Joe Speredon speaks on the transformative power of men's circles, and shares how he responded to a personal crisis by joining Sacred Sons, participating in a real-life fight club, and letting go of the masks men wear to embrace his authentic self. We discuss the unique challenges men face, how to set children up for success, and how to find a men's group that is right for you. Listen to learn about the masculine.
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Joe Speredon speaks on the transformative power of men's circles, and shares how he responded to a personal crisis by joining Sacred Sons, participating in a real-life fight club, and letting go of the masks men wear to embrace his authentic self. We discuss the unique challenges men face, how to set children up for success, and how to find a men's group that is right for you. Listen to learn about the masculine.
Timestamps
Resources
AI Tools used in the creation of this episode include Autopod and Buzzsprout CohostAI.
Subscribe and support the show directly:
https://brendonmarotta.com/show/
All of you is welcome here. So bring all your parts. Bring the parts that you think are ugly. Bring the parts that you're ashamed of. Bring the parts you don't tell people about, because, come to find out, you're not the only one.
Speaker 2:You're listening to the Brendan Murata Show. In this episode I talked to Joe Speardin about sacred sons and men circles. Joe is one of the few guests I've actually met in person. We met on a self-development retreat and I was incredibly struck by his energy and wanted to interview him on this podcast. In this episode we talk about a whole range of topics, everything from getting more in touch with your emotions, removing the various masks that men wear. We talk about larger social topics like capitalism and religion. We talk about how peaceful parenting uniquely benefits men all sorts of different things. So if you are someone who is interested in getting in touch with your authentic self and increasing your awareness in understanding men, or are yourself a man who wants to better understand yourself, listen to this episode now. So, without further ado, here is Joe. What did bring you into men's work? Let's start there.
Speaker 1:As it does for many men kind of the cliched midlife crisis back in 2020, which I know is crisis time for many people ironically was the year I was turning 40 years old and found myself in that spot that a lot of men are at, where I've done the family thing, i have the family, i have the wife and the kids and the home and the career and all that stuff and realized that I didn't feel fulfilled, i didn't feel complete and felt a lot of guilt around. That Felt a lot of panic, anxiety, that type of stuff, and I didn't know what to do And, being a man, i'd been conditioned most of my life to just kind of like stuff it down, you know, and not talk about it, just deal with it. If you ignore it long enough, it's going to go away, and that became impossible I guess is one way to put it. I got to a point where the prospect of not being here actually became viable, and that wasn't something I'd ever considered before in my life. So when that happened, it really scared me in a way that I hadn't been scared before, and I started to kind of search force managers And fortunately, one of the answers that I was introduced to was Sacred Sons, which is an organization.
Speaker 1:They're all over the globe And they're more retreat based, right, and if you look at their demographic, if you look at their imagery, their marketing me being this white, middle-aged, middle-class suburban dad didn't really feel like I fit. But I didn't know what else to do, and so I signed up for one of their events and drove to Southern California And I mean, it's a whole story in and of itself, but what happened there is, i finally felt like I could talk about what was real, and I was given a space to do that with other men. And not only was I allowed to do that, i wasn't mocked for it, i wasn't judged as weak or inferior, and what shocked me the most is I had a whole bunch of other men saying, yeah, me too. And that was amazing, because it had never really even occurred to me that other men were feeling some of these same things Because, again, we don't talk about it. So that was the first step, was that event, and then just the steps that followed from there.
Speaker 2:So what specifically was it that you were feeling? Because it sounds like the sacred sons of me that gave you a space to express that. But what originally was that?
Speaker 1:You know, I can't say that it was just one thing. The thing is is that I was feeling, And I think I just got to a point in my life where I couldn't repress that any longer And I was like repress that any longer. I was pretty open to feeling all the good stuff. I'd feel joy, I'd feel happiness, I'd feel pride in my children or in the work that I did, I would feel excitement as I was building something. But when fear came up, when anxiety came up, when sadness came up, when depression came up, I didn't know what to do with that. So I didn't do anything with it, I ignored it, I repressed it And it just got to that point where it was all coming up and I couldn't stop feeling it. And so it was all of those emotions, all of the emotions that I had grown up labeling as bad.
Speaker 2:So I was on a podcast of another woman who described feeling as an aspect of the feminine, and I pushed back a little bit on that when I heard that because I feel like that's very much a cultural construction. So I'm curious from your perspective. It sounds like for you, feeling became much safer in the company of men, and so I'm curious from your perspective how those emotions and expressing those emotions fits in with the masculine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i love that. How it fits in with the masculine is even within men we have masculinity and femininity, right, energies, traits, whatever you'd like to call that. I don't believe that emotion or feeling is necessarily feminine. The level of attunement and the level of engagement with those emotions, i think the feminine is more, not susceptible, but just more in alignment. In alignment with with those.
Speaker 1:And if you look at the way we've evolved, that would make sense, as they were more than nurturers, the caretakers, the caregivers, as they had children that were feeling things, they needed to be more attuned to those emotions. They needed to be able to recognize those. Man evolved doing different things and we weren't we weren't as attuned. So what it's done for me in being able to feel my emotions, as far as my masculinity goes, is it's allowed me to step into it more fully And it's allowed me to be more authentic in what that is. A lot of masculinity that we identify as toxic masculinity is really, i think, a mask, and that mask is generally fear. But when we're empowered to say I'm afraid, then the mask comes off And what comes through is is true, authentic masculinity, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:It does Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i would say the same experience with it or I would say this, something very similar.
Speaker 2:The thing that's coming to mind, though, is that I think you can tell a lot about a person by what mask they choose to wear, or what they think the safe face to put forward is, and so I'm curious what masks do you see men wearing? And then, what mask did you, did you see yourself wearing? Because I know that very often in my own life, i've made the mistake of picking the wrong mask, so to speak. In other words, i thought I was doing something that was safe, but it was actually much less safe than actually just being my full, authentic self.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, And that's the irony, right Is we will wear masks, thinking that that is going to make others feel safer, that that is going to help others be more willing to connect to us, But it does the exact opposite. The mask that I see the most and I appreciate you saying the mask that I saw as in past tense, that I wore I still struggle, right, That's still something that I have to be aware of every day And I still have to work with every day The primary mask is the mask of having it all together, of having everything figured out, whether that's around my career, whether that's around fatherhood, whether that's around the economy or any aspect of my life, my physical health, all of these things right, Even my office, right. You can see behind me it looks pretty nice and organized, But if you see in front of me it's not quite as organized. That's a mask And that mask is the tray that I've got it all together right, i will be totally transparent.
Speaker 2:This is a film set. This is right. I don't have my offices normally not lit like this.
Speaker 1:So and we do that to portray certain things, And I don't I don't believe that the same thing is. Authenticity Does not mean you owe everybody every aspect of your life right, And so the way that I talk to my grandmother is different than the way that I talk to my 12-year-old son and the things that we talk about. Am I less authentic with one than the other? No, There's just different aspects of myself that I'm revealing. The mask is when I feel like, no matter who I'm talking to, I need to be somebody different than who I am for them, And that is the work. But I see that happening very often. Some of the other masks that a lot of men like to wear specifically are wealth or the joker. You know the guy that just he has a joke anytime anything comes up that is uncomfortable And he just likes to laugh and make other people laugh because that's better than having to cry. Those are probably the biggest ones that I'm seeing with men in this day and age.
Speaker 2:You mentioned Sacred Sons. When you go to a group like that because as I understand it that's a men's retreat group or a men's circle What is it that you're able to do there that you're not able to do in the regular world? Right?
Speaker 1:Beautiful question. It's not so much about ability as it is focus. When you go to that event, the focus is authentic connection to your own heart and to other men. When you are out in the world, the real world, as it were that isn't everybody's primary focus, and so what I've tried to do and what my goal has been since that very first event, is I'm now in my community trying to create a life. you don't need to retreat from, a life that you can do that here and now. And so that's creating, you know, men's circles here locally, creating a culture here locally. that's taking those things that I've learned at Sacred Sons and introducing them.
Speaker 1:But yeah, outside of that, is there a special energy that comes with that? Absolutely, because men are showing up in that intentional space of I need this, i want this, i'm ready for this, and the discomfort of change is now finally less than discomfort of staying the same and they're ready to make that switch. But I think that's an excellent question because there's actually a danger in that. I love Sacred Sons, i participate in multiple events a year And I think if you ask Sacred Sons what they're going to look like in 10 years, it won't be what they're doing now, because, as this grows at an exponential rate, the retreat space is no longer about that, because that's everywhere. Now it's about what are best practices. Now it's about leadership. Now it's about exploration and growth together, rather than introduction.
Speaker 2:Moving from a retreat to an advance, so to speak. Yeah, absolutely So. That was actually a question that I was going to ask is what that sort of practice looks like in the real world, so to speak, or in an intentional community, because I think that's something a lot of people want. I know I've gone to retreats or to conferences or things where there's a group of people getting together with a very intentional purpose or shared vision or mission, and very often what happens is there's a container and there's a great experience, and then everybody leaves and that's it, like it's over. You don't see them again, and so I'm wondering what that looks like in an ongoing practice of some kind, or how that would be created in the first place.
Speaker 1:Right, great, great question, and that's continued to be an evolution for me. But two examples that I'll give. The first is anybody that's ever been through any kind of rehabilitation from an addiction? right, rehabilitation centers can be amazing And the majority of the time people will return to their addiction. Did the rehabilitation center not teach something that they should have? or they not given the right skills and ability? Of course they were, but they have to return to their family and they have to return to the people that don't also share those skills, that also don't share those mindsets and those practices that are happening. So what that looks like, first and foremost, is there are other people there doing the same thing day to day. Even if you're not doing it together, you're just all doing it.
Speaker 1:So the analogy that I'll give here is a gym, right, physical health. 100 years ago, gyms would have been unthinkable, right, like, why would we need a gym? We just go and work. But then a society evolved and changed and we did more desk jobs and some of this stuff. Life got more comfortable.
Speaker 1:We found it necessary to create a space to go simulate some of the things we used to have to do, and that's very much what men's work is right now is as we have moved away from each other as men and become more isolated and not talk to each other, not connecting, not knowing how to be vulnerable with each other.
Speaker 1:We're creating regular places that you can go and get a workout in your masculine health So you can go to a circle that's happening once a week somewhere and just have an opportunity to get together with men and talk and get together and talk about real life and get together to meditate or drop in for a few minutes and say I wonder how I am feeling, what is present for me, because I haven't thought about that in 35 years. I should probably take a second and consider that Having those spaces, having those times to get together and do things with other men Outside of work which the majority of the places that men connect with other men is work, sometimes sports or like a bar All pretty superficial and not going to help you connect further into your own heart. So, if that answers your question, that's part of what I'm trying to do is I'm creating different modalities for men to join together and get a good workout for their masculine health.
Speaker 2:So using this gym analogy, what is the muscle that you're working out in a group like this?
Speaker 1:Oh damn that's a good question Your heart, Just plain and simple. In the world that we live in you look at any movie men are generally allowed to show about three emotions We're allowed to show anger, We're allowed to show pride And, to a certain level, we're able to show some happiness. But even guys that are too happy, everybody like what's up with that guy, Like that there's something off with somebody if they're just, if they're too happy. So being able to open your heart and let the walls down around it and let it heal and let it shine out is what we're working, And we find lots of fun ways to do that. That wouldn't necessarily you wouldn't necessarily think is your heart. Most people wouldn't think that getting punched in your face is going to help you connect into your heart, But it does. For example, that's that's one of the things that we do is we'll have some we call it conscious combat as one of our modalities.
Speaker 2:So hold on. What is conscious combat involved? You got to break that one down. I'm curious now.
Speaker 1:So Fight Club had it like 60 percent right, 50 to 60 percent right, the whole blowing up buildings, like creating. That part I'm not in favor of.
Speaker 2:But I'm out now. You had me go in there for a second.
Speaker 1:Most men, their association with aggression is repression. As young boys, you know, stop fighting, stop rough housing, stop doing that. You're going to make your sister cry, you're going to make your brother cry, you're going to hurt yourself, right. And then if you did experience it, it was generally in the form of some kind of abuse, and then it's the same thing. Don't talk to anybody about this, you're fine, You're blowing this out of proportion or whatever it is.
Speaker 1:Aggression is a very natural masculine trait and characteristic and one that's honestly necessary to our not only our survival but our thriving in society.
Speaker 1:And so when you create a space that is safe for men to get in together, put on some gloves To look each other in the eyes and see this man as your brother, and meet him in that space and say this is my intention, and you get to tell your story, and he gets to hear your story.
Speaker 1:He gets to hear what's going to be hardest for you. You're going to hear what you want to experience. And then you step into that space and you meet your brother there and you box and you get punched in the face. And if you grew up getting punched in the face, there are some demons to face there, right If you grew up being told that you were going to hurt somebody, if you expressed any kind of rough house in your play, something's going to come up there. And so, more often than you would believe, after a two minute round, you're tired but you're crying too. You're crying because you finally got to this place, to where you could release the shame, the guilt, the conditioning, the resentment, whatever it might be around that, and in that you find liberation.
Speaker 2:So that's really interesting to me. It sounds like you're separating the aggression from the animosity, because for most people, the only time they punch someone in the face is if they really don't like that person. And yet there might be a feeling or an aspect of a person that wants to express itself that way And you're sort of creating a safe container for that. Is that an accurate understanding? Yeah, very much so.
Speaker 1:The society that we're in right now because we don't have healthy and safe outlets for a lot of that. When does it happen? It happens when you're drunk and therefore some of your inhibitions have been lowered or lessened. You're not able to be in command of yourself quite at the same level and something snaps, and it generally is not just aggressive but violent and destructive, and with animosity, with contention, and so those are the narratives that we have around that. But when you create a place for that to be healthy, where we don't just box, you can wrestle, you can arm wrestle, you can play, you know, whatever it might be, there's a healthy place for that to be expressed. Then you're at the bar and somebody bumps up against you. There's not 10 layers of things boiling down underneath that, just somebody bumped you, you know. So I think in this expression a lot of the violent and contentious experiences that we have and see with confrontation subside the go away.
Speaker 2:You're reminding me. I've heard it said that conflict can be good and actually bring people closer together if you work it out. In other words, if you have a disagreement with someone and you have a fight with them, but at the end of the fight there's some resolution, the two people are closer than they were at the beginning. And, yeah, it strikes me that a lot of modern culture, because there are mixed gendered spaces everywhere. Women process that conflict differently and so, one, the conflict doesn't often get resolved. And two, there's often different ideas about resolution of the conflict. And so it strikes me that this, this version of conflict resolution, so to speak, is very intentional in that, like there's a clear resolution to it, there's an end, whereas the other thing that happens if there's violence in the real world, so to speak, is that the resolution is usually one person dies or someone gets really seriously hurt and and it isn't resolved in the terms of, you know, there's a clear agreement that it's going to end.
Speaker 1:Right, you know, in in masculinity, in the form of masculinity that I've come to identify with, there are four masculine archetypes, and one of those archetypes is the warrior. The warrior meant something 2000 years ago that would not fit in today's society. It just doesn't right. And so when we talk about warrior energy, aggression is going to be part of that. Now I will say what we're doing in this combat.
Speaker 1:Very rarely do the two guys in the ring together have any kind of an issue with each other at all. Sure, generally what they're resolving is an issue with dad from 30 years ago, right, or an issue with brother or whatever that might be. But yes, in conflict there is a healthy way to express aggression and express frustration, and my experience has generally been that's with a mediator, that's with somebody that can be there impartially, that has love for both of the people there. So, again, this requires people to gather and be together to have that happen, and we have a whole process for that, for conflict resolution as well, that we experienced. But I would very much agree, like as we learn these skills and as we get rid of a lot of the repressed emotion not get rid of, but express a lot of the repressed emotion, conflict resolution becomes much easier, much easier.
Speaker 2:You know, that's something I've struggled with in the spaces that I often work in is that there's a separation between the professional work and the personal development, spiritual work. And I find that, you know, I often get along very well with people who do self development work of some kind, but those aren't always the people I'm encountering when I'm working professionally or trying to hire someone or trying to get someone to hire me, And so I'm wondering if there's a way that you can bring that into you know the quote, unquote, real world and include that in somebody, Because I would love to work with people who are doing this kind of work or who are committed to that kind of conflict resolution. But you know, the overlap isn't always there. So I'm curious how you find that or create that.
Speaker 1:So I'm part of an organization called Embodied Exec and that's part of what we're doing. We're still relatively small and that process is another one of those cultural shifts that is going to take some time to change. But really what needs to happen is that changes from the top down, and so when you can find the CEOs, the presidents, the owners you know whoever it is that can affect change in a company And they can introduce workers, they can introduce people into an environment. they can talk to their HR team and send them for training. They can talk to their sales team and send them for training or bring somebody into their place of employment.
Speaker 1:Our whole mission there is profit through purpose, which necessitates that you know your purpose right, rather than profit over purpose, which is unfortunately generally what we see in the world. So, absolutely, i feel you. This is very needed And it is very much mocked by most of the people in those spaces as hippie, woo-woo kind of weak mindset, and that's just what I think capitalism has evolved into up to this point. It doesn't need to be one against the other, it just needs to be integrated into it. So I completely agree and I believe it's just taking time.
Speaker 2:I'm curious how you would respond to the people who have that objection, that they say oh, this is, you know, weak woo-woo, all those things that you mentioned.
Speaker 1:Right, you know we're seeing it in little places, here and there, we're seeing at least people starting to understand the value of some of this stuff, and it could be something as simple as like hey, we're gonna give you a ping pong table and video games and snacks. Now, that's like the. It's the most basic of steps, but it's I'm going to recognize that you're a human being and that you need to be treated as such, which means you need to be able to rest and relax and have fun once in a while. Right, that was a step in the right direction. Was it placating? maybe a little bit, right, but steps like that is what needs to happen. And as more of those steps happen, you see the proof of concept behind it, and I've been doing this long enough.
Speaker 1:Now for myself that I also am a real estate agent. I've also owned other companies and you know, pursuing other things, that I've put this into practice and I do a lot of public speaking at different sales teams and you know local companies here in Utah to talk about these exact things. You know we have so many CEOs, so many millionaires that are absolutely miserable And, unfortunately, we just needed enough time to show that money was not going to get you all the happiness and fulfillment that you wanted in life. So there are more and more people getting the lack of a proof of concept over here with making all the money and more people with the proof of concept of, hey, maybe I'm making a little less, but I actually love myself and my employees love their lives and want to stay. You know the way you sell it. You talk about employee retention, you talk about workplace environment. You talk about productivity increase. You know that type of stuff, but what really happens is you just like it's better because you learn that work life, integration and harmony.
Speaker 2:I appreciate what you said about capitalism and profit over purpose, because a lot of the ideas that we have around masculinity came about as a result of industrialization.
Speaker 2:If you read, for example, the writings of the medieval knights or King Arthur and his men, there's a lot of stories of men openly weeping at various things that happen.
Speaker 2:And it's during the industrial revolution that there's a shift in attitudes where factory owners begin to see that as a problem or as a waste of time, because if you are essentially turning people into tools, into machines that just have to screw one widget in, then you don't need things like emotion, and so then emotion becomes a quote, unquote non-masculine trait, whereas the work that we do now, or that most people do now, does require them to do more than just turn one bolt in, and it actually the emotions a person has do impact it in some way. So I think there's maybe also a shift in people and people's attitudes towards this, because there's been a shift in what's required of men and what work is actually useful, and so I would be curious if there's any difference in who accepts it, which groups you see as being most likely and most willing to accept this site type of stuff and which are most resistant to it. I would be curious to know what sort of response you've gotten from different groups.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let me start by saying this In that warrior archetype, in each archetype, there are polarizations. There's an active and a passive polarization. The warrior archetype, the active polarization, is the sadist right. And that was that boss that was like you will do this, stop crying, i don't care. Right. He's driven by fear. He wants his productivity to go up, right.
Speaker 1:And we recognize the misalignment on that side. And, adaptive beings as we are, on the other side of that is the masochist. And really what we see so often with men is really doubling down on that. If I'm not suffering, i must not be doing enough. If I'm not miserable, something must be wrong. And so it started, maybe over here, with the sadist telling us that. And then we bought it and now we're down for it. Right, we should be suffering, that's right, and we idealize it. Growing up in my own family And it's not just my family, but in my own family, look how hard that works. That's miserable, that is tired, he's exhausted, he hates his job. Be so grateful, right, love him more. And we celebrate the misalignment And I know I've fallen into that myself many times.
Speaker 1:So in that awareness of those polarizations and then coming back into alignment, we recognize again the need for integration of those things. So to answer your first question, who do I see buying into it? those that can afford to. If somebody is working for another company and they have a nine to five job and it's quite strict and they have protocols and they have quotas and there's not room in the budget for them to go to retreat if there's not time for them to get away and do these other things, at least in the story they're telling themselves they're not pursuing it. Those that are entrepreneurs, those that own companies, those that have maybe reached a certain level of success in their own lives, that now maybe their sales position is a little more relaxed, they're seeking that stuff out because they're recognizing the damage they've done to themselves by getting to that point. So those are the differences, probably in the groups that I don't even think it's a matter of who's willing. It's just a matter of who thinks they can.
Speaker 2:It's really interesting. a lot of the stuff that you're talking about feels to me like human work, even though you're calling it work around masculinity. it's just that men have been harmed or uniquely impacted by systems in certain ways, and so the healing there is different for them than someone else who's been in a different system or who had different cultural programming. Because it's does that mean is that fair to say?
Speaker 1:Absolutely it is And that's I think that's an important thing to say as well There's no exclusivity in the suffering of the masculine and men to really anybody else. That is the group that I identify with, that is the group that resonates with me and that I feel called to serve, and so there are modalities, there are methods, there are effective things that can be done to help that group, and that group does have a large level of influence in the world. So, as that group is affected in these positive ways, my intention is that that will move out into other groups as well, and that's important. And there are other people that are pursuing that, and I can go into beautiful women's work that I'm seeing happen and work that is done really without a focus on masculine, feminine energies or gender at all, as well, but that's more where I'm focused.
Speaker 2:Well, is there a part of this that is uniquely masculine and, if so, what?
Speaker 1:The experience that men have been having the past hundred years is different than the experience that women have been having for the past hundred years.
Speaker 1:So the way that men have been raised, the way that men have been conditioned, the things that men believe they need to be and the things that they believe they should and shouldn't feel, i believe is more common in men than it is in women.
Speaker 1:And so, to point out one specific thing, i'd have to think about that Something as simple as crying right, if a man cries versus if a woman cries, there are different assumptions made about that who that person is, if that's a good thing, if that's a bad thing, and those need to be addressed with those people.
Speaker 1:I know, with men, for example, if we're gonna talk about pornography, there is no way they're ready. Many men, most men, there is no way they're ready to talk about that in front of women. And then I've also met other men that will only talk about that with women because they don't feel safe talking about that with men. So, just like everything else in our world, it's gotten much smaller. We're seeing all different sides of this and a lot of different aspects and dynamics that maybe we didn't see before, and I've seen a group that I know benefits from a focus on the masculine, from the masculine, and as they step into healthier aspects of themselves, they're then able to have a better effect on the feminine in their life, the other masculine in their life, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 2:So if someone does all this work, if they go to groups like this, if they connect to different aspects of themselves and other people, what's the end result? In other words, if say they do it all, then what?
Speaker 1:Awareness. That, to me, is really what any of us are going for in life. Any healing journey, any modality that we use, everything that we do is to bring further awareness as to one, why we did the things that we did, why we're doing the things that we're doing, and the awareness of choice that we can do something different in the future, in 2020, i didn't feel like I had a lot of choices. I did, but I wasn't doing enough work. I wasn't aware of enough things to see the choices that I had in front of me. I saw one choice. Fortunately, i saw two, but that one choice was becoming more and more prevalent. So we see that every day People that feel like they only have one choice anymore And unfortunately, that suicide greatly affects men more than women, and especially men that are between the ages of about 30 and 50.
Speaker 1:So I feel very responsible and very motivated to get in front of as many men as possible and make sure that they are aware of the choices that they have. The simple choice that you can be sad, that that's okay. That doesn't mean you fail. That doesn't mean that you're weak. That doesn't mean that it's all over. That doesn't mean that women aren't going to desire you anymore, that doesn't mean your children aren't going to respect you anymore. All of these things are thoughts that men have had about being sad. So when they realize that it's okay to be sad and they are everything changes. So that, to me, is the end result A further and higher state of awareness and from that, the ability to make more choices and experience more growth.
Speaker 2:I feel like a lot of people don't understand what more awareness actually means. In other words, you say that and then they go okay, well, i know more, but so what? Right? Like, what does that actually mean? And I know that as I've grown in my own awareness. It feels like there's lots of choices, not just one or two. So I'm curious if you could paint a picture of what awareness actually looks like in someone's life.
Speaker 1:That is an excellent proposal. The way that we are raised as people and again I'm generalizing here, right, but the amount of men that I've talked to over the past three and a half years the way that men are raised is you need to be strong, and strong means you don't show emotion, you just don't okay. And if you do, you are weak. Plain and simple, straightforward. Whether we say it like that or not, that is what we're taught From a very young age.
Speaker 1:The kid that's playing t-ball and falls down and mom said oh, don't cry. Why the hell not, right? But that's what we're told don't cry. The dad that said oh, just rub some dirt on it, right? The coach is like oh yeah, you cut your knee open, we're gonna celebrate the fact that you're bleeding, walk it off. We're conditioned from like infants to not cry, to not feel, to be strong. This is just one example, right? So if you grow up with that and anytime you feel any of those things, rather than expressing it, rather than working through it, rather than saying why, am I sad, right.
Speaker 1:Let me tell a story. So I'm gonna do a tangent on a tangent. I'm nine years old. I'm in the store with my dad. I still a candy bar. Okay, this may or may not be based on true events. The store catches me stealing a candy bar. So what happens after that? What is the fallout?
Speaker 1:Well, the store's upset, right, because they were stolen from Makes sense. I need to make things right with the store. My dad is upset because his son stole and generally most men respond to something like that with frustration and anger. Okay, my mom is sad because now her son is this hardened criminal and is looking at a life of crime going forward. And most people. God is also upset and sad, right, because you've broken one of God's laws to not steal. So what does this young boy do? He needs to make the store feel better. He needs to make dad feel better. He needs to make mom feel better. He needs to make God feel better.
Speaker 1:Nobody ever asks him why he stole the candy bar. What awareness is he going to have from that going forward? He's not going to think about why I do the things that I do. He's going to learn to not get caught because that's awful, right. Or if I do get caught, i better be really good at managing that situation. So now, that is what the boys awareness is.
Speaker 1:If we teach and we learn, we say, hey, what was going on there? What was going on for you that you stole that? What's going on with your school? What's going on with your personal life, right? And we're talking about these things, and this young man starts to be able to associate the choices he's making with the boys. He's going to associate the choices he's making with the things he's feeling, with the things that he's experiencing in life. He now has awareness. He's now going to make different choices. Right, repeat that process in enough different things over time, and we're going to just start to churn out one particular type of man, right?
Speaker 1:So, again going back, the same thing happens with our emotions. If it's pride or anger, you're good. I've been taught by society that I can express those. But anger, again, not too much. Only, unlike the cool ways that movies show anger, everything else you oppress. You're not going to see that you have a choice to do anything else with any of your emotions. Right, if we teach men that it is okay to feel sad, it is okay to feel silly, playful, that it's okay to be afraid, that it's okay to be angry all of these things like really angry when you're ugly crying and throwing a fit, stomping your arms on the ground, right. Then that young man starts to understand why he's feeling those things. He gets to start exploring that And now, the awareness of the emotions that he has.
Speaker 1:It's like being able to go from seeing black and white to seeing color TV. Right, does black and white TV? Yeah, you can get by with it, it's okay. We did that for a lot of years, but then we had color TV. Then what happened? Technology improved And now we have the awareness of this thing called HD, and none of us had that even in our awareness. We didn't know that was a possibility. Then it happened, and now it's kind of hard to imagine life without it And that will just continue to happen, right. So I don't know if that answers your question, but as you wake up, you know the things you know and you know the things that you don't know. But you don't know the things that you don't know And that's a whole lot. That's like most of the universe.
Speaker 2:Well, it gives me a follow-up question. Please, why did the boy steal the candy bar You?
Speaker 1:know, on all fairness to my father, i do think he asked me, but my dad is about my same size, which is very large, and I could tell he was very upset. So I just was very intent on telling him that that's not what I did, why the boy stole the candy bar. I think the boy had a lot of scarcity mindset even at a young age And he was already starting to kind of hoard and set things aside out of fear. That's only something that I figured out last year, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's interesting. What you're describing is essentially gentle parenting. Gentle parenting is about trying to understand why children do things, as opposed to just control their behavior through your reaction. So if you punish them when they do things that you don't want and then reward them when they do what you do, the behavior might be there, but the internal world is going to be very different, right?
Speaker 1:I've got four children And I consider myself to be a very good dad And I absolutely recognize the way that I did those exact things that you were talking about when they would. I consider myself a good dad because I didn't necessarily punish them when they did bad, but when they did good I would. I would reward them, and when they felt discomfort, you know what I did Hey, let's go get some ice cream, let's go sit in front of a TV and eat some ice cream. And I taught them to repress. I've been so frustrated with myself recognizing that I did those things.
Speaker 1:The best shift that I have made as a parent is to get really, really curious, anything that they do, whether I think it's good or whether I think it's bad. Hey, what's going on? What was that about? What are you feeling about that? What are you feeling about life? How can I support you in that? Why are you upset? Are you upset? Why are you upset? And just asking questions? I don't have to do a whole heck of a lot. I direct them back into themselves And, shockingly, all the answers are already there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's amazing how much awareness will answer the question or solve the problem in and of itself. In other words, it sounds like if your family had realized that you had a scarcity mindset, you were worried about not having enough and they taught you how to get the things you wanted you probably would have had to steal them, right.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I understand I get defensive of my family when I tell this story The retrospect is 2020. Sure, and thank goodness for that, because that's how we learn And my parents made lots of mistakes And, great, i get to learn from those And they get to learn from those, and I've made a lot of mistakes in parenting And my willingness to go back and look at those. I get to learn from those as well. And, honestly, it's never too late. As much as we like to tell ourselves it's too late for us to change, it's not.
Speaker 2:I wanted to ask you about one piece of that story, which is that I really liked the phrase God is upset. We have to make God feel better, because I grew up in the evangelical Christian world And I'm very familiar with this sort of strange relationship with God that a lot of traditional families teach And it sounds like a lot of the work that you're doing. I mean, the group's name is even Sacred Sons, right, so it sounds like there is an intersection between that and spirituality And I'm curious what spirituality looks like in a group like that and what they sort of teach. That might be different than a codependent relationship with God, so to speak.
Speaker 1:Right, it's a good question. Sacred Sons itself does not necessarily have any dogma or defined belief systems. Absolutely, there is an implied belief in a higher power And anybody is welcome to bring their understanding of that with them or their disagreement of that with them. Right, there are people there that will call it God or Heavenly Father or Source or Universe or Mother God or Pachamama or whatever it might be, and all of those people are welcome with that.
Speaker 1:I run something here locally called the Utah Men's Circle And, being in Utah, there is predominance of the LDS faith And that's the way that I grew up And that, honestly, is still very important to me. Where I have started to differentiate culturally is similar to the Old Testament versus the New Testament. The Old Testament and the Bible you look in, god was pretty angry, god was very vengeful. You touch this thing, you're going to die. There's just no ifs ands and buts about it. The New Testament, god became much more loving, much more understanding, much more forgiving, and my belief in God, my relationship with God, very much falls in line with Christ's primary teachings, which was to love God, to love your neighbor, and the prerequisite to that being love yourself. And so that is as I reflect on your question, what is shared there at Sacred Sons?
Speaker 1:there's an openness and a willingness to accept people in their beliefs And there's an invitation for people to look at their beliefs and to make sure that those beliefs are actually benefiting them And that they're benefiting their growth, if they're benefiting their awareness, if they're benefiting those around them And not benefiting as far as, like, i want to do this thing and my God says that I can't, so that's not benefiting me. No, not like that. But to say, you know, within my religion, the belief is X And that really runs contrary to what I believe about this Y. Let's talk and we get really curious. And is there a resolution for you in that? Or is that something that you would need to step away from, but never, never mandated, never practically even brought up, but just the invitation is there.
Speaker 2:If someone goes to a group like this, do they usually have an intention or a preexisting thing that they know they want to work on? Or is it better to go sort of open ended and say I don't know what, I don't know and we'll find out?
Speaker 1:Both have happened. What's interesting is there is a percentage of men that show up because my wife has fed up, or my mother or my family or whoever it might be. They're just done with me, and this is kind of my last-ditch effort And so those people show up really not knowing what to expect and without a certain intention around it, other than this is going to appease those that are in my life, other people and I'm answering your question over the evolution of the past couple of years because I believe initially it was born more from urgency and emergency. And again going back to the gym analogy, i was a personal trainer for a number of years And oftentimes, who were the clients that would talk to me? They were the ones that had just had the heart attack, just been diagnosed with diabetes.
Speaker 1:After the problem, it was time to address this stuff, and so oftentimes that still happens, and at least once a week I'm introduced to a man who the gambling addiction finally caught up with him, or he finally just had a mental breakdown at work, or he was diagnosed with cancer, whatever it might be. And so now it's time to really start looking at my life. That is the culture. That is the number one cultural shift that I'm trying to affect is to proactively start addressing your masculine health, the same way we need to start proactively addressing our physical health. The same way we need to start addressing our emotional, mental, sexual, financial, whatever it might be. In this country we are very reactive. You look at our healthcare system. It is not designed to benefit those that want to be proactive with their health. It is designed to put band-aids on things, quite literally. So we have taken that and applied that to a lot of different aspects of our life And it's not working out well.
Speaker 2:So if someone's listening to this and they want to be proactive so proactive that they're not even going to wait to go to one of these events or something like it they want to just do something right after listening to this podcast, what's something they could do?
Speaker 1:Reach out to me. They could reach out to me, and I run weekly online group coaching for men And we have a brotherhood that continues to grow of men that are doing this now every week, and we have different again, modalities, different things that we offer for you to be able to start to explore and gain further awareness. You could also, if you're listening to this podcast, i'm hoping that means you're willing to listen to some other ones. Sacred Sons has a weekly podcast where they're addressing different components of this as well. There's some exploration there. Do a Google search and see if there is a men's group or a men's circle in your local area. If you're not, you know, able to find that personally. Again, reach out to me. I'm pretty well connected across at least the United States where I can put you in contact with other men that are doing that same work.
Speaker 2:How should one evaluate a men's group? You know, if you go, how do you determine if it's right for you or if it's a space that you should be going to regularly?
Speaker 1:No question, and I have a bias here, but that bias is based again, a proof of concept and what I've been studying for a number of years There are a couple of different types of men's groups. There's the men's group that is based on, like military ideology We are going to tear you down, turn you into nothing and then build you back up the way that we want you to be. That, to me, is one of the worst things that you can do. It is not going to help you. It is. It's going to feel really good in the moment because you're going to, adrenaline is going to get going and it's going to kick in. All this conditioning of, like Rocky music and every military movie you've ever seen, and like right, testosterone is going to flow, but your level of awareness I've not seen that be affected the same way.
Speaker 1:On the opposite end, there is the men's groups that are the male apologists, which you're awful, i'm awful. We're all pieces of crap or murderers, rapists, we're serial killers, and we just need to talk about how awful we are to each other. Also, not sustainable. Do we need to understand what we individually have done in our lives and what we as a gender have done specifically here, but really all over the world. Yes, we do. We need to understand that, and there's a level of accountability that comes with that. And just saying that you're garbage and apologizing for being garbage, all that that's not going to result in anything either, right?
Speaker 1:So the middle ground being find a men's group. That's real curious about you. The men's groups that I run it is not Joe's group, look at Joe do what Joe does, right? Joe loves you, so I facilitate it. I find the location, i set it up, i pay for it sometimes, right? The men's group that I do here's free, for example. But and then I'm just really curious about who you are, how you're feeling and how I can support you in that. If you find a men's group where you've got one person that's telling you they have all the answers, i haven't seen that as a sustainable option either. So you're really looking for a group and you're really looking for a circle where everybody there is going to treat you as an equal and really value who you are and what you're bringing to the table as well, even when you can't see what you're bringing.
Speaker 2:It sounds like to come full circle. You're looking for a group that will help increase your authentic self, rather than just give you a really well designed mask that they've built for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great way to put it All of you is welcome here. That is one of the statements we make in Sacred Sons. Not all of you are welcome here also, true, but all of you is welcome here. So bring all your parts. Bring the parts that you think are ugly. Bring the parts that you're ashamed of. Bring the parts you don't tell people about, because, come to find out, you're not the only one. You're not the only one that's been struggling with those. You're not the only one that's been told they're bad. You're not the only one that wants to be a better version of yourself.
Speaker 2:And there is catharsis and there's healing just in knowing that there's a man that feels what you feel and that cares that you're feeling it That made a connection for me, because in the past when I've seen men's groups, i think I've seen a lot of the other two types that you describe, of a sort of disciplinarian or self-abasement of some kind, and because of that I've had sort of a mixed feeling about them, because some aspects are like the ones that you've been describing in this conversation and then some are like those other aspects that you mentioned earlier And I like the model of do these people care about my feelings as like a real, just simple question to know whether or not the group might be one. We're staying in.
Speaker 1:Certainly There's space for that. Again, we've seen this often times in capitalism, where you become a number and you become part of a bottom line. Right, should people be compensated for the gifts and talents that they have? Absolutely, and are you so much more than the dollars that you contribute to that? Yes, you are. Find someone that understands both of those things. I think that's a great way to put that.
Speaker 2:It's making some connections for other things for me, because I've also been in professional activists, all sorts of other different environments where I could tell people didn't care about my feelings. They saw that I was successful in some way and that that success might lead to something for them, or they saw an opportunity that I could help them with. And I'm wondering how you handle those environments, those environments where you're not free to bring your full self, especially after you've you know it's another challenge of how you get a taste of spaces where it is okay to be yourself, you know, being around people where it's not okay, how is it that you handle that And go ahead?
Speaker 1:So me personally, i've become much more comfortable stepping away from those spaces. I feel like I spent a lot of my life fighting for my worth and trying to convince others of my worth, and that's exhausting, right. So, as I understand my worth and I accept that for myself, i'm not really interested in convincing anybody else of that. Now there are a lot of people who will say that, and they say it with a certain level of sass It's like I'm not going to prove myself to anybody or anything like that And there's a currently still a chip on the shoulder around that right Where there's, there's some room that probably needs to be addressed there where you didn't feel valued the way that you needed to feel, and so it doesn't need to be a big fit. It doesn't need to be a you know I'm leaving and I'm quitting and you don't value me and I value. No, you just. You simply go where you are valued, you go where your desired, you go where you're wanted and you're very comfortable knowing that there's somewhere for that. If it's not where you're at, it's going to be somewhere that has to come from inside first, right. That, to me, is if there's, if there's, any ideology or any of the things that I I teach that I believe very strongly.
Speaker 1:It is recognizing how much of my life I live from the outside, in, where I would wake up in the morning and I would say I hope my partner is nice to me, i hope my boss is nice to me, i hope the weather is good, i hope the economy is good, i hope the government does the things that I wanted to do, and if everybody else obeys and behaves themselves, then I have a chance in hell of maybe being happy and feeling valued.
Speaker 1:That is a losing battle, but I did that for a long time and you spend most of your time again managing everybody else's expectations, managing everybody else's emotions. When you make the switch and say what do I want to create today? How do I feel about me? I value me And I want to create something good and beautiful beautiful driven from a place of love versus that other thing which is from fear. Well, now it doesn't matter what the economy is doing and it doesn't matter what my boss is doing and it doesn't matter what my partner is doing. I am in command of how I show up in the world. I'm not in command of any of them and I don't have to be, but now I get to value me and I get to know what I'm about. I get to know my worth and I operate from that place in a much more effortless way.
Speaker 2:It feels a lot better. Yeah, control is a losing game. Well, is there anything that you want to talk about that we didn't talk about? Anything? you wish I'd asked you that I didn't, or that we wanted to get to you, that we just sort of skipped over?
Speaker 1:That first event that I did with Sacred Sons. As I stood there kind of astounded and not sure exactly what it was I experienced, and I was surrounded by this group of 40 men, my first thought was I don't know how to take this home to my own family, to my own community, and what I have done over the past three years, what I've been learning, two things. The first, to be best described in a quote by St Francis of Assisi, lived like a thousand years ago and was talking about the church. But he said preach the gospel at all times. When necessary, use words. And I believe that is true to anything that we are passionate about. That, as we embody it as we are, simply go about being it. That is the best form of preaching there can be. And so my mission, my goal, is to be embodying this and to really be about the work, as much as I love to talk about it, more importantly it is to be about it.
Speaker 1:And then, secondly, i was unaware of anybody here locally where I lived, that was doing this type of stuff, and I've been to enough of those sales retreats and Tony Robbins and so many of those other type of things that I knew if I didn't make some changes, nothing was going to change. And so I did. I started a local Utah men's circle And the first time nobody showed up. The second time nobody showed up. But it was important to me so I kept going And I've since created this online group called the Algeez Guard that I run to be another offering for men and to have another place that man can go to do this work.
Speaker 1:So if this is something you feel called to, know that you're not alone, know that you're not alone, know that there are people that truly care about you, not because of the money you're going to provide them. It's because you're you that you have value and that there are resources here to help you, to support you, and not just what I'm providing but with so many others are doing in so many beautiful ways. You have to give yourself permission to value yourself enough to be willing to bring it into your life, and ultimately that is affected. Every other aspect of my life, the way that I show up in my own family, the way that I show up in my career, the way that I show up in my religion, the way that I show up for my physical health, everything It has had a profound and beautiful effect for which I will forever be grateful. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Joe, i can say, having met you in person which is a lot of my guests I've only communicated with like this that I do feel like you really embody a lot of the values that you've talked about here, And that that was what initially made me want to talk with you in this format was seeing you in person and noticing the energy with which you carry yourself. So thank you for doing that. Thank you, brandon.
Speaker 1:I accept that and I am grateful for that. With with the caveat, and maybe it, maybe it doesn't need to be said, but I'm going to say it anyway. This will continue to be a work in progress for me, like it is everybody else. I think the the detriment to social media and some of the things we see is that assumption and that mask that Joe must have it all together. I don't. I'm working hard and I continue to learn and I continue to evolve And I think it's important for leaders to speak to those things. I think it's important to be a leader and to speak to the fact that you're not perfect, but you can still be a leader. As a matter of fact, you need to be. So. Thank you, brandon.
Speaker 2:Thank you. If people want to connect with you, join a men's group or join your online group, where should they do that?
Speaker 1:My Instagram page is my name at Joe Spearden. We can put that in the notes because it's kind of a spell. And then the online stuff that I run is called the Algeez Guard also kind of hard to spell, but that can be there Algeez Guard dot com, if you wanted to sign up for that weekly men's group that I run online primarily online. So those will be the two best methods, cool.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for talking with me today. Thank you, thank you for listening to the Brandon Marata show. If you like this episode, please subscribe and leave a positive review. On whatever platform you listen to podcasts on, if you really like this show, please become a supporter of the show. Go to brendanmaratacom slash show and become a monthly paying member. Supporters get access to special bonus videos and videos that you can find on the website. If you're interested in getting a new podcast, please subscribe to the channel. If you're interested in getting a new podcast, please subscribe to the channel And become a monthly paying member. Supporters get access to special bonus content and episodes only available to them. So become a supporter at brendanmaratacom slash show. Thank you again for listening to this episode and I will talk to you all later.