[00:00:14.438] - Matthew Cheung
Hi, this is Matt from Work in FinTech, today, I'm joined by Ben Ford, who's doing a master's in finance at Cass Business School in London. And we're delighted to interview Toby Babb from Harrington Starr. And Harrison Star is the recruitment firm, which Toby can tell you about, that specialises in FinTech. And he has a very unique position because essentially he's matching talent pools with people applying for jobs and matching that with companies looking for people to recruit. So it's quite a unique perspective in the ecosystem, which we want to talk toby about. Morning Toby and morning Ben. 

[00:00:50.588] - Toby Babb
Morning, guys. Lovely to be here. Thanks for having me on. 

[00:00:53.688] - Ben Ford
Morning. 

[00:00:55.518] - Matthew Cheung
Over to you Ben! 

[00:00:56.848] - Ben Ford
OK. Thank you for joining us Toby. 

[00:00:59.558] - Toby Babb
Absolute pleasure. 

[00:01:00.958] - Ben Ford
Could you give us a brief introduction to yourself, Harrington Starr, and maybe you could talk about how you transitioned from a history degree to founding your own company? 

[00:01:11.028] - Matthew Cheung
Yeah, absolutely. So as Matthew says just before, Harington Starr is an exclusive financial technology recruitment business. And I think you mentioned there that fintech means loads of different things to different people, I'm sure we'll come onto that at various stages as it comes through. But we look across the spectrum at a number of different client bases from end-users, banks, hedge funds, asset managers through to vendors and consultancies and software providers, and then a number of different disruptors and start-ups across the space. We've been running now for 11 years. I've been in the industry for 21 years. So back in the millennium, I joined the industry and have been helping companies to bring on great people and great people to find opportunities in this space for a long, long time now. Going back to a history degree, as you say, it's one of those degrees where you end up not really knowing where you're where you're going to go afterwards. It's not overly vocational and in what you want to do. I ended up leaving that and getting into the event business for a couple of years, which was great fun. And by chance, a friend of mine talked to me about the recruitment industry and got me a job with a business at that stage that was a straight start up in a group of companies, and we grew it to, from 400 people to two and a half thousand in the eight years that I was there. We floated, I moved up through the ranks, and after 10 years and two companies and seeing that sort of success, I figured it was the opportunity to start something up. I wanted to work in a space that I was really passionate about. I saw massive need in and also an awful lot of opportunity. And that was the Fintech space, it was an area there where I thought there was going to be continuing ongoing need. And fortunately, that seems to have proven to be the case. So, I love doing it, I love seeing people find great careers. And I've seen companies really grow and understand in those businesses and seeing how we can help them on their journey to becoming as successful as they can possibly be. I guess an answer to your question, it's probably luck! 

[00:03:19.848] - Ben Ford
You touched on that Harrington Starr works and recruits in the fintech ecosystem. Could you just attempt to give us a definition of what FinTech is? 

[00:03:29.938] - Toby Babb
So FinTech is whatever you want fintech to be, isn't it? In many, many respects, so there will be people there who will look at it in its purest sort of sense. So for me, there's both B2B and B2C, FinTech and fintech as a term has got it's question marks around as to whether its financial technology or fintech. And you can look at the whole payment space. You can look at, you know, the whole opportunities there for capital markets to improve and what they look at for me, it's an all encompassing term. There is a world within finance that I believe has been underserved in terms of digital transformation for some time. We've been working in an economy and a banking structure that I think has probably been quite conservative for some time and has lagged behind sectors such as e-commerce, where you've seen an awful lot of digitisation that has made it easier for people to consume, basically to go to market. The last five, 10 years, I think we've seen acceleration within it through the cloud and over the course of the last 18 months, we've seen even more acceleration with the pandemic, forcing a conservative and established and regulated industry to suddenly become a lot more, I guess, hungry to innovate and show different ways of working. So for me, if I was to bracket FinTech in any particular phraseology, it would be technology that drives efficiency where where financial transactions are engaged. And I've and said that for the very first time out loud, rather than in my head for a a stage whilst I was thinking about it because there are so many different areas. And I think people can get to dogmatic sometimes about trying to get an absolute definition of what fintech is because there are so many different avenues to it. That's why I love the industry. The whole B2C world continues to evolve and you see different ways of people creating efficiency. And I'm we're sure going to talk a little bit later on about some of the interviews that I've done on fintech focussed TV. But if you look at effectively what we're trying to do is reduce friction, improve customer experience, reduce costs, make things as efficient as possible. Any technology in the financial sector that's trying to do that to me is what FinTech is all about and whichever whichever arena it is. 

[00:05:53.758] - Ben Ford
You know it's really interesting over the interviews we've done, we've heard many different approaches to what FinTech is, and everyone's always very sceptical to put down a very defined structure to their answer. I guess somewhere we could go into more is that fintech encompasses a staggering array of companies. What area of fintech are you finding the most interesting and think will have some real and meaningful growth over the next five years and beyond? 

[00:06:18.758] - Toby Babb
That's a great question because, and again, not wishing to be too non-committal or sit on the fence around that, there are so many different areas there where I don't think there is an area of the financial technology ecosystem at the moment that isn't going to, you know, isn't going to improve. So I'm going to look at where I where I could see my probably the biggest part of my 21 years of doing it has been in the capital market space. And when you look at the capital markets arena and you see an industry there that has been slow to adopt cloud technology and you see the opportunities and the enhancements that you can see through that. And you see a different world now of work, which I don't think is going to be dramatically different as we come back over the next couple of years. But as you see, people who are looking for more and more efficiency, increased speed, you know, cost reduction, friction reduction, all those sort of areas. If I'm looking at an area of the financial markets that has the opportunity to improve to the greatest scale capital markets tech for me is where there's a lot of excitement and still very much the sort of acorns of an oak tree that can grow in terms of what innovation can happen in the space. 

[00:07:32.058] - Ben Ford
You touched on earlier about the interview series you do. Can you tell us about your most interesting interaction with a Fintech leader you've had, one that really stood out? The only caveat is that you just can't answer Matt [Cheung]. 

[00:07:44.938] - Toby Babb
Well, you know, I was going to say Matt Cheung, but what can you do. There are always great conversations with him. But, yeah, I was thinking about this a lot. And it's now it's now well over 150 interviews over the course of the last, you know, the last year that we've been doing we've been interviewing three people a week. We've got some great shows coming up where we've started to amalgamate various different people. And I think those conversations where I'm starting to put two and three and four people together have been really, really interesting and and starting to tackle some of the problems that we're looking at in the marketplace and how companies are doing that. So when we're looking at one of my big passions at the moment, which is which is collaboration, you know, and seeing companies there that have looked at a problem and said, right, we can't solve this on our own, but we can collaborate with two, three or four other businesses to provide a solution that's bespoke to the customer and put the customer first. Those are the conversations I really, really enjoy. So rather than here's an individual solution that's going to be something that would change the world. I like the ones there where we're saying, let's come together and work almost as a team to provide, to bring the best of my business as a niche expert in a field to say how does that interact with another company over here and another company over here to do that? And there'll be an interview coming out soon with BMLL [Technologies] and FlexTrade, Paul Humphrey and Andy Mahoney, which I thought was a really, really good one. You know, there's been numerous different groupings where we're looking at particular issues in the marketplace. And if we can solve them, I love the ones which we've done when we've looked at company culture. I'm a big fan of building high performance teams and looking at high performance cultures and and particularly looking at some of the issues that we've seen over the last couple of years of how companies have had workplaces and workforces that have been distributed in ways that had never been before and still maintain that culture. For me, as a you know, I've often said that my MBA, my education over the last year has just been talking to so many different inspiring business leaders where they've been able to come together and provide ideas that I've been able to steal a magpie and bring into my business to make it easier for me as well. There is stunning, stunning collaboration, thought process, communication channels, incentives. Those are things that people have done to lead with the heart and really look after their teams. And those conversations that I've had, which, you know, I wouldn't single out any one in one individual. I think there's been a lot, I've loved every every single episode! I've very rarely spoken to anyone who I haven't really enjoyed speaking to. I've learnt something from every single one of them and it's been great fun to put together. So yeah, I would say as a macro theme, those ones where we're bringing people together and talking about challenges in the marketplace and how people are really clever at looking at customer problems and doing that have been really stood out to me. And alongside that, those those ones where we're really looking at company cultures and high performing teams and building high performing teams, they've been ones that really tick my boxes at what really excites me on a Day-To-Day basis as well. 

[00:10:40.018] - Matthew Cheung
What would you say for for young people who are maybe haven't secured their first job yet and they're looking at different roles? What would you see as the checklist of things to look out for and questions to ask employers about culture and high performance teams and so on? Is there a few things that you could give advice on there for the young professionals kind of coming into the market? 

[00:11:05.228] - Toby Babb
That's a great question and one which I think comes downto a three letter acronym of MAP, which is Mastery, Autonomy and Purpose, which is is ripped off from an author called Dan Pink. He's written a book called Drive and is one of my favourite authors to read about. And I think if you're going into any sort of job as a graduate, it's such an important thing to get right. It's such an important thing to make sure your first company is someone that set you up to succeed, because I've seen so many graduates go into jobs and just struggle because and get maybe turn their back on an industry because they've made a poor choice at the start and say, right, that's not for me. But it might not be to the industries, not for them. They could be spectacular in that industry, but they're just not getting the support they need from that particular company. So is that company set up to support new talent in the industry? And how are they going to do that? Now, if I'm sat there and thinking, what do I ask? And that when I'm nervous and I'm thinking there's pressure on me to get a job, maybe I'm just selling myself rather than asking questions about what's in it for me. And I think the savvy graduate who's going into to a job at the moment, has to make sure that they are really sure that this is a business is there to set them up to succeed, to set them up to be a vehicle for those of those people succeed. Mastery, autonomy and purpose of things that I think are incredibly important. Let's start with mastery. So mastery means is how is a company going to help me on that journey to becoming the best I can possibly be in that? Now, if you're talking to a company who I think is on that journey, they'll be able to say to you, this is why we are set up to make you successful. What are the case studies that they've shown in the past? How can they tell you about the processes? Are they going to do what the support actually looked like? What's the pressure on that particular business to get performance as opposed to a longevity of success for that particular individual was the pathway that they can show that other people have been on? Because if you look at it and you see that there's graduates who are there and they move on to to get the next role. You probably got a clue there as to what's happening in that particular business. It might be a great starting point. I can think of certain companies, certain enterprise businesses who my team will look at and say that is a great place to get a graduate with two years experience from now.  That's interesting because it can still be a great place for someone to work with. But it's also is that going to be a place which sets that person up? So I speak to a recruiter and really understand not only does that company do that, but are they then going to make you employable from being in that particular business, working for a couple of the enterprise businesses might not necessarily give you, you know, the freedom to do everything that can specialise in a particular area, but it can absolutely, you know, can it set you up to be a master at your trade? And can it give you the tools you need to be successful in your job? Autonomy is about giving you the freedom. And I think particularly as you look at the generation who are coming through at the moment, there are micro environments, micromanagement environments and those environments that set you up to be supportive, to allow you to be successful. My view is that those micromanagement environments are going to, you know, are going to work for some people and they're not going to work for others. So you've got to know you and you've got to be authentic to what you want to do and how you want to approach things in your career. For me, I walked in when I first got into to my industry. I walked into one of the biggest micromanagement environments in the world and it was famed for that sort of stage. And there were many people who go off at lunchtime and never come back because they hated the sort of pressure and pressure cooker environment. We still wait for them to come back from lunch and to this day. But for me, it was something which I absolutely needed at this stage, set me up and line me up to do that. That was my learning style. That's what made me successful at doing what I was doing. And it was very clear for me to do it. Other people hated that and respond in a different way. They went off and did very well in other businesses that allowed them to have that sort of place. So you've got to know again, what's the style that's going to suit you and how is that going to work into. Some people want that freedom and autonomy and some people want to earn that autonomy through being told and given the tight parameters, what they want to be afterwards. The third part, which I think is becoming ever more important, is purpose. Are you joining a business that's going to inspire you, excite you, has a story to tell, take you on a journey. You're doing something more than just coming into work and going home from work. I think I always shudder and hate social media when you look at it and it's like, oh, God, it's Monday or humpday Wednesday or Friyay or whatever it is where people are desperate for the weekends. And I always think that's fairly tragic to spend 40, 50 years of your life desperate for two days of your week to happen so you don't have to be going into doing a job. So that purpose has to be something which you're passionate and excited about. I'm very fortunate to have found a job which I've always been able to get up to work for and be excited about the difference that I can make on a day by day basis. And I think people need to go into that to say, look, I am I am I changing the world with the technology that we're making? Am I having an impact in the company that I'm working for? I'm just a sort of cog in the world. I'm a permanent seat. And am I doing something that I passionately believe in and I'm excited about and I feel like I'm going to be engaged in with it. So if you're looking at those three things and say mastery, autonomy and purpose and you're looking at through that lens, then you have a company. As difficult as it sounds, I don't think just get a job to get a job to, you know, to find a job that you're that you're really excited about, that you feel that you can be supported about, that is the right one for you and gives you the purpose to get up every day and be excited about what you're doing with it

[00:16:29.138] - Matthew Cheung
And playing the other side of that on because there'll be people listening to this as well who are working at an investment bank or fintech and looking to recruit people. Is there anything else that an employer should talk to potential candidates about? You know, obviously these are the mastery, autonomy and purpose. It covers most of it. But is there anything else for employers to mention when they're talking to candidates? 

[00:16:51.738] - Toby Babb
Yes. So this, I think, is another one of my soapbox on the subject. So I'm glad you brought it up. It's for me. I think one of the things that remains really poorly done is interviewing by companies. I think companies are still, and in particular in investment banking. 

 
[00:17:04.308] - Matthew Cheung
You never get taught how to interview. I think that's that's a big thing. 

[00:17:07.908] - Toby Babb
Exactly right. Yeah. It's one of the most important parts of a job. And people sort of plug it and wing it to say, right now, you've got the opportunity to do it. If you look at any single investment in a company that they're going to make any mistake. They're people is the most important part of it. And people remain. It's guesswork in most instances as opposed to as opposed to how they do it. And particularly when you're talking, they're funny enough about investment banks and hedge funds, asset managers. There's a hubris and an arrogance that people should want to work for us so they can come in there and they can sort of push this light in the face of the of the applicant and say, impress me. And that to me is always going to be a mistake about how you engage and attract the best talent into your business. So I think you've got to be absolutely clear about what your employee value proposition is. How are you going to be a standout employer for that particular individual right now? Spoken about the time frame and I want to bang that drum. But 21 years of seeing people come into businesses, there has never been a stage where there is more of a talent shortage and more demand in an industry and this bottleneck of talent coming in and coming into it. So I think when you're when you're an employer looking to bring the the best graduate into your business you can possibly get. I think most of those graduates, most of those talented technologists are going to have the choice of about three or four different opportunities right now if they if they go about their search the right way. So as an employer, me, I can either sort of really scrutinise those people, which I have to do anyway, and get them to make sure they're fit for the for the business. But also, I've really got to go to bat to make sure I'm very, very clear about why this is a great place for them individually, not reel off a script here, saying these are the things that you can do it, but actually find some things about what's going to make that person tick. What do they really want to know? What's exciting about them? People sell too quickly and say this is what we are. This is why it's great to work here. You don't have to be crazy to work here, but it helps all that sort of stuff and say this is the this is the lift and separate. But this is all about tailoring and individuality. What's important to that person? What's going to make them get out of bed? Where do they want their career to go over the next three, four, five, ten years? And how are you going to provide them a pathway to get to that sort of stage? If you can articulate your pathway really succinctly and clearly in an interview tailored to that individual and show them how you're going to support them on that journey, make sure that their hopes, dreams, aspirations are important to you as well as just to them and and show them the path that you can do that. I think you've got a great chance of securing talent when other people are going to be doing and looking for exactly the same thing with a very, very similar proposition, salary or whatever it may be alongside that as well. So then you're not just caught in that in an arms race and having to throw more money at a candidate to win the race? Because I think that's a short term gain, which brings a team of missionaries as opposed to people who are really there to mercenaries as opposed to missionaries, should I say. 

[00:19:59.958] - Ben Ford
You were touching on there what a company should company should do, or what a company should do to secure the best talent, but obviously a lot of students really just want to land their first role no matter the company that it's at, because the amount of jobs these days and the talent, there's quite a spread. What have you noticed about the needs of companies these days and especially the young professionals that they've been hiring? 

[00:20:27.028] - Toby Babb
So it's interesting, isn't it? So if you'd asked me that question a year ago, I'd have winced a little bit about the opportunities for young people coming into the space on that stage. Everyone sort of squeezed a little bit and drew breath and still fresh from 2008 to an extent. And what happened to the marketplace there where we saw a lost generation. You know, the interesting thing for me is not just about graduate talent. It's those people where you're looking for two years experience people afterwards. You know, I was working in a space in 2010, 2012 where everyone was looking for someone with two years experience, but no one had invested in that experience in 2008 to 2010. And it becomes really interesting bottlenecks there about what happens and how they have to sort of recalibrate what they're looking for. You asked me now, and I think that's that people in this space are open to developing talent. They've absolutely adapted to homeworking to people. That's taking on people remotely. There was a lot of concern about watercooler moments and how people can't learn by osmosis from sitting next to each other. But people have really adapted their L and D programmes. And right now, I think there is an increase, a significant increase in demand for strong graduate talent. The difference is, I think it probably focuses on that first part of strong graduate talent rather than just graduate talent. And that is a responsibility for everyone who's graduating at the moment to really be able to showcase themselves and not have any hubris or arrogance about saying, well, I'm a graduate, so I need to have that work is what is the you know, what is what is it that makes me special? How can I articulate that? How have I research more than other people? And I think that there is a there's always an ability to find, you know, find the right job. But I think some people sort of sit there and expect that to happen. And the success cases that I see consistently are people who are graduates who look to make something happen, not when it's a cliche too much, but people who will go out there and say, right, okay, how do I make myself look a standout candidate? How do I make myself interview better then than the competition? Are there how am I going to show I've done more research? How am I going to do more than expected of me? I think that's a mantra for anything. You know, when you started a job, when you're looking for one, how can I do more than this? It's better than me to really make myself stand out. If you're sat there and you say, right, here's a piece of paper that says, I've got a degree and you've not done anything else and you can't showcase any of your work and you're not shown that you're passionate about that brand or you shown any sort of research about that business. You can't expect to be the person who stands out in a in a competitive playing field. I think I've probably veered away from your question about where where opportunities are right now. It's across across the board. But there are certain areas of technology which I think are absolutely and going to be remain in high demand, which would be data and analytics. You're looking at various areas of development with a particular focus on Python to an extent, C Sharp, .Net and and various elements of Java. And those, you know, I don't think is as a grad coming into it with strong track records in and even actually in design as well. And, you know, when you look at front end tech as well, all of those sort of areas are going to are going to tee you up for strong opportunity in terms of fintech. And that we'll we talk about a little bit later on as well, doesn't just purely revolve around outand out coding. But I'd say if you've got those coding skills, you've got a great chance of of doing something and then adding the human element to it as well. This is one of the days of people sat in the corners with headphones in and not interacting. You're looking for a commercial business minded people who are able to add more to it, as well as the coding side of things and interact a little bit more now as well to do a little bit more than just sit in code. 

[00:24:22.748] - Matthew Cheung
Just just a question on in terms of setting yourself apart, if you're a young person who's still studying and showcasing things you like to showcase and could be in working with companies, it could be your own blogsite, it could be some community that you built, lots of different things. And I think that's quite easy and tangible to understand and show and employees like that. What's your opinion on the free kind of, you know, all these massively open online courses, and Coursera, and Udemys and a lot of other upstarts that are doing similar? What do you see in the value in those when an employer is looking at candidates? Is it is it more useful just as extra knowledge? So people can talk and and sound more knowledgeable when they're in interview or actually to some of those are saying quite well, from an employer's perspective, it's like, oh, well you've got this particular course on your CV and that actually looks pretty good or is it not really taking into account? 

[00:25:20.978] - Toby Babb
I would absolutely say that someone won't look at it and say that, you know, that specifically opens the door to this to this opportunity. I would suggest that it's all things that are at different points of differentiation. Right. Know, if you look at it and say, right, what does an employer look for? They're looking at the degree. They're looking at the university. You probably got that degree from. But they're also looking at what you've done above and beyond that. So as you say, those blogs and and projects and work experience and whatever it may be to to stand out from the crowd if you're doing courses, is it going to help to show that you've, you know, you've gone above and beyond and put that extra work in? Absolutely. Is there something there where I say that it's going to be a stand out that gets you a job over someone else? Probably not, because I still remain something, you know, something like that might get you through the door. it might get the CV noticed, it's put the extra layers onto the CV, but realistically it's going to be about performance and how that person displays themselves in the interview at the same time as well. 

[00:26:21.098] - Ben Ford
We've touched a lot on what was happening for students and how students can join a fintech. Are you notice in any trends in people that want career changes? Maybe someone has been in the field for five years in, say, it, but now they're wanting to jump into fintech?

[00:26:33.278] - Toby Babb
Yeah, I think it's always been an attractive industry and traditionally it's been one of those ones where if you hadn't had, you know, it was a closed door, you hadn't had financial services experience, it was going to be very difficult to get into the financial services arena, as I think the last 10 years have evolved. You've seen technologists from outside the space become extremely attractive to people, to organisations from the financial services sector because of more innovation coming from outside than various stages inside. So there's been, there is a well known online supermarket retailer that's got a strong technology grouping up in just north of London. And the banks have always been very, very keen to bring that talent into their business because they know that it's a good incubator for talent and they can then pay more and bring people into that space. We've seen a lot of people from traditional financial markets, for example, a lot of traders and brokers who have in their their world mediated a little bit by technology who then said, I want to work for, you know, to work in sales for a fintech. And again, there's been a sort of probably arrogance around that sort of thing, saying, look, it must be easier. I can work from that. I've worked in industry, et cetera, et cetera. But it's a very different sell. So I think, again, it's people that who've taken the time to understand what's needed and positioned themselves to stand out, which has been important to. So there is an awful lot of interest of people cross training and coming from different areas. And I think there's always an exciting opportunity for people to come across and do a different job. 

[00:28:13.438] - Ben Ford
Are you are you noticing any particular skill shortages, maybe these people are coming from great backgrounds, they've got great work ethic, they got a great CV, but are they in particular missing a common trait, something that they need to be taught, something they need to learn to succeed in fintech? 

[00:28:29.638] - Toby Babb
Yes, so Fintech look it's got it's got its nuances and its specialist areas. And we take capital markets as a particular area. You know, one of the things that always frustrates me on a job spec was where you needed help with or experience in a particular bisight products or a particular vendor, technology, etc, etc. You can't get that without moving into the industry and having that experience. And people sometimes have to move down to move up from it. And I think the industry is particularly and has traditionally been pretty snobbish about making sure they see people from one institution or an area of institution move to another and look at it and said, well, they haven't got financial services experience that can be difficult. And I wouldn't say it's completely gone away, but I think there is more appetite now for people to come into it. So it's this specific experience of knowing what multi-assets are, knowing the industry, you know, knowing that this sort of foibles and various areas and and all the language, the internal language of financial services and the industry itself, which I think is probably help people back traditionally.

[00:29:36.008] - Ben Ford
You touched on earlier a few roles that you think are prevalent in being filled. Maybe you could talk about more about the roles that Harrington Starr fill and help companies fill.

[00:29:46.888] - Toby Babb
Sure our goal, I guess, has always been to look at any company who serves in that financial services space and be able to look at everywhere across technology and where technology meets business. So we've got a team that look after the pure tech areas, which includes all of the development languages through to DevOps, through to infrastructure and networking and application support. Cyber remains an exciting and growing world where I don't think we've ever been busier on that particular desk than we are at the moment. I mentioned it for data science and and even so, maybe I would say that quantitative analytic world is an area where I think there's only going to be more and more boom in need. And that's an area that we are actively growing at the moment. When we look at professional services side, which goes from implementation through to business science and project management through to sales and everything in between to the commercial world. So we're looking at it and saying like, there's the tech piece and there's the commercial piece that BAPM programme sells well, this is something that's particularly interesting as well. 

[00:30:51.788] - Ben Ford
If you can list three skills or three great pieces of advice for students trying to find a roll and forge a successful career, what would they be and why? 

[00:31:01.198] - Toby Babb
Yeah, another great question that. And, it's it's one which I think that take with a bit of responsibility as well, because it's an important thing to do to help people when they first move into that. The first point it is, is I think there's a lack of research that's done in anything full stop. So if I'm a salesperson making a call, I make the call without really researching the business beforehand. Similarly, if I'm going for an interview, I'm not really going to know the details of that particular business. And I think there is a massive, massive stand out. And I've seen people and interviewed people. And I'm always impressed when I see someone who comes there with notes on my company and what the questions they've got prepared for, et cetera, et cetera. There is nothing, I think, that is more dispiriting as an interviewer, when you say that question at the end of you got any questions for me? And someone says, no, I think I've got everything I need. It's such a demoralising blow after a good interview to someone there has shown no interest in actually what they're going to do. So I would say, you know, make sure you research and by researching, I think also research the questions which you can do. And I'm not talking about what's, you know, what the hours and what do I get paid. But I'm talking about, you know all of those things that you're really interested in about DNA of that particular business and then being able to showcase that you've done research on it. The second thing I would suggest is hitting the market and not giving up. So what people will do is, you know, there are so many stories over time of great successes that have come through from people trying and trying and trying again. And something I see that is quite interesting and I've spoken to, you know, I have done some radio work with job seekers at various different stages. And I'm always surprised at how quickly people turn back. So I've sent out five applications and no one's come back to me, so I'm not going to get it. I interviewed someone for us recently who had a first class degree in marketing and then a marketing degree and went into office management. They just couldn't find a job in marketing. So they went into office management and then something else after that. And I'm thinking, well, actual effort was put into that. How many times did they actually go out there and hit the marketplace? How many times were looking to take feedback from what wasn't going right on that particular interview and how they could do it better? How many agencies did they speak to spread that market and get as much help as they how did they engage and mobilise the network to help them and speak to people, go online and approach companies directly.  It is a full time job to get a full time job. And I think people need to really think and plan and put that structure in place to not give up and to hit the marketplace. The third thing I would say is the importance of follow up. So people will do that and say, I never heard back or I didn't do this, or they might have failed in the interview, but really liked it. And to actually then take the time to write a letter, to send an email, to do something different, I think would be, is really important to actually follow up and say to someone after you've interviewed with them, to write them an email and say, thank you so much for your time. I really enjoyed the interview this is where I think. And how many times I can think of so many arguments that I've had in my life where I've thought of the greatest answer ever that would win the argument as soon as I've left the building. And I almost want to run back and do that afterwards where I think you can do in an interview. So I wish I'd said that so many times you walk out of an interview or a pitch or whatever it is and say, I wish I'd said that anything damn it, I can write it in an email, go to the employer and I will guarantee it will make you stand out, say thank you so much for doing it and love talking to you. This is why I want to work for this company. This is why I think this company is going to be brilliant for it. But most importantly, this is what I think I can do to bring to the party. And by the way, I also think I could have said X and Y and Z and really looking forward to it. There's any more information you need. Give me a call. People talk about the application letters and they talk about how you apply and all those sort of things. I think the love letter afterwards, as we call it here, that's the thing there where someone makes himself stand out by following up with an email or a call. Even if you don't get that particular job, stay in touch with that business, keep your doors open, be polite all the way through. And that even goes down to how you welcome yourself into the business. There's so many people who have lost a job by being rude to the receptionist or whatever it may be, and create that impression even at senior levels. You know, they've just done the wrong thing. Be nice to everyone all the way through, be courteous, be excited, be passionate, be encouraging, but also follow up, follow up, follow up. So research, hit the market - don't give up - and make sure you follow up in the process. I think if you can do that, you've got a great chance of of getting a job. 

[00:35:32.178] - Matthew Cheung
Fantastic. Toby, there's lots of very, very insightful information there for people looking for jobs and also employers looking to recruit. So, Toby, thank you very much for your time this morning. And thanks a lot, Ben. 

[00:35:44.108] - Toby Babb
Guys, absolute pleasure. Thank you.

[00:35:45.308] - Ben Ford
Thank you.