NC: Case-Files: Clandestine Confessions

In this special guest episode, A.J. Pelletier tells us about The Apology Line.
The '80s saw a host of new wave technology, but they weren't prepared for this!

The Apology Line was a phone-message service that allowed callers to call in and apologize for their wrongdoings... The man behind it was in for a wild ride, so buckle up and listen in!

To check out A.J.'s podcast head on over to https://www.buzzsprout.com/1007101

Join Gavin, Suzi, and Brittany each week as we take you on a thrill ride adventure into the juicy details surrounding famous and unheard-of cases.

Things can get a little rough, so listener discretion is advised.
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Transcript

SPEAKER_08 0:03

911, what is your emergency? I just found a body. I don't know what to do. Government official.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

You are listening to Nightcap, a true crime podcast. If the mystery of murder intrigues you, or if you find crime quite a curiosity.

SPEAKER_07 0:26

Welcome home. Pour yourself a drink, sit back, and buckle up. It's gonna get dark.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Be warned, this podcast does contain explicit content and graphic descriptions of real life accounts and pictures. It's definitely five.

SPEAKER_07 0:48

Hi! Thank you for joining us for this special guest episode, Clandestine Confessions. Things have been quite a shit show lately. We may or may not have skipped a recording, but um we're back. Finally. This two-week break has literally felt like a hundred million fucking years. Right, Brittany? I miss you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

I miss you so much, too.

SPEAKER_07 1:13

And we still have never even met.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

I know. God and I push back.

SPEAKER_07 1:18

I'm so sad. Understandable though. It'll just be that more epic when we finally do get to meet. So we have a very special episode for you tonight. But let's get into our introductions. I'm Gavin. I'm Brittany.

SPEAKER_08 1:34

I'm Hardy.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

God damn it, Hardy.

SPEAKER_05 1:38

And I'm AJ.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

It's Hardy's first day. Oh, now it's my turn. Now I'm fucking up. Yeah. So unfortunately, Susie is out adventuring and doing Suzy things and won't be joining us tonight. However, Hardy is filling in for her. Finally got him on the mic. You all haven't met Hardy yet. He's our second editor-in-chief and supervisor. And he makes sure that Susie and Gavin don't fall off their chairs and have fresh beverages while we record. Speaking of beverages, AJ, what are you drinking? That's me.

SPEAKER_05 2:24

Um I am drinking Double Dubious Double IPA from Bad Sons Brewing Company. Level label. It's a skull with a hotel can. That's cute as fuck.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Wait. What's the tell hold on? Oh, I don't have a pen. Tell me message. Oh, I guess you could message me. Tell me what that was again at some point.

SPEAKER_05 2:45

Yeah, definitely. So again, it's double dubious, double IPA from Bad Sons Brewing Company. It is 8.4% alcohol by volume. Very tasty beer.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

I love it.

SPEAKER_05 2:57

What are you guys reading for?

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Oh, thank you. Look at you. You did that without a script.

SPEAKER_05 3:02

I listen. I listen to the show.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

I'll go. I am so excited because my favorite non-alcoholic beer has been out of stock for like months and it finally was back in stock. So I ordered a bunch of it. It's Surreal Brewing Company, which is based out of my one of my hometowns, Campbell, California. And it's their uh hazy IPA or juicy hazy IPA. And it's so fucking good. What's I'm drinking? Juicy. It's so yummy. Gavin, what about you?

SPEAKER_07 3:38

Well, snap, I am uh drinking uh cider again. Don't you know? I'm back on the Marionberry. So um I'm not gonna read the whole can for you today, but uh yeah, y'all should check it out. In Klein Cider Company, Marionberry. It's delicious. Hardy, what are you drinking over there?

SPEAKER_08 3:56

Um super basic. I'm drinking some blue moon white white Belgian. Belgian white? Belgian white. Belgian white. Nice. Is that the normal Blue Moon or is that a new one? It's the normal blue moon. Oh is it? Yeah, that's the white.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Wow. You just got all detailed with it. I was confused. So let's get to it, shall we? AJ, what do you have for us tonight? Today, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_05 4:25

So before I get into it, I kind of wanted to ask real quick, is there anything any of us are like want to apologize for but are afraid to say it? Because it kind of ties into what we're talking about today.

SPEAKER_02 4:37

Nope. I apologize for everything immediately.

unknown 4:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 4:41

Gavin? I'm terrible at apologizing. Don't you wish there was a certain phone line that you can call anonymously and apologize for shit that you did wrong without having to tell the person in real life and just get that guilt off your chest? That'd be fantastic. Well, there was one and it's not around anymore.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Well, I have something for you.

SPEAKER_05 5:06

I've got something for you that doesn't exist anymore. But today we're gonna talk about a man named Alan Bridge and a little project he had called the Apology Line. Now, I picked this case because it was very intriguing to me. I just learned about it not that long ago. Um, I relate a lot to this man because he put a lot of work into this project, didn't really get a lot out of it, and that sounds like my life because I do a lot and don't really get to see a lot of turnaround, but that's fine. Um I just hope I don't have the same better end like Alan did, spoiler alert. Um But Al Bridge Alta Happy Ending? What are you talking about? Fonely. Um anyway, uh Alan Bridge is was an artist and a carpenter. Um he was uh he just uh made this little project called the Apology Hotline that ran from 1980 to 1995 in Manhattan. It was developed by uh it was developed in order where criminals and wrongdoers could apologize for the misdeeds in the hope that this will help them turn over a new leaf. The program ran for 15 years and started out as a confession confession line, to which then grew into almost a weekly show where listeners can tune into other confessions, offer advice. Or a way for the case. Did you say 15 years? Fifteen years. Holy smokes. Mm-hmm. Um, so basically he was like the pioneer for like calling in for like advice or whatever, like doing it more than like radio talk show hosts, like almost like podcasting in a way, too, where people would tune in every week and like listen to these things and leave messages for other callers, which is really cool. Um, but what began as an experiment to give people a second chance at life turned into a project that on not only consumed Alan but would eventually take his life in the end. Um yeah. Um, and I'm just gonna acknowledge my sources uh before I get into it. Um definitely check out Alan Bridge on Wikipedia. You could check out the Apology Line at apology line.com. And there's a great six-part series podcast hosted by his widow, um, the Apology Line podcast from Wondery that goes over the whole story of what the Apology Line was all about.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Oh, it's his widow. I've heard of it, but I didn't oh that's sweet that his widow did it.

SPEAKER_05 7:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 7:22

I have never heard of this until he brought it to my attention. And I would did a very good job of not like Snoopin.

SPEAKER_05 7:30

I appreciate that. Um, I I heard about it through another podcast, and I it sounded really intriguing, so I checked it out. I listened to the whole thing, I'm like, wow, like this is amazing. But um, are you ready to get into it? I think so.

SPEAKER_07 7:45

Let's fucking do it.

SPEAKER_05 7:48

All right, so a little bit of background on Alan here. He was born in Falls Church, Virginia. Bridge attended the University of Chicago, where he earned a bachelor's degree in fine arts. Uh, he returned to Washington, D.C. He became one of the second generation of artists of the Washington Color School movement. Uh for a series of large-scale paintings, he used poured paint techniques, then moved on to a geometric abstraction kind of style. He was championed and collected by Gene Barrow at the time of the director of the I'm gonna butcher this, uh, Cor Corin Gallery of Art. He uh Bridge uh exhibited at the uh Corey and whatever, and the many other galleries in the 1970s. He created at least 79 paintings in the years spanning from 1970 to 1977. Bridge married in 1977 and then divorced in 1981, where he met after that he met a second wife who he stayed with until his dying day, uh Marissa. Eventually, Bridge tried tired of the vision image, he began making interactive machines with moral implications. Uh, the most famous, best known of this is uh Crime Time, where the viewer spins a wheel of chance and either gets away with a crime by receiving a marble from the machine, or she gets caught and her hand is held back for 30 seconds. So I didn't really I don't really know too much about crime time. I didn't have enough time to really check it out, but that was kind of intriguing to me a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

Wait, was that a game?

SPEAKER_05 9:13

I don't wait, what was it? It was a it was a game of some sorts that he made as a machine, yeah. Um and then from there the next jump was uh making the apology line, which he started when he moved to Manhattan in 1977. So on a cold night in October of 1980, yellow posters started being hung all around Tribeca. The two men hung them quickly, promoting a challenge to anyone who would read them. This is what the poster said. Attention, amateurs, professionals, criminals, blue collar, white collar. You have wronged people, and it is the people that you must apologize, not to the state, not to God. Get your misdeeds off your chest. Call apology at 212-255-2748. The idea of apology is to provide a way for people to apologize for the wrongs against people without jeopardizing themselves. Apology will automatically tape record your anonymous phone call, do not identify yourself, and call from a pay phone to prevent tracing. Describe in detail what you have done and how you feel about it. When enough statements have been collected, they will be played to the public at a time and place to be advertised. Apology is a private experiment. Its sole purpose is to provide a new avenue of communication. It is not associated in any way with the police, government, religious, or other organizations. After they hung up the flyers, they celebrated for a job well done at a local dive bar, while an answering machine in the loft apartment sprang to life with callers leaving messages. You can play that first clip if you have it.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Apology is not associated with the police or any other organization, but rather is a way for you to tell people what you have done wrong and how you feel about it. All statements received by apology will be played back to the public, so please do not identify yourself. Talk for as long as you want. If you prefer a take interview with me, leave a number. Thank you.

SPEAKER_07 11:04

My God. Okay, first off, AJ, I need to know why this guy sounds exactly like you. This guy does not sound like me at all.

SPEAKER_05 11:11

We may share the ex We may share the same name because technically my real name is Alan, but I spell it with one L. And this man is dead, by the way, so I'm not convinced anymore. No. When did he die and how old are you? We'll get there. And I'm 34. Um, that's right. Yeah, we're the same each. Um, so anyway, um his first caller was a reporter who was very interested in the line and wanted to write a story about it. The reporter's name was Stephen Saban, and after hearing this message, Alan set up an appointment with him to talk about the apology line. Alan didn't want his name to be out there, so Steven decided to call him Chris Apology. They talked for hours, and Alan showed up uh or showed him his setup and also heard uh some calls. They listened to a call from a mugger named Mike who enjoyed beating up and killing homosexuals and stealing their jewelry.

unknown 12:05

Rude.

SPEAKER_05 12:06

Yeah, very rude. Like a chill guy. There's another clip right there, Mike DeVito. Just uh warning you ahead he's uh a little violent. Um, but yeah, the Mike DeVito clip.

SPEAKER_07 12:17

This is the homo hater?

SPEAKER_05 12:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Jesus.

SPEAKER_04 12:22

Yeah. And uh beat homo. Take the money off. That I really need. I don't like it. Then once in a while I wear gold. I like a big department. And uh gonna grab it to the department. I prefer a bleeding. Almost you're really good about killing them. Crazy the sick people. I think they should all be done away with.

SPEAKER_06 13:22

What the fuck? Oh that's so really icky. I like that.

SPEAKER_08 13:29

Unreasonably angry.

SPEAKER_05 13:30

We also gotta remember here, this is also the early 1980s, too, where like, you know, uh people really discriminated a lot against homosexuals. I do not I well thank God.

SPEAKER_07 13:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

Unfortunately, we would like to say that that's not the case anymore, but yeah, no, I hear you.

SPEAKER_05 13:48

Yeah, there's still a lot of hate out there, and if you're a hater, then uh do not listen to this podcast and you can go rotten hell.

SPEAKER_07 13:55

Um I'll go to jail, I don't care. I say it is in almost episode every episode. Fuck that guy. Fuck that guy, fuck that guy. Hope you died in a short time. I need to be on a shirt, Mike DeVito.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Put that on a shirt.

unknown 14:10

Fuck that.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 14:11

Uh so anyway, there was there was no apology with that call. Uh, Mr. Apology told his callers not to leave their names and to remain anonymous. That was a straight up confession. Yeah, straight up confession, but with no apology. Um, but he can never understand why this man left his first and last name. Uh so the article came out that November uh with the title Who's Sorry Now? And uh it was about the mugger. But uh shortly after that, there was a case where two gay men picked up two other men at a bar, and it turned out that the men they picked up were muggers. Uh during this time there was a lot of hate towards the gay community, and crimes like this were all too common. Uh, like we were saying earlier, you know, this was the early 1980s, and uh it was a different time, it sucked. And uh, you know, unfortunately there's still a lot of hate today, but thankfully there's a lot more progression now and a lot more acceptance, so I'm all about that. But uh a few days after the article came out, Alan came home to one night to another message on the machine, but this time it was from the police. Alan didn't know how to respond to it. Um, so he had a friend call back and act like apology himself. The detective about at the uh the detective talked about the case about the gay men getting mugged and murdered, and how the men who called the line thinks that it was connected somehow. Uh so Alan was conflicted because his line was not for the police. He knew he would have to try and do the right thing. He called back the detective to say that his tapes were played by a radio station for an interview. So he kind of found like a compromise here. He says, you know, I'm getting interviewed for my project here. You might want to listen in and just hear this message yourself. Uh so that's what he did. Uh he was going to record the interviews and hand it over to the police. After the tapes were handed over, he never heard anything more about the case. So we really don't know if Mike DeVito was connected to the this case at all. Unfortunately, he didn't hear anything about it. So after this, uh Alan introduced his uh girlfriend and soon-to-be wife Marissa to his project, and they would listen to callers every night together. Uh Marissa never heard anything like it before, but she was really intrigued by it. It helped others to be understood. If you ever want to hear more about the relationship with Alan and Marissa, definitely listen to the Apology Line from Wondery, as I stated earlier. Uh, it's a very great podcast. It's six-parter. I enjoyed it a lot. Alan liked to live dangerously, but for the first time he was ever scared came from a caller with a death threat. A caller named Bernie called the line to unload his criminal behavior and how he would never go back to mugging, or how he would go back to mugging, uh, hurting and killing people because of the line, and now that he let it all out, he would find out who ran the line and he would kill the person himself. So that's the other clip that I sent you guys.

SPEAKER_03 16:43

I I don't know how to start. Uh I've never never heard or, you know, did anything like this before. Uh I guess uh what I do is I just say I'm sorry, just apologize, and then everything is alright for the different, you know, those bad things I've well, you know, the things I've done in my pair. Uh it's I wanna first of all, this is a great force. You know, I've been I've been feeling guilty about some of the things, and I'm gonna tell you what I did, but I mean I've been feeling guilty about them and I haven't been doing them recently. Uh but the opportunity you've given me to apologize and tell these people that I'm sorry is fantastic. Because then I I don't feel guilty anymore. I mean I can uh well I can start doing them again, right? In other words, I can say I'm sorry, and then that that's okay. Then there's no more guilt, there's no more problems. I don't have to worry about police or sports or anything. Oh, you're fantastic. Well, first of all, I guess going all the way back when I was a kid, I my uh cousin Louise. I raised her when she was old. Ew, what the fuck? What do I do I do? Do you say I'm sorry? I'm sorry, Louise. Yeah, I I realized now I I shouldn't have done it. I was I was nineteen at the time. I didn't know that. Oh my god. I'm sorry, Louise.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

I was 19 at the time.

SPEAKER_03 18:26

Well, um replayed. I killed Henry. The thing is within the words. I killed Henry because they shouldn't have to find the light. I gave him a good deal. He had a few pictures in the paper and everything. Shit, I didn't know anything. Uh I guess I lobbed. I didn't kill anyone, you know. Their money and everything. Uh I don't know their names. Uh, how do I apologize to them? You know, I guess uh, you know, 1520 people that I've stolen money from and mugged and robbed and frightened. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Say it 15 times. Oh boy, did the lifting pan sick. I'm getting I get so much better now because I've never seen them to tell them that I'm sorry. This is a fantastic service like you're doing. Oh boy. Well, that's a weight off my shoulder. Boy, I can I can go out to eat this stuff. I'm bugging again and doing all those things. Oh, you changed my own life. Uh, listen, uh, I gotta hang up soon, but I want to tell you, I've never said I'm sorry to someone before I heard of the person who is running this service, the person who answered the phone. I will find out who you are, and I'm telling you right now, I'm sorry, but I'm going to kill you. I've never done that. I've never said I'm sorry to someone before I've committed the crime. I'm going to kill you, but I'm sorry. You know, I'm telling you right now, I'm sorry, service. That'll make it all right, right? You mean there's gonna be no problem of anything. You know, a lot of people live their lives and uh they don't do any good at all in the world. You at least will know that you've made one person happy. I mean, is that worth a lifetime that you're gonna make one person truly happy? And I'm gonna find out who's gonna be.

SPEAKER_09 21:34

I'll find out who you are.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

I'll find out where you live. And when you least expect it in this year, this brand new year, 1981, when you least expect it, when everything seems calm or so, your death will come. And uh oh, the way you know, uh, I'll be there. I'm gonna do it. And uh I'll say to you, Bertie, telephone call, and you will know. You will make the connection and know that I followed through on exactly what I said I would do, which is your death.

SPEAKER_05 22:09

It was like seven minutes of rambling. I had to shave off as much as I could because it was so long. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

No, uh that is fucking nightmare fuel. What the fuck? Definitely.

SPEAKER_07 22:21

His voice and everything, and he's giggling. Like he's he's excited.

SPEAKER_05 22:28

He sound he sounds like son of Sam to me for some reason. Like I just imagine that's how son of Sam sounded.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

It kind of sounded like my grandma telling a story about something fun that happened. Like grandma's from was from New Jersey. That's I don't know. It sounded like my grandma telling a story, like of a good time.

unknown 22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 22:50

That was freak, right? Fucked. Yeah. Uh so of course Alan was really scared, and uh Marissa as well. So uh, you know, kind of the anonym uh anonymous part of Mr. Apology kind of started going out the window at this point. Um, so he told all of his neighbors about this and about his project. And of course, his neighbors are like, What the fuck is wrong with you? What are you doing? Like, what did you do? Like, what is this fucking project? And of course, one of his neighbors is like a therapist, too. So, like, uh, you know, he changed all his locks, he secured his windows, he bought a shotgun. Uh, but a year passed and Bernie didn't make good on his threat. So, good on him. Uh oh, that's good. Yeah, you know, didn't hear from Bernie, so that's a good thing. I promise Bernie doesn't come back into the picture after this. But uh a year passed, it's now 1981. Alan got enough phone calls at this point, he decided to go public for the first time because that was the idea of this project in the first place, was to take this social project and bring it to the public. So for the first time, his project went public. It was, you know, the new museum in Greenwich Village was going to host a showcase about the Apology line. Him and Marissa decided to get him a disguise though, because he still kind of wanted to remain anonymous. Uh, he got a fake beard and dark sunglasses. That is the most stupidest anonymous outfit ever. But uh, yeah, like you try to look anonymous, but you look like the sketchiest fucking person in a place ever with a fake beard and sunglasses. Like, I would point you out in a crowd instantly. But anyway, uh what was really cool about this showcase though, they got four phone booths in the museum uh where people could just walk in, pick up the phone, and hear all these messages. Uh so yeah, it was really cool. Their neighbor Tina, who was the therapist I was telling you about, came and started listening to the calls. Tina has heard a lot of things in her career. Uh, she said, in this experience, she said he took the human experience and put it out on display. It was fascinating to her. The exhibit was a huge success, and they later celebrated in their loft apartment with a huge party. Apology got uh right up in the New York Times, and Alan was getting invites to dinners and with art dealers, like he was becoming like a real big celebrity at this point. Apology was also getting turned into an HBO movie. Uh Alan got 600,000 for the rights, uh, though the movie was extremely terrible, uh, had nothing to do with Alan whatsoever. Uh I suggest don't don't go watch it. It has nothing to do with what the movie was actually about. I I think I have it in my notes here later on. But um, but the main question everyone was asking, how does this whole thing end? It would have been a perfect uh ending after it went public, but Alan wasn't ready to let it go. Also, the callers needed the line. They needed a way, you know, an outlet. Uh it's now January 1983. Alan recorded a new intro to the Apology line. He would play back apology uh calls for listeners to hear. So here we go with you know people calling in and they could listen to messages for like 10 minutes and then they could leave one themselves. Uh and after it was done, if they wanted to leave a message, like I said they could, he would then change them out every month so they would get like fresh new messages every month to listen to. It became a program which a lot of which got a lot of tr uh traction from listeners. Callers would respond to those calls and interact with each other. So again, taking the whole like podcasting thing or like even like as far as like social media, just like commenting and stuff like that, which is really cool for something to happen like early in the 1980s like that. Yeah. So by the summer, Marissa moved in, they got a lot closer, but apology was still a very big part of Alan's life. Marissa Marissa learned to live with it. Uh, they would listen to calls every night after dinner. Uh there were callers who would call all the time with names like Hard Times and Mr. D, the vigilante.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Hard times meeting ass.

SPEAKER_05 26:40

Hard Times was pretty fucking funny. Um, and Mr. D was like this like vigilante dude that would go out at night and like, you know, they would like banter and talk shit to each other on the apology line. It was so fucking funny. Like, again, listen to the Apology Line podcast. You can hear some of these calls. Even someone who claimed to be the Zodiac Killer called in. Uh, Alan was so fascinated by all of his listeners, he was never really sure how seriously to take some of these calls. But with what was going on in New York at the time with the high crime rate, some of them could be true. Uh his neighbor Tina again warned him that he doesn't know what he's getting himself into. Like, because she's a trained therapist, and this is like something that's a little nuts, you know. But Alan didn't listen. Alan and Marissa thought the line was doing some good. Alan began studying criminology. He bought a whole bunch of books, you know, studying criminal criminology. He studied books and tried to take what he was learning into a show as a way to help heal and prevent crimes from happening again uh with some of the criminals who would call in. He changed his intro again, asking his killer callers, uh, quote, if they have any underlining code that is making and how they approach life and see if they are making any positive contribution towards life. So I guess like if they have any sort of code or whatever, and if like the apology line is helping in any way whatsoever. Uh hard times called in saying uh he never hurt women or kids, just people who hurt him. And he got a call from a man named Richie. Richie's gonna be a big time player here, unfortunately. I don't have any clips from Richie, but Richie was not like any other caller. Richie was psychotic. He had no code, he felt no guilt towards his crimes. This got under Alan's skin so much that he became engulfed in Richie's life. Alan was hooked on Richie. So Richie claimed to roam the streets and pick up young men, torture and kill them. Young men who were runaways, no one that anyone would miss if they went missing. Richie had no underlining code. He was a hunter, as as he said in his calls. Alan responded to Richie by trying to relate to Richie and about having fantasies himself and how he would never act on them. So again, just trying to relate to his callers, you know, trying to like bait him in a little bit, be a little sympathetic. I don't really know if Alan had any of these fantasies himself, but he then asked Richie how he went about doing his crimes, identify his victims, etc., and also thinks uh he should be stopped, but not sure if Richie is telling the truth about his crimes or not. Richie called back saying, You want proof? Okay, how? Alan actually had a P.O. box set up for the apology line. You know, not his personal address or anything. So Alan gave out the the P.O. box number where people could send things and Richie sent him photos of his victims. Uh yeah. Fucked up, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:22

Everyone gets some hands or separate wins or something.

SPEAKER_05 29:26

Yeah. So Alan wasn't sure if they were real or not, but he still wanted to learn more. Richie stopped sending photos but started sending poems to Alan. Uh they were they were Richie bad philips. They were really bad. Not good at all. Yeah. It was getting a little romantic. It's almost as bad as BTK's uh poems, if you guys know anything about like BTK's poems.

SPEAKER_06 29:48

Oh Lord.

SPEAKER_08 29:50

This is Starbucks. No mass series reminds me of Post Secret. You remember that website, Post Secret?

SPEAKER_06 29:57

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_08 29:59

It's basically the digital version of what um this this experiment was.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

I'll have to check that out.

SPEAKER_08 30:05

That's I don't know if it's still running or not.

SPEAKER_02 30:08

I think it is still around. I feel like I like saw it recently for some reason, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:15

I'll have to check that out.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

That sounds intriguing.

SPEAKER_05 30:18

Uh so Alan thought he was luring a killer out, but but had no idea Richie was also playing his own game as well. They would have back and forth calls on the apology line for weeks. Alan would ask questions and Richie would answer them. Tina listened to the calls and was scared for Alan. She told him uh he should stay away. But Alan didn't listen. He he wanted to help Richie. He wanted to study an actual serial killer. Like Alan really thought he was Batman in the situation, and Richie was the Joker. You know, I don't I don't really know how else to like, you know what I mean? Like sum it up, but basically Alan was trying to help him, I guess, and capture a serial killer.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

Alan was like a woman and Richie was like a dude that needs therapy. She just wanted to fix him. She knew that she could fix him.

SPEAKER_05 31:04

You can't. You're gonna find out how how how much more Alan is is like Batman coming up in this story because it's actually really kind of funny. Um so we started. A little bit of Lan Ice and Room. Like immediately my head went there when I first heard this. I was like, he thinks he's fucking Batman. Like Alright, so at this point, uh the format of the show started to change a little bit. Alan and Richie would go back and forth on the line, and callers would either get sick of it and tune out, or they would tune in because they were uh really fascinated by it. Alan would ask if uh he enjoys what he does, and Richie would respond with yes and uh on ways on how he does enjoy it. He would also say he would never turn himself in and uh would kill himself before that would happen. Uh Alan offered to help him and give him ways to overcome his urges, and Richie would respond with, I find it cute that you care so much. Richie would also play on Alan's words about his own fantasies and how he could do them if he really wanted to, and uh Richie can help him, he can teach him. Richie eventually asked Alan to dinner, which was very awkward. Uh Alan Alan would respond to him, uh, my dungeon or yours, though I am interested, I probably shouldn't, and that was that. Is Richie gay? I don't know. I I he might have been, but I mean, like again, like I I don't have samples of their uh calls because it was kind of hard to get, but they are available on that podcast. So anybody that listens to this and wants to check it out, definitely listen to this episode first and then check it out after. Richie and Alan's uh bond was so much that it started to affect his now wife Marissa, like he cares more about Richie than her. Like he started like getting more and more into like Richie's phone calls and less about his wife. So of course she was jealous, you know. Well she should have been. Uh Alan would say to his wife, I think I found my true nemesis in Richie. Like Alan again was Batman and Richie was the Joker, I pretty much.

SPEAKER_08 33:04

So it's become an obsession at this point.

SPEAKER_05 33:07

Pretty much, yeah. It was a very, very big obsession in Alan's life for a while. Uh so Memorial Day weekend is coming at this point. Uh Richie called in saying that he was going to kill again. Not sure if uh Richie would make good on his third. Alan ignored it and uh went away for the weekend with his wife to the Hampton Bays where they would go diving. Now, Alan was a big scuba diver. It was like one of his hobbies, uh, which is you know something that him and his wife would do together. Uh they owned a boat, they would go out all the time. So Alan loved to dive. Uh when they came back, there was a message from Richie about his latest victim. Richie made good on his threat. The message was just for the record, his name was Mitchell. He was a hustler. I picked him up at the Port Authority last Friday night. He said he was Irish, had reddish brown hair, and a mustache. About 5'10, 27 years old. He lasted until Tuesday midday. He had a small shamrock tattoo on his chest. His agony was intense. That makes 28 and counting click.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

My god.

SPEAKER_06 34:09

What the fuck?

SPEAKER_02 34:10

God damn. Wait, did he did I miss or does he have you even said like what he does to these people? Because I'm if something like tortured him. He picks up he picks up men, uh, like uh basically just like runaways that nobody would miss, and he just basically tortures them and then gets so Oh Gavin, with modern online dating and the opening messages I get from men, such as love BBW, oh suck my so hot. I fear I'll be alone forever.

SPEAKER_07 34:42

Alone forever, you say? Well, do I have the perfect book for you?

SPEAKER_02 34:47

You do? Oh, please tell me more.

SPEAKER_07 34:49

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SPEAKER_02 35:04

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SPEAKER_07 35:23

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SPEAKER_02 35:42

This book also comes with a companion audiobook narrated by the one and only Patton Oswald. So everyone, please go order a copy of this book for you and everyone you know and support this beautiful, beautiful story.

SPEAKER_05 35:58

So Alan searched the papers at this point for days without any luck. Anything Alan tried to do for Richie had failed. It took the wind out of his sails, and he thought there was no more reason to continue to help Richie. He felt betrayed. So uh like he was hit in the stomach for trying to help. Richie called a few more times after that, then disappeared from the apology line. Alan was depressed, and his wife would help take his mind off things, say we'll go diving more because it helped center Alan. Mercil was glad that Richie was out of the picture. At least that's what she thought.

SPEAKER_06 36:28

Oh no.

SPEAKER_05 36:31

So at this point with my mic muted. So at this point, it's uh now the summer of uh 1986. Uh the Apology Line movie from HBO uh was about to be released, and the word had gotten to callers, and people would call in calling uh Alan a sellout. Alan then uh took to the line to address it. He said in the early days of the line, he was approached by HBO and they offered him contracts and money for the idea of the project. Uh he said he did make some money uh from it, but it was to help the line, and that uh he had no creative control over the project. Uh that he also dreaded the final product of it too. And yeah, it again it was really, really bad. Um uh it was about a woman who had the line uh about a serial killer who would capture her daughter and try to kill them until a handsome detective comes in and saves the day. Nothing to fucking do with the actual apology line. So pretty spot on then.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

Hi.

SPEAKER_05 37:34

So if anybody wants to look it up, go for it. But um, it was released in 1986. Alan never talked about the movie again and just moved on.

SPEAKER_07 37:42

Oh no.

SPEAKER_05 37:45

I don't know if I blame him.

SPEAKER_07 37:46

Poor guy.

SPEAKER_05 37:47

I probably would too. Uh so Alan at this point was thinking about writing a book and to end the apology line. Uh callers would call in and say, please don't shut it down. It's a good thing that we need. A lot of callers would call in with positive messages and well wishes, hoping that the line wouldn't go away. Though he was, you know, flattered by it. Um he thought it was just time to end it until a familiar voice came in. Richie. Richie said, I'm sorry that uh you are ending this. I just wanted to say that I have enjoyed this program. I still have been busy with my hobbies, but found your line comfort. I think of you as a friend, and that I would miss you. This pulled Alan right back into the project immediately. Oh, of course. Yeah. Alan would leave messages again, like saying that they enjoyed their conversations, but the line helped him, uh, but has the line helped them in any ways. All the talk about ending the line was over. He would not shut up about Richie to his wife, his friends, his neighbors, etc. Marissa was getting tired of having two people in her marriage. Uh, Alan would go on and uh she would, you know, respond with, Do you even care about what's going on in my life? Because it seems like you don't. And Alan didn't respond to that. He just cared too much about his line. So of course now there's a lot of tension building up in their marriage at this point, you know. Like she's getting tired of it. Uh his wife was also an artist. I forgot to mention that. She was a famous painter at this point. She was basically supporting Alan uh in this project. Like Alan wasn't really making any money at this point. So, you know, yeah. So a lot of tension. Uh, but anyway, Alan wanted to capture Richie and others like him. He was becoming his own Batman. He even enlisted the help of uh enlisted help to capture Richie. So in uh December of 1980 uh eighty-seven, a detective showed up to the loft department. His name was Detective Ray Pierce of the NYPD. Uh he had special training in making psychological profiles of serial killers and solving unsolved unsolved crimes. He wrote up profiles for the FBI, FBI on Son of Sam, Charlie Manson, and more. Ray Pierce was good at what he did. He heard about Richie and uh got into contact with Alan. The two talked about Alan's project, and uh Alan said it was uh his civic duty to help bring in guys like Richie to justice. So again, like he's kinda not really like sticking to his guns when he originally made this project to begin with, to like stay anonymous, like and you know, oh, we're not getting involved with the police here, but yet he's calling in cops saying, yeah, let's catch, let's capture this gumbag. Like, you know what I mean? So like I don't I don't really know what his morals are at this point. The two talked about Alan's project. Now Alan said it was a civic. Um Alan began to go against uh what his line was originally for. The two listened to the tapes, and uh he even sent home Ray with some tapes. The two hit it off. Ray thought they were consistent with what he has found to typical serial killers. He figured Richie was the real deal. Ray told Alan he would help him, though they really had no evidence yet besides what the call uh what they call behavior evidence, which would not hold up in court. Ray still wanted to help though. So uh it was only a matter of time now before they would find Richie and bring him in. Ray kept the uh case unofficial uh so he could do it on the side until they had enough evidence. He also didn't want word to spread about the case just in case word got out and the media and Richie would be gone. Uh so Alan would like bait him in at this point. He would just bait him in with like more phone calls, like just keeping the conversation going so they could get more tapes, uh, this, that, and the other, and like Ray would like kind of like teach him, like give him things to like do and like try to bait him in more. Uh the third.

SPEAKER_07 41:27

So does Alan have Richie's phone number?

SPEAKER_05 41:30

Uh yeah. So at this point, Alan doesn't have Richie's phone number, but Richie has Alan's phone number, the apology line. So they would set up a time to like talk personally. Say it was like eight o'clock at night or something, Richie would call in, and instead of the answering machine picking up the uh the phone line or where Alan would pick it up himself and they would have full conversations where Alan would record it himself. Sorry, I forgot to mention that, but that's okay. Uh the yeah, the first call they had, it sounded like the two were longtime pen pals, getting caught up, laughs, etc. Then Richie went on about some of his victims. Alan was taking Ray's advice and trying to draw on Richie. Uh Ray was impressed. Uh Alan would ask about how he would go about his kills, etc., like having Richie teach him a bit, since Alan would say he had the same thoughts about hurting people, which again, we don't really know if it's true or not. Ray said not to entice him or make fun of him. And the first conversations though, though interesting to Marissa, she was getting worried because some of the things Alan would say to Richie would scare her, like he really felt that way about things. Uh Alan would uh write that he wanted to get close to Richie's evil, as close as he could without participating in it, like you know, jumping into the abyss just enough where he can still kind of back away from it. Richie's opportunity to find everything out about evil, he wanted to find as uh everything out about Richie as much as he could. So again, like Alan is Batman and Richie's the Joker. I can't say that enough because it's pretty much how the story's going. Uh Ray's approach to this was paying off. Uh, with his advice to Alan, it was working to draw Richie out. Richie gave out info that his parents died in a plane crash. The plane crash over the Hudson, which it collided with another plane. Alan called Ray to update him. Alan researched the names of victims on the flights, and uh there were like four to five couples who died on them. Alan also called the National Transportation Safety Board and checked obituaries on those who died. Richie also accidentally gave his real name and said his name was Jim. So that kind of that was a slip up on Richie's part. But the one thing Ray and Alan couldn't figure out was where he was calling from. They tried their best until one morning they traced his calls back to Philadelphia. Ray had an investigator go to investigate the booth where the calls were coming from. They saw that one car had a New York license plate on it, and so they traced it back to a James in New York City. And James had an arrest record. Uh, Ray didn't share this information with Alan because he was afraid Alan would go out and find Richie himself. Ray held back a bit, but Alan found out eventually anyway, he wanted to find Richie himself. So without saying anything to Ray or his wife, he drove down to where Richie lived. He went to a terrible fucking idea. Terrible idea.

SPEAKER_07 44:30

This guy has confessed numerous murders to you, talked about killing people, and I'm just gonna hop in my car and go say, hey, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 44:42

This is what he did. This is what he did. Alright, so he went down to where he lived, he went to a local deli, he bought a cup of coffee and a newspaper. He also had a camcorder. And you know, this is the 1980s. You know what the size of camcorders were back then? Like they were like VCRs. And for you know, kids that listen to this podcast, you don't know what a VCR is. We're dating ourselves here. I know I'm old, shut up. Um, but like it's basically listening to this podcast, go to bed. Yeah, it's basically a briefcase with a giant lens on it. So try imagining carrying this giant video camcorder, and the way he was holding it, he covered it with the newspaper. So he'd have like the newspaper draped over his arm while he had a a camcorder underneath it. So of course stupid as hell. So conspicuous, yeah. So he started walking around the neighborhood looking until he was arrested by cops. Cops he was like a freak or something, so they arrested him. Once Alan told him what he was doing that didn't involve what he was actually doing, uh the cops let him go. They thought he was just a freak with a camera. When Ray found out, he called him an idiot and told him to stop what he was doing. Like, what are you like what the fuck are you doing? Like you're gonna get away.

SPEAKER_08 45:55

Do you have a death wish?

SPEAKER_05 45:57

Ray, exactly. He never told his wife about it. Marissa was getting upset over the whole thing. She would vent with friends of hers about Alan, uh, but Alan didn't care. Uh Alan would talk to them all the time about Richie to his friends, his wife, etc. Almost like he didn't care about being anonymous anymore or about being Mr. Apology. Again, like he's telling everybody, hey, I have this thing called the Apology Line. Have you heard of it? But don't tell anybody I'm supposed to be anonymous. Like, dude, come on. Like so Marissa was Yeah, it's not making much like the guy is slowly unraveling at this point. You know what I mean? Like uh she was starting to slip off his cracker. Exactly. So Marissa was getting severely unhappy with her marriage. She wanted kids, but at this point, it wasn't even an option with Alan and his work. The line was growing more and more with more people calling in, theories about who Richie was, giving clues, etc. And 1989, Marissa invited her friend over and her friend's husband, Michelle. Michelle was a handsome guy with style, according to Marissa. Marissa showed off, I don't know. Marissa of her work to them. Well, you can actually hear Michelle in the the Apology Line podcast. He had some they did some interviews with him. But um, so anyway, Alan came home. He wasn't really in the best mood, but he was okay by dinner time. He opened up a buffer Mr. Apology again, and Michelle geeked out over it. Like he was like, Holy shit, you're Mr. Apology. Michelle loved his work and his project. Alan took Michelle aside and showed him uh the photos that Richie sent him. Michelle didn't know what to think about him, but knew what kind of situation Alan was stuck in. Uh, it was no longer an art project, it was a cat and mouse game. But Michelle also saw the appeal of it. Michelle became Alan's new best friend and hang out about the Oh well they they they were talking about Richie. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

Well, yeah, but now Richie's gonna throw out his best friend necklaces and he's gonna tell them about Michelle.

SPEAKER_05 47:56

Michelle's gonna wind up in a ditch somewhere, yeah. Uh Alan kept a lot of things to himself that he didn't tell anyone like how he wanted to kill Richie himself. Sounds good. Everyone in Alan's world was getting worried about him. Then one night, Alan said him and Michelle were going to Times Square to hunt for Richie at some gay bars, and that Michelle was going to be the bait. His wife got so mad and said that whatever he was planning could ruin his case that he built with Detective Pierce. Though it never happened, it still scared his wife half to death. Like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Uh also according to Michelle, he never agreed to any of this. So that comes later.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

Alan's like, no, no, no, trust me, it's gonna be chill.

SPEAKER_07 48:46

We're sick of the gay bars and try to find the murdering man. Like, solid plan, bro.

SPEAKER_05 48:53

Right, exactly. Like, this ain't the movies, you know what I mean? Like, doesn't work like that. Uh, but at this point, Richie stopped calling altogether again, and this was the last Alan would hear from Richie ever. Alan tried everything he could to try to bait him back in uh with you know theories and whatever. What uh spooked Richie from calling again. We'll get into later, but Ray's investigation stopped, and that was it. It was over. Alan was devastated. Uh, by the time they figured out why, it was too late. Alan was already gone. But we'll get into that later.

SPEAKER_08 49:26

Dun dun dun.

SPEAKER_05 49:28

Uh so now we're into like part two right now. Like this is after the whole Richie debacle and everything. And the years after Richie stopped calling, Alan felt lost. He had to find himself again. He ran the line for another five years. He even expanded. Built up uh it expanded, but it also built up competition and uh community. It overwhelmed Alan, and it wasn't Richie who brought Alan to his breaking point. There was competition that started building up 900 lines. If anybody remembers 900 lines, uh they were the sex lines from back in the day.

SPEAKER_02 50:08

I'll rub it up. And then I'm gonna slip my hand down and please deposit.

SPEAKER_05 50:19

Yeah, 900 lines were getting popular, and some of them, and some that were a lot like the Apology line, some like the Apology sound off line pissed off Alan for a dead. They charged$2 for the first few minutes and five cents for uh additional minutes. Yeah, it was five cents. Was it five cents? I think it was five cents. I wrote five dollars, but I think it was five cents. My bad. The woman who ran it even called herself Miss Apology. Alan called a few times trying to get a hold of somebody. Finally, after someone picked up, he went off. Like, why are you stealing my goddamn name? Like, what the hell is wrong with you? She basically said, You can't copyright a generic word like apology. There's no way you can possibly do that, and you could take me to court all you want, you're gonna lose. So Alan was frustrated, hung up. He felt overpowered, ripped off, and hopeless. He wasn't getting any credit for his idea and not catching Richie. It also bothered him that his wife was supporting them. Like she was the bread maker and he wasn't making any money, so he was very depressed at this point. Alan began to try his own 900 numbers, but got heat from dedicated listeners, callers calling him a sellout again. Some threatened not to call again. Alan really didn't want to do it, so in the end he didn't. He started a magazine instead called Apology. It was more work for Alan and asked callers for help for some and some volunteered. Even though he got help and people would come to the loft to help him, they would recall Alan always complaining about not getting any money and how much his project was uh getting, you know, was not getting any fame or anything. So Alan and Marissa were still living in the same loft apartment they've been living in for years. As long as they have been together, the apology line was always a part of their lives. So Alan's life hadn't changed much. His wife's did. She was getting more famous as a painter, uh, was making good money. She would from time to time ask Alan for help moving her paintings that were picked up uh from museums. Alan hated it and told her so. They would argue about it, and his wife was tired of putting her life on hold while supporting him and his project. Uh, it was apparent that there was less and less of Alan each day and his wife for his wife and his friends. Uh, there was nothing but apology at this point for Alan. So very frustrating.

SPEAKER_07 52:36

God, is that how nightcap is for me?

SPEAKER_02 52:40

That's actually why we gave you a two-week brain. Hardy reached out to me and said, Hey. We've been available this whole time.

SPEAKER_05 52:52

So Alan actually doubled down at this point. He created two more lines for Apology. They turned into shows from uh shows about homosexuality in the church to race and politics. Uh, where like callers would call in and talk about those subjects. Uh, he wasn't as focused on serial killers, etc. He would respond to his callers with advice, humor, or just to sympathize with their problems. It was turning into a talk show/slash podcast kind of thing for listeners. Alan was connecting with his community. His wife was kind of happy to see him helping others instead of being obsessed about Richie, so which was cool. Uh the fall of 1994, a woman named Sam would call in. Alan was about to be personally involved again with another caller, but this time for a different reason. Sam was a married woman stuck in an abusive relationship with her husband. He would beat her daily. She was scared to leave him. She would call apology as a way to vent and get help and advice. The apology community would jump in and leave messages for Sam, giving her advice or ways to help. Most callers telling her to get out and leave. She would say things like how it would start with just a push or a shove to lying bleeding and bruised on the floor, and how she feared for her life, and that she may end up dead by her husband's hands.

SPEAKER_08 54:12

Oof. That's awful.

SPEAKER_05 54:14

That's awful, yeah. Alan stepped in, giving her advice to go into a shelter or go to a home to her family for help. He also offered to meet up. Alan made a plan for them to meet up. He offered her a place to stay with him and his wife. Uh she was young. She was in her early 20s. Then she showed him knife scars and a bruise on her head, covered in makeup.

SPEAKER_02 54:37

Lord help me.

SPEAKER_05 54:38

Alan offered her a place to stay and a ticket home to her family, but she declined. She went right back to her husband. Oh no. This set Alan off. Uh he left a recording uh on the line intended for Sam saying that he really feels for her and that he wants to help her, but if she is going to keep going back to this life, then what does she want them to do about her? Saying things like, uh, if you you know, you could die in your situation, what are they supposed to do when that happens? What are their responsibilities if you die? And if you were to die under these circumstances, uh this is basically complicit with like some sense of suicide for going back. She was equally responsible for what happens to her for not leaving and how there is a community who cares for her and why is she doing it?

SPEAKER_08 55:27

That's really manipulative.

SPEAKER_05 55:29

Eef yeah. Not really the best thing to say to somebody that's no. Yeah. Again, Alan is not a trained therapist. Probably should have talked to his neighbor Tina, you know, before making that. But anyway.

SPEAKER_02 55:42

It's like a what is it called? A savior con complex? Is that what it's called? Complex?

unknown 55:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

Say savior complex. Is that what it is?

SPEAKER_08 55:49

I call it white knight syndrome.

SPEAKER_02 55:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 55:54

I like that. Yeah. She called back furious and crying. She said, why don't you ask this to other women going through this? She doesn't have an answer as to why she stays. She agreed she is responsible, but that is no one's responsibility about what happens to her. That she trusted Mr. Apology and that she feels betrayed. That the lion was there for her to vent to and now is it's not. She doesn't want help from the police, and that she wants to thank everyone for their advice. She ended it by saying that this would be her last call to the lion. She did leave a few more messages, but then stopped. Sam never called again, and to this day we don't know what happened to Sam. Callers left messages of love and support for Sam, but she never responded back to them. At this point, Alan is 50 years old, and he was never any closer to this project ending. Isaiah started calling into the lion at a young age, another person that would be involved in Alan's life. He never left messages, but was a listener, uh he would listen to calls and their apologies. He was just a horny 16-year-old teen going through puberty.

SPEAKER_06 57:01

Love Nirvana. Well.

SPEAKER_08 57:29

Yeah, we kids' points of life.

SPEAKER_07 57:31

Yeah. And it was free.

SPEAKER_05 57:36

You're right, exactly. You know. He loved Nirvana, etc. He found out his dad called the line, and that's how he started calling in. Isaiah started realizing that there was more to the line than what he was looking for, and immediately fell into the program. He even left a message for Sam given his support. He used the name Shame because he felt shameful calling the whole name.

SPEAKER_07 58:00

Poor kid.

SPEAKER_05 58:03

On the line uh started to apologize for things. He wanted to get more involved and less left a message for Mr. Apology. It was about getting Apology online with the big boom with the internet. The two spoke on the phone and eventually met up in real life to discuss the ideas. The idea was to put the calls online as well as some of uh the print and the apology magazine as a way uh to archive like years of material.

SPEAKER_02 58:28

What year was this now?

SPEAKER_05 58:29

This was I want to say 94.

SPEAKER_02 58:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:36

Yep. 94. Jurassic Park. I was gonna I was gonna hum the music, but uh I don't want you guys to get demonetized or coffee right instrument.

SPEAKER_06 58:49

Right. Sounds like it.

SPEAKER_08 58:54

Okay. Uh that's probably all you can do.

SPEAKER_09 58:57

Exactly, right?

SPEAKER_05 59:00

Uh so in February of ninety five, Alan turned fifty. He didn't want to celebrate, he was depressed. On his birthday, him and his wife went to go look for a new chair for his office, and he was just in a bad mood. And the weeks that followed didn't change either. One night Marissa came home to find Alan in the kitchen. Some press he was hoping to come through didn't pan out, and he was extremely depressed. He yelled, Nobody cares. Marissa responded with, I care. Uh, she was worried about him. He said, No, you don't. You don't care about me or my work at all. Marissa snapped at this point. Like she was she's been supporting her husband for years. Yeah, paying the bills, paying for everything for apology, putting food on the table and funding his work, yada yada yada. She put her own needs aside for him at this moment. Yeah, she didn't care. She responded with, you don't care about me or my work either. Alan said nothing because he knew it was true.

SPEAKER_07 59:58

Yeah, living this uh artist life is hard enough. I can't imagine trying to support another artist. Oh my god. Yeah. I would die. I barely eat as it is.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:16

Uh so Alan said nothing. He knew it was true. Marissa broke the silence saying, I care about you. That's what's important. He didn't respond. She remembers thinking that this was really bad. Like divorce is coming kind of bad. The next day they headed out to Long Island. Alan asked if she wanted to go diving with him when they got there. Marissa said no. She had a feeling like something bad was going to happen. So she said no, thank you. Uh so again on the podcast, the apology line from Wondery, Marissa explains that she's had two premonitions in her life. One was when she the night she met Alan, and one was the day he died. So this was the the second premonition that we're talking about. She had a feeling like something bad was gonna happen. Though the two had a a good day together before he went diving, uh she knew something was bad, or something bad was gonna happen. Uh so she just laid low. Later that afternoon, Alan set off to go diving. Marissa said to be careful, and he promised he would. His dives were usually around like two hours, but after three, he he wasn't back yet. She took a taxi to where Alan went diving. She saw their car and a man beside it. It turned out it was a detective from the Southampton Police Department.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:33

Oh no.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:34

A young couple a young couple saw diver hit by a jet ski.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:39

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:41

That was not expected.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:44

That's not at all what I was thinking's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:48

Was Richie driving the jet ski? I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:54

Nobody We don't know who the jet ski driver was. It was fucking Richie. Yeah, nothing happened. But anyway, um, after he was hit, he sunk back into the water. Uh there were helicopters and boats circling around the bay. Marissa knew then that she had become a widow. They found Alan's body the next day. They never found the uh the driver who hit him. Uh Marissa started to wonder if they never went if he would still be here. But no matter how much she thought about it, she knew that Alan would have met one of these individual ends eventually, the way he was going. Uh so Marissa just went going uh going through the motions after she got a call from a volunteer from the Apology line about how the line was down. Like, apparently the line was down and you know she didn't know anything about it. Marissa thought that the line was fine, and uh she called Isaiah for help. Uh the kid that, you know, was volunteering to help uh apology out.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:50

The horny kid?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:52

Yeah, the horny the horny kid. Yes. Shame.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:56

The horny kid.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:58

Horny dated boy.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:01

Immortalized mouth. She then told Alan, uh she'd she then told Isaiah that Alan passed away and that apparently the line was down. He didn't know how the how to process it and couldn't believe it. She wanted to put out a message about Alan's death to the community, and he said, Yes, of course, I'll help you. Uh Isaiah came over as soon as he could. She gave him the keys to the loft, and then she went to stay on the boat for the time to just grieve because she was, you know, obviously hurting. Isaiah had no clue how anything worked, but after a week he got everything up and running again, only to find out why the line stopped in the first place. Alan had shut it down and said nothing to his wife. Oh shit. No way. He called the phone company before their trip and canceled the line. He knew. He knew. His wife thought maybe Alan had a vision too. She doesn't remember who left the message about Alan's death, but calls flooded in with sympathy and tears for Alan. A lot of love for Mr. Apology and how the line helped them and their lives. A lot of people called about what would happen to the line. Isaiah tried his best to keep the line open for a while, but eventually it just died off because without Mr. Apology, listeners just stopped. Uh Marissa did a few memorial services for Alan and let callers know where they could be, where they would be. One was at Strawberry Fields because uh he was a big John Lennon fan uh in Central Park. Marissa went to the location with a picture of Alan in hand that said Mr. Apology on it, and some flowers. For 15 years he had been anonymous and now he had a face. She noticed a lot of people lingering around, some by trees, uh just watching everyone. She placed the picture on a bench where it said imagine when she started seeing everyone around come up to her and introduce themselves, give their sympathy, condolences, and love. They were all loyal apology fans. They had another memorial service with a tree planting at Madison Square Park. Mirsa put some of Alan's ashes in the hole and planted a tree there. It was really hard for her. She ended up moving out of the loft a few months after the loss of Alan. She really grieved her loss. Then she started to think about how she would go on. She needed to start making her own choices for herself and leave the apology line behind her. She had gone through hours of recordings from the line, things she never knew about Alan. She came across something about Richie. Ooh. Richie Hey, ready to find out what happened with Richie? Yes! Enjoys his peak.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:33

There he is.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:35

Richie was brought in by Detective Pierce and questioned by police about his involvement with the phone line and his kills. Nearly pissing his pants the whole time. Yeah. He just fantasized about this shit.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:52

No fucking way.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:54

Swear to God. He was so scared of going to jail, he never acted on them. He was described as a bit of a nerd or in the eyes of a LARP.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:09

This makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:12

The only things they knew about Richie was he was born in New Jersey. He served in Vietnam and he had an arrest record. He basically played Alan the whole time. Made it all up. Oh my god. And the only victim of Richie's was Alan. Oh man. Knowing they had nothing on Richie, they let him go. Pierce told Alan about it. That was it. Alan never talked about Richie ever again after that. But he didn't tell his wife. Just left it alone. Also, the whole thing about going to Times Square to find Richie wasn't true either. You know, with baiting Michelle and going to gay bars.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:48

Oh my God.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:50

Yeah. When Marissa discovered all of this, she wanted to ask Richie why he did all of this, but never got the chance to. Richie died in 2002.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:59

Oh.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:59

Huh. Shit. Yeah. Now with some closure on all this, Marissa had to m has moved on. She got more into her paintings, made a good career about it, and made about uh made a six-part series called The Apology Line for Wondery to tell Alan's story and about the Apology Line. And my closing thoughts here about this, we never know when our day will come when we will leave this world for the next. So tell the ones you love how much you care, and live life like it's your last. Alan Bridge definitely left his mark on the world with not only art, but something wholesome that people could relate to and vent to. People need to be connected and heard. Alan Bridge took the weight of the world on his own shoulders and gave people a place to escape to and eventually did him in. I can relate to Alan even more so than just sharing a name with him, diving hours and hours into my own projects and losing time away from the real world. If I could take anything away from this, it's to never take life for granted or the people in your life who care about and support you. Always make time for you and share it with the people you love. And that is the story of Alan Bridge and the Apology line.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:03

Wow. Good job, AJ. That was great. Damn. Thank you for that. That was a ride, a wild ride. Roller coaster.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:15

I was just sitting over here enraptured the whole time with the entire Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:21

I'm so blessed. I was just researching this.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:23

Richie was driving that fucking wave runner. Whatever. It was him. It had to be. Poetic justice.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:34

Not justice, but she's she said in the uh in the podcast that like um even though they don't know who the jet skier was, if they did hear the podcast or whatever, or like knew that they accidentally killed this man, I'm sure they would call in and apologize for it. Oh my gosh. So hey. Was that a speed bump? Was that a rock?

SPEAKER_07 1:09:00

You can call Nightcap's uh voicemail line and leave us an apology.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:05

No, don't start doing that. I have enough stress in my life.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:11

Don't AJ, we really enjoyed having you on our show. And that story was blast. Goddamn roller coaster, man. Well done. Thank you. Make sure you guys check out AJ's podcast. He's the shit. We love him. You can find his link in our show notes.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:27

We totally skipped it because let's be real, we are always riding the Hot Mess Express. But tune in next Monday for Foreign Fiascos, where Gavin, Susie, and I tell stories about crazy crimes and murders around the globe. You might want to rethink that post-COVID vacation.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:44

Also, if you can't get enough of us, subscribe to our Patreon by going to www.patreon.com backslash nightcap TCP. That might actually forward slash my bad, but whatever. To get exclusive content like our bi-monthly Pillow Talk episodes where we go over new and noteworthy cases, dumbass criminals, that Florida man we keep talking about, and play an interactive true crime podcast game that even you, the listener, can play along with. Guess that we guess that what's my favorite fucking game.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:18

Check us out anywhere, you social Facebook, Insta, Twitter, or at www.nightcaptrucrime.com. Thanks for chilling with us tonight, and a big thank you to AJ for telling us about the apology line. Thank you, AJ.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:35

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:36

Thanks. Okay, bye.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:39

Bye. Fucking Susie.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:45

God damn it. We need her for Oh yeah. Now you're not gonna have a fun outro.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:51

Well, I'm putting this in there, though. Susie, baby, we raise Zero to make it good.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:56

This is one time at Bandcamp. Whole aspirito bowl from Chipotle during recording.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:04

Damn girl.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:06

Yeah. Wolf. Yeah, don't worry. I ain't full boy.