Matthew Cheung (00:04):
Hi, I'm Matt, founder of Work in Fintech. I'm also CEO of a FinTech firm called ipushpull and co-founder of another FinTech called newsquawk. And what we want to do in these episodes is teach you all about FinTech. So today I'm joined by Helene Lipp who's just finished a Master's at Bath University, and I'm also joined by Chris Scott who works at TP ICAP.
Helene Lipp (00:30):
Hi, Chris. It's nice having you here before we jump into FinTech, could you just explain what you do, who you work for and how does that intersect with FinTech?
Chris Scott (00:40):
Hi Matt, hi Helene. Thanks for having me. I run product and delivery for the equities next to derivatives team at TPI cap. What it means in reality is I spend half of my time working with the senior stakeholders in the front office and commercial areas, figuring out kind of where we're looking to invest, what opportunities exist in the market and the other half of my time actually delivering those with a combination of business analysts, product owners, developers, testers, and so on.
Helene Lipp (01:10):
Could you just explain what product management is for our listeners and why it is important in FinTech?
Chris Scott (01:17):
Sure. I think product management is quite a wide use term to cover a multitude of things. And it very greatly depends on which company you're at as to exactly what product management is or can be. A lot of companies view it is a very kind of technical role, a lot of companies see it as a more client facing market research type role. And across the spectrum, you get a combination of roles that appear. You can put marketing management versus outright product management, but ultimately the purpose of product management is to ensure value owner for what you're doing and what you're trying to deliver. Some of that is a bit more in the weeds than the kind of commercial decision makers, but some of us do at the end of the day, looking at what value we're delivering, what are we actually trying to achieve with this project or with this thing you're trying to create.
In technology and in finance, a lot of the things we're doing are replacing the current systems and processes we have in place. How do we automate those? But all of those systems and processes were built and were put in place for a reason. We'd arrive as a firm and our client's drivers as firms' value from all of those processes. So, if we're not focused on what we were doing in the first place and why we were doing that, ultimately you can end up with a product that doesn't actually solve a problem for your client or stop solving the problem that you were solving for originally. And the second you start doing that, you lose value, you lose customers and ultimately give your competitors an edge that they didn't have another kind of forward-looking things as well. You've got to understand exactly why and how markets evolve to where they got to and why your plants are operating and what they need, what problems do they have. And again, it comes down to solving and adding value by solving those problems.
Helene Lipp (02:51):
You mentioned a very important key word, which is technology and technology and automation is now very fundamental to financial markets. Could you just explain in your opinion why it is so important and why students and graduates should embrace it in their career choices?
Chris Scott (03:08):
There are two big elements that I see that technology really adds value in the really important things. And they don't really kind of necessarily come naturally. The first is obviously scale and it's not limited to finance, but ultimately if you don't have the technology, it's very hard to scale any kind of process or any kind of operation you have. If you can digitize something, you can do it again. And again, it, again, your cost per process is very cheap and it makes you able to perform that operation thousands of times a day an hour.
The second is reliability, any kind of process or anything that you do manually inherently has a level of risk of human error in it. And we pass data around at such high rates in trying to achieve what we're trying to do with kind of some kind of execution strategy on an exchange with any kind of post-trade service in finance. You're passing a huge amount of data around, and any time you get that wrong, you cause a misalignment of risk between what the client thinks they've traded and what they know in their risk profile, or you try and assess or something incorrectly. And it costs money every time you make a mistake. And when it comes down to technology, it's about the reliability. It's about being able to do that process and that same function again and again and again, in a very, very error-free manner.
Helene Lipp (04:24):
When you look at, because you mentioned the keywords and scale and liability, how do you see this? Especially the technology in these terms affecting brokers and trading technology in the next 5, 10 or even 20 years?
Chris Scott (04:39):
I think you've certainly seen a lot of firms hire a very different kind of person in the past decade or so. They've moved away from people or kind of huge banks of traders. So, a very few or select number of traders backed up by kind of huge armies of developers, of testers, business analysts there to achieve that grain. They know that the way the kind of market structures worked, played out over time to act as in an operate, it's become a speed race in many instances. So, you have to go faster and faster and faster. And it's less about trading strategies is that there's a lot of technology around to help people refine those and let individual and the best and brightest individual traders' scale. Again, they can test multiple strategies very easily with the kind of caliber of people that they build around as a team.
Helene Lipp (05:27):
Is this also what excites you mostly about your role and also working in product management, the pace or also other factors?
Chris Scott (05:36):
I find that I've always been very interested in kind of how do we change the world. How do we make things better? How do we improve things? How do we drive and how do we compete? How do we come up with a new idea to transform a market? How do we come up with an idea to kind of steal market share from a competitor? So, I find being in product management and the kind of combination of working on those ideas and the opportunities to, to discover them and find them as well as implement them, it's quite a good balance and quite an exciting thing.
I don't ever feel like I'm actually getting up to do a kind of nine to five job where you've got to grind through it. And it's the same thing day to day. It, every kind of few months when I'm working on changes fairly drastically, like in the past few months, I've been focused on the kind of trading side of the world. And in the next few months, we're looking at kind of how do we employ chatbots to automate a lot of the kind of core functionality that and requests we get through for our clients. I find it pretty exciting to see that kind of change day to day. And it's a career that if you are creative, if you're client focused in trying to look for problems to solve, you can drive a lot of value in an interest from.
Helene Lipp (06:34):
Thank you for your answer. I think a lot of us, are very interested in product management. So for me, it's interesting to know if this career path, which really led to product management at ICAP was planned or did you fall into it accidentally?
Chris Scott (06:51):
Yes, I guess it was a happy accident looking back. I got into TP ICAP. It didn't manage to make to university as kind of my original plan. So, I started in one of the desks as a junior. I just saw an advert online that was about running and grabbing lunches and, and delivering local parcels and booking trades. And I thought, well, I've got to start somewhere and got into the industry that way didn't really properly grasp quite the scale of the business or the operational or how it all works in front of.
There was a young guy on a desk it's quite a wild environment. It was something akin to the Wolf of wall street. When I started that has changed radically in the past kind of 13 or 14 years. And being a broker is a very hard thing to do because you've got to sit there and do the same thing day to day.
And you've got to coerce your clients into giving you business. And you've got to be a very, very relentless kind of sales person. And I was sitting there on the desk, go into my boss. What am I, if we do it this way? Or why don't we try that? Or why don't we get this bit of technology when we go and purchase this product that can make us better as a firm and without even meaning to, I've got to shop broking, but what he was doing that was constant nagging how do we change things sort of point. And they said, look, get off the desk, go and take this guy who does what I kind of business development stuff and sit, we can come up with. And they just kind of gave me a shot, call me business analyst, this guy gave me an opportunity to go and look at a couple of problems that I've said about and wanted to go and fix. And one of the problems I worked on, I managed to come up with a decent solution for it. And they gave me the gig and said, right, carry on. But it was certainly not planned. I had eyes on like when I first joined, get on the desk, get on the phones, become a broker. It was a very different career path in the end.
Helene Lipp (08:34):
You have worked at very different roles at ICAP for example, as a broker, but also as a business analyst. And then ultimately as a product manager, how did you approach learning new skills in each different area and what transferable skills were there across each role you could use?
Chris Scott (08:52):
The trans-side of things comes down to kind of the problem solving. I'm always looking at what are the problems out there, how to try and fix them. I'm actually, I guess I've got creativity and that helps a lot when you're talking to clients, when you're looking at, you have to go from either looking at big set of data and figuring out what the numbers look like from evaluation of opportunity to what actually let's sit down with some developers and talk about how we're going to implement it. And each time I've moved role it's, I've spent time naturally building kind of more technical skills and how to interrogate data. How do I get access to great data. In the more recent years I spent more time figuring out how do I better structure and position arguments for investment because ultimately spend a lot of time and it's very, just kind of great ideas, but some of the good ideas you had in the past and some of the things that I'm kind of most gutted that we never did, where empowered to it's kind of my failure to really convince the people around it, above me to invest or back the idea.
Helene Lipp (09:46):
You mentioned a very important keyword, which is skills. For example, if I were a student who wants to work in a product management role in a financial technology firm, what hard skills or soft skills would you expect and would you more look for a generalist or more for specialist in the role?
Chris Scott (10:07):
I think it varies greatly depending on what area of the firm you're looking to go. And generally speaking, we try and look at our business analysts internally as product owners. It's like halfway between being a BA in a very technical and halfway between product management. I think that it's a lot of people come in and where we've hired junior product people. It takes a couple of years of really kind of understanding what's going on before you can really get a grasp of what it's truly about. I think you have to be prepared to kind of work hard in the weeds as a business analyst, it's a very good starting position because you get the security of actually, you can come in and you can do a function and work on some projects and start understanding actually all the infrastructure that's there. And when you learn and understand the infrastructure, you then start.
If you're that way minded, you'll start seeing the problems in it. You start seeing problems in the processes, lean on that infrastructure and have people involved. You'll look at the way the clients interact with you across the infrastructure. And that infrastructure could be technology. It could be people based. It could be a combination of both it, everything you do in finance is a combination of people and technology, no matter how many you computer there, there's still somewhat at the end of the day, even there's only one or two people that are involved in the process somehow. And a lot of the value is in automating the commercial functions that teams do, or someone does on a regular basis, be it a trader or be it someone internally. So you've got to come in and you've got to be prepared to kind of spend a long time learning that environment.
A lot of product managers fall into that role or pushed into that role over time because they have a good understanding of that environment. And they're willing to go on a limb to try and change it. You can't just come in and turn around and go, right, give me a product, I have to get the value from it, right? That's not really product management. It's not kind of forward-looking and go. And actually, how do I create, how do I evolve this? How do I keep up with my competitors? How I get ahead of them. There's a very technical aspects of product management, a lot of firms, which is very much like you're working for the API, "Go and design" the API, go out in these fields." That's more akin to really what I would refer as business analyst. Term has become kind of blended because people want to be called a product manager. They don't want to be called a business analyst, but in reality, the good product managers, the best product managers all come from some kind of technical role or business analyst role where they've spent a lot of time learning and understanding that kind of subject.
Helene Lipp (12:15):
Do you believe also because you mentioned that it's very important of course, to have technical skills, which you consider students or graduates who don't really have many technical skills, but curiosity, would you give them a chance and why?
Chris Scott (12:32):
That's a bias question, having not gone to university myself and being given a chance. It's hard for me to say, I shouldn't give someone a chance, I wouldn't. I would say, ultimately, the world is a very competitive place and what I don't think for a second, that there's a big desire that everyone should code, right? And kids should code. I think that's flawed slightly picture understand how to code and the impact of it. Be good at kind of scripting so SQL or being able to just queue some batch up and run it. And I think that that kind of base level of skill is definitely required because it helps you process and understand a lot of data very quickly, and it helps you and you need to have some basic kind of skills.
Chris Scott (13:10):
If you want to present a business case and argument, right? You have to understand what are the financial implications of this, right? If I'm twisting as part of the process, you have to be able to buy, qualify that the kind of impact that has an internet into some kind of argument, a calculation for what's the value in automating this, how much is this going to cost? So you've got to be relatively good technically, but you don't have to, you certainly don't need to code, right. You need to get a pseudocode, right. And you just sit there and they explained the kind of logical steps and write some kind of if statement, but you don't need to be able to do it in Java or C sharp or, or anything like that. You just need to be able to put it in a way that a developer and a business can take it and go, right.
Here's the problem I'm solving for. Here's how the algorithm is supposed to work, or here's the end result. And, and you can have that discussion and you need you to understand back the limitations of technology and on what you may or may not have in the firm. So you needs to be fairly competent in that regard. But I look for when I'm hiring, I look for people that have got some kind of scripting python but really if you can log into a database and I'm stop tearing it apart. And then the bigger challenge is trying to find someone that you could give a database to the sequel bits, the easy part, but can they figure out a database in the dark? Could they figure out what is going on in that database? The relationships between the tables and stuff like that. So that kind of figuring out of how things relate and interact that you want to look for and you want to test, or when you're interviewing people in that software, it was very hard to find it very rare to find them. A lot of people are very good at doing retrospective analysis on a problem. That's already been kind of solved where you've got the perfect dataset for, but you don't. And we don't operate in a world where you have a perfect data set. So how do you produce a good estimate for your solution, right? One that, that you're comfortable backing when they go and pitch to clients and test your clients without looking silly. Right. You've got to be relatively good at that.
Matthew Cheung (15:00):
How important is the, in terms of like the soft skills when you're dealing with, I suppose, in a way your customers, your clients are the guys on the business end, The guys on the desk, how much do you, how much have you used your kind of negotiation skills and soft skills to be able to argue a kind of a good idea you may have and similarly pushback on ideas that you think doesn't actually make sense in terms of what you're seeing on the product side and technology side. And obviously dealing with probably Brokers on a desk or could be potentially confrontational. How have you handled that in the past as well?
Chris Scott (15:41):
Yeah, the brokers are obviously, they're very interesting and a different bunch. There's a different dynamic with them to deal with other people where I spent three or four years on a broking desk. It was all kind of water for docs back. Now, you get kind of get used to in where I started, it's very different place where I started, where I started getting shouted out on a daily basis or pins locked you if you made a mistake or, whatever it was normal. And you just, you develop a thick skin quickly or you just can't cut it. So, I never worry about dealing with new brokers and you just take them at face value. You just gotta make sure if we've ever, not just brokers. It's important when approaching a trader to pitch your products or anyone entirely right.
Try and have a lot of empathy and think about how they feel about their product. If you're, if you're going to automate an operations process, don't just walk into operations and "Guys, look, this is a great idea". Because it might be a great idea and it might be great idea for the firm, but it doesn't mean it's great for that person. Let's say for brokers, right? If you want to automate and make the product, they're trading electronic, right? Just go guys, look, we can make this electronic great. But how about how's that guy feel how's that going is going to take it. And in my younger days, I certainly didn't have that, that kind of natural level of empathy I just warned about. And we can do all this stuff. We'll do that. And occasionally someone bite on the ideas and we're doing a bit, it was a lot of fun and sometimes it worked and sometimes it wouldn't.
And these days I certainly try less ideas and put less ideas forward. But the success rate in terms of getting people bought into those ideas is definitely much higher. And it's about spending the time before you're going to see the traders to talk about the idea, think about as a trader, how am I going to take this product? Does this really add value to my life? Is this something that's nice to have, but is it how important really? Is it to me then for the trade? Like who's going to buy your products. How is he going to get it through his teams internally? Right. You've got to think about, well, actually, how you add value or how you're solving and how you're solving problems for, for several people with this solution. And how do you position that? And then internally again, is you've got to position it correctly to the right people.
It's not about misrepresenting what you're doing. It's just about having this guilt of, should I even tell this person, but looking at this, even back to the operations example, right? You've got like, great idea. Even if you got to like one or two levels up from the kind of operations guy, what's his manager motivated by, how much processing and how many people they run. You have to take these ideas relatively high up the chain and, and build that. And you have to rely on your internal network to do these things, but you've got to take your relatively high up the chain to the point where who's the person operations actually motivated by simplifying this process in reducing this cost or whom in the business side is a sponsor. And who's picking up that bill at the end of the day, go and find that person push the ideas to them and then build up a kind of team around how are we going to begin to take it and move it forward.
Helene Lipp (18:05):
Do you think it became more difficult in the last years? Or in the last ten years to really get the connections, to really find the network, to really get the right person you need, or do you think it hasn’t changed?
Chris Scott (18:18):
Internally?
Helene Lipp (18:20):
Internally. Like who's doing what? Whom can I ask for that? Do you think it has become more difficult?
Chris Scott (18:27):
In a big organization especially, you rely heavily on that internal network, do whatever you want, kind of your internal brand. And they act in a very different manner to smaller organizations where you've got a very small number of people focused on the same goal. Internally, a big corporation, you've got a lot of different teams. And then the alignment between teams in the organisation is run very, very efficiently. And we've got clients who are looking at, how do we innovate? How do we adopt new solutions internally for us? It's getting easier to get investment into projects and things sent off, which obviously is great because you, as a product person, you want to be trying to put forward new initiatives all the time.
Matthew Cheung (19:07):
And do you think the way pick firms look at FinTech has changed in the last couple of years as well? You know, obviously cloud adoption in big financial institutions is, in a much better place than it was a few years ago. London and UK have a very thriving FinTech ecosystem. How has the ability for you to interact with small startups changed and how does that help accelerate what you do in your role?
Chris Scott (19:38):
I think FinTech is still a dangerous term to use in big organizations, because even though we are deploying technology and finance as a kind of connotation that comes with FinTech of, I was a bit fast and loose, it can be a bit haphazard, it can be a bit risky. The bigger the organization, generally speaking, the more risk averse they often are, the more they want to try risk manage anything. And obviously finance is all about risk management, right? You're constantly managing whether it's from a trading perspective, economic risks, whether you're in the technology side, which essentially managing data risk, right? Whether it's security or whether it's whatever product you're doing, you still got to manage the risk in terms of moving data from point A to point B or some kind of transition to it or transformation to along the line. So, think about without using that term, they've certainly opened it up. Actually, we do need to invest these FinTech firms are going to come and eat our lunch. If we don't invest in technology, they just haven't called it FinTech.
Matthew Cheung (20:30):
Going back to, I love your story about applying for a job you saw online and working your way up, but you later did an MBA a few years ago. So that's probably quite an unusual path for someone to not do a degree and then later to do an MBA when you've been 10 years or so into your career. Why did you decide to do that? And what did you think it offers you because students today who are coming through the system, they do a bachelor's degree and there's a lot of people now that do a master's degree because they feel like they need to differentiate themselves. Then there's this a bit of a leap for them to do an MBA. What would she say that gave to you in both connections and people and, and in terms of learning?
Chris Scott (21:14):
Yeah, I guess it's kind of underwhelmed, frankly, on the connections and people side of things, the cohort I was with just weren't, it kind of naturally there was a lot of people from outside of finance at CASS. They spent a lot of time trying to get people from outside of finance into the cohort, because typically I think the very finest dominated years previously for me personally, if there was a combination of kind of person ambition of, I messed up and then the second year, my A levels didn't get into university as a result of that. So I wanted to go back and prove to myself and said to my parents as well, that I could actually do it. And, but if you do take a lot away from it also, when you were trying to balance work family, and then 30 hours of study a week on top of that, you've got to be all in on it.
And I think that I'd certainly benefited more from doing it later because of that. And had I gone and done it when I was 19, 20, I wouldn't have spent it to work as hard in university. And that gave me a good degree in terms of how do I structure things better? How do I use there's a lot of frameworks about them you just pay most people don't know about for how you analyze kind of your company's position in a marketplace, or how do you analyze an opportunity? How do you quickly quantify and compute net present value? But I said, where you were in Product Management put your mind when you're pushing for one thing to another very quickly, and you need a very wide and diverse set of skills to case for those situations, you need to understand what people are talking about very quickly.
And it just kind of helped broaden your mind in terms of actually, how do I present this to this person I want to talk. And this is a lot of time on the business math side of things helps you deal with the finance teams internally and understanding what's important to them. There are other ways. And that can be useful as well when you're trying to seek investment, right? You go and ask for a million pounds. It's much easier to ask for a million pounds, if you can turn around with the financing. So, I want to capitalize it over 10 years because that's the life of this product and we can appreciate it accordingly. That's a much stronger argument. Look, it's a million pounds, but I think we're going to make 10 for me. It helps you helped you just, and one of the things that really stuck with the kind of early lectures it was, they said, don't do this as a degree for pure learning's sake view.
This is a degree for helping you understand all of that, the importance of all the functions across the organization. And it really does, if you, if you'd look at it that way and take it on board that way, which I try to, it does open your mind to actually things that I hadn't really considered before, like culture and how important that is to an organization. And actually, how important is, it's as I'm stepping up kind of through the ranks. Now it is to me. Yeah. That the culture in my team is, is one that's pretty progressive. And I'm one that I want to be proud of as a person. It was just kind of a 1990s type culture where it's how I get the most out of people and kind of grind them out. And when they're gone, just get someone in it's how do you inspire them and foster a culture kind of creativity.
And I think if you've got a group of people that are really happy and motivated, you'll naturally get good performance out of them. And yeah, you get more as a result, but you've got to learn and sit down at these things in a lot of people, it's just kind of not natural to kind of always think about that. I’m more technically oriented type guy, right? I like to get stuck into the weeds of these things. So you have that reminder and I look back and go actually, nice things about this. And in fact, I insert to what we're trying to do as well as the structure for putting arguments forward. It helps a lot in that regard, it was good, a good refresher on maths and stuff that I'd done 10 years or so. Yeah. In the past you do, if you don't use it, you do lose it to a degree.
And also, you there's a lot of things you'll do, like sometimes I spend two or three months working on a project. Yeah. You have kind to use SQL skills and I've got a handle on this for a year or two. I spent half your time figuring out how do I do a join, whatever you spent half the time, trying to remember that. And no matter what it is, whether it's a technical skill like that, or a more soft skill, it's important to have that refresher to have those kinds of references. And then it opens you up to a lot of other people as well. Like they were very interesting. We've got to have a lot of abroad type placements and see a lot of other companies and how they operate. Yeah. And it's good.
I've always had a mantra, you read a book, take two things in that book and apply it to, to what you're doing in your life. You can, you're never going to do more than that, but just read that book or whatever it is about. Take two bits from it. And you can do that from an MBA, but every month I was just trying to say one more thing from that. And actually, how do I just improve what I'm doing day to day? And it didn't really do make a difference in because of where I was, where I got to as a result of that. And it does kind of help shape you and it knocks on the edges.
When you're younger, you don't realize kind of how rough around the edges you are at. It is to just be like, I've got all these great ideas. I should be in charge. But in actual fact that the people at best have being in charge are often the ones that don't have the great ideas, but they're the ones that can nurture and help you understand and shape and put forward that idea can assess the ideas being put forward quite critically, very, very quickly. And he would give you a feedback. You need to kind of make the idea of work or something, or stop wasting your time on an idea that isn't going to go anywhere.
Matthew Cheung (26:08):
You've mentioned creativity a couple of times throughout this conversation, how would you advise people who are looking to get into product management to harness that creativity? Are there any things they could start doing or thinking about?
Chris Scott (26:23):
It's a hard question. I think creativity, a lot of people either have it, or you don't. It's one of those things that you can't really learn. It's like trying to run the saying, Oh, I can spend all day practicing a hundred meters, but I'll never be anybody anywhere close to as fast and right. You have it or you don't. You either naturally a good problem solver or you're not. If you want to try and test and see where you're at, “Go and look at the Google type interview corrections and see how, how you do”.
They're not trying to test your, catch you out in terms of, can you get the right answer? They want to see how you're approaching that problem. What's your critical thinking? Like when you're looking at a problem, in how many different ways can you view a problem? They generally don't care about the answer. They want to see how you're approaching it and the best way to go and dig where you're ranking at and be open-minded. Don't worry about being embarrassed or coming up with stupid answers and interviews. That moment of awkwardness often leads to a point where actually you've got a more open and candid discussion.
Matthew Cheung (27:18):
Okay. So, to finish off then if you were to kind of meet a younger version of yourself when you were starting out and kind of know what you know now, would you have any advice to give yourself back then?
Chris Scott (27:27):
Be more patient, take more time about how you approach things. Like one bit of advice that someone gave me the five or six years after I started was that overnight success takes 15 years. And I thought, it sounds like a long time, but it's true. Right? You have to be patient and you have to just be thought out. And how do I take that approach a bit more at times I think I would have maybe moved up and gone further earlier in my career. But if you're too pushy, if you're not empathetic and if you're viewed, always in a rush or drive into hard, the people naturally, then people's natural instinct is to push back and go, “ woah slow down”. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong. But if you're too pushy, a lot of people get very defensive about it.
Just like, you'd be in a pain now. Just stop. Just relax. You'll get there. Right? We'd like you to think you're good. This way works for us. And I think a lot of people don't tell you that. So, you've got to remind yourself that, look, if you get the job and you give him the gig, it is because I think you're good enough. Just be patient, demonstrate the skills, look for what you're being asked to do. If you can solve a problem, put it together, structure it, spend the time on it even takes you three months to put it together around everything else you're doing. Put it forward. But patience is definitely an attribute that I think I'm still learning, but I certainly didn't have it at all when I started.
Helene Lipp (28:38):
Other skills, you would say, or other characteristics you think are very important for like students or graduates trying to learn patience?
Chris Scott (28:47):
Be prepared to work hard on junior stuff. A lot of grads I've interviewed over the years were hired a couple years ago for junior product guy. And I think I interviewed 20, 25 graduates and the ambition on guys was phenomenal. And they were clearly super smart people. The biggest problem I had was I didn't think there was any one of them that I looked at that I thought you're going to come in and you're going to spend two years working hard and learning and understanding this environment because you can't just come in and be a superstar overnight. It doesn't happen. Also, if someone asks you in an interview, boom, any questions for me? Never say how long time and a hundred grand a year, because that quick, you won't have second interview.
Matthew Cheung (29:29):
Yeah. That's a good way to get a big, “no”, isn't it? Okay. Well on that note and Chris Scott, Senior Product Manager for equities, TP ICAP. Thank you very much for your time.