The Walker Colt, Texas Rangers, Comanches and Kiowa with GW Campbell

We sit down with GW Campbell and talk about shooting the Walker Colt, how it changed the face of war on the plains. And we hear how GW came to be at a ceremony when the remains of the great Kiowa chiefs Satank and Satanta were transferred to the Comanches in the early '60s.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

And now here's Gary Lewis. Next, next on Fox. But I undersold him when I said he was cogent. He's far beyond cogent.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

In fact, I think he's better than he's ever been. Intellectually, um, analytically.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Thanks for coming on the show. So, what we've got here, I know you probably haven't listened to it before. We've got a podcast called Gary Lewis Outdoors. And this is where I talk about big game hunting around the West and around the world. And sometimes we talk about guns, steelhead fishing sometimes. Sure. And just whatever it is I happen to be interested in at the moment. And so right now I'm writing a story for Rifle and Handguns magazine. It was published by Wolf Publications, they're based in Prescott, Arizona. And that's why I've got this big old thing here on the table.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Now you recognize this as a Colt Walker Revolver 44. And so this was the most powerful handgun made until the until 1935 when they brought out the 357 Magnum.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Yeah. So this is the state gun, the state handgun of Texas. The state of Texas, right. Which is where you're from.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Tejas.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Tejas. Okay. So you you grew up in Texas. Yes. And brought yourself to Central Oregon, but what was Texas like in the 1950s, uh 1960s?

SPEAKER_01 1:57

I I started riding horses when I was five. My uh grandfather decided I needed uh a horse, but he brought me a donkey. This donkey was hard to deal with. Yeah. And he was stubborn. And one time, one time uh he stopped, I couldn't get him to move. And I got off the donkey, left him in the road, which is still on our pl property, walked back to the house and got my mom, and I said, Mom, this donkey, he don't want to move. He's broke. So she drove her 55 Ford Fairlane, and we tied the reins to the bumper, and we got him to move back to the house. And I said, I'm done with this animal. I would kick on him, I would do everything, but he just put his head down and nope, I ain't moving.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Both my mom and my grandma drove Ford fair lanes at different times, and so did I. I I own two fair lanes.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Yeah, this was one of those two-door with power windows and power seats. Those were nice cars. I wish I had that car. Yeah, you do. Yeah, what color was that? It was lavender with a white top. Oh, very nice. It was really nice. My dad really loved it, but then my mom got into a wreck with it and we had to get another car. Yeah. But I rode in the back and there were no seat belts. You go from one end to the other.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Oh, yeah, yeah. You're you're flying around to the back of those cars, weren't you?

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Yeah. I used to ride up in the package tray on the back of our 66 fair lane. Uh, and uh that was when my grandma drove it, and then I ended up having that car later.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

And it was restored by that time, and it was a fast car.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Before that, we had a Buick, a blue Buick, and that was a big car too. And I did the same thing you did. I got up in between the wing, the there was that trough in there. Hey, that's a great place to take a nap.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

It was a perfect place when you're a little kid. I didn't want to get too big where I had to grow out of that.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

No.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

That's true. Okay, so growing up in the 50s and 60s in Texas, you uh you were identified as needing a horse, so you got a donkey.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Well then after that, I got another Bay Mare, Trixie, and uh the man that surprised the horse, his name was uh Guy Bradley. Guy Bradley was a great guy, and I I cared a lot about him because I felt like he was a guy that really helped me get started in riding horses. He didn't give me a whole lot of training, he said just get on it and ride. You know, but my grandfather was he was pretty much of a horse whisperer. He knew a lot about uh horses, yeah. And he would tell me certain things to try and what to do. He says, keep take that horse away from the barn. Don't don't make him barn sour. And uh I had one horse that would rear up, and finally uh we my dad sent him off to get some cowboy to work on him, train him, but he didn't do any good. I finally broke him. And it took a mesquite limb over the head to get him. The big thing was the limb broke and fell in front of his face, he never reared up again. And uh from then on I learned a trick. You could get a big nut and tie it to the bridle, and when they'd go up and that'd come back down and swat him on the head. You didn't have to carry a stick. Oh and I broke a horse for a guy when I moved to Oregon that had the same problem. I said, I I can fix him, I can change that. Uh-huh. And I put that big nut on there and he reared up once and I quacked him. He didn't ever do it again. Yeah, well, that's a real gentle way to It's a gentle way. And I most of the horses I broke, uh, I did it gently. Kind of like uh the guy that used to live in Primeville that used a cane. I did something similar to him. I never forced the I let the horses become close to me. Or Lou Starrett out of Oklahoma, who will take a horse that's not broke and break him in a mower while he's preaching. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Yeah. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Oh. And uses it to share the gospel. Yes, yes. He's a very interesting guy, and I've sat in on a lot of his things before. When he used to come up here to Oregon, he used to do a thing in Sisters once and uh at Shiloh and a couple of places in the Northwest.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Well, you know, when I don't remember how the two of us met each other, but uh I've thought of you as being a circuit writer, and you you kind of I've done that particular thing, and you know, what had kind of inspired me is uh I started pastoring churches in the early 60s or the latter 60s in Texas, and that never fit me. I've always been more of an evangelist type person. And so I do do a street ministry with ropes, and I do uh ministry behind the shoots with cowboys, and that fits me right down the road where I should be.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we have a we have a bunch of mutual friends, but um, we're gonna we're gonna talk about a bunch of different things here today. Let's talk about this Walker Colt, this revolver. The barrel on it is nine inches long, and it's got a real nice deep blue finish to it.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

It's got color case hardening on the lever, the loading lever here, and then on the frame.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

And then it's got brass trigger guard and then brass um grip uh frame and then walnut stalks, and then the cylinder is engraved like the originals were, I believe, in a battle scene. It's a roll engraving on a battle scene. And what you see when you really study that engraving is it's a battle on horses, which tells you what this gun was made for. Oh, yeah. So this is a four and a half pound revolver. And if you've ever watched the outlaw Jesse James, or not, I mean the outlaw Josie Wales, he had two of them in that movie. Yes. And there You carried extra cylinders. You would carry extra cylinders, and you really wouldn't want to carry them on a belt because if you had two on a belt, and you always want two at least, yes, then um that's nine pounds of something hanging down off your belt because uh each one weighs four and a half pounds. But I got to shoot this last week, and the first thing I wanted to do was shoot it out at a long range, and so I was gonna shoot at a hundred yards, but my target blew over. So there was a propane tank, an empty propane tank up on the hill. This is on private land where we're shooting, and I fired one round uh at the propane tank and missed, and the second hit the tank at 128 yards, and then every shot after that was kind of a round, and I thought if that had been an adversary on a horse, I would have hit the horse a few times.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Yes, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Which is which was what that was kind of a secondary thing in a battle if you couldn't hit the guy you wanted to get the guy's horse, knock the horse out from under. Right. So this gun was uh trotted out in 1847, and and it was Sam Walker's designs that were brought to Samuel Colt. And so this gun saved Colt's business.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

And it saved the Texas Rangers from getting killed.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Right. Because up until that time they only had black powder. They had single shot. Single shot black powder.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

And you shoot off one shot and you probably got an arrow in you.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Yes, because they could shoot. I mean, I've shot a bow and arrow very fast. They could shoot 50 times a minute if they had if they had that many arrows, and if you had uh one single-shot pistol, right, then you better be retreating in a hurry. So this was a huge game changer, and they would put the pistols in holsters on the saddle, yes, so that they could dismount and then take the gun, because it was they're called a dragoon revolver. And so I looked up dragoon, and what that means is among other things, it's a soldier who fights a mounted infantryman. And so you would go to the fight on horseback, and then you would get off the horses, and one guy would hold four horses, and three guys would go to the fight.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

And the guy holding the horses, he was in just as much danger as anybody else. Sure. But I'd still I'd rather hold the horses.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Yes. Well the the the good thing about some of that is a lot of times a lot of the people didn't always connect with their bullets. Yeah. It's not like Hollywood.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

When you're shooting one of these things horseback or um any of that, it's gonna throw you off.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Right. Yeah. And these weren't particularly accurate with the round ball. I imagine they could be more accurate if you were using a tapered bullet or a rifle bullet. Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

So I just I think it's pretty interesting. I'm getting to know it. Um the cylinder will hold um up to 60 grains of powder in each chamber with a bullet. And so back in those days the metallurgy wasn't real good. And so you would have some ruptured cylinders and stuff like that. But you could really launch a bullet a long way. So which is why I wanted to see could I hit a man-sized target at over a hundred yards? And so, yeah, absolutely I could. Not every time, though.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Well, the the Walkers is what saved uh Texas Rangers many times after that. And um basically when they came into using uh a pistol such as this, uh it changed the whole ball game. Right. Because we're they were dealing with a the Kwana Parker Comanche group. Uh they started riding horses, they were the Calvary or the harsh whispers of the West. Right. And they had been riding horses, they stole their horses from Taos, Pueblo Indens, where the Spaniards took uh horses in there, and they they got away with those horses, and they became pretty much over the whole plains area, you know, and they were hard to deal with.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Mm-hmm. Iquana was their maybe their last chief great leader Nakona and his dad, Peter Peter Nakona. Yeah, yeah. And then uh Iron Jacket. Iron Jacket Iron Jacket was probably killed with one of these.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Yeah. In the in the battle at um well, it was in the Antelope Hills anyway.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

And I don't remember the name of that battle, but it was on a creek.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

And they they ended up running into a small camp of five lodges at seven in the morning, and they engaged them, and then they engaged the larger camp about eleven in the morning, maybe it was, and then and then there was a third camp upstream and they engaged them, and there was like 78 Indians killed, jerk jerkeys, and then and it wasn't just I mean, I'm Comanches. It wasn't just Comanches, it was Kiowas and a few Apaches. A few Apaches, yes. Right. I'm glad you know this story. How did I know that? I I am glad you know it. I I know how you know it.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

I know a lot of history uh that goes back to a lot of those Indian things. In fact, I have a friend in Ben who is he has researched Apaches to the Ultiman. He he is the Apache man. His name is Terry Brown. He's written several books, in fact, and has some of them online. But uh I got into learning more about the Comanche mainly because my grandfather wrote in Quanta Parker's village at the age of 13. Most of his friends were all Indians growing up while he was a teenager. And then when I lived in Taos, New Mexico, I became friends with a lot of Pueblo Indians. And I learned a lot about history and Taos as well from the Native Americans there.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

It's really great to hear their perspective on it because they're like the conscience of America, you know. And you know, they don't always they don't always get it right, you know, but my conscience doesn't always get it right either.

SPEAKER_03 15:55

No.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

But but we're all in this together, really.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

We're all, you know, it's like I've told several people, I said, what kind of blood do you have in your veins? Is it green or flak or blue? No, it's all red. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

That's just the way God made us. Yeah, yeah. Okay, now back um five years ago, or maybe it was six years ago, I was driving along the highway about two miles from here, and I saw about 80 head of elk out in the field, and I pulled over, and I was watching them, and it was just so great to see the elk um so close, yeah, and and watch them. They were in uh they weren't all worked up, they were just feeding, and then here comes you. Uh, you came driving along, and and of course, you know, we knew each other um barely. Yes. And so we started talking, and then you wanted to pray with me, and so we did that. And yes, and um, that was during COVID, so it was one of those interactions where uh you know some people were afraid to talk to other people during that time. Oh, yeah, you know, but um what was really interesting is we started talking about Texas while we're watching the elk, and then you said I helped rebury Satanta and Satank. Yes, and I knew exactly who you were talking about. These were Kiowa chiefs, and I had just read the story a week before, and so then here's you coming in to tell me about reburying these Indians, and I knew how they died. Yes, and so I wanted you to share a little bit about that story.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

One of them died at trying to escape, he was able to get loose en route to Huntsville, the other one died in Huntsville, is what I understand. Yeah, you're right about that. And um they were friends of Quanta Parker's.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Right. Um at that the at that time they would have been the elder statesmen, yes, you know, the older warriors. Yes. Um Tank, uh let's see, Satank, I have some information here. He was killed in 1871. So he was about uh he was 71 years old when he was killed. Yes. And he was killed uh, as they said, uh trying to escape from a wagon, and they were taking him to court and they were planning to hang him. Right. That's what they told him. Yeah. And he was gonna be tried for murder, and then they were gonna hang him. And so he threw his blanket over his head and uh while he's singing his death song and uh but he's while he was under the blanket, he was chewing his skin uh away from his handcuffs so that he could break uh away, and he had a knife secreted in his blanket and he used that and stabbed a soldier, and then uh didn't he get a gun to grab a gun too at that point? I think so.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

He got a g um and then he was shot.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

And then he was shot, yeah. So that was the tank, and so uh his picture is really um it's a famous picture. He's sitting there with his hands crossed and he's got quite a bit of a smile on his face, and he's got a robe, it looks like a bearskin maybe that's um half draped around his shoulder, as a fine-looking Indian at the uh, you know, in 1870, that was one year before he was killed. And then Satanta, he was actually um given a life sentence and I mean given a death sentence. Yes, and then the um same one who sentenced him to death and commuted it to life.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

And then so I I think he ended up dying in prison.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

But he died in prison in Huntsville, and then uh, of course, they were buried there in Texas, but then my grandfather was heavily involved in Buderill and Dion Affairs, his name was Bruce Burnett Campbell, and he worked out that uh they would move the remains to Fort Sill in the Indian Cemetery. So he was invited by the Native Americans to come and be involved in that. And uh I went with him and you were 15 years old. I was 15 years old, and I knew who the ceremonies were for. I met a lot of Native American people there, Kwana Parker's granddaughter, who was also named Cynthia Ann. Oh, so she was named after her two grandmother granddaughters that were named after Cynthia Ann.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Cynthia Ann Parker.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Yes. And uh they had a great ceremony. They did uh they shot off some rifle rounds, they did uh a four military uh burial type thing for the Native Americans, plus some Indian uh dancing and uh then kind of as a freedom march, a young Native American come riding on a white horse without any bridle and reared up the horse straight up and came back down. And that made a real I was a horseman, yeah, but that really I'm gonna have to try that without a bridle. So I went home and started teaching myself. My horse, whether I didn't have to use a bridle anymore. Really? Yes. I saw this Native American do it. I said, Well, I can do that.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Yeah. Okay, what was the journey like from where they had been buried to uh Fort Sill? You were taking them to Lawton and Fort Sill, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:19

They were brought in, the remains were brought in fr by uh Texas and given to the Native Americans, and they put them in the Indian uh cemetery.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

I see. And then what was how long was the journey from point A to point Oh you the state of Texas brought the state of Texas brought the remains and my grandfather uh was kind of the official from the state of Texas. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Because he was involved in the Indian affairs.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

So there was basically a ceremonial transfer of the remains to the Comanches. Yes. Yep. Okay. That's that's uh interesting. I just think it's such a fabulous story because for me personally I I have cousins who are Lakota, and then I have friends from a lot of different tribal backgrounds. But I had just read about Satanta and Satank, you know, in that in that same week that you told me about being there at the transfer. And and it was just such a great link for me because uh I've been fascinated by these topics my whole life. Sure. And and then here was a link to somebody who was there. Who was yeah, and um you you um didn't know them, obviously, but but they had been they'd been dead for at that point um eighty years, yes, or eighty plus years, but you were part of the ceremony that uh helped put them in the ground and lay them at rest. And that's pretty sweet.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Well, you know, part of that I think had to do mainly from my grandfather. And um in fact I had a history that my grandfather wrote for me that told me a lot of things that he did as a youngster. I wished I'd uh asked him more questions now. But I do have a lot of it that comes to me every now and then. And uh when we for instance, when we first moved, my grandfather said when he first came to the ranch where I grew up on, he said there were buffalo bones everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Oh yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Piles from when the buffalo hunters went through and I thought, wow, that's interesting. The buffalo were here. Yeah. Then about maybe when I was in high school, I dug up a buffalo. Oh, did you? And it was so old that the skull just disintegrated, but I could tell it was buffalo from the shape. Yeah, and the only thing left intact was the teeth. So I took several of the teeth and gave them to my grandpa. I said, This is the last of the buffalo. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Oh wow. Yeah. You know, I I think a person should get should go hunt bison if they get the chance. I've done it. Yes, and um I'm planning to do it again. I would love to do it myself. Yeah. Okay, now you're involved, uh, you're running for the Deschutes County Commission in Deschutes County, Oregon. Um why?

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Well, I decided I would do that because I wanted to help the county. I've been here a long time. I don't want us to get higher taxes. I want to keep it uh planned growth and I want to use common sense. I've also been on an irrigation board in my past for 10 years. I know a lot about water, a lot about water rights, a lot about the aquifer. And, you know, just like this year, we're gonna be depleting that aquifer because we don't have much snow coming down. We didn't get hardly any.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Right now, our snowpack is at 28% from what I when I checked yesterday. And if we don't get any more snow, that's that's uh well catastrophe.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

It it affects everything. It affects um our summertime, it affects that we're gonna have more fires, it affects that uh things will dry out quicker, it affects tourists coming into this country. It affects everything. It affects our livelihood.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Yeah, it does. And there won't be enough water for irrigation in those kind in that kind of scenario. Plus wells may fail.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Since we have the time that I was on swallower irrigation, we started a lot of the piping. A lot of people realize the piping stops there was about 40 to 50 percent waste in most open ditches. When they went to piping, we had wells started failing then because all this water goes into the water table even though it seeps through the uh ditches, and a lot of that's being eliminated. And so we're gonna have more wells fail, I think. Which is hard.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Yeah. Hard decisions have to be made, and that's why you want people who have have been through you know ha have a farming, ranching background and uh that understand the kind of challenges that go along with that.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

I've been an air gator since I was eight. Yeah. Quick enough, old enough to carry a pipe. Right. In Texas, we didn't just use uh two inch and three inch, we used six inch. And Texas has long since they have a lot of reservoirs.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

And the water table is not near as deep as it is here. Most of the time it's about twenty feet. So people could hand dig a well. But you know, they tried that around here in places, but it's too deep.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Yep, yep. Okay, well, I know you're on a time schedule today. Yes. I'm glad we got to talk. I love the pistol. I want to get to shoot it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Um, so how can people learn more about you? They can always give me a holler. My phone probably gonna be posted out there for everybody to see. Okay, it's I'll be glad to sit down and have a cup of coffee with them or something.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Gary Campbell, and you call yourself GW, and you're running for candidate for county commissioner position number three, they can find you at GW CircuitRider at gmail.com. Yes. And if uh for some people might not know what a circuit rider is, but a circuit rider is a person who would in the old days travel from precinct to precinct and preach the word of God.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

And uh Jesse James's father was one of those people.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

And the three sisters were named by a circuit riding preacher.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Faith open charity. Yes. Yep. Okay, well, um Gary Campbell, good luck on your run for County Commission. Canning Commissioner position.com. Thanks to our sponsors, Nazwork Incorporated, Warren's Golfmount, Camp Chaplin, Food Area, Wrestle Lake Resort, Arson, Arson Oil, T SNF, War Mattress, Professor Bakes, Dallas Area Chamber of Commerce, Bring Pilot, Aqua's USA, Smart, West Coast Float, Frontier Roast Coffee, High Desert Tactical, and Thanks for listening. Uh, we appreciate you out there, and uh, we want to bring you good conversations and tune in again soon. We're gonna have another episode up quick.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

Hey, it's Baron. Listen, can we get together?