Breastfeeding on Twitch: Conversation with HeatheredEffect | Episode 19 - Mind of Snaps Podcast

I was minding my own business one day (sorta) while scrolling through Twitter, and I came across a thread that bummed me out. I saw folks piling on and shaming a woman who had chosen to breastfeed on Twitch, and it made me feel bad. I reached out to the person everyone was attacking and offered support and asked if she'd like to be on the podcast. I'm grateful that HeatheredEffect agreed.

We had a great conversation that I think can help clear up some of the common concerns and misconceptions a lot of folks expressed while voicing their unease about a woman simply feeding her child.

I hope you'll all listen with an open mind. Remember: "you're not really listening unless you're willing to be changed by the other person." -Alan Alda.

This is the link to the video with the lactation expert we discussed: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/463335276

Here is where you can find Heather: https://linktr.ee/heatheredeffect

Heather is a super smart, very sweet woman and I'm glad she joined me for this discussion. Listen and let us know your thoughts.


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Jessy (Mind Of Snaps / SheSnaps)

www.MindofSnaps.com

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

[inaudible].

Speaker 2: 0:07

Welcome to the mind of snaps podcast with your host chef, Aka she stamps, popular twitch broadcaster, photographer, entrepreneur, and then do all that again and listen. Future casts expect to fall along with Sam's as she learns more about her mind, the world and her career. Humans, it could be messy in you, but stick around. You might just learn something as you went through the mind of snaps.

Speaker 1: 0:32

[inaudible]

Speaker 3: 0:36

[inaudible]

Speaker 4: 0:37

hello friends. Welcome to another episode of the mind of snaps podcast. I'm really pumped. This is episode 19 I know that I've been inconsistent with this, but I don't really like doing anything half-assed and with all the other things I had going on for Guardian con and whatnot, I kind of took a great long break from a lot of things, but we're getting back into the swing of things now. I've got some upcoming podcast episodes scheduled as well, so I'm excited for this one and now as I'm thinking, I don't know if I said episode 18 or 19 hmm. Well, this one is episode 19 and I'm excited because I'm going to be speaking today with another content creator that goes by the name heathered effect online. So Heather was recently involved in a pretty big controversy, well not even, it shouldn't be. Basically she was having a conversation on her twitch stream and she had a child that needed to be fed. So she found that child people got very upset because she was breastfeeding on stream. I think it's super silly that anyone would shame a mother trying to feed their child. And when I saw some of the responses that people are sending her way, I knew that I wanted to interview her and have an honest discussion about this to make it think a little bit more clear, not just like what my stance is, but why she did it as well. So people can stop with the nonsense. People were very rude and aggressive over her feeding her child on stream and it was honestly disgusting. So we're going to be talking to her shortly and uh, I just want to remind you all of that. I have some great new stuff on the Patrion. If you want to check that out, it's patrion.com/ she's naps. I have some new stuff on the youtube and with the end game clothing drop coming up today, I will be, um, by the time this airs, you know, it'll be a couple of days at least, but it's dropping and I will absolutely be launching a vlog about my kind of behind the scenes of the photo shoot for that. And uh, yeah, Twitter and Instagram, reminder of snaps and make sure you're following those as well. Anyway, enough about me. Let's get to our guest for today.

Speaker 3: 3:04

[inaudible]

Speaker 4: 3:04

okay. So now we have Heather here and I'm assuming that your name is Heather or else that would probably be just like a very creative kind of branding style for you. Yes, my name is Heather. Okay, great. So if you would like to just give a quick rundown of what you do, what your, what your platform is all about. I'd love to hear it.

Speaker 5: 3:24

Yeah. So, hi everybody. My name is Heather. I go by Heather defect online and I mainly do a SMR on youtube. I do it sometimes on twitch. Uh, the stuff that I live stream on twitch is usually either painting Amr or sometimes I'll just kind of have some hangout streams where I'll give my audience advice or just talk about life and things like that.

Speaker 4: 3:49

That's cool. That's cool. I like the advice streams. That's something I kind of, I guess it's not even recently anymore, but have been doing for the past couple of years. It's nice to be able to offer your perspective on what people are working on.

Speaker 5: 4:01

Yeah. What are particularly like about those? I feel like it gives me an opportunity to really get to know my audience a little better and it's really cool when you have collective thinking to solve an issue. Um, and the way that my audience is, we'll have people really weigh in and have some good advice because I don't know all the answers to everything. So it's really interesting to get a different perspective from somebody that's had a totally different life experiences than me.

Speaker 4: 4:26

Yeah. For Real. You know, that's one of the things, um, when people ask me why I feel I'm qualified to offer advice, I'm like, I'm not, I make it very clear. I tell people like, what you're getting here is my perspective based on everything that I've been through. And then you're also going to get the community weighing in and that's the best part. Like you were saying, having, having not just you saying like, here's my thoughts on this, but then however many people are in your chat that day, I think it's a great thing. I wish more people did this. I know. Yeah. Same. So what's interesting here, we have a lot of parallels here, which I didn't realize. Um, SMR is something I'm still not fully like aware of everything about it, so we'll probably talk about that a little bit today, but it's one of the things that kept popping up when they finally released the mindfulness tag. So I was like, great, this, this is like a form of mindfulness that makes sense. And I'm looking through all of your profiles and everything, and like my entire platform and community, everything is based on mental health, mindfulness, and just, you know, kind of realistic positivity. So I'm, I'm creeping through all of your stuff here as I'm getting ready for this, which is what I did after I first saw all of your stuff in my feed and was like, what is this? I need to go and yell at some people. This is ridiculous. So I already saw a bunch and I was like, oh, we have a lot in common here. It looks like you're just trying to be another positive voice in the world. And I love that. Yeah. I mean, that's what I was trying to do at least. I mean, like I looked at your Instagram, um, after I first found you and then I looked again today and just like kind of refreshing my memory as we're getting into it. And the photo of you with your child, like your most recent one is so fucking powerful. Like, Holy Shit. It is beautiful and strong and soft. Love it.

Speaker 5: 6:20

Yeah, I know. I'm, it's so crazy. Um, I did that series with Ah, this really great photographer and one of my friends that's a hairdresser and it was her concept. Like I met her, um, probably like seven months ago on a shoe. And I had my baby with me because she was even younger than, and you know, I have to feed her, stuff like that. And she messaged me later and was like, I want to do a series with you and your daughter and I have this like high fashion idea. And I had never taken any sorta like breastfeeding photos. And it's something that a lot of moms actually do just to kind of capture that moment to remember it like at this time in your life. And I was like, yes, I'm totally down to do this. So we shot them back in February and she had been trying to pitch them to different publications for a while. Like she talked to vogue and talked to some other, uh, people. And then finally she got in with this publication, she bangs, which is more of like a high fashion hair and things like that. Um, but they publish it. And then I was finally able to share the images cause you can't share until it gets published. It makes sense. And so it just, it's weird how the timing worked out, how all of the stuff was happening. And then I was able to share this when there was just so much buzz on my page around breastfeeding and stuff. I thought it was really cool how that worked out. But I love those photos too. I really want to get one of them printed out and just have it forever. I'm like, this is my, the most favorite photo I've ever taken in my life. They are so

Speaker 4: 7:45

cool. And like for people listening go to her Instagram, I'm going to have all of her links in the, in the bio of this or in the description for this episode and make sure that you like scan through because the first one is insane. And then when I realized there was a set, like I'm pretty sure this was one of those situations sitting on my couch late at night, like smoking a joint, like finishing things up. And I saw the first one and was like, oh my God. And then went to the next one. It was like, yes bitch, when's the next one? Oh my God, fuck, these are so good. And I'm just like, yes. Queening you from like I don't even know where you're at all even in Charleston from like across the country a little bit, but they're just, they're so great. And like, um, I was the photographer. I mean I guess technically still am. I just don't do anything like this. Um, for many years. And like the fact that you were able to take such beautiful strong photos, just straight up head on like that alone is hard to do and you are actually like nursing a child and wearing these boss outfits. Like these are gorgeous photos and your, your modeling like all of the other pictures you have very obvious testaments, you're modeling ability. But that right there to be sitting up kind of just straight like looking right at the camera in a few places. That is a hard thing for a lot of people to pull off. And you did it.

Speaker 5: 9:09

Oh, thank you so much. One of the things I struggle with a little bit is Instagram because, um, the part of being a content creator that I really like is feeling like I'm making a positive difference and influence with the content that I put out. And so sometimes I struggle because I feel like Instagram can just be so vain and especially the modeling jobs that I get are more around like sex appeal and things like that. So I try to empower myself in a different way. Like I'm a mom. That doesn't mean that I have to be like Betty Crocker in the kitchen. You know, like I can still own my sexiness and be proud of who I am. Uh, but I struggle with it sometimes because it does feel a little vain. So to do a set like this that really had some true meaning behind it and felt powerful just made me really happy. Um, compared to some of the other things that I've done.

Speaker 4: 10:02

Yeah. I mean, I, man, I can so relate. I love what I do. I love it so much, but I am so used to being on the other side of the camera and I'm totally fine being on camera now for stream and doing all the appearances and doing all that stuff. But I tell people all the time like, I wish that you all liked the random, should I post as much as you like photos of me because I would love to not post pictures of myself on my Instagram. I would love it. It's just not my favorite part of things. I like taking them, not necessarily being in them. I've had to really challenge myself with that, but I like, I like your Instagram though because you have a very nice mix. Like it's, you see the stuff that people only see on other people's feeds that give them that false idea of what life is. But then you also see the in between, you see the breastfeeding and you see the, you know, hair up in a bun with two kids and hanging out in the yard and hanging out with friends. So I feel like you're doing a great job of showing that. Like, Hey, this is part of my Gig, right? Being a model in bombs modeling, but at the same time, look, I have a life. Like I'm not always just perfect all the time.

Speaker 5: 11:13

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's definitely the struggle. And I've even fallen into that trap too, just seeing people on Instagram and being like, oh my gosh, like how do they always look so perfect? Or comparing myself to them and just starting to feel bad about myself. And I was like, man, why am I, why am I doing this to myself right now? Like, why, why do I consume content that actually makes me feel bad about myself? So I've tried to be better and easier on myself in that respect. And then also just be mindful of that when I create my own content, which I feel like it's just, I'm still learning about myself and who I'm going to be online. And it's a evolving process, I'd say. How long have you been doing the online thing? Um, I started streaming on twitch, uh, at the end of April. Um, and I actually started streaming because uh, one of my friends, I got this really great job that I got the opportunity to work from home. Um, but the team was global and nobody was really in my time zone and I'm a very collaborative type of person and so I was just feeling kind of lonely and I wanted to talk to people and I was used to working in an office because I came from a corporate setting where I had like people like in the cubes around me, it was like, you know, I had friends and stuff at work and so one of my friends is all big on all this stuff and I was telling him about my new job and everything and he was like, Oh, you should stream on twitch. Like it's really a great way to kind of build a community. And I know that you like doing things online because I had previously had like little youtube channels, like back when youtube first started, like I did like cell phone reviews and just see, I just always kind of liked creating things and then I stopped because I was in college and stuff and he was like, I know that like you would like doing this, you should give it a shot. So yeah, I just tried it and I really liked that community aspect and I started playing Fortnite, which on my Mac book where I'm terrible at four, nine and like you can't really play it on a laptop anyway. Um, and so my stream really more from there. And then I started doing a SMR actually in December, which is funny because my youtube channel is literally about to hit 100,000 subscribers and I haven't been doing it for a year. I've been doing twitch a lot longer. And it's just interesting how you kind of, you hit one thing that seems to resonate with people and it seems to grow a little more quickly, which is nice cause it helps you figure out what your focus is going to be, which can be a little difficult as a content creator when you just have so many ideas and want to do a million things at one holy shit. The amount of things I would be doing if I had like the budget to bank roll it. If I could delegate more. Yes, yes. And be like, okay you handle these things. I'm going to go create this. Like Jesus it is. It is a challenge or sure it really is. But I started doing SMR back in December again because somebody was like, Hey, I've seen your stream and I seen what you're about. And like I think I jokingly did a SMR or like made a joke about it one day and they were like, you have a really good whisper voice. I know you think this is weird that you don't understand DSLR blah blah blah, but just give it a chance. And I was like, no, what are these girls doing? Like what are these ears? This is so geared, like I'm not going to do that. It's like, no. And they were like, just watch it. So I try to, I pride myself on being open minded and trying to listen to all sides of the discussion, even if I don't agree with someone's opinion, which has kinda gotten me into a thing with that posts on Instagram because I didn't really block people. I let people freely express themselves because I hope that even if they post something that's a little ignorant, that someone will come in and chime in and help them understand. But anyway, everyone's not like that. But I try to be that way. So, um, I went and started searching Amr stuff on youtube and I found a video explaining what it was and then it clicks. Like, Oh my God, I've been experiencing a, or similar since I was a little kid. I didn't even know my name. And I just went down the rabbit hole and I was like, Oh my God, I love this. I know exactly what this is. I want to give this a try. Um, and my intention was just to do a SMR on twitch. I didn't really even intend to have a youtube channel. I just put that and I was looking like, you've really been killing it. Yeah. Like I just made my youtube channel just as like a test because I didn't want to like freak my audience out by doing, I guess some are in the meeting, like what is the, shouldn't I need to be good at it? So I did a video and then it performed really well. So I kept posting and then now I'm a melted 100,000 subscribers on youtube and it's like, Whoa, this is wasn't even by full intention, but here we are. Do you see what having an open mind brings you listeners? Do you see that you're like, really? And I, I

Speaker 4: 16:08

totally, I'm with you. We have a, uh, on the whole like not just blocking and banning people who say dumb shit. Um, like Ma, my name online is, she snaps right. At least on twitch. And there's a reason for that. I used to be a very angry person, so it was like a very appropriate name. Like she stamps, you're likely to see me get angry and if not then it was like a fun non to my photography. But it was only like in the past couple of years that I've gotten like really heavily invested in myself, my mental health, mindfulness, all that stuff. And self-compassion tends to lead to external compassion. So now like when people say Nasty Shit to me, people are genuinely surprised. I think by the way it's handled in my chat because I don't react. I'm not going to get angry. We're not going to roast them the way we used to. We market on our troll Bingo card, which is hilarious to me because it's usually predictable behavior and then we wish them, well, we say whatever it is you're going through. I'm sorry we're here for you. Like if you simply apologize like an adult, you are welcome to stick around. And I offer that apology regardless of what was said. Like I've had people say some really fucked up nasty shit to me. I mean, you're a woman online. I'm sure you've gotten it all and it's the same thing every time. Hey, I have boundaries. I don't let people talk to me like that so I won't allow you to stay in my channel and just keep saying nonsense. But if you would like to stick around, this is a great community. Whatever it is you've got going on, we'd love to help you. And surprisingly a lot of people have responded to that. We call them reformed trolls and they are some of my favorite people now, so I like that. You don't really like do the same thing with your Instagram stuff. You, you let

Speaker 5: 17:50

people get it out in hopes that someone else is going to kindly bring some love their way. Yeah. It's interesting because sometimes my mods will get onto me because depending on how someone messages me, like this one person sent me this long message that was really hateful on Instagram and I just looked at their page like, why are you so mad at me? What did I do to you? Like are you just like a general like woman hater or like what's going on here? And they had really nice post about their sister and their mom. So I knew that they weren't a woman hater. So I wrote them back and was like, listen, like I saw your message and I feel like you approached me in a very rude way and you don't have to talk to people that way. But I looked at your page and you don't seem like a general woman hater. So I just want to take this as an opportunity to hopefully change your mind about whatever you think about me and just women online in general. And I sent him a bunch of information and they ended up saying Blake, the root of their anger is because they have friends that stream on twitch that our guys and don't get a certain amount of viewers and they feel that it's unfair. But then they said, I'm taking out a lot of anger on you. I've never even watched your stream and I'm really sorry, like I shouldn't have done that. And it was nice. But then my mods are like, why do you even waste your time? And I'm like, I don't know. Maybe that guy won't actually ever messaged someone. Some hateful stuff. Like I've never felt good about myself being hateful or mean to somebody. You know what I mean? Like I've always felt really bad. Like these people don't feel good to be mean to be, they might convince themselves that somewhere they feel good about it or they feel vindicated or they feel like they're doing this and it's justified and it's right. Yeah. But I truly believe in you put that negativity out in the world. Like it does affect you on a level even if you don't realize it. So I don't know. I just, whenever I can, if I can try to be positive or change people's minds, I'll try to do that. And I do the same thing with trolls, have my chat, like I'll get messages that are kind of dumb and, or someone like making fun of me and just depending on what they say, sometimes they'll just laugh it off and like just like poke fun at myself. And a lot of the times that people stick around and they're like, hey, you're like your cool, or I've had people just stick around because I've let them have an opinion that varied from mine and didn't go all crazy. Just banning them and actually ask them questions to understand their perspective and not attacking them. And they've been like, Whoa, like I'm going to stick around because you are open-minded and you don't just ban people that don't agree with you on x, y, z. And I'm like, I just don't feel like being a dictator with your, the information that is going on in your channel is a very productive way to educate people. Or it's, it's like the, the literal definition of like an echo chamber if everyone's saying the same thing. So I think that, um, by allowing people to speak freely, as long as they're being respectful, you know, um, it's usually

Speaker 4: 20:49

so agreed. Yeah. We have a pretty basic rule in my chat. Oh yeah. We can talk about anything and everything. So our conversations very wildly, but the main thing is, is you just have to be respectful. Like whatever opinions you have, there's some kind of like basic rules, right? Like be respectful if you're gonna present something as facts, be prepared to come with receipts. Like we want citations, we want links. If you're going to present something as anything other than fact, make it clear that that's what you're doing in my opinion, in my experience, based on my feelings, whatever. And then I do not allow passive aggressive bullshit either. Cause that drives me crazy when people can't even respond to like your retort or your rebuttal or whatever it is that you're saying back. And instead they just like respond like lol. Okay. Like that isn't helping any of us. Like just tell me what you disagreed with or didn't like about my statement and we can keep this going. Passive aggressive aggression just like shuts this shit down. Doesn't get either of us anywhere. Yeah, no, totally. I A, I give this quote to everyone, but it's like my favorite thing ever. Alan Alda said, you're not really listening unless you're willing to be changed by the other person. And I think about that every fucking day.[inaudible].

Speaker 5: 22:02

Yeah, that's a good one. That's a good flight. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 22:06

Just like, why are you going into the conversation otherwise, like you just, you just want to say the same stuff at someone and have them not hear you. Like are you open to the possibility that you could be wrong or are you just hoping that they are on the same page as you still? Like you said, you can just echo each other's sentiments back at each other over and over again.

Speaker 5: 22:24

Yeah. Or it's an ego thing where they want to prove you wrong and change your mind because they believe that their opinion is the right one and that you the truth regardless of what facts their opinion of. Oh, for sure.

Speaker 4: 22:36

Real man. It's, it's cool though that you have kind of a similar mindset about this because like it took me a minute to get there for sure. And it really wasn't until I started getting way more invested in the mental health and mindfulness game that I was like, fuck, I can't call myself a mental health advocate and shit on people who come in here displaying clear signs of mental health. Not necessarily issues but needs. Right. Because people who go around flinging shit at others, they're not well-balanced, happy people, you know, work out in the morning, go hang out with family, meditate, journal, all that stuff. Like those aren't the people going in and slinging hate. The people who are doing like who are doing all those things for themselves. Like they are focused on moving their lives forward. They don't waste their energy trying to shit talk other people. So it kind of became clear like I can't just ignore these people cause this is kind of a different sort of like cry for help.

Speaker 5: 23:33

Yeah. No you're so true. I mean picture a happy person and like what they do or their day like do you think that they, they watch a youtube video and they're like, wow, I was really happy but this one chick said this. I just don't agree with. So I'm about to attack her in the comments section. Hey, you stupid fool. Like you're such a whore. Why don't you go kill yourself? You know? And it's like they're not doing that. Like these, the people that are doing these things are very like angry and they're, I'm assuming just have a lot of stuff going on. And I've asked multiple people like, why are there so many angry people that hate women on the Internet? Like what is Hap, I don't understand. Like so many people hate me apparently, but I've gotten messages rob and I'm like, you don't even know me. How do you have such a strong opinion about me? And you literally saw like a clip and a tweet about me and you've seen me paragraphs like with the meanest things that could be said about somebody and you don't like

Speaker 4: 24:37

normally deeply personal stuff too. Yeah, right? Oh yeah. Just weird shit. Yeah. You're probably the worst person in the world. I hope you never reproduce because you'd be a terrible mother. Like

Speaker 5: 24:48

weird shit. Like what? Yeah, yeah. From, like one day your kid is going to see this, how you exploited them and they're going to hate you and they're gonna wish that you weren't their mother and that's going to be, and rightfully so, you shouldn't have had any kids. You're so eras. And I'm like, Whoa, Whoa, whoa buddy. Like

Speaker 4: 25:08

well hopefully is, but you know what like clicked for me is it's what we represent, right? Like, you know, we were talking earlier about how it can be really hard to be on Instagram because everyone looks so perfect and it's very easy to start comparing yourself. And like after more time of kind of analyzing the posts that made me kind of feel bad. It was because I was not just looking at them and seeing like a perfectly put together house or whatever. There was a deeper meaning there. There was something that that image represented to me that I felt like I couldn't have or that I deserved. Like I would see, um, fellow content creator women with these like beautiful homes, with new streams, setups and everything is all nice and put together. And I find myself coveting it. And it took some like serious reflection to realize I wasn't looking at their exact set up saying I want that. I was seeing it and noticing that what it represented to me was stability, which is something I really wanted. So I felt this like almost intense dislike for them because they had this feeling that I wanted, they had the ability to be stable and by their own shit, you know? And then as I start thinking about it more, it's like fuck, I really don't know their situation. Like they could be hundreds of thousands of dollars in credit card debt right now just to make this perfect Instagram post. Yeah. And for us, like that's, that's the shit that gets directed at us. It's people seeing us not knowing us, but we represent something to them. So if it wasn't you, it would've been me. If it wasn't me, it would have been the next girl. Like whatever it that we represent in their minds is what is like hugging at them, making them feel like they have to make us feel the way they feel.

Speaker 5: 26:50

Yeah. I mean, one of the things that I hear a lot is that even through doing ASR or trying to be positive or whatever, that I'm taking advantage of lonely people or lonely guys on the Internet in particular. Um, and I don't know, like I try to think from their perspective, like maybe they are a lonely person and perhaps there was somebody that, I'm not going to say that everyone on the Internet has good intentions. Like there are bad people everywhere, online, offline, like your neighbor, you know, like there's bad people all over. So I don't know, I just try to, I've really tried to put myself in their shoes. Like what could they have possibly experienced? Like perhaps they were rejected by somebody that really gave them some anger or they've felt like they've fell for some girl online that maybe didn't have good intentions or I don't know. Like I don't, I don't know. I don't know where all the negativity comes from. But I mean, like you were saying as a female content creator, like you get attacked on that a lot. You know, just like, it's so weird how you just like, you're a girl online on twitch or even on youtube and someone's gonna call you a thought. You're just a thought. You're just some dumb thought it like they don't even, it's just like, uh, all the time, but didn't, the retort is like, okay, and so, which is not really better. You know what I mean? It's just like throwing names around and it's like, we don't know either way, you know, it's just, I don't know what the solution is. Like I just wish there weren't so many angry people, you know, it was like, please don't be so bad and they'll take your anger out on me. Like I didn't do anything.

Speaker 4: 28:42

I mean, on the bright side, it sounds like you have a good mindset and you've kind of guarded yourself against it. And that's like what I'm very grateful for. Cause people have said such heinous shit and at this point now I know that I can hear it and just be like, wow, I feel for you. Like I have been an angry, like very miserable person. And as bad as I got like internally and as bad as I may have treated the people who I felt deserved it. Like I never bullied anyone or like went out of my way to make someone feel bad. But I was always walking around with this like simmering anger. Just hoping someone would try me so that I can just tear them apart. So like I can relate to how easy it is to be a shitty person and how satisfying it can feel to lash out at someone. Interesting. So like when I see someone who is being so nasty, like out of nowhere, seemingly out of nowhere to someone else, I start thinking like you did. Like what is your background? Cause like I know I've been through some shit. I'm very grateful for my existence. I think I've had an easy life compared to so many people. But like with all this stuff I've been through, never did I ever feel like that. Like I would want to say something that horrific to someone without any kind of provocation. What must your experience have been like? Yeah. Like how bad was it? Were you raised around people who were just really mean and nasty and, Oh man, I was just talking to a friend in chat. She's actually going to be writing an article about this for my website. Um, there's these things called aces now. Oh, I wish I could remember what it stood for. But it's basically, there's kind of a measure that shows based on trauma that happened before the age of 18, how much more likely you are to be violent, be aggressive, be depressed, um, engage in risky behaviors, potentially self harm, et Cetera, et cetera. So like a lot of the people who are the worst off or ones who have had childhood trauma, what's really sad. It is. And that's, man, that's what's heartbreaking. Like my, my brother and I, we talk about stuff like this a lot because we both kind of battled our anger for a long time. And there was one, one person in particular who tried to troll in like one of the meanest ways I could think. Um, when I first started on twitch I was very hush hush about my private life and I had an older sister who I was very close with who passed away 11 years ago. I like straight up refuse to talk about her. I was scared to ever say her name on stream or mention that I had lost her because you know how people are like they will latch on to anything to hurt you if they feel entitled or if they feel vindicated in that. So I, I just did not bring her up and then you know, over time started getting into this like being very open and vulnerable thing and now I talk about everything. So one day I was talking about my sister and it was kind of a quiet chat day and someone came in and they made a comment, your chat is dead. And like chat was actually pretty active. So it was kinda silly. Um, and I just kind of ignored it and let it pass. Continued talking about what I was talking about. And the next comment came, your stream is dead like your sister and I. Years ago that would have broken me. Like I would've spent the rest of the day crying. I would have spent the rest of the week angry, upset, sad, mixed, mixed feelings, you know. But all I could feel in that moment was just this overwhelming sense of pity. Like, Holy Fuck, what could you have experienced that made you think that was an okay thing to say? And I remember telling my brother about it, he came over to my house later that day and he was in my kitchen, like facing the counter facing away from me doing something. And like we both had really bad anger. So I didn't know if he was gonna react aggressively or if he was going to kind of feel the same way I did. I think eventually I thought he would be on the same page as me, but I told him the same thing. I was like, listen to this thing this person said today and like he was doing something like maybe going through mail or something and he just stopped like his hands dropped, his head dropped and he was just like, what most their experience have been like. I'm like, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, Oh fuck. We have been people that we are not proud of ourselves. We're being, and at no point would I have ever crossed that line like how fucked up has has their life been? It makes you really feel bad.

Speaker 5: 33:21

Yeah. Oh Man. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 33:26

Being a woman on the Internet, it's a whole fucking thing and I'm glad that we have the opportunity to talk about this a lot because there's so many people who don't realize just how much abuse we get and how much like targeted, personalized, creepy, threatening abuse we get.

Speaker 5: 33:43

Yeah. I mean by, um, I had been doing things like various things online prior to doing twitch, but when I started joining twitch, it was an entirely different experience. Like I had never really had any experiences with toxic people like that. Um, and it was just kind of a deep dive into what people online can be like. And so when I first started doing twitch, I was very, um, the things that people would say would really affects me. And I thought, I really thought I was in a good place with everything because it would had been months of like, people just say things like, um, obviously having a lot of great people, but like the people that come in and just try to troll you or whatever. Um, and then when this whole thing happened with the breastfeeding and having literally like hundreds, maybe thousands of people speak out negatively against me, I would be lying if I said that. That didn't affect me at all. I have never been in a situation where I had so many people, uh, coming after me like that and it the first day, um, when no one really was seeing anything positive, I was just like, oh my God. Like I thought I can't ever stream again. Like I've made so many people angry. I can't believe that this like people care that much, you know? Um, and I got so many negative messages and it was my daughter's like first birthday party that weekend and I was just so distracted and not in the moment. And I feel so stupid that I let that stuff get to be because who are these people online? They don't know me and I shouldn't have liked them. Affected me, like affect me on that level where they kind of took away from some of my real life experiences. Like that's my last baby and that was her first birthday and things like that. But it's just, it's hard like when people, this whole like cancel culture and like people just chiming in on things they have no idea and like tearing you down and it done on a massive scale. Like it can be done on social media. Yeah. It's just, ah, it's a hard, like I really feel for people that even if it's kind of done in right, like they've actually did make a mistake and people are attacking them. People that just have to go through this experience of being like massively attacked by so many people, like a mob of people. Even if they did something wrong, I just feel bad for them because, God, that sucks. It's like, it sucks. It's so bad. It's

Speaker 4: 36:28

worst thing ever to go through that. I really, man, I have a story about that I'll share with you later cause I, I don't know if it got to the point where your posts did. Um, but I, I had another issue with cancel culture years ago and it really is a scary thing. So for, for the listeners, let's backtrack a tiny bit here. So the reason like we kind of connected was because your feed or your posts or no, the clip showed up in my feed and I saw a ton of women like people from like people who I, I kind of liked and respected and stuff, you know, just really laying into you over this. So I watched the clip and it's a clip of you on stream having a conversation with one of your friends and apparently your baby was hungry, you decided to feed her. So you started breastfeeding on stream in like girl, let me tell you, I had to rewatch that video twice because I forgot what I was watching it for because I was like, oh her hair is so pretty with that microphone. Like did not even notice that there was a baby feeding. It just felt so normal to me. So when I kind of rewatched it and I was like, oh she was fading kit and people are upset because they saw like a peak of a nip, what the fuck? So then I started reading through the comments and I was just like mortified for you. Like I had no idea who you were. Like I had never seen any of your stuff. Like we just hadn't crossed paths before then. But I'm reading through these comments and I'm expecting it to be primarily men, not understanding how breastfeeding works, not understanding how special of a bond that is, but also how just totally normal it is to have to feed your kid. And when I saw the amount of women insulting you and tearing you down, like I was broken hearted, I, I'm pretty sure I called my boyfriend over and was like, this is so upsetting. These are so many women that I really liked because they're constantly standing up for other women and here's a prime opportunity when they should be doing

Speaker 5: 38:36

that and they're not doing it. Like what the fuck? So it really made me feel bad. That's why I wound up reaching out like this is a mess, dude. You do not deserve this.

Speaker 3: 38:47

Oh yeah. That was I, I,

Speaker 5: 38:52

when the guys were trimming in, I was like, okay, they're just coming from a area where they don't understand. They're never going to have to breastfeed a child. They don't know, a lot of these people probably don't have kids, Yada Yada Yada. But then when women that I know have experienced things online where also chiming in and agreeing with some of the things guys are saying that was just really missing informs. I was like, why wait? Yeah, that was really shocking and I just couldn't believe it. Especially some of the people that chimed in with certain things like I don't want to call anybody out in particular or you know, are you there? Their argument based on their own content and Ernie or anything like that. But there were some people where it just felt a little hypocritical to when they were, when they said to me and me being like, who? Who is this person? And just looking and then seeing their own content and I'm like, wait, what? What? Yeah, like this was so innocent. And if we're going to talk about people like skirting the rules or be closest they can to breaking the rules for Xyz reason. I mean really like you should've just not said anything. It would've been hard not to chime in at all, you know? But just sat there and ate your food. Yeah. But instead you took this as an opportunity, like, wow, let me show all of these guys that respect me on my stream that like I'm against this moms. It's not not not on my twitch platform, you know? Right. Yeah. I don't know what happened with that, but that was definitely one of the more like major things. I mean, cause it's the same, there were girls that I kind of like considered my friends that were streamers that I have talked to and they were trimming in against me and I was like, wait, what? I thought we were friends. Like that is heartbreak. Yeah. So, but it's fine because what did happen is, well first of all, like twitch came out and was like, you know, breastfeeding's not a big deal, which was really great. Uh, but I also made some good connections and I would say new friends from this people that did stick up for me. Um, and that was really nice. So it did give me the opportunity to meet some people that I think I wouldn't have other wise met. Like, even, you know, for example. So I think that that's really cool. So I'm just trying to have focus on the positive things that were salted from it. Um, but yeah, there were a few days in the beginning where there was just so much negativity where I was just like, oh my God, I thought about deleting the tweet multiple times. The only reason I even tweeted it out is because twitch just doesn't email me back half the time. It's just so hard sometimes to get in touch with them and everyone's like, we are a partner, don't you have a contact? And I'm like, no, they didn't just like give me somebody's email. I don't know if that happens for some people or like when you're out at a certain point like, but it didn't happen for me. And so I just wanted an explanation cause I didn't think it was that big of a deal. And then, you know, I saw like the clip was posted on reddit and some of the things that people were saying and I was like, dude, this is so not a big deal. But people were acting like animals and I was like, this is not okay. So I tweeted out about it and then it just blew up. But you know, honestly because it was already on Reddit, I think it would have been blown up anyway, even if I didn't cheat about it cause it had already at that point really gone viral, you know? So reddit runs with shit godly.

Speaker 4: 42:30

Yeah. I man, I was having the same thoughts as you as I was scrolling through and thinking like, man, I like, I always want to support women. Like if you have sexualized content, if you don't, whatever, like do whichever you do, whatever makes you happy. Whatever you want to do, provided you're not hurting anyone else. Right? Yeah, exactly. And like this is not fucking hurting anyone else. So I was so surprised when some of the women that do provide that sexualized content, we're, we're not just like kindly saying like, well, tos, whatever, but we're kind of being shitty about it. It made me feel really bad. Like, fuck dude, that's not cool. Why? Like that's, that's a baby. Yeah. So for, for our lovely listeners here who I'm grateful the community has such a wonderful open mind, let's just run through that day when you were streaming and your baby got hungry.

Speaker 5: 43:26

Okay. So, um, basically what happened is pri prior to ever breastfeeding on stream, I did think about it because I had a baby and I had been streaming and I had been grinding. I wanted to get partner. Um, and uh, I had her and I was like, Gosh, what am I going to do? I've spent so many months like building up my community, but I didn't really want to press you on the street. I'm like, I'm not, I wasn't trying to breastfeed all the time. I didn't know of something like this, what happened. But I looked at the terms of service like multiple times and I felt like I would be in my right to do that if I wanted to. And um, but I just made the call like, no, it's not worth it to me. I'm not really a confrontational person. I try to put out positive things on the Internet and I just didn't want to get into a fight with people. It just didn't, at the time it was not worth it to me. So I was like, no, I'm like, I'm not, because I would have to, I would have had to do it all the time and it just wasn't something I was interested in doing. So then she finally started sleeping through the night and I was like, okay, I'm going to start streaming again at night when she's sleeping. So that's what I did for months. I started. So I took like three or four months off from streaming, which completely killed my community. And so since January I've basically been rebuilding it. Um, and then I had been planning recently to do a charity stream cause I hit one year streaming and I wanted to do it with something that I believed in. Um, and I just had a bunch of things happening this summer, like travel and various things that, that, that was going on for other things. So, um, I knew that world breastfeeding week was coming up and I like save the children and they have efforts dedicated to breastfeeding. And so I thought about doing a charity like fundraiser type of thing for them. But then I knew, hey, if I do this, it probably be a long stream. Like usually when you do a charity stream, he tried to do like 12 hours or something long. That's more of like a push to like, hey, let's stream as long as we can to like raise money for the charity. And then I was like, Oh God, but then I have to breastfeed and it just kind of stressed me out a little bit. But I was like, this is a onetime thing. Like it wouldn't be that big of a deal. I'll just, I'll think about it. I don't know. I'll talk to my husband about it. Like, I don't know, I was still like in the process of thinking if, if I still, if I wanted to do this. Um, and then my friend happened to be coming into town and prior to her appearing on my stream, I had been talking about her a lot and uh, going to the casting for sports illustrated in Miami and she's in Miami and I stayed with her. And so my audience was familiar with her. They were familiar with sports illustrated casting and she got further along in the process than I did. So, um, my, my stream actually helped fond like my plane ticket to go. They were very supportive, like, you should do this, you want to do this, like chase your dreams sort of thing. So, um, I just thought it would be a really good opportunity to have her on stream. And since I knew what would be a daytime thing, I was like, okay, I had already thought about potentially having to breastfeed during this charity thing that I want to do and maybe this would be a good opportunity to, to see like if my community would find this kind of weird, you know, um, and if they would feel as passionate, I guess about this as I do. And it would be a charity that they would want to support. So I didn't even like, I think a lot of people are saying like, oh you did this, like to normalize breastfeeding, which I can explain hold that whole how that whole thing happened in the meantime or after I say this. But um, yeah, it was really just, I didn't think about it too much. Like I know just me explaining, it sounds like there's a lot of like long drawn out thought process, but you're like your thoughts happen so quickly. It was literally just like, I thought like this, this, this. Yeah, it seems okay and that was it. You know what I mean? Like it wasn't like I spent all this like time and energy and to thinking about doing this or what would happen or anything. Like I thought about it after I had the baby, it was like, Nah. And then I didn't really think about it again. I thought about the charity stream and I was like, ah, I don't know, maybe. And then this opportunity came and I was like, I really want to have her on my stream. But I'm going to have to feed the baby. Like she's teaching right now. She's nursing like every hour and I don't have an option to put her somewhere else. You know what I mean? And this is the time period that my friend was available to do this interview. So it was like, okay, I, it's, I didn't even think it was against tos. That wasn't even my issue really. Like it was just more of like, I didn't want to make people in my community feel weird. Um, that was my main concern is like, I just didn't really want them to like freak out about it. And then like, I don't know, and be like, oh my God, I'm not gonna like watch you anymore and make them feel weird or anything like that. But also when you are a positive person online, your community's pretty positive. So yeah, I didn't have a lot of doubts that they would like that they would be super weird about it or not support me. But you know, there's always like, there's always a troll that comes in and says something weird or creepy and you know, so I did think about those things, but I was like, overall I think this is going to be fine. Not a big deal. You know, like, I don't know. Whoa, I was really wrong. So my friend came over and yeah, we're just talking about sports illustrated and her being a model and her experience and Miami. Um, and we're having a really good discussion. I feed my baby, she's like on and off both of my breasts, like throughout the whole thing, just because that's just how she is. Like, I don't, ah, I can't really explain to people unless you have a child, like it's going to be very hard for me to be like, this is what babies do sometimes. Like babies breastfeed for nourishment, babies also breastfeed for comfort. It's like kind of what they do. And I had a lactation consultant actually come on my stream yesterday for an interview just to kind of educate people on so many things that they didn't know. So I think that that went well. I mean, I did get messages from people like, Whoa, you, you helped me learn so much about like breastfeeding. I had no idea. Um, but yeah, so that's what happened. And then basically somebody clipped, one of the things, posted it to read it as normalize breastfeeding as a positive thing. It was um, the streamer Tom and they titled it normalizing breastfeeding and then that's when people just started going crazy about it on reddit. And then twitch deleted all of the clips from the bod. Not just that one but all of the clips. And that was weird. I was like, but they weren't all breastfeeding. Like some of them were just clips of my friend saying something or whatever. It was just indiscriminate clothing. It was just like they mass deleted everything from the VOD that day and then the next day. But after they did it the first time I was like, this is weird. And since the clipless titled Normalize Breastfeeding, um, Tom had posted it on Twitter and I just like retweeted it with like a heart and a little like baby feeding Emoji. Cause I still at this point like I was like this isn't, I didn't realize it was a big deal. I was just oblivious I guess. And then it got deleted and then someone sent me the reddit thing like, Yo, you're on live stream fails. And I was like, what the hell is live stream fails? You know? And then I go look at it. I was like what in that f like people saying like it's equivalent to porn and all this disgusting. I was like, I'm going to check off on stream. I'm like, Bro, no one wants to see that. Like please. And I guess to their point they were like, no one wants to see you breastfeeding. But like it's not even the same. Like you can't do this in public. Everyone like is bringing up these things. It's like, but you can breast feed illegally in public everywhere. You can't urinate publicly without getting in trouble. You can take like you can't poop on the side of the road. You're like, oh, like masturbate publicly like these. Like it's not the same thing. So no, and the fact that it was being compared to like defamation or screaming waist of any kind, just obnoxious and silly. Yeah. So if you had been on stream bottle feeding your kid, you would have gotten clipped and people would have been shit talking you for not breastfeeding. Oh yeah, there's really no fucking winning here. But you are doing like a natural healthy thing for your child. And people immediately came to conclusions and that's why I was asking you like let's run through the day real quick because it's clear you had some reservations but you also knew that this is just a normal part of your life with your child. Yeah. So I talked about this on stream after I had commented on your stuff and told people like we were going to, I was going to have you on the podcast and everything and the comments I got were very similar. A lot of them, at least to the ones that you got, this was for attention. You did this to exploit your baby. Like, obviously you know what she's doing and like the, the dumb commentary, the baby didn't even want to eat. That's why she was looking around like, do you know how this works? Yeah. It's like, okay, so I, all of those things. So people that keep telling me like, you did this for attention to exploit your baby. I've asked them, I'm like, okay, let's just say that you somehow know my intentions better than me. That you're somehow in my head and you know exactly what my intents were. My intentions were, can you please tell me why I didn't do this a year ago when I had my baby, where I could have been exploiting my child for a year now for all of this rest, seeding cloud, all of this cloud money and abuse that you guys think I'm getting from doing this. Like why didn't I do it then? Like why haven't I been doing this for months now? Yeah. And everyone's like, well, I don't know. I don't know why you do the things you do. And I'm like, but what you just said that you did, like you said. Yeah. So like what is it like please tell me like I could have, I could have been rightfully breastfeeding my daughter this entire time on stream. And again, I feel like that's my right to do that and it's nobody's business and if you don't like it, you don't have to watch. That's all it takes. It's not a, it's not against tos. So at that point you don't like it. You just leave. Yeah. And it's somewhere else. And if some female content creator chooses to do that, like I will totally support them. It just wasn't something I was particularly interested in doing. And the only time I really breastfeed my daughter on Shareem is if I have, if I need to stream during the day for whatever reason. But I'm in a situation where I can stream at night and I just prefer to stream without my child. Like it's easier for me to do the content focus. Yeah. But like she, you, okay. Like the lactation consultant, I went through some of the things that people were saying to me because I'm like, she's a professional, she can address all these things. And I went through like, can you force a baby to breastfeed? And she's like, absolutely not. Like you can't force a baby to breastfeed. Like they're not gonna Latch, which she did and she did feed if they're not hungry, but she's looking around because she's almost one, she's like curious to like look at things like she sees a light, she sees us, she sees that like she's gonna look around like that's what babies do, you know? And everyone being like, well what, you could have a cover, you could do this. Like I was doing an interview so I can't really just like turn my camera off during the interview. You know what I mean? Like it's, I guess I could, but again like why sh why if I was bottle-feeding it wouldn't have been a big deal. Like no one would have been like, oh you need to turn your camera off. And as far as like covering her up and all this stuff, like if I'm in Charleston like it is hot, babies get hot. Like imagine eating soup under a cover next to a heater. Okay. Right. That's what it's like for a baby that's breastfeeding. But beyond that, like she's, she's one now she pulls covers off like she flops them around, she plays with them. You still would've seen everything. Like it's not gonna. If anything it's going to draw more attention to a baby flapping a huge piece of fabric around so you can see like what's going on. I don't know. It's just like there's just so many things that people are trying to like look into and Parse my words. Or like if I talk to like one media outlet and they just took a very small portion of a quote and they're trying to parse that into being like, look, you were just doing this for all the publicity and everything and it's just, I mean, I didn't really think it was going to be that big of a deal, but also at the end of the day, even if I did like this, even let's just say I did it for the publicity and everything and whatever, clout or whatever, people are saying like it doesn't change the fact that this is allowed on twitch and it was an issue because there was some something that happened and it didn't seem like it was against terms of service and I was just getting, trying to get clarification that this was okay to do, you know? And I hashtagged it normalize breastfeeding and the post is, because that's what the clip was titled. You know, like it wouldn't because the clip that was named by somebody else was normalizing breastfeeding on twitch got deleted and it had so many views, it would have been a good movement at least even if you didn't agree with it, like you would have been like normalizing breastfeeding and well what is that? Even if you hated it and maybe you go look up and see what it is and see that this is a struggle that a lot of women have. Um, but no, that it was gone and then people were just like, oh, you're trying to like hide behind a movement and body, Blah Blah. And I was like, I never really said that I set out with the intention to have this like big movement for normalizing breastfeeding. It just kind of turned into that and there's nothing really like to have you hold your guns or whatever the phrases on something. Whenever you're backed into a corner and people are attacking you and then you feel like you have to fight for something because I'm so not confrontational. I don't try to talk about anything that's really controversial. Like there's enough people that do that sort of content. And I just, I want to be about positivity. Like I t I'll, I'll talk about confrontational things sometimes, but typically I don't really reveal my stance on things because I just try to foster communication and I think that I could swipe people in a certain direction or turn people off from having a conversation by voicing my opinions on things, which I know people share different opinions on, like using your influence or whatever for good. But I don't know, I just try to foster communication for the most part in conversations. So yeah, like I, I'm trying to remember exactly what I was going with that, but, um, I just, I don't know. Like I didn't think it was going to be that big of a deal when I did it, but I was totally, I mean, yeah.

Speaker 4: 58:00

Yeah, rock kind of blew up. I was really grateful to see that combination was the one who was like responding to almost every comment. Like, look, this is totally normal. And if you're trying to say, men can't even show nips on stream like you're wrong because we can, it's all about context. If it's a non-sexual context, nips are okay. That is very fucking clearly a non-sexual context. You are feeding your child. What grossed me out was someone who was like arguing about it, what? And went through your Instagram and they were like, she's even trying to do sexy poses while she's breastfeeding on there. And I went and looked and I was like, what the fuck? Just just any attractive woman. Is that, is that no doing a sexy pose? Like what? No, that's the thing. Like some bombs, Oh, I'm

Speaker 5: 58:49

commenting on one. And she was like, you're trying to be so overly sexy while breastfeeding. It's sickening or something. And I was like, I just was like, I'm not, I just what? Like I'm like bitch, that's just my face. And then this is a thing. And that's so some things that people were telling me, which I hope this isn't come out the wrong way, but they were like, you know, I feel like you would have gotten more support from people if you weren't an attractive person trying to do this because people are just making so many assumptions. Like there, look at this attractive streamer like that has a large chest and she's trying to show this off and blah, Blah Blah and everything can just fit their narrative. They can like show these photos where they're like, oh look, like she's trying to show her body off because she's a model. So this is has to be, you know, why she's doing this this way. And if I was just, you know, like an unattractive, didn't care about my appearance or whatever, whatever, you know, the different type of streamer, I suppose that people would've been like, yeah, what do you guys say? Like this isn't a big deal. Like let her feed her baby.

Speaker 4: 59:55

Yeah. It was just that upset over like here's a very attractive, very well put together woman who was also breastfeeding. Therefore she's a slut and she's doing it for attention. She's trying to be sexy. How disgusting. When someone told me that thing like go look at her Instagram though, she takes sexy pictures with like while she's breastfeeding. I went and looked and I was like, Bro, what? Yeah. Are you kidding me? No, that's like, that's just an attractive person who has modeling experience. Like that's it. It's the same thing like any, any mom would be doing in that same moment. Like let me just find an angle that doesn't make you look like a monster. Exactly. Like let's not have emotions and this one lady. Yeah, like that's, that's not, that's not about being sexy. That's about flattering. Like, yeah, we all do the same thing. I'm trying not to have the quad shit and I'm trying to like, you know, suck in a little bit. Like, yeah, it's not, we're posting a picture and the same thing. I would try to not look horrific leaves.

Speaker 5: 1:00:52

I mean like it's one thing if I'm like, have a picture of me like breastfeeding my child and I'm like biting my finger in the captions, like Yummy one milk. Like, okay. Yeah. Why brow that one? That's pretty much not okay. It's just like me being like happy mother's Day, loving these snuggles with buy baby blah blah blah, blah, blah. That was the first, that was the first like negative backlash I ever got with anything. Breasting cause I'd never posted anything breastfeeding before and it was mother's Day and I was like, this is my last baby. Like I'm so hot. Like I'm so proud. Like I'm going to share this as a mother's day posts. And I had guys like slide into my dms like, oh yeah, not OK with that leg. Uh, your other content is fine, but doing something like this, like it just really like pushes the line for me. And I was like, Bro, those, sorry. So like, okay, hold on, you're OK with like me and lingerie and me and bikinis and letting my boobs basically all being out like no big deal. But there's a baby there and that like really crosses the line for you.

Speaker 4: 1:01:53

That's when they get upset. Listen, this kid is infringing on what I would like to continue to Ogle I, I'm upset. Please stop.

Speaker 5: 1:02:00

It's like that baby's in the way of what I really want to look at. So I feel offended or maybe they weren't breastfed and they're just like, really not about that. I don't know, but

Speaker 4: 1:02:11

maybe that's what it is. Mom, you're never breastfed me. Yeah. Oh Man. It's so funny. You know. So we talked about this on stream and this falls in line with so many other things where I'm like, you don't even know what it's like to be a woman online and for women online. Some of them, they don't quite know what it feels like to be a woman online who has like a certain type of brand associated with her because either either sign that you're on, like I have been labeled as a tomboy for the longest time, so if I wear anything revealing or whatever, then I'll get those angry dms from random dudes. Like I lost a lot of respect for you. Now you're trying to be too sexy and it's like, dude, I was wearing shorts and a tank top. It's hot as balls outside, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So like there's no winning, but we were talking about it because, um, this got us on like the whole nipple discussion, right? Nipples are not sexual. And for the record, we're gonna make this very fucking clear again, breasts are not sex organs. Let's just, one more time. Breasts are not sex organs. Okay. They have a purpose that is to feed babies because we happened to find out that you know teddy stuff feels good, does not mean that they are sex organs. They are not genitalia, they are just a normal part of our anatomy. Our bodies are not inherently sexual unless we are in some kind of consenting sexual experience or pose or whatever. Like if we are very clearly making it sexual, if we are clearly consenting in a sex act, totally different. But we're just talking about a nip that was being used for a baby, right? So this got us on the whole like free the nipple conversation and everything and like I am all for that. It doesn't mean I necessarily want to see everyone's Nipples, but like I want people to have the right to feel comfortable in their skin and we started talking like I, I am so tired of bras. I'm so tired of them. And like when I'm home I, I am not wearing one. Like if I don't have shit to do, especially in depending on what I'm wearing, if I'm going out in the world like I'm not wearing a bra if they're uncomfortable and they're expensive so I'm spending a buttload of money for high quality fucking torture devices, you know like fuck that. So I told people like I would love to be able to go Braulio forever to just wear bra lads and like bandos and like those really nice cozy ones. If I felt that it was necessary but it would be so nice if I could comfortably stream and people could see an outline of a t and not think that it means they have the right to comment on it. Yeah. Cause that's the line. Like I would love it but it's so weird that as soon as people can see more of your body they believe that that means you are asking for comments on it.

Speaker 5: 1:05:02

Yeah, that's very true. You post a photo, like I model lingerie for a company. I post photos on my account because it's part of what I do for them. And then people feel like, oh, you posted this through me, this is for me. So I'm going to comment on everything that has to do with your body or tell, tell you how I feel about your body. And it's like, Bro, I'm just trying to sell some lingerie, like rough, you know, like this isn't, I don't know, like, yeah, I think you already know the body looks good. That's why you're modeling the fucking laundry. Yeah. No, I totally

Speaker 4: 1:05:35

people to come in and tell you like, girl, you look so good. I would eat that up.

Speaker 5: 1:05:39

Yeah, fuck off. Yeah. It's like, okay, well yeah, no, never, please stop talking to me. You know, like I asked my husband this too. Um, about, um, like other cultures where women are topless all the time or where it's more accepting to be topless. Like are breasts view differently? You know, cause I don't know, like I'm sure there are some cultures where, you know, like you, I mean you've even seen on like national geographic where like the lady is just like, I'll have a quick reference like no shirts on and stuff like that. But you know, I wonder if that's the same thing where like people are exposed like that. Um, is our breasts just like a norm? Like do they view it the same way as a guy? I have no idea. That was one of the things that we were talking about because um, he was saying how, you know, like breasts are so sexual blah blah blah cause we were having a co like when this blew up and I was like why I don't understand. And so we were just trying to, you know, play like devil's advocate and try to understand like why people were getting so upset about this. And it wasn't something that we had an answer for. And so this is probably not, I'm just like, hey guys that are listening. Maybe somebody that can do some googling and find out. But yeah, I was like, I would think just my brain is telling me that the more you're exposed to something, the more you get desensitized to it. And there are other cultures that things are heavily sexualized or a woman's entire body is sexualized because they have to cover their entire body. So you see a flash of an ankle and it's like, oh my God, that's the sexual where you show your ankle in America and it's just not a big deal. So my gut tells me that with something like free the nipple or whatever, if it was something that was just always around and not any like special thing, like bill's Gaff, like some people would still sexualize it because some people sexualize anything like your feet or whatever. But yeah, it would be less, it would be less sexual because it was just always there. You get desensitized to it, you know?

Speaker 4: 1:07:42

Yup. Yeah, dude, it's uh, it's so gross though. I'm, I'm so glad that that we have people like you who did take that kind of jump. Like you said you, you weren't expecting it to go where it did, but you certainly knew that there were going to be some people who saw you doing something normal and natural and decided to be gross about it. And that is like the exact reason why as much as I want to be that person and be like, look, the body is not inherently sexual. Like I'm gonna wear whatever I'm comfortable in. I am just not at the point where I'm ready to deal with that shit day in and day out. Like I don't even wear some of the shirts in my closet that like have too much cleavage because it bums me out knowing that like my main goal is to try and help people and some of the people that need my help the most might be scrolling past, see a quarter inch of cleavage and be like fuck this slut. I'm not going to follow her or unfollow or just whatever and just keep moving, you know? So I'm like fuck, I have no choice. I feel, which obviously we all do, but I feel sometimes like I don't have a choice. If I embraced certain parts of me, which are totally normal and natural, I'm missing out on an opportunity to influence people who need that extra positive voice in their life. But I would, I would love to be able to be more comfortable to not have to wear bras and not have people think that me not wearing it means that I want them to tell me what they think of my titties. Like let me show you this dude. I'm sending you a thing in our little group chat, I posted that picture. It's like a, like a workout top[inaudible] and like I was cozy as fuck. I'm feeling Kinda good. Took a picture and I'm like, oh, I kinda liked the way that my arm looks in this picture, like of all the obscure things to notice. I'm like, oh, I kinda like my arms look toned, kind of buff. So I'm like, I'm feeling good. I post the picture, no thoughts of the fact that I'm not wearing a bra in it. Oh my God. I'm looking at so many rows, comments and I got dms from people. Like one of them was a longtime member of my community, reached out and said, yeah, I'm so glad we finally get to see the tip. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? I responded and I was like, this is really disappointing to get from you. Oh, I did not post this to get comments on my body. I posted it just because I felt good in it. Like I would not post any pictures on Instagram. Like I said earlier, if I could avoid it. But if it's part of the Gig, it's part of the Gig. I'm going to try to post ones that I find flattering that I like myself in. And in that particular picture I was like, Hair's looking good. Skin's pretty clear. Yeah, I like the way my arm looks like, you know, that was what I was thinking and all people could focus on is that you could see part of an outline of a city.

Speaker 5: 1:10:34

Oh, I mean, okay. So if we think about like our nature, who we are like as a species and just animals in general, like yeah, we're all trying to make ourselves look attractive to attract a mate to procreate. I'm talking about on a nature level, like no, not, obviously everyone doesn't make these decisions but to procreate care, I wake up in the morning and put on makeup like God I Hope I get to procreate and to you know, have sex to procreate, to carrier genes on to have a child that survived into adulthood that can carry your jeans on like that from a biological standpoint is kind of your purpose. Like your animalistic purpose. Like of course we are also humans with free will and we do whatever we want. Some people don't have kids, whatever, but I'm just saying like those are definitely driving forces in our nature. So yeah, like we do things, some of us to appear more attractive to feel good about ourselves and is kind of coming from this animal side I suppose of, you know, like what our purpose is and that's just life, right? Like some humans are going to be more attractive than others. Like some animals are more attracted to other animals for whatever reason. It's, it is what it is. Like you just let it go. Like you don't have to get so obsessed about somebody else because you can't procreate with them or you're in competition with them or whatever. But you know, I just thought of this, it's like an animal terms. You know, like you have like the Alpha male and like males that are like vying for like a female that's in heat. It's like attention and they'll fight each other like kill each other or whatever because they want to procreate to have their genes survive. So perhaps some of the attacks that you get online like this or just people that are like, like chest. Yeah. Like they don't want you to prose inappropriate. They're just like, oh no. Like you can't like I need to procreate with this person or whatever, you know? I have no idea. I'm just trying to like really begin into like the nature, the things that you can't really control that much I guess because it's your animalistic side. Although you know we can control these things you don't know. Like I don't know why if people get so bent out of shape about like somebody that wants to appear attractive or take care of themselves or whatever, like we do so many things. It's not even like having cleavage or whatever. Like you wear certain clothes that make your body look good or you work out to like have a, like a shape or figure that you think is attractive and maybe other people find attractive where you get your hair done a certain way or you wear certain clothes or makeup or whatever. And guys do the same thing, right? Like they pick out clothes that they feel like make them look good or they wear like a sleeveless shirt because they'd been like working out their arms or whatever. And it's like, I mean like so many things are sexualized on the human body. You know, if you're, if you're looking at it from that perspective of like attracting a mate, you know, like maybe a guy that maybe you're attracted to, a guy that's taller or a guy that has like big muscles or you know, like whatever. I just don't get why boobs in the sense or just like such a trigger for people. It seems like that, I don't know if it's like an all scenarios, but online in particular seems to really trigger a lot of people. I really, you know, I feel you on the whole like biological aspect, right? Because obviously we do know that there are some kind of like

Speaker 4: 1:14:12

programmed things in us, but we've also evolved a lot since then. And what bothers me is when people assume that that's what you're doing, right? Like you, you kind of said it yourself when you were like, you put on something because it makes you feel good. Like, yeah, we know that there's a chance that someone else is gonna see it and like it, it doesn't mean that we are interested in their feedback on it. It's you're wearing something because you feel attractive in it. It doesn't mean you're attempting to attract others. You just feel your best and who doesn't want to go out in the world feeling their best, but to assume someone's intentions to assume that someone wants commentary on their body because you can see parts of it is just so way off and especially like, like we're in a a much more educated place now. Like we know that people's desires are way different than what we had initially thought. Like a lot of our beliefs are based on just like very heteronormative stuff and there are people out there that are asexual that have no interest in anything sexual at all, but they probably still want to look nice. It feels good to feel good. So it frustrates me when people are constantly throwing shit at people like, I know why you did this. Clearly you have your camera angle this way because of this. Clearly you're wearing this shirt because of this. And it's like maybe I have a small room to work with and this is the only way I can fit the camera. Maybe I'm wearing this shirt because I just liked the way it fits. Maybe I feel like I look good in it. Maybe even though we know that a part of our kind of biological drive is to procreate, many of us tell that drive to fuck off, you know? Yeah, exactly. It's the assuming of intentions and the assumption that everyone wants commentary and not even everyone, but like women especially like everyone seems to think that we are here to be commented on.

Speaker 5: 1:16:06

Yeah. Well I mean let's just, okay, so there like people are like, okay, you went in, have your boobs out because you're trying to get so much attention and blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. So it's like, okay guys, well let's look at like Ninja for example, who like dyes his hair, these crazy colors. Is He g like where's the outrage that he's dying his hair, these crazy colors to attract children to his stream to like be in his audience. You know what I mean? Like, or any other creator, like that's been some sort of character or doing whatever. Like, if we're not presenting ourselves in a certain way or whatever, like using our camera or appearance to, you know, get people to look at our stream, well let's just have no cameras on our stream. Let's just, you know, let's just have it be like a blank black screen and just voices. I mean like w like, oh, there's just so many people that are using their appearance for different things. Like dr disrespect has like a crazy looking appearance to get people to like click on his stream or whatever. Um, I just don't, I don't get it. Like, why be outraged by a woman who feels confident and maybe because she like is wearing whatever that makes her feel good about herself. She's able to interact with her audience better or whatever. Or like, maybe it is something like maybe a guy does click because he's like, oh, I find this woman attractive. Like, yeah, who cares? But like, what about why? Why are you just going after the women? Because there are guys that are literally doing the same thing in a different way.

Speaker 4: 1:17:34

Yup. But yeah, and that's, it's a woman thing, right? Yeah. At the root of it, that's what it is. People weren't thrilled about us being on the platform in the first place because when it was just gaming, everyone was like, girls don't game though. Why would they be on here? They're only on here trying to catch Duke. Like, no bro, I've been playing video games since I was a fucking toddler. Like fuck off. I have no interest in any of you. Yeah. And the ones that like, like who say well you get so much more Trent attention because of what you're wearing or how you look like it's not the attention I'm looking for. Actually most of those people that come in because they see that quarter inch of Cleve gib band, like they don't generally get to stick around because they say gross shit, you know, like this. This isn't doing as much for me as you think. Maybe I get a couple extra clicks in the beginning, but most of those clicks I think turned into bands. Yeah. The rest of that, like I'm doing the same shit any other content creator is doing, which is like relying on my personality and my, my drive, my business acumen, everything to move myself forward. Yeah. If you want to reduce it to my titties then by all means go ahead. But it doesn't change the fact that I put a fuck ton of work into this and it, you could be the hottest woman alive if you just turn on your stream and expect people to follow, subscribe tip because you're hot, it's not going to go anywhere. I've seen it countless times. There is so much fucking work that goes into this.

Speaker 5: 1:19:00

Yeah, no, I tell people that all the time. I'm like, okay, so if it's just you have boobs, you turn your camera on and you're hers and suddenly successful on twitch will then like, why aren't all the top content creators on twitch? Females with boobs, you know what I mean? Like, think about that guys like you, you just, it's just a way to hide behind the fact that we don't, weren't girls on the platform, like we don't, and it's like the, so let's just say these guys are just watching girls because of their boobs. Like if they aren't stealing their views, your views, cause they're not gonna, they wouldn't be watching you anyway. If that's the only reason they're watching and came on the platform. Like they're not going to like the girls gone, they're just not going to be watching you. Like, where do you think they're gonna go? They're gonna go somewhere else. If that's really the reason they're watching somebody. But yeah, like I'm with you, the people that maybe click on something because of you, they think you're attractive or whatever. Uh, they don't, they're not going to stick around unless they find you actually interesting. Like they're not just gonna sit around and watch your stream. Cause we're like, oh wow, I could really just like stare at the scroll all day. Just nothing, just because she's so beautiful, you know, like, I mean maybe like Weirdo Stalker people, but that's like not your average person, you know, like they're not going to, absolutely not. Yeah, it's just a there. There's just so much like fail, like things that don't make sense when it comes to the logic behind things. Just like people assuming my intentions with breastfeeding and you start to break down the argument and you're like, okay, well let's talk about this. Let's go look, let's go look to see how many views I've like increased since this as it's happened. It hasn't increased. My view is like, you know, like it hasn't done any of these things and it's like the same. There's just so many like conflicting arguments, like these same people that want to be like, oh, these girls abuse the platform to have cleavage, to trick their audience into thinking that they're sexually available to get donations, blah, blah, blah. Oh, this chick is breastfeeding her child. She's clearly not sexually available. She's tricking her audience into donating to potentially see a nipple. It's like bubble, like which is it? Like it like, yes, finger, just like insane that it's just all women on the platform are tricking their audience into giving them donations and it's like, that doesn't make sense. It doesn't make any sense. And it's like, honestly like who does that make look like a fucking asshole? Yeah. It's like,

Speaker 4: 1:21:21

then who's tipping yanking them. They're gonna marry that person across the fucking country.

Speaker 5: 1:21:26

It's like, hey guys, if you really have a problem with this, I have a great idea. Don't watch, just stop supporting these people. I mean there's a, there's a thought, you don't have to like don't attack the person that's doing the content. Why don't you ground up your guys and be like, Bro, like we're falling for this. Like let's be smaller.

Speaker 4: 1:21:45

Exactly. Instead of shaming the women for just doing their own thing, remind your bros like, hey dude, she's not going to fuck you. Like she just kissed her boyfriend two seconds ago and then you throw a tip asking her on a date. Like clearly that's not what she's here for. Yeah. And then this is my favorite thing. So like I wrote an article about this on my website. Um, something about like reasons to shut the fuck up about what women wear on twitch and it always goes the same route. Like first everyone feels so bad for these poor lonely men that are being misled and, and um, manipulated into giving money. Sure. That's totally a thing that, that this is happening. You know, I'm not going to say that there aren't some women who play it up, but for the most part, most of the women that I see online are just doing their own thing and men are just assuming that that's what we're here for. We're here to find a suitor, you know? So if we, if we let go of these poor men being manipulated into giving their money to these terrible, terrible women, then the next thing always goes to. But what about the kids? We got to protect the kids. I wouldn't want my kids seeing this. Like, well then bitch, watch them. Yeah. I mean honestly watch your fucking kids like any, any parent I know says the same shit. It's my job to watch my kids like to police my kids content. It is not the Internet's job to make sure that there is nothing unwholesome there. It's my job to make sure that they don't start watching Barney on youtube and wind up watching conspiracy theories or some shit. Like that's my fucking job. Yeah, no, it drives me crazy. Like we can't escape blame for anything. We can't escape blame for men thinking that we are interested in dating them when we've been shown no signs of that. We can't escape blame for kids stumbling into our chats even though mine is rated for mature audiences because as you can tell, I swear a lot

Speaker 5: 1:23:38

for the same reason. Like honestly my string probably doesn't even need to be marked mature, but I feel uncomfortable with the thought that somebody younger is in my stream and so I just don't want it, you know? So I market mature. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:23:51

What's crazy is I have kids in my community and we talk about some very vulgar stuff, like we've had sex related conversations, we've had conversations about anything and everything because like I said, we talk about anything as long as you can keep it respectful and then the one added rule when it comes to like sexual stuff especially I'm willing to talk about it but don't ask me about my personal preferences. Like you were saying like I'm there to foster the conversation. If we're making jokes about blowjobs don't ask me if I like giving them or whatever like that. That's the line I draw and I establish that boundary all the time. Like just because we're talking about sex doesn't mean I want to talk about my sex life. Like there's a very big line there. So like we have kids that are in my channel like and their parents are in my channel as well. They know the type of content I have. They know that their kid could come in and hear us making jokes about all of the various weird nicknames for obscure, probably not real sexual activities that find their way to urban dictionary. They know that they can come in and hear that they know that they could wait five minutes and hear us talk about mental health too. So like when I've talked to those parents and asked them like how is it that you're okay with having like your kid in my chat knowing that like as an example, one of them is like 12 now, 13 years old, like can I ask how you handle this? And it was just like a very nonchalant like, well we talked to them like, oh fuck, that's it. So you just don't make it weird and shameful that they're looking at something that you disagree with or that they're asking questions about something that's considered taboo. You just answer. Interesting. What's that like? That's just called parenting, right? Yeah. So to all the people who are so terrified for the children that are on PLA, on platform because it's gaming, like they will find worst shit. And some of these gaming streams[inaudible]

Speaker 5: 1:25:42

well, even just like, I mean some of the like really like graphic things that are in video games where you like blow someone's head off and stuff like that. It's just like, okay, that was pretty cool. It's like some of these things are really gory or you have like grand theft auto or can you like like a stripper up or hooker on the side of the road and things like that. I mean it's all, I don't know. Like those are all things. It's just parents.

Speaker 4: 1:26:05

All the conversations you have around that like, Hey, this is a game. This is what it means. Like, or like this is language you're being exposed to. This is inappropriate in these settings. Inappropriate and these like, it's just not that fucking hard.

Speaker 5: 1:26:18

I Dunno. I mean for you if you're having like good discussions that are educational can help people, it's probably better to hear things from you than maybe some of the things that they'll hear, hear from other kids at school that like are just not true, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:26:33

And I do get that a lot. I do have a lot of younger people that find their way into my stream and I give them a little disclaimer because some, some kids are really young and they'll pop in and they'll tell me how old they are and I'll be like, listen, this channel is probably not for you sweetie. Like you might want to go and talk to your parents and see how they feel about this because we talk about a lot of things like having said that, if you have any questions I'm happy to answer them, but like this content might not be for you and if it's clear that they are just like really young and aren't quite grasping that, then I'll usually band them like with all the love and kindness in the world. I'm really sorry. I would love to have you here, but I just think this is too, too mature for you. Like if you talk to your parents and they disagree, like have them message me. But otherwise like I'm going to ask you to leave. I'm sorry. Yeah, that even banning them. It doesn't, they can still watch your stream. That takes till the parent's job

Speaker 5: 1:27:25

them from actually they just prevents them from commenting. You know, it's the other thing that's like at the end of the day, like these parents, you know, watch their children and there's so much access to porn on various sites. Like even Twitter, like you follow someone on Twitter, they like some porn, it shows up in your feed. I mean that's just available for so many people to see that. Like the last thing I twitch is just like really the last thing. If you're going to go onto like a crusade of cleansing the Internet of things that children may stumble across.

Speaker 4: 1:27:58

Yeah. And like the thing that then they go to after that is like, well it's a gaming platform. Like no, actually it's not. There's way more than that. There's music, there's, there's fitness, there's talk shows, there's art, there's crafting. Like you can't pull the whole, this is just gaming content. So if you're not gaming, get the book out in anymore because it's way more than that.

Speaker 5: 1:28:18

Then a huge thing that people have said to me too. And it's like, well then just watch the games. Like you'll never actually see my stream if you're not perusing IRL or you know, a SMR or whatever. You know what I mean? Like

Speaker 4: 1:28:30

yeah, to take part of it, you won't see it. It's, it's just always so predictable. And then the next thing that they go to is like, will some, you know that some women are putting out sexual content, like, you know, some of them are basically prostituting themselves for money. And I'm like, so what the fuck do I care? There are, there are Laurel prostitutes and sex workers in this world and I'm not gonna shame them. Someone somewhere was like, hey, I like sex a bunch. Maybe I should make some money off of it. Fuck yeah, do it. Whatever.

Speaker 5: 1:29:02

No, let's get pissed. They're like, I want to sexualize your buddy, but if you own it and sexualize yourself and try to profit like I'm not okay with that. And it's like, okay, well what? Cause you have, cause you have to pay for pictures that you want for free. Okay, whatever.

Speaker 4: 1:29:15

Right. I saw, I saw a bunch of posts in like a thread once of um, women who decided that when they got complimented by strange men in the world that they would just agree with them to see what happened and spoiler alert, they get really fucking upset. Really random random old dudes. Um, what the example that like stood out to me the most? Um, it was like a random old dude at like a target counter. There was a girl standing by like the jewelry counter and she had like some makeup in her hands and the guy looked over and was like, you're so pretty, you know, you don't need that. And she was like, oh no, I know. And then he just like went off on her about being conceded to be humble and all this shit. Why there are women who have started responding with thank you. I know when someone says you're really pretty and they get upset, they get very mad. It's cool for us to be complimented by others. But if we like ourselves to then Oh, you're a conceited bitch. I don't want to be around you anymore. That's gross. That you like yourself that much. Oh my gosh. Wow. Yeah. I dare you to try it the next time. A stranger compliments like thank you. I know.

Speaker 5: 1:30:29

Yeah. Oh my God. Where it's just God. When people are like, you'd be so much prettier if you smiled. And I'm like, yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:30:35

Oh, okay. Hey grandpa, let me just smile for Ya. Oh God. That like you would be so much prettier if I like you better with, those are comments that like I can't let slide anymore. I every time I hear them, thank you. But I wasn't asking. I wear makeup if I want to. I don't wear it. If I don't, I'll cut my hair if I want to. I'll grow it out if I want to. None of this requires your approval or co-sign. Like I don't care that you're upset that I cut my hair because you like women with longer.

Speaker 5: 1:31:09

Oh my gosh. It's so crazy. Like[inaudible] all the way in on like your appearance and it's like, yes. Are you doing this to also like guys that you watch? Like are you telling Ninja man? I really just like now that you dyed your hair to colors, it's just really affected me. Like I really liked it when you had your hair just one color. It really adds tears showing up sex better. It really makes your eyes stand out and now it's just the color. It's just all over the place. It just seems like maybe you're going through something, I don't know. Like do you want to talk about like let me slide into your DM and he would be like, excuse me.

Speaker 4: 1:31:44

Wow. It's just, it's so funny because like this is stuff like you could, you can either cry or you can laugh. Right? Cause it's just so stupid that we have to get this day in and day out. Like I had a dude that was trying to slide in my dms on Instagram for like a fucking year and he was a local person. So I was kind of like very nervous about like responding at all, especially negatively. So when you would comment on my posts publicly saying you wanted to hang out, I would respond. I go to the meetups like that's the place to go if you want to hang out. Oh but I'm looking for something more personal like yeah, that's not what I'm doing though. Like I'm not looking for that at all. Just kept responding as nicely as I could. Then that person after I posted like one of those like tank top shorts, pictures sends me this like long message about how disappointed he is that I'm like using my body now and that I'm one of those girls and this was like literally like if you were to scroll up through the message of him shaming me, he was commenting on every picture that he liked of mine with a little heart eyes with a little fire. You're so hot, you're so beautiful. Let's hang out all that shit. And then I posted something that apparently was over the line for him and then I am a terrible person. I'm just trash. I stooped so low. It's a shame that I didn't trust my content enough to just rely on that. Now I have no choice but to use my body for views. Like it really doesn't translate. Like you were saying, like you were in the middle of this massive like online controversy to be fair, like I don't even know what the reddit post wound up at, but I think I saw two of them. But like your, um, the one clip that like, the one that I found, we're talking three point 2000, um, likes and one and a half thousand comments. Like that's, that hasn't translated for you. Like me wearing what I was wearing the hat in the house that day and posting it like, no, it's not helping my stream. Yeah, it's just me. That's it. Yeah. People are just, they don't, I don't know. But then they would be like, oh, well you thought it was going to do this and it didn't, but it hasn't changed your intentions. And it's like, okay, there's always something somebody can say, I can still read your mind and I know that you're a dumb thought, just did this because you're trying to manipulate men into dating you their money. You're so dumb that you are wrong. So ha ha didn't work. Dumb Bitch. Oh God. Yeah. There's just no winning. There's no winning. That's why like it's good to eventually get to a point where you're just like, man, I'm going to be me because no matter what the fuck happens, someone's going to have some shit to say. So I might as well at this point be living my most authentic life, knowing that like people hated me before they're going to hate me now. The nicest person that any of us can think of off the top of our heads. Like someone hates that person. Someone sees them as the embodiment of everything that they either can't have or that they hate, you know? Yeah, yeah. People are going to hate you. It's not about you. It's about them. So if you know people are gonna hate you, just live your best life, do the shit that makes happy.

Speaker 5: 1:34:58

I'm just listening to the people that love you cause there's going to be way more people that love you. Then he hit you. At the end of the day, you just, you have to listen to those people

Speaker 4: 1:35:05

for real. So how did your husband react when you told him about like this whole Musk, cause you said this kind of like stuck with you over the weekend.

Speaker 5: 1:35:13

He was, I showed him some of the things and he was just really baffled. Like what? Like he, he was confused. Like he didn't read any of this, just like, I can't believe people are getting so upset about it. And he was like, you know, these people don't mean anything to you. Like you don't know, these people don't let their opinions of you like influence you in any kind of way. Like at the end of the day you are doing something that's good for people and you know, he was just being as supportive as he could, you know, and just trying to tell me that like, you know, like the kind of person that you are and you have just reminded me of all the good things I have. Like you have four children that love you and I love you and you know, like people do, you have your back and there's nothing wrong with this. And just trying to, you know, be like positive reinforcement. Um, but some of the things, but yeah, it was just, it was like I shared some of the stuff with him like in the beginning and like let them see some of the things and he told me and then it was just kinda like, I just didn't even want to talk about it anymore. Like after it got to a certain point I would just try to distract myself and didn't, I don't know, I didn't want it bleeding into too much of all my other conversations with people cause it was just such a like everybody want to talk and still like, am I strain? Like everybody keeps bringing it up and it will take over my whole stream. And it's like, this is why I didn't breastfeed in the first place because it's the same thing about like even talking too much about my family on-stream people just latch onto a thing and then they just start asking a lot of like personal questions. And it makes me feel weird when people ask a lot of things about my kids or just by life. Like, I just want to share with you what I want to share with you and then people will get mad that if I don't want to answer their questions about certain things. Like I haven't told people exactly how old I am and it's not because I really care. It's just because I don't want like I got doxed early on when I started streaming and like I'm not trying to make it any easier for people to track me down, you know what I mean? So that was, I didn't share my age with

Speaker 4: 1:37:13

well in the beginning either because of that exact year. I don't remember when I was finally like fuck it, like whatever. I don't care. I'll just, I'll just fess up. I am an aged woman at the ripe old age of fucking 30 I think was when I finally like told people how old I was. I'm 33 now. But yeah, like you said, it's not always like about what people think it's about. Sometimes it's just about you protecting yourself. Like it's scary as fuck you saw some of the messages that like we get online like real explicit details on how people want to like dismember con like yeah, fucked up shit. Yeah, like of course we don't want to give them any other to find out.

Speaker 5: 1:37:56

No, because there are unfortunately crazy people out there and you don't know when someone's just like joking around trying to be a troll or when someone's actually serious and so it's like why risk it? It doesn't really add a lot of like me telling you how old I am or telling you specifics about my children or even discussing my family that much. If I don't want to talk about it, if I don't want to talk about it, it's not really adding a lot of value to my stream. Just let me talk about the things I feel comfortable talking about. Yeah,

Speaker 4: 1:38:22

I mean ultimately it's your stream. Yeah. You can do whatever you want. You can sign on and just play the triangle for six hours. Like who the fuck cares? If they don't like it,

Speaker 5: 1:38:31

they don't have to watch and just sign off. Sit in the corner like crying, rocking back and forth.

Speaker 4: 1:38:40

Join me for a fetal position crying stream. It feels good. Yeah, let's get it. Get it out man. I'm so glad that I got to have you on for this. Um, cause I had some plans for some other podcasts for a while and I was like swamped with stuff for account. I was going to and as I was getting ready to come back, I'm like, which one do I lead with? And then I saw the whole post and everything and I was like, that's the one I lead with. Let's have a conversation about normalizing something that really needs to be normalized. And I really felt like there were a few people in my community too who were still not quite wrapping their head around the idea that you wouldn't wear a cover or just cover up the bottom half of your camera or whatever. Like why should you fucking have to, you don't like it. Just leave. It's not against tos falls in line with everything else. If you don't like it, just leave.

Speaker 6: 1:39:28

[inaudible]

Speaker 5: 1:39:29

yeah. So one posted this meme and it was like everyone has two conveniently located covers on their face. It's called their eyelids. You can cover them at any time. And I was like, oh my God.[inaudible] so true.

Speaker 4: 1:39:44

Wow. Yeah, exactly. God, we just, we just need people to chill. Just chill. Yup. Is it, is it necessary? Is it honest? Is it kind? If whatever you're about to say doesn't meet like the majority of that criteria, then it probably doesn't like just, just keep it

Speaker 5: 1:40:03

to yourself.[inaudible] just shut the fuck up.[inaudible] yes. Preach. Amen. That's like, I tried

Speaker 4: 1:40:11

because like, so much of my platform is about mental health and mindfulness. I try to be very like, kind and consider it and how I word things, but when it comes to certain stuff, like I feel like that is just the clearest way to get it across. Like if it doesn't hurt you or other people, if it's not effecting anything, then just shut the fuck up. Like, it's just not that hard to shut the fuck up. It's pretty easy. In fact, it's usually the default for us, you know?

Speaker 6: 1:40:35

[inaudible] yeah,

Speaker 4: 1:40:38

yeah. We just need to be nicer to each other for sure. And you have me more interested in looking into Amr, knowing that you got into it late and we're just like, hey, fuck it. This is Kinda cool.

Speaker 5: 1:40:48

Yeah. W like there's, some of it is[inaudible] better than others and there

Speaker 4: 1:40:54

are still people that do sexualize ASR as anything on the Internet and everything has been sexualized. So you, you might run across some of those things like that and be like, oh wait, this isn't what I thought. It's not all like that. There's a different trigger or something that might work for you that might not work for other people. So if you find one thing, you're like, oh, I don't really like this. There's a whole bunch of other things. But like if you experienced a SMR, a lot of people experience it. Like whenever they get their hair cut or someone plays with their hair or something like that. So if that's an a situation, we do experience it. Um, there are role plays where people like do your makeup or cut your hair or whatever and make sure you wear headphones. And probably through watching one of those videos you might experience mar again and you'll be like, oh, okay, now I get it. And it will just kind of help you figure out like what specific triggers or sounds that you like that help give you that tingly sensation. Kind of like goosebumps in a way. I was definitely very confused by it and like I'm, I'm glad that I didn't go running my mouth before I learned more because I also thought that Amr was a sexual thing initially. And then it took literally like one second of fucking research to see that it's just sexual to some people because they have chosen to sexualize them. You know, like a woman speaking into a microphone. Oh, it's phallic shaped. That's sexy. Wow. She's getting real close to it. Oh yeah. Yeah. But I do, I find it interesting. It bums me out that so many people like just throw a SMR artists into the dirt. Like, oh, well they're just, they're just being sexual online. Like that's gross and weird when they, they've never looked into it. Um, I did watch some Azamara on twitch. I found one channel and I was like, I don't get this. This is just not appealing. Um, and I sent it to a friend of mine who's like very into it and they were like, um, they don't do a good job. That's why you don't like it. Like they're just bad at this. So I kept scrolling and I found someone else. And um, I don't know if you know her ruby true. Yeah. Yeah. She's awesome. She's awesome. She's on twitch and I, I love her. So friends, if you like SMR, like now you have heathered effect and you have ruby true. And there's so many other people that do it and it, it's not a sexual thing. It's definitely, it's a sensory relaxation kind of thing. It's pretty cool. Exactly. Yeah. Maybe someday. I usually just do Amr, joking around and I like get really quiet and then I hit my obnoxious buttons on my go XLR, so I'll like soothe you into a nice little and then I'll start spamming obnoxious noises like, ah, fuck you. Yeah, no, I mean I do that by accident because I just am now eyebrow. It happens. Well, I have to get ready for my stream now, but I really appreciate you coming on the podcast today. I appreciate you weighing in on kind of everything that went into you actually being at the center of such a shit storm that you definitely did not deserve. I applaud you for all of your efforts in normalizing it. Even after all of the backlash came like you stood your ground. I think that was wonderful and you took that as an opportunity to educate a lot of people, which I really admired. Like it wasn't just you sassing at people being nasty like, well, I'm allowed to do this, so fuck off. It was like you were even saying earlier in the cast, like you, you really approached people with a very compassionate and understanding mind. Despite them being pretty shitty. So I'm really happy to have had you on, I'm excited to have found you online. I'm excited to support all of your content and I'm sure my community will be too.

Speaker 5: 1:44:34

Oh my gosh. Well thank you so much. I really appreciate you having me on and just being able to talk about this and hopefully if somebody listens to this that was on the fence about it, this will convince them. But if, and I did actually interview a lactation consultant that answered a lot of questions and that's up. You can go watch that if you want to. I mean, yeah, if you'll send me them, uh, in our DM, I'll include that in the link to make it easier for people to not have to go and search. Yeah, okay. Because I'm sure I'd like to learn something from that. Oh yeah. She, she like taught me some things too that I had no idea. I was like, oh my gosh. Well, I had no idea for kids that don't. Yeah, yeah. She just like just about culture and breastfeeding and things like that. So it was pretty cool. But yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. And, um, yeah, I can't wait to, I need a pop into your stream too and just see what's going on.[inaudible]

Speaker 4: 1:45:22

just ridiculous. Like you could go from like poop and fart jokes because I have a sense of humor of like a 14 year old boy to like in depth conversations about like life in the universe. It's, it's my favorite place. So we would definitely love to have you there one more time if you want to just tell people how they can find you. Um, I'll have the links, but sometimes it's good to hear it for people who are driving.

Speaker 5: 1:45:44

Yeah. Um, you can find me on Instagram, Twitter, twitch, and youtube under heathered effects on Youtube. It's heathered effect a s m r but it's, everything is like backslash heathered effects. If you type it in, it's going to take you right to where you need to go. Cool. Thank you again. I really appreciate this. Yeah. Everyone go follow her. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:46:10

[inaudible]

Speaker 3: 1:46:41

[inaudible][inaudible].