Episode 98: Greener by Default with Katie Cantrell

In the latest episode of the Plant-Based Canada Podcast, we chat with Kati Cantrell. Katie is a social entrepreneur passionate about creating a healthy, sustainable, and just food system. As the founder of the New Roots Institute, Katie spent a decade leading food policy workshops at universities, government agencies, and Fortune 500 corporations.

She is now utilizing her expertise to implement plant-based defaults in institutional foodservice as the CEO and Co-Founder of Greener by Default. The organization offers strategies to institutions that serve food about how to incorporate plant-based defaults, and use behavioural economics research to help people lean toward healthier choices.

Katie holds a Bachelor’s degree in psychology from UC Berkeley. Her work with GBD was recently featured in the New York Times, and she was chosen for Vox’s Future Perfect 50 list of innovators, thinkers, and changemakers for 2024.

Resources

Greener by Default

“We're being nudged to eat meat. What if the tables were turned?”

Bonus Promotion

Check out University of Guelph's online Plant-Based Nutrition Certificate. Each 4-week course will guide you through essential plant-based topics including nutritional benefits, disease prevention, and environmental impacts. You can also customize your learning with unique courses such as Plant-Based Diets for Athletes and Implementing a Plant-Based Diet at Home. As the first university-level plant-based certificate in Canada, you’ll explore current research, learn from leading industry experts, and join a community of like-minded people. Use our exclusive discount code PBC2025 to save 10% on all Plant-Based Nutrition Certificate courses. uoguel.ph/pbn.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to the Plant-Based Canada Podcast. Join us as we talk with experts to explore the field of nutritional sciences and how our food choices impact our health and the environment. We sit down with Canadian doctors, dietitians, athletes, climate experts, and more to break down the evidence behind a whole foods plant-based diet and discuss the practical steps you can take in your effort to shift toward a healthier lifestyle.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Today I talked to Katie Contrell. Katie is a social entrepreneur passionate about creating a healthy, sustainable, and just food system. As the founder of the New Roots Institute, Katie spent a decade leading food policy workshops at universities, government agencies, and Fortune 500 corporations. She's now utilizing her expertise to implement plant-based defaults and institutional food service as the CEO and co-founder of Greener by Default. Katie holds a bachelor's degree in psychology from UC Berkeley. Her work with Greener by Default was recently featured in the New York Times, and she was chosen for VOX Future Perfect 50 list of innovators, thinkers, and change makers for 2024.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Do you want to take your plant-based knowledge to the next level? The online plant-based nutrition certificate through open learning and educational support at the University of Wealth has everything you need to know about implementing a sustainable plant-based diet. Each course is just four weeks long and will guide you through essential topics, including nutritional benefits, disease prevention, and environmental impacts. You can also customize your learning with unique courses such as plant-based diets for athletes and implementing a plant-based diet at home. As the first university-level plant-based certificate in Canada, you'll explore current research, learn from leading industry experts, and join a community of like-minded people. Use our exclusive discount code PVC2025 to save 10% on all plant-based nutrition certificate courses. The discount code is valid until December 31st, 2025. Learn more about this certificate program and find the discount code in the description below. And if you enjoyed this episode, please consider supporting our show through the show and the link at the bottom of the show notes. Or you can donate directly through our website. It's a pleasure to have you on the show.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

So before we get into your work with Greener by default, I always like to ask some biographical questions so that the listeners can get to know you a little better. So I'm curious what led you down this path in the first place and what really initiated your interest in diet nutrition and public policy around these things?

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Yeah, so I've always loved animals and I got involved in an animal advocacy group in college and learned about the factory farming system and the injustices of it, not just for animals, but also for the environment, for frontline communities, for public health, and just felt very passionately that this system is really broken and doesn't benefit anyone, even if you don't care whatsoever about animals. And so shortly after graduating from college, I actually founded a nonprofit, which is now called the New Roots Institute, that was really focused on educating people about the impacts of our food system. And I did that for about a decade. I gave very depressing presentations to, you know, schools, community groups, businesses, government agencies, but I saw firsthand that it is very difficult to change people's behavior by giving them facts. That's just the unfortunate reality. I studied psychology in school. And so I was very taken by this concept of choice architecture, the idea that we can change people's behavior just by making the better choice the easy choice. And then we don't even have to get into all the depressing stats and pictures and all that. So yeah, that was my trajectory.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

I guess on the same note, so so college levels when you got involved in all that stuff. And I imagine in terms of you being conscious of animal welfare and then also diet nutrition and the climate aspect of everything kind of came fast and furious. But did you did you have any inspiration when you were younger? Were there any family members that you had that that cared about healthy eating or anything like that? And was it easy for you to transition, or did you have to kind of go in levels when you started changing your diet?

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Yeah, it's an interesting question. I didn't really have much inspiration in terms of healthy eating. We were a fast food family growing up. My parents didn't cook much. Each of them had like kind of one signature dish they would make maybe once a week. But other than that, we were eating a lot of takeout and a lot of fast food. I mean, I did, I did get to cook with my aunt and with my grandma. Um, I don't know that it was necessarily the healthiest food, but I did get a joy of cooking from them that really came in handy as I started to become an adult and transition my own diet. So it was, it was definitely a slow learning process, I would say. And the people that I met in college too, friends really helped. Um, I lived in like co-ops in college and as an adult, and that was really fun to just see the different styles of cooking and the different seasonings that people use and different ingredients. So that's really how I kind of learned by by doing and by watching the other people around me.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

So talk to me about the main goal behind greener by default and the, I guess, the pervasiveness of meat and animal products that we see in Western culture.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

So the main idea of greener by default is to help institutional food service, so hospitals, university, and corporate cafeterias, large events, to nudge people towards more plant-based options using these techniques from behavioral science. We don't really think about it often, but the way that food is laid out and presented really has a big impact on our behavior. This is called choice architecture. It's a concept out of behavioral economics. You know, a classic example of this that people might have heard about is like at the grocery store when you're checking out, it's usually candy bars that are right at your eye level. Those impulse purchases, they want you to spend more money. And so they put these things that are really tempting and it's hard to have the willpower to say no. There have been some initiatives to get them to put fruit there instead, you know, healthy food to catch your eye. So thinking about what we're really guiding people towards, what we're making the easy choice or the normal choice. And at greener by default, we are really working to flip that norm. So right now, pretty much everywhere, meat is the default, and you have to specially opt into plant-based options, which really only strict vegetarians or vegans bother to do or even think to do in the first place. And so we're working to make plant-based the default, but give people the choice to opt into meat and dairy. So this helps to normalize the healthy low-carbon plant-based options, but still preserves freedom of choice. So you don't get the same kind of backlash you do to like a meatless Mondays, where people tend to resent having choices taken away from them or having a certain diet forced onto them.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

If you, we've talked a lot about it on this podcast, but if you zoom out and you look at specifically the Canadian food guide, not necessarily all of them, but specifically the Canadian one, and then you look at the overall data for health and wellness, you cross-reference that with what you see on menus, and they don't really sync up. You look at the Canadian food guide and you see specifically that there's a push for more plant-based foods. You look at the Lancet study, there's a push for more plant-based foods. There seems to be a major disconnect there. Can you talk to me a little bit about why that is?

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Yeah, it's unfortunate and it continues to persist. It's been decades now that there's been this huge over-emphasis on protein, and that's really the result of huge marketing budgets from big ag from the meat and dairy industry. In the United States, the nutrition curriculum in elementary schools is often directly from the dairy industry. You know, schools here are underfunded, they don't really have curriculum for it. And so the dairy industry comes and says, here, we have all of these fun little worksheets for you, and we'll come to a school visit. And, you know, teachers say, Great, I didn't have the bandwidth to create my own content. So we get these messages from a very early age that meat and dairy are absolutely necessary for your health. And, you know, there's paid influencers, there's nutritionists who write these op-eds that are funded by the industry, just really pushing like protein, protein, protein. And it's so ironic because, you know, apologies, I'm based in the US, so I know US specific stats, but um, here anyway, the average American eats more than twice as much protein as is recommended, but less than 5% of Americans are getting the amount of fiber that's recommended. So we're eating way too much protein and not nearly enough fiber, which comes from fruits and vegetables and legumes. And so we've seen, you know, the health outcomes are not great in the United States, but still we're persisting on like, you know, first it was Atkins, and now it's paleo and keto, like people just keep being drawn to these like super meat-heavy diets, even though that's not what the research shows.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

I want to ask you about the psychology side of things. But before I do, really quick question on you mentioned the the lobbyists and and the uh social influencers and things like that. And those have major influence on the public at large, it seems. With greener by default, have you ever experienced any pushback? Um, given that we know how strong some of these groups are in gearing the population to consume more protein or meat products or anything like that?

SPEAKER_02 8:55

We have not, thankfully, yet. I think we're probably still too small fry to really be on their radar. But I mean, we certainly encounter the impacts of their, I don't know if propaganda is too strong a word, but you know, of their marketing efforts. Um, you know, for instance, I was talking with a dining director about an oat milk default, which is one of the things that we do in coffee bars, like instead of dairy milk as a default, and you have to request oat milk, just make oat milk the default, give people the choice to request dairy. And he was saying, you know, I love oat milk actually, but I just saw this video on TikTok about how it actually it's really bad for your health and dairy is better for you. So now I'm not sure if we should be serving oat milk to our customers if it's not good. And so, you know, unfortunately, these messages that they they're spreading through social media are really pervasive. And there was actually a great, there's been a couple of pieces of investigative journalism that have found that these narratives about ultra-processed foods and the health scares around plant-based products traced directly from the meat industry. And they've hired this one um PR firm that worked for big tobacco, they worked for big oil, they've used the same playbook um for meat and dairy, and unfortunately to great effect. So we we definitely do have to counteract some of that misinformation.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Yeah, you're right. There is actually some good journalism around it, but it's just not well known, I guess, by the public that that seems to be the case. Onto the psychological side of things, and I know you have some background in this, so you can uh speak specifically to that, but the psychological side of things when it comes to choosing things on menus does come into play. And despite, like you said, non-vegetarian restaurants having vegetarian options, there still seems to be a mental block with a lot of people when they go to a restaurant. And seeing that on the menu, it's it's kind of set aside. This is for this group of people versus everything else on the menu that is for the normal customer, I suppose. Can you talk to me about that uh mental block that people, I guess, face when they go out to eat?

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's several different factors that discourage people from choosing foods that are labeled as vegetarian, vegan, meatless, or as healthy, or new research is showing even as sustainable. Part of the reason for that is that all of those labels signal to people, this is gonna taste like cardboard, I'm gonna be hungry in 20 minutes. You know, when people are at a restaurant or there's, you know, they're at a dining hall, there's food right in front of them, their stomach is rumbling. We're really, we're so motivated by the immediate gratification of, you know, these tastes that I love. I want it to be really indulgent, I want it to be really juicy, I want to feel really satiated afterwards. And so some of this language around plant-based and healthy signals the opposite to people that I would be making a sacrifice if I choose this item. And then also there's identity triggers. So there's this idea that plant-based food is just for vegetarians and vegans. And so if I'm not a vegetarian, then this food is not for me and I will stick to the normal option. And sometimes that's even an altruistic thing. We see this a lot in offices, like catered meetings, that the vegetarian option runs out and because omnivores take it because it looks tasty. And then the people who are fully vegetarian then go hungry. There's nothing for them to eat. And so a lot of times omnivores will actually be discouraged from taking the vegetarian option so they can leave it for the vegetarians. But, you know, of course, we want everyone to be encouraged to try the healthier and more sustainable options. And so that's really why we work to normalize those as a great choice for everyone to really encourage flexitarianism and get outside of this concept that, you know, plant-based food is just for vegetarians.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Tell me how uh Greener by default is working with organizations to change this. I uh uh I know specifically that you have worked with hospitals and universities. Hospitals I find very interesting because I know on kind of the plant-based side of things, there has been criticism about people in hospitals getting heart disease, and in the lobby, there's a Wendy's or a Burger King or something like that, which is counterintuitive. But it seems to also be the default, even in hospitals where things should be, where health should be promoted, I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

Yes. So that is one of the major sectors that we work in and where we're actually seeing the most movement, which is hopeful, but also a no-brainer, right? That hospitals should be serving health promoting food. So our one of our biggest successes and an early win was working with New York City Health and Hospitals. We partnered with um Sedexo, who runs our food service with the mayor's office and with health and hospitals to pilot plant-based defaults for patient meals. So, how it works there, they have what's called bedside ordering. So a food service associate comes in and there's two chef specials each day. So the patients can choose between those chef specials. If they don't want those, there's other, there's a static menu of options to choose from. And prior to the pilot, they did meatless Mondays, but every other day of the week, both of those chef specials had meat. And so patients had to basically like request a vegetarian option, which is how it is at most places, right? That's the norm that meat is the default. And so for the study, they made both of the chef specials plant-based. And then if patients didn't want either of those, then they could choose a meat-based option from that static menu of options. And um, so what we found is that over 50% of patients of eligible patients are opting for one of those plant-based chef specials. There's very high satisfaction ratings among people who choose them. And it was so successful that they permanently implemented it for lunches and dinners across all 11 public hospitals in New York City. And so they've transitioned about 850,000 meals a year from meat-based to plant-based. And as a result, they're saving about half a million dollars per year. And they've cut the carbon footprint of their entire food service program by a third. So it's really incredible findings that it's just a win-win across the board.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

That is amazing. So you just kind of ran through some of the numbers here, some of the data, but can you specifically those are like hospital stats and stuff like that, uh, which kind of bores out specifically what you want. But do you is there other data that you've looked at uh in terms of providing healthier options in terms of how it translates to communities, healthier communities?

SPEAKER_02 14:57

That's that's a next stage of work that we're really excited about. So, you know, the average length of stay in a New York City hospital is like three to four days. Um, and patients aren't necessarily choosing the plant-based option at every single meal. Again, they have that freedom of choice, so it's just when it sounds good to them. So it wasn't really long enough for us to measure any health outcomes. And then also New York City does, they give patients like menu uh cards at discharge. So, like if you enjoyed your food, here's a recipe so you can take it and make it at home with your family. And they have a really incredible lifestyle medicine program that works outpatient with patients with, you know, diabetes, heart disease, et cetera, to help them learn cooking and shopping and like how to really implement a healthy lifestyle. But it's such a it's a big lift, and that's really a whole other set of interventions. So long-term, you know, we would love to make sure that the institutional dining changes are spilling over into the choices that people are making at home, but it does require some additional, you know, education and marketing. And we're still kind of focused on that initial intervention of getting these institutions to make sure the food they are serving within their cafeterias or patient menus is plant-based by default, but that's kind of that'll be phase two, I think, is that that spillover effect.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

That that sounds really amazing in terms of what they're doing, these extra resources that they're providing for patients like that. I didn't know about the giving them the menu, the uh recipes and things like that and the outpatient work and stuff like that. Do you know if so that's New York City specifically? Do you know if there's other cities or states, I guess, where where they where they're working on stuff like that?

SPEAKER_02 16:34

Yeah, I mean, lifestyle medicine thankfully is a really growing trend. We see a lot of interest in it among healthcare professionals. There's the American College of Lifestyle Medicine, the ACLM, which provides a lot of resources, both for individuals and for healthcare providers and institutions, about how to educate patients about lifestyle medicine as a long-term intervention, as a way to, you know, stop these problems before they begin or to keep them from getting worse, you know, without medication or surgery, but just through these changes in lifestyle.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

So, one good thing about the hospital example is that it's an existing system that you can just use that structure and then retool some of the factory settings, I guess, to promote a more plant-based, healthier option. But um, in terms of retooling those resources uh to more toward the plant-based side of things, we know it's gonna help the community, it's gonna be healthier. Uh, but uh on the sustainability side of things, what are some other benefits there when it comes to retooling at a system-based level?

SPEAKER_02 17:35

There's huge benefits for institutions to help meet their carbon reduction goals. So the carbon footprint of plant-based foods is on average less than half that of animal-based meals. And so we've seen that, you know, an institution of this size is serving so many meals that even there is one um corporate cafeteria that we worked with that in just a month, by serving more plant-based options and using these strategies to make them more appealing, um, they saved as much carbon as driving more than the circumference of the earth. And so, yeah, um, so these little changes really do add up, especially at that institutional scale. Um, and we also really like to translate the carbon savings into fund stats like that, where it's comprehensible for people because you know, pounds or tons of CO2 doesn't really mean anything to most people. But when you think about it in terms of like Olympic swimming pools full of water or like a month's worth of showers, or you know, driving the earth, and that that does resonate with people.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Do you do you actually find a lot of people that is something that they consider uh in terms of the options that they that they choose? They they if they know that this option is gonna help in terms of uh climate change or something like that, or use less energy or water or or whatever it is, that they are actually more inclined to that's one of the driving factors, I guess, from the psychological aspect. Or is that not something that you really got into yet?

SPEAKER_02 18:54

There's a lot of mixed research on that. So actually, what we do in terms of messaging is that at the point of sale where people are choosing their food, really just focusing on the flavors, you know, like hearty, juicy, sizzling, like these, these really like experientially focused words. And then after the fact, using these stats to make people feel good about our collective choices. So, you know, kind of, I mean, it can be an email that gets sent out or like an infographic kind of in the hallway, but you know, thanks to you know, the more diverse proteins that we've chosen in the past month, we've saved as much water as X or Y. That's the approach that we take. Because again, there is some research showing that if you label options as sustainable, then people view that as a sacrifice. In terms of carbon labeling, there has been some success with like stoplight labeling. So like red, yellow, green for you know, least to most sustainable. But then that also can feel more kind of judgmental or pushy. And so some people react badly to that. There's also mixed studies. There were just a couple of new studies that came out last month, one showing that environmental messaging on menus, one this was like people um ordering from third-party apps, like in an office environment where you can order catering, basically, that having messaging around sustainability and like, oh, if you just make this one choice today, you'll be saving this much carbon. That did affect people's choices. But then another study found that that actually backfired and people are less likely. So yeah, I think it's it's really context dependent on the diner, you know, the audience, and then the way that the messaging is formulated. So yeah, we we typically kind of play it safe by keeping the menu messaging focused on taste and flavor, and then having kind of in the background some of those higher levels, like feel good about the choices you're making stats.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Yeah, and I suppose that's very subjective too, and can get even at times political given the way things are going. Uh, and misinformation too, as you as you mentioned, I'm sure that could probably factor in. Another big issue for people in making these choices is always cost. I'm curious about what have you seen so far in terms of some of the institutions where you've implemented this and how cost effective it is, both in terms of the for the client, for the customer, for the patient or whatever, and then also for the the institutions who are providing the food.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

Yeah, so these interventions are usually cost savings, especially at an institutional level if they're working with a food service management company or self-operating their cafeteria, um, especially whole food plant-based proteins like beans, lentils, tofu, potatoes, you know, these are the most inexpensive ingredients and sources of protein. And so we do see usually there's fairly significant cost savings. Um, you know, if they're serving more of the like meat alternatives, those can be more expensive. But typically most of the dishes that they're adding are drawing on those whole food plant based proteins. So it is usually really cost savings. And, you know, the same thing for individuals. There have been studies showing, I think it was like a family. Four saves on average $700 a year by going vegetarian. Again, because these staples are so cheap. The one area where we don't really see the cost savings is like catering, because the if if it's just a meal or two and not a shift in all of the products they're ordering, then like the restaurant or the caterer is not gonna see cost savings. And actually, it could be more work for them. There are some labor costs involved, you know, especially if you're serving more vegetables. It's time peeling and chopping. And, you know, if they have to learn new recipes, new preparation techniques, that takes time. Um, so with catering, usually it there's not the cost savings, but with the full food service operations, they're saving, you know, New York City's saving half a million dollars every year.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Stand on the topic of cost for a minute. There is a perception, I'm sure you've heard it, that plant-based, vegetarian, vegan diets can be more expensive than your typical Western diets, especially now that there's uh you see more plant-based burgers and things like that, which which we know can be a little pricier. There's a concern that some people who are on the lower economic side of things or marginalized groups, this might actually push them away from trying it uh at all. Can you speak to that issue and whether greener by default addresses that and what they're doing?

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Yeah, and it's ironic because for most of modern history, meat has been the luxury product. You know, meat was the food that only the rich could afford, and the peasant foods were the plant-based foods. Again, it's potatoes, it's bread, it's lentils, it's beans, it's tofu. So that's actually one of the issues that we ran into is that culturally, especially if we're working in like, you know, a tech cafeteria or catering for the C-suite, that there's this perception that meat is really the finer food. And if they're serving vegetables, it's sort of beneath this level of dining. And, you know, I talk to a lot of people when I was giving presentations to high schools and colleges, I would talk to students who would say, you know, my parents moved to the United States and they take it as really a mark of pride that they can afford to eat meat every day now. It's this really marker of class that you have made it and you can actually be eating meat because it historically has been the luxury food. And it's, you know, it's really only the system of factory farming and subsidies that has turned that on its head and made meat and dairy more affordable than fruits and vegetables. But um again, you know, I mean, dried beans in bulk, there's like they're so, so cheap. I mean, it's it's just, you know, it's like pennies in terms of protein content. So yeah, I it's it's ironic. And I do think that it's a problem too, that there is this perception of plant-based foods as kind of these newer, sort of more bougie, more western items when really all of these traditional foods from around the world are plant-based and are very affordable and are really healthy. There was an interesting study I just heard about, I think it was the World Wildlife Fund in the UK, where they found that people in the UK view avocado toast as plant-based, but they don't think of beans on toast as plant-based. And so we think of like these newfangled, kind of less familiar things as plant-based, but like really so many of these very accessible, affordable staples are also plant-based.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

That's really interesting. Yeah, it's just a staple that they that they have every day. Before I wrap things up, I did, I was curious. So you talk about lobbyists, and that's a big thing. For me specifically, I guess my my background is in journalism. So when I do hear about dark money moving around in the background to promote certain campaigns or to push uh information or misinformation, and then you have lobbyists too, specifically, that does seem to be a conversation that the public doesn't seem to really be too aware of some of these things, some of the strings behind. The first thing that I want to do instinctually is to express that to the public. I guess, quote unquote, educate them about what's happening and less nudge them. And I'm curious in what you've seen, and if you put back on your psychology hat for a minute, if it's more effective to convince somebody or to get somebody to to move in a certain direction to eat healthier, to choose more greens, to come out and try to explain everything and say, look, this is what's happening, and this is actually what the data shows, versus doing something like changing the menus in in slight ways or just nudging, I guess, in a way. I don't know. I know there is some data. Uh you're probably well, well, well aware of the nudging theory and everything like that, but I'm curious if if there's ever been anything you've seen that kind of puts the two together to see which one is more effective.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

It's an interesting question. I don't know of any studies that have compared head to head like that, but I think both are very necessary. Um, I think in terms of changing people's individual behaviors, defaults and nudges are more effective because again, I mean, it's it's been true for a long time, but I think it is especially true now that people are not swayed by facts. You know, even if logically we believe them, which nowadays people don't even trust facts. I mean, they're so skeptical of everyone who used to be kind of a trusted source of information. Um but again, you know, I can know something logically. And then when I'm hungry and when I'm staring that candy bar, you know, in the face, or, you know, the burger, the juicy burger right in front of me, then it's we're we're not really thinking about facts and figures again. It's that more kind of visceral immediate motivation. Um so, you know, that's that's why we're focused on defaults and nudges and just making those healthier, more sustainable choices the easy choice in the moment when people are actually making that decision. But I do think that for a longer-term cultural change, it is also really important that we do address this misinformation head on, that we, you know, help people understand. I mean, I would love there's so many groups that are like, how do we make fiber sexy? You know, we've known for such a long time that people are really deficient in fiber and it has all causes all of these health problems. But for some reason, you know, protein is manly and like fiber is just what old people need to go to the bathroom. It's like it's got some got some marketing issues with it. So, you know, there's some great groups out there that are working on the marketing side of things and the messaging side of things. And I think we really do need the two working in tandem to create that long-term cultural change.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Yeah, both tools in the toolbox, I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

To kind of wrap everything up, I always like to end with like a practical type question for listeners at home. So I guess in in this case, if you imagine somebody who might not be in a place where plant-based options are easily accessible, what would you be your advice for them when they're trying to actually lean more into the greens, into the healthier options, into the plant-based options? Uh, and what can they do if they want to make changes in their community, at their work, at their school?

SPEAKER_02 28:58

Yeah, I mean, I think first of all, not letting perfect be the enemy of the good. I would see this a lot when I was giving presentations that people would say, you know, I can't afford to buy organic and I don't have access to local and I don't know which plant base to buy. It it's it's really overwhelming to try to address everything all at once. So I think just picking one area, one type of food that you do have access to, you know you like, or something you can cook, you know, like putting beans and chili instead of beef, um, or buying, you know, soy milk instead of dairy milk or oat milk instead of dairy milk, whatever feels doable, starting with those really small steps and then working your way up from there. Um, there's a lot of studies that show that people who go plant-based overnight are less likely to stick with it than people who do it gradually because it can just be very overwhelming. And, you know, especially if people don't know what foods are best or don't know how to cook them, then it's easy to default to like salads or pasta, um, which I mean, salads, you're not getting enough calories, pasta, you're not getting enough nutrients. And so taking time to integrate foods that are accessible slowly so that you know you feel good, you have a, you know, you you know the best ways to make it work for your lifestyle. I think that's best on a personal level. And then in terms of a community level, I mean, I think like just serving it as an example is really powerful. Showing that you're eating more plant-based foods, posting what you're eating on social media, making it look really delicious, um, showing that you're eating more of these and you're happy and you're healthy and you have energy is always great. One thing that I recommend, especially nowadays with at least in the US, egg prices and avian flu is making plant-based desserts for potlucks and things like that. You don't have to be vegan to make vegan brownies. Um, there's so many recipes online. And that way they're also more inclusive for people who have egg allergies or who are vegan or who are keeping kosher, you know, whatever it might be. Remembering that again, flexitarianism is great for all of us. It doesn't have to be this like 100% this way or that identity choice. And then the final thing that I'll say is if folks are interested in bringing these strategies to their institutions, if they're part of a you know hospital or workplace that has a cafeteria or catering, if you go to a conference, we see it so often that even sustainability conferences or health-focus conferences are serving food that is not sustainable or healthy. We would love to get in touch. You can go to our website, which is www.greenerbydefault.org, or contact us at infoggreenerbydefault.org. We have some resources that we can share, and then we can potentially also engage directly to help bring these strategies to your institution or event.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

And we'll make sure to link those sources in the show notes for everybody if they're interested in checking them out. Katie, thank you so much for joining the Plant Based Canada podcast. It's been a real pleasure, and I do think that we're kind of on that track. It might take a little while, but just in my lifetime, I have seen nothing on the menu that was vegetarian. To things that are clearly marked as vegetarian and even vegan in some places. So I guess I hope.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Yes, yeah, I think luckily we're headed in the right direction.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

This podcast featured royalty-free music from binsound.com. A very special thanks to our guests for speaking with us and sharing their insights. And of course, thank you for listening. The Plant Based Canada Podcast is an initiative of the group Plant Based Canada, which aims to educate the public and health professionals on the evidence-based benefits of plant-based whole food nutrition for individual and planetary health. To learn more about the show, visit our website www.plantbasedcanada.org, and stay up to date by following us on Instagram and Facebook at Plantbased Canada.org and our Plant Based Canada YouTube channel. Also, don't forget to subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you download your podcasts.