Acing the Startup Funding Process: Key Insights from Expert Jonathan Holis, Managing Partner, Mountside Ventures

Jonathan Holis is Managing Partner at Mountside Ventures. He joins Work in Fintech's Matthew Cheung to share insights about:

-The steps from idea to funding
-Breaking down the fundraising process
-Tips to close funding quickly and efficiently

1:01 How Jonathan went from PWC to founding a venture company
4:48 What does Mountside Ventures do
5:53 What is a fundraising process
8:00 Looking for the right investor
9:14 Different types of investors
11:04 Raising money is like sales
12:09 Valuation is more of an art than a science
14:48 Startup and funding terminology - what is a series A, B etc
16:55 How did you go about starting your own fund
23:12 Knowing your investor and how they raise money will help you close faster
24:48 Tips to speed up the investment process (decks, biz plans)
27:36 Lifecycle of an investment fund - VCs have to do the same fundraising process that startups do

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Transcript

00:00:02:07 - 00:00:05:05
Hi, this
is Matthew Cheung from Work in Fintech.

00:00:05:07 - 00:00:08:07
And today I'm delighted to be joined
by Jonathan Hollis,

00:00:08:14 - 00:00:11:15
who's
a managing partner of Mountside Ventures.

00:00:11:17 - 00:00:15:14
He also cut his teeth PWC
where he helped to found

00:00:15:14 - 00:00:19:13
the raise and scale programs
that was helping early stage startups.

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So hi Jonathan,
Thanks for joining us today.

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Great to be here.

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So we've known each other

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a few years now, but about five, six,
seven years, something like that.

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And we actually met through PWC
when with ipushpull

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which I'm also a CEO of,
was looking to raise some money

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and we can kind of go into start ups

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and early stage
funding and talk about those

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interesting factors
and things you need to know to make

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that process more efficient
because that's essentially what you do.

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But before you jump into that,
you want to just kind of introduce

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yourself,
talk about some of your background,

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talk about some of the story about kind of
how you've got to where you are today.

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Sure.

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So I was born in Brussels,

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moved to the UK when I was eight.

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I couldn't speak the language,

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so that was a bit of a challenge,
but got to grips with it

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in, you know, in a five or six year
periods and was raised

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after the age of eight in the Midlands
to spend my time in work

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and in Leamington and then went to uni.

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My now wife's father requested

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this only get a professional qualification
before marrying his

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daughter. And so I did.

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And they recommended the ACA,
which is the professional accounting

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qualification
which I could highly recommend doing.

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And the idea was it provides a grounding

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for an educational perspective and a bit
of a passport to get into different jobs.

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And so the idea is you learn the basics
of business through an accounting lens.

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Did that for three years
and then that allowed you to open up

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different opportunities, which is after
that, what I did and I explored

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Peter.

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We see a number of different secondments.

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The I worked in the data team
because I got quite worried

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that all of audit was going to become

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done by robots.

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So I thought I better start

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learning a bit of programing,
but a code with a data lens.

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And during my time actually

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an audit did turn more into

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tech.

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So, you know, my first thought it,
I was sitting counting

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invoices and checking documents.

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By the time I left,
it was all done manually.

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And the so it's all the way

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through automation and the manual work
was only the risky items

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anyway, so I did that for a bit.

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That's a stint in the data team

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also then got back to,

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I guess, my interests and passion,
which is startups,

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and so landed in the capital markets team.

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And within that team normally
IPOs and capital markets is associated

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with big companies, but
I had the opportunity of working with him

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when they raised money
on their own platform to crack crack

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at one of the big crowd funders
and they decided to raise 5 million plus

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and they
decided to raise on their platform,

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which is quite neat way of doing it,
worked on that transaction.

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Which reminds me, the startups,
you know, is where my interests lie.

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And so I then landed in the innovation
team at PWC.

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We were tasked by the board

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to try and build a proposition
that appealed to early stage companies.

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PWC was known for its corporate clients,

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but it had barely any presence
in the startup world.

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And so I guess we had an objective
to make it

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make it, but, you know, make it
well known or better known.

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And so we did.

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We built a couple of propositions
to service the industry,

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and one of them was leveraging the clients
that Peter received

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through a corporate accelerator type model
where companies come,

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they pitch to maybe a room of Peter
B, C executives and also corporates

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to try and land the deal.

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And then the other was
then turned into a fund raising program,

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which I think it was moved for with,

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and that became a way

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of supporting companies
on their fundraising journey, decided that

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actually that was why I was interested
in having started the Proposition

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seven years ago
now and decided three years ago to leave.

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I'm launched

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outside
it, along with two of the co-founders

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who were also involved
in that proposition at

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Peter B, C and who I am today.

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So what amounts I do.

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So we're looking to build Europe's

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leading advisory firm,
specifically focused on fundraising

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with a mission of optimizing
that process for founders and funds.

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There's a lot of,
you know, if we take a step back

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and look at the pain points that startups,

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especially fintechs, face,
they fall into three categories

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access to customers, access
to cash and access to talent.

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And one of the things that you find
working for professional services firm

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is that it's much more exciting
working with companies

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where what you're selling is
what they want as opposed to compliance

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and other regulatory work,
you know, like it like an audit.

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And so we decided to focus
on this fundraising angle

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because, you know, speaking to founders,
fundraising is is a big pain point.

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And so as a result, that's
what we're trying to do with with outside.

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We're trying to make
that fundraising process as efficient

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as possible for both the founders,
but also for those investors investing.

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So can you talk through

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what a funding process is?

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You know, if I'm starting
with a blank sheet of paper

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over university at the moment,
I might have a great idea

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how how do I take that
great idea to fruition

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on the fundraising side
rather than go to market?

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Yeah, I think that's that you can talk
for hours on the operating side.

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Let's assume that you've got
a bit of traction and a bit of revenue

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and that you're interested
in approaching investors.

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I guess the first thing to do
is to make sure that you've got

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a good set of documents,
you've got a good teaser or good debt

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that you can show to people, and there's
lots of information on your website

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to get them out.

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So that account that we list
all of these resources on there.

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But if you've got a good team
and a good, you know, some good materials,

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maybe a
maybe a debt, maybe a business plan,

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if you're if you're

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starting, you know, a business
for the first time with some key sections,

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such as, you know, what market came after,
what problem you listen to.

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So what is the solution?

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What is the here
the team who are the people

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that you've decided to convince
to join you in the journey yourself?

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It might be the co-founders
about how much you listen to

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raise about, you know, what,
what kind of numbers you're targeting.

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So you're looking to grow a big business.

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Are you're looking to grow medium
sized business

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or are you looking to grow a lifestyle
business?

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The majority of companies in the UK
lifestyle businesses,

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you know, think your local bar,
your your, your

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your your your, your shop owner,

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you know your

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all these all these businesses generally

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maybe family run or maybe the sole trader
was an entrepreneur.

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So there's,
you know a certain type of business

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that you might want to build you know
within these either a lifestyle medium

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or a big unicorn type company
like a Facebook or whatever.

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So you've got your documents in order.

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You've figured out what kind of business
that you're looking to build

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as a result of that.

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And then

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you might start looking at identifying
which investors might be relevant for you

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and those different investors,
that investor, different stages.

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If you're at the early stage,

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you might look for some early stage
venture capital funds.

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If you decide the business
you're looking to build

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is one of the bigger businesses
rather than the medium sized businesses,

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you might look to your network
and see if you know any within your family

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and friends
whether anyone there is able to invest.

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The UK offers very generous tax incentives
for early stage businesses.

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You know, you get you get 30%

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back as a UK taxpayer,
I'm telling me if you invest in companies

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and then if they end up failing,
you get a further 30% back

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and those percentages are even higher
for even earlier stage businesses.

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And so, you know, it's it's it's
the people that understand the ecosystem.

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If you're to raise money,

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it should be relatively straightforward
compared actively to other countries

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to find someone and to say, hey,
you can put in,

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you know, cash in the business
and you get income,

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you get cash back by the tax man,
which is a great win win.

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You get money
and the person gets money back.

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And so there's there's
a large industry to support you.

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So you find,
you know, the different types, investors,

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it might be these VCs,
it might be some of these tax funds,

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it might be family, might be friends,
it might be angel investors,

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and you might find them online generally,
there has been a movement in a shift

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towards much more open
conversations, a much higher code outreach

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metrics, i.e.

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because of the lack of diversity currently

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in the VC space across
both funds and angel investors.

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For individuals invest in startups,

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there's a there's been a trend towards
being more open

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in taking code inbounds
and taking applications.

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So if you if you find a VC that you like
and you go on the website,

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maybe one out of three
will have an application

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form for you to fill out, which means
you don't need to perform introduction.

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And VCs are quite happy
now shouting about the great ground

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they built in order
to generate these cold emails.

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And so if you're starting off,

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I wouldn't be too concerned,
especially for some of the Angel networks.

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I'm very open with with outreach.

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So you've got

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you've got your materials, you figured out
what kind of company you want to build.

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You identify investors,
you start reaching out to them

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and you start having conversations,
you know, first, second, third meetings.

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I think you've managed to persuade
some to invest in your business.

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You might then want to hire a lawyer, or

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if you a very early company, you might use
a platform like, say, legals,

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which provide lots of functionality
for you to be able to close your rounds.

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And you can choose the terms,
you can choose to touch that market,

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and then you can pool these investors
to invest in your company

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through that platform.

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And that's kind of that's kind of it.

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You can jump in the each different stage,
but ultimately you're trying to

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you are effectively you a sales person
when you're fundraising, you will instead

00:11:09:23 - 00:11:14:16
of selling the product, you're simply
selling shares in your company.

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And so the art of use, you know, selling,

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being prepared, identifying

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relevant potential buyers or investors
and then actually negotiating

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to get them involved
is pretty much the the way

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that the process works.

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And how how would someone

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go about

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setting the valuation of their company
when they're out?

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Is it is a supply and demand piece where,

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you know, that valuation might change
depending on how much interest you've got?

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Or is it based on the founder

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and the experience of the people
and the team?

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What factors would someone account for

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when you're thinking about the valuation,
when you when you're what?

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It's just that pre-seed
kind of idea type stage?

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I think that the the idea stage
and the pre-seed stage,

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if you're if you're considering valuation
is there's lots of complicated

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and scientific ways of thinking about it.

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But you know, as many people know,

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valuation is more of an arts
than a science.

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And often you can spend hours

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diving into
lots of different methodologies.

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But the most common
way of thinking about it

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is, is simply that you often get diluted

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between 10 to 20% per round,
and so you're offering 10 to 20% off

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of the business and you're

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therefore the range of valuation
is already

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approximated by the equity
that you're willing to give.

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And the other side of the equation
to get a valuation is of course

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the raise amount,

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and that is often a function of how much
money you need to get to the next stage.

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So if you plan that, you know,
you need half a million, a million to

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build the product
and to generate a bit of traction,

00:13:08:13 - 00:13:10:12
then you'll be raising
half the male 2 million.

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If you're raising a million
and you're giving away,

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you know, a fifth of business, then that
to evaluation, you know, the five six mark

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broadly, if you're raising half a million,

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same thing,
you setting your valuation in 2 to 3 mark.

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And so the best way of thinking about
valuation is simply how much you're

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looking to raise and your range
is how much you're expected to give.

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And if you're an angel,
you'd invest slightly

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less and receive slightly

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less state and if you're a VC or venture
capital fund,

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you might take, you know, 15, 20, 25%.

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And and what is an angel for people

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that are familiar with the terminology.

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Shows an angel often is a

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is an individual investor

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who might want to

00:14:01:19 - 00:14:04:03
invest some of their salary

00:14:04:03 - 00:14:08:02
or savings into early stage companies
because they

00:14:08:02 - 00:14:12:05
they might see the return to
they might want to benefit from a big exit

00:14:13:08 - 00:14:15:12
and be one of the early investors

00:14:15:12 - 00:14:17:18
or B, they might

00:14:17:18 - 00:14:20:19
simply have exited
and built a business themselves.

00:14:20:19 - 00:14:24:05
And therefore they might want to invest
in companies they know and understand.

00:14:24:21 - 00:14:28:10
So within the fintech space,
you know, one of the most active

00:14:28:11 - 00:14:31:11
angel investors is Monzo, a taxi.

00:14:31:20 - 00:14:34:21
He's now invested,
I think, one of the largest

00:14:34:21 - 00:14:37:22
number of companies
in the last couple of years.

00:14:38:00 - 00:14:42:15
And, you know, he's built his career
at Monza and he's decided now to start

00:14:42:19 - 00:14:45:12
angel investing or invest his own money

00:14:45:18 - 00:14:48:20
into those companies.

00:14:49:09 - 00:14:51:11
And can you can you talk through again,

00:14:52:05 - 00:14:54:15
it sounds like terminology in fundraising

00:14:55:23 - 00:14:59:22
or when we say can a Pre-Seed seed series
A, series B,

00:14:59:22 - 00:15:03:18
seriously and so on,
What are all those things mean?

00:15:04:12 - 00:15:04:21
Sure.

00:15:04:21 - 00:15:07:22
And they all mean
different things to people.

00:15:08:15 - 00:15:11:01
And the quantum is constantly changing.

00:15:11:11 - 00:15:15:09
However,
the basics remains the same that pre-seed

00:15:15:17 - 00:15:21:19
all companies and founders
who are yet to develop a product

00:15:24:00 - 00:15:26:05
and they've got an idea

00:15:26:17 - 00:15:32:03
and they're yet to build the technology
or the product that Pre-Seed seed is.

00:15:32:03 - 00:15:36:10
Typically when you've got your product
or your or your app

00:15:36:10 - 00:15:41:08
or whatever you're building and you're yet
to properly commercialize it.

00:15:41:19 - 00:15:44:18
So you have generated
lots of traction. Yes.

00:15:44:18 - 00:15:46:06
On the on the product.

00:15:46:06 - 00:15:49:04
And then you series A is
when you've got the product,

00:15:49:14 - 00:15:52:04
you've got some form of fit

00:15:52:04 - 00:15:54:22
with the market because you're starting
to generate customers

00:15:55:15 - 00:16:00:07
and you're looking to raise in order to
to to do more of the same.

00:16:00:20 - 00:16:03:02
You know, you've got your product,
you've got the market

00:16:03:02 - 00:16:06:15
and you've got some customers and
you put money in and then money comes out.

00:16:07:01 - 00:16:11:23
And then as you grow the alphabet,
it starts being much more about metrics.

00:16:12:06 - 00:16:13:12
So series B, for example,

00:16:13:12 - 00:16:16:00
you've got the product, it grows,
you've got customers, you're doing well.

00:16:16:10 - 00:16:20:09
Can you now down these KPIs
to make sure that you're growing

00:16:20:09 - 00:16:23:17
in the most efficient way,
you know, with the best team around you?

00:16:24:05 - 00:16:26:18
And so it starts being about the metrics

00:16:26:18 - 00:16:30:05
than the actual business,
but that's generally the way that it goes.

00:16:30:05 - 00:16:31:06
You know, you're find

00:16:31:06 - 00:16:34:20
the products, you've got, the product,
you find customers, you've got customers,

00:16:35:00 - 00:16:37:12
and then you're really kind of
scaling of those customers.

00:16:38:11 - 00:16:39:10
So let's talk about

00:16:39:10 - 00:16:42:18
your journey because you've gone
through this yourself, right?

00:16:42:18 - 00:16:46:12
You've started up your own company
and you've had to,

00:16:47:20 - 00:16:51:13
I suppose, dogfood your own advice
you've been giving over, over

00:16:51:13 - 00:16:53:16
the money is how did you

00:16:55:16 - 00:16:57:19
what did you think about when you

00:16:57:19 - 00:17:00:19
when you had the idea that you wanted
to go out on your own and do this?

00:17:01:04 - 00:17:04:16
And how did you approach risk and return?

00:17:04:16 - 00:17:06:06
Because it's all about risk and return
when you're

00:17:06:06 - 00:17:08:03
when you're
looking at these type of things.

00:17:08:03 - 00:17:11:14
What was what was your thinking process
and did you have a long term goal

00:17:11:14 - 00:17:16:04
or did it
organically just fall into this and evolve

00:17:16:04 - 00:17:19:19
into into starting up your own venture
funding business?

00:17:20:21 - 00:17:23:06
And so in terms of the business,

00:17:23:06 - 00:17:26:05
if I was going to think back about the,
you know, the documents and the

00:17:26:13 - 00:17:29:11
and the business profile of the business
I was to build,

00:17:30:02 - 00:17:33:04
it's very much a medium sized business.

00:17:33:06 - 00:17:35:07
So it's not a lifestyle
business. We're looking to grow

00:17:36:15 - 00:17:39:10
to grow year by year
and we have done in the last three years.

00:17:39:18 - 00:17:42:21
It's not going to be a unicorn uber
type business

00:17:42:21 - 00:17:48:02
because it's very heavy on the people side
and it's practically impossible

00:17:48:02 - 00:17:53:00
to build a scalable business
with people rather than technology.

00:17:53:20 - 00:17:56:01
So it's a kind of in the middle bucket of

00:17:56:01 - 00:17:59:03
a, you know, medium size,

00:17:59:03 - 00:18:01:06
relatively good growth company.

00:18:01:18 - 00:18:05:21
And as a result, we decided therefore
not to take venture capital funding

00:18:05:21 - 00:18:09:05
because we didn't
we weren't going to appeal to the investor

00:18:09:13 - 00:18:13:18
to, you know, the looks to invest in us,
although we've had a lot of interest

00:18:13:19 - 00:18:17:06
and appetite from investors
following especially following

00:18:17:06 - 00:18:19:22
some of the acquisitions in the space,
we want to invest.

00:18:19:22 - 00:18:21:12
But we didn't really
we didn't need the money.

00:18:21:12 - 00:18:26:02
We didn't have any desire to be controlled
or have any concerns

00:18:26:23 - 00:18:29:10
from someone else at the moment.

00:18:29:10 - 00:18:30:18
And so that's what we decided.

00:18:30:18 - 00:18:32:06
We didn't need venture capital funding.

00:18:32:06 - 00:18:34:11
We might we might have needed
it, might use,

00:18:34:17 - 00:18:38:06
you know, loans as an example,
if we're looking to expand.

00:18:38:06 - 00:18:42:23
But generally we're looking to grow in a
in a much more sustainable way.

00:18:44:07 - 00:18:45:05
And that's the business we

00:18:45:05 - 00:18:49:14
decided to go and grow into in terms
of how we went about doing it.

00:18:50:12 - 00:18:54:15
You know, although we had I've you know,
some of my first business at university

00:18:54:15 - 00:18:57:22
and I've always wanted
to build something of my own.

00:18:59:11 - 00:19:02:08
The the way that happened

00:19:02:11 - 00:19:06:10
is kind of quite a natural occurrence
that was, you know, less thinking more

00:19:06:23 - 00:19:10:20
as long as you're proactive, curious
and get involved

00:19:10:20 - 00:19:13:17
in different things, opportunities
normally can come to you.

00:19:14:08 - 00:19:16:19
And that's why I find, you know,
that's what we advise

00:19:16:19 - 00:19:20:18
when when a company joins an accelerator,
you actually tons of accelerators.

00:19:20:18 - 00:19:22:05
The more you put it
in, the more you get out

00:19:22:05 - 00:19:25:05
And that's Germany
that what seems to have occurred

00:19:25:05 - 00:19:28:23
throughout my career scenario curious
to get involved as much as possible

00:19:29:08 - 00:19:31:22
and then opportunities come to you
so you know when I

00:19:32:12 - 00:19:35:21
when I joined the innovation team and
started some of these programs, that was,

00:19:35:23 - 00:19:39:12
I think probably as a result of meeting
some people at a probably a tech startup,

00:19:39:15 - 00:19:41:13
drinks of some kind following up,

00:19:41:13 - 00:19:44:07
going to more of those kind of events
because that's what I was interested in

00:19:44:13 - 00:19:48:09
and that morphed
into into forming that team.

00:19:49:04 - 00:19:50:19
And so I think the

00:19:50:19 - 00:19:55:04
the advice I'd give from a fundraising
perspective in a career journey

00:19:55:04 - 00:19:59:11
is the more curious
you are, the more you know of a yes person

00:19:59:11 - 00:20:05:01
you can be, the more likely you are to
then find the area of interest.

00:20:05:15 - 00:20:08:11
And and for me, leaving Peter say

00:20:09:23 - 00:20:10:22
after just under ten

00:20:10:22 - 00:20:14:21
years of being there
seemed like a weird thing to do because

00:20:14:21 - 00:20:17:13
at the time I think I could see myself
staying at the long term.

00:20:18:19 - 00:20:22:07
But it was a so it was a factor of
a number of different, you know, aspects.

00:20:22:07 - 00:20:25:03
We we built a successful business
within the firm.

00:20:25:03 - 00:20:28:20
We were getting much more pressure
from various different stakeholders to,

00:20:29:16 - 00:20:31:06
you know, he wanted to,

00:20:31:06 - 00:20:35:08
you know, get involved a lot more politics
in the bank in a big firm.

00:20:35:08 - 00:20:37:04
Everyone wants to own own.

00:20:37:04 - 00:20:41:00
You feel if you're successful
and the compliance was getting it

00:20:41:00 - 00:20:45:18
all was getting on to having to you know
sometimes it took a couple of months

00:20:45:18 - 00:20:49:08
to actually engage
and work with companies as opposed to,

00:20:49:17 - 00:20:53:05
you know, now the 24 hours
it takes us to work with someone,

00:20:53:05 - 00:20:57:02
we're still regulated, so we've still got
a lot of compliance and KYC to do,

00:20:57:08 - 00:21:00:05
but we can be
much more, much more quickly.

00:21:01:09 - 00:21:01:14
And then

00:21:01:14 - 00:21:03:21
regarding, you know, taking the leap
and leaving,

00:21:05:00 - 00:21:07:09
you know, a fairly well-paid,

00:21:07:09 - 00:21:10:04
fairly cushioned job,

00:21:11:12 - 00:21:16:00
and I'm not sure why, but how when I'm

00:21:17:04 - 00:21:19:04
not sure why we did it at that time

00:21:19:04 - 00:21:22:04
or how we went about, you know, doing it.

00:21:22:08 - 00:21:25:02
I guess the way I had
six months of savings.

00:21:25:19 - 00:21:27:18
Was this around COVID as all.

00:21:27:18 - 00:21:30:17
It was yet just before COVID?

00:21:30:17 - 00:21:33:20
I think we decided,
I think for five months before

00:21:33:20 - 00:21:37:06
Kevin and months
and two months before COVID

00:21:38:13 - 00:21:41:07
and we'd saved six months.

00:21:41:07 - 00:21:44:00
And so I guess we had six months
to make it a success.

00:21:44:16 - 00:21:47:08
And fortunately we did,

00:21:47:08 - 00:21:50:11
despite the world falling apart in March.

00:21:52:22 - 00:21:53:23
Indeed,

00:21:55:21 - 00:21:58:03
one thing that I learned

00:21:58:03 - 00:22:02:21
when we did the BWC
raise program was and I hadn't

00:22:03:21 - 00:22:06:10
pretty thought about it as much,
but if you could talk through

00:22:06:20 - 00:22:10:19
when you talk about VCs,
VCs have to go out and raise money.

00:22:11:00 - 00:22:11:12
All right.

00:22:11:12 - 00:22:16:16
And and and they're raising money from,
you know, high net worth individuals,

00:22:16:21 - 00:22:20:10
other companies, pension
funds, the government of the bank.

00:22:20:10 - 00:22:24:18
So can you talk through the
the make up of that because that wasn't

00:22:24:18 - 00:22:28:13
something I was
you know I fully appreciated until

00:22:28:17 - 00:22:32:17
I think you kind of lifted up the rock
and could see what was under there.

00:22:33:09 - 00:22:37:13
Yeah that's what was my
my favorite workshop actually to get lucky

00:22:39:00 - 00:22:43:20
it I guess, made an impact
in understanding how they think

00:22:44:02 - 00:22:48:21
because I think that's the most important
aspect of fundraising and selling.

00:22:49:01 - 00:22:50:21
I think if we
if we talk about selling in general

00:22:50:21 - 00:22:52:09
because,
you know, that's well, fundraising is

00:22:53:11 - 00:22:55:20
understanding the buyer

00:22:55:20 - 00:22:57:23
is probably one of the most important

00:23:00:00 - 00:23:02:14
things to to to to consider

00:23:02:19 - 00:23:05:02
when you're you're in the market

00:23:06:07 - 00:23:08:12
and you know a poor salesman is

00:23:08:12 - 00:23:11:13
or salesperson
is one who doesn't understand the buy in.

00:23:11:13 - 00:23:15:07
I think, you know, everyone can relate
to being sold something they don't need

00:23:16:01 - 00:23:18:00
or they don't want.

00:23:18:07 - 00:23:20:08
And the same is applied to fundraising.

00:23:20:10 - 00:23:24:16
If you can understand the type of investor
or lender you're speaking to,

00:23:25:19 - 00:23:28:06
how they operate,
it makes you in a much stronger

00:23:28:06 - 00:23:31:08
position to actually sell what they want.

00:23:31:18 - 00:23:34:05
And within the spectrum
of funding options,

00:23:34:13 - 00:23:38:06
there's a multitude number
of different types of investors.

00:23:38:14 - 00:23:41:08
You know, the tax efficient investors
I mentioned before, where they had

00:23:41:08 - 00:23:44:18
the tax break,
they didn't work at all like the VC funds

00:23:44:18 - 00:23:47:01
because they need much lower return
profiles.

00:23:47:11 - 00:23:48:12
The Angel investors

00:23:48:12 - 00:23:51:10
don't work at all like the VCs
because that is their own capital.

00:23:51:19 - 00:23:54:10
They're investing their own money
into these companies

00:23:54:16 - 00:23:57:02
and therefore the process,
you know what process?

00:23:57:07 - 00:24:01:08
There isn't a well defined
institutional rigor in their assessment.

00:24:01:09 - 00:24:03:08
You know, they might meet you,
they like you, you know,

00:24:03:08 - 00:24:06:14
here's the money with a bit of diligence
and a bit of legal homework.

00:24:07:13 - 00:24:10:04
But the VCs in the traditional sense,
which, you know,

00:24:10:04 - 00:24:15:06
is the kind of sexy industry in London
and what a lot of London is known for

00:24:16:02 - 00:24:20:06
is built upon a concept of managing
someone else's money.

00:24:20:19 - 00:24:23:13
And so VCs and although they appear,

00:24:23:23 - 00:24:24:19
you know,

00:24:26:13 - 00:24:29:06
scary or they might appear

00:24:30:12 - 00:24:32:08
like they've got over

00:24:32:08 - 00:24:34:15
all the power, they're just middlemen.

00:24:35:03 - 00:24:36:20
They have no power at all.

00:24:36:20 - 00:24:41:02
They're simply taking someone else's
capital and putting it to use.

00:24:41:21 - 00:24:44:22
And, you know, very different
to the family offices and very different.

00:24:44:22 - 00:24:46:10
So the corporates.

00:24:46:13 - 00:24:48:16
And so understanding that

00:24:48:23 - 00:24:51:00
the person that you're pitching to

00:24:51:18 - 00:24:53:23
isn't that to invest their own money,

00:24:55:00 - 00:24:58:07
they're there to invest someone else's
money leads you down this kind of avenue

00:24:58:07 - 00:25:02:16
of realizing why you need to produce
this set of documents, realizing

00:25:02:16 - 00:25:05:20
why you need to produce a five year model,
realizing why you need a business plan.

00:25:06:05 - 00:25:07:19
It's not because they need one.

00:25:07:19 - 00:25:09:03
It's because they need to come back.

00:25:09:03 - 00:25:11:17
If you end up failing because they need to
say, Oh, you know, I met Matthew.

00:25:11:17 - 00:25:14:07
He was a great business
and hey, all the things he told me

00:25:14:07 - 00:25:16:23
and therefore I don't want to lose my job
because I did all the right things

00:25:16:23 - 00:25:21:12
and I diligence and you know, it's
called the duty to your investors

00:25:21:12 - 00:25:24:22
or your limited partners
who are the name given to these investors.

00:25:25:04 - 00:25:27:12
And that's how the industry operates.

00:25:27:23 - 00:25:30:13
And so once you understand
that, you understand that

00:25:31:13 - 00:25:33:17
you empathize more with someone asking you

00:25:33:21 - 00:25:37:03
for these documents instead of saying,
oh, why do I need to give all this stuff?

00:25:37:03 - 00:25:38:11
Why is only to waste my time?

00:25:38:11 - 00:25:41:00
You start thinking, okay, okay,
they're simply there

00:25:41:06 - 00:25:44:05
to persuade someone else
to make the decision.

00:25:44:23 - 00:25:46:11
And it seems you have that mentality.

00:25:46:11 - 00:25:48:20
You start realizing
that your job as an entrepreneur

00:25:49:02 - 00:25:51:08
is to make their lives
as easy as possible.

00:25:51:08 - 00:25:54:22
And that's why documentation, preparation,
all these things are vitally important

00:25:55:06 - 00:25:58:07
because it's not about you selling them,
it's about them

00:25:58:07 - 00:26:01:11
selling you internally
and the conversations carries on.

00:26:01:14 - 00:26:03:18
So that's one large, you know,

00:26:04:19 - 00:26:10:04
aspect that is fundamental to
the fundraising process is understanding

00:26:10:04 - 00:26:13:06
who you're dealing with and understanding
that you're not dealing

00:26:13:06 - 00:26:15:17
with an individual,
you're dealing with an organization.

00:26:16:04 - 00:26:19:02
The second angle, which I mentioned
you also referring

00:26:19:02 - 00:26:22:14
to, is the understanding that they are
also in the same position, i.e.

00:26:22:14 - 00:26:25:13
they are also fundraising from,
you know, its partners.

00:26:25:23 - 00:26:28:17
And and what we like to tell founders

00:26:28:17 - 00:26:32:12
is how fortunate
they are compared to their funds, because,

00:26:32:19 - 00:26:35:19
you know, a typical startup
fundraise might be 3 to 9 months,

00:26:36:15 - 00:26:38:18
a typical VC fundraise
would be 2 to 3 years.

00:26:39:21 - 00:26:41:08
And not only that,

00:26:41:08 - 00:26:44:23
the population of investors
as you go up the food chain shrinks.

00:26:45:04 - 00:26:46:19
So you can imagine like a pyramid,

00:26:46:19 - 00:26:50:17
the very bottom, the entrepreneurs,
you can access everyone above you,

00:26:51:07 - 00:26:55:01
you can access the government, the funds,
the public offices, the corporates,

00:26:55:09 - 00:26:59:12
all these individuals
that are there to support the ecosystem.

00:26:59:20 - 00:27:02:15
And these go up and up and up.

00:27:02:15 - 00:27:05:14
You have fewer and fewer options
to raise from it.

00:27:05:14 - 00:27:08:11
So if your population
is the founders 100%,

00:27:08:21 - 00:27:10:23
your population is A, B, C is maybe 10%.

00:27:11:15 - 00:27:12:20
And why is it something more?

00:27:12:20 - 00:27:17:11
It's because,
you know, VCs are there to be built

00:27:17:11 - 00:27:21:16
to invest in entrepreneurs, whereas,
you know, family offices and,

00:27:21:23 - 00:27:25:09
you know, if you were investing in a
it funds your own personal wealth.

00:27:26:00 - 00:27:29:21
You are built to invest in funds,
you are built to invest in,

00:27:30:09 - 00:27:33:01
you know, anything you, you know,
you are there to probably build

00:27:33:01 - 00:27:35:06
a business and,
you know, to do your day job.

00:27:36:01 - 00:27:40:02
And so VCs are pitching
to a much smaller pool of individuals.

00:27:40:09 - 00:27:44:20
And so as a result, they've got the exact
same fundraising process that you do.

00:27:46:05 - 00:27:46:22
And how

00:27:46:22 - 00:27:51:00
does the lifecycle of a fund work?

00:27:51:00 - 00:27:52:05
Because you said it might take two

00:27:52:05 - 00:27:56:15
or three years to to raise money
to be anything from a few million

00:27:56:15 - 00:28:00:12
pound for a very small
fund up to billions for for for big funds.

00:28:00:23 - 00:28:06:02
How how how does the the world of X

00:28:06:02 - 00:28:10:13
then judged on by their investors
for that fund.

00:28:10:16 - 00:28:13:21
You know does they have a cut off time
you hear this term you know

00:28:13:22 - 00:28:17:10
kind of dry powder
and yeah lots of money to deploy.

00:28:19:01 - 00:28:20:13
Can you talk through that?

00:28:20:13 - 00:28:23:17
Yeah, I mean the the VCs,
much like the entrepreneurs,

00:28:24:02 - 00:28:28:14
have the exact same issue to deal with,
except the population of investors

00:28:28:14 - 00:28:29:07
is smaller.

00:28:29:07 - 00:28:32:22
And so everything we talk about,
the preparation, the profile,

00:28:33:05 - 00:28:36:07
understanding how they think, you know,
how some office thinks is very different,

00:28:36:07 - 00:28:38:13
how it government
thinks government is taxpayer money.

00:28:39:04 - 00:28:45:02
The biggest
the biggest owner of startups in Europe

00:28:45:02 - 00:28:50:01
are US taxpayer because we pay taxes.

00:28:50:01 - 00:28:53:16
But, you know, if you even if you don't
have a business, you pay VAT of whatever.

00:28:54:16 - 00:28:55:17
In Europe,

00:28:55:17 - 00:28:59:21
you pay taxes, government
takes it, taxes it, and spends on things.

00:28:59:21 - 00:29:02:11
Some of those things include funds

00:29:03:12 - 00:29:06:09
into a pot of money,
that pot money goes into phones

00:29:06:09 - 00:29:08:11
and that those funds go into startups.

00:29:08:11 - 00:29:11:10
And so if I'm pitching the government,
I'm pitching a very different proposition

00:29:11:16 - 00:29:13:16
as if I'm pitching into an individual.

00:29:13:16 - 00:29:17:00
And so the exact same process
applies is just the difficulty

00:29:17:00 - 00:29:20:00
is 3 to 5 times as hot.

00:29:21:20 - 00:29:25:11
And in terms of the lifecycle, you know,
they have a divestment,

00:29:25:12 - 00:29:28:13
an investment period of three years,
they race for couple of years,

00:29:28:13 - 00:29:30:07
they invest over two, three years

00:29:30:07 - 00:29:33:12
that they look at look to divest
and look to manage their portfolio

00:29:33:22 - 00:29:37:05
through, you know, helping access
maybe IPO, maybe trade sales.

00:29:37:16 - 00:29:40:05
And so the the when you speak to them
within

00:29:40:05 - 00:29:42:15
that process is critically important
because if you're speaking to them

00:29:42:15 - 00:29:46:06
at the end of the deployment process,
you won't be one in a thousand companies

00:29:46:06 - 00:29:48:17
they invest in
as opposed to one in 100 companies.

00:29:49:06 - 00:29:52:18
And so later on in the process,
you're speaking to, the more difficult

00:29:53:00 - 00:29:54:12
it is to actually receive funding.

00:29:54:12 - 00:29:58:09
And then you've got the added complexity
of multiple funds within the same

00:29:59:00 - 00:30:01:19
within the same entity
across different years.

00:30:01:19 - 00:30:04:06
And in terms of,
you know, process to raise the next one,

00:30:05:00 - 00:30:09:20
the first fund is easy or easy ish
in the sense that everything's relative.

00:30:09:20 - 00:30:14:18
You know, it's pretty hard work to race,
but it's easier than the next few.

00:30:14:18 - 00:30:16:22
So the first one is relatively easy.

00:30:17:05 - 00:30:18:20
The second one is relatively easy.

00:30:18:20 - 00:30:21:01
She got the relationships
already from the first.

00:30:21:01 - 00:30:25:13
The third one is practically impossible
because by the time that you're raising

00:30:25:14 - 00:30:30:04
a third one, seven or eight years
in, if you haven't had any big exits,

00:30:30:20 - 00:30:32:23
then there's nothing for you to hide
behind.

00:30:32:23 - 00:30:35:07
Whereas in the first one you can say
we are going to be great.

00:30:35:22 - 00:30:38:03
And the second one you can say,
we have been great

00:30:38:08 - 00:30:41:05
because you can see
all these high valuations.

00:30:41:11 - 00:30:44:01
The third one,
you have to you have to actually show

00:30:45:01 - 00:30:48:07
cash returns, which are difficult to find.

00:30:48:16 - 00:30:49:04
Yeah.

00:30:50:06 - 00:30:52:23
So, so this is a work in fintech podcast.

00:30:52:23 - 00:30:55:04
So can we touch briefly on fintech?

00:30:55:13 - 00:30:59:08
You know, the UK is a global
leader, has been for a long time, but

00:30:59:08 - 00:31:02:08
I think the crown is beginning to slip,
if not a slip already.

00:31:02:18 - 00:31:07:01
And can you talk about
why fintech is so established in the UK

00:31:07:10 - 00:31:10:06
and the you know, we've seen

00:31:10:06 - 00:31:14:04
some big funding rounds for fintechs
in the UK, you know, all the way

00:31:14:04 - 00:31:17:02
up to the top where you have launched
your revolution and your Monzo is

00:31:17:20 - 00:31:18:21
can you talk through the

00:31:18:21 - 00:31:22:17
kind of the ecosystem and the environment
and what funding looks like

00:31:22:17 - 00:31:26:13
and the kind of magnitude and quantum
of what we're seeing here in the UK?

00:31:28:13 - 00:31:30:16
Yes, I think about it.

00:31:30:20 - 00:31:34:12
Why why is why
we are such a good fintech nation,

00:31:34:12 - 00:31:40:04
Probably because, oh, London is,
I think, you know, a lot of the world,

00:31:40:04 - 00:31:44:00
but London particular is strong
in professional services, i.e.

00:31:44:00 - 00:31:47:00
people and people on people
rather than just tech.

00:31:47:18 - 00:31:50:11
And as a result
of the professional service industry,

00:31:50:21 - 00:31:53:13
you know,
that goes towards where the money is

00:31:53:13 - 00:31:56:20
and the money Germany is within
financial services and so you end up with

00:31:56:20 - 00:32:00:08
a strong professional services
within the financial services industry

00:32:00:20 - 00:32:04:04
that there needs to,
you know, breed of new entrepreneurs

00:32:04:04 - 00:32:09:12
who are leaving the big banks
and building better startups with that

00:32:09:13 - 00:32:12:03
better technology, knowing
all the problems of the pain points.

00:32:12:12 - 00:32:17:03
Let's see how big industry with lots
of issues that you know still you know

00:32:19:06 - 00:32:22:03
great
relatively you then have all these people

00:32:22:14 - 00:32:25:11
coming out of those organizations
wanting to make things better.

00:32:25:14 - 00:32:27:23
And that's how a lot of the challenger
banks were born.

00:32:27:23 - 00:32:31:19
And then within that section, you
then have all these various different

00:32:32:06 - 00:32:34:20
spin out when the between

00:32:34:20 - 00:32:37:22
the successful companies exit
or when people leave.

00:32:38:06 - 00:32:40:23
And so you have this this this fantastic

00:32:42:14 - 00:32:46:16
increase of talent
from some as organizations grow

00:32:46:16 - 00:32:50:14
and as organizations exert, much like
you have in America with the likes

00:32:50:14 - 00:32:53:20
of some of the early Microsoft
and Amazon and,

00:32:54:15 - 00:32:57:18
you know, various different mafias

00:32:57:18 - 00:33:00:20
and the US has a lot of mafia,
the UK mafia,

00:33:02:02 - 00:33:04:04
which I think there's

00:33:04:04 - 00:33:08:03
some chance in the US that if you look at
I think a couple of companies

00:33:08:08 - 00:33:12:00
and you draw these diagrams
of what people have gone through,

00:33:12:02 - 00:33:13:19
you know, two or three companies represent

00:33:15:00 - 00:33:15:10
over a

00:33:15:10 - 00:33:19:07
third of some of the unicorns
in terms of ex-employees or what have you.

00:33:19:09 - 00:33:23:22
And that's what kind of happens
with the FSA sector in London.

00:33:24:02 - 00:33:24:21
So that's one of the reasons.

00:33:24:21 - 00:33:27:12
I think the second reason
is the regulatory burden.

00:33:27:23 - 00:33:31:19
That is, you know, the regulators
are some of the best in Europe

00:33:31:19 - 00:33:35:03
and therefore UK
seem to be setting the bar

00:33:35:22 - 00:33:38:01
and that applies across
lots of industries.

00:33:39:23 - 00:33:42:12
And then, you know, the reason
why it might be different

00:33:42:12 - 00:33:45:00
now is because of Brexit
and passporting issues.

00:33:45:00 - 00:33:46:23
And so

00:33:47:01 - 00:33:50:13
these all these other issues
that might have

00:33:50:15 - 00:33:55:12
may made it less likely for it
to continue its longstanding lead.

00:33:55:20 - 00:33:59:23
But I suspect you know, that it's
not going to close overnight and London

00:33:59:23 - 00:34:04:19
is going to continue being a world leader
within within that within that space.

00:34:05:13 - 00:34:07:22
In terms of,
you know, numbers and deal volume,

00:34:07:22 - 00:34:11:09
it certainly represents the largest sector
in the last decade.

00:34:12:02 - 00:34:14:11
In the last couple of years,
there's been a lot of fads.

00:34:14:11 - 00:34:18:06
The Web 3.8 fads, the crypto fast
alcohol fads and now the

00:34:18:15 - 00:34:22:20
the open eye fads
and all of these sectors are popping up.

00:34:23:02 - 00:34:24:23
post-COVID,
of course, you had health care,

00:34:24:23 - 00:34:27:15
so you've got these very sectors,
you know, coming on.

00:34:27:15 - 00:34:31:08
But over the last decade, fintechs
definitely been the the most significant

00:34:31:16 - 00:34:33:07
investment area for

00:34:34:17 - 00:34:35:23
for companies.

00:34:36:03 - 00:34:39:14
And if you're building a fintech,
you know, the number of fintech within,

00:34:39:14 - 00:34:42:07
you know, B2B investors
is probably the biggest pool

00:34:43:18 - 00:34:45:00
any given time.

00:34:45:00 - 00:34:48:02
And so your
your certainly have a large population

00:34:48:02 - 00:34:51:12
of hungry investors.

00:34:52:03 - 00:34:54:12
So so to wrap up

00:34:54:15 - 00:34:56:10
in terms of people who are kind

00:34:56:10 - 00:34:59:08
of listening to listening to this
and might be thinking of,

00:34:59:21 - 00:35:02:21
you know, having an idea for a business
and give explains

00:35:03:18 - 00:35:06:22
kind of in detail some of the steps
and the processes and so on

00:35:07:17 - 00:35:10:17
in terms of some of the skills that people

00:35:10:17 - 00:35:14:04
kind of soft skills that people
can can work on in the meantime.

00:35:14:13 - 00:35:20:14
Are you spoken about when you were working
on the data side, an audit?

00:35:20:15 - 00:35:24:00
I can see when you very first started in
you appreciated that

00:35:24:08 - 00:35:29:06
actually audit is
is is going to get automated so having the

00:35:30:05 - 00:35:32:22
having the thought
process and the foresight to kind of think

00:35:33:02 - 00:35:35:16
further forward and how it's
going to impact what you're doing today.

00:35:36:01 - 00:35:40:15
And then you spoke about how curiosity
is super important

00:35:40:23 - 00:35:46:05
and passion and curiosity
and for learning and increasing a surface

00:35:46:05 - 00:35:50:05
area of your network,
the people that you meet, the idea

00:35:50:05 - 00:35:53:14
is that you have
the things that you read is all going to,

00:35:54:00 - 00:35:57:09
you know, incrementally
build up your knowledge and your network

00:35:57:09 - 00:36:01:04
and the people that you know,
Is there any other not a good words

00:36:01:04 - 00:36:05:17
of advice to young people in general
who are just starting a career

00:36:06:01 - 00:36:09:04
and and things related to kind of funding

00:36:09:04 - 00:36:11:00
and business ideas?

00:36:13:11 - 00:36:15:07
I think, you know, not having a ground

00:36:15:07 - 00:36:19:01
plan is certainly a good one
because the world moves so quickly.

00:36:19:14 - 00:36:22:19
But then having a well-trodden path is

00:36:25:02 - 00:36:27:16
an unlikely optimal strategy.

00:36:27:16 - 00:36:31:04
I think being open, embracing
what's around you and constantly learning

00:36:31:04 - 00:36:34:22
and evolving
is a much better path to take.

00:36:35:17 - 00:36:38:19
I think you can curiosity and drive can

00:36:39:20 - 00:36:42:00
provide sufficient

00:36:43:12 - 00:36:44:18
risk minimization

00:36:44:18 - 00:36:48:00
to make your,
you know, your career successful.

00:36:48:19 - 00:36:52:19
I'm in the very fortunate position
that I and you work for a living.

00:36:52:20 - 00:36:55:07
I just, you know, I do find joy.

00:36:56:04 - 00:36:57:22
And so I'm happy to,

00:36:57:22 - 00:37:01:19
you know, when we speak to clients, happy
to speak to them any time of day,

00:37:01:19 - 00:37:05:06
bid know evenings, weekends,
because for me, it's not work.

00:37:05:06 - 00:37:08:19
It's just a just a know, fun pastime.

00:37:09:04 - 00:37:11:13
And if you can be
in that privileged position,

00:37:12:02 - 00:37:16:14
that explains, I think, the reason why
a lot of the most successful

00:37:16:14 - 00:37:19:19
entrepreneurs are successful
because they can,

00:37:20:16 - 00:37:25:04
you know, work around the clock
because they do this work.

00:37:26:00 - 00:37:28:10
You know, that's how

00:37:29:08 - 00:37:34:11
and I think that's
why a lot of the in lot of companies

00:37:34:14 - 00:37:39:03
and a lot of people find it difficult
to, you know, split work life balance.

00:37:39:12 - 00:37:42:12
That's ultimately
because they're not enjoying the work bit

00:37:44:06 - 00:37:45:12
and it's not for everyone.

00:37:45:12 - 00:37:46:12
But if you're going to be building

00:37:46:12 - 00:37:48:18
a company,
it takes a lot of time and effort.

00:37:48:18 - 00:37:52:18
And so, you know, if I was thinking about,
well, single piece of advice,

00:37:52:19 - 00:37:57:02
it would be do something
that you enjoy doing.

00:37:58:01 - 00:38:02:00
And especially when you're young,
try and experience

00:38:02:00 - 00:38:06:17
lots of different things for you
to figure out what it is you enjoy doing.

00:38:07:15 - 00:38:08:18
And that's why I did it.

00:38:08:18 - 00:38:11:08
Peter
I worked at least five different teams

00:38:12:07 - 00:38:16:12
and specifically
since I started within the first year,

00:38:17:08 - 00:38:22:06
the first thing I did was make friends
with all the resource allocation staff

00:38:22:12 - 00:38:26:08
so that I could be
on as many different things as possible

00:38:26:18 - 00:38:30:07
rather than simply, you know,
a lot of my friends ended up working

00:38:30:07 - 00:38:34:05
with on one company for three years
and I couldn't think of anything worse

00:38:34:19 - 00:38:38:16
than joining a company
which provides you experience

00:38:38:16 - 00:38:41:09
working with different companies,
with only doing one thing.

00:38:41:21 - 00:38:45:12
And so you know the following
your follow your passion,

00:38:46:13 - 00:38:48:22
following where you want to work.

00:38:48:22 - 00:38:53:12
That can only happen
if you allow yourself to be involved

00:38:53:16 - 00:38:56:12
and experience different

00:38:56:12 - 00:38:59:18
work streams, because otherwise, you know
you don't know what you enjoy

00:39:00:01 - 00:39:03:11
and then regarding the future,
I think it's clear where things are.

00:39:03:13 - 00:39:04:18
You know, things are going.

00:39:04:18 - 00:39:08:19
Technology is going to be ever
increasing and say,

00:39:08:19 - 00:39:12:11
if you were going to think about AM
in a way

00:39:12:11 - 00:39:15:04
of a sector of something that is

00:39:16:05 - 00:39:18:23
that you're interested
in, if it uses technology

00:39:19:17 - 00:39:23:16
and, there's
an aspect of relationship in that,

00:39:24:02 - 00:39:26:17
then it's likely that you know,
you're going to succeed

00:39:27:07 - 00:39:30:00
because relationships, human
to human relationships

00:39:30:05 - 00:39:33:18
aren't going anywhere
and technology isn't going to go anywhere.

00:39:33:18 - 00:39:37:07
So if you can combine the two,
you know, you you are ready for success.

00:39:38:13 - 00:39:41:01
So, Jonathan,
how can people get in contact with you

00:39:41:01 - 00:39:44:00
or learn about some of the resources
that you've mentioned?

00:39:44:22 - 00:39:45:05
Sure.

00:39:45:05 - 00:39:49:04
So, you know, I was always happy
to respond to any any emails.

00:39:49:19 - 00:39:52:18
And, you know, it's not a automated email

00:39:54:19 - 00:39:56:08
I'm on John for that matter.

00:39:56:08 - 00:39:57:02
Ventures dot com.

00:39:57:02 - 00:40:00:18
You can drop me a note
or you can look at our website and

00:40:01:09 - 00:40:04:01
you know, I mentioned at the start
that our mission

00:40:04:01 - 00:40:08:13
was to optimize the fundraising process
for founders and for funds.

00:40:08:18 - 00:40:12:21
And unfortunately, given that, you know,
we're still a people based business,

00:40:13:08 - 00:40:14:11
we can't work with everyone.

00:40:14:11 - 00:40:17:11
We only work with a very small number
of companies we speak to every month.

00:40:18:02 - 00:40:22:01
So in order to cater for that,
we publish a lot of information

00:40:22:01 - 00:40:23:23
on our websites in order to give others

00:40:23:23 - 00:40:27:17
the tools and the know how
and the best of lists to do it themselves.

00:40:28:00 - 00:40:30:23
So even though we might not
support them formally, hopefully

00:40:30:23 - 00:40:34:02
they're going to be in a better position
to actually access those tools.

00:40:34:02 - 00:40:38:18
And so you can find pitch deck templates,
you can find our latest term XI report,

00:40:39:02 - 00:40:42:12
which analyzed terms
from 200 different funds.

00:40:42:15 - 00:40:44:12
We publish them,
analyze them, summarize them.

00:40:44:12 - 00:40:47:08
So if you raising
and you look at our terms, you can go, oh,

00:40:47:13 - 00:40:50:09
actually, you know, this time,
as the market increased in value

00:40:50:10 - 00:40:54:15
or is actually this time isn't market
this time is can I negotiate

00:40:55:06 - 00:40:58:22
based on what I've seen so you can find
all those resources on our website?

00:41:00:05 - 00:41:00:19
Fantastic.

00:41:00:19 - 00:41:03:03
Jonathan,
thank you for your time. Pleasure.