Trophy Blacktail Bucks at 20 Yards. Strategies for Success with Aaron Dobbins

A new way of hunting blacktail deer. That's what this is. We visit with Aaron Dobbins of Woodland, Washington to talk trophy blacktails at 20 yards. For more information, visit https://theblacktailcoach.com/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

And now, here's Gary Lewis. Next, next on Fox. But I understold him when I said he is cogent. He's far beyond cogent. In fact, I think he's better than he's ever been. Intellectually, um, analytically, seriously overweight cogent.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

You have found a podcast where we talk about big game hunting around the west, around the world. And we go into blacktail hunting, blacktail country. On this episode, we talked to Aaron Dobbins from the blacktailcoach.com. And we get kind of specific about stuff about how to get trophy blacktails into 20 yards. I think this might be what you're looking for, um, a new way of blacktail hunting. So let's get right into it with Aaron Dobbins from Woodland, Washington. I wanted to wait until after the tag draw had come out in Oregon so that people, when they start thinking about what they're gonna do this fall, they could tune in to this podcast and hear you talk about blacktail hunting, hear us talk about blacktail hunting, and start planning their successful season. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

We always want to help people have a successful blacktail season. That is our goal.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

When I went to your website, the first thing I read was we're here to share tips, strategies, and stories of hunting the Pacific Northwest, whether you're a seasoned hunter or just getting started, will help you turn preparation into achievement and passion into results. So gear up and get ready because success is no accident. And so I love that because that is exactly right where I want to live. Blackdale hunting has been hard for me, and I've been successful at it after long years of trying and preparation and and doing the work. And a lot of times I was doing bad work to get ready.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

So anyway. So, you know, it's all we you know, the success is no accident. It's because you're putting in the work. So even if the work results in in you learning a lesson that you wish you hadn't learned, it's it's still a thing you wanna you wanna view your season as is, you know, this is I'm putting work in to get become a better hunter.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

So right. Okay. And we're starting this episode early in the morning, earlier than I usually do this kind of thing. I usually do this in the afternoons. And so I got up early today, started working on an or article for Oregon Hunter magazine, and it's just right on this topic. So I went to myodfw.com, which is our our uh you know, Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife website, and I went down to the big game harvest statistics, and then I clicked on the 2020 2025 harvest percentages for deer in any weapon deer season, keeping it pretty general and focused. And then our black tail are found in the southwest part of the state and the northwest part of the state. And each unit has a harvest percentage assigned to it for the previous year. And it becomes obvious that if you want to raise your odds of success, you hunt in the southwest part of our state.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Yes. Okay. So I would say that with the caveat that that is uh how people traditionally hunt blacktail. You're glassing clear cuts, you're glassing hillsides. And that's been the typical way that a lot of guys, uh a lot of people learn how to hunt from you know, their uncle, their grandpa, their dad, uh is to glass. And we have a completely different approach that we are uh we're set hunting and we're getting into the thick stuff of where they like to bed down. And so we are having success with.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

You said you said Okay. You said set hunting. Yes. Isn't that right? I heard that you right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so you're sitting in you're setting one location. Yep. Or two locations or three.

SPEAKER_03 5:25

Yeah, exactly. Tree stands, ground blinds, uh, tree saddles, things like that. So not a real common, in fact, when Dave, uh who is he is the black tail coach, Dave Riley, and he and I have known each other for 30 plus years now, but he when he started tree stand hunting blacktails, he was one of the first people to do it. Uh not a common strategy to to do that. And that's but our Brazil is not common. No. But instead of driving roads, glass and clear cuts, we are we're going to close to where they are, their core areas, and we're creating a set and bringing that doing the things to bring them to us during season instead of us going and looking for them.

SPEAKER_04 6:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Locate dominant bucks, analyze habitat to confidently locate mature bucks in the area. Okay. And another another point that you make is get them to daylight, learn how to create an illusion that will draw dominant bucks year after year. So let's get into that. But before we do, let's tell people how they can find you.

SPEAKER_03 6:52

So we have our pr our main website, uh the theblacktailcoach.com, and you can find everything, all of our classes and and all of that information. You can reach out to us if you have a question. Uh, that's that's our main contact information. Uh, we also have the huntersgathering.com, and that is for our uh four-day camp that we do every year. Uh that is a multi-species education type camp. So that's the one we work with, Trent Fisher. He teaches elk, Dave teaches blacktail, uh black bear hunting, turkey hunting. It's multi-species. So uh those are the best ways to reach out is through those websites. And then you can listen to uh we have our podcast, the Blacktail Coach Podcast, and that's mostly focused on black tail, but of course we get into other topics as as well uh with other other forms of hunting. But yeah, any any one of those ways you have uh the ability to reach out to us. So if anybody has questions, we always try to respond to questions at as they come in, help people out. Although it gets a little tough during season. We get a lot of Hail Mary questions during season, and uh it might take a couple days, but you know, we we respond.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Yeah, okay. I love that. Uh people also want to know where you live, and so I know where you live. Let's tell you tell tell us.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

We're based out of uh Woodland, Washington, so southwest Washington, Cowlitz County. Uh been here for I've been here for five years. Dave and Osha have been living here, Dave Riley and his wife Asha for 20 years, pretty close to that. Uh-huh. Yeah. So we've been here a while, been hunting this area a while. Uh, but we actually work with people from Canada all the way down into actually Southern California. We've had some people come and attend our classes from down there. So uh yeah, wherever there's black tail, we help people figure it out.

SPEAKER_04 9:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Uh let's start with um I I think your trophy tactics course is what um people are gonna be um especially interested in. And we want to talk about the Pacific Northwest Hunters Gathering. Also, your next one, I think, is April 8th to 11 in 2027. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So that's that's great. I love that you encourage bear hunting. Um you have um in-person classes and then uh classes that can be attended through Zoom participation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:01

Yeah. So we have a couple of the trophy tactics, which is a full-day course, about seven hours. Uh, two of those that happen here in Washington, one here in Woodland and one up north in Olympia. And then we have the online course that we do, which is spread out over six weeks.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Mm-hmm. Okay. And I like that you limit participation so that everybody gets a chance to ask their own questions, tailor it to their own experience and uh landscape.

SPEAKER_03 10:38

Yeah. Yeah. We limit the in-person, we can get away with more, you know, 2025. Uh but we found that the online course, 15 Max, it just doesn't work uh to answer all the questions online. Uh we've got our system down, but we find that 15 means everybody gets gets some attention to their questions that they have, and uh we can really focus on helping everybody.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Okay. What really grabbed me when we started talking was you want to establish sets that give your hunters shots at 20 yards or less. Yes. I love that. Yes. So So what that is, is that's a high level of confidence and a high level of success once you get the parameters established. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 11:39

It's so a lot of that, uh, starting with Dave, he he he's an archery hunter. Uh, I'm uh modern, I do rifle. Actually, I do pistol hunting uh because we're in so close. And so, you know, that's the idea, bring them in close. So we focus on habitat, and that's the first thing with locating is you want to find the habitat that the big bucks like. If if that's what your goal is, is to harvest a big buck, you're looking for habitat. You're not actually looking, we don't actually go out and look for deer, and we usually do our locating, our scouting, uh February, March, when there's no leaves on the trees and you can really see uh if it's the right habitat. Because you want we have something that we call the two-bound rule. So if a deer can't disappear within two bounds, it's not thick enough.

SPEAKER_04 12:38

Oh yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

Um man, I my head is just buzzing with the the things that I'm gonna establish this year based on based on this new way of thinking for me. And um I'm primarily excited because I can put my dad into um a position, you know, this is I'm thinking about more him and a couple of other people than than I'm thinking about for myself because I already have my own plan in place. Uh okay, so the two bound rule, I really get that because they can be gone in a heartbeat if they feel threatened. And so two bounds puts them in thick brush with uh many obstacles between you and them and or between them and danger. Yeah. So, okay, so I get that. You're scouting in February and March to would you be actually looking for deer then, or would you be more interested in just finding the right spot then?

SPEAKER_03 14:00

We're we're looking for habitat, and that is that is a really hard thing to uh with with all of our clients, all the all the people who come through our class, they want it, they want to go in and they want to find the deer. Just right off the bat. They want to find the deer, and during the summer, they want to get those uh bucks in velvet, they want to get those pictures. We are just concerned about finding the habitat when we're first looking. Yeah. And once we find the habitat.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Yeah, that's totally the way. Yeah. It's totally the way I've always been. I don't really need to see the buck until I'm ready to kill it. I just I want to hunt where big bucks live.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

Yeah. And a lot of it is we're then looking, if we are looking for any deer, we're looking for does. Because once season starts, those bucks are going to be looking for those does. So if you have does hanging out in your in your area, uh, you're good to go because those bucks will come looking for the does. And it's kind of an interesting point. Like right now, the bucks have actually moved from their where they might be at during season, and they're moving out more into the open because they're in the velvet, uh, their antlers are out past their ears, and they don't like being in that real thick stuff. There, there'll be places where it's safe, but they're in their summer pattern right now. But what's interesting is though's are in those really thick spots right now because they're dropping fawns and they're wanting to keep their fawns safe. So, you know, even if you go out now, if you're seeing bucks, you're not seeing where they're going to be at during season, but you know that they're gonna be close. So Washington did a study, and it was interesting because I was talking to someone from WDFW that the the person, the biologist who did a lot of the ungulate studies up there uh was really bad about keeping the information and so that they could put it online. So they they posted these these studies and then they kind of disappeared and they can't find them anymore. But the gist of it was is in Washington State, the average range of a blacktail is 52 acres. So depending on topography and everything else, so if you see them out in a clear cut during the summer, usually they're gonna be within 52 acres. Now wear that core area and entire life, 52 acres, and they'll spend about 90% of their time uh in 70 to 90 percent of their time, they'll spend in 30% of that area, uh, just because that's the real thick, safe spot to be. And so that's what we're we're looking for is to get that idea. If we see uh buckout in a clear cut during the summer, we try to find the closest thick spot. Because that's probably where uh he's going to be during once season comes. You know, it's just it's putting together a big puzzle of of where they're at. Now it's really interesting. We've realized this, I would say, in the last couple of years. Just because they're spending 52 acres, sometimes those spots, those core areas, and they could have two or three core areas in that in their range, and that's an average, but those could be a mile apart, but they're taking one trail in between those, and they'll never deviate off that particular trail. Okay. So, you know, there are and urban bucks are the same way because they'll hop from patch to patch to patch of you know, green space in between housing developments, and so you might see them two or three miles apart, the same buck, but they're staying on a on these small patches. So if you were to track them, you know, color these deer, you would realize that they still stay on 52-acre average, even if they're three miles apart, because they're taking, you know, they'll walk the same trails to those different uh spots where they're feeling safe.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

Or there's food or that really lines up with what um one of our ODFW biologists in so in southwest Oregon discovered by monitoring the migration routes. They're traveling on the same trails. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Winter to summer, summer to winter.

SPEAKER_03 19:06

Yeah. And if they're the high cascade bucks, of course they're gonna have a longer range. Because as those the the snow level moves in and lowers, they'll be moving down to sea in front of that snow level so they could they can still feed. So they will definitely have a higher, higher range uh when they're a high cascade buck versus you know, a lot of what we work with, which is a lot of the guys that are or people taking, because we have women taking our classes as well, but uh valley bucks, coastal bucks, you know, foothill bucks, the that because it's primarily where we have the best access to.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Okay. Dominant bucks is about habitat. Okay, so we've established that. Um let's talk about what the set looks like, um, specifically a ground blind, what what that looks like.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

So I hunt out over ground blind because I don't like heights, so I don't want to be up in a tree. Uh although I do have a ladder stand, but uh we when you put in a ground blind, you don't just throw up a ground blind and call it good. Uh you've got to tie it into the uh trees or stumps or the land around it. And so we we put it wherever it's tied in in between like a tree and maybe a bush, but then we'll go to a different spot and we'll cut limbs, uh, whether it's fur boughs or um the salal or uh just whatever. And your your ground blind has loops all the all the way around the top and the bottom. There's rows of loops, and you fill those with uh brush. So basically, when you're done, it's going to look like just a big bush sitting there. And so it's not going to be some object uh that is unfamiliar. So we we talk about if someone came into your house and rearranged your furniture, you would notice. If you go put up a ground blind, don't brush it in and just have it there out in the open. Animals are going to notice this thing sitting there. And so you want to brush it in, you want to make it look like it's the habitat that's already there. Um, and then when we first put it in, because we're usually putting up ground blinds two weeks before season starts, uh we'll hit it with a little nose jammer uh just to hide the scent. And we might Hit that if we don't have a scent control like uh ozonix or things like that. We'll hit it with nose jammer a couple more times so that they start getting used to that smell uh as as you're approaching season. And it kind of and it helps to mask any new smells that you're bringing in with, you know, your gear and whatnot.

SPEAKER_04 22:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

Uh what is let's talk about nose jammer real quick. What is that? How does it work?

SPEAKER_03 22:34

So we can deer have some have some of the best nose uh uh scent receptors. They have 320 million scent receptors in their nose. It's even better than a bear. Uh so what scent jammer does when you spray it, or when I spray it, it just smells like vanilla. But what it is, is it's I believe seven to nine different smells, and it overwhelms their sense of smell and it kind of locks it up. So it then they can't really smell anything. So that's how it hides what it is. And once they become used to it, it's it's like any type of odor, it's a defense mechanism, and it's true for humans as well. That you when there's a a new smell in the air, odor, you you smell it, but after a while you go kind of noseblind to it. And it's that same idea of your it's your body, your brain switches that off because it's an alert system for you, so that if you smell something that's dangerous, you know to move. Same it, you know, it works the same way with deer. It's it's an alert system, and it's their number one alert system for keeping them safe.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Do you find yourself making ground blind out of building materials or using the kind that you can pull out of a bag and throw up in a minute?

SPEAKER_03 24:13

I I do the pop-up ones. I like those. I like staying dry. You know, I've done uh sit out in the open. Actually, I've sat out in the open in a ground blind chair uh before. It works in a pinch. Um, I just the goal is to be able to stay out in your set as long as you can. And if you can, those pop-up tents are great because you can stay dry. You know, I don't I don't bring like a buddy heater in there and stuff, but if you're kind of a cold person, you're out of the rain, you're out of the wind, it helps you stay out in your set longer.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

Yeah, the as I have I have a ground blind, I love it, and I've used it quite a bit, but the sets that I'm thinking of are on uneven ground, and I'm picturing bringing in some materials and building some blinds, but the the thing that I'm thinking about is how I'm managing the human scent, and then we know it's gonna rain, so you want to be able to stay in long enough, and that means having a roof on it.

SPEAKER_03 25:37

Yeah. So you could level out the ground, and I've done that to an extent where I've tried to level the ground that I'm sitting on, and the ground blind chair that I actually use has adjustable legs. It's kind of a tripod base. And so one leg can be longer. So if it's slightly uneven ground, one or two legs could be different length. Keeps you balanced so that you're not sitting on a tilt. Um, I've tried the other ones that are that don't have the adjustable legs, and it's it just gets really uncomfortable if you're sitting there having to hold yourself up all day because you're leaning one way or the other. So I like those tripod base uh ground blind chairs. I use the kind of the hammock style, the mesh, because those are really comfortable. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I like those too. Those are definitely the way to go. Whether you're you get a tree stand or a ground blind, uh, the mesh hammock style are the are the way to go because you can sit in those all day and not, it doesn't get uncomfortable. Whereas those padded seats, you know, after a while you start shifting and yeah, you just want to cut down, do whatever you can to cut down on your movement, you know, even if you're in a ground blind.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

Those tripod chairs, they um allow you to move into shooting position easier than the kind of chairs that you bring to a picnic and the and you fold out because those you generally have to you're leaning back a little bit more. And when you shift your weight, they make a little bit of noise.

SPEAKER_04 27:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

And that's that's what you want to avoid. So I really like that aspect of the chair.

SPEAKER_03 27:28

What about getting them to daylight? So with us, now you're down in Oregon, so you can actually still bait. Now, here's the thing, and it's uh it's a big misnomer uh with baiting. Baiting will not make a big buck daylight. Right. It'll make small bucks and it'll make does day. Uh they'll come by all the time and eat. In fact, big bucks generally won't even touch bait if you have it out. They'll ignore it entirely. So we used to uh use baiting with ours because we just wanted does to be hanging out in that area. Um, but it then it gets into using scents. So do and estrus, uh buck urine, and then uh bedding pheromone. So the preferred one we really like, and they're not a sponsor of ours, but the conquest scents, ever calm, is a bedding pheromone. That calms deer down and they will hang out in your set for longer when you use that. Uh because they think it's a it tells them it's a safe spot to be. And whether you're using synthetic or uh we none of us can use the real stuff anymore, but the synthetics all work great. We've never had an issue with using synthetics. Um, but so that creates the Evercom, the bedding pheromone creates the fact that this is a spot that deer hang out in. The dough in asterisk is it's creating the illusion that there's a dough out there that hasn't been bred yet. So when a buck comes by, oh, there's another dough, especially if you can find uh, they don't make it yet, but uh Tinks used to do or does one, a non-sith synthetic called Peak 30, which is that standing estrus, that 72 hour. So if a doe smells that, okay, she's ready to be bred. I better come back and look for her on a on the regular basis. And that is what will get him coming by. And then when you use that with uh uh a buck urine, that's a new buck in the area, a potential challenger buck, especially when you've introduced these new does who are ready to be bred. Okay, I got this guy looking for you know who I want to be, my new girlfriend. I better show up and and keep him off of all these girls that are that are now in this area. So he'll come by either looking for to get rid of him or looking for the these does. So when when they're in the rut. So this is, and it's of course a strategy that works during the rut, the first rut and the second rut. So, you know, we're not doing uh any uh sense before mid-October, and we're doing them really light, just like you would with calling and rattling. You know, you do it real light, and then towards the end of the month uh is when you really start amping things up and getting into November, and then you can, you know, there's then they go into that second rut when in December. So after like so if you're late archery, I would say. Uh black powder. Yeah. Um yes, and some black powder spots. Uh here it's so few and far between to find a a late season black powder up here in Washington that uh I tend to forget about that one. Yeah. So yeah, it's that is the you're you're wanting to bring deer into your area, you're wanting to bring uh and get them calm when they're in the area, and then creating an illusion that there's a reason they need to come back.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

On this, I'm thinking of a particular hillside, and after I set cameras there last year, it opened my eyes as to how the animals are using the ground. And I know that part of it is not buck, big buck core habitat, but part of it is.

SPEAKER_03 32:54

Yeah, my pistol is a 44 Magnum. Uh, I use a model, uh Smith and Wesson model 29, uh, and it's scoped. And a big key with that is when you have to think through, so a lot of this is uh you you gotta work on mindset stuff, which and a lot of people dismissed that, but it's it's different when you're looking at a Pope and Young or a trophy buck that is 200 yards away from you versus 12 yards away from you. And even any deer that you've got this thing that's 10, 12 yards, because I had a couple that were nine. The the one I shot a couple years ago was 11 yards away. They're right there. You know, they're really in your lap. You're when they're walking around, you're seeing the muscles moving under their skin. And so you have to stop yourself, think about your shot, think through your shot. And once you, you know, you hit before you start jumping up and down that you got to hit on them, you have to be paying attention, which direction did they run. Uh, you're listening to them as they run off because they're going to be crashing through the brush. So you're just focusing on that of which direction that they ran, you know, and you're thinking about whether or not you got a good shot on them. And so we sit and we wait at least a half an hour after we've taken the shot. And we just sit there, we wait for everything to calm down, and half an hour to maybe even up to a couple hours if it you think that it wasn't as good a shot as it could have been. And then we go looking for them. And hopefully that you've got a good blood trail that you can follow. Uh mine when I he went about twenty five yards and piled up. Uh, but it was pretty easy to spot and I knew exactly the direction that he ran. Um, but no blood trail whatsoever. The blood all stayed in the cavity. Um, but I wasn't using the probably the best ammo, and I think I I would have just had him drop right there uh because it was double long heart shot, but I completely punched through him with the with the ammo that I was using. But yeah, still he he did that little death run 25 yards and he was piled up. So yeah, a lot of it is just kind of staying calm, thinking through your shot, but thinking about okay, as soon as you take the shot, you're paying attention to which way he ran and listening. Like, do you hear him stumble and stop moving, or do you hear him just take off until you you can still hear him and he's 200 yards away, you know, crashing through the brush? So those are just some of the things that we do after it's after the shot.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

Is there something else about mindset that really pays off when you're hunting this way tight in the core areas?

SPEAKER_03 36:35

We so Dave has uh one of the things that he mentions quite a bit is and he's very specific. He will hunt one buck. Even if another nice buck comes in, he'll ignore that buck because he wants one specific buck that he gets on camera on his set. So once he determines he'll look at the the rack, once he determines that's his buck, he doesn't look at the rack again. He's thinking about his shot. And so that's kind of the uh it's kind of the way it it goes. Now, when I it was a couple years ago when I got that one buck, two days before I had a buck, and he was at nine yards, and I missed him at nine yards because I didn't think through my shot. And there's a lot of reasons like buck fever, people get buck fever. Mine was I just didn't think through my shot process. So it's it's going over in your mind over and over again. Okay, I need to make sure my grip is tight, I need to, you know, align my shot, I need to think of you know the trigger, because I'm I'm cocking my pistol and it's single action, and those model 29s are just a hair trigger. So I'm having to think through all of those, that whole process of okay, and then when it goes off, and then what happens next, and all of that. Well, I missed. I was wearing, I didn't have a tight grip. Uh, so when the shot went off, I I kind of jerked the trigger and it slipped in my hand, shot over him at nine yards. Uh, and then David said, Well, I've got uh a rifle you could borrow. And I'm like, No, I know what mistakes I made. I don't want to invite new mistakes in. So a lot of it with the mindset is don't change up your plan, you know, and practice. Get out there throughout the summer, whether you're archery or rifle, get out there and practice over and over and over again. You know, a lot of times people will go in, sight in their rifle, put 10 rounds through it, maybe, and they're good. Be just ready because especially if you're if you're going to hunt this style, it's different when they're 20 yards or less. It just it throws you a little bit more, I would say. Uh because you have, you know, these very beautiful creatures and they're standing right in front of you, you know, and it is it's different from seeing them 150, 200 yards away, you know, across a drainage, things like that.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

Yeah, you think you have a a new world record in your in your sights. That's one of the issues about using a scope at close range, you know, you you it looks like a world record in your scope, and then that amps your adrenaline. And so, like for me, uh with my 4570, I have a one and a half to five X loophold on it, and I'll that's gonna be dialed down, and you just pick your spot on the animal. You know, you you glance at the rack, you know, now you know it's legal, it's the buck you're gonna take, whatever your criteria. You don't look at the rack anymore, you pick your spot and you pick, you wait for the moment that the animal turns. This is the way we do it in bear camp in Minnesota, because those bears are you know right at the base of our tree in some cases, or or they're ten yards out, and you see in the muscles rippling like you're talking about, and you just you you know if if you say yes to the animal, then you you just begin the process of picking the spot and waiting until it's turned its body to the to whatever shot you've gotta make and then drive the bullet through. Yeah. But that that whole process for me it's I'll have a bullet in the chamber and the hammer down. So that hammer's gotta come back to full cock. And then then the finger goes on the trigger. Every part of that has to be in your muscle memory. Yeah. So which is which means I'm not gonna hand that rifle to somebody who hasn't practiced with it a lot to make that shot.

SPEAKER_04 41:32

They've gotta they've gotta come to it well prepared, you know, muscle memory-wise. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

And a lot of that is because you not only do you want that harvest, but you want to make an ethical shot. You know, and I think true hunters, sportsmen, they they don't want to cause an animal suffering because they took a bad shot. So that and that is that's part of it is you're you're practicing, you're doing all that so that you can dispatch that animal quickly. You know, you don't want it suffering for three days as it, you know, because you didn't just didn't get a good shot, and then it's out there suffering. Nobody wants to do that. And so yeah, and the the but the best way to avoid that is just be out there practicing with your weapon and just know what all could happen. And, you know, another thing with with our sets, because we'll have uh what we call the kill spot, and that's you know, anywhere from usually 10 to 20 yards out, and that's where we'll put the scents and everything to to bring them in. But uh we're we're making sure that we you have a good shooting lane, and it might be a two by two window because if you're in that really thick stuff, it might just be a two by two window. But you know, when we're putting up tree stands, uh Dave likes to be about 25 feet up, so it's usually going out with a couple people, and then you've got the those long pulled saws, so that you got a shooting lane down into your set. And yeah, yeah and those are some things to think of instead of we're always going out, we always got the little hand uh pruners with us because if you're sitting in a ground blind too, you know, sometimes those little branches, one of them will drop because of the wind or something like that. You want to be able to reach out there and just kind of clip it real quietly instead of trying to physically move it out of the way and creating a bunch of racket. So uh, you know, there's it's just all those things that you're thinking about. You know, another thing I was thinking about with the uh with the sets and the habitat is uh you know one of the things that we talk about in our in our classes is people think that they have to go way, way back behind a gate because that's where their spot is. Or you you because you gotta get away from people. There are big bucks hanging out by the gates just as much as they're hanging out two miles behind the gates. Um, one of our guys who he's now our pro staff, and he's actually the guy who teaches the turkey, uh, Alex Cheney, incredible turkey hunter. He went through our class and our coaching, and he created a set, it was 20 yards past the gate, and he cut in his trail, and his it was 50 yards in from there. So 70 yards from the gate, and he got a Washington book archery uh buck, his first year using the system. So, and he was in a ground blind, I think it was 13 or 17 yards. But again, the habitat was right there. There was no point in walking past the habitat because the habitat that held those big bucks was right by the road. And so, and which can be a downside because now as we're driving down the road, we're always looking at habitat off the side of the road and coming close to running off the road because we're staring off into the woods. Oh, that looks like a good spot. I should go in there and look around, and yeah, it uh it's a it's a bad habit, but it's a fun habit because yeah, you're always looking for that next spot.

SPEAKER_04 45:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

Okay, well, that was a really good point that um reminds me of what I always tell people is that when you go to the end of the road and and you're gonna walk in half a mile or whatever, that there's always somebody else who's thinking the exact same thing you are. And there's only so many ends of the road and so many gates for you to end up at. And if that's your way of thinking, there's other people doing the same thing. What you want to do, I think, is try to do the opposite thing that other people are doing, and that's like um for me it's parking spaces. If if I see a good parking space into good deer habitat, well 50 other people have seen the same thing. But if I find a place that has good deer habitat and no parking spaces, I want to know how to get back to that place. Yeah. So and so even if it means being dropped off or because I usually am hunting by myself, um I've got to walk back from you know a half a mile away and and then walk in on that spot. And then now you're in a core area that other people are probably missing.

SPEAKER_03 47:38

And you know, that's with the use of e-bikes, but you know, I've seen a lot of people who will bike in uh to get back in past those gates and stuff, although there's a lot of areas you can't use e-bikes in anymore. Uh the the spot I hunt, the spots I hunt, uh Sierra Pacific Land, they don't some of their areas they allow e-bikes and some they don't, and I happen to be in the ones that they don't. But we've we've found that, well, let me just say in the last three years, I've had one elk hunter on one of my cameras, one brush picker on one of my cameras in the middle of summer, and then I had a mushroom picker. And that's it. On and that's three different sets, three different areas, uh for months, months and months of cameras being out there, and I've had three people I've caught on camera. Um, well, actually one person the elk hunter I caught a couple of times because he's looking for elk in the same spot I'm looking for deer. But uh yeah, we just we don't get people hanging out where we're where we're hunting, which is kind of nice because you know, you're a little less nervous about your stuff getting stolen out in the woods, uh, which is always uh a disappointment when you walk out there and your stuff's all gone, which and we've had, you know, uh one of our friends up in Seattle, he had that issue. He went in, they took his ground line, his trail cams, um, but just because there's so many people in that area, because he's up near Seattle hunting. And so, you know, limited limited spots, but yeah, it's amazing where uh we're 20 20 yards, 10 yards into that real thick stuff, and nobody has any idea we're there, and we can hear him walking by all day because they're headed out to their spot.

SPEAKER_04 49:49

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:55

Okay. Um let's see. This whole thing about mindset, I think, is where is what sets the consistently successful hunter apart from the person who is occasionally successful. Um, you another thing in your website, you say elite hunters who accomplish big game trophy animals are well educated and hardworking. The more you understand this elusive species, the higher the success rate you'll have harvesting them year after year. I totally believe that. And I think what you guys are doing is awesome, and I'm so glad to see you doing it. Uh, for me, it was book learning that got me there.

SPEAKER_03 50:46

Oh, that's what got Dave there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:49

It was Boyd Iverson's book, and um there's there's probably five, maybe six books that I would say that the black tail hunter should read. Um, one of the best is Scott Haugen's book. And um that's I always recommend that one, but don't just read one, read the read all of them. Read all of them. Yeah, there's some authors that don't publish in the big um in the big hunting magazines that have a lot of good to say on black tail hunting too, and you can learn from every single one of these books.

SPEAKER_03 51:30

Yeah. You can learn, it's interesting. You can learn if you pay attention and you understand, and it this is as you go along, uh watching tactics on whitetails. I mean, with doing scents and drags and all that, that's uh primarily in tree stands, it's white tail stuff that we're doing. Right. Well, this is all stuff because Dave, he he will watch Hunting on Anything because there's you can glean information from any type of source. You know, I talked about Alex Cheney, he had tried doing a ground blind turkey hunting. Well, he didn't know you had to brush him in. And he goes, Yeah, it was a complete failure because he just put up a ground blind and thought, and the turkey walked in to about 80 yards, saw him, saw the ground blind, turn around and walk back out and wouldn't come in any closer. Well, he, you know, he goes through the class and realizes you've got to brush in a ground blind. He's like, now I'll be a better turkey hunter because I understand that. I learned that by taking a blacktailed class. So there's learning in in any type of hunting. I s I've sat through uh uh Heather Aldrich, who teaches on our bears, who is incredible. She knows so much about uh behavior, but I've learned picked up tactics on hunting blacktails by listening to her talk about bear hunting because of how she approaches things and how she's looking for uh habitat. And it's that same, you know, animals out they're looking for safety, they're looking for food, and they're looking for the opportunity to breed. And if they're missing one of those, that area isn't going to support them. They're not going to be in that area. And she was talking about that, and it really made me think about as she mentioned that she had taken a sow out of an area, and this boar that she had been trying tracking disappeared. And it made sense because she took one of the reasons for that boar to be in that area. She took she took the sow. Well, no more boar to go after because he's now gone. So now she has to put in all the work to find him somewhere else. But okay, I I'd not really thought about that of like, oh, if there's not feed in this area, if there's not, you know, the if there are not dough, if there's no does in the area, well, you're not going to see the buck during hunting season because he's looking for does. So even if you create that illusion, he might not still be even traveling through that particular spot of his his area. And it's interesting with Blacktail, a little sidebar here, they will show up in certain parts of their range only during certain parts of the year. So I have this buck, and I named him two times because he came in and I just had a camera out. I didn't even have like I didn't have any sense or anything like that. He came by I caught him on camera twice in a 10-day period. Uh it was during late October, and that was it. I had cameras up year round. Only time I saw them were those two times during season. The following year had cameras up all year again in that particular spot. He came by the same 10, 12-day period and never stopped, came through that area at any time during the year. So, you know, you have to find out where they're at and when they're going to be there. So that and that's why we look for those core areas, those thick bedding areas. Uh, we call like calling them the bedroom because that is where they're going to be for most of their life. So not perusing around looking for doughs for uh when the rut hits or anything like that.

SPEAKER_02 55:57

So I think this is what I've been unconsciously looking for in my blacktail hunting, and it's a new way to me. It's a new way of looking at blacktail hunting. And um I I think that I've always I've always kept a journal. As long as I've been a successful hunter, I've kept a journal. And I keep maps that help me understand what's going on in an area. But I want to focus down into really small hunting areas. So I'm not I'm not seeing everything in my area anymore. Like if I have a lease, I'm not I don't care about all the rest of that ground. I care about these few acres. Yeah. And then I want this to be part of my five-year plan. And i if I'm in the right place, my five-year plan will include sometimes drawing a muzzle loader tag to hunt during the muzzle loader season, you know, when I might, you know, at least in Oregon, have a chance to hunt deeper into the rut. Yeah. If when you focus that way, you're thinking about the buck that hasn't even been born yet that you're gonna kill four or five years from now.

SPEAKER_03 57:29

Yeah. The uh and I've uh not sure where this information is, it's one uh it's a stat that Dave likes to uh bring up. He he picked it up somewhere along the way, but the average hunter, skilled hunter who go who starts going after a buck, like I found this buck, I'm going to go after him, will spend three years going after that one buck on average. It'll take three years to finally harvest him because it's it takes some work to figure it out. You know, you have to go out there and put boots on the ground, you know, you have to get on your on X and do some scouting, and you have to, okay, I think this looks right, I'll set up here, and for whatever reason it doesn't work out, you know. Uh Dave was thwarted last year. He had his buck come in, and it was bucks are really good about coming in during the week when you're at work and you catch them on camera, and you're at work and it's you know daylight hours, and oh, there he is, hanging out on your set. And the one day he came in on a day Dave was gonna go hunt, uh, he was on I-5 and there was a car wreck, and it stopped I-5. And by the time he could get down to the set, it was too late. The buck had moved off, and he hung out there for an hour. And uh, you know, you have things like that. And it's and that that goes with the mindset. You are going, things will go south. You will start second-guessing yourself uh during the season. And oh, maybe I should, uh maybe I should. It's that five year, you gotta have a plan that, and that's great. Five-year plan, and stick with it and keep working that plan. Uh you can and there you can make adjustments to the plan as you go along, as you collect more data. And we're I'm real big. Uh my background is education, and you don't do anything uh unless you don't make any changes unless you have data that tells you you should be making changes. So looking at the looking at the signs when you're out there, the trail cam pictures, what is that telling you? Yeah, and you don't change what you're doing unless you have data that tells you you should be changing what you're doing. Just getting impatient, you know, thinking, uh, second guessing yourself, I gotta do something different. Yeah, that's not why we why we change things up. It's because something tells us I need to change this particular aspect of my hunt.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:10

Okay. Are there any days that you decide you're not gonna go in the blind today? Does that ever happen?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:18

Um I like real windy, stormy days because of the thick stuff we're in. It just it's a safety thing. Uh you don't want a tree falling on you. I don't want a tree falling on me. And I've created a set and a big windstorm came through, and I went back out to that set, and a whole clump of 60, 80 foot tall furs came down on my set. So yeah, I'm a big proponent of like don't don't go out when it's not safe. Um other than that, there's not really anything that tells me because even if things aren't necessarily lined up, uh, you know, we use we look at the red moon, moon phase, and so you know, that's uh studies say it doesn't work, studies say it does work. It's one of those things that we go with uh looking at weather, looking at temperature drops, barometric pressure. We look at a lot of those things, um phase of the rut. But honestly, you can't kill something if you're sitting on your couch. So even if it doesn't look like none of those things are lining up, go out and hunt. I mean, you're not going to kill something sitting on your couch, and who knows? Deer and all animals are individuals. There are there are certain things that are generally true, but they are going to behave like an individual creature and they will have preferences. And you know, they might get up and move when things say that they wouldn't normally get up and move. They might like eating certain feed that most deer don't like that. Or there's yeah, there's just a lot of different things to to consider of why they could be out there, but you can't kill a deer from your sofa. How can people find you? Okay, go to the blackdale the blacktailcoach.com. That's our website. All of our classes are on there. We have field days, we have uh in-person classes online, uh, we have full season coaching where we walk you through your season. Uh, if you're interested in going to the camp, the huntersgathering.com. Uh, we're getting people everything's ready to go, registration for next year. You can reach out to us at blackmailcoach at gmail.com. Feel free to send us a question if you have a question for this coming up season. Like I said, when we're getting in season, there's really no Hail Marys. Uh keep doing what you're doing, but send us an email. We'll try to help you out. Uh, it just might take a couple days during season and stuff. So uh, but feel free to reach us out. You can listen to our podcast, Blacktail Coach Podcast. Uh, we will be rerunning, we rerun uh kind of our best six episodes for blacktail hunting leading up to season starting in August. So uh we want guys to be successful hunters out there. We want a community of hunters who support and help each other. So we that's what we're working on building.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:36

I love what you're doing. It's very inspiring. I know there's a lot more successful blacktail hunters now and in the future because of what you guys are doing. And so all the best. The blacktailcoach.com. Don't put the blackmailcoach.com in. You probably get something different.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:57

Yeah, but I've said that many times on the on talking too fast on the podcast, blackmail coach. No, that's not what we do.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:06

That's a different thing. Yeah. That's a different podcast. Okay, well, Aaron Dobbins, very fun. I'm glad we did it today. This was the important time of the year to do this conversation. Not last month, right now, because people are starting to think about it and they're starting to get ready, and a lot of people need a roadmap to success, and that's what you guys offer. So good job. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, whatever I can do to help you, let me know. This episode was sponsored by West Coast Floats of Philometh, Oregon, made in the USA since 1982 for steelhead and salmon fishermen. Visit WestCostFloats.com. That's what we're going to be using up in Alaska in September. If you want to support free speech and good hunting content on the Information Super Highway, look for our books and wildlife forage blends at Gary LewisOutdoors.com. TV sponsors include Nozzler, Warren Scope Mounts, Carson, Procure Bait Sense, Spring Pilot, the Dalles Area Chamber of Commerce, Thomas and Sales, Thomas Sales and Service, Madras Ford, Bailey Seed and Smarts. You can watch select episodes of Frontier Unlimited on our network of affiliates around the United States or click YouTube and search Gary Lewis Outdoors Frontier Unlimited. You got it. Hey, catch you on the next one.