Harsheen Khandpur is a product manager at Global Data Consortium(GDC), a fintech startup located in North Carolina, where she’s helped build key product features. Before that she worked as a software engineer at the same startup after graduating from the University of Wisconsin, Madison with a degree in computer engineering.
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harsheen-khandpur-621674107/
Harsheen Khandpur is a product manager at Global Data Consortium(GDC), a fintech startup located in North Carolina, where she’s helped build key product features. Before that she worked as a software engineer at the same startup after graduating from the University of Wisconsin, Madison with a degree in computer engineering.
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harsheen-khandpur-621674107/
Welcome to what can you tell me about software? My name is and I am a graduate student at Santa Clara university where I studied data science, technology and software. And my name is and I spent six years, the head of software at a tech startup. For us. It seems like the latest craze is Bitcoin. I mean, it's been the craze, but more recently because of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies we've seen crazy market Toby I don't know if you had any thoughts about that? Well, the thought is this costs, this cross a trillion dollars in valuation. I mean, who could have in their wildest dreams expected that to happen? I think that's super fascinating. I think I keep seeing these articles about Bitcoin. Just, just reach the trillion dollar market cap. It's weird that we never speak about market caps in relation to other currencies. You never hear you know, the dollar is, is trading at. I don't know how many, how many dollars are in circulation, but you don't, if you're like a hundred trillion dollars just reached a a hundred trillion dollar market cap. So I think this is very singular and unique for Bitcoin. I don't know what the consequences are for treating it like that, but I really don't see it as a currency because of this. Yeah. I mean, I think it's kind of somewhere in between, because if you look at say gold, gold doesn't really have a fiance behind it, but the dollar has a Fiat because you have faith in the government. Whereas cryptocurrency T took over as an asset that doesn't physically exist because people had Fiat had faith in no centralized ledger, no central government controls of it. Nobody actually controls it. It's completely decentralized. So enough people believe in that vision at this thing was able to cross a trillion dollars in total. In total market cap, even though none of the people I know who own cryptocurrency actually use it to buy stuff, just use it to hold asset value, which is, I think very interesting. So the question is like, is the currency part of cryptocurrency misleading? I think the real question is, are you buying Bitcoin ether? Well, on that note, I'd like to introduce today's guest who is a product manager at a FinTech startup located in North Carolina, or she's really interesting because she started her career as a software engineer before transitioning into the product management role. This company that she started at right out of college was just a 10% tiny startup, you know, well, not necessarily working in their garage, but they did have a nice office office suite. They just finished raising their series a I'm excited to talk to our sheet. Let's get to it. Our sheen. Thanks for joining me. I'm super excited to get into this. I always like to start these episodes by asking how you got into software. You know, when did you first start thinking about it? Maybe it was in school, maybe it was earlier. What got you into software? Got it. I think, let me start first before, like what got me into engineering because I did do computer engineering for my undergrad. So when I was two years old, my dad got me like a rocking horse. And the first thing usually kids do is like, go play with it. What I did was taken apart. Completely. It was so taken apart that it could never get fixed back together. So I think that was the first time my dad was like, looks like she's going to be an engineer. But let's see. But I think that's, that was one of the first things. Like, I love taking things apart in general which was why I actually moved into engineering as well. And my first introduction to technology again has to be. To my dad, my dad was super passionate about the new technologies, new gadgets, everything like, even if we were like goals, like it's me and my sister he was always passionate, like, okay, this is the new tech gadget coming up. Let's explore this. And then I think more into deeper software's I got into then in my undergrad honestly when I actually chose. To do computer engineering. Because again, I knew I didn't want it to do something with technology, but I wasn't exactly sure what but undergrad was a way of exploring that I actually wanted to do computer science and computer engineering. Gotcha. Where did you go to school? I went to university of Wisconsin, Madison. Okay. That's super interesting. So that's the Midwest. What's that? W w how would you describe sort of like tech culture at that school? Was it, was there a culture? Did you guys have hackathons? Was there like a lot of clubs? How would, how would you describe that? Yeah, it's a pretty massive school. Although the reputation for a UAW is it's a party school just because it's in a cold weather. But it actually is a super high deck. We had multiple hackathons Multiple tech jobs within the university itself. I was personally working at the, a tech store there as well. And and again like the professors are so engaging in the tech world that the biggest healthcare company, Epic is actually in Madison, too. So the tech culture in Madison is. Supremely big from that perspective. And I think joining U w Madison and meeting people from, again, all across the board and within different industries within the tech industry to was Larry eye-opening. Did you end up getting a job right after you graduated So I think I got a job within three months of graduation. So I graduated in may and I started in August. So I actually had interviewed for. Red hat in October before graduation, but by March, they said their budget had fallen through which was why like, as like, okay, cool. Let's find another job. But the main middle manager of that red hat company had reached out to me saying, well, another neighbor of his is looking for a similar position. And would you like to interview for a startup company in Raleigh, North Carolina? And I was like, sure, let's do that. And that's how I got my current job. Super cool. It's like a typical story when everybody's like, you know, you, you interview, you go through all these rounds of interview and then they come up with some reason like, Oh, the budget fell through. Once you get on the actual job, you realize nobody gets it. Nobody gives a shit about budgets. We never talk about budgets afterwards. Red hat is an open source technology platform, correct? Correct. Okay. That's the extent to which I know about that. how do they make money? So they're, their main source of money is actually through customer service and through actually servicing. So a lot of those times for those open source softwares and things like that, you have to get it set up in your one environment, things like that. And then if anything goes wrong and people are calling red hat, Which is called consulting services that red hat then offers. So a lot of that happens through consulting services, but also now they're venturing into cloud based things and everything else, which a lot of the bigger Amazon and every, every other company is mentioning and do. So that's how they're now expanding. Revenue modes, I would say. Got it. And so the alas profitable segment of IBM, maybe, maybe. So where do you, where do you, where do you work now? So I worked for a company called global data consortium. It's an FinTech growth company in Raleigh, North Carolina. And we built an electronic identity verification to an API and 50 plus. Countries globally. So you would probably think, why do I need to get verified through an API or things like that. So if you think about signing on like a cryptocurrency, is that from the USA is, let's say, or even a financial institutions page, you, you, because of the European laws, because of the other laws in other countries you have to get verified to the verification process. And that's not always just here's my driver's license. So if you're signing on to a cryptocurrency, Brad, from there, we'll just let you in. There's just a couple of like rotating seconds in there where you're seeing the spinning wheel, but you don't know what's actually happening there. A lot of those times the verification process is happening or they're checking. Are you who you really say you are? And does like, does like her Shane live at this address? Does she not the social security number? It does her shame. How does it report? Like, is that a real person or is she faking it? So even for larger transactions that happen on cryptocurrency platforms or things like that a lot of those times verification needs to happen. So that's what we do globally. Like through a single API. So this is super timely. I was, in fact, last night I signed up for Coinbase pro. I don't know if that's one of your questions you can talk about that probably can, you know, for that they wanted pictures of my license exactly what you're saying. And then you're right. It was like, honestly like a two minute less than two minute process where they verified. It was pretty impressive. So you're saying that period after I submit my license. That, that VR, that verification, whatever is occurring is being done by some API. Maybe not your company, but some similar, yeah. Some solvent sort of BPA connect. Yes. And if that falls through, then it kicks off to manual verification. That's where they might contact the customer for more details and things like that. But firstly, try and verify you through. Like the single-most led the digital layer. If the digital layer is able to verify you, for fact, otherwise it kicks off two manual verification teams, right. Or someone might actually take a look at your physical ID and be like, okay, this looks good. Or this is not good. So, so somebody did see my ID, somebody like some human did get my ID in that two minute timeframe. No, it, if it got kicked off to manual verification, then only. Okay. So usually, typically I guess like in that spaces, it's just digital layer. How does that work? How does that work? So you get all this information. You have the barcode on my license, you have my name, you have my face. W what are they comparing it to. So, so we, we're not completely in the document verification, firstly in, in, in our business, but just telling you from like our perspective like if you enter your name, address, date of birth, social security number on our back and we're hitting a lot of government registries, telecon registries. Things like that locally in that country. So let's say you've signed up your phone number with APN T or something. So we're, we're hitting those direct sources on our side to verify that kind of information. So we're, we're looking at things like if you, you just, the us we might be looking at various different things like a DMV or maybe a postal service, or maybe like a ATNT or things like that to see. Like, is your identity fully verified? Maybe if you think about credit scores, experience has all your data or. Things other than credit bureaus have your data. So similarly in all the different countries, you would have these kinds of different directories and registries. There's also consented marketing sources, commercial sources in each country as well that we're tapping into. So we don't really reveal our sources on what we actually hit and do the verification too. But that's just a small example of like how like some of those verifications do happen. Wow. That's super interesting. So basically all this, all this data is either public or it can be bought and yeah. Or lessons or you yeah. You pay per transaction, things like that. Yep. Okay. Very cool. And so at this ad at global data consortium, what exactly is your role? What do you do there? So I'm currently the product manager when I. Joined initially I was a product manager for their know your customer product, which I was just talking about. So you rarely find like actual consumers and now over after scaling that product over the last two and a half years, I've transitioned over to launching a new product to call know your business. And that's actually aimed at verifying suppliers and vendors and businesses. So when you think about different use cases, like even when the U S right now had the PPP program to distribute loans to different businesses, the small businesses, a lot of money actually went into fraudulent businesses as well. And even if you did like a basic check on them, they didn't even have a valid domain name or website. So things like that can now happen digitally to where that digital API layer should be able to do a lot of that verification all by itself or over that business. And if not we're also providing that kind of a data back to the customer as well. So I'm currently in the role of launching that product. We just had a G a launch for the product recently. And now we're just looking at expanding that super cool. And it sounds to me like you guys could theoretically the, you guys probably have like a hundred product ideas in the pipeline. So why, why pick this product idea to work on? Why, why put all your resources or a lot of your resources into this particular, into this particular idea? So I think Again, pulls me aligns with our use case of knowing your customer as well. Because eventually what we want to get into, which again, we're launching that also alongside KYB is connecting the person to a business as well. So what we're trying to do is let's say her, she works for. GDC. So we're going to verify GDC. We're going to verify her shame for all. It's going to verify her shame related to GVC at some point to too, again, to all the digital API. So that was one of our major drivers where a lot of those people, if you think about financial institutions, things like that, they want to know like, If a person is signing a check or things like that are there a signatory of that company or are they just an employee of the company? Do they even have the authority to sign the check there? Things like that. So that's becoming more and more of a use case these days where a lot of this stuff actually happens to manual verification and it takes three to four days. So some person is sitting behind the screen. Looking up 10 different business registries today gathering all that information again, looking at Google things like Google. So they're, they they've admitted to that and research interviews and taking three, four days to compile all that data together to verify that business is actually good. And should we let them onto the platform? Right. So if we can cut that layer, bring it down to just maybe. So the API even if they're able to verify like 40% of the businesses, that's still comes down a lot of costs for a lot of those businesses too. So that was one of the major reasons why we wanted to cut down on the manual verification pieces there. And again, it closely aligns with our KYC use case where we can leverage some of our KYC sources for now. I came by these sources too. Okay. So it sounds like it's like the most value add idea that you had in the pipeline. Okay. Yep. Very cool. And when, when. So, this is sort of, this is something I've always been interested in. I think your, your company is a little smaller. It's not like how big is your company? I mean, it's, it's literally just, I would say like 40 employees or so that's when I started. Yeah, it was like less than 10 employees. Okay. This, this, this. So when you're in that, when you're in a startup, this is sort of like this size. How do decisions be made? Is it typically management that decides this is the time we're headed in? Or is it more of a, of a team decision? You know, do they ask input from, you know, say product managers or maybe their software where like, are these meetings being held, you know, behind closed doors? Are they, are they more open and public for input from people like you. So I think over the last two years, I would say they've been more like higher management has been doing a lot of that work. Because again, like, even when you were on a side of the small, you're playing like five different people's hats as well and roles. So a lot of those product decisions, especially because this domain itself is FinTech and you need to have a lot of domain knowledge to be able to make those kinds of decisions ahead as well. So our co-founders have been experts in this field over the last 25 years. So that's why a lot of those decisions have been made from the higher management team. But now transitioning over since we've expanded our product team. Hired a director of product management, a CTO, things like that. Now it's become more of a collaborative process where all the product managers are giving that input. The director of product management is combining that roadmap together fully across all products. And then it's it's then discussed with the stakeholders. So then the stakeholders and what's come through which are the higher management and the CDO, the CEO is co-founders everyone else. So I would say if it's a small enough company, it's usually higher management, but once it starts expanding it definitely is the product managers giving influx and do the roadmap. Got it. And I think earlier you mentioned that you are five hats. So if you first had your first had is product management. What's the second, third. Yeah. So when I, when I actually joined the company, I actually joined on the engineering team because I had graduated as a computer engineer. So I, I joined do actually scale their DevOps processes. So I was actually working on a little bit of engineering. A little bit of product. I was also doing sales engineering. So I was actually on customer calls, explaining our product. I was also doing support because believe it or not, that's actually the best way to learn about a product because when you can actually go deep and find what the issue was with your own product that's actually the best way to learn especially with more and more technical products. So I was doing a lot of support work, sales, engineering, work, product, work, engineering work and, and yeah, I would say that's probably it. I, I don't think I sold that product. I was definitely not on any of the sales calls to sell the product. And then yeah, like I was also talking to RDP partners and sources across multiple countries as well to do API integrations of their products and onto our platform too. So, so it was, it was a lot of different roles all at the same time. Right. So I'm realizing we didn't fully discuss what an API is. I'm sort of familiar with it and it gets more and more interesting. Cause you've just said that you're an API business that uses. Other APIs, and then you're selling your API. If you had to describe API sort of. Really simply, you know, if I was to say I'm like, I'm five years old, let's say, how would you describe an, our five, let's say like nine, nine years old. How would, how would you describe API? So I an API, that's an actually very good question on, like, how do we describe an API, small five-year-old kid? So for an epi, I would say. It's again, like if you think about it, it's a way to connect act with people. Like, if you're thinking about even text messaging your mom right now like you're, you're connected through software day. So just think of API as another piece of software that connects. Do separate entities. So you would just want to send data across. So you want to send texts to your mom. So you had sending that to an API format, that's it? Your mom has that API integrated into her platform. So that's how she's able to receive that data. Right. And if she wants to get you back, that's how she's texting you back. By again, not saying hot, this is not extra work. This is how like an API works terms of like transferring over the data. It's within seconds. So again, like, like you see your texts reaches within seconds in an API format as well, like that API you're able to transfer all the data. In a couple of seconds, even. So API, I would say is like a job. It can do multiple different jobs. You can text, you can video call, you can do anything else with what NPI can do. Again, Every business will have their own API when that business can do. So. Even if you think about something like a Google maps, for example, they have an API. So if you want to show all case like, Oh, where's your restaurant on your website you can integrate Google's API. And that we show the Google map application on your own website. So that's, that's the way, at least I would think you would be able to describe an API and it was simple. Got it, got it. I think earlier you were saying that. A lot of, a lot of what you learned early on in the product management role is, is doing the customer service aspect. Like the customer service role, where you're talking to customers day in, day out. I believe that a lot of, a lot of my friends who are in sort of product management roles even like small startups and not necessarily in product management, just talking to the customers every day, you get in the weeds, you understand what it is they're facing. And then they also sometimes like rip you a new one. So you ended up doing a lot of pressure to like build something quickly. Now, I wonder, are you, now that you're like a 40 person company, you have a built out product team. You probably have a built out customer service team. Do you still do that on a day-to-day basis? Do you still talk to customers? So with the new KVB product, I have been doing a lot of those demos and talking to get customers about it, to get their feedback. So that's been because I've been on the new product side, but like from an established product side, it's not been as much like the product is. Brought up team as non-doing as much as we had done previously, but that's also because we're a B2B company. It's not completely, we're not directly involved with our consumers either. So a lot of that feedback is flowing to our sales engineering teams. So they're technical enough to understand that feedback and customer feedback and transfer it over to product. But but we did have, yeah. In between sessions that we do with some of our customers to gather like concrete feedback on product as well. So that makes it an easy way for us to gather feedback better as well. And then even when we are trying to do the roadmap for like, let's say, what different next countries should we target? We're actually talking with our main customers who are integrated on a platform and then gather that feedback and then make a holistic roadmap based on that too. So even the roadmap inputs do come from our customers as well. Got it. How often do you still code on the job? I know you said that you started off as a software engineer. I would say it's definitely become less. I have done it just to automate some processes within the product department itself. So just improve some of those processes. So I actually ended up coding it myself. But I've been more involved in like the sequel aspect and the data analytics aspect of things now after transitioning more to product management. But yeah, it's, it's been a while since I've actually done like full on Java coding or something like that. And, and aside from, I guess, I guess coding less from day one, starting day one at global data consortium, what else has changed? Do you think? I mean, even. Maybe as your first, from your first day being a product manager, how have you, how has your sort of point of view on the role changed in the last year? So I started again, I was a fresh new weave right out of college. Did not even know what product management was until I actually even joined GDC. And then working through each of those different departments trying to figure out what do I really like and what am I passionate about? The, the role evolved from doing like five different things all at the same time, maybe a little rattle to maybe now transitioning into like an actual full product management role and trying to do that the best. So I feel like in general, over the course of two years, I've become more aware of like what exactly product management is. What exactly the FinTech industry is? How do I actually increase my domain knowledge in terms of the FinTech industry, as well as increase my knowledge within product management. Because again, when you are in a startup company, you're trusted with responsibilities, but there's no real mentorship. Per se. So my director of product management was hired away later than I got into the product team itself too. So for me to like guide my own path and in a startup company where product management might not be a traditional product management role either. That's, that's where I was like hindering a little bit, but then I think once we've had like an established team now for a full product and we've been given, assigned actual products. In ourselves, like I have now a product manager for KYC. We have a product manager for KYB product. It's become much more efficient from that perspective. So I'm now taking on more and more responsibilities of driving the scheme I B product and building the roadmap out, things like that. So. That's actually made me much more confident within the product management field than the first day when I was a complete newbie and thinking like, what do I even want to do with my career? But I think having that fear to four months where I could explore what I really wanted to do by looking at all those different pieces, I think that that was extremely helpful and actually a good way for people who don't know what they want to do after college, even to explore and see what they really like. So joining a startup company really helps in that way. So on that note, what skills do you think are the most important at being a good product manager, product manager? I think the first and foremost would be communication skills. I, and I can't stress more upon that. It's it's very easy. Said the nun. But I've seen a lot of people fail just because they're not communicated properly, communicated expectations, properly communicated, roadmaps, properly communicated. If any issues coming up with the project, not being able to deliver it properly, things like that. So I think the first foremost communication skills and then followed by, I would say Prioritization skills as well. Again, for the product manager, you're the central person driving the whole product and 10 different people are going to come and say, well, this is more important, or this is more important. You need to have the skills and the abilities to, first of all, say no which is again very hard especially if you're new in a company as well. And the second to actually see what's actually important depending on the research in the market. The product, the features that your product actually really means where it says what's nice to have. And then from a technical product point of view, I think it would also be nice to have some sort of technical skills in terms of having sequel skills, which again you can obviously ask the data analyst to get you the data and things like that, but it's always good that if you know, SQL does not road block for you, you can go get the data yourself. Make the decisions yourself. So that definitely really helps honestly. So I think from that perspective, since all companies are becoming more and more data driven I think anything to do with data analytics is becoming more and more important even for product managers, honestly. So you're telling me that I can either learn how to code or I can tell people how to do the job to their job. No, that, that, that, that that's super cool because I think, you know, like Product managers will want to, or I should say prospective product managers. I think when you're a student club call shouldn't whatever you're trying to figure out. What can I do tangibly outside of school to boost, not even boost my resume, but boost my skills in a way that when I appear for an interview where I appear, and even in a conversation with somebody that's more experienced that I like, I at least seem like I know what I'm talking about. And so it sounds like learning sequel taking on these separate side gigs and just doing your work results, maybe results in a better future for people that want to be product. Yeah, definitely. And I would say, yeah, like go deep into some of the product frameworks out there as well. Like I I'm personally catching up on a lot of different things within the product cycle itself. And just started reading a new book also to get more exposure into that which is called cracking. Yeah, it's called cracking the PM courier. It's all by the same authors that wrote cracking the PM interview, which has been very famous. So they've just launched a new book this year in January. So just started reading that and I think that's extremely helpful as well. It's a pretty hefty book. It's, it's pretty pig. But but definitely recommend that cracking the PM career book. Okay. This is cracking the PM career by Gayle McDowell and Jackie Bavaro. Okay. Very cool. Thank you for that wreck. So I think taking a big picture, look at the industry. I think you are firmly in FinTech. Right, right. How early do you think we are in FinTech, distro, disruption of financial services, the financial industry, like the financial infrastructure that this country is run on? I think it's interesting that API APIs have been booming. Like the API business model has been booming ever since Stripe launched their not the first API business, but it's like one of the most lucrative API business models in recent memory. And now you're seeing a lot of these startups that are built entirely on this model. How early are we in this, in this sort of life cycle? I think we're still pretty early on comparatively. I think there's a lot more we could be doing with the FinTech industry, especially because I think last, last year I had attended the Finovate conference in New York where actually newer companies present their ideas. 60, 70 companies come present, their ideas are on FinTech. And what technology can do and even seeing those And talking and like seeing the big banks talk about how all the technologies are even bigger banks like Wells Fargo or chase or things like that. Still have a lot of legacy infrastructure in place. So, and that to change that it's not an overnight job either. So that's, that's where I think there's a lot more that needs to happen within the FinTech industry to first start from the top. Above as well, but also at the same time for us to be able to do a lot more things digitally now, because especially with COVID happening we've all seen how no one really wants to go in first and do all these things now, even for doing transactions or anything else. Everything they want to happen digitally. So I think there's an opportunity here for us to be able to do a lot of the stuff digitally now, and to make more advancements within the FinTech industry. So I think we're still at a pretty early stage where things like machine learning can actually enhance a lot of that FinTech industry as well. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. I think the other really interesting thing about your role is that it's located in North Carolina, your, your company is based out of. North Carolina, which, you know, when, when you say you work at a FinTech startup people, aren't going to think, Oh, it's, it's a, you know, it's an even in the East coast, but specifically in North Carolina, they think they, if you had to speak a little about that, what's right. So I think it's actually been pretty great. So just to give you an overview it's called the research triangle park in this area. The RTP it's called because of all the big research institutions. We have Duke university, UNC chapel Hill. I think a state where it's not at all three corners with them and some of the top companies, I have opposites here too, including Cisco. IBM. We have a huge offices here. So in DMS of veterans, it's actually pretty comparable to California, which is also pretty great. So that's why a lot of companies are moving to the RTP area just because the cost of living is less. First of all. And then there's a lot of tech, booming companies out here. And even in biotech, actually, it's, it's a big area for biotech here as well. And then just in general, I think it's a small enough place where. Everyone knows each other. So there's a huge network of founders co-founders here as well. Angel investors feel well. My co-founder is actually one of the Angelou investors in this area as well. So. I, I feel it's, it's blooming at a pretty rapid pace right now. And it's been very exciting to work in this area because the weather has been good. I've made a lot of different connections in terms of the people I meet. There's always opportunity to again, explore it opportunities within different. That company is here, because again, literally and then I don't know if you've heard of this company called Pendo as well. It's it was one out of Raleigh, North Carolina, and it's actually boomed completely within the product world as well. So. So they they're actually doing some frameworks for product as well. So again, they, they started off as a very localized company and they got so much seed funding and they're actually pretty big now. So. A lot of these Raleigh startup companies are now booming. And we first raised the Caesar investment. Oh. In the middle of a pandemic. Right. Thank you. So yeah, we raised it in the middle of a pandemic as well. Which is kind of crazy to think about where companies are actually not investing. So I think it's a, it's a pretty good idea to be in the cost of living is less. Everything is good. And even if you wanted to pursue higher education, all three universities. Duke chapel Hill and NC state are here as well. So in terms of resources too, you have a lot more in terms of what we offer. Hmm. I feel like it's just, it only takes one unicorn to bring in a place into perspective, you know? So it might be, my company could very well be your company that, yeah. Yeah. Do you think remote work is a net benefit or I guess really like a net negative for North Carolina. A good one. I think for remote benefit, I think it's been a net benefit for my company in general, just because we've been able to hire people from across smell across the state because we used to hire pretty locally before. So it's been a benefit for us as a company in general. And for me personally, yeah, it's been good because I don't have to travel to work and things like that, but also kind of missed the opportunity to talk to coworkers outside of work. Because then you have your own lunch sessions. You can just go pick up a coffee with a coworker in, in downtown Raleigh, things like that are the kinds of things I personally miss. But I think in terms of a business, if you're thinking remote work has actually been pretty good. Because you're saving on a lot of different costs even in Dalton's of office space and other things too. So that's actually been a complete benefit from that perspective. So it sounds like your startup has leaned in, into the, into the remote work trends slowly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We've been working remote since I would say about a year now. Yeah. Cool. Very cool machine. It's been incredible. I've learned a lot. I think I mean, there's, there's just a lot about product management and I'm always happy to talk to product managers because each one brings a different perspective. I think you could talk to one at a really big company and they'd say something completely different than one at a company your size. And I think there's lessons everywhere. So last question for you, which we like to ask all our guests, what's your favorite software that's ever been created? I would say actually and I'll take a name on the company too, was as actually the Amazon for me personally. Just if you see both sides of that, Okay. The first is the e-commerce side before the pandemic, even we were getting deliveries done within the span of two days. And imagine often, like during the pandemic, when Larry people did not want to interact with each other, that piece of software came in so handy. Just because people who just could not go out could get things delivered to them within a couple of days. And then from a cloud perspective as well if you think about it before the cloud infrastructure came into existence, startup companies had to put in so much capital to actually set up their whole infrastructure. And now within a couple of seconds, I would say they're able to set up instances globally. Within, let's say London, Europe wherever you want to go. I actually set up your own instance and it just does not take as much money now do, if you have an idea and you don't have that much capital do up your idea wins. So I think from bullets perspectives, from a cloud perspective and an even called them a software perspective, what they've done is actually revolutionalize the whole world. Because if you think about it, each country is using it right now. And at a vast scale too. So to be able to do that so quickly as well has been revolutionized at least for me personally and I, yeah. And I've used both sides to homicide and, and our, our company's infrastructure is also set up on AWS. And I think from a personal point of view I would also say just the ability to even do video calls, just because I say personally, I'm very far away from my family. So hearing the stories of my grandparents, where they just literally used to write letters and not hear back within four weeks and now being able to move to the U S and I'm able to FaceTime my mom back in India and just see her and not feel lonely now has been a massive change. So I think I personally wouldn't have been able to do a study abroad. Any of those things. If it wasn't for that piece of technology either. So I think Bryce leaning from that perspective too, I think that would definitely pop the charts. I got to have somebody, I mean, it's funny you say that I actually have somebody from, I have Jeff coming in next week on the, on the podcast. Yeah. So I'll ask you about this because it's, it's sort of crazy. Like people don't realize everything is powered by AWS and and so I'm hoping, I'm hoping he'll shed some light on that. Yeah. I would love to share that one. I would definitely and I think like leaving off of that, like I'll recommend one other book and it's actually by Jeff method wander. That's doesn't thing. A lot of people should read as well. I wonder, yeah. Oh God. Oh, invent and wander. Okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. Yep. So that's by Jeff basis. So one of our co-founders actually recommended that, so it is actually pretty good. So. We'll spend from that perspective and I'll put you guys in touch and this is what actually does. One of my goals with this podcast is to put all the guests in touch. So I'll add you to the Facebook group. Okay. All right. Thanks. I really appreciate it. And I, I learned a lot and I'm sure that the listeners have too, I will go ahead and include our machines. LinkedIn information and other contact information. And if you want to get in touch with her, you can. All right. Thank you, Hershey. Thank you. It was lovely talking to you today.