Crypto For Creators

Jenil Thakker is the founder of Coinvise - an open platform that enables creators to mint social tokens and build economic incentives around it. 

Coinvise - https://coinvise.co

Twitter - @0xjenil

Timestamps:

00:59 - Coinvise

02:03 - The significance of DAO’s

9:11 - Importance of decentralization 

12:19 - Level of crypto awareness in India

15:10 - Level of support from the Indian government

19:30 - How does Coinvise make money?

20:20 - NFT’s

24:31 - Turning fans into superfans

28:24 - First 100 users

30:18 - What is the biggest challenge ahead for Coinvise?

31:16 - Competition in the crypto space

33:58 - Design choices at Coinvise

35:18 - Favorite piece of technology


 Intro Music: “Pain is the Essence” remix by @AdiSoundsGood on Twitter

Transcript

0:00

But if I can like talk a little bit about this more is in vet too. There's this idea that if we compare, like, let's say Uber and Lyft, we think about it in a sense that, okay, there's going to be one. Right. And it's sort of like a zero sum game where you feel like either Uber is gonna, when are you doing lifts? Who's going to be in, but, but not all of them because there's a set of people. And, you know, whereas in crypto you can actually build positive sum games as a group. And we saw that with wall street bets with with the stock, you can actually, as a community, as a whole, you can win by working together instead of competing. So a lot of these projects that we see as competitors, we might end up actually working with them. If that works out because we'll see a lot more collaboration between these companies that may seem like a better, but when like there's a finite market size, it makes sense more to work together against. So general, thank you for joining us. When we're thinking of like how to start this, I feel like we could have started it with building in India, but really I want to get to Coinbase and what exactly it is you guys are doing there? What are you. Yeah. So the idea with calling wise, we started out was we wanted to bring the experience of either get coin or at least bringing the idea on power, giving power to communities and giving that experience to social. So we started out with the idea that we want to build something like a decentralized. For communities on the three. So how do we do that and how do we make that valuable? So a lot of these communities creating a token is one of the first steps of them becoming a Dao. And I think that's what a lot of people attribute value to. How do we have, like these communities aligned with whoever the community has created? Usually it's a. Right. And that's the idea of, we started out with giving like ability for people to like either put their nine to five jobs and start earning in social tokens, just sitting at home and being part of these multiple creative dolls. I think that's the long-term vision that we're going forward. So it's probably a mixed with mean a de-centralized Reddit and how you would see how Bitcoin works for developers. Right. Could you define what it is? Yeah. So a Dow is essentially a smart contract where a group of people can interact on chain transparently. It's essentially a smart contract that defines certain like rights powers and definitions that you can say, okay, this kinds of decision making is going to happen on chain. A lot of what, like real world activities like money making decisions like voting any kind of activity that you can attribute value to. We're now doing it on chain so that a third party can verify. Without like having to know these people who are running this Dow and we can have sort of this transparent decision making but then the company. So that's what a Dao is. It's a company on chain, like two foot, very simple. Right. That's super cool. I think a lot of mainstream press has been about. Oh, just what Bitcoin is. And that makes sense, right? Like that's the first level of understanding people need to have about decentralized cryptocurrency before they can start to stack these higher lit these higher layers on. But as far as smart contracts go, I think a lot of that is misunderstood. So maybe you could kind of illustrate like, what exactly can we do beyond just exchanging transaction and, and keeping a decentralized. Right. So essentially what smart contracts do is they maintain state on a chain, right? So you can go back and you can say, okay, this is the state that stored on this chain. And you can verify that state, just put simply, it's just a piece of code that maintain state on a chain that a third party can verify. And what's a chain it's really like if you look at data structures, a blockchain is really like a tree where there's branches, there's forks and there's even orphan branches. So when you're maintaining that state. It's really like it's about money, but it's, it's more than just like money. It's more like data, any kind of information that you can find on the internet can be stored on chain and that state can be preserved on chain at least until like it's history and you can trace it back all the way back in time or even create a Fort from it. So I think, I mean, we see Bitcoin in a lot of these currencies and there's too much focus on it, but it's going to be more like anything that's happening on the internet is essentially like it is valuable. There's going to be fun. So what can I do with ether that I can't do with Bitcoin? So the way we like to put it eater is probably like Bitcoin is probably like a store of value in ether is more like an internet native currency. You're probably not going to buy coffee, but Bitcoin, where you can buy a coffee with ether. So it's going to be like an internet native currency where you can like. Essentially do any kind of activity online on the internet, either buying or purchasing or even any kind of like small transactions, bigger transactions, it's going to be the native currency on on, on the internet. Yeah. So one thing which I, which I personally find very interesting is that okay. This, this is kind of into the weeds, but I'll, I'll, try to make it understandable to all of our, so there's this big debate about block size. So if you have big blocks, then essentially Bitcoin transactions are limited by how many transactions you can do per second. So if you have a small block side, A block is how many transactions you can fit. And it takes I believe five minutes on average to complete a single block. So if it takes like 20 minutes on average to buy a cup of coffee, that's just such a terrible user experience. People are just going to use their credit card, use traditional financial needs. So then there's this big debate of why don't we just make the block sizes huge so people can actually buy stuff. Bitcoin in a real world setting and a practical way, but this leads to another issue, which is now Bitcoin is not decentralized. If you have these gigantic blocks, that means that the amount of memory and the amount of CPU processing, it takes to be able to run something like Bitcoin is, it becomes, it becomes terabytes. And then the only people who are running it are companies like Google, Amazon, like these big enterprises. So that's no longer decentralized. Now you're going through a gatekeeper. So where do you, where do you wait and wait, where do you weigh in on this? Because personally, I. Because of the block size issue, at least for big mainstream currencies like Bitcoin, they can only be stores of value. They can't be transaction needs. I think they can be so here's, here's my thesis on it. I do see that a lot of people there's a lot of debate on the block size. I think it's more of a debate, like how many validators are verifying those transactions regardless of the size of the block size. And I think it also depends on the supply of Bitcoin and the supply feeder. I think up till now, the supply Peter's can be infinite, but the ERC triple one five, they're gonna make us apply finite, but coming back to Bitcoin if you compared to the traditional financial system in the U S there's this thing called fed wire, right? If you want to send a check, like it does say you want to write a million dollar check, just one, I think a more reliable and deterministic way or an accurate way to send someone could be, you could use the fed buyer. Right. But if you want to send like$10 or$5 for a coffee, you'd probably use it. Right. Did you send it to your friend? So there's always like these different layers that we've built. The application layer is probably when more, or a lot of these other PayPal or other apps that you use day to day. But then like if you trickle down to these layers on the bottom, there's a, there's the Fedwire that you would use for more valuable, more like high value transactions. Let's bring it back to crypto. Now, crypto is also like acting in a very similar race, obviously, like things are going to change with Bitcoin and it's a taproot, which is also like an interesting thing to delve deeper on, on how that's going to open up like an avenue for developers to build on top of it. But once that happens, we're going to have different like Governance mechanisms and incentives for building like either different chains or even scaling Bitcoin where you can either purchase your car, but Bitcoin, or at least high value transactions. Right. If you're going to buy a house or if you're going to buy, like pay for insurance or any kind of other habit of transaction, you could probably do it. Right. That, that, that actually makes sense. So essentially what you're saying is like these proposals for like the lightening level two level three network, aren't independent on the block size, right? Those could be used for smaller purchases that require less trust. Whereas the big ones that require more trust would go through the central. Blockchain directly. Right. And I think that's okay for now. I think, I don't think it needs to be like, so regarding like mining pools, right. That's that's more on like an algorithmic or like a conceptual level on how Bitcoin is designed. Right. If, if the collective like nodes are like, if there's a collective consensus on creating like a fork and if you could do a fork and create a new consensus, which we've seen like so many more times, like there's so many scam, like forks, and that claim to be like the real good coin, Toshi, the real Satoshi, but like, If, once we see a lot of that, if there's consensus, I think it's, it's possible. Like at the end of the day, it's like reaching like a level of like consensus where everybody agrees. Okay. Like this is something that like a disproportionate amount of reward is going to like mining farms in China. And that's becoming like to centralized, I think to some degree that's okay. Because that's how like traditional, like human networks work, but to de-centralize it further, we're gonna maybe look into more. Yeah, either forks aren't like different chains or different phones of consensus where we can reach an agreement of like creating a more decentralized structure on rewards and all of that stuff. Right. So going back to coin biased, you mentioned the word decentralized a few times when you were talking about what you guys were up to. Can you tell me why that's important? So a lot of like protocols, including client-wise the way we say it is, is it's more like progressive decentralization. If you look at our tech stack or if you look at like, just the way we operate in terms of like the tools that we use, it's semi decentralized, not like fully decentralized. And the way we say that is like, initially it's going to be more like web two is going to work with battery. It doesn't have to be fully decentralized because when you're actually building it, it comes at a cost of user expense. Right. And you still want to give like that vet two experience in web three? I feel like people are not sympathetic to like 15, even 15, second confirmation times when a trans person is going to expect it to be like Venmo, where it just goes through like magic. So, so preserve that experience and like, even at least have some interest on like bridging people from that about three. I think they need to work together. So. Progressive decentralization is something that will eventually be decentralized as we go further. As in when like the tech stack gets more decentralized in terms of like rivers storing our data, how we're like maintaining our tools that we've built wherever, like publishing it, or we publish it in on something like mirror. So like in all, all those aspects, once we do create a token, I think it's we're going to be like more decent. I really actually really liked that approach because I've seen a lot of crypto projects where they're pretty much entire selling point is, Hey, we're very decentralized. We're more decentralized than everyone else. And I don't really think about like user experience or feature side and none of them are, yeah, that's not a thing, but the thing is like more decentralized. Yeah. Necessarily a feature. There's this great VC. And he was he was also a blockchain developer before he got into the VC space. His name is Haseeb Qureshi he writes a great, great he wrote like a electric series about how Bitcoin works and he also writes about crypto and defy and all this other stuff. And yeah, what you said is you should actually be. Like no one talks about how decentralized is a trade off, you know, like a distributed ledger. That's very, very expensive and very, very complicated compared to a centralized ledger. So you should have a good reason for doing it. And the more decentralized things you throw out, the more expensive your tech stack becomes, the slower things become the worst user experience becomes. So you need to just balance, like, what is the minimum amount of de-centralization I need to achieve the goals of this project. Even like taking a step back further. I, we never, so we have a board where we say online where we say like, never use the words. So even if you go on Twitter, like we never use the words, decentralization too much. Walk chain, web three crypto. Because our rule is that never sell technology. So. Like if you go back to apple, right. They never sold a phone. They're just so they're just like short, beautiful people, like just running across like the tracks and like Albert Einstein and a lot of these figures, they just showed like what they're about. They, you never saw the technology. So we'll probably never do that. Or like, even if we do Google, progressively decentralized will never sell like missions. That don't mean anything. Like, just tell people like why that's simple. Yeah, right. So, yeah. So what is the level of crypto awareness in India? Right. I think it's, it's getting out just because Bitcoin is talked about a lot in the news. And I think Bobby gone MADEC network opened up the doors for India. At least in my experience. They've been like going at it for years. And today it's like, I think it's sports$11 billion. And I think that company, if they hadn't like opened up and gotten where they are, the VCs wouldn't be investing as like. As aggressively as they are today. Like what'd you say the company was called? What did they do? A polygon magic net. Okay. So I haven't heard of them. What did they do? So polygon is a side chain on the pterygium and it's a layer two solution that a lot of people use. I think it's one of the most popular ones or it's the closest alternative that most people choose. And we're also operating on claudicant. Too, I'm in polygon boats. So again, they're from India and I think they opened up the doors. And then there's also like if you go down south then there's defy dollar and a bunch of other companies that are operating, but like really polygon is the one that like broke the market cap of over$10 billion. And I think that was like the starting point. I was just gonna add, I was in a, I was in a clubhouse room with the polygon founder and he was explaining the extents extent that him and like other entrepreneurs in the crypto space five, six years ago, had to go to, to even get into sort of relevance and funding. And what's really interesting about India is you don't often see a$10 billion valuation for startups. In America it seems like every other week we're hearing about like like a new unicorn or whatever, but in India, Just by virtue of like the, the market dynamics and like the GDP and how much money people want to spend consumer spending and things like that. Getting that valuation is incredibly difficult. And for such a nascent technology like crypto to get to a$10 billion valuation is unbelievable. Yeah, those people are amazing. I think they really brought a lot of eyes and even like, even today, like I wake up every morning and there's a new ACO chapter of like a VC fund opening, even like, I mean, not, not to hyper optimize for investments, but just like in terms of like activity there's even like it's a little bit Morris. All the COVID 19 records were stored on polygon. It wasn't I can share the tweet with you later, but so there is some level of awareness, at least two people I think it's going to get like more stronger, but Yeah. Eventually, like if there's an awareness, I think that people are missing out. Like, I think it's helium or how what's the market capital material? I forgot. I think Bitcoin crossed a trillion. So obviously like it's missing out a lot on like the overall like defy economy. If India is not participating I think the sort of immigration of American VCs into India and then them actually visualizing it as like a great profit center for them is really interesting. So how much do you think them investing in being open to investing has sort of incentivize entrepreneurs in India to begin working or is that completely unrelated to what, what is sort of your guys's incentives? I think, I mean, the interest is still been there. I think the investments, it hasn't been as much of a blogger as much as like. There's there's just no, like who's gonna use it right. That it just wasn't like that stack available. Like just recently we started getting like PTM and, and a bunch of these other payment apps, like what us has been doing for years with PayPal. Like we just gotten used to it in the last three years. Like before that they were not QR codes, you had to pay in cash. I think over 60% of the economy is in cash. So I think it's still like a long way ahead. Like most people you would talk to would probably not know on how this works on like a deep level or at least on a fundamental level. And as long as like there's lack of awareness, there's going to be scams and scams. There's going to be a lack of trust and. One thing that we're known for is like there's clusters of trust, which is why there's like companies like data. And that have been like there for years. Right? Because again, it's trust, it's not, not about the product. Yeah. So I guess my follow-up is how much time do you, and like the other entrepreneurs, you know, in the crypto space, think about the government sentiment towards crypto. Cause I I'm always sharing news about that. You need, government feels such way about it this way about it. It seems to flip all the time. So how much time do you guys spend sort of navigating. I think it's it's religious exit, right? Once you like decide to do a company and then you see your religious, like, okay. If it's easier for me to like incorporate a Delaware C Corp, why don't I just do that? Like, you can still do that, but for sitting from India, if you're just unclear about India. So it's, it's really a lot of problem for founders. If they really want to put in the work, it's, it's more of a pro problem for the India to like losing out on that GDP. Right. So, this is also the beauty of cryptocurrency actually, bef so before cryptocurrency came about, I think there were something called eagled and I think it wasn't like the nineties and the secret service came. And they arrested the guy who made it. He went to prison for like five years, because like, according to the U S constitution, only the U S government has the right to meant to currency. It's like very illegal. So everyone who put their money into eagled, they went under. So there were a few other crypto attempts after that. Not crypto attempts, a few other currency attempts after that, but nobody put any money. Nobody trusted them because they saw it happen with the first crypto the first digital currency. So by doing the decentralized blockchain Satoshi completely solved that problem. It was, there was no one person you could take down. So now, now, like, especially with Bitcoin and ether being at the levels of scale that they are, no government could take down a single cryptocurrency. Yeah. I mean, they're still looking KYC and they're still like, you know, they're still like keeping it under check, like it's right, right. You know, like if you're doing transactions, we just, we still want to know who you are and what you're doing at all times. Right. So they can take you down, but they can like take you down, like at least like prosecute you for doing like something that they don't want you to do. Like even if you see, like in India, there's over a billion dollars. Lockton D five protocols and almost all of it. Like at least a lot of these companies are like outside, like domiciled outside of India. Think about how much money they're losing out on. And I'll give you an example over, like, I think there was a country in over like 40% of their total economy was entirely from crypto. Wow. So it's just crazy. So if there's no regulations, then it's just, you're losing out on money. Yeah. Right. Yeah, I've been reading what biology's been writing about like Indian crypto and it's super fascinating. He's basically lobbying the Indian government to completely take advantage of crypto and become crypto first in terms of their tech stack and become like the, you know, the new power of the world. I don't know if has been falling down a lot. I have, yeah, I've been following it like extremely closely just because it's like, I'm vested my interest in it, but yeah. Like long-term, I'm optimistic about it. But right now, like the power is in the hands of people that just graduated high school. Couldn't complete college. So it's hard for them to like understand crypto. It's it's gonna be more like, let me copy and paste it from European or us regulations and or, or like an extension, like what FEMA rules for foreign exchange. And it's going to look a lot similar to that. If regulations came into picture. I wanted to go back to Coinbase. I wanted to ask you, how do you guys make money? So we make money through like incentive. We don't charge for tools that we build. So like token mending, again, like the core idea was that we would want to any take any cuts. Right? So how do we make money? So we have transaction fees on eyedrops. We have transaction fees on group board creation on NFC creation and separately, if they're are working. Personally with the community, helping with token design, token economics, helping them create a Dow and maintain treasury, a lot of those processes. Then we keep a percentage of their total supply of these tokens. But again, that is only like, when it makes sense for us to like participate in this communities and reporting like additional, like effort into it. But otherwise token creation is like completely a freebie. We earn money through like eyedrops and other incentives that we. So how long have you guys been at NFTs? Entities was pretty recent. I think we announced it on March 11th on Ethereum and polygon. It was in an Etsy marketplace where you can buy and sell it. And I think the core idea with NFTs that ties along with social tokens was ownership that you can have these sort of like fractional or non fractional ownership of these NFTs. And that represent like some kind of like, let's say, if I'm making a revenue of X amount of dollars or tokens that can be split into the owners at the end. And like there going to be so many other mechanisms that could be built around ownership. So I think that idea was like worth exploring and doing we're going to see being more mainstream even then, like more so than buying and selling. So the contract, the contract will say, I own. You know, this amount of equity in this project or this company or whatever. And you can, you can sell that token to other people if they want to that NFT to other people. And the contract will automatically distribute the money to the bank account of the holder of the car, of the token. Yeah. Holders of the token. So let's say you're a 5% owner of the NFT. Somebody else's 60% somebody else's 20%. It automatically gets distributed. And even then there's royalties. So I'll give you an example. There was this artist that did a music album and that music album wasn't in it. All the people that were interested, or like at least saw that album being a success. They bought shares of that album as NFTs. So after it got successful, all these people that invested in it get a revenue shares of whatever that album makes. Let's say that album makes$1 million.$1 million gets distributed into all of its own. In perpetuity. So it's enrolled in. So as many times it gets listened in the future. So let's say today, if you're watching friends or the office on Netflix, there's most watched shows, right. If you would have invested in it and had, if that was an NFL, fractional shares, you'd be earning in royalties, like in production. Right. This is this, this is what I this is what I found to be the most compelling part of NFTs when they first went mainstream in January, which is, I mean, yes, we, we have to address the elephant in the room that a lot of it is just like I buy it so I can sell it so I can just like, hold it until I can find someone else to buy it from more than me. So there's a lot of annuities, insurance being sold without any inherent value. You know, if you're contributing some kind of thing. If you're watching a show or if you're listening to our music, you're doing something for the artist and he's making a lot of money and you're not aligned with the success. But like if you're owning like the NFC shares, you can be aligned with him. If they get successful, you do to in two apps. W what I, what I find the most compelling about this, though, is that we can shift towards a model. Instead of having to make money off of people through advertising, which sucks and is essentially trying to fool you into buying something, which you don't even want. You can shift to a model where if you make something that people like and more people like will like it in the future, and it becomes more and more successful. That is enough. To make money. So your fans can buy into your level of success. And as the thing becomes more successful, they can shell sell theirs and then you get paid off of the transactions. Yeah, I think it just makes like the creation, that being a creator, being an artist very, very interesting and opens a lot of revenue doors. It's also more along the lines of it's it's it's not limited to like specific type of artist. It's more like it's freedom, right? You can, you can be a part of these multiple groups of people instead of committing to one job, you can just be a part of these multiple groups and start investing, or like taking like contributing some kind of value towards it. And then you can essentially quit your full-time job. And that's, that's going to be like the ultimate goal where you should be able to do that and work with freedom. Like you work on your own schedule and on like terms, and we're going to enter this like new age of like gig economy where it's just, it's completely. Right. It's much easier to monetize your, whatever it is you're doing exactly. Yeah. Yeah. For us. And I have recently spoken more about this idea of like super fans. And it sounds like if, if I were to buy into some artists that I was just a regular fan of theirs, but I ended up buying a piece of their NFT that almost triggered me into becoming a super fan because now I'm invested in the long-term because I'm receiving royalties or dividends. It's like. A reminder, every time I receive a dividend that while I'm actually a super fan of this person, even if I wasn't before, just because of their music I wanted to go back to this word you kept using, which is community. You almost refer to your potential customers or existing customers as a community. And I was actually on your discord and I noticed it's super vibrant. It's very engaging. What role does having this discord or referring to them as a community? Like what is the significance of that? So, I mean, if you want you to like, like even a group of people or even like a company completely on the internet, it's, it's defined more like either if it's on the web too, it's a startup or a company or if it's like, you know, just one purpose tying all of you guys together, it's more like a community, but like those definitions are going to blur away. I think we're going to see a lot more like either Dows or either collect. And I think like an initial example that I personally saw was like GCM. When they started out, I think they started out with like 10 30 people at once and it blew up to like 3000 people discord. And even more today, it was just this idea of like meeting cool people in the bay area or not even the, in the barrier. Like then it grew out like the entire world and the only thing United them was that being able to network because everybody was quarantined. That's why we call them committees. Got it like collectively, there's no market cap for them. There's, there's like exchange of value, but there's nothing like you can point to that says like, okay, this is what's worth what a token does for these communities. It's just adds a value to them that you wouldn't see in conventional startups or companies. So that's why we refer to them as collectives communities are towels. Right. Do you consider your discord community as sort of in-built distribution for future products that are going to release or even existing? I think we Mo we see it more as a term of like either being doused for other smaller dials. Like we want to be that sort of structure where we can transfer hardly do any kind of thing that we want to do. Like posting a reward talking to people, hosting AMS doing sessions Even like sharing updates, like any single activity that we want to do, we can do it like in an open manner. And I think this court enables to do that. I think eventually there's going to be Cloudamize is going to be a place where people are going to just explore. But until Daniel, like, we're going to see a lot of these, like communities stay on telegram or discord. What do you think was your tips and tricks for building a solid committee? I think, I mean, initially Peter pan I think has really great ideas on that. And one of the things that I learned is like, there's, there's core values that unite people, like, why do, why do you care? Right. If you're a part of this Partially self-interest, but it's also like something bigger than yourself. Like you see something bigger than yourself and there's a bit of self-interest you. And once, once those things combined, and everybody can come together, like there was this example, like even FWP or even memes there was this group of people that were just sharing beams and that like created like 10,000 people in the discord, which is just insane. So if you can collectively find like one thing that everybody shares, okay, this is cool. If you can find, let's say a hundred people that says NFTs are cool and we want to collect them. You have a community. So you need to find that one or two things that collectively you guys can point to that says, okay, this is what our purpose is. And this is why like, I should care as a course. Right. And that makes a lot of sense, right? If you guys are early in the curve in India, four were some of the first people who are looking at NFTs and seeing this crazy potential that they have for fan base and community and all these other things. And imagine that. People like that would want to link up and want to talk to each other about what they see as the future. Yeah, exactly. And in the more, like, I think with, with COVID and people are trying to stay more on the internet, so it's like, it's gotten a little easier there, right? So actually I'm building something right now and I'm having trouble, like, you know, how do I get the best a hundred people onto the platform and, you know, have them again, have them give me their feedback, et cetera. So on day one, when you're building coin buys, how did you outreach and get or convince a hundred people to join that discord? Or was it really easy and just organically? I think it was more organic. But, but I think the initial thing was that we talked about the idea, a lot of what we're building and why it's important to people and why it's important to me and our team and why that's going to bring value to them and why it's going to be useful to people. Like we conveyed that a lot on Twitter. And we had a few people, like a few people that were like sharing it and like really believe it. And that really helped us, that really helped us like get that outreach and have people join our discord. And then there was like, the friction of joining a discord is a little more, but like, it's, it's not that much. Like you're not asking them to sign up, like for early access on a website, like joining a discord is much easier than like, get doing like an early access link. So that's what we were doing. And I think that worked out for us where we could communicate the idea that we worked with a few friends and like the community organically developed from. Like getting the first people, a hundred people is the hardest part after that. Like it just like, if it's strong enough, it's going to grow. And the network facts started. Okay. I've actually heard this before. This is how you, this is like the funnel for getting people to use your product is first you go on a platform where everybody is like Twitter or Facebook, whatever. Then they go to your platform, which is your podcast, your discord, your subreddit, whatever. And then they use. Right. So we didn't want to like, do kind of formal kind of thing where we have like, get early access or like stuff like that, where you would just put your email and then you would just wait until like they messaged you, you were just like, Hey, join your discord. And, and, you know, we'll like chat about like, what's what's next and that's it right. Like extremely low friction. So keep them engaged. The product ready yet, but they still are dreaming with you. Yeah, exactly. So would you say that the biggest challenge ahead for coin bias is getting creators on the platform or getting a supply of people willing to buy what the creators are putting out. There's already a lot of creators. I think there's going to be more, eventually everyone is going to be a creator. I think our definitions of creators are too narrow. I think to some degree, everybody is a creator, but I think it's, it's not a lack of resources or lack of privilege is more like, lack of like, how do we make them make the argument that this could be like something that's exponentially more useful than what they're currently doing. And if you can communicate that message and then eliminate the learning curve, like, okay, this is how you use metal mask. This is how you would interact with tokens. If we can get those two things and like really convince them that this could be like more useful, or at least like give them like. An avenue for them to do this really simply, but calling my stars, I think that's going to change the gears for them and make the switch. I'm not really familiar with the space in India, but do you guys have any direct competitors you're competing with? So. Not a lot, particularly in India, but when you're in crypto, like the competition is more global because you're competing on like chains. So like who's on attorney, who's on polygon. Right. It's, it's more like it's less location specific. It's more like worldwide in the sense that crypto like eliminates borders completely. Right. Which is kind of the whole point. So I think like Roland valley are probably the two closest that come to, like what we're doing in terms of competitors. Interesting. But like, if, if I, if I can like talk a little bit about, about this more is in vet too. There's this idea that if we compare, like, let's say Uber and Lyft, we think about it in a sense that, okay, there's going to be one. Right. And it's sort of like a zero sum game where you feel like either Uber is gonna, when are you doing lifts? Who's going to be in, but, but not all of them because there's a set of people. And, you know, whereas in crypto you can actually build positive sum games as a group. And we saw that with wall street bets with with the stock, you can actually, as a community, as a whole, you can win by working together instead of competing. So a lot of these projects that we see as competitors, we might end up actually working with them. If that works out because we'll see a lot more collaboration between these companies that may seem like a better, but when like there's a finite market size, it makes sense more to work together against. So that's a, that's a really interesting framework. You're almost saying like the other group, the, the people on the other side of the, sort of the water do not see us as somebody taking their lunch, you know, we could theoretically add to our values. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So I think that, yeah, I think that it absolutely makes sense when you're kind of early, when you're early in this space, which obviously has huge potential. Yeah, my last company, we made 3d printers for the dental industry. People would always ask us who our biggest competitors were. And I could say, yeah, like there are other 3d printers who we're competing with, but those are not a real company. Our real competitors are dental mills or dental labs, or people are just traditional dentistry. Like we're trying to get dentists who use an old piece of technology to migrate to a new piece of technology. Right. We're not competing with the other new piece of technology. All of us. When market awareness goes off. Exactly. So we're competing with probably like a lot of these, about to social protocols, like, you know, Instagram, Reddit, Patrion Gumroad yeah. Got it. Yeah. I remember reading a statistic, which is like in America, less than 5% of businesses fail because of competition. They fail for other reasons. So rarely competition that affects their success. I think one sort of you admit the key thing I wanted to bring up. Something I found really interesting is the actual design on your website for Coinbase. You guys have designed it as a feed. So as soon as you go on the page, And so you can just scroll down and see what people have created. You know, how many tokens have been social tokens have been airdropped or I guess it's been built. As far as like you starting to design, that was a, an intentional choice. How did you guys decide that it should be a feed? You know, it, wasn't thinking before. I think the thinking behind that was like we could either have a bunch of texts and wait for people to click. Okay. Go to app, which is what a lot of these DFI protocols do. Some don't some do or we could just show the product and let the product do the talking. And one of the problems that we were trying to figure out was that how do we show people? It was never about the tools. Like tell me what you can do with social tokens and how do we show like what you can do with them instead of creating them. So we just wanted to show the utility of these tokens. And as soon as you go on the website, you can scroll through a list of bounties. You can scroll through a list of NFTs and that's, that's like basically utility of what you can do with them. So we wanted to show like, okay, let the product do the talking instead of like putting texts instead of putting like random words and like a really like big ambitious, like, you know, like mission statements that don't really mean anything. It's just let the product of that. So it sounds the idea. So general yeah, really appreciate you joining us. We like to wrap up our episodes by asking this question, which is, what is your favorite piece of technology either in recent memory or of all time? I think what I, what I'm really excited about today that I, I don't see a lot of people talking about outside of crypto is comma. I really like what they're doing with self-driving cars. It's basically like, if even if you have a Toyota, you can like plug in comma into your car and that's gonna make it self-driving. Which is just insane. And I think they are probably one of the most strongest, like new neural networks out there as just a developer. I like to read a lot more into it. So I'm really excited about like where this is going for like self-driving cars, because if we can fix self-driving cars, I think that's the closest to what we can get to like a really strong AI model. We need to try to solve that problem. You're really solving a human problem where you're working with figuring out, you know, the physics of like how we perceive distance, how we perceive speed, how we react to that. And if you can fix that problem, we're getting really close up humans work and creating like a strong BI model. So I'd really recommend like, if people don't know what that is, like look into comma AI. It's really cool. C O M M S C O N M a.org. No, they're, they're actually super cool. And the guy behind it, the founder is this guy named George, George Hotz. And he's like one of them. Best program or separate live? In my opinion, like when he was like, when he was like 14 years old, he jailbroke, he was the first one to jailbreak the first iPhone. Right. Then he was like, no, that's when he was like, he was a teenager, he was in high school and then he did a bunch of other crazy stuff. He's one of the first people to hack the PlayStation. He, yeah, he just built a bunch of wild stuff. And you can go on his Twitch and he has these sessions where he'll just code for 12 hours straight. I'll just be like begging on his keyboard. He'll like, like when you see those Hollywood movies of like people hacking and you're like, that's not how hacking works. That's how he codes. It's like the most impressive thing. So I'd recommend that. Check out comment on AI and also check out George Hotz is coding streams. Like they're really, really cool, but he's their background music or anything, or is it just him in a dark room? It's usually it's pretty well lit, but yeah, essentially just him just banging away at his keyboard and explaining what he's doing. He's just like, he'll say things like, oh, you know, so today we're just going to build we're going to build the basic self-driving system from scratch and he'll just code it up over like 10 hours and you'll see him like literally go from like, okay, Python three is a real pain. Let's see, how do I do this basic syntax to actually building it out over the course of 10 hours. It's like really, really amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It's good content. It's good content. I'll say that. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. A great formative. Cool. Thank you. Thank you, Jeff. That was amazing. Thanks guys. That's our episode for this week. Thank you so much for listening. Make sure to subscribe to us and rate us on Apple podcasts. We would really appreciate the support. You can also follow me on Twitter at F Z from Cupertino and Busan. The ad next facade. See you guys next week.