S2 E4 James Adonopoulos and academic wellbeing

Prof James Adonopoulos is the Academic Dean of Kaplan Business School and Kaplan Professional.  Listen to James discuss academic wellness and lifetime learning; teaching best practices and KBS; making education culturally relevant; wellbeing and only study; and his 3 proudest achievements.

In PART ONE, James defines academic wellness as activities that makes you feel good and gives your meaning.  Feeling good for many persons is learning.  That's why KBS endorses the Lifetime Learning Guarantee. It encourages alumni to attend all classes in the course in which they graduated.   Read more at 'Lifelong learning: 4 Benefits to Help Your Career Thrive'.   Feeling good may also meaning taking a career break. How do you know when to take a break?  Listen to your body for the signals that you've gone too far.

In PART TWO, James explains the high standard with which students rank the quality of KBS teaching practices.  Learn how KBS outranks all Australian public universities on teaching quality.  James is convinced that KBS teaching quality is based on genuine academic compassion and nurturing learning environments.

In PART THREE, James discusses the cultural relevance of education with the internationalisation of KBS courses.  The courses are designed to embrace ideas from many countries, with a diversity of people, and with a penchant for engaging all students and teachers in active dialog.  Indeed, a genuinely active dialog has shaped the teaching culture at KBS.

In PART FOUR, James relates academic wellbeing with online study.  Class are online.  Also online are mentoring, academic support, and student services.  He notes how KBS delivers online education as a extension of classroom delivery, not as a replacement for on-campus classes.   It is a innovative delivery model where KBS is leading the education industry.  For additional ideas,  read Forbes, '8 Innovative Ideas for Higher Education Right Now' by Brandon Busteed.

Lastly in PART 5, James reflects on his 3 proudest achievements.  Listen to hear his personal reflections.

TIMELINE

00:46  PART ONE Academic wellness and lifetime learning
02:05  James' advice for academic wellness
03:28  Effectively managing time and study habits
07:19  Lifetime Learning Guarantee
08:38  Benefits to alumni of the Lifetime Learning Guarantee
09:48  Sustaining wellness for high-achievers
12:07  Knowing when to take a career break

13:38  PART TWO Teaching best practices at KBS
14:08  How benchmarks position KBS
15:36  KBS teaching quality benchmarks
16:09  KBS student support benchmarks
17:18  COVID-19 Student Welfare Plan

19:38  PART THREE Making education culturally relevant
19:47  Internationalisation of the KBS curriculum
22:28  Perilous assumptions of cultural relevance
23:45  Breaking the mould in accounting
22:57  The 'KBS Way'
28:26  Quality of online student experience
30:00  Quality of teaching and learning
32:39  Teaching culture at KBS

33:43  PART FOUR Wellbeing and online study
37:14  Excellence in graduate outcomes
39:00  KBS graduate success in the job market
41:36  Employing lecturers with industry experience

44:02  PART FIVE James' proudest achievements
44:20  Building industry credibility for KBS
45:52  Leading educational innovations
46:57  Establishing professional relations with regulators

Transcript

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The Kaplan Community podcast is a platform
 for the wider Kaplan community

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to share ideas and insights 

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that can guide us on our professional
 and academic development.

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It's easy to listen
 to tackle some hard hitting issues,

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and we think it's a great way
 to appreciate diverse perspectives on life

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learning and careers. Hi,
 my name is James Adonopoulos.

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I am the Academic Dean from Kaplan
 Business School and Kaplan Professional.

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I'm responsible for the strategic
 direction of our academic function.

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So I feel quite privileged
 to be in a role like this,

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where I can make a difference to the lives
 of thousands of students every year.

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Today to continue our series on mental
 health and wellbeing.

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We welcome Professor James
 at Annapolis, academic

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dean of Kaplan Business School
 and Kaplan Professional.

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Thank you for joining us, James.
 Thank you, Kiran. Thank you, Richard.

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There's a lot we'd like to learn from you
 and a lot to discuss.

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I'd like to start off
 with your perspective on academic will be

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so different ideas around
 how someone can maintain wellbeing

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while prioritizing academic success.

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And yourself as somebody
 who has been a successful student

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many times in your life. 

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How do you think students can manage their
 time and work life balance successfully?

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Look, it's a tough one,
 especially because I know that

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I am not a role model in this respect.

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So the way that I work
 and the way that I structure

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my life is definitely not how I would
 recommend that anybody else does it,

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because it would not be sustainable
 for a majority of people who, for example,

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may have a partner or may have kids
 or may have other responsibilities

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or interests or passions
 that they're pursuing 

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that are just as important 

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you might be or even more important
 when it comes to family.

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So my advice really in regard to wellness

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is for academics to identify
 what makes them feel good.

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That's it. So what makes you feel good?

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So for some, that might mean exercise.

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For others, it may be music. 

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For others, it may mean reading. 

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For others, it may mean television.

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I think conventional wisdom is
 that you have to exercise every day

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or you have to do crossword puzzles
 every day to strengthen

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your mind, or you have to make sure
 that you meditate or take time off.

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And I, I really dislike
 that kind of advice.

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I feel like it doesn't
 always work for everyone.

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So my suggestion would be find out
 what makes you feel good

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and make sure that you make time for that

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with enough frequency to feel as though

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your life has meaning,
 to feel as though your life has value.

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So if watching television
 is what fulfills you, then

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watch television,
 like make time to watch TV every day.

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You know, if what makes you feel good

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is to do exercise
 or to hang out with friends

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or to go for weekends,
 well, identify what it is

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and make sure that your
 life is not absence of it.

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That's my advice
 in terms of academic honors, 

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in terms of the student factor,
 can you repeat that question, Kiran? Yes.

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So I just wanted to know,
 what might you recommend, as you've done

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a lot of study in your life, so
 might you recommend, if you have any tips,

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study habits, how to manage
 time for a student?

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Yeah, you know, I remember 

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I would have been maybe 15, 20 years ago.

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It was my first real
 full time corporate job.

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And I had this manager
 who had been a high school teacher.

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So she'd had a bachelor of Education. 

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She then completed her master of law.

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And then while she was my manager,
 she enrolled in an MBA.

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And I remember saying to her,
 why would you do that?

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You know, like you really have one degree.

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At that point, I didn't even have one. 

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So I was I was a late student.

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It wasn't until I was in my late 20s that
 I even thought about going to university.

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So in my mind, there
 was just no point to it.

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And I asked it like, why? 

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Like, why would you keep going
 back to university?

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And her response? 

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I've never forgotten. 

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Her response was,
 if you look at a qualification

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simply in terms of what
 you'll get at the end of it.

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So if you start it and all
 you can really think of is finishing it,

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that's going to be torture. 

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And it'll be it'll be
 a horrible experience.

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I had very little to your life questions.

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If you instead look at higher education
 as what is adding to my life today.

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So what impact is having on my life?

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What am I learned this week or via
 this reading or via this lecture?

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But why are these anything? 

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That I'm able to think about
 and applied in my life, in my work today.

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Suddenly, she says, higher
 education is not at all about finishing

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higher education suddenly become this
 integrated part of one's life.

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And as soon as that happens,

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it ceases to be a burden,
 but it ceases to be this obligation.

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Instead, it just becomes this is part of
 your daily practice is habit.

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Now, that, for me
 was genuinely transformative.

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How can a baby, you know, only five
 or six times that I've been giving

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that I've been given advice 

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that I have tried to always comply with,
 and that's been one of them.

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And so it's because of her that I enrolled
 in my first degree, you know,

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is because of her that I've continued

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to enroll in degree after degree,

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because I don't see it as something
 that I have to complete transactionally.

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I don't know. James, that leads me
 to the question about lifetime learning.

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So we've talked a bit about that. 

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And KB's has recently made available
 subjects for lifetime learning for alumni.

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Now, my question would be, 

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in your mind, how would alumni best
 make use of lifetime learning?

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And specifically,
 what is lifetime learning mean to you?

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So what it means to me? 

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Yes. What it means to me
 is that it's negligence,

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I think, for any provider
 of higher education to think that

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a student's learning ends upon
 the completion of their qualification.

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Because it's not free. 

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It's unclear. Some of the greatest
 learning happens afterwards.

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And also, I think, negligent

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to assume that what a student

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is taught throughout a three year
 qualification or a two year qualification,

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whatever it is, is enough to sustain them
 throughout their career. It's not.

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And so what our what
 our lifetime of learning guaranteed us

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a captain business school
 is it acknowledges

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that there's much more that students

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have to learn after they graduate,
 because we're still learning.

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We're always still learning. 

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That's why we're always making changes
 to our curriculum.

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That's why we're always making changes
 to our assessments.

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And so they're always making changes
 to our pedagogical style. Right.

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So we're always making changes because
 we're always learning something new.

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That's what work is like. 

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That's what life is like. 

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And so what a lot of Mullany guaranteed
 does is it offers students,

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offers alumni to benefits

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that definitely don't exist
 elsewhere in Australia.

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No other institute of higher
 and higher education

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in this country offers
 these two benefits to alumni.

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But to our understanding,
 we don't think there's any institute

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of higher education
 globally that offers these two benefits.

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And we feel that way because
 at this year's Pioneer Awards, which is

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the world's most sophisticated awards
 platform for international education,

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we're a global finalist
 in the progressive education

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delivery category, specifically
 for this little malony guarantee.

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Latinum of lending guarantee
 basically offers the true benefits.

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And one of those is that forever

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alumni able to come back and meet
 with a careers coach one on one

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to get feedback on their CV, feedback
 on their cover letter to be introduced

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to prospective employers, to practice
 the interview techniques and so on.

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But more more consequential is
 the second is the second benefit,

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which is that our alumni
 are not just enabled, but encouraged

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to continue to attend
 the live online classes

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of any subject of the course
 from which they've

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graduated forever and for free.

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So what that means is
 a student who's enrolled

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in, say, our most popular course,
 which is the MBA.

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Only has to complete
 12 subjects to graduate.

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But there are 39 subjects in the NBA
 and you could be electives.

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Well, after they graduate. 

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They can continue to come back and attend
 whichever classes they want

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from any of the 39 subjects,
 not just the 12 they happen to complete.

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Actually, James,
 if I can follow up on your

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your first point, you've really made me
 think about my own life and sort of

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how I envisioned my 30s,
 if that makes sense.

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You identified that you're
 in a space in your life

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where you can push
 productivity levels high and then others,

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someone who may have 

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other priorities or dependent children,
 might not be suited for this.

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And that's great for their journey. 

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But many of our students
 also want to push it to the limits.

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They want to put in the hard
 work in their 20s

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or 30s, reach certain goals.

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You've said unsustainable when it
 when it came down to this lifestyle.

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And I agree. But how can somebody know

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when they may need
 to take a break or slow down?

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But I'll preface I'll preface this
 by saying to anyone listening

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to be very, very careful
 which expert you listen to.

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Right. So be very,
 very careful about articles or interviews

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with CEOs who, quote
 unquote, can do it all.

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And what does what does
 articles really tell you

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is that they have a full time
 when they have a full time gardener

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and a full time personal assistant.

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None of us can do it all. 

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It's physically impossible. 

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It's physically impossible. 

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And anyone who tells you
 about any motivational speaker,

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any motivation or any life coach
 who pretends to tell you

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that you can do whatever you want,
 you can achieve anything you wish

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is fundamentally being untruthful
 and you cannot trust them.

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That's not the world that we live
 in. It's not realistic.

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So that's why prioritization is important.

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So for me to be productive
 from a work perspective,

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and I definitely like I know I know
 for a fact I'm extremely productive

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from a work perspective, is
 because I have to sacrifice other aspects

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of my life that I don't value
 as much as other people do.

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So I'm I feel happy and content
 sacrificing them

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to do the work that I do
 to be productive in the work that I do.

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So that's the preface
 for me to answer your question, which is

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how do you know if you're reaching a
 point where you need a break?

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Well, step one is to make sure
 that you're not being fooled.

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By people who make you believe
 that you can do it all because you cannot

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have a think about whether you are
 taking on too much unnecessarily.

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And the second is to listen to your body. 

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So listen to your body
 when you might find yourself, for example,

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placing your head into your palms,
 she frequently listen to your body.

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If you happen to find yourself sleeping in
 in a way that you never used to

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listen to your body,
 if suddenly you feel yourself

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getting aches or pains or rashes
 that you never previously had .

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That could be symptomatic
 of stress or anxiety.

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So that would be my advice,
 you know, when to pull back,

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because your body will give you a signal
 that you've gone too far.

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And if you neglect that signal, then
 there's oftentimes a greater sacrifice

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than the would have been earlier
 had you just prioritized more effectively.

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James, we we know that international
 students, particularly according

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00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:25,120
to surveys in Australia recently,
 that the number one source of anxiety

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00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,720
among most of them
 would be this pressure to succeed.

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00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:33,280
So you've really addressed the support
 that you would advise

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00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,440
on helping international students
 to get through their studies with us.

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00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,640
We also do a well
 with the international benchmarks.

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00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,080
So particularly you
 mentioned the pie awards. 

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00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,760
But I'm wondering now the benchmarks
 from the Australian government of students

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00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,560
who particularly our postgrad students
 who rate our teaching practices

215
00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:57,080
almost 10 percent higher than comparable
 higher education providers.

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00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,920
So can I ask you, what teaching practice
 do you think KB's lecturers

217
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:06,360
and our support staff do better than
 the other higher education providers?

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00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:13,280
Yeah, maybe. Let me elaborate
 on that statistic in particular,

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00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,840
because what makes it special is
 that it's not us

220
00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:19,760
describing ourselves. 

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00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,720
It's our students describing
 us, and is, to my understanding,

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00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,000
the largest type of student satisfaction

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00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,840
survey done in any country on the planet,

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00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,480
like the sample size
 is almost 300000 students.

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00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:40,360
Almost every institute of higher education
 in Australia participates in it.

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00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,200
And on the metric of teaching quality,

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00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,840
it's true that we outrank our competitors
 by 10 percent or whatever it is.

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00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,160
But the reality is we actually rank higher

229
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,800
than every single public university
 in this country.

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00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,720
So students oftentimes will look at these,

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00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,400
you know, these rankings
 like the Financial Times

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00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,760
rankings and so on, and think,
 oh, you know, I want to go through this

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00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:08,960
prestigious university because it's highly
 ranked in the times or whatever it is.

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00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:14,440
And they go there and realize, oh,
 it may look like on their resume,

235
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,080
but their experience
 as a student is horrible.

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00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:22,200
Hence, why a majority of our students
 come from public universities.

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00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,280
They've gone to public
 universities, experience for teaching

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00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,880
their dislike and for, oh, this is

239
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,000
this is incongruent with the the brand.

240
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,960
At the public university campus,
 so I'm thinking already

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00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,720
we are ranking Republican officials, but
 we also in the top three business schools

242
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,840
in this country, which I think is
 an astonishing statistic for us.

243
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:47,920
So your question is what makes us 

244
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,400
be able to perform
 so well in regard to teacher quality?

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00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,440
And I am convinced that it is

246
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,240
that our faculty has embraced

247
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:01,960
a supportive and nurturing

248
00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,760
learning environment,
 but a genuinely supportive

249
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,440
and nurturing learning environment.

250
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,240
And we know that's true,
 because in the exact same surveys,

251
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:18,600
we also rank every single
 public university on the metric of student

252
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,480
support and have done
 so now for three consecutive years.

253
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,840
So we know that when
 it comes to the teaching of students,

254
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,640
we don't at all believe
 that our job is just to stand

255
00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,880
at the front of the classroom
 and talk at students.

256
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:36,560
That's not being supportive. 

257
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,120
That's not being nurturing. 

258
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,080
Be supportive and nurturing
 is being compassionate.

259
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:46,880
So if we're teaching online, for example,
 and students have their cameras off,

260
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,280
which can be annoying and frustrating, 

261
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,600
we understand at the latest science
 in relation to that

262
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,640
is that oftentimes it's because students
 are feeling a sense of shame

263
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,840
because of their surroundings,
 because of their housemates,

264
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,320
because of noisy kids or whatever

265
00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,240
it might be, whatever it is,
 I feel some sense of shame.

266
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:09,600
So we have to be compassionate. 

267
00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:11,280
And in response to that. 

268
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,160
If a student is going through a
 personal a personal problem.

269
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,160
And my goodness, like 

270
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,640
like it is one cohort of human beings

271
00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:25,720
that's been affected by COVID 19 more so
 or as much as any other.

272
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,920
It would have to be international students
 have to be, but they were given

273
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,440
pretty much zero government support
 throughout all of twin.

274
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,160
Well, we have to be compassionate,
 and we were hence

275
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,760
why we launched our Covid
 19 student welfare plan,

276
00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:45,200
which was more generous in terms of both
 financial and non-financial support

277
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,360
than any other institutions published
 support measures in this country.

278
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,640
Hence, why that Covid 19 was
 a plan of ours, was also a finalist

279
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,840
in numerous national
 and international awards last year.

280
00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:00,600
So compassionate, 

281
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,520
I think, is one aspect of
 being a supportive and nurturing teacher.

282
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,320
Another is being observant. 

283
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:11,120
So noticing students who are quiet
 and not judging them for being quiet,

284
00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,040
because the reasons
 why students are quiet are not always

285
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,120
because they're disinterested. 

286
00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:19,200
It's rarely because it is interested. 

287
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,360
It's because it's something else. 

288
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:22,440
It's affecting them. 

289
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:27,280
So as a caring teacher,
 surely, surely it's incumbent upon me

290
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,240
to want to find out
 if the student is OK, to ask me to like

291
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,400
to try and support them throughout
 whatever they happen to be enduring.

292
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:36,720
And then the final part 

293
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,600
that I think makes us supportive
 and nurturing is our responsiveness.

294
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,120
So if students email us, that will respond
 within a day or two.

295
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:48,440
The fact that we have 

296
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,240
quantitative tutors and online tutors and,

297
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,400
you know, 70 lecturers
 who make themselves available

298
00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,920
for one on one consultations,
 even if the shooting is not in the class.

299
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:03,760
This is the kind of responsive
 behavior towards students in need.

300
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,200
That I think makes us stand
 apart from the rest.

301
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,920
Related to nurturing learning environments

302
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,600
and success for international students.

303
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,480
I'm interested in your take
 on cultural appropriation,

304
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,760
on teaching and academic resources.

305
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,800
So, for example,
 you have tests and assessments

306
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:32,520
that at times have been under fire
 for being culturally biased

307
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:37,360
or a poor reflection of people's
 learning for the communication method.

308
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:42,760
So what might an institution
 do to make an academic experience

309
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,400
culturally relevant
 and accessible? Two things.

310
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:49,960
The first is one 

311
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,920
that we've been working
 on, particularly over the past two years,

312
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:59,920
and that's been the internationalization
 of the curriculum.

313
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,000
It's really, really unfortunate. 

314
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,280
I think that so many textbooks

315
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,400
and so many theories
 and so many journal articles

316
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,720
and publications and YouTube

317
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,640
recordings are American. 

318
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,040
I really think that's a shame
 that so many are American,

319
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,040
not because there's anything wrong
 with the United States,

320
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,720
just because it's not reflective. 

321
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,480
Of the world in which we live, it's
 not reflective of a school like ours

322
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,600
where 97 percent of students 

323
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,600
are born in a non western country. 

324
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,160
OK, I just boy in a non-Muslim country,

325
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,680
but born and raised
 in a non-Muslim country,

326
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,920
so it's really disconnecting,

327
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,560
I think, for us to be using curriculum

328
00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:54,720
that is obviously American,
 that's obviously male.

329
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,760
Like, you know, like
 a couple of months ago, 

330
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,520
I was reviewing slides,
 admittedly for one of our subjects.

331
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:02,800
And there was this one.

332
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:05,720
It's one slide that 

333
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:10,840
the title was something like a 10
 best business books on management.

334
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,280
OK. All Latin American

335
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,960
and all the 10 were written by white men.

336
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,560
OK. That's not the world that we live in.

337
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,680
And so the internationalization
 of the curriculum for us

338
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:31,600
and any really any institution
 that embraces it is to

339
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,440
write and review curriculum
 through the prism of

340
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:39,800
a diverse world. 

341
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,160
Diverse meaning,
 not just in terms of ethnicity,

342
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:49,040
but also in terms of gender
 and even even case studies.

343
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:54,520
Like if I see one more case study
 about Google or Apple

344
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,120
or Facebook, I feel like I feel like
 vomiting every time I come across.

345
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:03,160
One of those who say they're so cliched
 and they're so unrealistic.

346
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,680
Know is what makes Apple succeed.

347
00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:12,320
What makes a trillion
 dollar company succeed is not

348
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,600
what's going to make a small business
 in western Sydney succeed.

349
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,440
It's not. So to use

350
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,480
case studies of unattainable organizations

351
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,920
doing unattainable things, I think is.

352
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,840
I think it's inappropriate
 and there's so much

353
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,480
cultural stuff waiting to the Internet,
 internationalization of that.

354
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:35,800
That's my first point. 

355
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,120
My second one is to be cautious.

356
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:46,360
That we don't assume that some cultures
 want to be taught a certain way.

357
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:52,200
And what I mean by
 that is it's common to think that students

358
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:57,320
in some Asian countries
 like China or Nam or elsewhere,

359
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,680
they only want to sit in a classroom

360
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,920
passively and obediently and quietly

361
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,280
for the two or three hours
 at the lecturer is talking to them.

362
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,160
Not talking with them, 

363
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,760
talking to them, looking at them,
 where there's little interaction with

364
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,880
I would never question the teacher
 that they would never engage in a debate.

365
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:25,880
They wouldn't dare
 talk to the person next to them.

366
00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:28,760
That's that's the that's the perception. 

367
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,320
And I think what we've done
 I mean, business school

368
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,760
is that we've we've we've proven

369
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,880
that's actually an incorrect view.

370
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,120
The most compelling evidence of
 that is our accounting discipline.

371
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,800
So if there is, there is one discipline
 that's traditionally taught one of the

372
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,960
a traditional uni
 directional metamodel. It's a cutting.

373
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:57,680
But it wasn't until Dr. 

374
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,760
Mark Wheaten became our academic
 director of accounting

375
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,040
that he introduced
 the into teaching method,

376
00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:10,920
which were rolled out across all of our
 accounting subjects in 2017 and 2018

377
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,760
and had made refinements since then in the
 in the two or three years since then.

378
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:20,400
And the entire teaching method basically
 is the most highly interactive teaching

379
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,240
method possible, where the teacher does
 the least amount of talking.

380
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,440
It's the students
 that the majority of the talking

381
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:32,760
and the class is predominantly based
 around the students practicing accounting

382
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:37,760
and communicating accounting as opposed to
 just trying to memorize accounting when.

383
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,800
Software packages 

384
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,600
are doing the memorization
 for us now. Right.

385
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,600
There's no need for simply memorizing
 accounting with the hat to know is to.

386
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,640
Understand the practice of accounting 

387
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,440
more than anything to communicate
 it, hence why every single one

388
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,720
of our accounting subjects,
 every single one of them,

389
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:03,800
has a participation mark of 30 percent
 and 40 percent of a student's final grade.

390
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,400
So it's pretty much impossible
 to pass the subject

391
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,360
unless you're highly interactive.

392
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,920
Now, the majority of students 

393
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,560
in the country from. 

394
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,840
China from Vietnam
 and from the kind of countries

395
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,440
where there's a stereotype,
 they want to be passive learners,

396
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,920
and we've proven that's not the case,
 because since introducing into teaching,

397
00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:30,720
pass rates have increased by 20 percent

398
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,400
and student satisfaction
 has more than doubled.

399
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:36,960
James, I'm really 

400
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,600
interested in how we engage students
 in a culturally appropriate way,

401
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,760
and you've addressed
 that question really well. 

402
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:45,640
Your answer makes me
 think about an article 

403
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,560
that I recently read in Forbes magazine
 by Brandon Busteed in 2020.

404
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,800
Brandon notes that very few
 higher education

405
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,480
providers actually deliver online
 instruction. Well.

406
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,560
To summarize, he's
 talking about how we deliver

407
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,200
instruction that's worthy
 of our brand reputation.

408
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:07,120
So my question to you is,
 how do we at QBs deliver something

409
00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:11,280
that's worthy of our brand for students
 who study online and on campus?

410
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,120
Let me address the online part furnished

411
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:22,840
by explaining why we do it better
 and how we know we do it better.

412
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,680
Now we know do better because for years

413
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,240
our student satisfaction levels
 among those who are enrolled

414
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,320
online is incomparably higher
 than those Rambold on campus.

415
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,400
And we know that we also do
 online, though, because

416
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:44,040
as soon as there was the COVID 19 outbreak
 in March last year in Australia,

417
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,480
that resulted in the immediate
 lockdown of whole country,

418
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,560
which forced all 

419
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,240
pretty much all higher education providers
 to just teach online.

420
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,120
Of the of the 170 or so

421
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,360
providers of higher
 education in Australia.

422
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:07,560
There was just one independent provider
 that takes up the regulator invited

423
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,920
to coproduce and participate
 in a webinar series

424
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,800
on how to teach online well.

425
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,560
So we serve as a role model
 in terms of online education.

426
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,520
So then then that leads me to the question
 of all and what makes our online

427
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,520
online delivery different
 than the rest of the system.

428
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:31,920
And this is a big deal,
 I think, because what we saw throughout

429
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,000
COVID 19 was student satisfaction

430
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,960
levels plummet across the whole sector.

431
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,200
And pretty much widespread dissatisfaction

432
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,400
with the students, online
 learning experiences.

433
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,040
And then a couple of business school.

434
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:49,920
But not not with us. 

435
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:55,720
So last so last year,
 we shifted even higher

436
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,280
in terms of the federal government's

437
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:05,800
official data on overall quality
 of educational experience.

438
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,560
So it's the most important metric. 

439
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,520
So the year before 2019, 

440
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,240
we were in the top
 25 percent of providers.

441
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,200
Last year, middle of Covid,
 we moved up to top

442
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,720
20 percent of providers
 in this country, again

443
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,360
at Recchi, every single public university
 in this country.

444
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,960
So what do we do different them online? 

445
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:32,440
What we do is we make sure that what
 what students experience online

446
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,400
mirrors what they would have experienced

447
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,160
if they were on campus
 sitting in a classroom.

448
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,080
That's very, very important to us. 

449
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,160
So instead of doing what
 other institutions are doing last year,

450
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,920
which was recycling the recordings

451
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,200
from previous study periods
 or or offering bite

452
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,440
sized pieces of a lot of online learning,
 it was apparently people

453
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:57,440
have short attention spans.

454
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,480
Well, I think that's
 not that's not for us. 

455
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,880
That's not our online pedagogical method.

456
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,520
If a Face-To-Face on campus class

457
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,000
goes for three hours,
 that's what online students get.

458
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,280
They get a three hour class every week. 

459
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,400
If on campus students throughout that
 three hour class,

460
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,920
which is a workshop
 for every single subject, that

461
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,480
every class is a workshop, and then online
 students doing that three hours.

462
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,680
You also have a highly interactive
 workshop and a couple in business school.

463
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:33,440
We have the 10 the 10 minute rule,
 which we which we pioneered years ago,

464
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,200
which forbids any
 any any educator, any teacher

465
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,840
from talking for longer than 10 minutes
 without immediately

466
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,600
pausing and facilitating
 some kind of cognitively

467
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,800
stimulating activity for the students. OK.

468
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,520
That exact same principle applies online.

469
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:59,840
So that's really, I think, at the heart
 of our online learning success.

470
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,640
But then to extend it
 into the second part of your question,

471
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,640
which is not just about online success,
 but just student teaching

472
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:06,760
and learning experience in general, 

473
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,000
what makes us good at it
 , irrespective of whether it's online or

474
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,440
on campus. The answer, I believe,

475
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,400
is that we are authentically obsessed

476
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:25,000
with soliciting and acting
 upon student feedback.

477
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,600
Now, many organizations,
 many organizations,

478
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,440
many institutions
 just pay lip service to student feedback.

479
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,960
There's no there's no way

480
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,760
anyone can accuse us a couple
 in business school of doing that.

481
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,480
I think it's physically
 impossible since 2016,

482
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,600
since the beginning of 2016. 

483
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,000
Every single trimester
 will run what we call feedback

484
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:55,640
week, during which we saturate students
 with opportunities to tell us

485
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,280
how we could improve. 

486
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,320
And always, always, always 

487
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,320
within a week, we'll go back to them,
 I think, to analyze their feedback.

488
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,000
And we'll say to them,
 here are the five, six,

489
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,280
seven solutions we're now
 going to implement

490
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,840
directly as a result of the feedback
 you've given us.

491
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,840
What that has meant is that since 2016,
 we have implemented

492
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:26,480
dozens upon dozens
 of significant projects,

493
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:32,000
initiatives and solutions directly
 because students have requested them.

494
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:37,000
So students themselves can see for real
 that their feedback matters.

495
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,080
The feedback is heard. 

496
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,280
But more than anything,
 the feedback is acted upon.

497
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,840
And as a result,
 that means how we teaching the classroom,

498
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:47,920
how we structure assessments, 

499
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,720
how we give feedback on assessments,
 how we structure

500
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,680
our online learning management system
 that everyone has access to.

501
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,040
What kind of resources we provide. 

502
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,080
What kind of courses we offer.

503
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,080
What kind of support we we make available.

504
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,040
All that kind of stuff. 

505
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,520
All that kind of stuff has been born from.

506
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,120
Feedback was heard and acted upon.

507
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,160
James, from my experience,
 I've been working with you now

508
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,320
for a couple of years,
 and I'm particularly thinking back

509
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,600
a lot of lecturer's
 really nervous about going online.

510
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,880
I remember doing a survey
 when we first started at approximately

511
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,040
30 percent of lecturers
 were really hesitant to go online.

512
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,760
And we're used to teaching face to face. 

513
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,880
And we did it compassionately respond
 to their feedback.

514
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,360
And now some of those lecturers
 who were in that

515
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,280
30 percent of hesitancy
 have become our best online teachers.

516
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,240
So the point I want to make
 is really just a comment

517
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,000
that we do support our students,
 we do care about our students

518
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,680
were compassionate also to our lecturers.

519
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,640
So I think that compassion pervades
 our culture from student experience

520
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,600
to how we engage as an employee
 with our lecturers.

521
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,200
I've been to for five and a half years,
 and I cannot recall a single time

522
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,240
that either my my manager,
 the executive director, Steven Ducey

523
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,480
or myself have received more

524
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,800
written compliments
 from faculty than we did

525
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,160
during the transition
 to online learning, because

526
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,400
most of our teachers are also employed
 at other institutions,

527
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,840
which is beautiful, you know , because
 they can see how we compared to others.

528
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:30,000
And during that time, about in June,
 during that time of unprecedented crisis,

529
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:36,280
they got to see that
 the other institutions that were employed

530
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,200
were not in any way from any way
 providing them with the kind of support

531
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,680
that we would, providing
 them. Here are a couple of reasons. 

532
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,280
I think it's important to explore

533
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,800
online study from a well-being
 perspective as well.

534
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,760
And, you know, you mentioned
 cameras off, and that's OK.

535
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:55,840
And there's sometimes
 very good reasons for that.

536
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,080
If someone's on campus
 or in the classroom, there are some ways

537
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,000
to communicate with them
 and see how they're doing as well.

538
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,360
Tell if there are things
 they don't understand.

539
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,840
Tell if they're under some
 stress. Normal human cues.

540
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:12,400
How can we support 

541
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,200
students in an online environment
 if I'm a lecturer?

542
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,360
How can I connect with my students
 to the same degree?

543
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,680
Yeah, I would say just a couple of things. 

544
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,360
The first is to analyze

545
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,000
which classes are play.

546
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,840
With the problem of students

547
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,120
having their cameras
 off, thereby inhibiting.

548
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,560
The connection, you know,
 the human connection

549
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,440
versus the ones where
 that's not a problem.

550
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,800
But that's unheard of where
 she didn't have the cameras on

551
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,080
and there's genuine human
 to human connection. 

552
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:53,520
And there are a couple of 

553
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,880
there are a couple of things
 that have come up for us. One is

554
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,080
I mentioned earlier accounting discipline.

555
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,320
She used to have the cameras off
 in the accounting.

556
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,160
Why is that? Well,
 one reason is because 30 percent

557
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,680
to 40 percent of the final grade
 is based upon their participation.

558
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,960
So unless the prison
 and have the cameras on

559
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,440
and are making an effort to engage
 with their colleagues

560
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,000
and their teacher,
 they're not going to progress well .

561
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,240
The other, though,
 is that we have numerous lectures

562
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:28,520
and we're fortunate
 to have numerous lectures here

563
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,040
who have built a brand,

564
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,240
I think, around themselves being.

565
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:37,720
Being inspiring, being

566
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,880
engaging in provocative,

567
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,720
thought provoking, being so experienced

568
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,240
that students want to have the cameras on

569
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,680
in order to be able to connect with them
 because they feel

570
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,400
that they feel turned on by them
 in a cognitive sense, you know.

571
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,560
So there's something in that. 

572
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,920
So I think there's something
 in both of those 

573
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:07,440
in the expansion of participation marks,
 but also in the cultivation

574
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:12,000
among the lecturers
 of the kind of delivery.

575
00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:16,120
Whether it's online or on campus, 

576
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,280
that would compel a student either
 Cumberland had that

577
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:25,560
come online and had their camera on
 or to attend the physical classroom.

578
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,800
There is something in that charisma
 that I think we can

579
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,120
cultivate more of an educated. 

580
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,880
I love that I can say, actually,
 when I was studying KB's classes,

581
00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:39,360
it was the lecturer personal brand

582
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,840
that was the main thing
 that made me want to connect with them.

583
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,920
The curriculum is fantastic,
 my students and actually really good

584
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:48,200
to connect with fellow students. 

585
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:49,440
But it's very true. 

586
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,960
You connect with lecturers who who make it

587
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,840
obviously you want to connect with.

588
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,200
I have just one more from me,
 James, if I can.

589
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,960
In my role, I frequently looked
 at the graduate outcome survey.

590
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:09,200
So that's that's a survey of where
 alumni in Australia,

591
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,960
of all institutions, end up six months
 after they finished their studies.

592
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:19,240
And I often look at graduate outcomes
 as a measure of educational outcomes,

593
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:24,080
as a measure of the quality of education
 provided. And CBIA.

594
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,040
Actually, we rate really high
 upper range of things

595
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,680
on things like graduate's performance
 at work, relevance

596
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:38,160
to their professions, even our graduates
 salaries are on the higher range.

597
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,600
So as our dean, what would you say

598
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,360
if there's one thing that would lead KB's

599
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:51,720
students to those higher outcomes versus
 the many institutions that are on there

600
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:53,760
? It's true that we 

601
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,840
perform more strongly
 than any of our competitors

602
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:02,560
and certainly every public university,
 depending on the mission that you look at.

603
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,480
For example, starting salaries
 for our MBA graduates

604
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,760
is, one, the proportion

605
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,520
of postgraduate students who are employed
 upon graduation and so on.

606
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,480
So we know we do graduate outcomes.

607
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,320
Well, I think it's a two way.

608
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,280
I think it's one of those
 takes two to tango outcomes.

609
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:29,120
And what I mean by that is it's first
 and foremost incumbent on us

610
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:35,280
as the provider of higher education
 to make sure that we're not we're

611
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:39,520
teaching students in a way that's aligned
 with the ultimate objective,

612
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,680
because the ultimate objective
 for most students.

613
00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:46,000
It's not like it is for me. 

614
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,000
You know, I do higher
 education as a hobby.

615
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,240
I just I enjoy it. 

616
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:55,160
And that's a sign of privilege

617
00:38:55,640 --> 00:39:00,360
and a sign of what's possible
 for a minority of the population.

618
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,360
The majority do not have
 that kind of luxury

619
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,800
and are completing higher education
 or just one purpose.

620
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,680
And that is I want to make certain
 that at the end of the qualification,

621
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,920
they that they are
 able to get for themselves.

622
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,760
A better job or even a job?

623
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,360
In many cases, but ultimately
 a better job in the hope

624
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,160
that it will create
 for them a better life.

625
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,320
When I say them,
 I mean not just for them personally,

626
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:32,040
but oftentimes for their communities
 back in their country of origin

627
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:36,520
to whom they usually send back money
 to support them.

628
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,200
That's the ultimate
 objective, really, of students

629
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:46,640
when you're a provider of higher education
 to predominantly international students.

630
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,160
So we have to make sure, again,
 that the way that we're teaching them

631
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,800
is completely along with that. 

632
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:55,360
So how do we do that? 

633
00:39:55,360 --> 00:40:00,640
We do that by making certain
 that we only ever design assessments

634
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,760
that reflect the kind of work

635
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,600
that a student would be expected
 to perform in the workplace.

636
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:10,240
OK, we're in the workplace. 

637
00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:13,360
None of us are ever required
 to write theoretical lessons.

638
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,000
So then why would there be
 a theoretical essay that we set?

639
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:18,440
We just would not do that. 

640
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,240
It's nonsensical. 

641
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,320
In the world, we never have to write
 a literature review.

642
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,240
So what would be imposed upon students?

643
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:31,200
So for us, when it comes to assessments,
 it's very much about designing something

644
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,360
in alignment with the Australian
 qualifications framework.

645
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,040
But that requires
 students to perform tasks 

646
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,160
that are reflective of the work
 they will eventually be doing,

647
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,880
so that when they're someday
 going for job interviews,

648
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,960
they can more authoritatively
 and more confidently assert

649
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,960
that they've had practice
 at doing the job.

650
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,840
As a result of their experience
 as a student, a couple in business school,

651
00:40:55,280 --> 00:41:00,440
and even better in many cases, they can
 present to their potential employer

652
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:05,000
a portfolio containing examples of work
 that they've done

653
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,280
as a result of their assessments.
 Åkerblom Business School.

654
00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:09,560
So there's that. 

655
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,440
There's the assessment
 piece is also the curriculum itself.

656
00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:16,400
You know, so are
 the subjects that we have.

657
00:41:17,240 --> 00:41:22,600
Are they in both nomenclature and topics
 reflective of the world today?

658
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:26,720
If they are great. 

659
00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:29,320
If they're not in, they have to change
 and we bring the Vatican

660
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,840
in in making those changes. 

661
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,320
But also he's doing the teaching. 

662
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:40,360
So if if the people who are doing
 the teaching are Korea academics.

663
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,080
And I'm not discounting at all
 the value of two academics,

664
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,920
but to students at a school
 with their students have a predominant

665
00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:52,680
objective of employment. 

666
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,120
Career academics are not as popular

667
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,480
as relevant because students care
 less about research.

668
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,760
We do as academics
 that shouldn't care less about research,

669
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,720
so for us, a couple of measurements
 will the first criterion is,

670
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:13,920
does someone have industry experience
 related to the subjects that we teach you?

671
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,480
In addition to the
 necessary qualifications.

672
00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:21,960
So having the qualifications
 and enough having journal publications.

673
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:28,200
Thank you. We care about is
 are you able, as a result of your previous

674
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,800
and preferably current work
 experience, able to articulate in class

675
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:39,240
interesting and relevant examples of case
 studies that you either experienced?

676
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:41,760
Or that you know of 

677
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,360
as a result of your industry
 industry backgrounds.

678
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,200
So all that combined is one partner's

679
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,000
responsibilities
 in the two to tango equation.

680
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:57,560
If you haven't got a partner or it's the
 student, there's only so much we can do.

681
00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,480
As the educator. 

682
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:04,000
So the student has to make an effort
 that the student has to attend classes.

683
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:06,920
They shouldn't have to build
 a relationship with their teachers.

684
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,840
The student has to be attending
 the academic success center for help.

685
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,120
The student has to be making appointments
 to meet with their careers coach,

686
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,600
both while they're a student and
 after they graduate as an alumni member.

687
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,800
The students have to be focused on 

688
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:24,960
understanding what's
 meant by professionalism,

689
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:30,720
you know, and what that means is
 they can't be sending emails to

690
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:34,760
to prospective employers as though they're
 sending them a text message.

691
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,120
They have to be interested
 in participating in internships

692
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:40,480
or work placements. 

693
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,280
So there's effort involved,
 you know, in presentation

694
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:48,640
and so on, in order for employability
 outcomes to ensue.

695
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,960
You've talked with a tone of pride
 and passion about how we produce

696
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:54,640
graduate outcomes. 

697
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,960
We've talked about the responsibilities
 for learning by students

698
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,760
and lecturers with an allusion
 to two persons dancing the tango.

699
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,360
But ultimately, good employment
 outcomes for students

700
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,680
also comes down to good leadership
 of Kaplan, Australia, Kaplan

701
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,040
Business School and your own leadership
 as dean and professor.

702
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,000
In the future, when people
 reflect on your legacy,

703
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,800
what are your accomplishments
 that you would most like them to remember?

704
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,160
I reckon I reckon

705
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,560
there are three things
 I would say that I'm most proud of

706
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:29,600
and would want to be remembered as having

707
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,160
had an influential role in generating.

708
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,880
The first would be that when I started

709
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,520
a couple in business school back in 2015,

710
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,120
we were officially in the bottom

711
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:47,680
11 percent of all higher education
 providers in this country.

712
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,160
So I'd like you to imagine what
 that would have been like. Like

713
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:56,200
imagine the the shame
 that many staff members felt,

714
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:01,520
you know, knowing that they're working for
 what's publicly available.

715
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,040
Right. As one of the bottom 11 percent.

716
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,800
Of providers in this country in
 terms of quality of education experience.

717
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:15,080
So for me to have played
 an influential role as an academic leader

718
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:20,720
in taking us from being in the bottom
 11 percent and increasing

719
00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:24,920
every single year
 since then to a point where we're now

720
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,520
in the top 20 percent of all providers
 exceeding every public university

721
00:45:29,720 --> 00:45:33,880
, like back in 2015, 2016,
 and something that would that

722
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,480
like we were even thinking in those terms.

723
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,080
Now, that would be my first
 my first of three back.

724
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,440
But I feel like that. 

725
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,040
But I and my team
 had a transformative effect

726
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:51,800
on our quality as measured
 independently by the federal government.

727
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,360
The second is that I feel as though

728
00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:00,240
I have seriously innovative
 in terms of the way

729
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:05,600
that higher education can be both taught
 and packaged as products.

730
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,400
And that's that's evidenced by national

731
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,000
and global awards,
 which have been finalists.

732
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:18,680
It's probably most evident in our MBA,
 which I led the redesign of.

733
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,840
Back in 2016 for launch in 2017,

734
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,800
that had at the time
 about 10 points of differentiation.

735
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,080
There were unheard-of
 in higher education in Australia.

736
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:33,520
And as a result. 

737
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:39,040
Ariba is now the third most popular
 in this country in terms of the number

738
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,800
of student enrollments, which for us
 as an institution, as a for profit.

739
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:46,440
A proudly for profit
 institution is very important

740
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,600
not to have such a lucrative product,
 and so does the MBA.

741
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:54,120
But, you know, analytics
 courses and numerous

742
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,160
other courses have performed
 equally equally well.

743
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,560
And then my third would be something

744
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,800
that I regard as as important,

745
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:07,920
if not more important
 than commercial success.

746
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:13,760
And that is the regulators
 view of us as an institution,

747
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:19,440
because if the regulator
 has an unfavorable view, it becomes

748
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,400
profoundly difficult, profoundly difficult

749
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,200
to get coursers accredited, for example.

750
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:32,080
It becomes profoundly more difficult
 to deal with spontaneous audits.

751
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,440
But our relationship
 with the but with the regulator,

752
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:40,120
I feel is strong and special,
 and that's evidenced in a number of ways.

753
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,760
It's evidenced by Kaplan Business School

754
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,560
being selected to represent
 the independent sector

755
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,360
on the Department of Education's
 working group for Academic Integrity.

756
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:56,000
I think it's reflected in my involvement
 as a national board director

757
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:00,120
for our peak body here, Independent
 Higher Education Australia.

758
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,600
It's evident in the regulator
 inviting Capstan Business School

759
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:10,640
to deliver a plenary session at the annual
 Conference on Academic Integrity

760
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,960
to be a coproducer of the Web
 series on online

761
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,720
teaching of the Leader Conference.

762
00:48:18,720 --> 00:48:21,480
When I needed an exemplar

763
00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:25,600
to be interviewed on quality education,
 the people who chose us.

764
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:30,440
Since all this kind of stuff
 that I thought I had been pivotal

765
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:34,880
in, I've been instrumental
 in, has helped us strengthen

766
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:39,800
our regulatory reputation
 in a really important way.

767
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,600
And that important. Why is that? 

768
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,440
It sets us up later this year
 quite well, to submit an application

769
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:48,920
to become a self-liquidating authority.

770
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,600
I mentioned before, there are 170
 something providers in this country

771
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:56,600
of the non universities,
 which is about 130 or so.

772
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,240
Only a dozen Asaph accredited.

773
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,240
So if we're successful,
 will be in the 30s or 40s.

774
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,360
The fact that we're even on the verge
 of submitting application

775
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,160
is something we would not have dreamt
 of even three years ago

776
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,040
alone, five or six years ago. 

777
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,000
And so that would be my third
 my third legacy that I would like

778
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,800
to be remembered by, that I helped
 I to be viewed by the regulator

779
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:24,760
as worthy of submitting an application
 to become supplicating

780
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,560
as a result of the reputational
 stuff and the governance.

781
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,160
James, this is a great interview.

782
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:36,920
I think we covered a lot and it's
 going to be really hard to edit down,

783
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,920
just really gained a lot
 from your perspectives on academic

784
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:44,640
wellbeing, online
 learning, academic excellence.

785
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,360
So it's been a real pleasure.
 And thank you so much for your time.

786
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:48,840
Thank you. Karen. Thank you, Richard. 

787
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:50,280
Thank you, James. 

788
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,640
If you're feeling unwell
 or in need of help,

789
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,920
reach out to anyone in Australia
 can get immediate mental health support

790
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:03,560
by calling the national lifeline
 on 13, 11, 14 and beyond.

791
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:07,840
Blue has great 24/7 support staff
 and one three hundred

792
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:13,560
twenty two forty six thirty
 six Chaplet employees can contact H.R..

793
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,720
Our Access Free Counseling CBIA

794
00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:20,040
students have access to your free
 confidential campus counselors.

795
00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:25,120
Safety and support services such as Sonder
 reach out to your campus student

796
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,920
experience team for friendly guidance
 on accessing these services.