Mixing Music and Math with Marcus Blackwell of Make Music Count

Let's face it. Many of us grew up with the perspective that math was intimidating, hard, or "just not our thing." For those of us that felt this way early in childhood, those feelings were hard to shake. Math wasn't very approachable and it certainly wasn't "fun."

In this episode of The Digital Footprint, we speak with Marcus Blackwell, Founder and CEO of Make Music Count. Marcus and his team are on a mission to make math fun and approachable by mixing pop and hip hop music into engaging math lessons. By injecting this innovative approach into more traditional math curriculum, Make Music Count looks to help all students reach their full potential. With Make Music Count, for many students, math can go from a dreaded obligation to a fun and interactive learning experience.

We speak with Marcus about the challenges of innovating in education, his growing partnerships in the music industry, and the ongoing challenges students face in the classroom.

Guest-at-a-Glance

💡 Name: Marcus Blackwell

💡 What he does: He's the Founder & CEO of Make Music Count.

💡 Company: Make Music Count

💡 Noteworthy: Marcus is passionate about helping students overcome their biggest obstacles, one of them being math. He wants to eliminate math phobia and help kids find their true potential.

💡 Where to find Marcus: LinkedIn

Want to bring a SaaS product to market, quickly?
Book a consultation: https://tyrannosaurustech.com/contact/

Connect with our cohosts Richard Simms & Carlos Gonzalez on Linkedin

Transcript

E661389B_15 - TT - Digital Footprint - Marcus Blackwell

[00:00:00] Marcus Blackwell: You know, we've got a different type of child in the classroom now. That, you know, kind of challenges the teacher like, "Hey, convince me to be here, you know? 'Cause I've got a super computer in my pocket where I can find all this stuff you're talking about, but you know, help me find my passions so that I can be my best self." 

[00:00:52] Richard Simms: Hello, welcome to the Digital Footprint. I'm Richard Simms. This podcast is brought to you by Tyrannosaurus Tech, an award-winning technology partner, dedicated to designing and developing high impact software products. Today I am joined by Marcus Blackwell, CEO and Founder of Make Music Count. Excited to have you on the show, Marcus.

[00:01:14] Marcus Blackwell: Thanks so much, Richard. I appreciate the offer to come and join today. 

[00:01:19] Richard Simms: Yeah, it's good to see you. We, gosh, initially met several years ago. It's been a while. We've, we've kind of, you know, we've kept in touch on and off. I mean, it seems like a lifetime ago at this point, given how crazy the last few years have been, but I'm glad we've kept in touch. I've always thought that, you know, the work you were doing with Make Music Count was really cool.

[00:01:39] Like, I, I love music. I certainly don't think I was a natural at math in school, so it resonates with me. And it's very much in line with what we're interested in, in this show as far as innovation and, you know, education and, um, so yeah, I'm really looking forward to the conversation. And just to, to get started for listeners who aren't familiar,

[00:02:02] do you mind just briefly introduce yourself, tell us a little bit more about Make Music Count? That would be a great start.

[00:02:09] Marcus Blackwell: Sure. Sure. So, I'm Marcus Blackwell and I founded Make Music Count. Make Music Count is a math curriculum and an app that's taught by learning how to play your favorite song on the piano. So we created this just creative way that gets students to positively engage in math and practice their math and the catches.

[00:02:32] When you do your math correctly, you will learn how to play the piano, even if you've never played before. So you're kind of getting like a, a two for one, if you will with, within our app. We have some other aspects to Make Music Count that I'm going to share, but at our core, that's what we're all about.

[00:02:48] You know, making math fun, engaging in a culturally responsive way so that everyone feels connected to math lessons and the, the vehicle that does that is music. 

[00:03:01] Richard Simms: I love it. Awesome. Yeah. I mean, I know that for a lot of kids, math can seem very daunting and like a very dry subject. So I think a lot of kids kind of default to that, "I'm just not good at math," mindset. Right? 

[00:03:16] Adults, too. 

[00:03:17] Richard Simms: Yeah. Adults too, yes. A hundred percent. And I may, I may be guilty at times too. So for you, you know, I know you were a math major in college. You know, like tell us more just about kind of your journey, like growing up and going into, you know, education and whatnot.

[00:03:35] When did you discover that you really had a passion and kind of an aptitude for math?

[00:03:42] Marcus Blackwell: Well, that's, what's interesting is that I didn't, I wasn't good at math at first, you know? That's kind of where my company came from is the fact that, I had this, I would say taught intimidation and taught fear of math. And, you know, as a kid that's in elementary school or middle school, when an adult says something like, "Well, you know, math is hard,"

[00:04:04] sometimes you just believe them. And you know, you kind of like bring that onto yourself. For me, everything really started with the fact that I'm a pianist. You know, I've played the piano since I was five, classical, like I used to do recital competitions, played jazz, gospel. I've played professionally since I was 16.

[00:04:25] So music was always my foundation. And then, you know, I just got tired of this issue with math and I was like, "You know, I just don't understand why, well, first of all, wasn't getting the extra help that I was asking for." So that was kind of what pushed, "Okay. We've got to find a solution here." It was like, I was asking for help and I just didn't have the teachers that really kind of cared enough to give me the help I asked for.

[00:04:51] So it just kind of, you know, it's going to sound cliche, but it was like this light bulb moment, you know, where a friend of mine asked me to teach them how to play something on the piano. And I was like, "You don't know music barriers, so I can't talk to you in those terms, but if you use this counting method, this will teach you how to play what you're asking." And all along,

[00:05:15] I've understood music with a math perspective, and it just kind of took me having to teach somebody else something musical to realize that I actually think I am good at math. And so, it kind of provided this new-found confidence. And so, you know, going to Morehouse, I was really fortunate to be surrounded by some amazing professors and friends that just allowed me to investigate how does math and music kind of connect.

[00:05:45] And that's how the math major kind of came along, was like, "Okay. Well, I'm willing to do this, but I have to prove that I've conquered math intimidation myself first, before I start trying to talk about this." So that's, that's where the math major came from. And, like I said, had some phenomenal professors, did my senior thesis on how math and music kind of connected.

[00:06:09] And that's what just kind of planted that seed for me is that, you know, this is something that's cool to investigate. You know, that's really where it started. I didn't, you know, go after this as like, "Oh, this is the biggest opportunity." No, it was just I was tired of having issues with math and realize that piano and music helped math feel better.

[00:06:32] So, that's how it worked for me. And then naturally, because I learned a lot about community service in college. I just said, "Look, I wonder if some other kids would like this too." So, you know, the, the part that connected all the dots to using the proper the music was that I said, "Okay." A friend of mine said, "Hey, if you've got something that makes kids better at math, we'll try it out.

[00:06:55] But if you're going to have middle school students do more math after a full day of school already, it's an uphill battle." Right? So I said, "Okay. I've got to make this fun and engaging somehow." So, I said, "Look, I'll bring a song that they all know." You know, and we're here in Atlanta. So, I broughta popular 2 Chainz song for them to play at the time.

[00:07:22] And it was an automatic hit. You know, none of them had played the piano before, so they loved the fact that they learned the piano on the spot. And then all of a sudden math was no longer an issue. And I was like, "Hmm, that was interesting". You know? And so every, I would go to this school once a week, and so every week I would just bring a new song and bring a new song and try some different math.

[00:07:45] So, you know, the 2 Chainz song was focusing on fractions, but it's middle middle-schoolers. I said, "Hey, you know, we should probably ramp up the math a little bit." So I tried algebra and it, it worked, it worked. You know, it was engaging, it was fun. And so I, uh, did this kind of community service, if you will, for about six months before another school called and said, "We heard about what you're doing and we've got some high school students that don't know how to do some of the math that you're doing with those middle school students.

[00:08:14] Can you come and help us here?" And, you know, it's, it's funny how, you know, an opportunity presents itself. You have to be ready for it, even if you're not. Right? So when they first contacted me, I thought they wanted me to do more community service. They're like, "Yeah. You know, our summer program meets Monday through Thursday from 9 to 12.

[00:08:34] Can you do it?" And I said, "No, I have a job." And like, "I would have got fired if I just, you know, leave, you know, like that." You know, "They're already allowing me to leave once a week." And that, they were like, "No, we'll pay you to do it." And I was like, "Wait." I said, "Just so that we're clear, you know, I made this up.

[00:08:52] Right?" I said, "This is what I made up at home. So, you know, just making sure that you guys understand." They're like, "Yeah. No, it's fine." It's an enrichment that I learned that you could work with school districts. And so, I was, I was an engineer at GE at the time, and that's when I took the leap of faith and left Corporate America and started Make Music Count.

[00:09:12] That was back in 2013, and, uh, that's how we got started. 

[00:09:17] Richard Simms: That's awesome. Yeah. I didn't realize like how far it went back for you as far as, you know, really looking to marry music and math as far back as college. And yeah, that, that was a great origin story. I think that always when a founder is trying to address a problem they have experienced directly.

[00:09:40] I think that really helps. Right? I mean, of course, just familiarity and passion behind what you're doing. So based on kind of what you're describing there, um, like when, when did you see that you ultimately wanted to launch an app? 'Cause I think naturally it sounds like it first started with very hands-on in person.

[00:10:00] Like when did the technology piece come into the picture?

[00:10:04] Uh, well, we hit a ceiling of school partnerships that I couldn't handle. You know, it was like a brick and mortar model, right? Like we were an afterschool program. I would buy piano keyboards, and they would purchase my workbooks. And I would hire college students to go to the schools where I couldn't go.

[00:10:20] Marcus Blackwell: So we got up to about 60 schools and I was like, "I can't," like I was managing all the teachers in GroupMe. You know, like it was, it was really like scrappy type of management. And I was like, "There's gotta be an easier way to not only service the schools that we have, but how do we get to 6,000 schools?"

[00:10:41] And that's where the idea for the app came. And, actually I had a dream about it and it just essentially said, "Okay, you know, we, we have to solve two things. Number one, piano keyboards are expensive, so we have to put the piano in the app." Right? And so, and then I didn't want to be limited to the after-school space anymore.

[00:11:03] I wanted this to be used in math class during the day, in music class during the day. And so that just kind of let me know that making an app was the best way to scale our business. 

[00:11:14] Richard Simms: Very cool. So, um,I want to kind of circle back to that in a minute, but the other question I wanted to ask before, moving on, you know, my familiarity with Make Music Count has always kind been an app. Right? But I understand that you've got workbooks, you've got kind of ongoing paid classes. How did those additional offerings fit in?

[00:11:38] Like, you know, are they things you've added on or, or did the app kind of come after those and how do you balance those things?

[00:11:45] Marcus Blackwell: Yeah. So we, we always started with the workbook. So those six months of community service I did, that's how I made my first workbook, was just a book of lessons. That's how we kind of got started. Like schools would buy that, you know? And so those

[00:12:00] books became the curriculum that is now inside of the app, but we still offer our workbooks because since it's math, you gotta be able to show your work sometimes and, and work out problems.

[00:12:13] So when we work with schools or any, you know, boys and girls clubs or YMCAs, you literally would just purchase an annual app license and purchase a workbook. And then you're free to kind of, you know, the app is made for students to move at their own pace, or you could do it as a class, but, you know, that isn't an issue.

[00:12:35] And then the cool thing is that now that it's an app, you can just use it at home. You know, it's, it's live in Apple Store and the Google Play Store for all devices. So whether you have a phone or an iPad, tablet or, we even worked with, you know, a lot of schools have Chromebooks and Microsoft devices,

[00:12:52] so we have a web version too, so, you know, it works on, on anything. 

[00:12:56] Richard Simms: Awesome. Yeah, that's great. So I think that, you know, innovating in education comes with its own unique challenges. You know, and you mentioned obviously kind of getting more into the school system. You know, I just want to kind of expand on what that's been like for you, you know, what's it been like for lack of a better word selling into that space, you know, where you're trying to get schools, teachers, parents adopting it, making a pretty, you know, substantial change.

[00:13:27] How has that gone? And, uh, what have been some of the biggest challenges on that front?

[00:13:31] There's a number of challenges. So first the educational space in general is more of a word of mouth type of environment. So that's kind of challenging. It's good, but you know, how many teachers does one teacher know? Right? So it's, kind of gets a little challenging. There's a lot of red tape when it comes to working with school districts. You know, we're up against your, your peer sentence and, you know, those large educational distributors.

[00:14:01] And so it's hard to be this, the little guy in that space. And oftentimes, we are critiqued harder than the big guys, you know? It's like monopoly kind of, you know, so it's really been challenging. Often, I would say over the past, you know, nine years it's been about relationships. I think relationships are in any type of business, but it's really about relationships when it comes to the education system.

[00:14:27] Marcus Blackwell: So I've been fortunate to meet superintendents that, you know, really connect with my story, my personal story and, you know, how, you know, this first work with me and that's how I relate with the kids. So I've been able to make sales that way. but it's, it's really challenging. You know, the sales cycle with the school system is, is really not good either.

[00:14:47] You know, you may have to network with the school district for a year before you get an order. And you know, that's why we've made some drastic pivots, moving forward just because you can't scale a business only on relationships. You know, that that's not how that works. So, you know, I'll be happy to talk about that too, but, you know, it's, it's been very challenging to work with with schools and also, you know, on top of the traditional and normal barriers, I'm also introducing a brand new way of learning mathematics.

[00:15:20] So now we have another barrier, right? You know, and there's lots of buzzwords that's been available or, you know, talked about, and you know, STEAM and the arts integration to STEM. But what I've seen is that it's just buzzwords and a lot of people are not actually ready for actual examples of what STEAM means.

[00:15:43] I'm like, "Okay, great. You guys have gotten the STEM certification and you're talking about STEAM, Make Music Count fits." And, you know, it's like, "Ooh, I don't know about that." And I'm like, "Didn't you just talk about the importance of the arts and the math?" So it's like, what are we really talking about here?

[00:15:59] You know? And so, it kind of gets frustrating, you know, to say, you know, "I have what you're asking for, but there's still hesitation. And I know why it is? It's because of the music component." Usually when you think of musical stuff, it's like, that's the fun time. That's the, you know, the dance party.

[00:16:19] Oftentimes, when you think about mathematics, that fun piece is not a part of the math learning experience. And so, you know, math has kind of like protected like. That's part of the, what we're battling here is that the traditional ways of mathematics are cut and dry black yolk. Right? You get it or you don't. If you, if you get math, great.

[00:16:39] If you don't, you, maybe you should try something else. And I'm like, "No, that's not how math should be taught at all." And again, you know, as a math major, I understand that math class needs to teach certain things, but there should be creative ways to support what's taught. That that's what we're doing.

[00:16:56] I'm not presenting something to eliminate the way that math is taught. No. That's needed and necessary, but there should be fun ways to support that. Right? And so, you know, I'll also say that one of the challenges we face is the fact that maintenance account works almost too well. Right? And what I mean by that is that if you're a teacher that is used to your class hating math, you don't get through much lessons each day.

[00:17:25] It's just, it doesn't work. And then here comes Marcus, you know, guy you've never met before and he gets your class to do mathematics that they haven't done all semester. In 30 minutes, you're going to be skeptical. You're going to be skeptical and you might be hating a little bit, you know? So, it's, it's been that too.

[00:17:44] And you know, what I try to tell people is I'm not doing anything different other than meeting the students where they are and that's with their music, you know? And so, you know, it's we use all genres, right? Hip hop, country, pop. We haven't been able to use gospel yet because that's a different thing, but it's important for students to feel a part of the curriculum that they're asked to learn.

[00:18:11] That's all that music is doing. Right? And so, you know, there's certain styles of music that are looked negatively upon and you know, we're turning that on its head. It's like, "Well, this may not be your favorite song as a teacher, but look at the math performance. It's, it's providing you. Look at the scores going up."

[00:18:31] So I think there's a compromise that we should talk about here, you know? Obviously every song in our app is edited and clean and cut down. And so I'm like, "What are we really talking about here?" Right? And so, you know, this is the battle that

[00:18:47] we're after, right? This is what we signed up for, is to challenge

[00:18:52] the way that math is taught and presented to students, right? Like everyone, you know, we oftentimes talk about like equality in the classroom. Equality in the classroom simply means that every student should be able to reach their full educational potential. And the way that we do that is just by using music.

[00:19:10] That's, that's it. That's it. So it becomes challenging when we don't necessarily fit into the box of what is naturally sold to schools. So, yeah.

[00:19:22] It, it there's some challenges, but again, like I knew that's what we signed up for when we started this, you know? And you know, it's worth it because I'm telling you there's nothing better than seeing that light bulb moment,

[00:19:35] and the kid that thought math was over for them. Right? And I mean, I'm talking like high school kids, you know? At high school, you've made up in your mind, "Hey, this isn't my thing. I'm just going to stay over here." But for them to be able to feel that now math is something that they can do is priceless. You know?

[00:19:53] So, yeah. So those, those are the challenges that we face, uh, with Make Music Count. 

[00:19:59] Richard Simms: Yeah, no, I, I definitely, um, empathize. Like in our work, which, you know, we have a much different perspective and exposure, but even just, you know, different school districts and systems that have like very specific, you know, detailed requirements about oftentimes like really strange or dated, or like not relevant

[00:20:22] security protocol and things that just navigating all of that alone and kind of their sales process and decision-making process is very difficult. And then of course, I think what you're saying, like fundamentally getting people to shift their paradigm on how math can be taught is a big one too. But what I like is, you know, I think, it's an over simplification, I'm sure.

[00:20:46] But if a lot of the goal of the app is to just kind of break down that barrier and get kids feeling like math is more approachable, you know, it's like anything that does it, is great. 'Cause I think that opens up the flood gates hopefully. And I, I liken it a little bit to computer science, at least like when I was younger. I think now it's obviously such a hot field and I think there's just more awareness of how valuable that skill set is and how in demand it is.

[00:21:15] But for me, when I was a kid, the very little bit of exposure, I got to computer science. And even in college was just very dry. You know, like it was not at first glance interesting or approachable. You know, it's like, I wish they had just taught me some simple HTML and like I created a website rather than trying to learn some of the initial theory, because really you're just trying to get people to say, "Wow, this is something I actually can do and enjoy."

[00:21:42] So, um,that all, yeah, all resonates with me. One question I have to ask you, even though I think we're all sick of talking about it in a sense with COVID over the last couple years, what's that been like for you and your team? You know, more schools obviously going remote. I could see it both ways. Like it's just a challenging landscape because so much has been turned on its head.

[00:22:04] At the same time, schools are investing more in virtual learning. Has it made it easier for you? Harder? Is it both? Like, what's that been like for you?

[00:22:15] Marcus Blackwell: It's been both. Well first, we almost had to close our doors because you know, for the guy that sells to schools, there was a world where schools closed and there was no, you know, no school, and no one buying because we didn't know what school going to look like. So it was a little scary for a moment.

[00:22:34] But then we, we did a couple of things. We started focusing more on the organic traction in the App Store because even though school close, there was a huge need for parents like, "I need something to educate my kids at home." So, we saw some, some good traction there. And then once the schools started coming back virtually, all of a sudden, everybody wanted fun stuff to get the kids, to just join class on Zoom.

[00:23:04] Marcus Blackwell: And so that's how we started getting our foot back in the door outside, "Well, we're fun. And maybe we'll just, you know, advertise that way, you know?" And then once they saw the math component and, "Oh, this is algebra," and, "Oh, this is graphing," and, "Look at my kids do it," that's when we started seeing almost, almost a validity that we were looking for, you know?

[00:23:27] Um,but there's a couple of things. So that's the school piece, but there was a couple of things that, uh, we were able to realize during the pandemic. One, the pandemic wasn't just challenging for kids. It was challenging for teachers and adults as well. And so one of the things that we created over this past year that we're launching next month is an online, tutoring platform where we'll say if you're a teacher or an adult that wants to make additional revenue tutoring, math, you can do so with Make Music Count.

[00:24:02] And you will just use our curriculum that we have in our app. So we're different from like your Outschool or your Coursera, where on their platform, you have to create your own curriculum. We're saying all you have to do is say, "Hey, I would like to tutor some kids in multiplication. And you know what I want to do it with? Bruno Mars songs."

[00:24:23] "Perfect. That's in our curriculum. So, all you have to do is just to subscribe to our app and then that would be your class." Posted on our, on our site and, parents would sign up and you could make your additional revenue that way. So that was one big thing that really kind of came out of the pandemic. The other is, we realized that our app is actually beneficial to the music industry, not just the educational area.

[00:24:54] And what I mean is, you know, if you're a record label or, or anybody or Netflix or Disney, you have content that you would like to market. And we realized that our app has created a brand new space and untapped space for quote unquote marketing, musical content. And that's during the school day and during learning time.

[00:25:18] And so we're now not just ed tech, but almost like an ad tech company as well, where, you know, we can go to labels and say, "Hey, wouldn't you like eight additional hours of the day to market your song in a creative way? And oh, by the way, your song is going to help kids get better at math." The answer is 'yes'.

[00:25:39] You know? And so, this is really becoming a really exciting vision for us where we are viewing the educational system and children's hospitals and boys' and girls' clubs, almost like a new distribution channel for

[00:25:54] musical content. And so, you know, again, at our core, our app and mission don't change, right?

[00:26:00] Marcus Blackwell: We're all about helping, but we also want to be a business that'll make it. And especially when we, when we now see that there's a world where school can shut down. You know, it may be a good idea to go after the marketing and promotional dollars of the record labels. 

[00:26:16] Richard Simms: Yeah, that's super interesting. I hadn't really thought about that angle, but it makes a lot of sense. Okay, cool. That's a good kind of dovetail into my next question, which is, you've got a lot going on, right? Like a lot of different moving pieces. There's the app itself, which I'm sure, you're, you know, constantly thinking about making it the best it can be, but you're obviously doing sales, you're doing marketing, you're doing account management, you know?

[00:26:41] So as the founder and CEO, how do you view your role? How do you try to kind of prioritize all these moving pieces day by day?

[00:26:50] Marcus Blackwell: Yeah. So, my role as CEO is more a visionary role, you know? Being able to connect the dots to, like I said, the music industry now and, you know, how are we going to be able to help teachers who are paid enough as teachers and provide them with this opportunity, to make additional revenue and, you know? So it's those two things, but also, you know, my job is more creating a community of people who believe in creative ways of teaching kids, you know?

[00:27:23] So, in the trenches of like creating the equations and creating the curriculum, that's not really my job anymore because that's solid. Right? The, the app works, but now it's about how do we start introducing a real conversation about the importance of innovative learning? Right? So I've created a really cool way to connect math and music.

[00:27:50] Well, I hope that this will start a conversation for how should we connect history and jazz or, you know, science and dance or, you know, like I just think that there's, there's a larger conversation that Make Music Count as representing, and it's about, you know, time for us to think outside the box for how we can reach kids,

[00:28:12] so that again, so that everyone can have that ability to be whatever they want to be. Right? Don't, we still want that for our kids. Right? And you know, we've got a different type of child in the classroom now. That, you know, kind of challenges the teacher like, "Hey, convince me to to be here. Convince me, you know, 'cause I've got a super computer in my pocket where I can find all this stuff you're talking about, but you know, help me find my passions so that I can be my best self."

[00:28:46] So, you know, again, my, my role is, is now, kind of like which direction ?Make Music Count we'll go, you know? I would love for us to own the space of creative learning, you know? And I think that this teaching tutoring platform will do that, but, um, yeah. Those are the things that I really focus on.

[00:29:06] I still make lessons, but you know, I'm hiring now to, you know, bring people like that on board that can, you know, develop the curriculum, you know, manage, you know, the partnerships with schools and stuff, you know, because there's a really important conversation here that's much bigger than simply our math and music curriculum.

[00:29:28] Richard Simms: Yeah. No, that's, that's great to get a sense of kind of the bigger picture vision. And I think that, you know, I do think that so much of learning is that kind of learning how to learn perspective, you know, that you're not necessarily going to remember every detail you learn in history class or science, but if you, you know, get excited about a field and you feel empowered to kind of self-direct, you know, it's like in my day to day and I'm sure it's similar for you,

[00:29:59] it's like, there are tons of things I'm getting into every day that I don't know how to do, or I've never done it before, but you kind of learn to be resourceful and trust yourself. So, yeah, I think that's a big part of it and I definitely like the vision for how I can to expand into other, into other subjects.

[00:30:16] So, so let me ask you something I always ask guests and you've spoken to this to a degree, you know, when it comes to the challenges of kind of innovating within the education space, obviously COVID, but any other big challenges that Make Music Count has faced over the years, that really stick out and how have you

[00:30:38] managed to overcome those? You know, a big goal of this show is for people listening, who are either in the early stages of a new venture or thinking about launching something is like, let's be really real about it's hard, it's rewarding. So I love to just hear some of the like really difficult things that really come with the territory.

[00:31:00] Marcus Blackwell: So, specifically to Make Music Count, our elephant in the room is music licensing, you know? In, in the traditional sense, apps and platforms like mine should pay licensing fees to the music people to use their content. I'm saying, "No, you should pay me to access the space that I've created that markets your content."

[00:31:24] So, we've been having some really interesting conversations because they're like, "Who is this guy? I think he thinks he is to be able to tell us this." And I'm like, "I'm the guy that is connecting your musical content to good stuff, and you know, not just good stuff, but a new space that you cannot reach."

[00:31:40] There's no teacher that says, "Okay, class. Open up your Spotify and turn to..." No, there's no one that does that. You know? So, you know, this isn't far-fetched, it's actually pretty clear that you guys should work with us. So, you know, it's just, and so the point I was making is that you can't let the fear of Armageddon trouble,

[00:32:03] "If I build this, stop you from building it," right? You have, sometimes you have to build the solution so that people can actually see. Like, if I was just talking about this, people would be like, "You shouldn't even start going down this path at all." Because they're going to shut you down. They're going to this, they're going to that.

[00:32:19] Well, you know what? No, they're not. Because there isn't an artist on earth, that's going to say, "Hey, stop using my song to help kids get better at math." There, there isn't one. It would be, uh, uh,a social media nightmare, if I said that somebody said that to me. Right? So I would just say, "You know, you can't, you can't psych yourself out.

[00:32:38] You know, you, you have to be willing to see it through, you know? Like this is, this is year nine for us. And honestly at year nine, I feel like I finally know who we are and how we're going to make it, you know"? And that's with all the challenges of the school districts, you know? And that's where you gotta, you have to be able to go back to your passion for why, why you even started this in the first place.

[00:33:03] You know, there is no better feeling for me than seeing kids, the light bulb come on. And, and, and the joy from a kid that was struggling in a set, like there's, there's nothing that beats that. So even if we help one kid tomorrow, we all still do this. Right? But yeah, you just, you know, it, it is, it is challenging, you know? I, you know, I have a wife and a baby and another on the way, so it's like, you know, you have to build a business that makes revenue, and there are times where there is no revenue coming in many, many times.

[00:33:37] And then, you know, it's, we're in the venture capitals game, right? So you have to talk to people about raising funding. And, you know, there's lots of challenges there with being a solo founder and, you know, having this large, amazing vision, but your revenue doesn't always match the trajectory of what you're talking about.

[00:33:57] So, you know, it's, there's a lot of challenges. It is definitely an uphill battle, but it is rewarding, you know? It's rewarding just at our foundation. Like I said, you know, I get kids to love math that hated math. That is amazing. I'm teaching people how to play the piano that never thought they could play the piano like that.

[00:34:18] That feels amazing, you know? And there are big wins too, revenue wise, right? When we get, you know, a district that buys us for their entire district. Right? You know, we actually did our first marketing partnership with Cartoon Network. That was huge for us. You know, being able to tell them, like, I sold them on this idea.

[00:34:37] I said, "Look, you guys make content for kids, but you don't talk about education enough." And they were like, "You're right. "And I said, "Look, I can help you do that. And it'll benefit you because it's marketing that you don't have right now." And they're were like, "Let's do it." And I said, I said, "This works. This can work with every single platform that's out there, every single TV show, every single song, you know?" And, you know, I don't want to come off as, "Oh, he's trying to just do marketing and I help the kids do more.

[00:35:09] No." We are doing that. That's we have the checkbox there. Right? It's you know, but now we have to, you know, create a business that's going to scale and, and thrive in, I believe that it's bringing more benefit if we bring the benefit to the music industry and use the school system as distribution. That's how we're going to be able to do it.

[00:35:32] Richard Simms: Okay, awesome. Yeah. That's great. And I love hearing about some of the wins too. And I'm sure there's a lot of those for you on, like you said, I'm sure just seeing it in action and seeing a kid really respond is, is the biggest thing that, that kind of keeps you going. So specifically as it relates to launching a software product, like what's, what's kind of the, the main advice you would give someone about to go down that path?

[00:36:00] I mean, there's obviously so many challenges associated with doing a startup, but specifically, it's like, you know, trying to build an app is not easy and there's a lot of things to figure out and to navigate, you know? What? Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:36:13] Marcus Blackwell: Um, I would.. 

[00:36:17] Richard Simms: Know.First of all, an app is never done. Okay? So you have to launch, you gotta get it out there, so people could even tell you that this is something that you should keep doing before you spend hundreds of thousands on building this. So, you know, getting an MVP done,

[00:36:36] Marcus Blackwell: just so that you can show people, you know, because again, being able to take something from an idea faces something that I can now see and touch is very, very different and very important. And, you know, and it's funny, like thinking about like the previous versions of my app and where we are now, I was, I can't believe anybody bought this thing, you know, but, it was important for people to see, and it was good enough

[00:37:01] to be in front of some kids that liked it. And so I would just say, you know, bare bones, just, you know, because it's very expensive to buy these, to build these apps. So, you know, get your idea in something that's tangible so that you can start talking about it, so that you can show people what you're, what you have,

[00:37:23] and then you can kind of build that from there. 

[00:37:26] Richard Simms: Yeah, I think that's, that's great advice. No matter what industry you're breaking into, you know, it's always a struggle, I think, to really embrace that MVP mentality. But, it's very important. 

[00:37:38] Marcus Blackwell: Yes. 

[00:37:39] Richard Simms: So bigger picture question I have for you, looking at the education space, what kind of big trends do you see?

[00:37:46] I think everything is changing there so much, and obviously COVID has amplified that. Like what other big trends do you see that you think are interesting, are going to be really impactful?

[00:37:59] Marcus Blackwell: A couple of things. First, social emotional learning. Right? So we now have kids who have spent maybe two years outside of the school classroom. They don't know how to interact with each other anymore. So, you know, being able to be kind, you know, to someone in the classroom or, you know, interacting with someone is, is big. In social, emotional learning is going to be, it is the new buzzword for all school districts. You know, um,so I would say that's the big one for the school districts. Now something else has been blowing up has been these online tutoring platforms.Outschool blew up during the pandemic. Coursera blew up. There's all these, you know, people are realizing that there's a need for learning outside of the school day.

[00:38:49] And, you know, it's interesting because teachers have been doing this for years where, you know, they'll tutor students in Asia on how to speak English or things like that. But, you know, there's definitely a large push towards these digital platforms. So that's, that's pretty cool. And then of course, you know, as I mentioned before, the importance of STEAM, the arts and ingredient into the STEM fields, that's still, it's being embraced more just because of the need to really engage students in the classroom. 

[00:39:19] Richard Simms: Yeah, that's super interesting. Okay. So I, it looks like we're about out of time. I really appreciate you coming on the show, Marcus. This has been really great. Uh, before we sign off, where can listeners go to connect with you, learn more about Make Music Count? What can, what can folks do to support your mission?

[00:39:38] Marcus Blackwell: Oh yeah. Thank you. So you can go to my website, makemusiccount.com. Our app is free to download and try out in the App Store. So just search Make Music Count on your phone, whether it's Android or iOS, iPads. You'll, you'll really, you'll love it as soon as you see it. you can also find me on social media.

[00:40:01] So on Twitter, we are at _MakeMusicCount. Same thing for Instagram @_makemusiccount. We have a YouTube channel where you can see some examples of me talking through lessons. So if you just search Make Music Count, will, will pop up. And then if you're a adult or a teacher or a college student that would be interested in being one of our virtual tutors, shoot me an email, just shoot me an email, which is Marcus, M A R C U S@makemusiccount.com.

[00:40:35] Marcus Blackwell: And it's very easy. You do not have to be a pianist. You don't have to be a mathematician. You just have to be an engaging, you know, tutor that kids would want to be on Zoom with for, for 30 minutes. Right? So, we'll teach you how to do everything and again, you can make it personal, right? You can bring your favorite song that you'd like to,

[00:40:54] you know, teach kids. So, but yeah, that's, that's how you can reach me on those various platforms. 

[00:41:00] Richard Simms: Awesome. Well, thanks again, Marcus. It's been great having you on the Digital Footprint and, yeah, excited to keep following what you're doing with Make Music Count. 

[00:41:09] Marcus Blackwell: Thanks so much, Richard. I appreciate it. And I appreciate your support for the year. So, thank you. 

[00:41:14] Richard Simms: You too. All right. Thanks again.