Today on The Clean Body Podcast, host Lauren Kelly talks to the co-founder of Layer Origin about new HMO (human milk oligosaccharide) supplements hitting the marketing – and explores how the singular carbohydrate may be able to improve gut health and gastrointestinal dysfunctions like IBS (irritable bowel syndrome), once and for all.
For 25% off Layer Origin Products, use the code CLEANBODY25 when checking out at www.layerorigin.com.
During the interview, you'll learn:
About Layer Origin:
Layer Origin Nutrition was born in a food science lab on the Cornell University campus in Ithaca, NY. That's where a postdoctoral fellow and PhD candidate came together with an idea: create truly unique nutrition products backed by rigorous research & development that can help people improve their health.
For more on Layer Origin:
For more on Lauren Kelly & The Clean Body Podcast:
They administered, uh HMO's to adults who had presented with symptoms, who said they had IBS, basically irritable bowel syndrome. And they gave them, I think it was 10 grams, um, over the course of four weeks. And they overwhelmingly reported, you know, a drastic reduction in every single symptom category. Welcome to the clean body podcast. I'm Lauren Kelly, a certified nutrition therapist, and soon to be specialized holistic cancer coach with a certification in cancer biology from UC Berkeley. I am so grateful that you're here. This podcast introduces you to the souls and brains behind some of the cleanest food beverage and lifestyle products on the market, because what you put on in and around your body matters from cookies, bread, and mushroom superfoods to adaptogenic lozenges, clean medicines, organic mattresses, and fluoride-free toothpaste. We'll explore how the brands came to be how scientific studies drove decisions about ingredients and materials. And most importantly, how the products support all the physical and mental microscopic miracles that occur in your body every minute of every day. Thank you for being here. Let's get this started. Hey guys, welcome back to the clean body podcast. I'm your host, Lauren Kelly. If you're looking to improve your gut health, or you have irregular unfavorable, bowel movements, bloating, inflammation, gas, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Then this episode is for you. My friends, I today I'm talking to layer origin, the only company in the United States that has a complete line of pure H M O products that is human milk oligosaccharide products. Now, before you freak out the products, don't actually contain human milk, but you'll have to wait to hear the interview to learn what they do contain. I'll admit I have been using the product for over a week and TMI, but my poops have been great. I won't gross you out with the details, but everything is moving smoothly. Anyways, during this episode, we of course talk about gut health because that is the theme for this month for all of the episodes. But we also dive into the science of HMO's and how they benefit immune health performance, gastrointestinal function, and compare to the other pre and probiotics on the market. It's truly fascinating stuff. And it's backed by mega people in the health industry, including Ben Greenfield of the Ben Greenfield podcast, Dr. Rhonda Patrick, who is a cell biologist, and co-founder of found my fitness and Joel green, who is the author of the immunity code. There are lots of other doctors registered dieticians and experts within the industry who are backing HMO's. And you can see that on layer origins [email protected] But this episode we'll introduce you to what HMO's are, why they are beneficial for your body. And you can decide if trying them feels right for you and your health journey. Joining me for this episode is Bo Berman. He is another co-founder and the director of performance marketing for layer origin nutrition. He'll give you a whole overview of his background. So let's just get this started. If you like this episode, please rate review, subscribe, share with a friend. All listeners of the clean body podcast are being given 25% off any [email protected] So if you listened to this and you want to try the product, go to layer origin.com at checkout use clean body 25, and you'll get that 25% off. Cool. Let's jump into it Bo. Welcome to the clean body podcast. How are you today? Hey, I'm great. Thanks for having me really happy to be here. Yeah, I am pretty stoked about talking about layer origin and everything you have going on over there. It's a little complicated and super interesting, um, and very progressive. So I think we're going to try really hard to break this down for the average listener, because I was even listening to podcasts about it and I was like, whoa. This is yeah, for sure. Yeah. It can take some time to wrap your head around it, but I think, you know, the reward is that it's quite fascinating once you grasp it. And, uh, it's definitely sort of a cutting edge area of the, of the field of gut health. And, uh, yeah, so I think there's a reward in there if, if, if people are patient. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, gut health, I talk about probably every single episode and it's what I am most passionate about. So this is just taking the education and gut health one step further, which is really exciting. But before we get into layer origin, I would love for you to just explain your experience with health and wellness and how you have found yourself where you are today. Absolutely. I have a bit of an atypical entry into the field, uh, in that I was originally a, uh, on air television news reporter and anchor for 11 years. Um, you know, trained from college as a broadcast journalism major in Pennsylvania at Penn state university. Um, I did minor in kinesiology, um, but, uh, that was kind of the extent of my actual, um, background. And there were many times where I considered, um, getting, you know, uh, becoming like an NASM certified trainer, but have not done that because I always enjoyed, you know, uh, running on a treadmill and, you know, strength training and things of that nature. Um, and as I get older, I realize how important flexibility is and, and, you know, mobile hits and things of things like that. But, um, yeah, I was a journalist, um, and then circa 2019, I, um, pivoted out of that into media relations, public relations marketing, and took a job with a tech startup in Pittsburgh that was marketing a, or trying to market a really exciting product that, um, leverage, uh, artificial intelligence and machine learning and augmented reality. And it basically enabled kids to make cartoons on YouTube, which I actually thought was really cool. Um, so I helped them gain a lot of publicity and, you know, did a lot of email marketing and kind of leverage my, uh, name and face in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, where was, was my latest, uh, I did my latest stop as a TV reporter and anchor. Um, and then, um, then I, I moved to New York with my wife and she was starting as a professor at Cornell university. And so, um, through chance and circumstance, is that how you say that? Um, I, uh, met the, um, the original founders of layer origin nutrition who were two food scientists and they were in search actually of somebody who would, um, take over all aspects of marketing communications, public relations, kind of being the face of the company, um, as their experience lied, purely in the science aspect of it and running the business, but not really anything else. So it was a perfect fit. And, um, I had an innate interest in health and nutrition and I'm an avid supplement taker. Uh, you know, if someone who is very interested in, you know, what the best supplements to take are, which ones are, which ones you need, which ones you don't need, um, which were the best brands. And so I, you know, it was a really good fit in that sense. And, uh, so that's, that's when I joined the team in, um, early 2020. And, um, really that's when we first started selling products online, there had been a couple years of, of ramp up before I joined the company, uh, of research and development, obtaining patents, um, and trademarks and things of that nature, setting up a business, you know, but, uh, and then I joined the company, started selling products online. That's been some pretty solid growth since then. So many good things there. Yeah. Scientists want to stay in the lab and you can just handle everything else. All right. So let's dig into a little bit, what you just touched on in the terms of you are an avid supplement taker, um, as a holistic nutritionist. Um, and I know in some of the podcasts I spoke about, you know, your founders also speak to this, but the best way to get vitamins and nutrients and everything that your body needs is through whole food sources because of the sequence of events that transpire in your body and the way that your body absorbs, you know, synthetic versus natural vitamins and nutrients. So talk to me a little bit about that, because I'm always hesitant to suggest someone take a supplement unless they have, you know, a malabsorption problem or they're extremely deficient and they can't get it through their diet. Talk to me about your journey with supplements and why you support layer origin. What makes them so special that you are not only an advocate, but you work for them to blow up their business more so. Yeah. Fantastic question. Um, yeah, and I wouldn't have taken this role with layer or Jane and, and they, you know, have treated me, you know, the company has treated me incredibly well and, and Al essentially I'm a become a co-founder of the company and director of marketing. And so I wouldn't have taken this though, if it was something that I didn't personally believe in and, and, you know, that's easy for someone to say, but I actually have a pretty high bar for, uh, BS because I, I was an investigative news reporter. So I was sniffing out scams and questioning people. And I'm that guy who was chasing people down the street with a microphone and, you know, and I had the research to back things up that I was chasing them about and proof that they had wrong people and, you know, the attorney General's office was investigating them. So anyway, the point being that I really hate, you know, fake things and things that are not authentic and that are just BS and, and just, um, a facade. So I would not have joined origin if that was the case, but that being said, um, yeah, so supplements, I mean, that's definitely part of our ethos is that we, we, you know, my partner really is actually intent on launching this sort of campaign that says, like, do not take supplements, you know, basically titling some blog, posts that and, and, and doing some things of that nature because, um, obviously we sell supplements, but yeah, the truth is that you do want to be getting, um, nutrients and, and different things from whole food sources, you know, for absorption reasons that is the best way to do it. And, you know, some people do not need supplements, you know? And so, and there's actually, you know, there's that great chart that came out a few years ago. That's kind of like the axis of, um, you know, which supplements basically do nothing for you or do not have actual any research behind them. And which ones kind of have the most research and combined with the most efficacy and, you know, things of that nature. So, you know, those things should always be looked at and researching and before you start taking anything, um, and again, you should definitely strive to be getting things through whole food sources. Um, now granted, I have a lot of friends who, you know, take something like athletic greens or, you know, the podcasts or Tim Ferris, you know, advertises for them. And even before that, you know, recommended that product. And, you know, he describes it as a nutritional insurance policy, meaning, you know, you're traveling and you're on the road and you can't, you know, uh, get your asparagus and broccoli that day and you can't get your soul. So for a Fein. So you're going to take athletic greens because it has a little bit of that in it. And, you know, and hopefully cover your bases until you can get back to your typical dinner table and have the foods that you can purchase at your farmer's market or whole foods or whatever. Um, and so, you know, I mean, I think I would probably subscribe to that as well, uh, for most supplements, which is that, you know, try to get these things through whole foods. Don't take it if you don't need it, there's no need If you have enough bioteine already, and your nails are inherit or growing fine. And, you know, um, for example, um, and you know, with our product, which of course we'll delve into HMO, it's a little bit different because it's something that you, you know, you're actually not going to, no, one's going to, at this point, you know, as an adult have, um, endemic or like, you know, innate HMO in their system. And so you, you would literally have to supplement it. You couldn't just, just magically, you know, have it, or get it through a whole food source. Well, cause that would be breast milk actually, which we'll get into. Um, and so, you know, adults, aren't, aren't going to have that, certainly not at scale. And, um, you know, so you would, you would have to supplement with it if, if you wanted the benefits of it. Okay, great. So that was a great transition into HMO. So what is HTML, let's just define that outright to begin? Absolutely. So HMO is, uh, for us, you know, the reason we're talking about it is it is the flagship ingredient of our company. We sell multiple nutritional supplements, but HMO is definitely the flagship, uh, ingredient. So what is it? Um, well, it stands for, it's an acronym that stands for human milk oligosaccharide um, and you know, the first time I'd ever heard it, because I was actually a little surprised when I joined the company, I hadn't heard much about HMO. And in fact, you know, when I, when I first learned about it, I, I, H I had heard of was like health, health management organization. It's like a insurance policy that you can, you can get. I remembered that from growing up in the nineties and you had your PPO, your HMO, your HSA, whatever. And so I hadn't really heard the acronym. And, um, and I was surprised because I really keep up with a lot of supplement and stuff, you know, for better or worse, but I've just, you know, very fascinated by it. And, you know, even before joining layer, origin, nutrition, and in on the reason I hadn't heard of it is because it's very new in terms of, you know, making it into the mainstream. And it's still pretty young in its maturity cycle, you know, as, as a supplement, as a household name, which we hope and think that it will grow, but that being said, it stands for human milk oligosaccharide. And so HMO or human milk oligosaccharide is a component found naturally in all human breast milk. And so it was basically identified by scientists and late 18 hundreds. And we, I could probably talk about this for hours, but I'll try to make it quick, uh, identified by scientists in the late 18 hundreds, doing research on why babies, uh, that were breastfed were having higher rates of survival, you know, in the infant mortality rate was, was lower, um, uh, among those, uh, babies. And, you know, one of the things they looked at was okay, you know, the big difference here is that the babies who were living, you know, living and making out of the women by better are, uh, breastfed. Um, and so they started breaking down then, okay. What is it about the breast milk that is helping them so much? Is it it the lactose, is it the lip aids? Is it the fat? Is it, you know, what, what is it is the protein that's in the breast milk? And basically what they ultimately uncovered was before discovered or uncovered, uh, component of, of human milk, uh, that they, at that point, I believe they called it a GYN, a lactose, uh, or something to that. Yeah, it was, it was around, let's see, that was like 1886. We're talking about, I have some notes in front of me just to remember the exact dates, but, um, this was a pediatric observation that this intestinal bacteria was actually different in breastfed, infants than bottle fed infants. Okay. So the bacteria is actually different. So what is, what is, what is causing this? So the 1920s, right, right. As the red, as the great depression was, it was about to happen here. Uh, in 19 26, 19 29, there, they called it diffidence factor, um, in human milk, that was this factor, this X factor that was, uh, making human milk so special, helping nurture infants, you know, build their gut lining, give them that immunity that the mother can give to the infant to an infant. And, um, so this was basically this, uh, they also called it GYN, lactose this additional carbohydrate element in milk. So then they started, you know, diving in deeper as scientists do, and, you know, 1954 there they're, you know, looking into this bifidus factor, this a lactose exploring the science of HMO's. And eventually they're able to isolate and characterize and identify over a hundred close to 200 different varieties. This is now from 1950 to year 2000. Um, so there's different types of HMO even, you know, within the category of, okay, HMO's in breast milk, but there's different types of HMO, different, like very hyper-specific strain strains of it, for lack of a better word. Um, and so basically they have very scientific been given, you know, our products only have two of those 200. So one of them for example, is called two Fuko. So lactose one is called lacto and the Neo Tetros, uh, or L M N T for short to fucose, lactose is two dash FL two FL. Um, but there's 200 of them. And so scientists continue to explore this. Um, basically, you know, around 2010 though, um, they're looking at, you know, th th people, you know, corporations are realizing, wait a minute. Um, these are extremely powerful. Unfortunately, the only place we can get them is for human breast milk. Um, so I don't think we're going to be able to source that at scale and, uh, deliver that to babies all over the world, because they were thinking about what about, you know, mothers who can't breastfeed or, you know, for whatever reason or don't want to, or what have you. And these health benefits were too good to pass up, but how do you distribute this? And of course, there's milk banks and things like that, but that's not at scale and not worldwide. So they started looking at ways that could they synthesize this or reproduce it somehow some way. And the answer was yes, fortunately. And so there's a multiple ways that's been done. One of the ways is through yeast, you can take, you know, special type of yeast. You confirm it in a very precise way that you can only imagine how many iterations it took to figure this out. And, um, so you take that yeast, you fermented, you then purify it a very specific, excuse me, a specific way. And what you're left with is something that is buyer considered bio identical to the HMO that you would find in human milk. And by bio identical, it's like on the molecular level, put it under a microscope and it looks the same, you know, the molecule, is it the same? Not literally because it doesn't have any human milk in it, but it looks the same under the microscope has the same properties and in turn would deliver the same benefits. So this was a gigantic breakthrough. Uh, we're talking millions, possibly eventually billions of dollars to be made by major formula companies for baby formula. Because if you can take the benefits of real human milk, put them in formula, that's, that's a big deal. Of course, you know, they had already tried to mimic it, but it just wasn't the same thing. And so, I mean, this is an experiment for your listeners, you know, just a fun thing to do, at least to me, it is next time you're in the grocery store, go down the baby formula aisle just for fun. Right. And, uh, even if you don't have kids and look at the formula bottles and you'll see the major brands you may have seen before, like Similac and Enfamil and on the label, you'll see HMO, you'll see that acronym and almost every store in America now, even in, you know, uh, drug stores, Walgreens, Rite aid, whatever, um, because it was around 2017, they started putting this bio-identical HMO into baby formula. And so some, you know, biohackers and health nuts out there. What have you, nutrition, you know, people in nutrition files started hearing about this in research papers, which were increasingly common from 2010 to 2020, um, looking at how, you know, real HMO in breast milk helps infants, but also how these, um, the, the bio-identical HMO's, uh, helped infants. And then eventually there were tests done on how the trials and studies on how they help, could help adults. But, um, so people actually started taking, um, baby formula and drinking it, you know, and actually like chugging it or mixing it in a protein shake with their whey protein or whatever, to get the benefits of immunity, um, the way it can modulate, you know, weight management, that sort of thing, you know, your gut bacteria and, um, and also prevent, you know, help with lactose intolerance, help with symptoms, IBS, things like that. And also visibly just alter your gut bacteria, which is the key, the key development from this. So people were doing that, but it was, you know, kind of expensive. It was kind of like you're buying baby formula. It's weird. It might not taste good. Has a lot of fillers in it, not really meant for adults. So a lot of, you know, cons to this practice. And so that's kind of where the inception of our company came in, where, um, my partner, Jason, who is one of our scientists, um, you know, a former nutrition professor from university of Nebraska, a PhD in food science also worked in the private sector before, uh, for a company that in the Midwest, a major company that does the, uh, powdered egg whites that end up in, um, uh, protein bars, like RX bar and things like that. And so he, he is re reading these papers. I think he was actually assigned a project during his post-doctoral fellowship and starts reading about and says, wait a minute, why aren't we giving this to adults? If this is so beneficial to infants, you know, and they were starting to pop up these research studies showing that could help adults. So, you know, one thing led to another. And so basically that's where our company comes in. And so we make, uh, supplements that contain bio-identical HMO, uh, that are specifically designed, tailored and dosed for adults. And so it just comes in a powder form. It's like a white powder that's tasteless and comes with these immense benefits. And we also have an encapsuled form and we've just introduced, you know, seven new versions of it basically. So we have a whole product aligned and it's been successful so far. You know, the biggest challenge is really word of mouth. And, you know, like you said, trying to explain what it is, cause it just took me quite a mouthful there to do that. But, uh, you know, so it's a little, it's a little shocking to people, a little complex and it's confusing because the title is human milk oligosaccharide, but our products do not contain any human milk. That was what I was just going to say, like, let us, let's just put out one sentence here and clarify it. Layer origin supplements contain no human milk. It is a component of human milk that is beneficial for babies, especially their gut lining that you're essentially packaging, you're creating and packaging and providing to humans. So, and adults. So anyone listening that's like, I just can't get a white powder and it's breast milk just powdered. It is not breast milk. It is just a component of breast milk that we found to be beneficial to the gut lining. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly correct. You know, and that molecular structure is what we're taking and, and, you know, providing, um, and yeah, so I mean, you know, basically another which is human identical milk oligosaccharides. So, you know, you don't need to memorize that, but, uh, you know, demo is human milk oligosaccharide and then you have H H I, which are human, identical milk oligosaccharide, uh, produced through a um, you know, you're basically getting all of the benefits without human milk, which, I mean, in theory, there's nothing wrong with that, but obviously that would, uh, have like a yuck factor for some people. So. Yeah, I think most people probably are a little turned off by thinking about that, even though, you know, it's very, it's nature, you know, this isn't, there's a lot grosser things that you are eating every day in your pre-packaged foods, then human milk, but this is not what we're talking about. I want to get a little bit more granular and what exactly are oligosaccharides. Yeah. So, um, you know, there's, uh, a number of different oligosaccharides. So when you talk about prebiotics there's, uh, GOs F O S X O S inulin user different, um, types of prebiotic fibers and, um, you know, an oligosaccharide itself is like a biochemistry term. And again, I, you know, I did preface this interview by saying I'm not the scientist of the company, but obviously I've been briefed and, you know, prepped as much as possible by our scientists with, you know, all as much knowledge as, as possible, but it is a carbohydrate, it's a call carbohydrate, um, whose, uh, molecules are composed of relatively small monosaccharide units. And so that doesn't really help many people understand what it is, but like I said, there's a number of different types of oligosaccharides, which again, it's like the plural it's like a monosaccharide oligosaccharide is, is, is a number of those together. And so GOs is galacto oligosaccharide, uh, FOS is fructo oligosaccharides. So you can find oligosaccharides in like plants and fruits and things like that. Um, and so that, you know, that's kind of where you get like the fruit dough, uh, prefix. And so, you know, ours, the type that we promote and endorse is the HMO, which is the human milk oligosaccharide, uh, which is basically a complex sugar molecule. So HMO is basically a sugar. It is a sugar, uh, that is in breast milk basically is a simple way to put it. So how is it being created at layer origin? Yeah. So it starts with, we have these ferries and there's a wizard now. Um, it's, it's, it is like, I mean, it's, it's a little complex. Um, so, you know, we have a, we don't, so we do, let's see, how do I want to phrase this? We have a factory here where we are producing our products. We are battling them, labeling them, sealing them. Um, everything's, third-party tested. So basically the way that works is, uh, before we have a batch of products, let's say we're running 2000 bottles off of our production line. We have to take a certain amount of those and send them to a lab where they test them, uh, for impurities, make sure they're safe, et cetera, and then give us the, okay. You know, give us the green light. So everything is third party lab tested now in terms of how, yeah, it's a great question, you know, so, all right. So it's not from human milk. We are calling it HMO. How do you make it right? That's the bottom line question? And the answer is like I was alluding to earlier, there's a few different ways. So some companies are doing where or doing a method where you take the form of yeast, you know, that they're basically producing in a lab. And then, like I said, fermenting that and purifying it. I mean that, that's the level of detail I can get into from the non-science side. Now, for us, it's different though. We're actually taking a bovine milk. So just like cows milk. Um, and basically when they, you know, a lot of your listeners are probably obviously familiar whey protein. So when you're, when you have way there's, it's, you know, you've probably heard of like whey protein isolate. Um, basically there's like a, a factor left behind from that when you're creating that, that we would then take and ferment and then purify. And while, while, uh, you have, you know, something that is bio identical, you have these human identical milk oligosaccharides. Now it's like a little bit more complicated than that, I've dumbed it down to like three steps. You know, these took like half a century to, to achieve, you know, so, um, now our scientists to be a hundred percent clear, you know, we don't want to take credit where credit is not due. We did not, you know, invent HMO's. We did not invent this process. We did not come up with it. We have invented some other things that we have patents for, but not this particular process. Um, and so we have a supplier where we're getting our HMO powder from, but you know, our food scientists who have dedicated their lives to food science, um, and consulted with nutritionists are, you know, deciding on the formulations, you know, which HMO's do we want, how much of each one and what is the proper dosage? Um, so, you know, hopefully that answers the question. Yeah. Two questions that popped up in my brain while you were explaining that is first, since it is milk, essentially from cows. Is there any lactose problem for people who are lactose intolerant and then second, um, is the quality of the milk that you're getting? Is that taken into account the quality of the cows, if they're grass fed they're organic, what have you, is that taken into account when sourcing your HMO powder? Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I don't know, actually, that's, that's, that's, uh, that's one of the few questions that stumped me in Um, I don't know about that. I don't know if, you know, we're looking at grass fed or like RBST free and things like that. I would hope we are. Um, however, what I will say is it becomes a little bit of a moot point, um, irrelevant because it is being like the end product is nothing like cow's milk basically. And I say that because by the time you ferment it, and by the time the level of purification that this goes through is just ridiculous. I mean, how, you know, how, you know, filtered, I mean, it would be like taking, I don't even know how to describe maybe like taking water and filtering it 10 different times, you know, through 10 Brita filters and a pure filter and this and that. And then also doing reverse osmosis on it. I mean, it, by the time you're done with it and then evaporating it, you know, and it's like, okay, is that really the water you started with? Well kind of, but not really. I mean, molecularly sure. But like it's now evaporated into the air or something. So what I mean by that is basically like you, you know, it, um, basically there's answers go hand in hand because the question is, is, you know, can you take this if you're lactose intolerant? Like, is there a lactose still present in it, given that it's coming from cows milk, number one and then also okay. But what's the quality of that cow's milk. And the answer to both of those is actually, so number one is that yes, you can take it. If you're lactose intolerant, we still advise the people check with a physician of their choice. Um, you know, whether it's a traditional medicine doctor, um, or a, you know, if they have an integrative or functional or holistic or natural pathic physician, but check with somebody who you trust about whether, you know, they think it's safe with your diet and your background and your medical history as, as most nutritional products advise you do. Um, that said, you know, you shouldn't take it if you're pregnant, um, uh, or nursing. But, um, other than that, you know, it's generally, you know, it has grass status in the U S it's generally recognized as safe HMO, uh, and H IMO, which is the human identical milk oligosaccharide. And so this is a question we get a lot, we have it on the FAQ of our website, you know, can you take this product if you're lactose intolerant, or if you have a milk allergy, the true answer is yes, but we still tell people to be careful, you know, check with a doctor. And the reason the answer is yes, is because there's only trace, trace, trace amounts of lactose left in this product. I mean, almost barely registrable if you test for it. Um, so it's such a negligible amount that by that point, that kind of answers both parts of the question in the sense that yes, you can take it if you're lactose intolerant, because there's basically no lactose in it. We have to say there is because we don't want to lie, you know, 0.0, 0, 0 1, you know, whatever. Um, and then to, you know, how high quality are these cows. It kind of doesn't matter in the end product, because this has been filtered so much in PR you know, um, purified so much that it's, it's not like you're consuming, you know, a 12 ounce glass of milk where, you know, those ingredients in there. Okay. It's coming from a, you know, factory farmed cow who, you know, was not grass fed and has RBST and hormones injected. And do it, I mean, if we're drinking a 12 ounce glass of milk every day. Yeah. That could be a major problem, you know, over the course of your life, if you're having this infant testimony, small amount of like trace lactose in this powder, it's, it's not really going to be a concern that said, I should, I should probably find out the answer to your actual question. Yeah. The, uh, the origin story of our, of our cows. But, um, but yeah, I don't know if I explained that correctly, but, you know, in a digestible way or a way that, you know, people would put credence into, but, you know, that is our true belief that, you know, by the, by the end result of this it's, it's, it's, you know, you're kind of taking that as like the, the vehicle to get the HMO and then to create that, but you're not left with much of that actual like milk. Product. No, I mean, it makes sense. You're extracting one part of the cows milk to create your product. And then in terms of the lactose intolerance, I was assuming that it was fine because of fermentation because fermentation breaks down those proteins that are often hard on people's digestive systems. It's the same thing with ancient made sourdough bread. You know, people who have a glucose intolerance or glucose even, um, allergy can often eat sourdough because it goes through a fermentation process, which breaks down that glucose already for you. So your body doesn't have to go through the process of digesting it. And so through the fermentation process, I'm sure the same thing happens with the lactose in cows milk is that it's just broken down and it's already digested essentially by enzymes through fermentation. So it does not impact your body the same way. Yeah, that's correct. And you know, what's challenging about this is that people ask us that question and for good reason, you know, they're very wary of it because like, if you spent your life and you're lactose intolerant, or you have a milk allergy, you're very concerned, you obviously always check that. And you're like, okay, so this product clearly won't work for me. It's called a human milk oligosaccharide. But, uh, unfortunately for us, you know, it is difficult to explain, but you know, when people have to place a little, take a little bit of a leap of faith, because it feels so counterintuitive, like hearing the word milk, but, you know, ironically there's multiple people who, you know, real customers who reach out to us and say this actually like cured or alleviated my lactose intolerance issue or my milk allergy. So I mean, it, you know, and people who were taking the, even just baby formula were saying that the HMO is so powerful that even getting it from there, you know, before our products existed, um, we're seeing that type of benefit from it. So again, I mean, we don't, you know, make health claims like that. I mean, you know, we don't say that we say that HMO might not even work for everybody. I mean, I, I know my father tried some and said, I don't feel a difference. And I said, okay. But, um, you know, then again, we have a lot of customers who leave these glowing reviews that are, you know, honestly surprise us every day and make us feel really good about what we're doing. So, um, you know, but yeah, that's the irony of it is that a lot of people are really worried about the lactose intolerance factor, but the reality is that yes, they can safely take it. And number two, it actually could potentially reverse that, that, you know, according to many people who've taken the product. Yeah. Well, often an allergy or intolerance is a lack of a bacterial strain. So you have to have a diverse microbiome or gut in order for that bacteria to break down those proteins. And if you are lacking that diverse gut, you know, population, then you are going to struggle with sensitivities and intolerances and allergies. And so when you say this can reverse or cure, some people might be rolling their eyes, like, yeah. Okay. But truly if you are introducing your body safely to a bacterial strain that has those properties, that can absolutely happen. So just backing you up right there, but you said. I appreciate that. Yeah. You say you often get testimonies and I, I assume you you've used the product, I'm going to be testing it out and sharing my reviews of it. But I am curious for you to share either scientific studies and findings you as an organization have done with HMO's or even just your first hand experience with taking the supplement. Yeah, absolutely. So I can do both. Um, so I'll start with, as I kind of pull up some notes in front of me, just from the actual, uh, studies that have been done, I'll start with my anecdotal, you know, story, uh, experience of it taking myself. So, um, I was highly skeptical of it, even though I worked for the company. Um, you know, because I'm highly skeptical of pretty much everything in life. Um, you know, but with enough evidence in research, I totally jumped on board with things, uh, regardless of what it is and, you know, but I have a pretty high like, you know, bar to pass, so yeah, I wanted to try it and, uh, and I'm taking it now, actually I've been cycling on and off of it. That seemed to be the best for my system has been to not take it straight through, but stop it a little bit and then go back on it. But, um, I took the capsules, um, actually haven't taken our powder yet, which I want to take, or we're sold out of it right now. Um, but we'll have a vaccine. And, but anyway, um, I took the capsules and I'm taking the capsules and, um, I was actually floored cause I was kinda like, you know, Hey, I mean, all of our customers are loving this, you know, and, but you know, there's, you know, there's people who, you know, maybe they had like really bad IBS symptoms and it fixed those, but I don't have that. So what, what difference am I going to notice really? But I actually did notice a difference within like literally two to three days. And it's a difference in things that I typically don't talk about in public. Um, there are things, you know, in the bathroom more so I. Love talking about poop. You're good. Yeah. Yeah. No. So I mean talking about, yeah, we'll dive into it, uh, you know, buckle up, but, um, yeah, so, you know, I mean basically, you know, from time to time, right. I think we all, you know, no matter what, depending on what you're eating, so if you're eating like a really poor diet, like when I'm in my pizza phases where I'm just like screw nutrition and, you know, eating a pizza or something a lot, um, you know, I mean, you might have like excess gas or, you know, or sometimes even when you're eating, like you're really deep into nutrition and you're having all your broccoli and your Brussels sprouts, you also might have excess gas. So what I found with HMO was that it virtually eliminated within a few days, um, which I thought was, was good. And, um, and also, you know, when you're talking about in the restroom, um, you know, sometimes you, you can really identify, you know, learn some things about your health from your bowel movements. And you know, what I was noticing is, okay, now I'm going to the bathroom at the exact same time every day. Like you could like set my watch to it, which was kind of a good thing. Um, I'll move into, you know, or I actually hate talking about this, but, um, I do it, I do it for the job. Um, don't move, it's being, you know, um, the really like, amazingly, like kind of like the longest, most like together I'd ever seen in my life, you know, like, like, you know, sometimes people like you'll have like these little nuggets, you know, it's like, this seems unhealthy or like you're constipated. And it was the opposite of that. It was like smooth, you don't even need toilet paper. It was just like, incredible. Um, and so it's almost like if you've been having a lot of fiber or something like that, but, um, you know, basically benefits like that And, um, you know, sometimes I would have some like discomfort, like stomach discomfort and that was gone. And I will say for me, those benefits were like really striking and two to three days. And they did taper off a little bit. And that's why I became someone who cycles on and off, you know, of, of the product. Um, it doesn't just stay on it. Um, and I will say also, you know, this is not a scientific experiment and I was combining it with the Joel green protocol of having, uh, apple peels, um, apple skins, which he swears by and talks about that increasing your, um, certain types of gut bacteria along with the HMO, um, working hand in hand. So I was doing both. Um, so I guess, you know, a scientist might say, well, wait a minute, how do you know it's not just the apple peels, um, but I also cut taking the HMO and it, and it kept working. So, um, yeah, so that's just one person which, you know, you should never base anything on what one person says, but, um, but I will say it did work pretty well for me, um, which I was really happy about. Cause it gave me a lot more confidence in, uh, you know, representing our company and everything of that nature. Not that I didn't have confidence before, but it gave me more. So there have been numerous studies done. Um, the majority of the studies like 85% are on infants, um, getting, uh, actual HMO from breast milk, I'd say about 15% of the studies are on infants and adults getting HMO, which is human identical milk oligosaccharide. So for example, um, there's a study done. So, I mean, uh, first of all, just kind of name drop a little bit. I mean, some of the universities who have researched HMO's are Stanford, Harvard, MIT, uh, Denmark technical university for what it's worth and the university in Zurich, um, in Germany or Switzerland. Um, and there's also external labs. Who've researched it, um, Copenhagen university, big and Denmark. Um HMO's but, um, so yeah, there was, there's been clinical trials done, uh, with adults. Um, and so basically a number of them, you know, those in Denmark, the us and Sweden. Um, and so, you know, the gist of those, and I can send you these links for show notes or whatnot, so you have to have proof of them. But, um, one of them was done at, um, my Alma mater UNC chapel hill, where I got my master's degree, but, um, they, uh, administered, uh, synthetic, not synthetic, but HMO's to, um, adults who had presented with symptoms, who said they had IBS basically irritable bowel syndrome. And they gave them, I think it was 10 grams, um, over the course of four weeks. And they overwhelmingly reported, you know, drastic reduction in every single symptom category. Um, and so those are basic, that's basically, you know, the, the clinical trial that I always refer to, uh, given that it was here in the U S and it was relatively recent, um, there's ongoing trials. There's also been trials in Denmark where, you know, they give it to healthy adults and track, you know, what, what occurred. Um, and so, you know, it is still a relatively young product, so to speak or young, you know, uh, ingredient. So there's a lot more research to be done. Um, I think what helps give a lot of people that extra boost of confidence in it is that we do know, like there, there is like a really wide depth of research into how, um, the natural HMO's from breast milk have helped infants, you know, going back for a hundred years. So that's a very well proven credibly established, you know, you could not poke a hole in that at all. Um, you know, in terms of the research into adults, less so, but growing, and it is existed. Let's start drawing the picture a little bit more for the benefits of HMO's. So from what I've gathered, the greatest benefit is the benefit it has on the gut. Um, and we'll go towards how the gut impacts everything else afterwards, but from what has been studied either through infants or adults, how has it been found the HMO's impact, the gut and the diversity found in the gut? Yeah, so, uh, it's a really fantastic question because, you know, at the end of the day, it's like, you know, what can this do for me? Um, and so there's kind of a scientific answer, and then there's really the, the more basic answer, but, you know, uh, we'll do both. So, uh, HMO's, you know, to jump straight into it, they can really help to increase, you know, HMO's are prebiotic. And so prebiotic is usually a fiber, you know, it's a fiber that is, um, basically gonna feed the probiotic bacteria in the gut. And so, you know, probiotic, probiotic, bacteria are different strains of colonies, bacteria living in your gut microbiome. Of course, you know, this and most of your audience probably does, but for those who don't, um, and I'm not an expert on it, but, you know, from, from what I can say, um, and, you know, generally considered as good bacteria and H they need food, essentially, you know, th there's like the simplistic metaphor. And so prebiotic bacteria are going to go in and be the food for the probiotic bacteria. And so with HMO, with human milk, oligosaccharide specifically, you are going to be taking, you know, probiotic bacteria that exists in your gut, or that you're getting from a supplement or preferably from whole foods that are delivering probiotics to you, or that you might just naturally have in your system. And you're going to be increasing specifically, uh, two types of, uh, bacteria in your system. Uh, one being the fiddle bacteria and the other one being Akkermansia Musina Phila. And so these are two that have been researched and, you know, scientists are aware of, and bifidobacteria in studies, uh, is something that is in higher prevalence. Prevalency in individuals who tend to be more lean. Um, and it's also much higher in prevalence when you're a baby. Um, we tend to lose it as we get older. And when you get over 50, you have almost none. And so they've basically discovered and identified and targeted that bifidobacteria is really good for you, and you, you want to have a lot of it. And, um, basically the same thing for Akkermansia. So it increases these, um, is basically what it does. And so you're like, okay, great. So I've increased these bacteria, but now what, you know, don't, am I going to notice a difference? And I mean, you know, people should notice a difference, you know, if, if it's working, um, you know, basically what difference might you notice? You know, we believe weight management, you know, basically weight loss can, can occur from having an optimized gut environment with these two types of bacteria that HMO's will increase. Um, and then also immunity, which is incredibly important. And, you know, a lot of us take for granted and, you know, we're trying to load up on vitamin D or this or that. And when in reality, a lot of your, you know, 70% of your immune system's in the gut, and, you know, you have a gut mucus layer that is really protecting you from a lot of pathogens. And so HMO's literally have a mechanism that, uh, basically they act as a decoy and attach to pathogens and carry them away. Um, which sounds like a little fantastical, a That's all, but I mean, that's really, the way it's scientifically described in papers is that they act as a decoy and they can truly, you know, there's evidence that they can fight viruses. And I mean, honestly, when I hear this, I'm like, this sounds like. This sounds way too good to be true. And, you know, again, I mean, dosage age, what else you're eating? What else is in your gut? All of those things are going to matter of course, right. But I mean, literally you can go on pub med and type in a human milk oligosaccharide or HMO's and look at the research and, you know, it's very exciting, the potential of HMO's. Um, but basically what they're doing is four steps. They are powerfully modulating, the microbiota, they are supporting gut barrier function. We talked about that mucus layer. They are supporting the immune system and immune defense holistically in your body, but originating in the gut, and then they are also supporting gut-brain interactions. Something I haven't talked about yet, which is that there's even evidence that HMO's can help with cognitive function. And a recent study showed with motor skills in children. So, um, again, I mean, trust me, if I was listening to this, I'd be like, this guy is just, you know, sure. They, you know, they make, they make you go into, to grow taller. They help, you know, your eyesight. So that's those last two things are a joke, but, you know, it's like the benefits of, of HMO or, you know, being still being discovered. Um, there's definitely a lot of them, but we talk about immune benefit, uh, cognitive function, uh, gut health and gut health, of course can encompass a lot of different things, but you know, what's different about our product is that when you talk about prebiotics, they're actually all pretty good for you. They're all going to be feeding your gut bacteria. Um, but a lot of the benefits there are indirect. They're just like, kind of your general, like, yeah, I'm helping my gut health. You might get some indirect benefits and those are good. Um, with our product, it's actually a direct benefit. Now, some of it's indirect, but a lot of it is direct when we talk about immune cognitive function. Um, those are direct brackets. Yeah. I mean, so much of everything starts with gut health, right? I was just texting a friend and a client this morning and she said, whenever I am not eating well, I noticed my skin breaks out. My depression kind of kicks in. I start holding onto weight a lot more. And it's all because your gut is causing an inflammatory response in your body, which throws off your hormonal balances throws off everything. And that gut brain connection is so strong because our happy hormones, serotonin and dopamine are 80% are produced in our gut. And so if we have this unhealthy gut environment, as well as leaky gut, um, where your, your junctions within your gut lining are loose and you have bacteria and fungi and food particles falling through, you're going to have those inflammatory responses. So doing anything you can, and as you speak, I have like, all these people's faces popping up in my brain and I'm like, oh, she should try this. You should try those. I need to send some age. Most of my mom, you know, like all these people popping up in my brain who I want to try this because the truth is, you're never going to know what works for you individually until you give it a try. And it does sound like there's. So this sounds completely credible. It w it's worth giving a try to see if it makes a difference in your body and in your microbiome. And so it's just really interesting, but we're almost coming up on time, which is so crazy. But I am curious if you can explain the difference between HMO and probiotics. Um, that is something that I saw on your website. So I was hoping you could speak to that. And when I was doing my research and listening to a podcast with Joel green, he made this really interesting statement that you can never control when the probiotic is going to essentially seed in your body. So you could actually have good bacteria growing in places. It shouldn't be, which creates issues. Uh, and I had never heard that before. So I'd love for you to share any information you have about HMO versus probiotics. Yeah, I know it's a fantastic question. Um, I previously took probiotics for, uh, years on and off, um, prior to, you know, when I was a journalist and eating fast food, sometimes when we were on the road constantly and things was helping myself and I, I, maybe I was, but, um, Joel green is actually quite anti probiotic, which I found surprising the author of that book, the immunity code, he's pretty anti probiotic. He doesn't necessarily, I mean, you know, it's a weird thing. Like he's anti probiotic, supplementation, obviously probiotics are natural, good bacteria in our system. So he's not against that, but he's, he's kind of, he's very wary of, you know, walking into whole foods, looking at that shelf of 200 bottles of all these different colors with, you know, a hundred billion CFU or 20 billion CFU and, and just, you know, throwing a dart based on what bottle you like and picking one and taking it right with no guidance, no advice, very little research for most people. And so that was me. I was going into whole foods and being like, which one of these is refrigerated. That seems kind of, at least. You did that. My husband came home with a $10 bottle from CVS. And I was like, throw that out. You're not taking. Yeah. Right. Yeah, exactly. You know, and so, I mean, I, you know, I was looking for one that was like refrigerated. I was like, that was that's at least the bar I'll clear here. And one that, you know, had a certain amount of CFU. But other than that, I really didn't know what I was doing, what I was talking about, what strains I wanted, nothing. And that's what I, Joel green basically says, like, you should really do that under the consultation of someone who really knows what they're talking about. And with some level of analysis of your system, you know, what is your diet? What is your current, you know, what are your blood tests, et cetera. Um, and so actually it was funny because I talked to our scientist about that here more recently, they basically said the same thing they were like, yeah, it'd be pretty careful with that. I mean, not that it's gonna like destroy your system, but you can basically, you know, it can create problems and like you described, and you can also, uh, amplify or exacerbate existing problems that you're literally trying to get rid of. So, okay. Your question was though, what is the difference between HMO and probiotics? I mean, they're, they're honestly two extremely different things actually, which is that, you know, HMO is, is a type of prebiotic and, you know, prebiotics are in one camp, probiotics are in another and probiotics. I like to think of, as you know existing already in our gut and with the prebiotics and swooping in to then, you know, come in afterwards typically and feed them and nurture them. And so again, you know, we're hoping to, well with HMO, it doesn't, it's not going to go in and feed and nurture like the probiotics. It pretty much, from my knowledge from our chief scientist, Jason nurtures, bifidobacteria, and, uh, Akkermansia Musina Phila, um, which are the ones we want to target for these IBS symptoms. And actually now that I have it in front of me, the fiddle bacteria study is talking about, you know, its impact on necrotizing enterocolitis, um, with that's with like babies. Um, and then also infant, you know, benefits for dealing with inflammatory bowel disease, IBS, colon, regularity, um, et cetera. But, um, anyway, so I mean, basically it's just as simple as HMO is one type of prebiotic pre, and then you have all the probiotics pro and, you know, they're just two different things. And so the pre is going to feed the pro and HMO is just one of those, you know, we believe it's the best. It's like it's kind of has a paradox here because HMO is kind of the newest prebiotic out there in the world. But by the same token, it's also the oldest one from breast milk. So, so in this particular application of it for adults as a, uh, bio-identical prebiotic, you know, HMO prebiotic, it is the newest thing in the world. It is like the newest cutting edge method of delivering prebiotics to your, to your gut, to nurture hyper-specific probiotics, to deliver very clear cut, tangible benefits. Um, but again, like I said, a lot of us have already had HMO. We just didn't know it. So. Yeah, it's so interesting and I am so excited to try it. I want to get it here already and give my review. Um, and I think a lot of people, most people should give it a go, but what does layer origin have coming up for the brand? Yeah, it's an exciting time for us, for sure. Um, as I may have mentioned, you know, we, we first debuted our, uh, pure rage. We call it pure HMO. Um, prebiotic is, is the, is the product name. And so we debuted the capsules in early 2020. And, you know, actually when we happen to be mentioned on the Ben Greenfield fitness podcast, our sales really escalated from there. Um, we decided to come out with the powder, which, you know, offers some different benefits in terms of absorbability and purity, because we don't have to put flow agents in it. So some people prefer the powder, they can mix it into their daily smoothies or coffee or whatever. Um, it's basically a tasteless powder. Um, it's almost like, I mean, if anything, it's sweet because it is a sugar. Um, and then we came out with a prebiotic plus probiotic, which is a little bit counter to our philosophy that probiotics can be bad, but for some people they're just, you know, we identify those, I think it's 10 strains that are in it very clearly, and it's a hundred billion CFU and it's, you know, it's, it's a formulation that our scientist believes in, but, um, yeah, I mean, that's for people who want to combine the two and don't want to seek out, you know, probiotics through whole foods or through their own supplement of a different brand. And then, yeah, so the new thing is that in 2021, just actually in June last month, we debuted seven new HMO products where one of them is we're combining HMO with colostrum, which people, a lot of people are a big fan of some of the same benefits you actually get from HMO, but more indirect from colostrum, but we're combining HMO and colostrum in one product. For those who don't know, colostrum is basically the pre milk of a cow. Um, and it's extremely beneficial, um, according to a lot of research. So we're combining the best of both worlds with those two products or those two ingredients in one product. And, uh, we're also adding HMO, you know, basically doing a lot of combination. So HMO plus vitamin D D three, uh, Cola calciferol and, uh, also HMO plus fiber, a lot of good fibers. And so, yeah, just a lot of different for people who basically want to customize their nutritional needs and target something specific. That's so great. That's really exciting because so many people, especially vitamin D three are so deficient these days. And so being able to get everything that you need from one place is really important. I know I'm a vitamin D three advocate. Of course, you need to know if you need it because it's fat soluble and you don't want to be taking something that you don't need, but, um, you know, deficiencies in vitamin D three are linked to cancer and I had skin cancer. And so, uh, vitamin D three is very near and dear to my heart. So I think that's great that you guys are providing so many options, but before we wrap this up, I do have three quick hit questions for you that are more on the personal side. Um, not incredibly personal, but just your own opinion about life and living a healthy lifestyle. So the first one is what does having a clean body mean to you? What's having clean body mean? Um, I mean, I think that, uh, you know, the term like eat clean has been a little bit, um, distorted over the years, you know, and the, the definition of that has been kind of overused and it's just become, you know, an Instagram hashtag. Um, but you know, so that's like the first thing that comes to my mind for whatever reason, but, um, you know, obviously I get the point of, you know, I mean, it's still a good term, you know, and it still relates to, I think what a lot of us want at heart, which is, you know, something that is, um, on adulterated, you know, um, something that is very pure. And, um, you know, I know that when I'm, uh, eating the way I want to eat and op you know, I'm operating at my, you know, uh, optimal function level, uh, I feel really good. You know, I feel light, I feel lean. I feel, you know, ready for action, um, light on my feet. And, um, you know, I certainly don't feel like kind of more bloated or heavy. And so I think that's what it means for me actually, like I can distinctly feel the difference of when I'm like, you know, really in a good flow pattern of eating for 30 days or even a couple of weeks versus when I'm not. And it's a big difference, both, you know, mentally from a confidence standpoint and, you know, mental clarity that lack, you know, less brain fog. And, um, also from a level of just like literally, you know, the macros that I'm ingesting, or if I'm in like, you know, anabolic state versus a catabolic state, I've I feel like I can really feel that different. So I guess that's my long-winded nonsensical answer for that one. No, that's good. Isn't it. So funny how we know how good we feel when we're living like our most optimal way, but it's never, you can't ever stay there forever. You always have a downfall. You always fall off the bandwagon and something I'm telling you about all the time. Yeah. You can't judge yourself for it. We all go through it. I'm a holistic, you know, nutrition therapist and I have that week. So like, it just, it's a part of the journey, but with that, you can't create stress. Um, you know, even supplementing with HMO, if you have an exorbitant amount of, in your life, your gut health is going to, um, be impacted by that. So the next question is what are some lifestyle habits you have that you could not live without? Hm, lifestyle habits I can't live without. Um, I think one of them is I, you know, it's so, so, so simple, but I had some friends that don't do this and it, it blows my mind is, is I try to start the day with some water, uh, specifically purified water. It's really important to me. And I like a cold, even though I've heard that it's better to drink at room temperature, but yeah, living on the edge, I like to drink a cold and only about eight ounces. I'll start with those eight ounces. And that's like the first thing I want to do. I think, you know, you just wake up from, hopefully you're getting, you know, between seven to 10 hours of sleep the night before, and, you know, you're parched, you literally been fasting, uh, for the night. And to me, it's very important to be in a good mood and to just get that fluid into your system. So, uh, purified water, uh, is very important to me and I keep harping on purified because I used to live in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and we were one of the American cities that had really like a lead epidemic of, of lead in the water. I actually had a pipe replaced going into my house for $2,000 to try to, you know, get that lead out of the system. And it wasn't just my house. It was like the whole system, there was a scandal involving a company from Paris and it was crazy. And, you know, Detroit obviously has had its problems with, um, you know, uh, led and even the new, a new issue is the chemical called PFAS, which is infiltrating the water supply. And, you know, I sound like I'm paranoid and maniac, but, um, you know, clean waters is, I think it's like a human right. And so I'm pretty passionate about that. And so anyway, this is such a crazy answer for that question, but I think starting the day with, you know, some, some cold purified water, it doesn't have to be too much, even eight ounces, 10 ounces. And, um, uh, I, I kind of want to rid myself of the caffeine addiction. I still do love coffee and drink coffee all the time, probably way too much. Um, but I kinda want to get off of caffeine. I think it it's maybe not that great long-term and, and kind of inducing this fight or flight response in me. That's not natural. And so, yeah, that's something that's kind of on my to-do list. Uh, tried a few times and, you know, it's been interesting to experiment with that for 30 days, but, uh, yeah. Things every day, I don't know, water, you know, I'm a big believer in strength training and, you know, uh, how important that is. And, and, you know, I I've run a couple of marathon Sanjoy running as well, but I need to get back into that. So I would just say like the water and strength training, I think that like, people's, people's minds are blown sometimes whenever they just lift a little bit of weights and, and see like the confidence it gives you, you know, both men and women, um, or anybody, uh, you know, of how much, how beneficial that can be. Yeah. I mean, also in you're lifting weights or you're doing any kind of workout, your oxygen intake is different and oxygen is the number one most important thing to the cells in your body. You know, you can go days without food. You can go days without water, even longer than that, but you can't go very long without oxygen your needs oxygen. So when you're engaging in those activities, it increases that and a hundred percent about the water I am. If we want to call it paranoid, fine, but there's so many studies, there's so much proof that people have heavy toxicity, heavy metal toxicity in their body because of the water they're drinking. And, you know, these things that we talked about sound so easy, like you said, like it's too good to be true at some point during the interview, you're right. It's getting back to the basics and the foundation and staying committed to them. It's really not insanely difficult, but for some reason we've played into marketing ploys that fat-free, sugar-free all these man made products are better for us than sticking to those foundations. And it really doesn't have to be too hard. We just need to change the way we think about it. But last question for you before we wrap it up, because I've kept you here long enough and quizzed you enough today. Um, but are there any other brands that you love and you're supporting outside of layer origin? Oh, interesting question. Um, yeah, I mean, you know, I think that, um, you know, what they're doing over at, uh, I don't know how to pronounce it, but Ali pop, you know, is, is pretty cool and pretty exciting. I don't know if you've heard about them. Um, they, uh, you know, basically have a prebiotic, um, soda off, um, you know, and, uh, I haven't tried it yet, but, um, I'm gonna try it. And so, okay, great. Yeah. So if there's some flavors that sound really good, so, you know, I'm always looking for something else to drink because I, I don't want to drink, you know, obviously actual soda because of the sugar content or the diet ones because of the aspartame and things like that. So, um, you know, I think what they're doing is interesting, um, for sure. And I like their branding and logos and marketing and things like that. Um, you know, I mean, before I started working for a supplement company, I, you know, I, I liked to, I listened to some podcasts with Dr. Rhonda Patrick, and she would often recommend like pure Encapsulations as a brand and, um, thorn. And so, I mean, I'm kind of a big fan of brands that are like pretty simple and just like really down to the science and just down to the products and, you know, not a lot of hype and marketing and, and things of that nature. So, um, you know, just things that are going to have efficacy and, and, uh, just be like really pure. So, um, you know, it's kind of weird for a supplement company to recommend other supplement companies, but, you know, they don't have the HMO and some of the other things we have. So I think it's a, I think I'm safe doing that. Um, but, uh, yeah, I mean, I would say that's, you know, that's about it. Um, you know, I think I liked the ethos of, you know, what Patagonia does with, you know, really supporting the planet and, you know, leading with their values and, um, and, uh, you know, there's another, a new brand. Um, I don't know how to pronounce it. It's like Koto Cotopaxi, which is like, kind of like a backpack and clothing brand that has, I was just reading about them today that they, um, they source a lot of the materials for their backpacks and clothing. Uh, they basically take the remnants and of other companies, uh, products like shirts or jackets or whatever, and then use those to make brand new products. And which you would think that sounds like horrible, but, um, the products actually look very cool. They're like bright colors, and they even let their, uh, workers, which are in the Philippines, but they pay them a fair wage and they let them actually create products like the colors that they want to create taking these scraps from other products. So I thought that was a great idea, cause there's just so much waste happening and so much waterways and product waste. And every time you create a t-shirt, it like takes whatever, like a hundred gallons of water or something ridiculous. And so just a cool brand, you know, they seem to make really, I don't own anything of theirs, but they seem to make really great products. And, um, it's named after there is a volcano in Ecuador Cotopaxi volcano. Um, so anyway, uh, maybe didn't maybe I wasn't supposed to go to clothing brands, but you know, oh, that's great. Yeah. I actually was literally just looking for a hiking backpack and I cannot not bring myself to buy any because I didn't, none of them were necessarily sustainable except these like $400 ones that I found. And I can't afford that. So I will have to look into them. That's a great tip and yeah, if you've never watched the documentary river blue, it's about how we make blue jeans. And I have not bought, I saw that like three years ago and I have not bought a pair of blue jeans since, um, just been wearing my same ones. That'll change your life, but thank you so much. This was a really great interview. How can listeners get their hands on some product? How can they get in touch with you or the brand if they have any questions, shout out what all those links in those social profiles are. Yeah, sure. So, um, you know, we sell all of our products on amazon.com. Um, so if you are, you know, a prime person, uh, and want that two day shipping, you know, that's a good place to go. Um, if you want to, um, you know, we, uh, we, we prefer you come to our website though and check it out and you can learn a lot more there where we have a lot of pages dedicated to HMO. We have our blog, um, which is the ultimate guide to HMO's everything you could ever want to know about them. And, um, and we also, uh, we also get a higher commission, you know, Amazon takes a big portion of, of your, of your profits as a small business, which is unfortunate, but Hey, you know, it's, it's fast shipping, but, um, yeah. So layer origin.com, L a Y E R O R I G I n.com. Um, and you can actually, we have a discount code for which is a clean body, 25, um, 25% off discounts, um, on any product, uh, any HMO product that is, um, we also have daily SuperGreens, which we think are better than athletic greens. Um, and we have some other exciting things as well. Um, I talked about some of the patents that we have there actually for some of our other products. And, uh, one thing I didn't mention is that we have 400 acres of farmland here in upstate New York, central New York, that we try to source as many ingredients as possible from, so another thing that we try to do to be different, but, uh, yeah, so, and we're pretty much layer origin on all social media profiles include, uh, Instagram we're at layer underscore origin. So we hope people will check us out there. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. This was a really great conversation and I am excited to try it, and I'm also excited to spam everybody in my cell phone with the lengths and the discount code and get them to take it too. And I'll let you know what everyone says. Right? Sounds great. Thanks so much for having us. Hi everyone. I hope you enjoyed that interview. As a reminder, this podcast is for educational purposes. Only. It is not a substitute for professional care from a doctor or otherwise qualified health professional. This podcast is provided on the understanding that medical or other health related services. If you're looking for help in your journey, seek out we'll see you next time.