Mountain Lions That Murder Goats with Eric Lee

Our guest is Eric Lee, a cougar depredation specialist in western Oregon. When a mountain lion killed his wife's favorite goat, Eric realized he could do something about it. Next, he found himself helping neighbors and now this quiet unassuming man has found himself helping livestock owners in his area deal with problem lions. Cougar thru the doggy door. Cats that thrill kill. That spree kill. That hunt in groups. Some of what you will hear here is startling. Thanks Troy Rodakowski for co-hosting.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

And now, here's Gary Lewis. Next, next on Fox. But I understand when I said he's cogent. He's far beyond cogent. In fact, I think he's better than he's ever been. Intellectually, um, analytically.

SPEAKER_04 0:27

You have found a podcast where we talk about big game money around the West and around the world, and we could not help doing this one. Today we've got Eric Lee as a guest on the show. And Eric Lee is from the Vanita and Elmyra uh neighborhood of Western Oregon. And then doing co-host duties today, it's Troy Rodokowski. And so anyway, guys, thanks for coming on the show today. So the Vanita Elmira Predator Watch. And it's Eric Lee. And you, Eric, are a depredation specialist, a cougar depredation specialist. So what does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:16

So what that means in a nutshell is um we have a very high population of cougars in all of Oregon, but um it's very high in the western side. Um, and what happens is we get livestock depredation. Um Cougars will start to find out the livestock is easy, it's not getting pinned up, it's not getting put away, and they'll start to uh they'll actually start to go after livestock more than wild animals. This obviously brings up the fact of public safety issues. And generally when a cougar starts in on a flock of livestock, they don't stop. So they will come and kill all of them. So uh somebody will call me and say they've had a goat or a sheep or a horse or a dog or something killed, and then I will go and investigate to see if it was in fact a cougar or, you know, because we do have bears, we've got dogs, we've got coyotes and all that. So I will go investigate that. And if the the uh landowner wants to stop the cat, then I will work on stopping the cat.

SPEAKER_04 2:15

You probably are educating landowners almost every day, I would guess, because they have now they've lost a goat, and you know that that that lion's gonna come back. And the landowner probably doesn't know that the lion's gonna come back.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Correct. And I and I run into a lot of cases where they think, well, it only took one, and that's probably all it needs, and it's never gonna come back. The problem is, is like I tell people that once it's came in and it's got that goat or that sheep or that horse and it's been able to feed on it, you're now a 7-Eleven. It's gonna come back whenever it wants. And beyond that, what I've noticed is it also they will use that for training for their their younger ones. So I've I've I've stopped a lot of females with smaller ones um on farms, um, as well as I've stopped a lot of juvenile males somewhere between about the two and six-year-old range. Um, the the the you know, the younger ones that are dispersing, because they'll disperse from their mother around two years old, and then they're going out on their own. And then um a lot of the cats that I stop are are younger cats. Um, some of them with older females, eight, nine, ten-year-old females with a couple year and a half olds, or the flip side of that, it'll be two to five-year-old male young males by themselves.

SPEAKER_04 3:39

What is something that most uh people don't know about cougars? Like, like for for me and Troy, for instance, we're hunters. Troy's killed a cougar, I haven't. Um, what's something that might surprise me?

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Um I I would say probably the biggest thing that would probably surprise you that you've been a lot closer to a lot of cougars than you've ever known. Um they are very um, you know, seclusive. But at the same time, what we're what we're noticing over time is that in the past through 30, 40 years ago, you didn't hardly ever see cougars. It just, you know, if somebody said they saw a cougar was running across the road or was it was very, very rare, right? When you saw one, it was like, wow, that's pretty cool. I just got to see a cougar. Now it's the norm. Um and I feel like with since since the dog law got passed in '94, when they took the dogs away, the the cougars had shifted a little bit because we're not putting any pressure on them. We're not giving them anything to fear with humans. Back when we're running with dogs, they were w we were instilling a fear in them. Um, and now, you know, this was over 30 years ago. So now we got generations of cats that have never had to deal with humans and never had to deal with dogs. And they are an apex predator, right? So the only predator to a cougar is man or wolf, and we don't have enough wolves around here to keep them in check.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

And man's in your neighborhood, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Right, right. So Eastern Oregon, but Eastern Oregon does have a, you know, I think there's a population of central and eastern Oregon, I think throughout Oregon, I think it's right around 278 wolves now. And that's not going to scratch the surface when you've got almost 8,000 cougars. Um so that's so their only other predator would be man, correct? Well, when we're not doing anything, when we're trying to do you know, hunting hunting success rate on cougars under normal hunting situation is less than 2% in Oregon. There's so when you take that and you think, okay, less than 2% is actually being killed under normal hunting when there's thousands of tags being given every year. That is a very, very, very small slice of the pie. Um when we were running dogs, we had a lot higher percentage kill rate. And it wasn't as high as you would think, be able to run dogs, the kill percentage. But what people don't understand with running dogs is not all those cats are getting killed. The beautiful beauty about running dogs after cats is that these hunters can go in with their dogs and they can run a cat, and they can run that cat up into a tree, and they can look at it and go, you know what, that looks like a three or four-year-old female, let's let her go. And they do that a lot. More cats are ran up a tree and left than are ever killed. But what they've done in that, and they still do this in Montana, people see it on TV all the time with the the you know the frontier shows or whatever, but a guy, his job is to do nothing but go and run these cats off ranches with dogs. So what those hunters have done is they've taken and they've pushed that cat up into the woods and they've scared it with the dogs and with the humans. There's cats up in the tree looking down on all these dogs and these humans walking around. They scared. So he doesn't want to deal with that anymore. So he's getting aboard dogs and humans. So you think about Benita Elmira, let's say we've got 40 guys that run dogs in Benita Elmira. They get off work, you know, they want to go exercise their dogs. So they go to the nearest woods around Benita Elmira, and they go and they run, let their dogs out. The dogs may strike a cat, they may not. But what we've done, and if they do, great, and they run it up the tree and they walk away from it. What we've done is we built an imaginary moat around Benita Elmira that, hey, you don't go to that dark side because that's where the humans and the dogs come from. You don't cross that line because that's where you'll get in trouble. We haven't had that for 30-something years. So now what we hear is people are walking trails and going up around Skinner's Butte and Spencer's Butte and all these little fall creek and all this, and are running into cats where the cats aren't scared of them, now they're curious. And then they look at their animals that they're walking as food. There's been there's been dogs taking right off the leashes. I just read a story where a cat actually went through a doggy door on a house in California, came into the house and killed their dog in the house. Um, this was just a couple days ago. So my point is the fear that we were instilling in these cats is no longer being instilled. And to go back to what you were saying about being surprised, every time that you've walked by a cat and you've done nothing, you just approved that cat to do whatever he wants, right? Oh man, you know, so And you didn't even know it.

SPEAKER_04 8:40

When you when you say that, I I know that what you say is true, that I've been watched by far more cougars than than um than I've seen. Um, but but also I never thought about that I've taught them something by walking by them. They've learned from that that they're free to do what they want as long as they stay still. And yeah, exactly. That that just becomes, you know, that's a more dangerous cat than it was before I taught it, whatever it is. Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Right. And I have videos of cats that um and even the work that I do, when I go in and and I'm and I'm working on a cat, when I when a farmer landowner calls me and says, Yeah, it drove my sheep or goat over somewhere, and I go and I find it back in the brush in their pasture somewhere. Those cats are never, never more than 100 yards away from me, sometimes way closer. And I know that. It's their choice if they want to defend their kill or not. You know, by the gracious of God, they haven't yet while I've been there, but I've had them chirp at me. I have suspected to where they are at, and I've actually set up cameras to see if I'm right, and I've been right to where 20 feet away there's a there's a hollowed stump, and I think, you know, he might be in there and set up cameras, set up what I do on the kill, and then watch the cat walk out of that hole. Um, so they're never very far away. I've there's times I've done my setup on the kill and I've caught the cat four minutes later. And some of these are in the daytime. So, meaning that cat was within feet of me, just waiting for me to to to leave his kill alone, and then he'd come investigate and see what I did. Because the cats are used to coyotes and bears and whatever else, finding their kill and and and eating on it, moving it maybe. So they're used to that. And they don't they don't need to defend it because they know they can come back to it. Um, the biggest thing about cats, a lot of people don't really think of is that cats don't fear anything but injury. Okay. So injury is the only thing that's gonna put a cat down, besides obviously death. But so you think about in the cat world, they've got three things they gotta think about. That's it. They don't have house payments, car payments, they got three things that they have to do. The only way they can do those three things is they've got to eat. The only way they can eat is they've got to kill. If they are not up to snuff in everything that they were born with, their claws, their eyes, sight, their hearing, their stealthiness, everything, if they're not up to snuff to that, they can't kill. If they can't kill, they can't eat, they won't survive. So that being said, when you walk by that cat and you didn't hurt him and you didn't do anything to him, he didn't have he doesn't have to fear you. But he goes up to a big horse or a big bull or something, he's gotta, he's gotta figure out his odds. Can I take that animal down without getting gored, get kicked, stomped, get a broken leg, lose an eye. I've caught cats with eyes missing. So their biggest fear is injury. When a person walks by and nothing happens to them, there's no reason to fear that human walking by. If they are walking down a trail and they come head-to-head with a human, they're gonna remember, well, they don't do anything to me, and they might walk right towards you. They may actually even get aggressive because now they feel like that I don't have to, that doesn't hurt me, I can be aggressive towards that. So um they don't fear um, you know, cars and stuff because they don't know, just like deer and baby deer, they don't know what a car can do to them. Um they know it's noisy and it's fast and it's coming at them, and then and and in that situation, and most times they're passive. Um but as far as in a setting in their setting, and you walk by and you don't even know it, but they know it, and they don't know that you don't know. Right. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 12:36

And you walk by the key point. They don't know that you don't know their exactly.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Yeah. Exactly. And I've had that situation happen um when I've gone in after cougars. I I always have to look, you know, if I have one caught, there might be more with it. And that happens a lot, and I have to look around and find the ones with it. But even though when I've had a cat caught, I have gone up into that cat and the cat and I use thermal when I go in on these cats. Okay. And I've had the cats within feet of me and they're acting like that I don't know they're there. So I could walk in and walk out, and the cat may not do anything and he would be just like, oh well, that wasn't so bad. Um so it's there it it's very much changed from the way it was years ago where if a cat if you went by a cat, it would probably run off. Or when people did see a cat, it was it was all you saw was its butt taking off. And now it's not that way. They will still they're almost curious to this point. And sadly enough, I think it's come to the point like it has in California, that um they're not looking at a curiosity, but more of is that food. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah. So that's that's the scary part of it. Now, I don't, you know, the biggest thing I don't want to be is a fearmonger to people, and I don't want people thinking, oh, you know, don't go outside. It's not like that at all. We just have to be aware of the the adaptation that's going on with these with these apex predators, because like I tell people, we're not talking about butterflies and crickets here. We're talking about an apex predator that can kill humans. Um their numbers are we're by geographical um cougar habitat in Oregon, we should be able to comfortably sustain 3,300 cats. Um we are close to 8,000 according to ODFW numbers now.

SPEAKER_04 14:29

So we're more than that's what that's what they'll admit to. And um, I remember when I when I posited that number a few years ago, I got a sharp reprimand saying that's not the correct number. And that was from a person in an office who doesn't do any um the research, you know. And and that but now they're admitting to the number that I had come up with. I mean, you know, and I wasn't I wasn't breaking any research ground.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

I was just and and and credibility to them, right, and and credibility to them, you know, it's gotta be difficult to be able to tell honestly because they're going off mortality rates, right? Right, that's right. So by going off mortality rates, as mortality rates they could be way off on numbers because who's who, you know, if you log an area and a lot of cats are trying to move across high five, and let's say all of a sudden in 2026, 30 more cats got killed by car strikes. The mortality rate went up. So do we say that, well, that means the population went up, or did we just have an anomaly somewhere that causes a lot of cats to have to move or to cross a highway, or did, or did we have a big fire that took a lot of cats out? It's really hard to be able to, so credit to them to be able to try to come up with a number. I don't like to bash ODFW on that as bad as everybody does because we know we have a huge population. We have somewhere around 44,000 bears in Oregon. Um, it's gotta be excuse me, it's gotta be very difficult to try to get an accurate number on that. Um, Oregon also is one of the few states that also counts cubs in their numbers, which I agree with it. I do, because if you want to get an overall population density, you gotta know what all's in there, right? So whether the and and if you want to use mortality rate of the cubs versus adults, okay, you can do that. There's gonna be obviously a higher mortality rate on the cubs than it will the adults um because there's a lot more, you know, they're they're more fragile, let's put it that way. They're they're easier to succumb to injury and death when they're younger.

SPEAKER_04 16:40

Also, the big males will eat the cubs.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Yes, yes, they will.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

Um Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

So um I would say that the by my work and and mind you, I've done most of my work within about a hundred and I'd say it's a hundred and hundred and twenty miles from my home in Elmyra. Um, I've taken out 82 lions in that area, and I've worked on just as many that did not come back to the kills.

SPEAKER_04 17:10

Okay, very interesting observation.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Eric, Eric keeps pretty good stats. He does, he keeps good stats. He's out there, and I'd like to also bring up, you know, we were talking like two percent harvest on cougars, and I think that two percent probably only a half a percent is people actually going out and actually trying to hunt cougars. I you know, I think I think the rest of it is secondary. You're out deer hunting, you're out elk hunting, uh, and you have a cougar come into you or you spot a cougar. Most people there's not a lot of people to actually go out and purposely hunt cougars, which is right unfortunate because I think if Gary and I have talked about this, I think that if more people actually went out and tried, the success rate would definitely increase because of the uh population density of the cougars nowadays.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

So yeah, and I think a lot of that stems on to where it's not the old days, right? I mean, now we've got Facebook, we've got on X maps, we have all these help. Back back in the day, we had to, if we really wanted to be successful, we worked our ass off, right? There's just no way around. There was no way you had to go out and stomp the ground. So even in even with high populations, cougars is probably one of the hardest things to actually try to hunt. So when you get these guys that want their their grabbing posts, is what I call it, where they want to go out and kill something and they want to get it on their Facebook or whatever, and they have to go out and work at it, and all of a sudden it's not very fruitful where they've really got to work at this, or like, you know what, I'm gonna find something else. This is just not worth it. So I see that a lot. I see a lot of people that really go into it with a good heart that they really want to try to take out a line, whether it's for their own trophy or whether it's to try to help manage some lines. But it's this generation is just not there. And I don't want to be picking on generations because I'm an old guy.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Well, it's it's it's yeah, it's the instant gratification generation, you know. I mean, you know, Eric, we're we're from the same. I think Gary, Eric, and I are all from the same generation, so to speak. And like you said, it's change, man. It's like the digital generation now, and it's the instant gratification generation, and it's the I mean sorry to interrupt, but anyway, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

No, and and and you're exactly right. And I think I'm not saying that there's not guys out there that don't work their ass up for it. Um, but I I do notice this this in this generation, there's not as many guys that really want to put in the time because cougar are like a it's like trying to catch a springer and the young quaus standing on the bank.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

Oh, there is a good that's a good analogy.

SPEAKER_04 19:56

And the spring up.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Yeah. So it's it's um, you know what they call it, the thousand cast fish, right? Um, so you have to have a lot of failed attempts, and you really have to put in a commitment to be able to because what a lot of people don't realize, and some veteran guys do, but you might call in a cat 70% of the time when you set up to call in a cat. The problem is that cat has found you way before you ever seen him.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Yeah, you're not even gonna see him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Right. Yeah. So that cat can see you at 200 yards, and he's looking through a hole in the brush the size of a silver dollar with one eye, and he's already found you. And you're never gonna see that. And he's gonna walk away. So, like you said, Troy, is that most of the catches or most of the kills in a normal hunting situation are incidental. And believe it or not, out of that percentage, I would say probably about I would say 10% of that 2%, if you broke it down, would be elk hunters calling for elk.

unknown 21:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

And a cat hears that. Um bobcats are very notorious for coming into turkey hunters. Um, and I know cougars will too, but you just don't see them as as often because the cougars even when I have called in cougars, is I've had a cougar come in and he'll stay a hundred yards away and he'll sit on his butt and just sit there and look around.

SPEAKER_04 21:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

My and my conclusion to that, and this could be completely false, but this is just my opinion of it, is that like I said before, cougars the only thing they fear is injury, right? So if you got a predator call going and you got a rabbit or whatever distress and it's screaming and yelling, okay. Fox, coyotes, bobcats, they're like, hey, that's a meal. I think a cougar is adapted enough where he's going, what's making that thing make that noise? And can it hurt me, right?

SPEAKER_03 21:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

So just like in Wyoming where they've had the problems in Montana, where they have the Problems with the wolves coming in and taking the cougar kills. So I think the cougar is stepping up there and he wants to see why that thing's making the noise before he's going to go into it. He wants to see if there's a bear tearing apart, is it a wolf? Is it whatever it is before he's going to just pop himself out there and make himself known. So they're very methodical like that. Um and I, you know, everybody, and I've talked about it for years about in Montana and Wyoming and stuff where the where the the uh the wolves have actually adapted to knowing that the cougars are way better hunters. So the cougars will go and kill something and the wolves will just trail them. As soon as they kill something, the wolves will just come and take it. Because, like I said, cougars fear the injury. So when a pack of wolves come in, he's like, you know what, I'm out. You guys can have it. And then so what they've adapted to doing is the cougars will go and kill an animal and then take off. Bury it, take off. Kill another animal, bury it, take off, kill another animal and then have time because he slowed the wolves down to catch up with them to feed on it. So I have not I can't say 100% that I've seen that type of stuff here. I have seen many, many multiple kills out of one animal, out of one cougar, where he's killed. I've worked on where he killed 26 in a barn, I've worked on where he's killed 12 in a patch, or 15 in a patch, or nine, four, all sorts of numbers where that's just been one cat. Just came in and killed six or seven and then just drug one off to feed on it. Um I don't I I think that's more of a thrill kill. Um, that's more of a holy crap, you know, because goats are stupid. You can walk right up to them in the middle of the night. They just stand there. Um, I wouldn't say they're stupid, they're just not. They just can't see you at night. And they just don't have that, they're not like deer where they have that prey mentality because they're, you know, the and let's face it, most of these sheeps and goats are hand fed. They people walk right up to them and everything, so they don't have a fear. And they see dogs and they see cats walking around and they just don't know that that other thing with yellow eyes is actually gonna eat them. Um, but even when they do run into a situation at night when a cougar attacks, the other ones will just stand there. They don't really can't see and really don't know what's going on. I've got that stuff on video. I actually had an attack on video from a ring door camera. This guy knew there were cats in yours. He had all his goats in a little pen right in front of his house. Thought I'm gonna bring right up by the front door. Cougar jumped the fence. There's actually two cougars, the mama and a young one. They both jumped the fence. The mama sits down immediately next to the fence. Junior is what I call him, runs over and attacks a goat right in front of the ring door camera. And the other goats are just standing there, just looking at him, like, what what are you doing to Junior? Um, ended up killing three out of that in that pen. Just just killed it and then jump up and go grab another one. So to me, on a younger cat, that would just I think that's kind of a thrill kill. It's like I am my instinct is that's food, I gotta kill it. So I see that a lot. Um and it's you know, it's unfortunate because there's a lot of animals that are just killed for no reason.

SPEAKER_04 25:03

Um so okay. When um when I hear a mountain lion chirp, why? Why is it chirping? Some different reasons.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

There's a couple different reasons. It could be that it's not even chirping at you. Right. It could be chirping to another cat that's nearby and it's just letting you know, hey, there's a there's a stinky human over here coming through our area, just letting you know. The other reason is you probably got pretty close to its kill and it's just letting you know it's there.

SPEAKER_04 25:38

What if I hear it far off in the distance? I don't think it's responding to me. What's going on then maybe? Probably talking to another cat.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Yeah. Yeah, it's probably talking to another cat. And I do have that chirp on video too. When I've uh on a property I did on Sayus Law, there were three lines, adult lines. Uh well, I'd say two subadults and adult, but they were all over 100 pounds. Um and I actually I had earlier in the night I caught two of them and I had one left to catch that was coming in that killed these goats. And this one came in, and I actually got it on video on my trail camera that was set up of the chirping, trying to get find the other ones. You know, where did they go? Um they went home with me, but he didn't know it. And uh but uh so yeah, that chirp is generally there's two reasons. Like I said, I've had them chirp up in a tree with me when I'm on the kill.

SPEAKER_03 26:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

When I know they could see me. Um, so I think what he was trying to do is tell me, hey, that's mine, get away from it.

SPEAKER_03 26:31

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_04 26:33

And I wanted to ask you, what are the ways that are available to you when you have to take care of uh a cat and you haven't caught it yet? What different methods work for you?

SPEAKER_01 26:52

So there's there's several methods that I'm allowed to do under the depredation law. Um the method that I choose to do is I use the kill that they're gonna come back to um and I use traps and I use cameras. So I know the cat. Yep, so I know the cat's gonna be coming back for this kill. Um and so I will use a kill and I will set up traps around the kill, and then I'll use cameras to monitor. These are cell cameras, go straight to my straight to my phone. Okay. And then um, and then I just don't sleep. Um, so once I have it set up and I have the cameras, I go home and I eat and I shower as fast as I can, and then I sit there and I stare at the cameras until I see the cat come in. As soon as I see the cat come in, um, then I'm I'm ready to go. And and as soon as I see that it's been caught, I go. Doesn't matter if it's 10 o'clock at night, two o'clock in the morning, four o'clock in the morning, whenever it is.

SPEAKER_04 27:46

Because they're not on any kind of a schedule, and so you your chances of getting a good night's sleep are very slim once you've started on this project. Okay. Yes. Exactly. So what are your traps like?

SPEAKER_01 28:02

Um they're just a foothold. Um they are they are um, yeah, they're just a they're just a big foothold trap. Um they don't I want to make sure it's very clear that people know that modern traps do not have any teeth. That's illegal. They have no teeth on them. They have what's called an offset jaw, which causes the jaw to have a gap about it's supposed to be a three-eighth gap between the between the jaws, so it's not clamping all the way down on them. It doesn't cut them, it doesn't break anything. I can take the trap off their foot, and you couldn't even tell which foot I trapped it on. Okay. Um modern traps are made to where they don't hurt the animals. I have a ton of swivels in my chain, I have shock springs in my chain. Most of the cats, I can see them on video get caught, and they don't even know what it is. They just kind of look at it like, well, what the hell? Um so I I want to make sure it's very clear to people know that these traps do not hurt the animals. And if I chose to, I could release them, and it would be just fine. And I've and I have released incidental catches that I've even caught the farmer's dog and walked up there and let him out of the trap, and he was like, Oh, hey, buddy, thanks. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Yeah. Well, yeah, I you know, like you said, I I think a lot of people when they think of traps, they think that there's these big monstrous heavy duty, they're gonna amputate a leg and uh, you know, these modern traps that you're using, like you said, they don't hurt them. So that's good.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

No. And and I also have a big uh light cage, life cage trap that I use in some cases. If there's a lot of if there's a big percentage of of non-incidental or incidental catch animals in the area, you say dogs or cats or strays or deer or anything like that, then if I'm in an area where there's a lot of that, I do have a big life cage that I can use.

SPEAKER_04 29:57

Is that like a big have a heart trap kind of uh setting?

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Yeah, yeah, I I built it myself. It's kind of like if you take a bobcat cage and just explode it, that's what I built. So um, and it would work for dogs, it would work for sheep, it would work for anything. But um, I just took my own design and just went with it and built one. And I built it in a way that because the property that I actually worked on with it, the first one, um, the issue with this property was his cougar was coming up on the fort and killing his his house cats. Mind you that the landowner did have a lot of house cats, but they were very clean, they were feeding them, they were all vaccinated, they were all fixed, and it was one of those areas to where they were just getting dropped off at. Um, but they were they took these cats in, they were feeding them and stuff. But what happened is you know, you've got prey, you've got predators. Um the the the situation this so was a cat was actually coming up on the front porch and taking the cats. Um the landowner had walked out at one point, thought it was awesome messing with the cats, and he went out there with a stick to find a 90-pound lion laying in front of the front door with a cat in his mouth, and he didn't move. Um the second time the cat came back after he scared it off that time, the second time the cat came back and he actually shot at the cat, and this of course the cat ran off, but he came back. So that that one didn't that one fell under a public safety issue. Um But I used the uh I used that cage trap on that property and I built the cage trap in a way that the door had spaces in it um that a cougar couldn't get through, but say a house cat could, or a possum, or a raccoon. Um, and and I got to test it. It was it was kind of a nice test because of course, you know, I've got good smelly stuff for cat, and I get this big black feral cat or big black house cat walking in there, and pretty soon I see the doors down, and pretty soon I see this big black house cat walking out the door, you know. So it worked out pretty good in that sense. Um but um then people gotta know that when you know everybody sees where we've done this relocation or these this buyout of the wolves, stuff like that, like where we sold 12 wolves to uh Colorado and and and all this, they need to realize that every single one of those wolves is caught by a foothold trap.

SPEAKER_04 32:08

And this is Oh, you caught them by a foothold trap and then released them again in Colorado.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Yeah, so Colorado bought 12 wolves. I think there's only two of them left. But I I I want people to know that that this is a tool that is used by our agencies for years. Yeah. And it and we have the modernized modernized foothold traps to where it doesn't harm the animal. And the the way the best way to explain it is they're just a big handcuff. I mean, uh in my town meetings and stuff, I stick my hands in them all the time so people can see. I've had my daughter stick her hands into coyote traps, and so people can see that look, this doesn't break anything, it doesn't cut, it doesn't button. Just wanted to make that statement.

SPEAKER_04 32:51

Okay, yeah, that's that's an important thing to to know. Oh, okay. Eric Lee, you're a cougar depredation specialist, and it's about taking care of livestock and about um promoting public safety. And one of the things that I see constantly is every time there's a cougar attack on a human, then the news agency reporting, and I get these stories from all over the West and from Canada, and um, the news agency reporting always says these attacks are rare. The last time a person was killed by a mountain lion, and then they'll they'll make something up like uh was 30 years ago. And when when we have we have these statistics from last year when people were killed by by lions, and so they're conveniently leaving out um important data points while they're saying that these are rare events, they're not rare anymore. And um what you're talking about with the adaptations, uh the way the mountain lions have uh learned to react to humans because they find that humans aren't really a threat in Oregon, Washington, and California at least.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Yeah. Yeah, and you know, beyond that, too, is what I want to touch on is that it's um we have a lot of responsibilities, livestock owners, too, and and I push just as hard on on people as I do the cats. Um, is having knowing, you know, educating that we are in fact in in heavy cougar country and that we have to make different precautions, right? 30 years ago we didn't have to worry about locking up our sheep and stuff, we didn't have this big problem, and now we do. So there's a lot of that side of it too. I do town meetings where I try to, you know, help people on my page. I even come up with, you know, everybody show what they have as a as far as their goat pen and what what have you built? And I I even do pay it forward things where people have wood and shelters and roofing and materials to build this stuff, to put it on the page so people, other people that need that can get it. And so I push that side of it too, because I want I want to make sure that people understand that it's not about killing the cats. This is about um realizing where we are now with the cats and taking those steps before it gets so far out of control that we can't stop it. And it's on both sides. Um, it's on the cat side where we've got to litigate and we've got to be able to get these numbers in check. And it's on the human side where we've got to be able to try to protect our herds better. Um because it is something new. Um, I get it all the time where people tell me, uh, for 30 years I've never had a problem, I've never lost a single animal, all of a sudden I've lost five, and I hear that a lot. Um, so it's it's on both sides of it. Um, like I've told a lot of people, um, if I never had to kill another cat under these circumstances, I'd be completely happy with it. Right. Um I don't enjoy I don't enjoy killing these cats. These are an awesome animal, they're one of the greatest animals. I mean, besides the African lion and the Siberian tigers, man, they're right up there. Um but the here and now is that um we've got to do something. And with hunters' success rates being so low, numbers being so high, and you know, the population of people always goes up, and we see the problems with that. That's also going to conflict in with the cougar population. So it's a big part of my stuff is is the exposure. Because, like you said, a lot of this stuff is hidden. And a lot of people, when I tell them, well, I've, you know, they say, Well, I've never seen a cougar, and I and I say, Well, I've taken 82 out within, you know, 10 miles of your house, they're like, No way. So, you know, because like I said, we're not talking about something that's just gonna be out and about everywhere. And so people that don't see them often think, you know, like I tell a lot of people, have you ever seen a baby pigeon? Right?

SPEAKER_03 37:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

So they do exist.

SPEAKER_03 37:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

And so just because you don't see them doesn't mean that they're not there.

SPEAKER_03 37:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

So when you get in the aspect of what I do, it's that I see a lot of them.

SPEAKER_03 37:34

A big thing. Based on a good point there too. That's funny. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

That's it. Yeah. And I I myself, I don't go out and actively hunt cougars. I've had a cougar tack in my in my wallet for probably almost 40 years. I've never filled one.

unknown 37:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

Right. Right. Yeah. So I never I don't really go out and actively hunt cougars. And and Troy knows I get I get camera pictures of cougars around my place all the time.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Yeah, right there.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

The area that we live, I've got uh just the last couple weeks, I've got a female that has been throwing down there. I don't actually go out and chase them. I only go after the ones that cross the fence.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

We're neighbors and yeah, right. They're there. I mean, they're there.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Um yeah, go ahead. I'm not I'm not out to just chase every cougar in the land. There's a lot of cougars that are minding their own business and doing what they do. I only go after the ones that commit to me that commit murder is the way I put it. The ones that jump the fences that when they get on the wrong side, and I've said it in my meetings when they get on the wrong side of the fence, that's when I go after them.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

Yeah. And I think you brought up a good point too that people need to realize is you know, you don't do it because you like to kill these animals. It's it's it's just you're you're doing it because you have to remove a problem. And, you know, as outdoorsmen, I don't think I'm I mean, I'm speaking for hopefully a lot of people here. Uh, I think 95 to 98 percent of all outdoorsmen, we don't hunt because we like to kill. Right. We we we hunt for all kinds of other reasons. And uh because we I think realistically we all appreciate animals so much that and respect them that we're we're we're trying to be good stewards uh to the animal and the land and everything else and and and what you're doing. Uh that's people need to realize that it's not about killing, you know. That's that's the ugly part that people don't understand and they don't have to see. Um we as outdoors folks, we don't personally, I I don't like to see anything die. Yes, I like to eat meat, but I don't like to see anything die. That's not what that's not what we do, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

So and we see on our side of it, we see the deterioration of our wild animals. Look at the mule deer projects, you know, look at Hart Mountain. You know, you can talk to Wayne Anicott. Oh, yeah, look at the the the depredation problem in Hart Mountain and the steams where it used to be massive trophy units in their own climate on vegetation and all this and overgrazing, and that's no, if that's the case, then why is Montana and Utah and Wyoming thriving with over-the-counter antelope tags and over-the-counter mule tags, but there's so many of them and elk. Why is it such a so so easy there? And they've got wolves, right? I mean, everybody knows about the Yellowstone project with the wolves. And so what what is why how can you actively say that it's overgrazing and it's and it's and it's habitat when it's not? And I think Wayne he said when he was over there he found like seven deer kills from cougars, and he saw like two or three cougars while he was over there hiking around. And he said he didn't see a he didn't see a buck that he would have shot in a trophy unit.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

No, there it's not. I had I had a friend that had that archery tag a couple years ago, and he went over there and he was excited that he drew it, and I'm like, don't get too excited. And he went over there and he could barely find a little buck. And um, you know, and it's the same thing with the bighorn sheep over in eastern Oregon. That's their biggest predator, is a cougar. I and that's why our bighorn sheep herds suffer, is mainly it's not it's not disease, and it's not you know getting hit by cars or anything, because obviously they don't live near roads anyway. It's cougars, it's cougars that keep those bighorn sheep herds down.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

So and it's obvious that we we can't put all the blame on cougars and wolves and stuff, obviously, but they are a big percentage of it. And just because their numbers are just overwhelming at this point. And at what point are we gonna get to where nobody's gonna be able to have livestock?

SPEAKER_03 41:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

And our our ungulates are gonna just be wiped off the and then we're gonna be full of of cougars and wolves and grizzly bears. Yeah, you know, because that's tier two.

SPEAKER_04 41:49

So Eric, when you started this, what was your thought process? Because I mean you probably had other work you were doing before you started.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

I I still work a full-time job. Okay. So I do this on the site. Um what the the main thing that started this is I was ground zero. My wife and I were ground zero at Almyra. Um, so what happened is is I have five acres in Almira and uh we had three goats, and um, I had a pretty brushy pasture in the front, but I I've got houses right around me, you know. I live in in in outside, you know, in the woods, but not so far out where, you know, GPS isn't gonna find it. But um, and I went out there to find my my, of course, it's always a wife's favorite goat, and uh, I ended up finding her buried in the pasture. And I was like, crap, excuse me, that's a cougar kill. So I called John Brooks, which he was a government trapper and Lane County trapper for ODFW at that time. And I says, you know, and we were friends, and I says, Hey, can you help a brother out and swing by and help me stop this cat? And he's like, I'm way too busy. He says, I'm headed south right now. There's no way I can get to you. He says, I'm two weeks behind on on cougar kills. Jeez. So I says, Well, can you throw swing by and throw some snares or traps out the door? I know what to do with them. I just didn't have any with that. So, you know, I trapped for years, but I didn't have anything big enough for that. And um he says, I can't even get that way. He says, I can't get to you for at least two to three days minimum to be able to just throw anything out the door and drive by. So, of course, I went down to the local hardware store and tried to see what I could find for to build some snares or something and try to stop this cat because I knew what my legalities were. Um and I just couldn't find anything that I felt suitable. Plus, I had dogs on the property, I had other sheep on the property. You know, this was a big surprise in the middle of November that nobody was looking for. Um, so all I could do was set up a camera and watch this female come in and feed on my wife's every goat for three nights. I wasn't in a situation where I could climb up a tree and try to snipe her. It's middle November in Oregon, you know. Um, and I'm I was a working man, it's not like I could sit up. All night and go to work in the morning hoping this cat's going to come in. Plus, it's very unsuccessful rate at that, trying to wait for a cat. Um, they just have six cents and they find you. But so my wife got on Facebook and she posted, said, Hey, you know, just trying to be the neighborly thing and say, Hey, just let everybody know in the area. We had a cougar kill one of our goats a couple nights ago. It's in the area, make sure you're locking up the stuff. Well, the Facebook post just blew up. All these people around the community are saying, Oh my God, you know, that happened to us, or cat got killed. We watched a cougar kill our dog, or sheep got killed, or llama got killed, all over the place. State couldn't help us, didn't have time, told us to shoot it if we'd see it. So I was just like, crap, you know, that's that sucked. I didn't realize this was such a problem, but it was so, like you said earlier, it was just swept under the rug, right? All the data wasn't getting out there. So um, I have a couple properties in the area that I'm allowed to hunt on by permission by landowners. And I remember going to a landowner and just checking in on my permission and say, hey, you know, hunting season coming up. I just want to make sure I'm still good. And I'll go, Oh yeah, you know, you're fine, Eric. Go ahead. Just well, we had a cougar out back kill a deer, or had a cougar kill our sheep or whatever. So there's a cougar around there, just be careful. And I'm like, God dang it, you know. Um, and honestly, I got a guilty conscience. Um, I knew that I had the means to be able to help. Um, and I I remember telling my wife, I says, you know, I says, I've got too much of a guilty conscience on this. I've got to try to help people and I've got to figure out how to do it legally and right. Um, but I've got to try to do something because the state's overwhelmed. Um, I tried talking to ODFW about, you know, more sta strappers and more help, and they're like the government, we there's nothing we can do. We're we're we don't have enough. The the problem is so overwhelming they don't have the that bandwidth. Um so that's where I got where I'm at now. I hit the books, I started talking to the state, I started talking to OSP, I bugged the hell out of poor OSP and ODFW, figured out my legalities, what I could do, how I could do it um legally and right, and all that. And and that's what I did. I just started on a Facebook page, said if you have cougar issues, get a hold of me. And uh that was back in 2019, I believe. And um I never really expected it to get where it's at now. I figured I might help a couple people once or twice a year. No, I think I'm up to nine just this year now.

SPEAKER_04 46:25

Um so if I am not mistaken, you don't charge for your service. It's more of a donation thing, right? Correct.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

Um I don't I started to try to charge um people, but again, I've got I guess I'm just a softy because I just felt I just I felt guilty going up and I see, you know, one of them that really hit me was one up off off of Chef of the Road and and um I pulled up there and there's this little girl standing there calling her eyes out. And we went and I found I found, you know, a cougar came in and and killed her for H sheet. And I didn't I just didn't have the gun I couldn't I couldn't turn around and say, well, I'm gonna, you know, you're gonna have to pay me to help you, right? It just it just didn't sit right with me.

SPEAKER_03 47:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Um so I started, I was sort of trying to charge at first, um, but it just was I felt I had too much of a guilty conscience in that too. So what I started doing was because I'd also come across people that had their goats for 20, you know, 10, 20 years and they're they're bet their pets and their babies, and then and they're on a fixed income and they're 70 years old, and then a cougar, you know, drug it off into the brush where they can't even go find it. I can't charge somebody like that, you know. I and so like I I you know, again, I told my wife, I says, all I can really do without having a guilty conscience is use my powers for good. Because I can't, I can't I can't can't do it with a straight face going charge people for trying to help them like this. It's just like you know, your water heater blows up and a guy pulls up in your driveway and says, Well, 500 bucks I can fix that. If not, you're gonna be without cold water. You're gonna be without hot water, you know. And the water's spray it all over the garage. Yeah, you know, my house. Yeah. And I so I guess, I guess, like I said, I must just be a big soft when it comes to that because I just couldn't do it anymore. And so I start, I change it to I tell people that if you if you want to donate, great. It goes to the cause, goes in the tank. Um, if not, that's great as well. My main concern is I won't stop this cat, then you can come back and kill more of your flock. And beyond that, I do, you know, I've helped people with fences, I've helped people with shelters, I've got people wood, I've got people in connection with other people um with getting wood and structures and getting them help to help them because they realize, you know, they're like, holy crap, this is a lot bigger problem than I ever knew. Yeah, especially when they're animals get them inside at night.

SPEAKER_04 48:54

Yeah. Okay, when what are your working guns that you bring with you when you're um have to when you have to dispose of a cat?

SPEAKER_01 49:04

Um, I always, whether I'm in town, whether I'm wherever, I always have a sidearm. That's just given. Um on the cats, um I have found that I use a a a uh an AR in a 300 blackout caliber. Um I want something that has got enough power that's gonna put them down quickly. Um and that it's not going to travel. Um in a lot of cases I'm very close to other houses and farms and livestock and everything else. And and most of my shots are very close. Um so but I wanted something. I started out with a 223. I just wanted something with a little bit more a little bit more balls behind it. Yeah. Um to just put them down quickly, you know.

SPEAKER_04 49:50

Um Yeah, that sounds like a real good choice.

SPEAKER_01 49:53

Yeah. So um that the 300 blackout has been a very good round for this. Um, I think probably be if you want to compare it to probably maybe a neck down 3030, maybe I guess would be kind of in that realm. Um a 350 legend, maybe, um, would be probably my next choice for in for that. Um, you know, because on top of that, I don't want to mutilate the animal either. Um, because if the landowners, um I'm really big on utilizing the animals too. Um I don't want them to go to waste. It's bad enough that we have to kill them.

SPEAKER_02 50:24

I want them to be utilized.

SPEAKER_01 50:25

So what I do when Troy knows, because I always stop by and drop him off a bag, is is uh when the landowners don't want these cats, I make sure that the cats get skinned, the hides get utilized, the skulls get utilized, and I take the meat down to our local butcher shop and I have them, I have them turned it into beer sausage. And um thankfully enough over the yeah, over the last couple of years is that the as the my people on my page have actually donated to the local butcher shop, which is four-star meats off of Prairie Road, is they'll donate to the processing of these cats. So I have the cats processed in the beer sausage, and then I put on my page and I go down to the local Bimart and I tell everybody, come on down for free cooker meat. 100% free. I I cut it up, I bag it up, and I hand it out. That way the cat's being utilized. And I guess it's just my way of giving back to the community for what the cat took and utilize it.

SPEAKER_04 51:17

So this would be the Vanita Bimart?

SPEAKER_03 51:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 51:20

Yep. That's awesome. I've been in that that store. Okay. Um, so what about your sidearm? You probably have to use sometimes. What would it be?

SPEAKER_01 51:34

Uh I just carry a Taurus G2C. It's a it's a pretty compact pistol, um, with just um usually either hydro shocks or hollow points in it.

SPEAKER_04 51:42

Um, when if you have advice for hunters who are gonna go out and target lions by calling, what would you tell them?

SPEAKER_01 51:58

I'd say the biggest mistake, I'd say let's start there, would be that people try to call in too open of an area. Is if a cat can see you from a distance, he will. And that's the best way to put it. So if you know, cold calling is one of the hardest um because the cats can move so much. Um, if you're starting out, I would say find the elk. Okay. The the cats are gonna hang around the elk this time of year because they're getting ready to cab, and they will with the deer as well. But they really the the bigger toms, the bigger lions that are gonna uh feel confident enough to go after an elk are gonna be the big ones. And that's that's the ones that you ultimately want to take out.

SPEAKER_03 52:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

Find the elk, find out where the elk are hanging out, and then do some cold calling there. And don't get yourself into a situation where you're looking out of over a giant open hillside, or you want to get in the brush. And it makes it eerie because but you want to get to where that cat has to get close enough for you to be able to see it before it can see you. Um a variety of calls work. Joe Lewis has an awesome little thing online where he is teaching people how to call cats, and he's also teaching people how to bait cats, which is legal in Oregon. You can legally bait cougars and shoot them on bait. But there's specifics to it. It's not as easy as just throwing a carcass out there and waiting. Um Joe Lewis has an awesome little he does a podcast and he's got an awesome little school that he teaches people, obviously he charges for, but he teaches people how to um call cats and how to bait cats. Um so there is a little bit of a science to it. Um different calls work at different times of the year. Um if a guy just wanted to go out and say he was new, he just wanted to go out and try to try to try to kill a lion. My best advice would be to get out when there's snow and cut tracks, get halfway in on those tracks, and then set up a call and and have full camo, don't move because the cat's gonna come in looking and and be ready to fail seven times out of ten. And it's not that you're not calling the cat in, it's just that the cat is spotting you before you spot him.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

Yeah, you're you're not gonna see him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

Be ready to fail.

SPEAKER_04 54:17

I am so ready to fail. I fail on uh most of my coyote.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

Yeah, so you know, and and it's it it I wish it was like calling in turkeys or calling in elk where when they are they're coming, they let you know, right? But cats are just not that way, they're exactly the opposite. So they don't want you to know that they're coming, and they do everything in their power to make sure that you don't know that they're coming, because you know, cat's main strategy is is surprise, right? The element of surprise. They will sneak right up within feet of an animal before they attack it. And that could be from 200 yards and it could take them four hours.

SPEAKER_03 54:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:53

So the thing that people gotta realize too, unlike us, we have this little thing on our on our on our wrist or in our pocket that says what time it is. Deer, elk, bears, cougars have no sense of time. They have day and night. And nothing changes within day and night for them. If they're hungry, it doesn't matter what it's day or night. If they're if they got a pee, it doesn't matter if it's day or night. If they're gonna go look for a girlfriend, it doesn't matter if it's day or night. It doesn't matter if it's raining, it doesn't matter if it's sunshine, it doesn't matter any of that. So we're we're looking at this going, okay, I'm gonna call for an hour. If I don't get nothing an hour, then there's nothing here. Bullshit. So minimum you call for two hours.

SPEAKER_04 55:38

Oh man, okay.

SPEAKER_01 55:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:40

There's my takeaway.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

Two hours. Because yeah, because a cat will come in and he'll sit there and stare at where that call is coming from for an hour. Just sit there. He could be 40 yards from you and not move, and you would never know it until you got up and he looked over and went, Oh, okay. And he walks away and you thought, well, there's another failed one. So another thing, another good strategy piece is when you have a call going, say you've been calling for 35 minutes. Okay. Just like elk and deer, they or elk and turkeys, they know within 10 feet of where that call is coming from. And I don't care if it's 500 yards away. They know within 10 feet of where that's from. So if you're calling for 25 minutes and that call has been sitting in the same spot, say it's electronic call for 25 minutes, shut it off for a half hour and just sit there. Sit there as still as you can. Because now the cat knows just like an elk what's the biggest rule. You call and move, right? If you're calling from your point, if you call from your point, you stay there, the elk's gonna come right and pinpoint you. You call and move, and you go silent. And and maybe a lot of people don't know that, but do you I guess you do now. Yeah. But cougars are the same way. So if you got a call sitting out there 50, 60 yards ahead of you and you got that call going, shut it off for 20 minutes, half hour, hour even. Let it go silent. Because the cat in his mind is like, I know there was something over there. I haven't heard it for an hour, but I know it's right in that area. So if I'm not hearing anything, maybe it's just laying there dead for the take in. And he's gonna sneak in and he's gonna, as long as it's making noise, something's making it make noise. But if he can sneak in and figure it out, and maybe after an hour he can't exactly remember exactly where it's at, so he's gotta come looking. It's the old elf looking for the cow that just made a the hussy in the brush that just made a noise and now she went silent. I know she's here somewhere. I just gotta go find her. So you turn it into an ambush to a curiosity thing. And a lot of times you'll catch a cat sneaking in. You might take two steps and stop for ten minutes, two steps and stop for ten minutes. But if you're committed to it, that's just what you gotta do, right? But you're not you're not dealing with a fox or a coyote that's gonna come be bopping in and go, where are you? Where is it? Where the you know, you're dealing with an apex predator that got that big by not doing stupid stuff.

SPEAKER_04 58:07

Um, okay. Eric, how can people find you?

SPEAKER_01 58:10

Several ways. Um, if you don't see my truck go by with all my my number and everything plastered all over the back, um, the Vanita Elmyra Predator watch page is one of the best ways to be able to get a hold of me. Um and I do have a picture of my card on there um with my number, um, or I can I could put my number right on here if you wanted. Um it's 541-731-5231. I mean, I'm okay with people calling me with questions. And and even if it's not, if it's just questions, I I answer questions for people all day long, every day. Um, any any questions, and it's good or bad. I mean, I've had people call me and say, hey man, I just think you suck. I hate you and I hate what you're doing. And I'm like, that's great. That's I I re I respect you calling me and ask being able to tell me that. Everybody's got their opinions. Yeah. Um, and I'm not, you know, I I'm not a jerk about this stuff, and and I understand that there's other sides of it. All I ask is if you're gonna hate me and hate what I do, at least understand it. Just understand it. That's all I ask. Right. If you know what's going on and know what I'm talking about and you still hate it, great. That's great. I hope you have a great day.

SPEAKER_00 59:17

Troy. How can people find you, Troy? Uh, you can find me at Troy Rodokowski on Facebook or at Troy Outdoors or uh Troy R at Baileyseed.com. Um, or actually, no, it would be T Rodokowsky.

SPEAKER_04 59:33

This is a good time to plant at Baileyseed.com.

SPEAKER_00 59:35

Yes, it's a good time to plant forage blends. Forage blends. Yeah. Uh, right now's the time. If you want some forage blends, uh t Rodokowski at Baileyseed.com, or you can just call Baileyseed and uh get a hold of us there, or Google Baileyseed, get on the Facebook page or Gary LewisOutdoors.com.

SPEAKER_04 59:55

We find it there and it'll direct to the same place. Okay, guys, that was awesome. Thank you so much. Uh that was one of the best interviews I've done this year, I think. There we go. Thanks to our sponsors, not for incorporate port of well. What the liquid or the art oil? Yes, that for that post your face that's very highlighted USA What your vote of the I desert and thanks for listening. Uh we appreciate you out there, and uh we want to bring you good conversation. Tune in again soon. We're gonna have another episode up quick.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:51

Hey, it's Borat. What's it can we get together?