not really a nanny, we're not a housekeeper. And yet, we do sometimes do some things that are in crossover to that, mainly, it's like emotional support for these nuns, I call it the mom of the mom. So we're kind of taking place of when grandma can't be there. We're there to help with whatever needs to happen the meals, shopping, laundry, like housework, helping with other children, and someone can get some rest help me with breastfeeding. So for the most part, I enjoyed it too. But I really felt like I wanted to do something a little bit more medical and kind of step up my game on education. And that's where that all happened.

Jessica: 8:37

So I'm curious what is the training look like to become a lactation consultant?

Melanie: 8:43

Sure. So if you are not already an RN, you do have to take all the prerequisites that an RN takes. So all of the all of the biology, physiology, sociology, communication, anatomy, microbiology, several other classes. So you take all of that, I mean, there's 14 classes specifically that you take. And I was lucky for me because I had actually started out as a pre nursing major for my undergraduate and then changed and graduated something else. So I was able to most of my prereqs were already done, which was super lucky. And then you take 90 hours of lactation specific classes. And I did that in Portland, they had a I had it at Portland Community College at the time, it's now been moved to Portland State University with the same director there and turning 60 wetzell. And there's programs all over the state or all over the nation that you can do be online virtually, or in person or hybrid. Now they have some hybrid options. So you do those classes and usually those take about a year to do mine took two semesters to get those done. And then you do anywhere from 300 to 1000 clinical hours. So you're working with a university who's proctoring your hours, then it's 300. If you're working with someone who is an ibclc, that's 500 for and you have to have all of your hours with them. Or if you're getting your hours on your own, it's 1000. And those are, you know, they, you have to keep track of them. And if you get audited, you have to prove that you did those assigned. And then you, once you've got all of that done, then you sit for the international board exam, which you apply for. And it's not very easy to test. They make it very, very difficult and tricky. You always are stressing that I pass am I going to pass. And the good news is, is they just changed at this year where once you passed, you don't have to keep taking it, you used to have to retake it every 10 years. You do have to recertify every five with continuing ed but now you can recertify every five with just continuing out and not have to sit for the exam. Which is nice because doctors and nurses don't have to reset. So why don't we write?

Rachel: 11:17

For sure. That sounds a lot like the A OTA Yeah, two very similar.

Jessica: 11:24

Okay, so you, you mentioned some letters in there when you're talking ibclc. What is that?

Melanie: 11:32

Yes. So that is International Board Certified Lactation Consultant.

Jessica: 11:36

Okay.

Rachel: 11:37

Can you cuz I know that there's two, there's a certified lactation consultant. And then there's the international board certified, can you clarify the difference between those?

Melanie: 11:45

Yeah, so there are actually lots of different classifications for breastfeeding specialists we have, we have CZ of breastfeeding specialists, we have, I don't even know all of them. Certified Lactation educators we have, I think there's probably four or five different classifications on different ways that people can help moms that are breastfeeding. But ibclc is the gold standard is really what you want to be having when you see someone or lactation because most others, all of the things that I do are out of scope for them. So they're more of like a mom to mom support. Or they're educating prenatally for how to be successful breastfeeding. They're not they don't have the ability to assessment or ties. Even though we're technically not even supposed to say that a baby's Tongue Tied per se, we can I type the ties. So we'll say type 1, 2, 3, 4, there's symptoms of ties, and then you know, the doctor or the dentist that we refer to as the one ultimately to make that final decision. Or if parents want to do a release that, you know, people that are not ibclcs are not even supposed to be doing those assessments, they would most of them would probably not be allowed to like introduce a supplemental nurse or system or really even right, if a care plan per se, it would be more just like, oh, let's learn work on the latch or, you know, kind of troubleshoot as a monotone.

Jessica: 13:17

Yeah, I'm just thinking of when I had my son, you know, seven and a half years ago, and I did have, you know, I'm assuming it was a lactation consultant come in and look at his latch and our positioning. But I mean, that was really it.

Melanie: 13:34

Yeah, I think that are the problem with the system, the hospitals don't hire an ibclcs. And so these poor nurses who are often also ibclcs, or not even ibclcs are having to try to help the therefore normies with latch and making sure that baby's doing well. And, you know, I talked to colleagues who work in the hospital, and sometimes they'll have anywhere from 30 to 60 patients to see a day. Oh, wow, you just can't be effective at getting the right support for these moms and babies when you're doing that. It's just chaotic.

Jessica: 14:14

For real.

Rachel: 14:16

So we we just spoke with Dr. Zink. He's the pediatric dentist that you work with with tongue ties and he gave us his explanation of the Tethered oral tissues. Can you share your explanation or your definition of the tots quote unquote tops tethered?

Melanie: 14:35

Yeah. So yeah, tell her her own tissue is is definitely something that we've become more and more educated with. Over time as we've wanted more and more moms are recognizing how important breastfeeding is and want to do that so much that I think that's why we're there's such a greater awareness of it is because moms at all costs will have respite circumstances and so There's been, you know, for sure more education and learning on how to help these moms and babies that are struggling. Tethered oral tissue, we can have ties throughout the mouth. The ones that we mainly address are the lip and the tongue. But we can have what are called Faculteit or cheek tight. And those actually often will cause of dimples too. We rarely do any releasing on buckles, because that doesn't usually affect the flange. So once we release the lip, we usually are fine. And, and the tongue is the in my opinion, if I had to guess percentage, and this is just my opinion, the tongue is 90% of breastfeeding the lip. Sometimes we can even have turned in lip or a neutral lip and still have a fantastic breastfeeding session. It doesn't always have to be fully planned, although that's optimal. So that is as long as the tongue is functional, we usually are doing fantastic. Okay.

Rachel: 16:01

I guess I'm thinking of all of our listeners, and just a lot of the questions that I've gotten on this topic, do all ibclcs like work with tots work with those tethered oral tissues? I mean, how do you find someone who's trained and who's knowledgeable in different areas?

Melanie: 16:21

Right? Right. So our best resource probably is asking around to other moms in the area that have been struggling with with talks and how to successful release. And then each state has a state tongue tie support group. Oh, live in Nevada, the Nevada is or whatever some of the states, if they're smaller, have like, proofed states together. But usually, as long as the group is being run well by the admin, they are keeping track of the providers that are educated and doing good releases and meaning then they can refer people to the right resources. So part of our problem is that believe it or not, even though ibclc is the gold standard, for some reason, they have not adopted the importance of time tie into the training. And to me, that is not okay. I don't know why we talked about it for if I had to guess one hour in all my coursework, so ibclcs? The answer is no, they're not all trained. In fact, most of them are not the way that I got my training was reaching out and going to conferences, and they're specifically for tongue tie. And I was also super blessed to be mentored by Brenda Sanpei, who is actually known worldwide, she goes around and teaches a class or ibclcs, with a bunch of other ibclcs and other providers that are helping mums and babies with struggles. And she shadowed her for a year and was able to learn about the signs and symptoms and the assessment and all of those things for tights, and had I not have that then I would be worried as far as being able to cook these kinds of beans. So the other problem we have is that even within our own colleagues, we have individuals that don't necessarily believe in ties or they are trained inappropriately on ties. Some believe that they there are faux ties, and that they are just there's different problems causing issues which that there are different problems sometimes that are causing eating issues. But when we have dysfunction in the mouth, and is almost always a tongue tie, when we get in there, we have issues, we have lingual weakness, we have an inability to have the time reach the floor of the mouth, we have narrowed palates, which suggests that the tongue was resting on the floor of the mouth instead of the upper palate. So all of those things, when we see them, then those are definite Ding, ding, ding, there's a tongue tie going on here. And yet, individuals are just not trained to find that. And really, it's not hard. It's like once you learn it and know it, it's, you know, it just makes sense. I tell people all the time. I'm like, if you if people can just come shadow me for a week, I think I could help so many colleagues get on this page, but it's just not they're not understanding but what I'm seeing.

Jessica: 19:40

I want to come shadow you.

Melanie: 19:43

You can we'll let you Oh, I might just do that.

Rachel: 19:48

It's so interesting. Now, you know, you've been my lactation consultants throughout this whole process with Tripp and I just find it so interesting because you know, I'm a medical professional. I didn't catch the signs earlier early enough. So can you share what some of the early warning signs are? I won't say necessarily warning signs. But like just the

Jessica: 20:12

earliest. Yes.

Melanie: 20:15

Yeah, absolutely. So most of the time in those first few days, I would say our biggest symptoms that we see, are they getting frustrated at the breast even with just the colostrum and a sleepy being really frequent bees? And people say, well, that's normal, because we only have a certain amount of colostrum. Yeah, it's common, but I don't know that I would say it's good have a baby be able to feed and then not be starving. 10 minutes later. Milk slow to come in, is a sign that baby's not transferring that foster well enough out in order to stimulate milk supply. Obviously, painful nipples, really painful feed, um, damage on the nipple. If we can get a good latch and then baby showers out, it's because they're thrusting breast tissue out instead of drawing the end. And I'll visualize that for you. So if you have breast tissue in here, and babies thrusting them out, each time that they suck versus drawing in, then we that's why we have some of these babies and people keep saying well, they have a shell that will shallow latch is because of contrasting instead of drying tissue. We'll see often reset. After all tissue pooling during development. We will see Dave's dislike tummy time, obviously poor note supply, um, sometimes Melco come in fine. And then that's great for the first few months as it's normally driven. And then when we go to supply and demand with these babies not transferring out very well, we'll see nons and they'll start to wane. So we can even see good weight gain in the first couple months. And then we'll see a peter out and not do well. So John does significant jaundice can be a sign, obviously significant weight loss. I've seen up to believe it or not 19% weight loss with a baby. I always am really concerned anytime we're you know, 10 or more, it really either not see even past 5%. And I believe if we have a mom with a good amount of colostrum and a baby with a functional term, that really we shouldn't even necessarily see weight loss, which seems kind of weird. But we have so many type babies that we've made it normal even though it's just common to say Oh, It's fine as long as they don't lose more than 10%. But what I have found as if we really hit things hard early on, with the recommendation, actually in Jane Morton, who is a MD at Stanford Medical Center, her recommendation is to breastfeed first and express colostrum and then spoon or cut feed that to be after each meeting, at least during the day hours. And that helps to stimulate and bring that milk in faster. Babies getting more especially since we don't know at that point in baby's time. And then we tend to see less problems and the more milk we remove in those early days. And really those first two weeks when the prolactin receptor sites are being laid down, the better off we will supply a wire on down the road. So we won't have any supply issues at all.

Jessica: 23:26

So interesting. What is your specific role in where you work?

Melanie: 23:35

Yeah, so I have my own private practice, but I'm also part of the Center for orofacial myology. And my role basically, is to ensure that breastfeeding is successful for these nuns of AIDS, and are often when we have people coming in to see me and things are dysfunctional. And so yes, I do see a lot of tongue ties because I've rarely seen beads that are doing well. And so my role is to assess baby's mouth. My role is to make sure mom's milk supply is protected. Make sure baby's getting enough and hopefully that is all at the breast. So we have the number one is is baby getting. Second priority is protecting them supply. Third is having been the grassed if that's the goal for that diet. So in that order, super important to keep in mind because sometimes if breastfeeding isn't going well and they're just mom is just at her wit's end and can't or doesn't desire to, to protect suffi at least baby's getting enough so we do everything that we can to accomplish all three of those schools in that.

Rachel: 24:48

We just want to take a minute and talk to you about our company Harkla. Our mission at Harkla is to help those with special needs live happy, healthy lives. Not only do we accomplish this through the podcast, but we also have therapy products. Easy to follow digital courses and the Harkla sensory club to try to bring holistic care to you and your family.

Jessica: 25:06

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Rachel: 25:21

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Jessica: 25:33

learn more about Harkla. And all we have to offer@harkla.co That's h a r k L A dot C O. And don't forget to use the discount code sensory to get 10% off your first purchase. That's s e n s o r y for 10% off.

Rachel: 25:55

And the best part is all Harkla orders come with a lifetime guarantee and free shipping.

Jessica: 26:02

You really can't beat that.

Rachel: 26:03

No, you can't. Okay, let's get back to the show. So I'll share this this with you as well. So you told me you got your tongue released your tongue tie release as an adult. I had a gal reach out to me and she said she got hers done. And they took the measurements this is I'm you're hearing this story

Jessica: 26:27

like 30 times. I'm sorry.

Rachel: 26:29

It's so interesting. They took measurements of her touching her toes before the release. And then her leaning over and touching her toes after the release. And it was like three inches of a difference. She could touch her she could touch her knuckles to the ground afterwards. And I think it's so crazy because that's me like I have never been able to touch my toes. I'm not a flexible person. I'm tight. My neck is tight. Like, could this be like what's affecting the population and the tense and tightness in our bodies?

Melanie: 27:03

I absolutely believe so. If you there's actually a diagram and I shared this on my Instagram post. So it's just that Melanie Hedstrom for anyone that wants to lift this up, but it's probably about 10 posts down, I have a diagram of the tongue and then the fascia at the base of the tongue all the way down to the toes so that you can see the connection of what you know they, they actually did a diagram of the cadaver. So it's interesting because if we do have that tight fascia, it can affect so many things from digestion to tight neck and back. A lot of our tongue tie babies will see them like this. You ever see a baby that's fine. Or they have no neck, I can almost guarantee you that they are tongue tight, which is crazy. We see less struggles with burping so less gassy. Without ties, we see less hiccups, which is also interesting. So it's it is it can affect so many things tight and the TMJ headaches. My reflex disappeared after my release, my migraines disappeared and my scoliosis almost completely resolved. I used to have a dog there's hump, which I don't know if you know what that is. But it's the back lump on your back. Mine was so bad. I had a pinched nerve in there that it just hurt all the time. And it's pretty much gone. So food intolerances have improved for me. And I think that's probably also because I've gone off of all of my acid reducers I don't need them anymore. So yes, I am very much a fan because of how life changing it's been for my health.

Jessica: 28:43

Can I ask about your kids? Did they have time? Do they have 10 ties?

Melanie: 28:49

So I had breastfeeding issues with probably all my kids to be honest, it's a little bit of a blur because I had when my twins were born I my oldest was just almost seven. So the six, five and under with twin newborns. So my my life has been a little bit of a whirlwind for many, many years until recently. And don't really remember a 10 of breastfeeding. I remember at times that hurting I don't know that I had severe damage except for when my daughter's teeth came in. For my first I remember having thrush all the time. I remember having mastitis multiple times and I didn't know at the time that it was from probably tiny babies, but they all luckily gained fine. We didn't ever really have some five issues or anything. I was able to successfully breastfeed twins pretty much exclusively Wow. So I was pretty lucky for that but as adults because things work so well for me. We I have had my entire family except for my oldest daughter released probably needs at the most but she won't admit it I think she just doesn't want to do it. But anyway, so we, yeah, I've, I've talked to all of my kids and my husband and both of my grandbabies were released to the they were not having breastfeeding problems per se. But one of them could not swallow solids. She just tongue thrusted, gagged and choked everything, even applesauce. And so at eight months, she was released. And then my second grandbaby was breastfeeding beautifully also. But when I went back to visit her two months, her spine had started to curve and she looked like the banana sideways. And my daughter was having chronic clogged up starting. So she finally decided to have her released and her spine straight and right out and the index went away. So, you know, really, anytime you see anything unusual happening with baby or mom, these symptoms that are just their class, they're there. They happen so often that people think it's normal, but it's not. Right. It's normal to have like that. It's not normal. It's not normal.

Jessica: 31:08

Yeah, it shouldn't be that hard. Yeah.

Rachel: 31:10

And I didn't. I can't remember if it was you or not, but you someone had shared a story about the connection between ADHD and a tongue tie. And when they got them release, a lot of the ADHD symptoms improved.

Melanie: 31:24

Yes. So I went to my twins, okay, actually was my only child that was C section, which is interesting. And now that I know what I know, he definitely would have gone on probiotics. And he was really out of all my kids, my only child that struggled with academics with social, all my kids are no students, except for him. No one really had anything unusual. But when he was about three, we started wondering what was going on. He was having just seem disconnected. He wouldn't like you and I, we started researching and taking him to a specialist thinking maybe he was autistic. And they they said no, he's not autistic. So then we thought maybe Asperger's now is Asperger's. So we finally got a diagnosis, I think around second grade. And we took him to a specialist who did some testing on him. And she said, he has ADHD. And we looked at her and we said, he's not hyperactive. And she said, But is he? Does he do things compulsively? And I'm just like, Yes, he does do kind of interesting things. And we wonder what his brain is thinking. So we finally got a diagnosis. And he really struggled with school, he struggled socially. So we decided to put him on medication, which actually helped pretty tremendously. So he was on conservative for probably 10 years. And in his senior year of high school, we did a release on him. And about a few months later, I noticed, Okay, it's time to order his meds, I need to go see where we're at. And I go to open in the bottle, and they're all cool. And I was like, What's going on Spencer? And he said, I don't like the way they make me feel anymore. I'm like, Well, you kind of need them. So let's talk about that. He's like, I think I'm fine. I just I don't like him anymore. And I said, Okay, well, I want you to listen to your body. I'm glad to hear that. So we decided to give it a try without meds. And the only thing that I can think of is that by releasing his time, a couple of things could have happened. And maybe. So when you have tethered oral tissue, your tongue will often not the entire time by cannot reach the upper palate where it's supposed to be when you sleep. So because of that we're more likely to have airway issues where that falls back into your throat. And he definitely was kind of a wild sleeper like if we want to have notifications, and no one wanted to say expensive. And I haven't watched him since then. But my theory is that he sleeps better. He seems to be more alert. And he has schooling he did fine in his final semester at in high school. He did well. He actually ended up getting a half scholarship to college, which we were thrilled with. And I just got a text from him this morning. So he's done three semesters of college since since he's been home from his mission, and he has his first two semesters got four O's, and is hopeful this semester is finishing up this week. He will and he just texted us this morning to tell us he's on full scholarship. Why in the world, this is not the same kid we did not think we would ever be there. That's so and the other theory that I have to and this happened to me with my digestive system is that when you have tethered oral tissue To view are not stimulating the vagus nerve when you swallow as well, to let the brain know I've just eaten something released digestive enzymes. So if those digestive enzymes aren't being released, then how do you break down those foods? And if those foods don't get broken down, then you have fogging of the brain because those proteins will release into the bloodstream undigested. And that is the, you know, a theory actually, that they have for ADHD and autism anyway. And they also have lead, though that whole spectrum to higher risk with multiples, which are often more likely to kind of see section. Yeah. So if you don't have good gut flora, then you also have that problem. Yes. So all of those things. And so we've done we, for awhile, cleaned up his diet when he was younger, and that really helped. But it was really hard to sustain. We did probiotics with him, we did all those things. But ultimately, if I had to be honest, and we did every possible, ot thing known to man, for that kid, all growing up every year, we would pick something listening program, or an interactive metronome, or, you know, whatever they whatever that routine came up with, we were doing. Ultimately, in my opinion, what helped him the most was the temporary release, which some people may seem some crazy, but I believe that that's what happened. Well,

Jessica: 36:27

and I've heard several studies about how sleep deprivation can cause the same signs and symptoms of ADHD. So I mean, 100% believe that that is a thing. I think

Melanie: 36:41

there's right, for sure. For sure, yeah.

Jessica: 36:45

So then can we talk more about sleep and, you know, blocking that airway, and mouth breathing and all of that?

Melanie: 36:55

Yeah. So in utero, a lot of these time babies because their tongue is not hitting the palate, we get these misformed palates. So the tongue is supposed to shape the palate, always, especially when we're developing and growing. So if it is not up on your upper palate, then you're most likely tight. So you shouldn't have a palatal seal. And babies can do this. And the other thing that I also like to kind of say, is to make sure that people don't misunderstand this is I have seen babies my grandbabies where I learned this where I didn't think she was tired, because she had a beautiful palatal seal, her whole tongue body was up there. But she still started exhibiting symptoms of tight fascia as she grew, and she started to occur. But most of our time, babies can't do that. So we go and see a baby sleeping, and we pull down their chin, and their tongues roasting in the floor of their mouth, it's almost certainly a type. Or if we see that forward tongue posture that you just did, Rachel, when we see a baby that has their tongue hanging out, that's almost always a posterior type. So we want that tongue to actually form the palate, and it keeps pressure on the palate, so that the cheeks don't collapse the palate. Otherwise, so we'll see what are called cathedral palettes, which are really high and narrow, or bubble palettes, where we have this little bubble in the front of the palate. And those are from where just the tip of the tongue has hit the palate, but not the whole time body. And so when we go in to do those assessments, and we see those narrow palettes, or bubble palettes, then those are signs of that Tang is not going where it's supposed to be. And I'm just always after release, unless there significantly will be missed. Or if the call is really too small for the tongue, we will see that 10 start to rest up there where it's supposed to be to protect the airway. And the airway is huge, because if we're mouth breathing, we are taking in allergens through our mouth instead of filtering them through our nose. And that's where we get the enlarged tonsils and adenoid problems, which then make their way even smaller. And so a lot of these kids are prone to allergies and asthma. Oh my gosh.

Rachel: 39:21

So the other thing that we were talking with Dr. Zinke about was the connection between mouth breathing and like being in that fight or flight response. Because if your airway is small and you aren't getting optimal breath each time you take a breath, you're almost like trying to just survive, and you're in that survival mode.

Melanie: 39:39

Right? Right. And I actually live that life like I live that every day I don't have so just because my tongue was released. That is the one thing that has not improved for me. Unfortunately, it's probably the thing that I would have wanted improvement on the most. That because my palate is too narrow for my tongue. And it's too narrow both lengthwise because of my tongue tie. But it also is too narrow or too short because I ground down my tea, which I think I still have my seat. Okay, so my palate is too narrow for my time because I was tethered. And because I ground down some of my tea from from, from tongue tie, before I was released, I don't have the space vertically or horizontally for my time to successfully rest on my palate. And because of that I still having some sleep issues and having that cortisol release at night too. And I believe that's the reason why I'm I'm having trouble continuing to lose weight is I just can't I'm not my body is in fight or flight. So it for sure, and I believe that tank has increased risk of anxiety for that reason, right? We have, and chronic anxiety leads to depression. So you know, if we can all sleep better if we can all have our food digested better, like the whole world would be happier, healthier minds, for sure.

Jessica: 41:10

Well, yeah, those two things, you know, nutrition and sleep. That's how our bodies survive. And so if our bodies aren't getting what they need in those areas, it's going to cause a whole plethora of issues. plethora, yeah. I was going to ask, so you said your palate is too narrow. So how do you fix that?

Melanie: 41:32

So you can do palatal expansion and having no we were going to wear masks for over a year, I might have done that. But I didn't want to have a space between my teeth. So there is actually just found out there isn't the there is a system called homeopathic doctors, it's been researching stuff for me and options to see what we can do to help. And that one, I think does not cause teeth Spacey. So I've considered it. And my problem is, as I really struggled asleep with extra stuff in my mouth, I've tried a lot of the doodads to bring my jaw forward and to help with airway and I just don't sleep well. So I'm a little bit nervous about investing, investing another another several $1,000 into something that I don't know if I will tolerate. So yeah, there's there's a lot of options, but whether or not I will go that route, I don't know.

Jessica: 42:29

Why don't you just get a CPAP machine and you know, force that air down.

Melanie: 42:35

So I have tried that I actually for a year, about 10 years ago, try to CPAP, I likely had a provider that was willing to let me try pretty much every mouse they had in their entire place. And I just could not tolerate them. I usually could fall asleep fine with it. But then I'd wake up an hour or two later, and I couldn't go back to sleep. So we even tried Ambien to try to get me used to it. And it just never, I never can do so but I am now that I'm older and feeling more exhausted, thinking I might try it again. I'm actually seeing those sleep specialists in a couple of weeks to see that and see if there are some new masks on the market that might be a little bit more tolerable.

Rachel: 43:18

So crazy, so interesting.

Jessica: 43:21

Okay, so as you were talking about, you know, the tongue and where it should rest and all that stuff. I was just thinking about our kiddos with Down syndrome, and how their tongues are so large, and they've opened mouth postures and their tongues are protruded all time. So do these kids have tongue ties? And would they benefit from a tongue tie release? Because I think you know, kids with Down syndrome, it's a little bit of a different situation.

Melanie: 43:47

Right. Well, so that is interesting that you passed. I actually just this week wrote a case study on a nose and a baby that I worked with a few months ago. Okay. And I, I Yeah, and my biggest concern, too, was like they have low town is this a good idea? Bad idea, whatever. And he was really struggling with breastfeeding and not really wanting to breastfeed. So I reached out to some of my colleagues, it had been working longer than I have. And we've worked with more special needs than I do and wanted to make sure there were no contraindications for doing a release on a Down Syndrome baby. And we actually did not find any concerns with that. And so we did the release, and that baby is arriving was getting beautifully exclusively mom is thrilled. They're gaming beautifully developing beautifully. Not a single issue whatsoever. So that was kind of exciting to see that.

Jessica: 44:40

That's really awesome. That just like opens up a whole new world I feel for these kids. Yeah,

Rachel: 44:46

definitely. Wow, for

Melanie: 44:47

sure. For sure. Yeah, so I have a nephew and a stepbrother who have Down Syndrome and I've talked to family members about you know, possibly considering a release for them, especially now. We've seen the positive with this baby. And they, I guess just haven't put it as a priority for whatever reason, but both of them have significant speech issues. Speaking of which, there was I think it was just this last year, there was a news to report about a boy that was autistic, who they thought was unable to speak. He was deemed and you know, his speech was completely unintelligible and they did a return type release on him and all of a sudden he was able to

Jessica: 45:32

speak and what ever you are.

Melanie: 45:35

Yeah, so do ya. So do a search do a Google on that and autistic tongue tie release. It's a real thing. I totally read that. So, craziness, how it's so crucial if you can't use your tongue. I mean, it's, it's one of the most in my opinion next to the heart, maybe a muscle in your body. Like, it really is. so crucial.

Jessica: 46:01

Oh, my gosh.

Rachel: 46:03

Okay, one. One last thing, before we let you go kind of a common word that we hear when we're going to either get a tongue tie release or after the tongue tie release as bodywork, can you share kind of an overview of what bodywork is and what that looks like, and also why it's important?

Melanie: 46:21

Absolutely. So our tongue tie babies are often compensating because they're not often they are compensating because of the other girl tissue, they're just not able to do things correctly. So most of these babies will engage their cheeks to try to get out their jaw will see a huge motion of the jaw. A lot of these things, because of that they'll tighten up. And because a lot of these babies are taken on air, they're often very fussy, colicky spitty, which then causes pain. And so these babies are, they're just typed all over more times than not, we see high pitched in to see through the entire body. So body work includes suck training, which is what I do with the patients, we also teach the parents to do that daily because they can't come see us daily. And with that includes like, some cheap massage, John massage, tracing the gum line things to strengthen the time machine on the tongue. So we actually do some training where we kind of do a tug of war with the time, we can even work on palette expansion doing away from the palette. So those are kind of the things that we teach parents, then chiropractic is important. So we can get spine alignment, because a lot of these babies that have that tight fascia at the base of their tongue, will see you know, things out Upper Cervical all the way down to lower surgically. And then we also feel that it's really important to have a soft tissue work done too, because if we don't, then those muscles keep pulling us out of alignment. And cranial sacral therapy helps to calm the central nervous system, it's basically a therapy to just bring that central nervous system down and release tension and heal from trauma. So all of those things together really work in conjunction to help this baby be as optimal as possible. I also am trained in infant massage, cranial sacral therapy and rhythmic movements. And I teach the parents some infant massage and the rhythmic movements to do with the beads too. Because again, we can be a therapist every day to go out bodywork or the chiropractor every day. So these are things that parents can do a few times a day to help these babies to start to have new patterns that are up to them.

Rachel: 48:46

I love it. So interesting.

Jessica: 48:48

I know I like the teamwork approach. Everything affects everything else.

Melanie: 48:53

Yeah, yeah.

Rachel: 48:58

Okay, so to wrap up, what is your one piece of advice that you can leave everyone new moms, adults, anyone listening right now?

Melanie: 49:08

I would recommend everyone. Well, for everyone. If you have symptoms of Thai, if you're freaked out about doing a release, it's not that bad, then the most important thing for, especially for older children and adults is in doing a release you really need to do the body work before and after you not see as good of results because your body has been doing things wrong for many, many months or many years. And for new moms, I would say if you're having problems don't suffer through eye contact and IVCC who is trained in ties that and they if they don't give you help keep looking helps you figure out what's going on with your baby. Don't keep suffering a lot of times people like they don't want to spend the money or they think oh this is normal but it's not. It's not normal to have Problems of breastfeeding. So get help early, like in the first few days don't wait. I might drop.

Rachel: 50:07

Yes. Thank you so much, Melanie, we are so appreciative.

Jessica: 50:13

I just followed you on Instagram when I looked at that picture you were talking about, so we just want to make sure everybody goes and follows you on Instagram. Yeah,

Rachel: 50:20

I'll link everything in the show notes. Appreciate it. Get in touch with you. Yeah, we have any local

Melanie: 50:27

good? Yes, for sure. All right, my

Rachel: 50:30

dear. Thank you. We'll talk to you later.

Melanie: 50:32

Thank you so much. I appreciate that opportunity. Yeah, very nice. Of course, it's a good day.

Rachel: 50:40

Episode 152 point 2.5

Jessica: 50:43

bonus. So Melanie is really fun to chat with. She's very knowledgeable. Oh my gosh, passionate and passionate, I'm gonna go ahead and head over to the clinic and just hang out with her. Follow her for like a week so that I can learn more, I think that'd be cool.

Rachel: 51:01

I have had the lucky opportunity to actually work with her and have her in my life and in my journey with Tripp and she is just a breath of fresh air and very, very knowledgeable. So we hope that you all learn something new. And we hope that y'all will leave a review on iTunes after you listen to this bonus episode. We appreciate those Believe it or not,

Jessica: 51:23

we actually read the podcast reviews. So if you like something if you don't like something, we do take constructive criticism. You know, if you call us a bad name, we probably won't take that very well. But if there's anything you can think of that we can do better to make your listening experience more enjoyable.

Melanie: 51:46

Yeah, even topics you want

Rachel: 51:48

to hear more about, you know, I've had a lot of people requesting this topic after I was sharing about our journey. And apparently, a lot of you want to learn about these things.

Jessica: 51:58

So we need to learn about these things. So let us know what else y'all want to learn about because we learn right along with you.

Rachel: 52:05

Absolutely. Okay, y'all have questions. Hit us up on Instagram at all things sensory podcast, and take a screenshot while you're listening and tag us and tag, Melanie Hedstrom as well while you're listening.

Jessica: 52:17

All right, go have a great day.

Rachel: 52:21

Thank you so much for listening to often come to by Harkla. If you want more information on anything we mentioned in the show, head over to Harkla.co slash podcast to get all the templates.

Jessica: 52:33

We always have the show notes and links plus full transcripts to make following along as easy as possible for everyone. If you have follow up questions, the best place to ask those comments in the show notes or message us on our Instagram, which is at Harkla underscore family. If you just search Harkla to find us.

Rachel: 52:53

Like we mentioned before our podcast listeners get 10% off their first order of Harkla. Whether it's been one of our digital courses, one of our sensory screens, the discount code sensory, we'll say 10% That code is s e n s o ry, head over to Harkla.co slash the three T's that code right now. So you don't forget.

Jessica: 53:15

We're so excited to work together to help create competent kids all over the world and work towards a happier healthier life.

Rachel: 53:22

All right, we'll talk to you guys next week. Just a friendly reminder this is general information related to occupational therapy pediatrics and sensory integration. We do not know you or your child therefore we do not know any specific needs therefore you should always refer back to your pediatrician and occupational therapist for more information