Breaking Glass Ceilings: Graduate Advice from Global Chair of Deloitte Sharon Thorne

Sharon Thorne, Global Chair of Deloitte,  joins Matthew Cheung and Josh Lavorini to discuss her experiences breaking glass ceilings in the business world.

Sharon is the first-ever female to hold the role as Deloitte's Global Chair and was also the first-ever female partner in the Manchester office, the first of two women on the UK board in 2004, the first female on the UK executive in 2006 and the first female leader of the regional executive. In 2019, she was appointed as Global Chair.  She is an inspiration to women and girls across the world and an advocate for diversity and inclusion in the workplace. 

In this exclusive interview, we touch on a range of topics, including how Deloitte and broader society is helping to reduce the challenges faced by marginalised groups in society, how they are adapting to the fourth industrial revolution with the new technologies and societal changes that come with it, and careers in ESG, audit and advisory.

These issues affect all of us and are of paramount importance in today's world, so make sure to give the interview a listen and learn from the insights of one of the industry's most impressive leaders. 

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Transcript

Matthew Cheung  0:04  
Hi, this is Matt from work in FinTech. And we're delighted to be joined with Sharon Thorne, who is the Deloitte global board chair. And today she's going to be interviewed by Josh Lavorini, who is studying Spanish at Oxford. Good morning, Sharon, and thanks for joining us today. 

Sharon Thorne  0:20  
Good morning. Great to be with you. Thank you.

Matthew Cheung 0:25

Over to you, Josh  

Josh Lavorini 0:28

Hi, Sharon, thank you for your time today. To get started, could you please tell us about your background and career?

Sharon Thorne 0:39


It's great to be with you and share some of my background and insights. Starting with my early years, my mum was a hairdresser, my dad was in the Navy. As a result, we moved around a lot. I went to nine schools, I was the first in our family to go to university. I went to Oxford, I had an amazing time there, I was very fortunate. I got involved with lots of extracurricular activities as well. But the experience was not without its challenges. And I would say that experiences in Early life and education taught me a lot of life skills taught me how to fit in how to adapt, develop my interpersonal skills, how to read people,

and something that came out of those experiences...

I experienced and saw quite a lot of bullying. When you go to nine schools, fairness and equality became really, really important to me. And it's something that I brought into my working life. And I was determined to create an inclusive workplace for all and I have a special focus on women in leadership. I've been very fortunate, I've had several firsts. So I was the first female partner in our Manchester office, I was the first of two women on our UK board in 2004. As the first female on our UK executive in 2006, as the first female to run a big operational practice, in our business, first female leader of our regional practice everything outside London, being the first often has its challenges. As I said, I was the first woman on our UK executive and I was the only woman. So it could be hard to make yourself heard. But it is the way that you make change happen.

There's also I should say, pull out, you know, an element of luck in the opportunities I've had and had the opportunity to take up. A lot of that's down to connections and networks and who you meet and when you meet them and how you perform. There can be an element of luck in that. But for those of you who are golfers Gary Player said, the harder I work, the luckier I get and there is a lot of truth in that. It also hasn't all been plain sailing. On my first day at Deloitte, UK in 1986 in the Manchester office, I was told by someone quite senior that I would never fit in. Now, there's a lot of history behind that and I won't go into it. But the interesting thing is you know, when I became his boss, a number of years later, I was able to tell him and to improve his behaviour. In 2014, I applied to become the UK chair.

I got down to the last two candidates, I wasn't successful, it was a very public process and that had a big knock on me, I sort of felt for the first time I perhaps hit the glass ceiling. It also brought out and exacerbated my feelings of imposter syndrome.

However, I was very fortunate because it led to my next role, which was the managing partner of global and strategy on the UK executive. It was a fantastic opportunity. And it positioned me very well to become our global chair, because I was also a member of our global board. And I was elected to be global chair in 2019. And you can imagine with the various knockbacks what it meant to me. It was also a very powerful signal of the organisation that Deloitte is

. Two key aspects of my current role. So leading the global board, transforming and modernising governance, setting the tone around purpose and shared values. And the second aspect is being an ambassador and guardian.

Supporting client teams, internal activities, key stakeholder relationships, and the other couple of points just to finish on. You know, being in a senior governance role is very different to my previous management roles, but I can use my platform to advocate for change, and I have an opportunity to ask difficult questions and challenge. And I can also use the platform to share stories and experiences, lead authentically and inclusively and also demonstrate to people you know what you can achieve in spite of being far from perfect. 



Josh Lavorini  5:00  
So on the topic of breaking glass ceilings. Obviously, despite, you know, the challenges that you faced, you've broken basically every glass ceiling that there is. And you've inspired lots of women. In fact, actually, my little sister came home the other day. And apparently you were mentioned in her a level economics class, she's at an all girl school and you were like, you're down apparently is one of the women who like should inspire the young girls, you think that economics might not be for them. But on that topic, What challenges do you think we face now in terms of achieving a level playing field? Because obviously, there's been a lot of progressive change over the past few years, but there still remain some, you know, some issues that need to be needs to be faced? And also, why should businesses be concerned with this?

Sharon Thorne  5:40  
So it's a great question, Josh, and it is still a massive challenge. And, you know, becoming our first female global chair, it was an enormous honour for me personally, and as I said, it says a lot about Deloitte and where we've got to, but our ambitions are to continue improving inclusion, we have a lot to do. And, you know, unfortunately, the playing field is still far from being level. And we absolutely have to address this across society. And we've seen the pandemic deepen pre-existing inequalities, and amplify the challenges that are experienced by already marginalised groups in society. And when women have been disproportionately effective, and businesses should be concerned because they're at risk of losing huge numbers of women from the workforce. We had a Deloitte women at work global outlook report, and it found that the pandemic has taken a really heavy toll on working women. And the barriers that we know existed for women have been amplified. So nearly 80% of women surveyed indicate that their workload at work has increased as a result of the pandemic. They've all had to take on huge more work around childcare responsibilities, and just domestic duties. 51% of women feel less optimistic about career prospects than they did pre pandemic. And 23% are considering leaving the workforce altogether, which is deeply concerning. It's crucial that employers react and ensure that women's needs are accommodated at work to ensure that they remain in the workforce, develop and succeed. And the critical thing about levelling the playing field is to ensure that culture works for everyone. However, workplace culture change is really hard. And it can take years, there isn't a silver bullet because there are hundreds of actions that are required.

The most important the thing, and I've seen it time and again, is that leaders but particularly CEOs take ownership and lead from the front, they have to drive the change and they have to hold the teams accountable. Having said that, everybody across the organisation has to play their part to create a truly inclusive culture. Something I emphasise every time I interact with groups of leaders, we need to have more women in the room, where decisions are being made, and to bring that diversity of thought and ensure wider interests are considered. But more importantly, we actually need to have more women CEOs making the decisions. Now we are on a really significant journey at Deloitte to shift the culture of our workplace and make it a truly inclusive one, where people can be their true selves at work are judged on the quality of the output and the help to achieve their potential. A really important aspect of making progress on gender diversity is setting targets and measuring them because what gets measured gets done.

And as part of our strategy at Deloitte to increase the number of women at all levels, with a special focus on leadership and senior leadership roles. We have a global scorecard, which we discuss regularly at the global executive and the global board. And it covers all levels from graduates where we have roughly 5050 intake in many countries through to our most senior partners, where the split unfortunately is much less even. And these scorecards have been agreed by Deloitte leadership teams in countries around the world and we're all working to achieving our goals. And to try and get to our goals, we're focused on building a culture of respectful and inclusive everyday behaviours. This isn't just about significant incidences of discrimination or harassment, although of course, they're not acceptable and they have to be addressed, but about what we all say and do everyday and how those behaviours feed an inclusive culture where everyone feels able to be themselves and feel they belong. So we provide training on understanding our micro behaviours and we focus on recognising, addressing and reducing micro aggressions and unconscious bias. Other things that can help create a more inclusive culture include making flexible working the norm for everyone, promoting growth opportunities for all, ensuring Diversity, Equity and Inclusion continue to be non negotiable elements of our culture. And another really important element is getting women into the pipeline for promotion. And I think that sponsorship plays a key role in this. You know, sponsorship is really important to enable people to be put forward for opportunities, those opportunities lead to development. And without experiencing the growth and challenge of these different roles, you can never progress to senior roles, and I can see how it's played a key part in my progress over the years.

Unfortunately, you know, informal networks can play a big part of it. And they typically favour men as they are in the senior roles, and it's become even tougher in a COVID, you know, hybrid working environment. So I think most companies need formal sponsorship programmes. And we launched something called the wave in 2019, where I asked everyone on the global board and global executive to sponsor at least one woman, and then to cascade that across all of the leadership teams in Deloitte. And, yeah, I would encourage all leaders to be sponsors, but also people who are looking to progress to make sure they find sponsors, with a huge amount to do for us to get to parity. But as you reference, you know, change is happening. And the more we achieve, the more that will drive further change.

Matthew Cheung  11:33  
And there is a lot of change because at the moment, it's an amazing situation we're in where you had just before Merkel left, Merkel was, you know, running Germany, you know, Janet Yellen, you know, head of the Treasury is head of the Fed, you got another lady, head of ECB, head of the European Commission, and I think that has that has helped as well. And it's helped to prove a point. One thing that I've kind of seen, and probably even personally, in lots of other people, you know, I've got a daughter, and I grew up in a, in a household where it was all men, my mother died when I was when I was young. So I didn't really have the kind of that female way of thinking and approach and so on. And it wasn't until I had my daughter, which was like five and a half years ago, now all of a sudden, everything kind of just changed overnight. And the way I saw things and thought about things and, you know, just as just the very, from the very basic things where, you know, the, the the girls have things in pink, and Barbie dolls, and the boys have dinosaurs in construction toys, and then and it didn't occur to me until that point. And I think there's probably a lot of men who who may be similar, where I haven't appreciated it, but then all of a sudden, that kind of eyes are opened. And I think it's all part of this. One thing you didn't talk about, and we could hear your thoughts on is around bringing up children and having children having time off for children. Because I see that as a real sticking point at the moment, which is causing a lot of issues where you're typically a woman will obviously take time out have the baby, but then when she comes back to work, it's difficult for them to get back on the same track that they were on before. And also for men, it's hard at the moment for men to take a year off to go and raise a child, there's some firms are beginning to do that. It's you know, it's a man and a woman's, you know, if they have a child, they need to do it together, not just the woman. And that that kind of turning i think is you know, there's early a few firms that are beginning to adopt, you know, more of that kind of Swedish approach of doing it, if you want to call it that. Well, what's your kind of perspective on that as well, because I think that needs to be something we talk about that people need to be made aware of?

Sharon Thorne  13:41  
No, I absolutely agree. And there's been quite a lot of research that is indicated that where men have much more direct involvement in bringing up the children, that women are able to continue their careers more successfully. So it helps both parties, it's a really interesting and men, it's very sad, I think, that men often feel they can't take time out to bring up their children, because it's about the cultural and societal norms and expectations that put pressure on men and women. And as you say, a number of companies are now providing equal access, you know, equal time off for childcare. And I think it's something that we have to push. And I'll be honest, we haven't got to that place in Deloitte. But it's something that we've been looking at and something that we need to continue to look at, and we have probably do provide more time off for men. But I am very much of the view that we need to get to parity in that area. But it's not just about providing the policies because, again, there's been evidence that says you can introduce policies that make it completely equitable in time in terms of time off, for childcare for men and women. But if the, again societal expectation or even company culture says that, yes, but you shouldn't take it. If you're the man, then the men still don't take it in there actually has to be a real push. And I referenced it around the whole new women in leadership and inclusive culture has to be driven by CEOs, it's the same about encouraging men to get involved in their families, and childcare and supporting from a young age that the culture needs to encourage that and say, it's a really good thing for people to do it. And the other point I would make is that, I mean, it's something we're doing a lot of in terms of return to work for women, so that of women do take periods out, they can then be rescaled, when they come back. And the other thing is, I talk a lot about the fact that we shouldn't see careers now, as a ladder, it should be like a corporate lattice, where you can be going up and across, potentially down and you know, and we need to be flexible and our people need to be flexible and think about these things differently. Because you can have an incredibly fulfilling career without just going straight up.

Josh Lavorini  16:07  
Onto societal change. And I suppose you could say exponential change in lots of different respects, there is a term that gets banded around quite a lot and seems, I think, quite vague, the fourth industrial revolution. But with regard to technical technological growth more broadly and just the advance of technology, how is Deloitte positioning itself to be ahead of the curve with the developments that might take place in society as a result of these technologies?

Sharon Thorne  16:36  
So this is, you know, I think very challenging. And I would say that the covid-19 pandemic, coupled with the fourth industrial revolution have really accelerated the use of technology and digitization. And they've also, we have seen, brought the existential threat of climate change into the spotlight and I referenced earlier that already unacceptable levels of inequality in society have been exacerbated. And globally, we are seeing millions of people being left behind, impacted by the digital divide, unable to fulfil their aspirations and potential. Now businesses are learning to, you know, pivot, because of the changes, you know, catalysed by the pandemic. And they're adapting to sustainable practices and to technology transformation, huge segments of society is still struggling to bounce back from the impacts of the pandemic. And at Deloitte, we're committed to making an impact that matters to our people, our clients in society. We've invested $1.15 billion in our social impact initiatives over the past five years, we seek to help prepare millions of people who are being left behind by the fourth industrial revolution, to develop skills to meet current and future job demands. And we're doing this through our world class social impact strategy, which consists of two strands Firstly, empowering people through education, skills, development and access to opportunity. And then secondly, transforming learning enabling educators to deliver the skills individuals need to thrive in education and training will be a key enabler to building a more inclusive and sustainable world. And through World Class Deloitte is committed to expand opportunities for 100 million people by 2030. By working to make access to quality education a right for all. And in May this year, we launched the world-class education challenge on the World Economic Forum's uplink platform. We're sourcing ideas across Africa and Asia, and providing support and pro bono services and financial grants to scale the winning approaches. And, of course, more recently, you know, we focused our efforts on the impact of COVID to try and help support some of the 1.6 billion pupils whose education has been impacted. Our climate is another challenge that's been brought into the spotlight by the pandemic. And through our climate strategy, world climate, we are working to get our own house in order and also support our clients. And our ambition is to help clients work through their journey as their advisor and collaborator in their transition to a low carbon future. And a lot of that will be based on technological transformation. We're focused on how we work across all of our business with our clients. And we're committed to accelerating our clients successful transformation, to apply a low carbon future, supporting them to adopt new technologies, new sustainable operating practices, and transforming their business models. And as we work with our clients, you know, to build capabilities, we'll be measuring impacts to scenario planning, stress testing, to reporting on sustainable achievements and building a more inclusive workforce. Just an example in the US, we've announced transactions with two airlines delta and American to procure sustainable aviation fuel in an effort to reduce emissions from employee business, air travel. And another key strand of our climate strategy is empowering our 345,000 people, we talk about them as our superpower, to be better informed around climate change impacts, enabling them to make positive climate choices to reduce that individual and collective impact. And as part of that, we're working closely with the World Wildlife Fund. And they've provided support, helping us develop a recently released climate impact quiz which any of you could could find and take. And it's also they've also advised us on content for our new climate elearning. And they'll continue to provide input into all the different pillars of our world climate strategy. businesses like ours that have the talented professionals resources, and reach to make an impact must do more. And we can also use our convening power across the various ecosystems that we're in. I believe that we have to collaborate radically and act boldly today, together to solve today's challenges.

Matthew Cheung  21:21  
And so in terms of if you're a young person, now, just at the start of your career, or any age, actually, but there's, there's a kind of tipping point in time where at the moment with climate change, but being the UK, the UK has always been very fortunate to punch way above its weight, both in terms of financial services and FinTech, but also around the idea of ESG, green technology, some of the climate change kind of thinking and so on the UK is a leader in that, how can a young person take advantage you know, if if they are in the UK or anywhere, but particularly here, how, what kind of business opportunities are there to help kind of champion that cause, but actually, in terms of, it could be any type of role could be in the technology side or in the finance and consulting side, whatever it may be,  but where could a young person start to think about this opportunity is there at the moment, and there's a changing world, and it's going to change exponentially in the next 10-20 years. With this convergence of technology, and all the view exponential technologies, and IoT, and 3D printing and AI and xR and all of that stuff. Plus climate change and ESG and green technology. If you're a student looking to looking at this now as career opportunity, what would you suggest where where would you look?

Sharon Thorne  22:47  
I suppose there's so many places, and the interesting thing, I think, is having some core skills that you can take anywhere. So, technology for me, it's so critical, now it's forming part of everything, if you haven't got basic technology skills, you're not going to be successful in the vast majority of jobs that are there, because it's just table stakes now. And I think people need to understand that. And the more you can develop your technology skills, the more successful you will be wherever you go. So I think that's the that's the critical thing. And I often hear that go, we're not encouraging girls into STEM, sort of courses and careers, etc. And that's really sad. Because the you know, there is there are so many, as I say it is table stakes, but the skills that you'll develop there will enable you to be successful. But it's also it's not enough just to have technical skills, you need to have much broader interpersonal skills, communication skills are so many things that actually, girls do extremely well. You know, the empathy and those skills combined with technology mean you can be incredibly successful. But there are lots of companies I don't think you should pigeonhole yourself. pigeonhole yourself. If you think about a company like Deloitte, we do enormous numbers of different things. And there are lots of places that you could start at and potentially move into other areas. And there are lots of companies like that, that have a space where you can be more of a generalist and specialise as you go through. And and, you know, we are doing more and more in terms of sustainability. I talked about the services that we're providing to clients. And there are a number of businesses that are developing sustainability services that are working on technologies that are going to transform the future of really exciting opportunities for people that they might not have thought about, but will potentially change the world, in my husband's nephews, who are in their early 20s, both top engineers, but who are both working in companies where they're developing technology that will make a difference. And that is, it's There are so many interesting different things you could do. But it doesn't have to be in engineering, changing the world could be in any, any business. If you want to change the world, you can do it just through the decisions you make about what you're going to do in your personal life. We talk about our people making responsible choices, we want them to go home, and encourage the people they live with, to make responsible climate choices.

Josh Lavorini  25:28  
carrying on with career skills more generally, and I suppose you'd say qualities that suit you to specific careers. What would you say is a key attribute or a set of key attributes for someone who might want to work in audit or advisory services? And what is it about this role that particularly appeal to you?

Sharon Thorne  25:47  
Okay, so you know, I first came across the, the audit role at the university careers fair. And I joined our monistrol office audit practice as a graduate in 1986. And I was taken by the opportunity to get to understand how businesses work to visit manufacturing and construction sites, understand supply chains, delve into company's financial statements, and ensure that what they're reporting truly reflects what has been happening in the business. And I could see the value that this brings to society as it allows consumers, investors, those in capital markets, society more broadly, to have confidence in businesses, I found this enormously rewarding. And of course, we'll see the impact of this increase with more and more organisations reporting on their societal impact and their sustainability activities. And people will want confidence that what they're reading is based on fact, and is not just a term that we hear a lot of now greenwashing, the skill set required for audit and advisory really broad, but there are a few skills to highlight the I think it's important to be curious and have an interest in really understanding how different types of businesses tick. so that you understand if what you're seeing in the numbers make sense. So for example, at the moment, in many industries, you'd expect increased salary costs, lengthened supply chains, more expensive raw materials, and of course, energy costs at the moment. Is that what you're seeing in the numbers? And if not, is there something wrong somewhere, so it's actually less about being good with numbers and more about spotting patterns. And you'll need to be able to manipulate and analyse analyse large data sets, and articulate it all in clear and creative formats. But for both audit and advisory roles, you need tact and diplomacy, mixed with a steeliness because you need to have a trusted relationship with your client. But you also need to be able to deliver difficult messages and to stand by them when they challenge you. Good communication skills are crucial. Being able to clearly articulate your ideas your team and clients in an easy to digest way, is key to working in a fast moving and dynamic environment. And it helps you to build relationships and trust with your colleagues and clients. And in order, I think there's sometimes a perception that the role is quite technical. And of course, aspects are that it's a lot about talking to people and understanding, for example, how they identify manage risk, how they ensure they have the right controls. And for this, you need to like people, you know, getting to know them and building relationships with them is really important. And that ability to build relationships to want to get to know people and develop trust is also crucial in advisory. It's a lot about understanding the problem asking the right questions, and building the clients trust that the proposed solution is the right one for them. And then finally, in order you you do need to know your accounting standards, which can be quite complex.

Josh Lavorini  28:51  
What advice would you give to a younger version of yourself or young people more generally, who want to make a mark on the world of business?

Sharon Thorne  29:02  
Okay, so I suppose three, three tips. Firstly, I think it's really important to, to know what you want or know what's important to you think about what what are you passionate about? What are your strengths, focus on those, I think life is too short to do other things that you're not enjoying. And you're much more likely to do well if you believe in and enjoy what you're doing. It's good to have a vision of what you want out of life, your career and your personal life. And then put steps in place to achieve your ambitions. Now there could be small steps, you know, it's a journey. And I referenced earlier, you know, that you should see as your career as a corporate lattice, not a ladder that you might choose to take some time out to have a pause. And everyone's idea of success is different. It may not all be work related. That's the other thing you know, it's important to be fulfilled and have a sense of purpose. The second thing is don't be a barrier. You know, really go off Do what you do what you want. And don't let doubt about your ability or suitability for a role hold you back. imposter syndrome, you know, can be a big barrier. For everyone, it's especially it can be especially true for women, but it does affect men. You know, a good example of things that can affect women, you show a job description to a male and female that the same ability, and the woman starts picking out all the things she can't do. I apologise, this is a generalisation. But the man sort of says, Oh, you know, I'll be able to do that, that's fine. Don't worry about the things they can't do. And then finally, I would say, You're enjoy the journey, not just the end goal, you need to have fun when you're on your journey, because it could be a long one. And it's, it's not just about, you know, life isn't just about what happens outside of work, life is all of your experiences. And many of us spend a very significant proportion of our lives and time at work. So it's really important to make that time enjoyable and rewarding, as well.

Matthew Cheung  31:03  
Brilliant, Sharon, it's been fascinating to speak to you nd also hear about your story where you've kind of broken through those glass ceilings, and now you're in a position to make a change. I think as an ending point, is there is there one thing that people could take away in terms of the diversity and inclusion piece that they could do, like right now, regardless, if you're if you're a leader and a CEO in the company, or you're just starting your career, is there one, or maybe a few things that would be really important to start thinking about or implementing now.

Sharon Thorne  31:38  
I think if you're a female, I think I just would say, I'd encourage you to, you know, whatever it is that you want to do, absolutely go for it. I do think that women can often hold themselves back and women may not be encouraged enough, I just really encourage all women that you can achieve whatever you want to achieve. If you put your mind to it, it applies to everyone. But I would just push women a bit more. I think that the general point and I referenced it is just creating truly inclusive cultures and supportive cultures and getting rid of micro aggressions. They are the things that can really affect women in the workplace and, and people from other, you know, minority backgrounds. So that is what I really believe we have to change.

Matthew Cheung  32:28  
Brilliant. Thank you very much, Sharon. I appreciate you joining us today. And thank you also Josh.

Sharon Thorne  32:34  
Great to be with you. Thanks very much. Lovely to meet you, Matt and Josh.