Trans and The Art of Drag

You may not know it yet, but doing drag and being transgender are NOT the same thing. Drag is a type of performance art. Transgender is a type of gender identity. As Drag Race as a competition, and it's contestants, have evolved over the last 14+ years, we've seen more and more Transgender Drag Performers compete and WIN! But you may still have some questions about what it all means, or are unsure of how it makes you feel. Today's episode we chat through our thoughts on Transgender People in Drag, and how it's important to support everyone.
Here's a wealth of information from a representative from Planned Parenthood:
Drag performers make the act of expressing gender — through their stage name, clothing, makeup, hair, and how they perform on stage — highly creative, exaggerated, and/or theatrical. Many drag artists perform on stage as a character who has a different gender identity than their day-to-day life.
Artists who perform in drag are often called drag queens, drag kings, or drag performers. Drag queens perform in hyper feminine costumes — often with glittery, colorful makeup. Drag kings perform in hyper masculine costumes — often with added facial hair.
A person of any gender identity can be a drag performer. Drag is known for being an art form that comments on gender norms in imaginative ways.  Sometimes this is done through lip-syncing, skits, comedy, impersonations, or dance.
Being transgender, however, is not a performance. Transgender is a gender identity. Identifying as transgender is about who you are every day. Transgender people experience their gender in a way that’s different from the gender the doctor gave them on their birth certificate when they were born. In daily life, trans folks express their gender just like anybody else — through their name, pronouns, clothing, hairstyle, how they talk and move, and more.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Hi everyone, welcome back. Hey guys, welcome back. This is the second episode of season four of the Mr. and Mrs. Show. And speaking of Mr. and Mrs., today's topic is going to be trans and biological women in the art form of drag.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Well, season uh what was it, 14 or 15 just concluded, and we just started All Stars 8, I believe.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Something like that.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Something like that. Um, and Sasha Colby is the new America's drag queen superstar winner as a trans woman, and I could not be more pleased. I am ecstatic that she won. She was my everything for this season. And there's a lot of controversy regarding drag, a lot of controversy regarding women and trans women in the art of drag, which has traditionally been men dressing up as women. So we thought it would be good to share some expressions and maybe open up the conversation for this newfounded entry into the art form of drag.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

So Neek is this reigning all-star at this point, too, right? Correct. Who's also trans. Correct. That's awesome. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Yes, I do too. I don't know if there are any trans queens from the first season of Drag Race. So Neek might be the first.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

But nonetheless, um, I started doing drag back in the mid-90s. Back in the 90s. Um, so from today to when I started doing drag would have been the same amount of time that Marty McFly went back in time and back to the future.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Oh, I don't do math. Sorry, I can't figure that out.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

So when I started doing drag, it was very much a gay man's game. It was a bunch of gay men who were dressing up as women and we were getting on stage and lip-syncing around to other people's songs. Now I started doing drag in San Francisco, which had a predominantly large, comparatively, trans community. And I worked with at least two or three trans members in the cast of one of the drag shows that I was in. And at first I didn't quite understand how a trans person was doing drag, but they were such great queens, they were super talented that it literally took one or two shows before I even stopped thinking about them as being trans, and they were just who they were performing the same art style that I was performing. So I think my challenge with it was feeling, and it was jealousy, not that I want to be trans, but I kind of looked at trans women in the art of drag as like baseball players who use steroids. They had an advantage over me in creating the illusion. I would go out on stage and I would have to use bird seed and pantyhose with a bra that was two sizes too small and try to pull any skin I had up over it to create the look of cleavage and then paint the makeup to make it look more exaggerated. And a lot of the times the illusion worked and sometimes it didn't, but that's what it was. It was an illusion. And then my trans colleagues didn't have to do any of that. They didn't even have to wear a bra. They just put on their outfit and they went out and they had breasts. And it was a fantastic illusion that was not an illusion. So for a long time I thought, well, I don't know how I feel about this. I'm just going to have to do the best drag that I can do. So I feel like I hold my own in the arena of illusion. And that's what I did to the point to where people started calling me a tranny. And back in the day, that wasn't as offensive as it is now. And I feel okay saying it only in talking about myself and the fact that almost every person I then worked with said that I was a tranny because I wasn't doing the big drag makeup. I was looking like my trans colleagues when I would go out on stage.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

You were painting for fish.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

I was painting for fish. Which is also not a great term now. It's a derogatory term now. Uh it's a pejorative term in a certain way. But nonetheless, it enmeshed me in trans culture in a way where although I am not a trans person, I really appreciate the contribution of trans women to my life as it pertains to my drag career and how they helped me elevate my game, regardless of whether I was going to be trans or not.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Yeah, I think that a lot of people uh shared a similar experience than that you did, not necessarily in the drag community, but in just trying to understand uh what trans is and how does trans play into what we have known as drag. Um, and that's something that changes over time as well. I mean, you said we're 14 or 15, something like that, to put in all the all-stars and the worlds and all that. There we've watched at least like what 15 years of drag race now. The game has changed, the drag uh aesthetic has changed and it's expanded. And I think yeah, and I and I think what what I hope a lot of people realize is that it has nothing to do with them. Like it's it's not up to us to decide if what someone else is doing with their life is what they say it is, if that makes sense. Like it's not up for us to decide, oh, this person isn't trans, but they're saying they're doing drag. It's not for us to decide whether they're not doing drag or not. Because I I've realized that drag is not a specific parameter. Drag is an art form, it is a form of expression, regardless of who's doing it. Straight men, straight women, gay men, gay women, trans people. It doesn't matter. It could be a dog. I'm gonna put my dog in drag. It is an art form of expression, just like painting with pastels, just like singing a song, just like dancing. It is just a different form of expression, and different people are doing it. And I understand that uh at first glance, it may seem like a trans person has an advantage because they already have some of the body parts that make it a little bit easier for them to fulfill that fantasy or that um aesthetic or illusion, like you say. Um but I think that's also in the context of competition.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Well, and it's evolution too, because in the 90s we did not do flat-chested drag. Now you have flat-chested drag. Right. So a trans woman with breast implants does not have an advantage over that. So now it really just depends on the kind of aesthetic that you want to present in drag, which at this point in time has become a very specialized version of entertainment, it's a highly stylized, very specific type of entertainment, and anybody can do that now. It's not just men dressing up as women, right? And I think the more the merrier, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:37

It's so cool. It's so fucking cool. Like I love it.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Yes, it is cool, but the more people we have contributing to something who have a passion for it, the better it becomes. Yeah, absolutely. And that's where I'm at. So you can have a trans woman performing drag, you can have a biological woman performing drag, because the truth is, is neither one of those people would go out into the world looking the way that they do when they're on stage, in the same way that a man who does drag does not go out into the world and performs their day job looking the way that they do when they're on stage. It is a part that we play. Yeah. If Charlize Naron can play Monster, then great. If what Kate Blanchette can play Buddy Holly, great. If John Travolta can play uh and Naturnblatt and Hairspray, then great. What we're doing is we are achieving this pool of creative talent that lends themselves passionately to once again a very specific and highly stylized form of entertainment that has evolved over the years and become better for that evolution.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

And it's I mean, it's transformative, it's magical, it's cool, it's really exciting to see people transform in this way to create these characters and these experiences and moments.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

And I mean, there's still It's okay for Julia Roberts to play 50 different characters in every different movie that she's in, as long as she doesn't cross a gender barrier. There's something about crossing a gender barrier that takes playing a part to a whole nother realm with a specific group of people that then choose to attack it.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Specifically men to females.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Specifically men.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Men are the ones that attack it. And I don't know if this is true or not, but as the saying goes, where there's smoke, there's fire. If the lady doth protest too much, something else is going on other than what they're attacking. Their attack says more about them than the thing that they are attacking.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Yeah. Well, and when when something like drag becomes a political statement and a um a platform for politicians, then you know they really don't give a shit either way. They don't care about drag, they don't care about children. No, all they care about is ramping up behind something that they can yell about so that other people can say, oh, that makes me uncomfortable too. I'm gonna yell about that too.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Well, in the bastardized topics, gender is not sex. Representing a gender other than what you have is not sexualizing yourself or the gender.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

However, when you take a little girl and you tan her up and you put fake teeth and makeup on her and you do her hair and you put her out in a skimpy two-piece and you send her out on stage in front of a bunch of men and make her swivel her hips and imitate choreography that she sees her breasty mom doing in the audience. That is sexualizing that child, and they didn't have to swap genders to do that. Drag is not sexualized. Yes, a lot of drag queens are sexual beings because we learn how to be in touch with our sexuality so that we can better do our job. But that has to do with us and our presentation of ourselves while we're performing our craft. It doesn't mean that if I step out on stage or I step in front of a camera or I go out on a runway, I think I'm looking like this so that I can try to get everybody in bed that doesn't want to go to bed with me.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

You don't want to go to bed with me. I don't want you in my fucking bed.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Or if you're doing a drag queen story time, you're not there grinding your hips and showing kids how to do things. You're just reading a storybook about rainbows and animals and cute little things because that's a nice thing to do for people.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Yeah, I mean, so this is probably going to be a controversial statement on our podcast. And I'm not saying that it's bad by any means, but I also, and I definitely am not saying that reading to children in drag indoctrinates them into drag or um sexualizes them. But I also don't understand this rush to have drag queens read to kids because despite my comments about evolution within my profession, it has always been a nightclub profession. It has always been a show and a review for 18 or 21 plus. So kids can love drag queens, and that's great. And you can find drag queens on social media doing makeup tutorials and stuff like that. But I'm still haven't been brought up to speed on why this has to be such a hot button topic. What is the goal of incorporating children's reading by drag queens? Like, I don't like kids. I don't want kids around me. I don't want kids at any show I'm performing at. I don't want kids on any set or runway show that I'm doing. It's not why I do what I do. I, at this stage of my career, I'm a salesperson. When I get up on a runway, I'm not doing it for fans, I'm doing it for buyers. I'm selling garments for buyers to purchase. And if I do a good job, the designer hires me back. That's what I do. Now, if somebody wants to do it, they want to play Mother Goose. Okay, great, that's fine, but I don't get it. So I'm not really a huge campaigner for it. But I also think that men showing up with assault rifles at drag queen readings are what's scaring the shit out of these kids, not the drag queens reading to them. I just worry that these kids might be being used by parents who are trying to push an agenda that has nothing to do with the kid or the drag queen reading to the kid. And the people that are getting caught in the crosshairs are the drag queens because all too many times in my 25-plus year career, as the drag queen, I've always been at the bottom of the totem pole. I've always been the expendable one. So I get a little, pardon the expression, gun shy around things that are being pushed so hard that necessarily don't make sense to me.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Let the controversy start.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

That's a fair statement. So drag queen story time as as like a genre, I don't even know what else to call it. It's been around for at least 20 years. And it's a it's generally started as like a public library service. Um, so you have story time at the library. Kids know that they can go, their parents can bring them on like a random Saturday or Sunday, and they someone will speak, and it's usually the librarian sitting there and reading them a book. Yay, great. Maybe they're snacks, that's it. I don't know who thought of it, but someone decided, hey, I'm gonna dress in drag in a very like pee-wee's playhouse, Mr. Rogers, Sesame Street kind of way, and entertain these kids in a different way that maybe um Mrs. Kravitz, the librarian, isn't capable of doing herself. Sure, sure and just have some fun with it. Um and then it just kind of grew from there because I having done it quite a few times myself, it's really uh it's enriching, it's invigorating. Uh it's fun to see the smiles on these kids' faces when they see this magic, sparkly princess in front of them. And I think that they respond the same way uh to me in drag reading the a story as they would to Elsa, someone dressed up as a Disney princess or someone dressed up as Spider-Man. The kids don't really care either way.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

I think they just they're not sexualizing it at that age unless they've been taught to sexualize things at home.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Exactly. The key difference is that what happens at some of these drag queen story times, and I'll say to mine too, is I read content and books that lets these children know that it's okay to be different. It's okay to have a different opinion, it's okay to be a boy, it's okay to be a girl, it's okay to not know who you are or what you are, it's okay to not have what two parents, one parent, like and you're just one example of that.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

You're not the example for them.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Exactly. And the stories you typically have nothing to do with me as a drag queen or the kids themselves. It's a it's a story about a fictional animal that doesn't fit in. It's like the starbellied snitches. Remember that Dr. Seuss book?

SPEAKER_01 16:08

No.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

So the one island has snitches with one star, one island has snitches with two stars, and they kept fighting who was the better of the species, the one stars or the two stars? And then there was someone who showed up and said, I don't have any stars. And then they teased them. And it's like the idea that you're just Well, hold on.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Did the side that had two stars give the side that had no stars one of their stars? So then they all each had one star?

SPEAKER_00 16:36

No, they all kept trying to one up each other. So they would go through.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

And that's what's wrong with our society.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

I mean, hello if you just and when you realize that it's it the stars don't matter and we're all just different and we're all trying to live the same sometimes shitty life. Why not just make it easier on each other and enjoy people for who they are? And that's kind of the basis of what many of these drag queen story times are.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

I completely agree with that, and I and I I stand by that. I think where my blank brain is glitching is that drag has always been an adult performance.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yeah, and that's fair.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Even if I'm not on stage with a fake dildo singing for your eyes only, I'm on a runway. What I'm presenting on that runway is not meant for children because a five-year-old isn't gonna run over to Saks Fifth Avenue and purchase it off the rack. Yeah. So if for me, I would not be the kind of person that would say, Hey, I'm gonna read to kids, unless I became such a household name that kids learned who I was, treated me like any other celebrity, and was excited over the fact that a well-known celebrity was going to be reading to them like Sharon Stone did at Macy's in San Francisco all those years ago when I saw her.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Well, and and it it depends on context as well. It would be like the difference between uh Nina West reading storybooks to kids, who's a very like kid-friendly, happy, Disney, smiley princess of a drag queen. That makes sense. And you probably wouldn't have someone like Bianca Del Rio doing a children's story time because she'd just be throwing f-bombs the entire time.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Well, I think Bianca Del Rio would know Rio would know how to edit for her audience. Oh, she would, but she would But she's also more of a household name than Nina West is, but if you are a drag queen, where is the jump from doing what we came up to do versus saying I'm gonna start reading to children in this very controversial platform?

SPEAKER_00 18:35

It just depends.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Then it's like, are you doing it just to prove something?

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Because then the kids become collateral damage in that.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

And at that point, it's not necessary. You there's no real reason to do it other than politicizing it on the other side of the fence.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Well, and that's what I feel is happening. Like it's I see that sometimes there's a lot of political politicalization of it, and then you get, you know, those guys showing up and ambushing it, and it's like there's gotta be a better way to encourage tolerance. Like, maybe if we spent that energy at the voting polls voting to maintain our sacred education so that these things were taught to our kids in school, they wouldn't need it in these other uncontrollable, controversial platforms. And then once that starts to happen, then we can have more drag queen reading because it's something that they're not being introduced to by the drag queen. They're being introduced to it through their American history, which drag has been around since Shakespeare's day. And the only reason drag started was because the patriarchal system said women couldn't perform on stage.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

I mean, that's the root of most of our country's problems, specifically, is the lack of proper education throughout.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

And it's only getting worse because the more uneducated we are, the more ignorant we are, the more violent we are, and the more easily we are controlled when it comes time to voting. And we believe the things that our camps throw at us, whether you're left, right, up, down, diagonal, you toilet bowl swirls to the left or your toilet bowl swirls to the right. Like we are fed things to infuriate us, and the more ignorant we are, the more easily we offended we are, the more easily offended we are, the more incensed we become.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

But you are right, and that that's why these programs started in the first place. The only reason there's drag queen story time is because they stopped telling stories in school. So no kids weren't being read to. They weren't being read to at home, they weren't being read to at school, at the library, so someone saw an opportunity to educate and entertain and enlighten kids in a way that they weren't they didn't have access to. Yeah. I and I agree with you. Sometimes it seems like people are doing it for the wrong reasons, but that goes for everything. And I think it just depends on the person, even like in your analogy of a celebrity, like it's the difference between seeing Julia Roberts read a story to children and Gary Buisey reading a story to children.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

One of those situations isn't gonna go very well, and then you But that's also because Gary Bucey does not do projects that lend themselves to a child's audience. So how would they know to revere him when he's telling them a story? Julia Roberts does movies like Mirror Mirror and other projects that appeal to a child's mind in a way of processing so that if they were to see that person, then it would mean something.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

And so, once again, I'm not saying it's right and I'm not saying it's wrong. I just have a difficult time getting my brain to make that flip that an unknown drag queen is inherently appreciated by children during drag story time without it being introduced to them, not indoctrinated, but introduced to them.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Yeah, I understand that. I'm and it's probably the same reason why some people are worried or scared about seeing a man in the dress to begin with.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Absolutely, and that's why the world is gray, because everyone's experiences cannot be dictated solely by my experiences and my perception.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

And they shouldn't be.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Which is why I say it's not right, it's not wrong. I'm not going and protesting it. I'm not. Actually, it's like abortion. I don't have a uterus, I don't have a say. Like, I'm not reading to kids. I don't plan to read to kids. I don't have a say.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

That's let people do what they want to do without the threat of violence from bullies who are too ignorant to say, well, their experience isn't my experience, so I should just let them have their experience.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

That's how people should be living their lives anyway.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

A hundred percent. The ignorant can't do that. And the government, without digressing, is making sure that we keep kicking out more and more ignorant people with each generation because it creates chaos, and that's where we're at right now.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

It's real fun. Going back to our initial trans women and biological women in drag, in the beginning it seemed very chaotic for me, but then when I started to understand the evolution of the process and I started to see how two heads are better than one, and four heads are better than two, and we began this evolution process, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Sorry, I just saw this new like two-headed drag queen, four-headed drag queen. It's this new, like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Well, some cases, three heads are better than someone already got theirs chop. But it it's about being open to the evolution of the process. And we need to live in an environment where if we don't understand something, we can ask about it without fear of being chastised for not inherently or automatically knowing what the quote unquote woke thing is to do. Because I stand behind the woke movement. We do need to be mindful, we do need to be self-aware, we do need to recognize and course-correct injustices in this world. But when it gets to the point where somebody might be afraid to ask a simple question that they don't understand because it hasn't been their process, that in and of itself is also a problem. So if I can get to a point where I want to have trans women and biological women standing next to me performing the same highly stylized form of entertainment that I do because, hey, something for everyone, then surely we can get to a point where it's not drag queens reading to kids. It's kids get story time in this country, and story time producers look for all walks of life to present those stories so that kids get a more well-rounded perception of who the people are that make up the world around them.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Yeah, I totally agree with that. Maybe someday.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Maybe someday, but we've got to be open to growth and we've got to shed our ego, we've got to shed our preconceived notions of what we think our life is supposed to be, and the idea that someone else doing something differently than us is somehow a representation of who we are as an individual.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Or taking away something that you want yourself.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Well, yeah, I mean, there I think I mentioned it in the previous podcast. It's it it befuddles me when I'm giving you something that takes nothing away from somebody else, but then somebody else has to come in and say, no, that's not right. They can't have that. Why? It doesn't cost you anything, but it keeps them from feeling superior, it keeps them from feeling like they have something that you don't, because everybody needs to feel like they're better than somebody else. Because we've all been once again sold a damaged bill of goods growing up in this capitalistic society that if you're not stepping on somebody else, then you're going to get stepped on.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Yep, totally.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

So, having said that, I want to say congratulations again to Miss Sasha Colby and her win. I want to say congratulations to Sonique and her current reign. And I'm very excited to continue. Uh, I believe we are on season eight of All Stars, and so far the first two episodes have been really good. I'm excited for all of these queens.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

I'm pretty happy about it. I like All-Stars in general. We were talking about it before, not just because it's all-stars. Wow, new season.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

New lips.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Yeah, but it's it's cool because uh I like to see the queens come back bigger and better than before. Yeah, more confident, uh, more in touch with who they are. They're not playing the the uh reality TV game so much. Right, they're not going back and forth and talking behind each other's backs and throwing like it's none of that bullshit. It's just let's watch these queens do what they do best and duke it out the right way. Yep. And it's it's entertaining and it's really a lot of fun. So I'm happy with that.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

And speaking of trans, uh Jinx won the Queen of Queens. She did. She's the current, and uh, she made a performance appearance at the finale of the latest season of Root Pulse Drag Race, where she sung her number, her big number from Chicago.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

When you're good to mama.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

When you're good to mama. And let me tell you, I was in tears and head-to-toe goosebumps over the caliber of this professional's command over her instrument. She is phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

And that's coming from a jaded gay man who hates most anything that's related to musical theater and is quick to jump on the bandwagon when shitting on it. So for him to say that it was a good performance, you know that it's a good performance. So check it out on YouTube if you haven't seen it. I've watched it about 12 times now.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Highly recommended. All right, that is us. That is our uh second episode of us. That is us.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

That's the new ABC show. That is us. That is us. That'd be us.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

I think that I think this one would be a Bravo or logo.

SPEAKER_00 27:53

Oh, of course.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

BH1, and then eventually MTV if we're gonna.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Then I won't even watch it. I won't even watch, I won't even watch my own show if it's on Bravo.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Bravo. Oh my god, that could be that could be uh The straight man's Bravo. Yeah, instead instead of instead of having all the housewives, you have all of the house husbands, and it's the Bravo network.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Oh my god, that would be boring. Just them sitting around talking about nothing.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

They'd be talking about all the cosmetic surgeries, who got caught in the bathroom stall at the Abbey last night with someone they weren't supposed to, who's overextended on their line of credit.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Gross.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Uh-huh. Who got in trouble for sleeping with someone's husband.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Tune in next week for more exciting Bravo Real Hasebros of New Brosia.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Because we've got all the tea in season four. Gross.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

Thanks for listening, guys. Bye. Bye.