Join the Fight for a Healthier Planet with Ed Thomas of 412 Technology

In this episode of The Digital Footprint, Ed Thomas of 412 Technology, joins us to talk about his journey developing Arbor, a  marketplace where consumers can discover and back inspiring carbon removal projects around the world. The Arbor mobile app makes it easy for each of us to do our part in the fight against climate change. 

Ed shares his insights on app development, green technology, and his scrappy approach to launching a startup. He also announces Arbor's upcoming public launch and calls on our communities to join the fight for a healthier planet.

Guest-at-a-Glance

💡 Name: Ed Thomas

💡 What he does: Ed is a co-founder and CEO of 412 Technology which has developed a mobile app, Hazel, that empowers consumers to help reverse climate change.

💡 Company/Project: Hazel is a marketplace for consumers to find out and back specific carbon removal projects. 

💡 Noteworthy: "What we've seen is that there's a ton of great work that's focused on directly removing carbon from the atmosphere. That carbon is what's causing the climate crisis that we see right now."

💡 Where to find Ed: LinkedIn, 412 Technology

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Connect with our cohosts Richard Simms & Carlos Gonzalez on Linkedin

Transcript

E661389B_6 - TT - Digital Footprint - Ed Thomas - Transcript

[00:00:00] Richard Simms: [00:00:00] Now. Hello and welcome to the Digital Footprint. I'm Richard Simms and this podcast is brought to you by Tyrannosaurus Tech, an award-winning technology partner dedicated to designing and developing high-impact software products. We have a great guest today, Ed Thomas, co-founder and CEO of 412 Technology. Ed, really excited to have you on the show.

[00:00:25] Ed Thomas: [00:00:25] Thank you, Richard. I'm really excited to be here.

[00:00:27] Richard Simms: [00:00:27] Very cool. So, you and I were first introduced, I think, a little over a year ago at this point, and I've really enjoyed just getting to know you and following your journey with your product "Arbor." It's a very cool product. I know it's already having a huge impact, relatively early on in the journey, which is awesome,

[00:00:47] and I'm really looking forward to just digging into the details a little bit more with you today. So, to jump right in and just get started, do you mind just taking 60 seconds or so to quickly introduce yourself and just [00:01:00] tell folks about 412, 412 Technology and what you're up to with Arbor specifically?

[00:01:05] Ed Thomas: [00:01:05] Yeah, you bet. Happy to, and again, thank you for having me on the, on the show this afternoon. I really appreciate it. I've been a big fan, it's exciting to get to actually take part. So yeah, as you mentioned, my name is Ed Thomas, I'm the CEO and co-founder of 412 Technology, and in that role, I take care of everything from product design work to overseeing some of our marketing activities, fundraising and kind of everything in between.

[00:01:26] And, we are aggressively staffing up right now. So, it's an exciting time to be part of the organization and work quickly, building a really great team of individuals around it. Let me tell you though, about our core product, which is called "Arbor". So, Arbor is a marketplace for consumers to find out and back specific carbon removal projects.

[00:01:44] What we've seen as being people in the climate change space is that there's a ton of really great work that's happening, that's really focused on directly removing carbon from the atmosphere. Obviously that carbon is what's causing the climate crisis that we're seeing right now. These are projects that are everything [00:02:00] from urban forestry projects or, or reforestation projects that often are overseas or here in the States, to things like Korean rooftops or Direct Air Capture.

[00:02:10] Even some really cool stuff coming out of lab work right now around engineered materials and stuff like that. What Arbor is, it's really the central place for all of those different projects to come together, to raise the funding that they need to continue to expand their carbon removal work directly from consumers who want to help reverse climate change.

[00:02:29] So in that way, you can think of us almost, it's like a Kickstarter for climate change or something like that. So, for instance, say you're in average Atlanta, you've got a decent-size house, maybe use natural gas for cooking and for an, and for heating your home, you drive an SUV, come to and from work, and in non-COVID times, at least, every day, you're probably generating somewhere between one and two tons of carbon every month.

[00:02:53] Which, yeah, obviously it's a lot, even on an individual basis, but then particularly once you start to roll that up across the entire [00:03:00] society, that's a ton of carbon dioxide that we're generating through our platform. You can fund projects out there that are actively removing that carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.

[00:03:11] Or, if you want to go a step further, you can fund a little bit more than that and really become part of the climate change solution, and help roll back across the board for all of us. And so, we're really excited about it, 'cause we're, we see this as a way for average users to have a direct impact and to really take charge and become part of the climate change solution.

[00:03:31] Richard Simms: [00:03:31] Awesome. Yeah, that's very cool. And, climate change is such a huge challenge. I think it's daunting. And at times it's hard to remain optimistic about it, but it sounds like you all definitely are and have faith in individuals coming together collectively to rise to the challenge.

[00:03:50] And I think, that's what a lot of people struggle with is like, "What can I actually do in my day to day?" So, I think that's very neat that you all are bridging that gap and giving people [00:04:00] a way to do that. That's pretty intuitive and accessible. I love it. So, how did you all come across?

[00:04:06] Or how did this idea develop, what was the original idea? Did it morph over time? Was there a particular "Aha!" moment that pushed you all over the edge to pursue this as a separate venture? I'd love to hear some of the background there, too.

[00:04:22] Ed Thomas: [00:04:22] Yeah, a hundred percent well and enriched. I think he really hit the nail on the head from our standpoint, which is that, climate change is this mm, massive problem that we're all facing. And, we're already seeing the impacts of it, right from it being mid-eighties in early April to the hurricanes that we're seeing every fall to the fire season that we're now seeing on the West Coast.

[00:04:44] We're starting to really see some of these impacts, and I think we're, as a society, finally starting to realize what's going on around us. We take a different tack that, I think, than a lot of folks. So, the solution that a lot of people come to is, it's such a big problem.

[00:04:59] It's [00:05:00] got to be solved by somebody else, right? It's gotta be solved by corporate America. Google's got to step in and save us somehow, or it's gotta be a government solution or some inter-governmental solution of super governmental solution. Like the UN that's got to try to coordinate some massive effort, and

[00:05:18] the position that we took in studying this problem and really researching it is that we actually all have the power to be part of the solution. It's all of us who got us into this mess in the first place, naivete or just not fully realizing what's going on. We're the people that caused this crisis.

[00:05:35] Yeah. It's really us that can help us get out of this. And so, what we started to do is we said, "What is it? What can we do that just makes, okay, easy for average consumers, like you and me who are reading the news and panicking about what's going on and seeing the impact that we're starting to see on the climate crisis around us, right?

[00:05:54] What can we do? What can we make, how can we create something that is a easy, simple [00:06:00] platform for folk, for folks to take direct action, that they have a direct impact? And that was really the genesis for Arbor. There is a ton of really exciting project work that's going on already out there in the world, over chance, the opportunity and the ability to really have an impact and to not just stop the rate that there, that things are getting worse,

[00:06:20] which is step one that everyone's focused on. But then, take that second step that we're really focused on of saying, "Hey, how can we start to improve things and remove the carbon that we've admitted over the past 200 years in the atmosphere and get the planet back onto a longterm or sustainable, this sustainable pathway?

[00:06:37] Those, that work is already there. We have the technology. We've got the electrification ability to decarbonize the grid as part of that first step of not making the problem any worse. And we also have the technologies to get us that next step, by starting to remove it, right, and unwind the problem and improve things.

[00:06:54] Some people joke that we're the most high-tech way to plant a tree, [00:07:00] right? Because, a lot of what we're doing is things like reforestation, right, and habitat reconstruction that has a, an impact on removing carbon levels from the atmosphere. And so again, our focus is on, how do we make it easy for you to take a small little step,

[00:07:16] and for what's typically a couple of dollars a month, for most average users to unwind the impact of that tank of gas that you had to buy to, to fill up your SUV, to go to work? How do we make it easier for you to unwind the impact of the electrical usage at your house? Just simple steps like that,

[00:07:33] that really have a dramatic impact, when you start to think about all of us as a community, collectively taking these actions together and coming together to solve the problem, whether corporate America gets on board or our governmental leaders take charge and actually start working the problem or not, there's things that we can do today to make things better.

[00:07:52] Richard Simms: [00:07:52] Absolutely. So, what was the progression of initially having this idea, identifying an opportunity to have a big [00:08:00] impact, what was that timeline of that, the early discussions with your co-founder to you all truly pursuing this full-time? Was it something you worked on in a limited capacity for a while, and then got to that tipping point and just went for it?

[00:08:15] Or how did that happen?

[00:08:17] Ed Thomas: [00:08:17] Yeah, Arbor has been a very different startup than other startups that I've worked on. So this is my fourth business that I've started up, and typically for other ones, and I know this is more common out there for other entrepreneurs as well, you identify a problem and you see a solution for it,

[00:08:31] and you go, "Hey man, it stinks to get home from the bar late at night after I've had a a couple of drinks and I can't get a taxi to come; it'd be really cool if I could tap a button on my phone and have a car show up and take me home." And then, like, years later, we have Uber.

[00:08:45] Arbor has been very different in that. My, my founder and I, we knew we wanted to do something in climate change. We knew that we wanted to focus on this area. We also knew that there is a lot of activity and [00:09:00] incredibly skilled people and smart folks that are focused on things at the corporate level.

[00:09:04] And, how can we make it easier for Apple to make their footprint green and stuff like that? But we said, "Gosh, there's not really anything that I can do. I can go put a tree in my yard or drive a Tesla, or, there's, dad put solar panels on the house, if I'm in the right spot,

[00:09:20] but, all of these are pretty limited and it's just a one-off impact, for just me. Gosh, there's gotta be something better." And so, we put the stake in the ground. We said, "All right, we're going to do that. You really know what that is, but we're going to do that." And then, we spent, gosh, the better part of six months trying to identify what's the, that.

[00:09:36] And, we looked at everything from like Renewable Energy Credit trading to some opportunities on the Blockchain, all across the board. And, we finally realized, "Hey, there, there's this, a whole universe of projects that are small and mid-size and tend to be underfunded. They tend to work with and focus on underserved and underprivileged communities,

[00:09:58] which is cool in its own, [00:10:00] and they're desperate for capital. Wow. What if there's a way that we could bring this portfolio of carbon removal projects to the broader marketplace and can we create something that's fun and exciting that users would enjoy using that would enable them to fund these projects out there, that are doing real world work and having a real impact and need help and support?"

[00:10:20] And that was the genesis of Arbor and we've focused from day one on really evolving that concept-in-concert with  a core of a couple of hundred users who are our testing community and our initial customer base, and constantly refining and iterating on that with them to get to the point that we're at now.

[00:10:37] And I should say, as background preface, we're probably two months out from a public launch. So, we're planning on launching probably two or three months, probably mid-to-late summer of this year, and are working on some exciting kind of final pieces of that product experience that will really make the product sing.

[00:10:53] But yeah, it's been a very different journey, I think, than most field folk, most folks do, where like, we didn't have that epiphany [00:11:00] moment. It's been more of a, it's been more of a process of sculpture where we started with a chunk of marble, and we've just been hacking off little pieces here and there and then suddenly go, "Oh, it's, hopefully it's turning into the {pata}and not into something I would have done in third grade."

[00:11:13] And, we're in the process of still refining that right now.

[00:11:16] Richard Simms: [00:11:16] Yeah, I think that's great. And what I like is, I think in the startup world, there, there is the saying "Fall in love with the problem, not the solution", and it sounds like you all very much heated that advice. You can ultimately derail your chances of success.

[00:11:32] If you're so fixated on the solution that you're passionate about, really, you need to just be looking for the best way to address a particular problem, and open-minded ultimately about what that solution looks like, and that's part of just facilitating pivots and being really iterative, as you've said, through the early stages of a startup.

[00:11:52] So, I think that's great. So, we all know startups are very hard, and this is not your first rodeo, so I [00:12:00] think you knew that going into it, but what would you say have been the biggest challenges so far with Arbor and how have you all overcome them?

[00:12:09] Ed Thomas: [00:12:09] Yeah, that's a great question. We've hit all of the other common issues that everyone does; lack of funding and things changing in the marketplace, and we were chasing down one concept initially and, thank God, got legal advice early on and realized actually that was probably illegal,

[00:12:24] so we said, "Okay, we can't, we probably shouldn't do that. We don't want to violate security's regulations." And so, we've dealt with all those issues I think are very common to a, to a startup. The one that we've really, I think struggled with the most, is that community engagement on the product development process.

[00:12:41] So, what I mentioned just now is that we've tried to be very intentional about working with our community of early users and early adopters to identify the solution that they are really excited about, realizing full well, that what I think and what I believe is cool and exciting, it [00:13:00] doesn't really matter unless I'm going to spend millions of dollars on my own product.

[00:13:03] What matters is what everyone else thinks is really cool and exciting and impactful, and the challenge with that is continually engaging those folks, and not burning that community out; it's all I'm thinking about, every moment of the day, I've spent focused on Arbor and thinking about "How can we improve this and what if we did this?

[00:13:18] And, hey, wouldn't it be cool if we included this and, we should blast out this, to the," okay? That's just me though. I've got to be very cognizant of how much time and attention I'm demanding from these folks that are helping us out in this journey, and treating that as the most valuable resource in our early business, which it is at this point, and making sure that we engage that community effectively,

[00:13:39] and, and in a way that, like I said, it takes most advantage of their time and their capabilities, but it's also been wonderful to see, we'll throw a, an update to the app out and it will be, "We changed some language here or there, and we improved a photo", or something, something minor. And to get like five emails back from folks that are like, "Hey, I saw what you did on screen for that's [00:14:00] really cool.

[00:14:00] I love what your changes are. Hey, have you thought about doing this now?" And that's the sort of thing that it's an entrepreneurial live-for, to get that sort of engagement and excitement from a user base; is something that I think that's really special and makes me excited about the future for Arbor and very optimistic about our pathway and our trajectory.

[00:14:16] Richard Simms: [00:14:16] That's awesome. Yeah. And it's great that it sounds like you've got some really engaged early adopters and of course, for, for folks listening, I think with any startup, it's, you can never focus too much on the envisioned customer or user, right? They're going to tell you infinitely more, when kind of rubber meets the road, as far as getting in there and using an application, they're going to give you way more insights than you can, and just strategizing and thinking on hypotheticals, because people ultimately behave very different than what they might tell you

[00:14:48] they want. So, obviously, I think you all have done the right thing and getting it out there. And I am lucky enough to have it on my phone from the TestFlight invite and it's super cool. It's [00:15:00] looking great. Like, I'm very excited for the broader launch and yeah, I think that progression makes a lot of sense and just getting people on it sooner rather than later.

[00:15:08] Ed Thomas: [00:15:08] It's also a fine line to walk too, though. So, I've seen other startups stumble and being too responsive. And so there, there is a fine line that you have to walk, I think, between understanding what your consumers need and getting into their headspace and what they're looking for and what the world respond to, versus taking the feedback at face value. And I think that's part of the magic of entrepreneurship is, getting, understanding your users well enough that you can go, ''Okay I, I'll ask you the question on what you think of this or that, but I know already what you're going to say, 'cause I know you well enough at this point from all of our interactions and everything I've seen," and, right?

[00:15:49] That, I know what you're going to want. So, to digress, like there's always this story about Steve Jobs never did any user testing at Apple and just invented the iPhone, which is [00:16:00] total bull hockey, right? Apple's one of the most aggressive user-testing environments in the world today.

[00:16:06] They just do it differently. And they take it from a perspective of, "I need to understand everything about you and how you react and what your problems are and issues are. And I don't really care if when I put something in front of you, you see you like it or not, per se, 'cause I, 'cause that's my job is figuring out that solution, that product, but I need to understand how it fits well within your experience and where you are as a person."

[00:16:30] And so, I think there's a real magic wine in identifying how that, and how to take feedback, because if, if everyone just listened exactly to what users want, I, w, we would probably be on Yahoo email still, which, embarrassingly, I still use, but, 

[00:16:45] Richard Simms: [00:16:45] It wasn't, it, a Henry Ford, that was like, "If I built what people ask for, I would have just made a faster horse."

[00:16:52] Ed Thomas: [00:16:52] Right. Yeah, that's what, yeah, that's the story. The critical thing is that he realized, "Oh, people just want to move faster. They say they want a horse. [00:17:00] What would they really want to do is get to the next town over in less than a day."

[00:17:04] Richard Simms: [00:17:04] Right, I,

[00:17:04] Ed Thomas: [00:17:04] Okay. What are the ways that we can solve that? And that's the, that's that understanding your user mindset?

[00:17:09] I think.

[00:17:09] Richard Simms: [00:17:09] Yeah, I think it's a really interesting point. There's definitely a fine line there between understanding them, their motivations, the fundamental kind of pain points you're trying to address versus trying to give someone what they say they want. And certainly, what we see folks do sometimes too, especially with an early product, is, you really want to constrain the scope

[00:17:34] and not allow yourself to get pulled in a bunch of different directions. Also, I know when you're testing with folks, although they have the best intentions, sometimes they're like, "It'd be really cool, too, if it integrated with LinkedIn here or there, was, I could pick a picture with the app too," to, and sometimes you got to

[00:17:49] put the guard rails back on and say, "Maybe in the future, I can't be pulled in 10 different directions." That's not the core value we're trying to bring." You're right.

[00:17:58] Ed Thomas: [00:17:58] Or, taking that for what [00:18:00] actually is going on. "Hey, you say that you want to be able to take a picture with the app." Okay, and there's a, a famous process that Toyota goes through on this of, I think it's the five whys, or you keep asking why until you get down to a root motivation for something. "You want to take a photo, why is that?"

[00:18:14] "I want to show it to my friends." "Why do you want to show it to your friends?" Because I want them to know that I'm actively offsetting and doing all this great stuff for the environment." "Why do you want to do that?" "Because it's important for me to be seen among my friends as being someone who's

[00:18:25] green and environmental.""Oh. Why is that important?" "Because that's my self perception of myself." "Oh, okay." So, if I get after that court issue, that's the key, whether it takes photos or not, doesn't really matter, that was just as the user you jumped from where I was as a starting point to head, to be able to take a photo, but you know what, hey, maybe there's a better way of achieving that core self-reflection, self-analysis that we can do and provide to you, that doesn't have anything to do with the photos.

[00:18:53] That's not really what you're asking for. What you're asking for is five levels down and, and again, it's that kind of [00:19:00] understanding of where your users are really coming from and what they're talking about. For us, it's, people feel a lack of personal efficacy, obviously on climate change, you don't feel like you can do anything, right?

[00:19:13] So, you feel impotent within the face of all this. You feel guilty that you're not doing enough, right? One of our huge focus is, how do we make you feel good? How do we make you not, this isn't a guilt purchase. This isn't, "I'm buying carbon credits, so I can go and pollute more." It's, "Hey, this is me being a positive member of society.

[00:19:33] It's an expression of my responsibility and my sense of communal wellbeing and a part of this community." And, it's a statement of optimism around what the future can be, but how do we tap into that? Because that's really what the core of the process is for us. But, getting to that understanding takes, takes a lot, takes a long time.

[00:19:52] Richard Simms: [00:19:52] Yeah, absolutely. And I think, one thing that's very cool about your journey with Arbor is, you have a [00:20:00] really rich background in tech and innovation. So, I think it's, of course, so obvious from this conversation, not that I would have thought otherwise, all the right

[00:20:09] questions ask and how to be just very methodical about what you're building and just using, having the right paradigm through that process. One, one question I had for you is more on the technology side, even though again, I know you've been in this space for a long time, but designing and developing a mobile app from scratch,

[00:20:29] always a big undertaking, even in our line of work, we'll be the first to volunteer that this is not a, yeah, "We'll build it out in a few weeks and it's going to look great and function perfectly." There's a lot that goes on there. So, with Arbor specifically, just from a technology perspective, what's been the biggest challenge for you all getting things implemented and up and running and that whole process?

[00:20:50] Ed Thomas: [00:20:50] Yeah, that's a great question. The flip answer is just developing hours, right? 'Cause, with enough time and attention and enough number of teams, you can build anything. And you could [00:21:00] build the Taj Mahal in two weeks if you had 10 million people to do it. For us, we made the decision to go on-to a, a cross-platform framework from day one.

[00:21:09] So, we're built on Flutter, which then can be published onto both iOS and Android. It's the next great fruition of React Native, right, or PhoneGap, if people are old enough to remember PhoneGap, and Xamarin and some of the other cross-platforms from the early days. That's been huge for us and that's really expedited our ability to develop and deliver products and to iterate rapidly.

[00:21:30] And particularly right now, we're in a rapid iteration and ideation phase of the business. And so, being able to write once and published twice is a, a huge benefit. The thing that's really interesting about our business, and I guess digital technology more broadly right now, Richard, is that it's,

[00:21:46] it all exists. Like, there were, I have some friends that actually run startups that are, like, actually doing like science, and trying to like, their success is going to be contingent on their ability to achieve X in the lab. We don't have that constraint. [00:22:00] We just, we have a product that can be built using off-the-shelf componentry right now.

[00:22:04] It's really a matter for us of, yeah, "How do I really intelligently scope it?" And you hit the, you hit the nail on the head earlier, cause it's an issue of how do I scope it in such a way that it's, it is the nascent kernel of that lovable product that I'm trying to get to? Because, you can have gargantuan scope, that's just a big hot mess. And there's nothing clearly exciting in all of this. It's just this unfocused mish-mash, you can also scope it so tightly that it's not lovable anymore. Like, you can see a core functionality to it, but all you did is prove that you can hook up a core functionality.

[00:22:43] And if I'm being honest, that's where Arbor started. When we launched it back in November into our, our closed beta group, it was just a platform that you can buy carbon offsets from. No, not a whole lot is lovable about that. And we've refined that and refined that.

[00:22:57] Now we're taking that next step internally of [00:23:00] saying, "Okay let's add some of the lovability component to it to really make it something that users resonate with." Now, I know what lovability looks like if it's this big, if it's a sizable product, but what's that, one or two things are the core component that we could really launch both as a test to see if people actually respond to it

[00:23:19] like we think they will, but then, also, as that foundational piece that we can build everything else on?

[00:23:25] Richard Simms: [00:23:25] Sure. Yeah, it definitely is a very tough balance. And we work with a lot of folks on MVPs, and typically, and for listeners minimum viable product, we are typically the ones really pulling back the scope, and I will always be the first to admit that I am equally guilty of it. If it's my idea, I have a huge vision for it,

[00:23:45] I want to push forward, knowing it's going to be great, build the full vision. But again, a lot of times we'll try to bring people back for a lot of good reasons. But yes, it's very hard to know what is that line where you don't want [00:24:00] the feedback you're getting, or the validation you're seeking to be compromised, because there's just not quite enough, either polish there or periphery like user experience outside of that one core value proposition.

[00:24:14] And I think for Arbor, if this is fair to say, in my experience just exploring the app so far, just really having a narrative behind those projects is a huge part of it because they're super interesting, they're very compelling, there's some nice pictures, like, that alone is such a big difference than just going in and saying, "Yeah, I'm going to buy some carbon credits,

[00:24:36] 'cause I know that's something I should be doing." 

[00:24:38] Ed Thomas: [00:24:38] Correct? Yeah. Yeah. And it's, we've, we've also tried to be very intentional about how we build a platform. That's flexible enough that we can test other things into it, realizing that we're probably gonna misfire on the first couple of shots that we take. And, if you're playing around with our app, now we had, we initially launched with a couple of projects [00:25:00] with a partner, but there are three specific projects,

[00:25:02] and there's a rationale as to why we pick those and everything. And then, as we saw people responding and reacting to those, we said, "What would the different, what would more of like an impact focus project be?", right? Like, the three that we picked just for our users are just these giant projects overseas of millions of acres that are being protected and replanted,

[00:25:21] and they're spinning up hundreds of millions of tons of carbon savings. Like, they're giant projects, which are super exciting. But, they also fall into the trap of saying "My, my 10 bucks to that is, is not even, new deck chairs of the Lusitania." Like, it's a drop in, it's a drop in a very large bucket.

[00:25:40] So we said, "What would it look like if we just, we worked with our partner to sponsor, like, just a specific little growth? We're going to go protect these  100 trees and try to plant another 50. What would that look like? And how would people respond to that sort of project?"

[00:25:54] Okay, we, and we learned that. We said, "What would happen if we, instead of looking at a project, we sponsored an [00:26:00] impact, for a group or for an individual?" So, we found a class and we said, "Hey, what if we sponsored your classroom and made your classroom totally carbon-neutral for the year?"

[00:26:08] You're all on Zoom. You're using electricity all day and dah. "What would it look like if we just offset that and what our users respond to that and want to fund that instead of funding all these other projects. And, but, at the core, we built a structure that we could play around with and experiment with these, some of these ideas with, and I think that was the key,

[00:26:27] that was the key thing that we really got. I wish that we had an even more flexible framework, so we could experiment in a lot of different ways, even other ideas and stuff, but for where we are, we're in a good spot for where we, where we needed to get to.

[00:26:38] Richard Simms: [00:26:38] Yeah, it definitely seems like it. And, obviously just restraints, resource restraints or constraints, I should say, are a part of every startups struggle. I think some constraints are healthy in terms of making folks focus and find ways to be scrappy. For you all, like, what's been the push and pull [00:27:00] between budget, time, like, searching out the appropriate skillsets, how, what's been, you all's perspective generally on what you should be focused on, investing in, where you should be super scrappy, versus really

[00:27:13] make the investment now? Just curious what you all's philosophy on that has been?

[00:27:18] Ed Thomas: [00:27:18] Yeah, that's a great question. So, we intentionally have been in extraordinarily tight budget. We're a team of eight, I think at this point, if I'm calculating correctly; myself and my co-founder full-time, we've got a couple of folks that are on part-time and kind of a volunteer position;

[00:27:35] and then we've got a number of unpaid interns, and we can get away with the unpaid internship a little bit, 'cause we, we know how to run teams of young developers and things like that, my partner and I, so we're in a position where you can say, "Yeah, you don't really know the ins and outs of Flutter, but you're a third or fourth year at Georgia Tech and you're super smart and you want to learn and you're willing to try it,

[00:27:56] and you just want to work hard. Come on board," right? [00:28:00] "We'll teach you everything you need to know. We'll set you up with what you need to be able to succeed. We'll give you a little piece to start with and, and grow you over time, but we'll invest in you in terms of time and energy and effort, in return for your active engagement and help in pushing this forward." And, we've been fortunate in that. We're a product with a social mission, obviously, that really resonates with a lot of folks. And so, we've been able to find some really top flight talent who wanted to come in and make an investment in us, right, in return for having an impact and, obviously when we raise funding we'll hire all those folks on board full-time and stuff.

[00:28:33] So, it's a great kind of way to get in the door early, but I think more, more broadly, yeah, it's a great opportunity for them to learn and experience, and build a resume and a portfolio and have an impact at the same time. So, we've been really focused on investing in terms of time and effort and our own

[00:28:49] personal resources versus going out and raising money initially and then putting that budget to something. And, I think, the point that you hit upon, Richard, is actually the critical one, which is, that [00:29:00] forces you to be really smart on what you do. So I, full disclosure, I went to Stanford for Business School and the Silicon Valley mindset, then and now is still very much,

[00:29:11] yeah, an idea that sounds great. You go shop it. You've raised $2 million, then you're in business and you hire 15 people and then you blow it up and, and like you dumped gas on the fire as quickly and as early as you can, right? With some variation, but that's the model. And, I have friends who have early stage startups that are, top-dollar real estate smack-in-the-middle of Palo Alto, like, just across the street from Stanford.

[00:29:38] And I look, and I'm like, "God only knows what you're paying for office space. In an environment now where we're, we can't go to the office anyway." And I, look, I go, "Geez, if I had a fifth of what you've spent last month on your real estate alone, gosh, I could go hire 15 developers and go build something amazing." But in a way, not having that [00:30:00] temptation makes you more resourceful and makes you really focus a lot more on like, "All right. If there's 50 things I can do, what's the 2 things today that are going to make this more successful? 'Cause all I can do is do those two things. I can't worry about the next 48."

[00:30:14] Richard Simms: [00:30:14] Yeah, I totally agree. And I think some of that perspective on raising capital, there's, I think some of that is like West Coast mentality versus East Coast, particularly Southeast. But I definitely agree with you. I would say generally our opinion is, the longer you can bootstrap, the better if you're progressing, and that ultimately, if you are raising capital, it should be to throw fuel on a fire that is already burning.

[00:30:47] Ed Thomas: [00:30:47] Yes.

[00:30:48] Richard Simms: [00:30:48] You should already have that spark like that initial flame, and you have a clear validation product market fit, what you need to do to scale quickly, hire more people, grab [00:31:00] a bigger market share. And I think that, of course, the earlier you raise funds, too, that changes your situation, the degree of control, the pressure that's on you, it's very glamorized, but it is certainly not "no strings attached.".

[00:31:14] I'm with you. I think the constraints are very healthy and a exciting part of the startup journey. 

[00:31:20] Ed Thomas: [00:31:20] Hundred percent. Well, and it was, there's also a philosophical decision in the background, right? Like, my partner and I didn't feel comfortable going out and raising money from third-party investors until we actually knew we had something. Now, as soon as we know we've got something, game on, right?

[00:31:37] Like, we will raise money, we'll blow it up because we need to hit a significant scale to have a significant impact on the climate crisis. That's the model of bosses, it's volume of people and users, and to get that we need capital. So, there's certainly a point at which we're going to raise money to be able to ramp that growth up.

[00:31:53] But we wanted to be able to walk into a room and say "No, this is working", right? We're doing this. It works [00:32:00] because of these reasons." Every person we get in, "Here's the retention percentage. Here's the engagement." We know we make X dollars from them on average. "Here's what it looks like." And we actually have a, we have a crank we can turn.

[00:32:11] And now, let's talk about working together to turn that crank faster. And that's just a different, it's a, say, was more of a philosophical decision for us. I didn't feel comfortable working with other people's money until we got to the point of knowing that we actually had de-risked it a little bit,

[00:32:24] and then, it wasn't just a total flier from their standpoint.

[00:32:28] Richard Simms: [00:32:28] Yeah, definitely. And certainly, at that point, you come into those conversations just naturally on much better footing, if you already have a model in place and kind of some proof behind what you're doing. So I think that's great. So, for Arbor I saw you all post something that I think already like 25,000 pounds of carbon emissions have been removed from the Arbor community, which is amazing.

[00:32:52] So, that's a big win. Are there any other kind of big wins so far with Arbor that you're really proud [00:33:00] of, or you're on the cusp of reaching particular goals with the product that you want to share?

[00:33:05] Ed Thomas: [00:33:05] Yeah. Yeah. So that's by far the most exciting one. So, for context we have a waitlist of a couple hundred folks who have signed up, who are excited and want to try the app, or this broader community of folks that we've been building with and testing with over the last few months. Of that, we've actually only pushed the app out to a few dozen, right?

[00:33:23] The idea of being, well, "I would like to fail with a smaller group than failing with a larger group", so we, we, s, we intentionally said we're going to limit the number of people using this as we really refine it, and file down all the rough edges and what not. But yeah, out of the few dozen that we've pushed the app out to have had a chance to play with it.

[00:33:40] So, see yourself, Richard, we're, we have double-digit rates of folks who purchase through us, which is great, 'cause that was, one of the first questions we had was just, "Hey, if we put this out there and people buy, if I give you the ability to offset and eliminates the impact of a tank of gas, are you actually going to do it?"

[00:33:57] It cost you three or four bucks, like that's real money. Are you going to [00:34:00] spend a couple of bucks to reduce and eliminate the impact of that tank of gas that you purchased or the electrical bill that you had last month or what not? So it's exciting to see that people actually are purchasing.

[00:34:10] What's more encouraging is that we have repeat purchases. And it's still a double-digit percentages of folks who are making repeat purchases every month. Mo, and these aren't just my friends. I should also preface. I've talked to them now, because I'm always like "What in the hell are you doing?

[00:34:25] This is a klugey app, still. What is it that's making you excited and why are you doing this?" At one point, hopefully I'll get a chance to meet some of them in person, because a couple of them are in the Atlanta area, but, but yeah the early results are exciting and even with that super small base yeah,

[00:34:38] we've eliminated 25,000 pounds of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. That's huge, right? For a super small company. And we look and we go, "Gosh, think of what happens if we hit a billion people, right?" Okay. Now, we actually, with a straight face, can start talking about mega tons of impact on the climate and that's

[00:34:55] really impactful. So, that's, the far and away is the most exciting thing. Other developments, we [00:35:00] are, two of the things, so we're close to a public launch in the summer, as I mentioned, and there's a lot of internal work that's happening around that final definition of what we're going to go to market with.

[00:35:09] We're super close to an exciting concept. And so, I'm really excited to get that a little bit further along and start testing that with our, with our beta community. And then, we also got admitted to a local environmental and sustainable-focused, accelerated program here in Atlanta "The Greenhouse", which is how you and I got connected

[00:35:27] initially. 

[00:35:27] Richard Simms: [00:35:27] Yeah. Yeah, it's very cool. And I think it's a great organization. And, I actually, the last episode we did, I interviewed Matt Cox of Greenlink Analytics, which is how I got introduced to that group. So yeah, it's, it's come full circle.

[00:35:42] Ed Thomas: [00:35:42] Yep. It's a small community in Atlanta, so everything always comes back around eventually. But yeah, we're super excited to dig in a chance to work with their team, and then again really help bring in a different set of voices and a broader community as we continue to grow, the, grow the community around our product,

[00:35:56] and, like I say, grow the impact that we're able to have.

[00:36:00] [00:36:00] Richard Simms: [00:36:00] Very cool. What advice would you give to someone in the early stages of pursuing a new digital product? Again, I know you've done this a number of times, every situation is different, but what do you think is the most, like, universal advice that rings true in your experience?

[00:36:16] Ed Thomas: [00:36:16] Oh, that's a great question. So there's so much, right? And I feel, like, probably more so than never there's so many little anecdotes and little bits of nuggets of information and what not, that, that, you hear and pick up, from just different sources and podcasts like this and blogs and what not.

[00:36:36] One of the best piece of advice that I ever got, which certainly holds true in the entrepreneurial and startup context, but also just as important in general is, "Don't confuse activity with progress."

[00:36:52] Richard Simms: [00:36:52] Yeah.

[00:36:53] Ed Thomas: [00:36:53] It's really easy to be super active, and responding to emails and posting stuff on LinkedIn and [00:37:00] responding to messages on Twitter.

[00:37:02] And, it's really easy to fill your day and then actually not get anything accomplished. And so, I've tried to be with greater or lesser success, a lot more focused in how I'm spending my time in my activity, and being very thoughtful about starting the morning and saying, "Okay, it's Tuesday and it's, it's a beautiful Tuesday in April and it's gonna be the only Tuesday in April today that I'm going to have, right?

[00:37:26] This is one of my, like, few thousand days on this planet. What am I going to get done today?" And I can pick one or maybe two things and say, "I'm going to get those done today." And then, structure everything I'm doing that day around accomplishing that. And then, oftentimes I should perhaps be saying some of it, like, "Hey, I'm going to go to this.

[00:37:44] I'm going to go to the soccer game this evening with my kid."

[00:37:46] Richard Simms: [00:37:46] Yeah.

[00:37:47] Ed Thomas: [00:37:47] Like, it doesn't have to be business-focused, I guess is what I'm saying, but, like, knowing what you're going to do and how you're going to have an impact during your existence on that day, I think it's really critical. And then, from that, you can start to think more [00:38:00] structurally about "Here's the goals and the milestones I'm going to set", and in the startup context, knowing, "Okay.

[00:38:04] If I want to launch, it's going to have to look like, it's going to have to look like X, what do I need to get it to look like X? I'm going to need these 15 things. Okay. I can't do all 15. Maybe they could do five. What are those five going to be?" And setting yourself up milestones and goals,

[00:38:18] ones that you can work against and work toward helps a ton, 'cause otherwise it's really easy to have weeks and months go by and then go, "Wait, I'll, all I did was these three things and I had these grand desperations for what I was going to do the first quarter." Time flies if you're not careful.

[00:38:32] Richard Simms: [00:38:32] Yeah.

[00:38:33] Ed Thomas: [00:38:33] Other, let's just go say the other piece of advice I got, which I screwed up on with earlier startups, was, engage in community as quickly as you can, right? It's really easy to just put your head down and go lone wolf and do try to do everything yourself. Even if you can do everything yourself and none of us actually can, even that we might think we can, even if you can, you've only got 24 hours in the day, so you're not going to get everything done, that you need to, you know?

[00:38:59] There are [00:39:00] folks out there that are also excited about what you're working on, who want to get involved,  pull those people in. And, I mentioned it earlier with Arbor, we've got a decent-sized team for not having any budget to speak of right now. It was critical that we pull those people in, and someone gives me a couple of hours a week;

[00:39:15] hey, that's a couple of hours that add on to what we can accomplish. So, that's fantastic. And, re, we've really tried to, my co-founder and I, just be very intentional about trying to engage people and get feedback, and get advice, and talk with people about what you're working on, and get their opinions and thoughts and stuff.

[00:39:31] Get their help if they can. But try to engage as broadercommunity as you can.

[00:39:36] Richard Simms: [00:39:36] Yeah, I think those are both very good tips. I would say in my experience, particularly here in Atlanta, it's amazing how many people are willing to help in some capacity or meet with you. People are very supportive and I'm with you. I think you should not be shy about engaging people and building those relationships.

[00:39:55] Yeah, I love it. Those are great pieces of advice. So, thinking a little bigger [00:40:00] picture, as far as the fight against climate change, which of course is evolving lots of, I think, hopefully, good momentum building behind, like a universal acknowledgement of the problem and the fact that action needs to be taken,

[00:40:15] how do you see specifically technology, like, its role in that fight, kind of role playing out in the future here?

[00:40:23] Ed Thomas: [00:40:23] Oh, that's a great question. So, the great headline is that we don't need a technology breakthrough. Period, right? Like, our solar panels are going to get more efficient. Yes. Our wind farms going to get more efficient. And is that technology going to continue to improve and get cheaper? You bet it is. Is solar power already

[00:40:43] correct-price competitive operationally versus operating a legacy?

[00:40:51] Richard Simms: [00:40:51] Okay. So taking a step back, thinking a little bit bigger picture in just more broadly, the fight against climate [00:41:00] change, which I think there's a lot more kind of universal acknowledgement building and more momentum behind the fact that broad action needs to be taken, which is great. On the technology front, like, what role do you see technology playing in that battle, in the future?

[00:41:16] Ed Thomas: [00:41:16] Yeah, that's a fantastic question. so I think the exciting thing about where we are right now in the climate change debate and the mitigation of it is that we don't really need a new technology breakthrough to save us, right? All the technologies that currently exist are going to continue to get better.

[00:41:32] Solar is going to get even more cost-efficient and even more effective than a wind. Our battery technologies are gonna continue to improve, but even as things currently stand, we've got the technologies we need, both to take that first step of decarbonizing the economy and moving off of legacy fossil fuels onto more renewable sources, and ceasing putting out carbon dioxide into the atmosphere.

[00:41:57] But then, on our end, where we're talking about [00:42:00] actual removal of carbon from the atmosphere, we've also got most of the technologies we need, and that's not to say that there's not exciting new ones on the horizon that are going to continue to come out and get more efficient and get better.

[00:42:10] But, we've got what we need to solve the problem right now. It's really more of an issue of, "How do you mobilize, right? How do you get people on board? How do you bring people into the community and get people actively engaged in taking action to fix some of these problems?" And that's, again, that's what our focus is, we want to make it really easy for you.

[00:42:30] If you're concerned consumer,  come in, use our app and fund the removal of carpet from other sources on the planet, to fund that reforestation project that wouldn't have happened without your support, or to fund that new Direct Air Capture technology that's just coming out of the lab

[00:42:46] that's starting to have a real impact and show real promise. And so that's, kinda the point that we're at right now is, it's really more of a coordination issue. And how do you mobilize, how do you get all these technologies out there and more broadly adopted? Because they fundamentally exist.

[00:42:59] It's [00:43:00] just a matter of getting them implemented.

[00:43:02] Richard Simms: [00:43:02] Yeah, I think that's a really good point, and I definitely subscribe to the belief that technology is a tool. And exactly, I, some of the best products that have a big impact, they're not completely revolutionary technology. They're just combining these things and engaging different groups in a way that addresses some problems. I'm with you.

[00:43:24] Not everything has to be solved by AI or Blockchain to be really valuable. So, of course. Okay, so looks like we are about out of time. Thank you so much, Ed, for doing this. I really enjoyed the conversation. 

[00:43:39] Ed Thomas: [00:43:39] Thank you for the opportunity. This has been a lot of fun.

[00:43:41] Richard Simms: [00:43:41] Yeah, this has been great. So, before we sign off, where can listeners go to connect with you and to learn more about Arbor?

[00:43:49] Ed Thomas: [00:43:49] Fantastic. Yeah. So you can visit us at our website, which is, getarborapp.com, or if you want to specifically sign up to be one of our beta testers, try our [00:44:00] product before we go into the public market later this year, you can visit us at signup.getarborapp.com, and sign up and be one of them early adopters and help join, join us in this, both in this crusade and also be one of these early people who are giving us feedback and helping us build out a successful product.

[00:44:17] And obviously, we would really love to get your support and help in doing so. So, we'd love to have anyone  who's interested in what we're talking about, active in our community. And also, obviously, we're on every social media channel known to man. We publish a ton on LinkedIn. You can find us at 412 Technology on LinkedIn.

[00:44:33] We're also active on Twitter, obviously, as well as Instagram, "Arbor Mobile" on both platforms, and, and yeah, just reach out. We'd love to engage with you and get your thoughts and feedback and get you part of the community.

[00:44:47] Richard Simms: [00:44:47] Awesome. Thanks again, Ed. It's been great having you on the Digital Footprint.

[00:44:51] Ed Thomas: [00:44:51] Richard, thank you so much for the opportunity, I really appreciate it. It was great talking to you this afternoon.

[00:44:56] Richard Simms: [00:44:56] You too. Thanks again.