Standards and PBL - Matt Navo | E166

Unlock the potential of project-based learning (PBL) and its impact on the future of education with Matt Navo of the California Collaborative for Educational Excellence. Our conversation peels back the layers of educational policy and its intersection with PBL, providing an enlightening perspective on how we can reimagine learning. As a former eighth grade English teacher, my own classroom transformation through PBL led to notable improvements in discipline rates and attendance, a testament to the methodology's effectiveness. With standards at the forefront, we discuss the balancing act between real-world problem-solving and the rigidity of state testing, aiming for a harmonious blend that advances student performance.


Exploring the terrain of instructional frameworks that support PBL, we question the adequacy of a single test to capture the breadth of a student's educational journey. We highlight the critical role of universal design for learning (UDL) in cultivating environments where diverse learning styles can thrive through PBL. Additionally, we address the importance of advocacy in educational policy changes, underlining the power of community involvement in ensuring PBL's longevity. Each chapter of our dialogue paints a picture of the evolving landscape of education—facing challenges, seizing opportunities, and striving toward a future where every classroom is a hub of inspiration and innovation.

CONNECT WITH MATT NAVO

mnavo@ccee-ca.org

https://ccee-ca.org/

Twitter: @MatthewNavo

JOIN THE ONLINE PBL COMMUNITY

https://resources.magnifylearningin.org/join-today

SIGN UP FOR THE MAGNIFY LEARNING NEWSLETTER

https://www.magnifylearningin.org/newsletter-sign-up

SHARE A PBL WIN!

www.pblshare.com 

ORDER THE BOOK PBL SIMPLIFIED

https://amzn.to/3VLsBtG

SCHEDULE A PBL TRAINING WITH MAGNIFY LEARNING

https://resources.magnifylearningin.org/onsite-workshops

CHECK OUT RESOURCES MENTIONED ON THE PODCAST

PBL Simplified Podcast Links

ASK RYAN A QUESTION FOR THE PODCAST

https://www.magnifylearningin.org/ask-ryan-your-pbl-questions

FOLLOW RYAN ON TWITTER

https://mobile.twitter.com/ryansteuer

BOOK A MAGNIFY LEARNING DESIGN DAYS WORKSHOP

https://www.magnifylearningin.org/design-days-sign-up

Some of the links above are affiliate links which means we get a small commission on anything you purchase using that link (at no more cost to you). As Amazon Associates, we earn from qualifying purchases.

Transcript

Ryan Steuer: 0:00

Did you come to the podcast today wondering if your school is ready for project-based learning? Or maybe you want to culture snapshot? Either way, I've got the perfect resource for you. It's a needs assessment for your culture. So if you go to pblculturecom that's pblculturecom you can download your free needs assessment. We're going to give you a snapshot of what it can look like, what other schools have done with this needs assessment. We're going to give you all the tools to run the needs assessment and we're going to give you a video series that walks you through it so you're comfortable implementing. This is a service that we used to white glove and it was well over $5,000. But we want you to get in the game right now. So we're offering this needs assessment completely free, everything that you need in order to run it, to see where your school is at today. So go to pblculturecom to download your free needs assessment right now. Welcome to the PBL Simplified Podcast.

Ryan Steuer: 0:52

I'm your host, Ryan Stoyer, also the CEO of Magnify Learning, also a former eighth grade English teacher that taught traditionally for a while and then flipped the project-based learning and saw a whole new learner in my classroom, Teaching at an urban school that had about a little less than a thousand kids in seventh and eighth grade, which is a lot of kids, and we had a small learning community that went to project-based learning, demographically balanced, so completely balanced, just like the other side of the building. And we saw discipline go down. Out of 25% of the kids, we had 8% of discipline. In F school we would have been a B and attendance was 2% higher, which, if you're a large middle school, you understand that's a big deal. But for the most part, kids showed up and did what they were supposed to do and they're real fired up about it. It was amazing Same kids but they now had a Y for their learning and that, my friends, is a game changer. And that's why, at Magnify Learning, we want project-based learning to be everywhere, and this podcast is one of those outlets that we try to answer some of your need to know.

Ryan Steuer: 1:56

The need to know today is one that everybody should be asking and that's how does policy, educational policy at a state and national level, affect project-based learning? And you might think, oh well, that's the superintendent's job, or that's the principal's job, or that's the teacher's job. It's probably also the parent's job, by the way, if I could just throw that in there, like we're all in this same boat and I'm also going to be pretty transparent that I'm not great at understanding and affecting policy. Like that's not really my jam. I'm like in the trenches. Hey, I'm going to look at the research, but I want to make sure that this works in the trenches before I suggest anything or before we create a tool.

Ryan Steuer: 2:35

All the tools we create at Magnify Learning are from teachers in the classroom. They've been tested over and over and over again and there's always iterations. We don't even understand what it means to just have a first draft. It's always draft after draft after draft before we really put it out there for anybody. So all that to say that I've got a lot to learn in policy, when it comes to policy. And when I look at a broad brush of policy and what would I change? You know in standards-based testing that that state test comes up every time in every conversation and maybe we should get that to change. But I just again, I'm just a bit too much of a realist in that regard, Like, and I'm a dreamer for sure and a visionary for sure, but when I look at that it's like that's a tough one to move.

Ryan Steuer: 3:25

So what we do at Magnify Learning is we say we're going to excel at that state testing aspect while we're bringing employability skills and while we're solving real-world problems, while we're giving your learners new opportunities they would have never had on their own. I guess it's part of the process. Like we start, every PBL unit starts at standards. Then we build out the community partner. Who does this in the real world? Who cares about this? Who can we help? Those are three great questions to ask, by the way. And then you start to figure out what's the end product, what's the problem that the kids are going to solve, and you go solve it and you should be excelling in those state tests as well.

Ryan Steuer: 4:02

That's how we've approached this policy piece, but I also see that as a little bit of a cop out. Right, so that, organizationally, that's who we are, so that part's not a cop out. We want to help you in the trenches with things that we know work in the classroom, but we also need to look at this policy piece. So what I do is, if it's something that I'm not super strong at, I collaborate Right.

Ryan Steuer: 4:24

So I've got somebody on the podcast today that's going to help talk to us about policy. So Matt Navarro is going to commanding his executive director of the California Collaborative for Educational Excellence, CCEE, which is a great acronym. But Matt has a ton of experience and he's going to talk us through some of these policy pieces and I'm going to poke and prod a little bit, because I like to learn on the podcast just as much as you. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. All right, visionary leaders, we've got another leadership guest episode for you today. This is where we bring in someone from education, business or sports to up your leadership game, and today we've got Matt Navarro with us. He's got extensive experience in all sides of K-12 education teacher, administrator and advocate for innovation, innovative educational solutions. Matt's currently executive director of the California Collaborative for Educational Excellence. That's a lot of stuff to say that Matt knows education and we're glad to have him here. Thanks, Matt, for coming on.

Matt Navo: 5:22

Hey, you're welcome. Pleasure to be here.

Ryan Steuer: 5:24

So, matt, every guest that comes on, teacher, Principal, whoever, gets the same first question. And that is what is your why, for the work that you do.

Matt Navo: 5:33

Oh, that's a great question. I love that you start with that because you know my why has changed, I think, like a lot of educators now over three decades of doing this work, it changes over time.

Matt Navo: 5:47

And for it depends on what role you're sitting in. Oftentimes, I mean, you can always go back. For me, it's always going back to kids and making sure that kids are getting what they need so that they can be productive adults and have options and opportunities in their life. Those are, like, I think, something that granularly connects all educators together. But for me it goes a little bit deeper than that and in this current role it's really about empowering people to do their best work. I'm motivated by teams working together to accomplish common goals. I have always been motivated by the power of adults coming together on behalf of children, and when I see that, that, for me, gives me hope that my why is much broader than just myself. My why is much more connected to the working benefit of adults and others to do the work on behalf of kids. So for me, that's what grounds me now, 30 years plus later.

Ryan Steuer: 6:47

Yeah, I think it's yeah and still rooted in kids at the end of the day. Right, and I like that. You've kind of maybe there's some exponential impact as you're working with other adults to empower them, to maybe empower other adults to help even more kids.

Ryan Steuer: 7:02

So, thank you for sharing that. It sounds like you're in the right place. Glad to have you here talking to our listeners. So, like you said you've it's not your first day, so you've got a lot of K-12 experience in a lot of different areas. What's just the best advice that you've ever been given on your journey.

Matt Navo: 7:18

Yeah, it's. I've had some great failures in my journey on an education.

Matt Navo: 7:24

I think you know all the way from a teacher my first job being a fifth grade teacher, my second job being a four, five, six, a special day class teacher until now, and I've run into a lot of people that have a lot of good advice. But I think one of the things that you know I take away that has been, has served me well, whether it's been in a principal ship or any kind of leadership situation is that being a leader isn't isn't about how much you know. You don't show up to that table as the, the wizard of all knowing for education. Being a leader is more about a factor of how much you are willing to serve when you're in a leadership position. It's not about the position, it's about the service that you can provide to those around you. That enables them to do their best work.

Matt Navo: 8:23

And when I show up in that way, I feel empowered as an educator, I feel empowered as a person, I feel fulfilled spiritually. That that's where I need to be and it helps me get out my own way, because, in addition to that advice, I was given advice where you only get in your own way when you think you're somebody. Stay out of your own way when you realize you're nobody. And I think you know ego is oftentimes a stumbling block for a lot of leaders, that they have to protect, that they have to show up and know everything. They have to have all the right answers. They really don't want to empower others to do that. They do better work.

Ryan Steuer: 9:06

So I'm going to go off script for a second. Take this little rabbit truck, because you said something that's really interesting to me, that I agree with that. The ego can get in the way of your leadership, as you're trying to serve, but isn't there some amount of ego that's needed to say, lead a building of 1500, of like a large high school right, or, you know, an elementary of 500 plus kids? Is there an ego that's needed, or how would you put those two together?

Matt Navo: 9:31

Yeah, no, I think no, I think it's courage. I think you know any leader who gets in into the space. If they're motivated by trying to accomplish their next political or positional step to get to an aspirational career goal, they're probably motivate, being motivated by ego, and I think sometimes that can get in the way of whereas somebody who shows up with a who is tapped on the shoulder to serve 1500 kids at a high school, 3000 kids at some of the high schools, you bet you better have a keen sense of courage and in a great deal of confidence, but not ego.

Ryan Steuer: 10:18

Yeah, great, that's such a great distinction. That's why we've got you on the podcast. We want to, we want to mine those gems. That's a good one. I really like that. Not ego, it's courage and that does that. But I want to take us in a different direction. There's a lot of places we could go with the wisdom that you're bringing us today, but I want to take us in kind of a direction of policy.

Ryan Steuer: 10:40

So, we have visionary leaders that are listening. For a myriad of different reasons, they know that kids need real world skills, they need employability skills. Maybe it's equity or engagement. In some way they've tapped project based learning as that avenue. So what are some policies that we need to be, that are out there, that we need to be looking for, thinking about, that are either going to like further this cause or maybe they're hurting the cause of PBL and classrooms. What do you think we should be looking for?

Matt Navo: 11:07

Well, I mean, I think there's a couple of things that are hurting the cause of PBL and the classroom. I think it's easier to start there and then maybe you know, gravitate over to some of the things that are helping. I think, some of the ways, regardless of which state you're in and which position you serve, there's a couple of things happening post pandemic that are driving, that are making it even harder to really have a rich conversation about project based learning, and that is that when we ground ourselves in an infinite mindset around standardized testing, we lose and we reduce the freedom of the education educational practitioner in the classroom to take the risks, to do the things that we are required in a project based learning classroom. There's there's a degree of innovation and transformation that needs to take place in a classroom to really promote the idea that kids get choice and how they're trying to engage in content, that kids connect to the real life experiences outside their classroom, and we're making a connection between the standards and the content that we're teaching. And what does this really mean for you as a young adult or a young person?

Matt Navo: 12:24

And yet what's happening is we're playing a finite game in education whereby we're measuring the quality of the preft profession by a single number, and what that does for educators is they they'll play, they don't play with, they don't show all the cards. It's hard for them to play all the cards that are necessary to play a fair game for their kids, because it forces them to only play a certain game to meet the requirements or to demonstrate that they are effective educators, because students have to demonstrate on a standardized test that that they learn the content. And so what happens is I, you know, most people that are engaged in project based learning, as you are, know that the best way to teach content is through that, that mechanism. In fact, you will learn more, right, but but teachers and and principals and administrators, when they see educational delivery that is, that is, that is beyond standard education and demonstrating quick understanding of the content, it makes them nervous and they feel like they're going to lose the game because there's so much pressure, so to speak. Yeah.

Matt Navo: 13:46

And I think what's happening is because of that.

Matt Navo: 13:49

Teachers are and this is there's a great book Simon Sinek came out with the infinite game, which is which I think it's really important, but teachers eventually educators run out of the will and resources to continue to play that game.

Matt Navo: 14:04

It doesn't cross the intersection for them on passion and purpose, and educators and students the passion and purpose intersects for many of them, in the opportunity to do project based learning, in my opinion, and so I think you know there's some things that are hurting our ability to work.

Matt Navo: 14:24

We speak out of both sides of our mouth. We talk about an infinite minded game when it comes to education. We want kids to be able to be productive adults, we want them to be able to function and cognitively think at high levels, and at the same time, though, we're going to measure that through this finite measurement. And and so if, for educators, we we talk about this aspirational vision and then we force them into a finite game, and what you know Simon Sinek so graciously calls out is you can't play both games at the same time, and so that complicates things. I think that's one thing that's really getting in the way when we think about policy, the types of things that we are, you know, drafting in our states. That limits the ability for teachers to take risks and innovate, because it has consequential impact on how they are measured as a professional. They, they, they are less likely to take risks and try something new.

Ryan Steuer: 15:21

Well you're. You're always welcome to bring Simon Sinek references into the podcast, right? That's? That's why we start with. Why, right? So I don't know that I've ever made that connection and I should have that we're trying to play a finite in an infinite game at the same time when we look at these standardized tasks. So do you think I'm interrupting your thought here too? But as we look at policy, as educators should we be pushing back on that? You know we've kind of taken the stance at magnify learning, that we're going to achieve those standardized test goals through project based learning. Right, the academic standards are a vehicle to engage in real world problem solving and employability skills. So, and we work with, you know, schools across the country, in some places that that's heavier than others.

Ryan Steuer: 16:11

As far as what that state mandate looks like, but I wouldn't say that we've ever taken a stance of you know where we're against standardized tests. Do you think we need to reframe some of that language?

Matt Navo: 16:22

You know, not necessarily because I don't think politically it's ever going to go away.

Ryan Steuer: 16:26

Right. I mean.

Matt Navo: 16:27

I mean, unless we get some really you know interesting thinking by some of the decision making, some of the decision makers in a federal government that I think can reevaluate whether or not this is the most effective means, I don't think it's going to go away.

Matt Navo: 16:43

I think, you know, parents and advocates and many others want some kind of measure that tells them whether or not schools and are making the grade.

Matt Navo: 16:52

So I don't necessarily think it's a good use of effort to try and reduce that. But I think, where you know, what we need to be thinking about is how do we tell the story of project based learning so it's not tied to a finite measure? How do we tell a story of project based learning so it's tied in something that's greater than that, so that a policymaker, a legislature, a legislative staff member, a Senate or a assembly member realizes that the investment in project based learning isn't an investment that we make with one time funds to help districts just do one time efforts. This is this is something that we prioritize as an infinite minded way, that we want to change education over time and that there are going to be other measures graduation rates, post secondary rates of college completion that are going to be equally as telling to us about the quality of education when it when it comes to measuring and really pushing for project based learning outcomes.

Matt Navo: 18:00

So I think I don't think we ever get rid of it. But I think when we tie an infinite minded goal to a finite measure, we run the risk of running running out of on rent for people to get on space. Because what happens when it doesn't show? And yet base learning is is is grounded in the right educational framework for people to be thinking. But what happens when it doesn't show?

Matt Navo: 18:26

In California, for example, you know the way in which which states are organized. Their testing is different. But in California, at the secondary level, our juniors are 11th graders, take the assessment, so for four years of education. But a student might receive at a high school. The quality of that education is going to be measured at their junior year and it's going to be measured at the end of their junior year when they're pretty excited about being a senior.

Matt Navo: 18:55

And, and I just question at times, is that enough? Does that capture the essence of all of the efforts that those educators have made in four years? And do those students show up with the right mindset to say I need to demonstrate my best thinking because it has great impact on my school district? I would argue they probably don't. And yet, and yet in high schools they are doing some incredible things and students are graduating at really high levels and yet in their standardized testing it's not showing up. My own son, who's very capable and has aspirational goals for really going a lot of different places and is really more motivated by real life work, he didn't take the assessment, you know he didn't, we didn't have him take it, and so yet there's a measure that's lost, and so I think sometimes we put a lot of eggs in that and it can come back and buy this.

Ryan Steuer: 19:53

Yeah, any other policies that kind of come to mind that we should be thinking about as as folks looking at PBL.

Matt Navo: 20:01

Well, I think you know there is something that does come to mind and it doesn't show up often, but if I'm a principal or I'm a superintendent and I'm trying to think about project based learning and how to launch it, I've seen successful launches and I've seen unsuccessful launches. The unsuccessful launches of PBL have been let's do PBL for the sake of PBL, because it's just good, good instruction and and it's the it's the right way to engage students with complicated content. It's the right way to give them choice. It's the right way to choose multiple what means for them to engage, and it gives us a sense as educators.

Matt Navo: 20:41

This is something bigger than what the standards would read, the standards for education. They can be relatively complicated and mundane, but when you talk about a project based learning outcome, you talk about a project that's actually meaningful to a kid. You can get some really transformational engagement. I remember at a secondary level the standard was we were at an alternative at. I was principal of an alternative ed school in that course. That 30 years and there's no greater challenge than engaging a student who's in an alternative ed setting in the pros and cons of the Civil War.

Ryan Steuer: 21:21

That is a really tough.

Matt Navo: 21:24

You know, they've got to have a motivation for wanting to learn that and they're sitting in that. We did a lot of project based learning. We had students engage in that conversation in a different way and I'll never forget a student who had an aspirational goal to be a rapper a young kid, a young student of ours, which I know that that was farfetched but that was his thing. He decided that we had coordinated and said, okay, let's figure out how do we use what he wants to do to let him tell us a story about the Civil War? And he did, and he did it in a way that I would never have guessed, by wrapping in front of his class the pros and cons of the Civil War. It was the most inventive way I've ever seen. But it wouldn't have happened had the teacher not been thinking with that lens and I think that one of the things that gave her the ability to do that was we crafted a policy where there are three things schools need. They need to have a robust collaboration structures for teachers can engage around the projects that they're asking kids to do and the quality and how they're assessing those. They need to have a robust interventions. So when kids are not learning. They need to have ways in which they're addressing those needs.

Matt Navo: 22:49

But the final one is the one that I think most educators don't engage with as often enough. They have to have a high quality instructional framework that guides and motivates the project based learning that you want to take place, and most educators don't spend enough time thinking what is the high quality instructional framework that I'm going to use? That's going to shape the language of my organization, from the classroom to the boardroom, from administrator to teacher. That gives us something to talk about. That doesn't make the conversation about PBL. What makes the conversation about instruction that solicits PBL? Yeah.

Matt Navo: 23:27

And that policy. You know you always can look at universal design for learning as a grounding framework that people need to really think about as a policymaker, because what it does is it grounds the conversation and it solicits the instructional need that says, well, I can't do this framework without engaging with project based learning versus project based learning driving an instructional change. Sure, sometimes I think it's easier to go from the instructional change that creates the demand for project based learning.

Ryan Steuer: 24:02

Sure, how can we get to this vision that we've created, that we want for our learners and doing that groundwork, if you will right the foundational work and then you go and look at your options?

Matt Navo: 24:13

Yes. Right, and then yes, because PBL, when you lead with PBL, the educator that has sat there like me for many years says okay, here's the next new shiny object. Yeah.

Matt Navo: 24:24

This, too, shall pass when this administrator is onto their next thing. So I'm not going to engage in this new way of thinking, because this is the new and best and greatest versus how do you think about your instruction as a teacher, veteran or new? That has the principles of UDL. That gives multiple means for students to represent what they're learning, gives multiple means for them to engage in the content. If you just look at those two, it's going to drive you towards oh, PBL might be a way to help me meet those demands.

Ryan Steuer: 24:58

Sure, yeah, I love that. I know, anytime we talk about waiting out an initiative, my mentor teacher, when I was in the classroom, you know, pbl came along and I was like, and he loves kids? Right, he loved kids. I was like Bruce, I think this is really going to help us reach more of our kids and he's like I'm going to wait this one out. And I was a young teacher I was like, well, what's that mean? Like they said, we have to do it right. Yeah, if you give it a couple of years it'll go away. Yes, right, but if you can get your staff, you know, really thinking through the foundation work of what's best for our learners, you know, in some of that cultural work, then PBL has a place to land.

Matt Navo: 25:32

That's right. That's right. You nailed it. I'm going to wait this one out. So many educated it's even at the state policy. I'm going to wait until the money run dry. Then the people that are moving this initiative, they leave, yep and it stops. And so many educators. Teachers have invested time and energy and have seen that cyclical cycle come back and forth. They're much more. There are much more late adopters to educational ideas than there were, say, 20 years ago.

Ryan Steuer: 26:02

And it's probably fair. It's probably a fair position, right, and in some regards I don't right, if you look at some state policies as well. So that's kind of where we're landing is on this policy side is maybe you're waiting those out. So you've done your needs assessment. You went to pblculturecom, you ran the needs assessment with your staff. You're ready for project-based learning, but maybe you aren't ready to travel to one of our model schools.

Ryan Steuer: 26:27

Well, we can bring design days to you. We bring our two-day workshop to your school and work with your leadership team to develop a three-year plan around project-based learning. As we do that, we're building mission vision, values. We're introducing protocols, we're introducing processes that we've run partners through so that they have a successful pbl implementation. You want this plan before you start pbl. The other piece that it brings you is culture. You have a leadership team that has bought into your vision, this pbl vision, because they helped create it. It's been co-created. So now they're gonna go as teacher leaders and as your administrative staff to go out and speak forth this vision. It's not just coming from you, the building leader. This is super strong for your sustainability of your vision. So take a look in the show notes to see if you're ready for design days. So how do we advocate as schools and school districts Like who should be advocating for policy changes? We should be in that conversation.

Matt Navo: 27:31

The ones closest to the work. Right, you have to have teachers, but oftentimes what is overlooked? You've got to have community, you've got to have families and students advocating for educational change, advocating for we need a different way to engage in an instructional platform that builds equitable outcomes and equitable engagement for students. The way that a child engages from in content in the, let's just say, la Unified is much different than a child who is going to engage in content up North and say Humboldt County. And so I think oftentimes if it's the principal and it's the superintendents advocating for these kinds of changes, but they're not loud enough, they don't carry enough voice in that conversation.

Matt Navo: 28:33

Because there was a study by the Stewart Foundation years ago in 2010,. If you remember Common Core, when Common Core came in 2010, they put, they sent 100, they sent 10 superintendents to New York and they put them in from 100 audience members and they gave those audience members a dial, like you would on a game show, where you dial it up, if you like what you hear, and you dial it down. And so the study for the Bain Stewart was go out and sell these families Common Core. So they collected the superintendents from the largest school districts in the country Miami-Dade, boston Public Schools, la County.

Matt Navo: 29:18

These are superintendents who are used to speaking and selling initiatives. So if you think about it from the PBL perspective, when they went out to sell Common Core, they found that there were some finite things that superintendents did that really forced the community to dial down. So they dialed down immensely. The study ends with a couple of findings. Basically, and the last finding is the one I think is most relevant to the question you just asked who should be advocating.

Matt Navo: 29:51

The first finding was the message is lost on people after 27 words, nine seconds or three messages. So within 27 words, the people already made up their mind I'm in or I'm out in the average and they missed three messages. So there has to be three messages about whatever it is you're advocating for, no more, no less, anything more. People didn't read, or nine seconds. So if you can't hone in on three messages and you can't speak 27 words, you got more. The average was nine seconds. They had made up their mind. They ran it out, but the number one thing that they left with was it wasn't that the superintendents had anything poor to say about Common Core. It was that the superintendents were the wrong messenger. When they sent a superintendent out and they said so what they'd do is they'd pull them back in and hone their message again and say, okay, go out again. Hone their message again and go out again when they started to have the superintendents lead with. I have children in the educational system that dials data. So I think so.

Matt Navo: 30:58

What it's saying is that whoever is talking about PBL at a policy level may not be the people living PBL. And in order to get those two who are making policy, you have to get those who are experiencing it on a positive end in front of them. And so, although the superintendent carries voice and authority and the principal carries voice and authority, it's the teacher and, even more so, it might even be the student, and it might even be the parent that's saying this. If it wasn't for PBL, my child wouldn't be as successful as they are right now.

Ryan Steuer: 31:37

Yeah, we see that at a maybe a smaller level. A lot of systems are bringing their learners to board meetings to talk to the board, to talk to the board about the successes of PBL, so that they have a story to tell. So it sounds like maybe the same thing should be happening at the state level as well.

Matt Navo: 31:56

It has to be. And you know when the legislatures go into session and they have people advocating for a you know a myriad of things. The advocates, voices are pretty loud, but you and you and you get parents. They're advocating for things they don't like, right, very rarely do you have parents they're advocating for something they do. So I think that you know it's refreshing when they hear from families and students that hey, pbl really is a, is a, is an educational framework and a platform. That really helped me engage with content much. Now the key is keeping the legislature from shifting to. What kind of results did you get on the standardized test?

Matt Navo: 32:38

Right, that's right, yeah, and that's where the infinite minded thinking of what do we want our kids to know and be able to do when they leave high school becomes more important than what did you want me to score?

Ryan Steuer: 32:51

Yeah, that's good. There's a lot in there. I just had on the podcast a guest who she was a PBL learner and now she's a PBL facilitator and being able to hear really in your and Simon Sennig's words that the infinite impact of PBL in her life, it's powerful. You know just the way that she reflects now on every aspect of her life that she now wants to give back to more learners. That is a powerful story that's probably not being told at the state policy level, so that's a good challenge.

Matt Navo: 33:25

Yeah, and I think you know I think it is. It's just not being told effectively for what I can tell.

Ryan Steuer: 33:30

Okay.

Matt Navo: 33:31

You know there's people here in California that there's advocacy around project. We're just not, we're not telling it the right way and we're not telling it with the right volume. There's more. There's more because of post COVID anchored to learning acceleration and the dismal effects of the dismal impact it's had on student learning, and everybody's in a race to recover and I think our state board chair, linda, dr Linda Darlin-Hammond, has been incredibly thoughtful about trying to say now, that's not the game we're trying to get back to. We're trying to get back to a different way of doing business and project based learning. She talks about it. It's there's much better way to measure the quality of education and the thoughtfulness of educators than a standardized test. But that's that's a game we can't ignore either.

Ryan Steuer: 34:27

Yeah, so I mean that's that's a great point. So there are things being said out there. How do the PBL leaders that are listening, how do we stay connected and informed Some of the policy pieces that are happening out there?

Matt Navo: 34:39

Yeah, I think that that's. That's a tough one, but the simple, the simple way is there has to be an interconnected, statewide network of people that are informing, of informing each other around effective policies that are happening. Oftentimes, when I see the networks occurring, they're informing each other around hey, this is happening.

Matt Navo: 35:01

We need to stop this happening as opposed to, you know, identifying the research in the bright spots, that is, calling out that PBL is a an effective way of instruction. Here in in California, we had a 2019 positive outliers report that was produced, basically identified by the most effective districts in the state and what they were doing, and I found that to be really, really incredibly insightful, because what it solicited was that nowhere did it say that they any of these districts were, you know, outperforming everybody on standardized tests. They had high standardized test scores, but it was more grounded in the effective practices that they, that they were engaged in, that were were working across their district. And I think, for PBL. You know, what I lack in this role here even is where are the bright spots in the state, across the state that we can learn from. That will help us inform our work, and we learned a lot from a recent collaboration in the National Center for Tents of Intervention.

Matt Navo: 36:19

We had a network of 29 states. Those 29 states came together to say how do we support our low performing schools, and the best learning that they had together was when those states shared. These are the things that are doing. That's working, and so when Colorado shared with Arizona and Arizona is reacting to that. They all tend to gravitate. If that's working there, it can work here, but we but we missed. We have to have an intentional conversation around where it across the country, as project based learning, obtaining not only the soft skill results, those things that are, you know, not seen as easily, but those, those other skills that are more readily available to and are measured. Where can we see them? Where can we learn? Where can we go visit? Where can networks be developed? That's, I think, something that, as I grapple here in our state, we're missing. We're having to do that research ourselves. I would think it would be out there.

Ryan Steuer: 37:26

Yeah. So, matt, as you look out with your 30 years of experience and this, this large view that you're looking at I love the wording that you're using as you're looking at networks, things across the country, you look out five years, the next five years. What are you hopeful for in education? Look about looking for bright spots. What are you hopeful for Looking forward?

Matt Navo: 37:49

Well, I think we're at an inflection point in education and I think that we have two things that work against us. There's, I'll just think, I'm just going to think, you know, like you said, pretty globally, yeah, as I look from, from my perspective, there's a focus and an effort conversation and on an effort scale of one to five, educators are getting, they get a five out of five. I don't know of an educator that's not working overtime. You know, you don't, can't talk to an educator, it's not rethinking their, their career choice because of the exhaustion. There's not an educator that's, you know, they just don't talk about it like we did in the eight when I went to school and when I was teaching in the late, you know, early nineties, late nineties. It's just, it's it's different. On the effort scale, we get a one, we get a five out of five. But on the focus scale, what are we focused on as an educational system? You know, I give us a two out of five because there's so much that is happening in an effort to respond to the pandemic related consequences of our, the decisions we made in education, what we were forced to do and what we asked educators to do, and I think that I am hopeful that, given where we are, we're going to be able to build a more focused effort towards really what is it that we want kids to know and be able to do when they leave our educational systems and really reevaluate.

Matt Navo: 39:24

Are we on the right track right now? And listen to Tia, our scientists is a really exciting difference. You know I would. We just I'm going to side with you. That's not right. People are contemplating if you're going to use a single metric to measure the effectiveness of the profession. We're going to be at this for a long time. The only way to get the innovation is to fail, and so I think that there's an opportunity for us. I am hopeful, from where I sit, given what I see in California and what I see in other states, that there's an opportunity to really reduce the noise. Money is gonna run tight across the country because of attendance issues. You can't be around a school district without them talking about the federal funds running now. Attendance issues are a challenge.

Matt Navo: 40:16

Chronic absenteeism is an issue. We've got to re-engage kids back into school. Well, that means we have to focus on a few things, not a lot of things, and we have. When the money runs out, it's gonna force districts, it's gonna force states to say, okay, with the money we have, what can we do? And that's gonna give us an opportunity to say, okay, maybe we do put our efforts into broadening the educational framework and the educational expectations, to say that we want more for our kids and we have to expand the ability for teachers to do that work, to share the world with them in a different way.

Ryan Steuer: 41:01

That sounds hopeful man. I like it. I hope I hope.

Matt Navo: 41:05

I hope it does. It's got to be hopeful Because there's a lot of negative noise out there, but there are some things that we can look forward to and I think that's an opportunity. That's what keeps me going right now.

Ryan Steuer: 41:16

Yeah, I mean there are some bright spots. We've got some model schools that are doing some amazing things and we're trying to share their story as much as we can. I like how you even brought in the hopeful piece into the effort, which I think is undeniable. Our teachers are working hard, they're working together. That's always been the case that I've seen in education. Where can we focus? Where can we focus on student outcomes and what do we want that ideal graduate to leave our school system with so they can go be productive citizens so good. So, matt, I'm super excited to be connected. I've loved our conversation off air and on air, glad we could share this. How can our audience stay connected with you and your work?

Matt Navo: 41:58

Well, they can get us through CCE. It's cce-caorg. That's our website. They can also obviously email me at mnovel at cce-caorg. We are a young state non-state agency. We have 36 people that span the state of California on behalf of the state board and the governor and the department. We work with practitioners to help them accomplish their local control accountability plan goals, and so we've got a lot going on. But we also are eagerly interested in learning from others so that we can help those in the field. So anybody can get a hold of me that way.

Ryan Steuer: 42:43

Great, I appreciate that mindset. We'll put all those details and some social media handles in the show notes so people can connect that way. Matt, thanks for being in the podcast today. I really appreciate it it was my pleasure.

Matt Navo: 42:54

Thank you, Ryan.

Ryan Steuer: 42:55

All right, visionary leaders. We kind of pushed on this policy piece, but I also think we went in a couple different directions. I think we helpful and you as you look at your leadership. So play this one again and see where you can stay connected, where you can affect policy and how is that affecting you and your district and the work that you have ahead of you. And as you continue to focus and look in this direction, you'll engage your learners, tackle boredom and transform your classrooms. So go lead inspired.

Ryan Steuer: 43:25

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the PBL Simplified Podcast. I appreciate you and honor that you tune in each week. Would you please take two minutes to leave a rating and a review? When you leave a review, it lets the next person know that this is a podcast worth listening to. When they go into their player and search project-based learning, and PBL Simplified popped up, when they see those reviews, they know that high quality visionary leaders are listening, so they tune in too and they can find their way into the PBL journey. Thank you so much for leaving a review. Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate you.