Reinventing Education with Chris Turner of Moonrise

Did you know that homeschooling is the fastest growing education alternative in the U.S.? In fact, with school unsatisfied families on the rise, the number of homeschooled kids is going up by 10% each year. 

As a parent with two kids being homeschooled, Chris Turner started Moonrise in 2018 with a vision for reinventing education. Through Moonrise, Chris sought to push back on the misconception that kids learn best by having a set curriculum simply dumped into their heads and instead reframe learning as an active process that requires human creativity.

Moonrise offers a beautiful  space where kids can explore, take on real-world projects, be a part of a community, and learn from qualified and specialized learning guides. Initially created as a place for child enrichment and supplemental learning, Moonrise is now shifting to cater more specifically to the homeschooling market.

In this episode, Chris shares more about his journey as an entrepreneur, biggest lessons learned so far with Moonrise, and what he sees as the future of education. 

Guest-at-a-Glance

💡 Name: Chris Turner

💡 What he does: Chris is the Founder and CEO of Moonrise.

💡 Company: Moonrise

💡 Noteworthy: Chris Turner is a tech and education entrepreneur who founded Moonrise as a co-learning space for kids in Decatur, Georgia. The mission at Moonrise is to build a world for kids. They offer a space where students can build things, follow their interests, and learn together. Friendly on-site guides support kids and motivate them to push their limits. Before Moonrise, Chris was the founder of Tenrocket, a company that helped entrepreneurs launch new apps in 10 days for $10K.

💡 Where to find Chris: LinkedIn l Website

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Connect with our cohosts Richard Simms & Carlos Gonzalez on Linkedin

Transcript

E661389B_24 - TT - Digital Footprint - Chris Turner

[00:00:00] Chris Turner: I don't regret at all the decision to go after a really nasty problem. 'Cause at some point somebody's gonna do it, and I happen to love this problem. So, I think I'm in a really good position. I, I might be the best person to work on it. I hope I'm the best person to work on it.

[00:00:47] Richard Simms: Hello and welcome to the Digital Footprint. Hi, I'm Richard Simms, and this podcast is brought to you by Tyrannosaurus Tech, an award-winning technology partner dedicated to designing and developing high-impact software products. Today I'm joined by Chris Turner, Founder, and CEO of MoonRise.

[00:01:05] Great to see you, Chris. 

[00:01:06] Chris Turner: Great to see you too, Richard. Thanks for having me on.

[00:01:09] Richard Simms: Absolutely. Thanks for coming on. So, I was naturally thinking, before getting into this, like I've probably known you for almost 10 years now, which is wild. I feel like we kind of came up in the Atlanta startup scene around the same time if you will. So, it's very cool to have you on the show, and I think you've had a really interesting entrepreneurial journey and, you know, started at least two successful businesses that I'm aware of.

[00:01:37] And I think what you're working on now with Moonrise is especially cool. So, I'm excited to unpack things with you a little bit today. Yeah, man, it's, it's been a, a wild ride over the last 10 years or so, but I think we've both ended up in a, in a good place. So.

[00:01:51] Chris Turner: Absolutely.

[00:01:52] Richard Simms: So, to start us off, if you would, you know, can you just briefly introduce yourself and tell us just a little bit about your latest venture, Moonrise?

[00:02:01] Chris Turner: Sure. Yeah. So, I'm Chris Turner. I have two kids, and we live in Decatur, Georgia, with my wife, Hannah. So, my oldest is seven, and my youngest is four. Let's see. So, I, I think getting past, like, the normal stuff that's like a little bit small talkie about, like, my background, like, I would say that

[00:02:19] the ,interesting thing about me is that I'm very much like a, like a humanist and an optimist. So, I'm always looking for ways to remove barriers to creativity. I think human creativity is kind of the source of all progress, as far as we know it. And there's a lot of stumbling blocks, and we've seen a lot of these like historically, but even today, like post-enlightenment, we, we have a lot of stumbling blocks to human progress and creativity.

[00:02:43] So, most of, like, the arc of my career so far has been about removing those, those barriers. And, I think, my latest venture in Moonrise is so far, I think, my best attempt like the root problem to fixing that and empowering increase and progress.

[00:02:58] Richard Simms: Very cool. I love that, and thank you for taking, like, a little bit of an unconventional approach. Like you said, that was much more interesting than just kind of talking about your background. And I think that was a good kind of summary of, like, the theme that I wouldn't have been able to articulate, but when I think about

[00:03:16] what you've done in the startup space, that, that totally makes sense. And, yeah, as someone with two small kids myself, which we were, of course, just discussing this before we hit record, but I've been keeping a pretty close eye on Moonrise. I think it's a super cool concept, and I'll ask you later to, like, unpack a little more some of the pain points that I think you all are trying to address.

[00:03:38] But, you know, as a parent, I can certainly relate to just kind of the general anxiety about your kids' education and what are they being exposed to. And so, it's, it's, you know, been something I've tracked in, in a more hands-on way than I might have with just other new businesses or startups, uh, that are out there.

[00:03:58] So, I got to know you initially while you were running Tenrocket, which you all had a, a lot of success with, and I think that was your first startup if that's fair to say. So, I guess, tell us a little bit about how that was also in line with this, this desire to kind of unleash creativity, and then also just what led you down kind of this entrepreneurial path.

[00:04:21] Like, how did you end up here?

[00:04:23] Chris Turner: Yeah, totally. So, it wasn't obvious to me that that was the arc of my career when I was doing Tenrocket. I think I was just kind of trying to solve problems that were really frustrating to me. Like, I've always been an optimist, so I've always felt like I, I've never been, like, scared to tackle industries or anything like that where I have no experience.

[00:04:40] So, I mean, starting a program or, or a, or a company where we build apps for other founders in 10 days for $10,000. Like, that was the premise of Tenrocket. And I had just finished a coding boot camp, and I was probably among the worst programmers in my class. Like, I just, I realized along the way that I was much more of, like, a designer than a, than an engineer.

[00:05:06] But I still had to make it through the class, and, you know, I built a prototype and all that. But when I got out of that, I was still, the reason I went into the program was I was trying to build an EdTech app. And everybody was giving me quotes for, like, a hundred thousand dollars in six months to build this app.

[00:05:21] And, you know, I, I really was just looking to validate the idea and try to get something meaningful out into the world. 'Cause I knew, like, that you had to, you know, iterate and kind of go, go along, especially if you're a first-time founder. Uh, so it didn't seem wise to drop a hundred thousand dollars in six months of time on something that was likely to fail, being my first shot on goal.

[00:05:38] So, I, you know, when I got out of this program, I was like, "You know, even I, as, like, a pretty bad programmer, like, could probably build a basic app in 10 days." 'Cause that's what we did for our project. So, it was like, "I wonder how many other founders are out there that would be founders if they could just, you know, get something basic out the door instead of relying on, you know, this, this huge upfront investment to just validate something?"

[00:05:59] And so, that was kinda the idea and that, that's the tie-in to human progress. It's like, I think founders move the world forward. It's kind of like, you're, you're a, uh, applied philosopher, when you're a founder. Like, you take some ideas that you have in your head, and instead of just writing about them, you try to, like, put them into some meaningful context that people can buy.

[00:06:15] So, I thought, you know, if we could build more companies and take more shots on goal, that would push human progress forward, uh, and it would also scratch my own itch, which is also a theme of, of my companies. So, that was it. We built about three apps, or sorry, three apps, we built about 52 apps over the course of three years and got acquired in 2017, and that's when I started working on what ultimately became Moonrise.

[00:06:38] Richard Simms: Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. I know we were in touch throughout the, the Tenrocket adventure, and I was always impressed with what you all were doing and the mission because, yeah, I mean, there's obviously just a, a huge gap, even with the best intentions of being scrappy, like there's just a huge barrier to entry there for any actual functional MVP.

[00:06:59] So, I, I love what you all were doing there. So, let's talk a little bit more about Moonrise. I appreciate that you kind of said you're not afraid to jump into, you know, big industry. It's like, uh, I know part of you all's mission, or maybe the mission is best summarized to reinvent education. So, it's a big space, it's a big problem to try to tackle, right?

[00:07:21] But, like, what, what kind of got you there, willing to take the plunge and take a crack at it?

[00:07:26] Chris Turner: Yeah. Um, it's not any one thing. It was like a, a bunch of things, and all of them would've been good reasons by themselves to, to do this. So, believe it or not, the first one was philosophical. So, after I sold Tenrocket, I started asking myself, like, the big questions, you know, like, "What's the, what's the arc of my career?"

[00:07:44] And stuff like that. Uh, so that's when I kinda came up with that answer. You know, "What's the best way that I can push that arc forward, um, that aligns with what I'm good at and what I'm passionate about?" And then, beyond that, like, like, "What literally is the source of, of human progress and how can I, how can I best solve, solve for that?"

[00:08:01] So, that was a big part of it. Um, at the time I actually got, I think I got it wrong. So, in 2017, like, right when we sold, my obsession was about the future of work. And it really bothered me that only, at the time, only 13% of people in the United States found their work meaningful, which seemed really bizarre and still does.

[00:08:20] Given the cultural obsession with work and how, you know, it seems that the point of the education system, at least the one I had just been through, was still, like, try to get you a job that you like. So, it seemed like an, like an abject failure of society that only 13% of people found their work meaningful. So I, I spent almost two years kind of working on that problem and trying different things in that space.

[00:08:42] And ultimately, what I came to find was that, you know, most of the problems with work are flowing downstream from problems with, with education. So, if you can fix the root problem of education, you can actually fix the secondary problem, uh, which is the future of work, mainly because you help people find what's meaningful to them much earlier and allow them to gain experience instead of just, you know, doing grades and tests and whatnot.

[00:09:05] You know, kind of these little hoops that we force kids to jump through. So, that was, that was one. Two was that I was personally experiencing this with, with my kids. So, my son turned four, and we started looking at places where he could go to school, and we would walk into, you know, a private school that cost 18, $18,000 a year for him to go there.

[00:09:24] And, uh, at the time, he could already read, and these kids were spelling, like, cat on a chalkboard. And, I mean, that's, that's totally fine. It's like some kids are in that, in that stage, but it was just like there was no choice in the matter and we had to pay an exorbitant amount of money in order to do that.

[00:09:39] So, you know, I just kind of had another one of those moments similar to Tenrocket, I call 'em, I call them f these moments where I was like, "I don't see anybody else, like, fixing this problem." Like, "Lemme take a crack at it."

[00:09:50] Richard Simms: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:51] Chris Turner: So, I spent the last half of 2019 doing almost like a PhD level thesis on, uh, why the education system hadn't changed and what the bottlenecks were.

[00:10:00] And that ended becoming a thesis for Moonrise, uh, which was, uh, really about, like you said, reimagining education.

[00:10:07] Richard Simms: Very cool. Very cool. So, I know there's a lot of sides of this, but in all of your research and learning over the last few years, like, I don't know if you had to articulate just like what are the biggest challenges in the education system, if you had to name, like, whatever it is, two or three that really stand out, what do you think those are?

[00:10:29] Chris Turner: You mean challenges with fixing it or challenges from, like, the parents or kids' perspective?

[00:10:35] Richard Simms: I think like the current shortcoming. So, I think, like on your experience, is it, you know, the curriculum not being customized to the student, is it cost, which obviously is a big, you know, driver of a lot of the inequity? Like, what do you think are some of the big pain points, at least that you seek to address, you know, now or in the future with Moonrise?

[00:10:56] Chris Turner: Yeah. So, the, the big problems are all problems of first principals. So, the starting point of schools is, is, I think, incorrect. So, uh, like, one problem is that there's just kind of a base assumption that it's correct to have, like, a standard curriculum, um, across the board. And what that means is that there's kind of this idea that there's a top-down approach,

[00:11:18] "These are the things that we think kids should learn. This is the way that we think kids should learn them. All kids should learn them at this stage of their lives and do it in this specific way." And even when there's flexibility, like, you know, there's, uh, like Montessori schools and that sort of thing that offer a little bit more flexibility, but the, that core, that core premise is really hard to break apart.

[00:11:39] Like, it's basically so tightly woven into the idea of school that you almost can't divorce that idea from the school. So, a lot of people that have tried to reform schools have said, "Okay, let's lower the teacher-student ratio." Or, "Let's, like, give a little bit more flexibility in the curriculum." But it's still a school, right?

[00:11:56] And that, that entire premise is based on, I think, a false assumption of how learning works and how kids develop. The biggest misconception, or now the, the biggest misconception, is that people learn by having information kind of dumped into their brains. Right? So, that's called the bucket theory of the mind.

[00:12:14] And learning is actually an active process that involves human creativity. So, if I just tell you, pandas are purple, you're gonna check that against, like, your observations and your own theories about pandas, and you're gonna say, "Wait a second. No, I'm pretty sure they're black and white." So, so you obviously can't just dump information non-critically into somebody's mind.

[00:12:31] It has to go through a creative process. And if that's true, then that involves things like criticism of ideas, even at, like, a very basic, like young level for kids. But the system is based around, like, almost non-criticism of ideas. So, so, if you're told something in school, it's taboo to question it or to say that, "I think I should learn this other way." Or take this other class that's more advanced.

[00:12:52] So, the problem with how we raise kids and how we educate kids is basically a problem of how we think of kids as different types of human being. If you think of them like you and I, like you and I are learning right now. We're applying creativity and criticism as we have this conversation, but there's no curriculum forcing that.

[00:13:08] Kids are no different. In fact, they're on a, on a hyper-track version of that, where they learn and absorb much faster than we do. Um, so, Moonrise basically starts with that premise and builds it back up from scratch instead of starting with things like, "Oh, okay, well, we should call it a school and have this curriculum or whatnot."

[00:13:24] Richard Simms: Right, right. That's all super interesting. And, again, I'm glad we're having this conversation because I have those two little kids, so all of it's real and very true. And I think there are just inherent, there's just an inherent like curiosity and creativity there that can be dampered if not given room, right,

[00:13:45] to, to run with. So, so, let's talk a little bit more about, you know, Moonrise itself. So, I haven't been, unfortunately, but I've driven, and I've certainly seen the pictures. Tell us about, like, the physical space and then what are kids, you know, doing there when they're, when they're there these days, like, I know there's some great resources available.

[00:14:03] Love to just get a little more rundown on the nitty-gritty of, of the space and the experience.

[00:14:08] Chris Turner: Sure. So, you know, kind of the, the thing that we did arrive at was the solution, which was, you know, I think the, the premise of Moonrise is that if we decouple space, which you might call childcare, from school, like this idea of dropping your kids off at a place where they learn and make friends. If you build a different place where they can do that, and you don't come with a pre-bundled curriculum that's for everybody,

[00:14:30] you can couple that with things like online learning and in-person experiences, and that in itself can reinvent the education system. So, so, that's the premise. And then, from that, you say, "Okay, well, what does it look like to design a space for kids?" And what's really cool about that is you get into the land of objectivity instead of so much variance, right?

[00:14:50] So, there's a ton, like almost infinite variance in the human mind. There's very little variance in spaces that people find objectively comfortable. So, so, for example, like if I build two spaces and one has no windows and concrete walls, and one has lots of windows and plants and wood, like the most people are, or if not all people are going to choose

[00:15:12] the, the second one. So, we kind of start with these objective design standards that all humans love. And we, and we started there for kids, which kinda led us down to, "Okay, well, do spaces need to be kitty?" Right? Like, "Do we need to have, like, clouds painted on the walls?" Right? And so, like most, most adults, when they walk into this space, the first thing they say is, "I would like to work here."

[00:15:34] Um, not, "Oh, my kids are gonna love it here." It's like, "Wow, this place is great. It kind of feels magical." And, and that's because we start with those very core design standards. So, you know, the way that I describe it is, you know, I, I already mentioned plants and natural sunlight and wood, and we have like velvet couches, and the air smells good.

[00:15:52] All that good stuff. But we also have things that are just fun tools to play with, and I think that's, that's needed for self-directed learning. So, we have a podcast studio, we have a garden, we have a maker space. We have lots of Legos and building blocks, and we have a giant library with a rolling ladder, kind of like straight outta childhood movies,

[00:16:14] with little reading notes tucked under the bottom. Um, we're constantly adding to that, too. We're looking at getting a kitchen soon, so we can do some healthy cooking classes. Um, and, yeah, maybe, maybe a pet Axolotl pretty soon.

[00:16:26] Richard Simms: That's awesome. Yeah, again, everything I see on the site in social media looks like a really engaging place, of course. And tell me more about, like, the folks on site. I think you, the guys, right, that I, I'm sure they're kind of just helping, like, make sure everything is, you know, these kids are, have the right oversight, but obviously are very free to explore.

[00:16:50] So, tell me more about them and then, like, how hands-off or hands-on are they in this stuff?

[00:16:55] Chris Turner: Sure. Yeah. So, there, there's been a bit of an evolution since we started. So, we, we really did, as you kind of noticed, I kind of worked my way up from, from base principles and, and go from there. So, we kind of started with just providing the space and the, the tools for learning. And that's almost like building a WeWork for kids, right?

[00:17:13] So, the, the first thing we realized, I guess, like about halfway through is what we had built was basically like WeWork for kids, except kids don't necessarily have jobs. So, it'd be like going to WeWork without a job. And so, we started thinking, kind of back to my roots about like, "Okay, what does it look like to have meaningful work for kids?"

[00:17:30] So, this ties into guides because, at first, the guides were really there to kind of serve as models and facilitators, which I still think is the case, that's very much borrowed from Montessori. I think they get a lot of things right there. The, these aren't like, guides aren't like sources of, of knowledge, per se, that are just, like, lecturing kids on, on how to go about the world.

[00:17:51] But when a kid has a problem that they're having trouble solving or something that they wanna like dive into, that's based on their interest, that's what the guides are there for. Given that evolution that I mentioned, we're starting now to look into, uh, things like hands-on projects and experiences that kind of provide the exposure and meaningful work component that I think kids would be missing if all we did was build space.

[00:18:14] Now, there's an argument to me, to be made, and this is the argument that I made before we opened, and increasingly that meaningful work, like it has for adults, is going to be moving online. So, kids are gonna have an increasing number of learning experiences online and, you know, the future, like maybe in 20 years, is gonna be like kids in a space like Moonrise with their iPads or, or devices doing a lot of their learning online, in addition to these in-person experiences. I still think that's true, but we have to scaffold it a little bit better for parents. There's an old, like, story about Lego, where Lego started off just with a box of, like, bricks that would, that they would send to kids. And kids loved that, and it was like totally up to their imaginations, but parents weren't buying it to the rate that, uh, Lego's satisfied with. So, Lego started

[00:18:58] implementing, uh, and selling kits to parents. So, you started to see, like, the Star Wars kits, and then sales went through the roof. So, we're kind of like right on the cusp of that same transition where we're figuring out what the Lego kit equivalent is for parents, couple theories about it, so.

[00:19:13] Richard Simms: Right, right. That's a great analogy. So, also, you know, I think, like, community seems to be a big focus for Moonrise, right? And I imagine it's not just among the kids, but the parents, the families, you know, it being in Decatur, I, I think in general there's a lot of rich community there. So, can you expand a bit, you know, what you're seeing amongst the kids, but also kind of the broader ecosystem?

[00:19:41] Chris Turner: Sure. So, I mean, from a macro perspective, I think community is becoming increasingly important to people, not in the sense that it's talked about. Like, a lot of people say, "Oh, like, we're missing community because we're becoming increasingly secular. We used to have these communities in churches, and now we kind of don't have those.

[00:19:58] So, let's do things like build online communities and discord channels and that sort of thing." I think those things help, but I, I don't think those are the same thing. Like, a community is actually like, it's more like a tribe where there's a little bit of codependency there. And people really support each other.

[00:20:14] They're having dinner at each other's houses. That's, that's the community that we're trying to build, and I think that we're uniquely able to build, both because we're kind of starting with people's kids, so naturally, communities form around, you know, where people's kids go to learn. And when your kids make friends, you're more likely to have those kids together, which means you'll engage more with the parents.

[00:20:34] So, we're seeing a lot of, uh, organic community emerge just from the fact that we have a space for kids here, uh, where they're engaging with kids that they wouldn't have otherwise. So, now what we're trying to do is, is actually be more intentional about that. And we dabbled with this a little bit last year.

[00:20:50] We have these things called Family Sundays, where we bring people together from eleven o'clock to one o'clock on the last Sunday of every month for kinda a, uh, like a catered lunch in our space. And that's the one day that parents are actually able to be in Moonrise with their kids. We also did a holiday that we invented, called Apollo Day, which was, uh, a celebration of the Moon landing as, as is like on brand for me with human progress.

[00:21:13] Yeah. So, that was, uh, on the anniversary of the Moon landing. We'll keep doing that every year. And then, yeah, we do things like we stay open late on Sun, on, uh, Friday nights so the parents can have a built-in date night. Those are kind of the starting points, but, you know, we're, we're working on an app to include a lot more touchpoints so parents can engage a lot more with each other, plan visits together, that sort of thing.

[00:21:32] Richard Simms: Yeah. Yeah. So, that kind of dovetails into another question I wanted to ask. So, I'm gonna, I'm gonna skip my intended order here little bit, but, you know, you obviously with, with Moonrise, the kids are paramount, right? But at the end of the day, like, their parents are gonna make the decision, and certainly, their parents are gonna be responsible for the financial component at a minimum.

[00:21:59] Obviously, we know parents are very protective, as they should be, and very invested in their kids. So, how hard has it been to educate parents kind of on a new model, gain their trust? I'm sure that's very delicate, but something that's top-of-mind, you know, for you all throughout all this. So, can you just expand on how you've gone about that?

[00:22:20] Like, what's worked, what's been your approach?

[00:22:23] Chris Turner: Yeah. That's a really good question. So, I, I think up, especially up until this point, we've avoided that question a good bit because of how we've structured the model and the business. So, I think one of the problems, this was another one of, I think your first question might have been like one of the problems with, you know, the education system and school, which got into like why it hasn't changed and that sort of thing.

[00:22:44] One of the problems is that, let's say you invent the perfect school, that's like literally perfect. When you go and tell parents about that, you run into things like they have perceived risks with anything new. And then you also have things like switching costs, right? So, like, even if it's great, like, unless it's perceived as like a hundred times better, right,

[00:23:04] which is like an almost impossible bar to hit, then you're met with things like, "Oh, well, we live here. And we moved to this house and paid a million dollars so that we could send our kids here, and their friends are there and they like their teacher here." Right? So, those are like the kind of pragmatic, uh, concerns with building anything new in education.

[00:23:24] So, from the earliest days, we were like, "Hey, listen, like, we are a space for kids to learn. Like, that's, we, we lack the curriculum, which means that you can bring your own learning philosophy." It's kinda like how we, going back to the WeWork analogy, like, WeWork's not your employer, right? They just provide the space for you to do your work, right?

[00:23:40] So, it's like that. Now, and I know you haven't asked this yet, but we're, we're focused on, on homeschooling and kind of the, the future of homeschooling. And the cool thing about homeschooling is that that is also true. The whole, the whole point of homeschooling is that the parents have control to use their own beliefs and learning systems and curricula, even if that means no curricula, like, like unschooling, and Moonrise provides the space in the community and the, I guess, supplemental things that they would normally get in school.

[00:24:09] But, you know, with kind of a prepackaged thing that they can just subscribe to. So, we've still kind of avoided that question, which is kind of the point. We're more like, we're more like the United States than we are like the king, right?

[00:24:21] Richard Simms: Right. All right. I love it. And, yeah, since you brought it up, it, it's definitely something that I want to ask about. You know, I know it's a, maybe not a dramatic shift, but a shift where you're moving more towards providing a solution for parents who are homeschooling or want to homeschool like you said.

[00:24:39] So, tell me more about like, what, what drove you to that pivot, if you think it's fair to characterize it that way? And, and love to just unpack, like, what you see as kind of the big trends there in homeschooling, in general.

[00:24:51] Chris Turner: Yeah. It is, it sounds silly 'cause it's obvious to a lot of people, but it's probably the hardest decision I've ever made as a Founder. I mean, one consequence of that decision is that a non-home schooler is less likely to sign up for Moonrise because we say homeschool with Moonrise on the website. And we have kids that are not homeschoolers who are still members that think of Moonrise as their favorite place on Earth, and they don't that, they tell us that.

[00:25:17] So, that's really hard to think those kids wouldn't possibly have experienced Moonrise if we had done this from the beginning. So therefore, that will happen in the future, and we may not meet those kids who would've called Moonrise their favorite place. Right. So, that's been the hard part. The good thing is that, I guess, compared to where we start, started, Moonrise, I think now is legitimately a 10 x better product.

[00:25:42] Meaning, if you're everything for everybody, you don't have a, a point of positioning or pivoting against, right? There's no solid footing. So, you know, when, when Moonrise can be used for, and it was, anything from babysitting to the future of education, like when other people are talking about it, it's like in what context?

[00:26:02] Right? So, so, it kind of defaults to the normal, common derivative, which is childcare, right? But with homeschooling is totally different. Like, homeschooling, first of all, that's like very much in mind with why I started the company, right? It's like we are literally trying to reimagine education, right?

[00:26:19] And you can't do that with babysitting, at least I don't think, anymore. So, if you compare Moonrise to a private school and the reasons that a parent would, that a parent would sign up for a private school, even with that, even if we literally are 10 times better than a private school, it's hard to get parents to believe that we're 10 times better than private school.

[00:26:38] But compared to homeschooling, which I think is actually more effective than private schools, from a learning perspective, and more, assuming that you, uh, well, we'll get into, like, the problems that we solve with, like, childcare, but assuming that you are interested in that and down for what that means, like it's actually better for your family to spend that time together and to have the flexibility that, that it affords. So, homeschooling is great. That literally means exiting the education system, but homeschooling also means you are, you're parents, principal, teacher, best friend, sometimes counselor. And, like, it, it's a bit like, like if you, if you, if you do it full-time, you can't work. So, it's, it's a bit like paying for a really expensive private school that you run by yourself. 

[00:27:22] And, you know, this doesn't even get into the common challenges that people talk about, like socialization and, you know, and, like, sometimes a stigma that comes with it, that has a lot of historical baggage. So, you compare that to what we're doing with Moonrise, and it's like, "Here's a space with a bunch of stuff that you don't have in your house.

[00:27:38] Here are trained, experienced learning guides whose sole purpose is to expose your kids to a whole bunch of new subjects, right, that have, like, a teaching background, that sort of thing." Like, "Here's, here's a community of other kids so that they can make friends of all ages, including friends that, that aren't necessarily homeschooled."

[00:27:56] 'Cause, again, we still have people sign up even though we've, we've made this pivot if they're not homeschooling. So, I think, I think Moonrise is legitimately like, I'll, I'll go to the grave and say we are at least 10 times better than, than standard solo homeschooling. Right. And homeschooling is the fastest-growing market in education.

[00:28:13] The tools for learning online are getting exponentially better. I mean, like AI is getting really insane right now. So, what's this gonna look like in 10 years? I think the opportunity with Moonrise is that if you think of how good these tools will be in 10 years, and you have things like Moonrise existing, it'll seem crazy to people, like, the, the idea of sending them to a regular school,

[00:28:35] when you can do those two things together. I mean, especially considering that, you know, depending on where you live, Moonrise, even full-time, would be, uh, as much as four times cheaper than a private school.

[00:28:44] Richard Simms: Especially. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's definitely hard to imagine the traditional education system keeping up with those technology trends, which I certainly agree are gonna be completely revolutionary in, in a lot of respects. Okay, cool. So, one question I had kind of more in the weeds, but as you all shift more to this focus on homeschooling, like, is the vision that parents can be more involved and this is like partially a space for them to work with their kids,

[00:29:18] or is it still more, you know, "No, we have our guides, and this is primarily for your kid to explore and have the resources to, to learn."

[00:29:28] Chris Turner: Totally. So, at the moment, I think there are kind of two paths, and we're either going to do one of them or both of them. Right now, we are experimenting with both of them. So, there are people out there who, let's say, have been homeschooling for, yeah, I don't know, call it five years, something like that.

[00:29:45] And maybe the mom doesn't work, or the dad doesn't work, or something, and they're the primary ones homeschooling their kids. These people are basically like I said, they're, they're, they're running their own private schools, so they are very, very similar outside of the work that they're doing to the level of satisfaction of somebody that sends their kids to a private school that they like.

[00:30:06] Right. So, so their needs are different from somebody that's brand new to homeschooling or considering homeschooling, who maybe, like, works full time, right? So, I, I kind of grouped this into school-satisfied and school-unsatisfied people, uh, broadly. So, school-unsatisfied people want flexible childcare and supplemental learning, like, along with the community, right?

[00:30:29] School-unsatisfied people are kind of looking for a primary learning idea, like, like a philosophy of learning, which is when you get into all the different school models and, and includes getting into things like homeschooling, right? So, long-winded way of answering your question, but Moonrise can actually solve both today.

[00:30:49] The way that we solve the school-satisfied problem is by providing kind of more like this, this gets into the Lego analogy, again, right, things like classes and projects and field trips, those sorts of things. I mean, really those are learning experiences with the guide, either at Moonrise or somewhere else, right?

[00:31:09] So, I mean, structurally, they, they scale really well, and they're not too hard to, to implement. So, we'll start that. We're actually starting those again. Uh, we ran a couple tests last year. We're starting those up again, uh, within the next two weeks. I think school-unsatisfied are people who don't necessarily want to just immediately take full ownership of the curriculum, per se.

[00:31:29] And instead of providing a curriculum, which if, if we ever do that, then we are a school. So, the idea is never to do that. But we can provide a whole lot of guidance, and we can get better and better at providing guidance over time, um, with things, like, we recommend based on your kids' interests. We recommend this math tool online,

[00:31:50] this science experiment, these projects that we offer at Moonrise. And at that point, you become more like, like a doctor prescribing medicine than you do the pharmaceutical company like trying to invent the medicine.

[00:32:04] Richard Simms: Great.

[00:32:05] Chris Turner: So, I think we'll do both. And right now we're kind of experimenting by calling the first one Go and the second one our Pro Plan.

[00:32:12] Richard Simms: Cool. Okay. Okay. And I know, looking at the website too, it looks like you all are gonna be opening new locations. So, what, what's the vision there like, you know, and maybe, I'm sure this will evolve too, or maybe there's some different things you have in mind, but what's the model? Will it be more like, you know, a franchise model where someone's smart that, you know, you all vet wants to open their own location with your guidance and support, or are you all gonna really try to directly manage them?

[00:32:41] Like, how do you think that will, will play out?

[00:32:43] Chris Turner: Yeah. We put that little button on our site, in the footer, just like, maybe two months ago, like, "open a Moonrise in your neighborhood." We've had almost 40 people click that button with no marketing, which is really cool. Yeah, I mean, from all over the world, too. Somebody clicked it in New Zealand and...

[00:32:57] I mean, by the way, these are people that have reached out to me, so I haven't run the analytics. There's probably a lot more that have clicked. So, it's cool. Like, we have a lot of people that are interested in opening a Moonrise, so we're hitting on some kind of, you know, core problem there, I think.

[00:33:08] Yeah, so the growth model is really interesting. I mean, the most obvious thing to do is to just do a traditional franchise, right? Like, offset the cost of capital to, to a franchisee, give them more local ownership of, of the, uh, space and, you know, really just provide the brand and the proven model so that they can, they can grow it.

[00:33:28] Now, within the world of franchising, there's a whole bunch of different models that range from something like a McDonald's to something like a Chick-fil-A. So, on that scale, we kind of trend more towards Chick-fil-A, but when you trend more towards Chick-fil-A, then you have to outset more of the capital yourself.

[00:33:42] So, that's kinda the place that we're in right now, is like, "What's the right blend, and what's our right positioning within that model?" But I don't think we're going to go the Starbucks route where we, like, wholly own all of our individual locations and staff them. The main reason for that is I think there's a lot of local domain expertise that's really important for communities.

[00:34:01] Like, I, if I didn't live in Decatur, probably wouldn't have known to get the space that we, that we got. And then, beyond that, I just think, I kind of buy into the localist aspect of franchising. Like, I think it's, it's a more robust and maybe even an anti-fragile system for growth. It makes it more likely to survive at local.

[00:34:20] Richard Simms: Yeah. Okay. Very cool. Very cool. All Right. So, a few more questions. So, I always like to ask, you know, so you're, you're five years in, I think, with Moonrise, what have been your biggest challenges so far? You know, we always want for listeners to kind of get the, the good, bad, and the ugly about startup life, right?

[00:34:40] Like, what have been the toughest parts so far in your experience with Moonrise?

[00:34:45] Chris Turner: Yeah, that's a really good question. So, I mean, it is probably the hardest problem to solve, and I'm doing it like, I have a, I have a really good network of advisors, and I have a really supportive wife and we have some great investors and we've hired really well. So, I mean, my first, my first bit of advice would be either to not do it alone or to have, like, a really good, you know, support network around you.

[00:35:12] Um, I don't regret at all the decision to go after a really nasty problem. 'Cause at some point somebody's gonna do it, and I happen to love this problem. So, I think I'm in a really good position. I, I might be the best person to work on it. I hope I'm the best person to work on it. But the, the challenges are, I mean, just enormous.

[00:35:28] So, it's a physical space, with kids that's never in, that's never existed. So, I mean, just off the bat, like three days after we opened, we got a cease and desist letter from, from, right from the start, which is the, uh, regulating body of, of childcare issues in Georgia. So, we had to untangle that web, I mean, the, the day that I got that I had to rush to get something sent to them overnight, like a letter back, and I, somebody pulled out in front of me and I, uh, had to veer my truck over, uh, into this, this yard of a senior center and, uh, got, got in an accident.

[00:36:01] Yeah. So, I mean, uh, it's just like, stuff like that. Um, so, that's, it's like one of, one of those things, like when it rains, it pours. Like, that seems to hold up pretty well for, for startups, especially, like, the bigger problem you're trying to solve. Uh, so, yeah, real estate regulation, those things are really hard.

[00:36:18] Um, you know, I, I think for Moonrise, in particular, like we're selling to somebody that is not our core user. So, if I invented a new brand of shoes, like whoever's buying those shoes, I guess, unless it's kids shoes, uh, usually your customer is the person that's using the product. So, uh, the desires of parents for their kids usually, actually, don't align with the desire, the desires of the kids themselves.

[00:36:41] So, like, this is why the problem is such a hard one to solve. Um, I think those are like specific to Moonrise. There's just part for the course challenges, like raising money. I mean, for Moonrise, like we opened five days before Christmas, in the middle of Omicron, like a brand new space for kids. So, that was hard.

[00:36:59] Richard Simms: Right. Yeah.

[00:37:02] Chris Turner: I'll stop there. Like, it's really hard in a lot of ways, but we're still alive.

[00:37:06] Richard Simms: No. Yeah. I mean, I sincerely am very impressed with where you all are at and, you know, like I said, I've kept, kept an eye on things, and I think that from the get-go, yes, I mean, I was very aware like this is a tough space, the regulation, all of that, of course, like liability, et cetera. And then, you know, I mean, almost everyone was affected in a business sense by COVID, but, like, not every business is so obviously

[00:37:33] gonna hit a lot of roadblocks there. So, I'm impressed that you all have, have powered through all that. And, on a happier note, like what have been your biggest wins? I'm sure there's some things that stand out in your mind, whether that's like this one kid that said X or this, you know, parent that told, like, what are some of the highlights for you that have really helped make it all worth it?

[00:37:54] Chris Turner: Yeah. This is, uh, this is usually the point because we've been so, through so much that like, I, I have to be really careful 'cause I, I get kind of emotional about this stuff sometimes. I mean, given the number of kids that we've served, which is still relatively small, you know, compared to our ambitions, we have a,

[00:38:14] like interesting, surprising number of them who think of Moonrise as their favorite place in the world. Um, like, I hear that all the time. And we, we don't, like, even though I have these kind of core beliefs about human progress and that sort of thing, and that's kind of infused into our culture, I don't, like, sit kids down and say, "Here's how to think about Moonrise and here's why it's special."

[00:38:35] So when a, when a, when a riser articulates back their reasons for liking Moonrise without prompting, which is usually like, like, if I said, um, you know, "What do you like about Moonrise, uh, what do you, what do you most like?" Quite often, the response is something it'll, it would blow your mind. It's things like, and it did blow my mind,

[00:38:52] it's, it's like, "This is the only place in the world I can be free and be myself." Right? So, when you hear that from a child when that's like your reason for starting the company, like those are, those are the best moments. Last week, one of our, our newest members, came in with her mom who just moved up from New Orleans for a few months to do, uh, they're in the film industry and, this is pretty common too,

[00:39:15] like, she just feels like this is such an unmet need. And she's already seen such a transformation in her kids that she started crying, like, when she was here, um, 'cause it meant so much to her. And then, later that day, her husband reached out about opening a space when they moved back to New Orleans. So, I mean, those are, those are definitely the best moments, and those are really what pulls you through 'cause there's so much self-doubt, like, "Am I really doing this right?" Like, that sort of thing. But when somebody says that, you're like, "All right, I'm gonna keep going for those people. 'Cause we all want that."

[00:39:47] Richard Simms: Yeah. That's amazing. I mean, that must feel good, and not many people get to have, like, that close of a, uh, a view into the impact they're having. So, I love it. Okay. One last question. So, again, you've started a couple businesses, you've been through many of the normal challenges, also some unique to Moonrise.

[00:40:09] For, for someone listening, who is a first-time founder or considering starting, you know, whether it's a business or a nonprofit, like what are a couple of the, the main pieces of advice that you would give them?

[00:40:22] Chris Turner: Advice is tricky because, like, it's, it's everywhere, and you have to, like, sift through a lot of it, right? And quite often, it's given out of context for what they're going through. So, there's obvious things that I'll start with, and I'll, I'll say things like, there's really good books and really good advice all over the place.

[00:40:40] Like, you can read Zero to One and read everything that Peter Thiel has to say about, about startups, and you should definitely do those things. Right. So, at some point, as a Founder, like if you're really a well-intentioned founder and you're studying the greats, and you're going about all this stuff that you're supposed to do, at some point, you kind of run out of, of things.

[00:40:59] Like, you start seeing the same advice over and over, and things start to stagnate a little bit. So, that's the space that I like to play in, is like, I've kind of reached the point where I, I very rarely hear like a new theory about startups and that sort of thing. So, I like to play in that space where I try to, like, say something new that other people don't really talk about.

[00:41:17] Like, I think there's not enough said, like, like people prop up startups to be like this really sexy thing.

[00:41:26] Richard Simms: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:27] Chris Turner: And a lot of people tell you to start companies and that sort of thing. I mean, I think the core of it is that this problem, like, like you should really spend a lot of time thinking about, like, what really matters to you as if you're, like, going to die in a couple years.

[00:41:41] Right? Like, as much as you can remove, it's, it's not about ego, it's like, it's more like you're an artist, right? It's like if, like, "Even if this won't succeed, like, what is it that I want to have stood for?" Right? And then all you do is you try to, like, make that thing actually work. And if it doesn't, like, people ask me all the time, like, oh, like, you know, doing podcasts like this, like you just say everything that, like, that you've, uh, just learned, like, so you've given this information for free, and now you know somebody's gonna be listening and they're gonna copy this, or something like that.

[00:42:15] And I'm like, "Great." Like, somebody else fixes education. I'm gonna send my kid there, and I'm gonna go work on life extension or something like that. Like, it's, it's like, it should be as egoless as possible, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't apply your artistic craft to it. Um, so, with Moonrise, like, every day I'm like, "Okay, like, if I died tomorrow, did I, like, stand for the right things?"

[00:42:38] Like, "Was I trying to make it work because, like, it wasn't working in the moment, or is this what I think should exist, like, even a thousand years from now?" Right? So, just getting to that place, I think, is so hard, but so worth doing, instead of just kind of asking kind of trade questions like, "Oh, like, what's the size of X market?"

[00:42:57] Or, I don't know, like, "What can I flip in five years?" Or something like that, right?

[00:43:02] Um, yeah. Anyway, I hope that's, that's noble. Maybe it's not, but.

[00:43:06] Richard Simms: No, I think that's great, and I, I really appreciate that, yeah, you're not just parroting back kind of the same tidbits of advice that, you know, are valid but can be easily found elsewhere.

[00:43:18] Chris Turner: Right, right. 

[00:43:20] Richard Simms: Awesome, man. Well, okay. So, looks like we're about out of time. This has been great. You've had some really great stuff that you've shared here. So, thank you so much, Chris.

[00:43:28] Before we sign off, where can listeners go to connect with you and learn more about Moonrise, and then, what can they do to support your mission?

[00:43:36] Chris Turner: Yeah, thanks. Uh, so, let's see. The, the only social media place I'm actually active is on Twitter, so they can follow me at @_cturner. Um, I'm pretty responsive there. I probably spend a little too much time on Twitter. They can also email me, chris@moonrise.com, and then obviously, our website is moonrise.com. So they can learn more about us there.

[00:43:55] Reach out to me. Supporting us, I mean, I, I love two things. One is signing up. So, sign up or, like, just, just like, like bump into me somehow. Like, send me an email, just reach out, engage in some dialogue. Even if you hate this, like especially if you hate this, right? Like, tell me why, I love and, like, thrive on, like, the really high highs and the really low lows.

[00:44:14] So, the stuff in the middle, like, doesn't usually move things forward, but if you really love something or really hate something, that's usually where the magic is. So, tell me those things. And if you don't have any, like, hate things, and you happen to be interested in homeschooling and wanna give it a shot, then obviously signing up would, would really help us out.

[00:44:30] Richard Simms: Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks again for coming on. I'm looking forward to continuing to see Moonrise grow, and appreciate you being on the show.

[00:44:38] Chris Turner: Thanks, Richard. It was really fun.

[00:44:40] Richard Simms: Thank you.

[00:44:40] Chris Turner: All right.