In PLCs, principles are called upon to regard themselves as leaders of leaders rather than leaders of followers. That's a quote from Chad Dumas' book, our Guest Today. His book's titled let's Put the Sea in PLC a Practical Guide for School Leaders. Chad has a lot of wisdom he's going to bring to us today as we look at PLCs and how they connect to PBL. I think you're going to enjoy the interview. Before we get to that, though, I want to grab our need to know and I'm just going to connect it right to our guests today because we're going to be able to expound on that.
Ryan Steuer:But it's a question I get often is how do PLCs and PBL work together? And when I was first asked I was like well, of course, they naturally go together because of the intentionality of the work. But that's kind of the shallow level of response, right. So I went a little deeper and just started thinking, went into the deep think tank and looked at our model schools, and almost all of our model schools across the country have PBL connected to PLCs. They're doing both. There's Niosho, indian apolis, florida, kentucky, like wherever they're at. The PLC process is connected to the project based learning process and I think it's this intentionality of learning, looking at data, reflecting right Like. There are a lot of values that we share in these two ideas, which is why I'm super excited to have Chad on today as a guest. So how do they fit together? They fit together really well because I think the PBL process has this intentionality of defining a problem, defining what it looks like when it's solved, going through the research to solve that and then reflecting on the answer.
Ryan Steuer:And as you look through the PLC process that we talked about today with Chad, you're going to find a very similar process and I don't think one can take the place of the other. I think they're complementary and they both take a fair amount of professional development. I don't think you can just decide tomorrow how to do PBL and PLCs when you can, but you need to be ready to do the professional development around it. You're going to want to bring people in for this. It's not just something you're going to teach all of your people, even if you're an expert. Even if you're an expert on both of these PLCs and PBL you've done it before at another school, even as a leader You're still going to want to bring people in for this so that you can take this new team now through the process, they can think all these new thoughts of how they're going to look at education differently, and that's part of the process. Is them ruminating, the questioning, the answering that's all part of that process. So hopefully that kind of tees up our talk today with Chad and we'll continue to answer that need to know of how PLCs and PBLs work together.
Ryan Steuer:Before we jump in, though, I want to read a review on the podcast. Many thanks to Radioactive Rockstar for saying that PBL Simplified Podcast is timely and relevant. He says I appreciate the variety of perspectives that are shared on this podcast. Ryan and his guests make PBL accessible to the listener. That's just here in a new year, here in January, and keep those reviews coming in. One it's just encouraging as we podcast out into the universe.
Ryan Steuer:There's not a whole lot of feedback loops for this work until we meet and we do a workshop and those types of things, but I appreciate you taking the time. It takes about two minutes to scroll down and rate and review the podcast and just lets us know like what's working right. Like, is it the need knows? Is it the guests? Is it the leadership episodes the PBL showcases? What is it that you really appreciate about the PBL Simplified Podcast. There's a lot of moving parts and we know that we do have listeners that listen to the different aspects, but it's super helpful to hear that and review just to get that feedback.
Ryan Steuer:So again, thank you to Radioactive Rockstar to know that we're making PBL accessible. That is the goal. In doing that. We've got a training coming up accessibility right here in Spring Break that's coming up. So if you're listening in real time, here in Spring Break we're going to have some virtual PBL workshops that are available. We'll put the links down in the description and, of course, summer is ramping up. So we've got a bunch of either open workshops that you can get into or you can have some version of an on-site workshop where we come to you and we customize that work. So in that, I think we've got you teed up and ready to go for Chad Dumas his book. Again, I'm sure I'll teed up again, but it's let's put the C in PLC and it's a practical guide for school leaders. I hope you enjoy the episode as much as I enjoyed the conversation.
Ryan Steuer:All right, pbl simplified listeners welcome back. We have a leadership episode today and when we have these leadership episodes it's really meant to up your leadership game. So we bring in someone from sports or business or education and today we've got dr Chad Dumas with. He's an educational consultant, author, trainer, collaborator which I think is one of the best titles is to have collaborator in there and he serves with solution tree, is PLC at work associate and he's had a ton of experience so in a host of positions in schools, everything from teacher to principal to central office administrator. And one of the main reasons we brought him on is his book. Let's put the C in PLC. Read the book, Absolutely love it. Here's a quote and it says at the foundation of my educational philosophy Is the belief that humans learn best by doing. Or there's children, youth or adults, and I love that idea. Chad, thanks for joining us today.
Chad Dumas:Oh, it's my pleasure.
Ryan Steuer:Thanks so much for having me on so, chad, everybody gets the same question to start out with. So what is your why for the work that you do? Oh?
Chad Dumas:Yeah, my well, why? Is very simply our future, and that is our children, right? The children and junior youth can use the young people today, and I Believe that part of the purpose of humanity is to carry on an ever-advancing civilization, right? So, like my dad would say to me when I was a kid, he said you know, you're gonna be a better father and husband and human being, because I'm trying to raise you that way and you should. You know, I think I'm trying to be a better human being, father and person, than my father was, and and your kids will continue that Generational Advancement. And so education is the foundation of that right like. Education allows humans to to mind the depths of the pearls of wisdom and Virtues that are inherent in us, and so that humanity that can come out through our education. And so that's why that's that's like. Quite simply, it's for our future and the children and young people.
Ryan Steuer:Yeah, quite, quite simply, I love that right. So it's not just because you needed a gig, right. So, right, like we're changing the world and that's, yes, one of the many reasons I wanted to have you on the podcast like, that's our list. Right, the person is listening right now. They're looking to change education. They could do lots of different things, right, but they've chose to be in leadership in a field that is challenging but, right, the leverage is there for generational impact across the world. So, yeah, absolutely, you're in the right place, we've got the right person in the seat and you're speaking to the right people right now. So, what are the other things that I've been thinking through for a little while now? Is it magnified learning? We have these model schools that you can go and you can see what project-based learning looks like, right, I think it's really important to go see it. And then I noticed that all of our model schools currently are doing project-based learning and PLCs they're doing professional learning communities.
Ryan Steuer:It's like hmm, you know that that kind of makes me think. You know, we start to see some of these patterns. So, as you are going around talking through fresh learning communities and again your book is, let's put the C in the PLCs what? What's the secret sauce here in PLC is they're changing school culture and so important to the change process.
Chad Dumas:Yeah, there's so much to back in that question. Yeah, it's a depth that you're asking that question and the place that that comes from. So a few thoughts come to my mind and One is around the notion of, like the title of my book. Right, they can put the C in PLC and of course, for those who are familiar with that term, c stands for community and PLC. So put the community and professional learning community.
Chad Dumas:Many times PLCs are perceived or they've been rolled out as a meeting at the time, as a place, as a team, and the notion of becoming a professional learning community is far more than that. It's. It's who we are as people, as professionals, how we engage with each other. It's the. It's the creation of a whole new culture, and Rick DeBord would call it an ethos, right? So this is, this is who we are, and so the professional learning community concept provides. Create that milieu I love that word that meal you, that culture, for then Innovation happen and things like PPL to really take off.
Chad Dumas:Right, because in a professional learning community we're engaging in ongoing process is a collective inquiry. You know, we're inquiring into our own practice. What am I doing that's working and that's not working? We're inquiring to each other's practice. What are you doing that's working, that's not working to happen. We learn together, right, so we're engaging in these cycles of collective inquiry. And then the action, research. We're taking action, we're learning Because we're learning by doing so. I think the the observation that you make about PBL and the work of PLC is goes hand-in-hand, because that's like the PBL maybe is the, maybe the what happens to advanced student learning, and then PLC is the culture that allows that what to flourish.
Ryan Steuer:Yeah, and we, we see that really great PBL environments have a great culture, right, that's why we want you to go experience it at a model school. So I love your definition of PLC is maybe not definition, but your thoughts around this idea that it's not a meeting that we have. Right, it's, it's this thing that we're becoming and right, yeah, that's awesome. Do you do you? This is a side question, I think I've got these rabbit trails in my head that I'm thinking through is like Do you come against some resistance for that, as you're talking to schools around the country, because you're working with a lot of schools and you know we all want a formula, right, what do I do next? To chat to get better, one, two, three. And I feel like you're gonna come in and say, well, it's not one, two, three, you're ever creating a culture and that's different.
Chad Dumas:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, so I love the word you started out with, like this resistance, so it's. It's fascinating. I think it was. It was pre-pandemic, maybe 2018, 17, something like that. Harvard did a study where they do studies all the time, but with this, this particular study caught my attention, where they asked educators about terms that they ate. I don't know who'd followed this question, but I think it's a wonderful question, like what do you hate? Yeah, and the, the number one Most hated term by educators and all of education, and now there's a lot of terms that we could hate, right, sure, that's right. And the number one key term that educators hated was plc.
Ryan Steuer:Really yeah, because there's a lot of terms that you could hate. There's a lot of buzzwords out there, right, that you could not like Interesting.
Chad Dumas:Yeah, and in my Um perception of why that is so, it was. It was interesting because that was the most hated term. But then, when the researchers probed a little bit around some other questions, teachers found collaboration to be one of the most useful forms of professional development, which is what a plc does, right?
Ryan Steuer:Yeah, that's right.
Chad Dumas:So a lot of the resistance that that I think that I Run into and I think a lot of my colleagues might agree with me is the preconceived notions that we have about plc becomes the lack of clarity of what it is, that we think that if it's a time, it's a place, it's a team it's two o'clock or Wednesday afternoon, or it's my third grade colleagues, right, and what we do is we get together and we fill out a bunch of forms for administration, because our administration it's forms. Or we get together and we shoot the breeze because we're not sure what we're supposed to do, or it's a Grinch session and we get together and we complain about whatever we need, right, and it doesn't help us improve our practice, right. And so that's where I see the greatest Resistance, if you will, is helping people to understand that, whatever the I use the term to decontaminate that. Sometimes we have to decontaminate that term because it has a negative emotional reaction, right. So sometimes I think about, like my wife she would still love hearing this when she listens to the show. So she hates.
Chad Dumas:It's not so long, it's been like 25, 30 years, but she used to hate neurons. You know those Greek sandwiches, okay, because one time, 30, some years ago, she had a neuro and a few hours later she got sick. And there was clearly not a relationship between the two, because we know that. You know, food poisoning doesn't kick in for what? 12 to 24 hours. So whatever caused her sickness was prior to the neuro. But she has this connection between a euro and a bad experience and it took her 30 years to get over that. Right, she had to decontaminate that notion of what a neuro is. And so same thing with PLCs, right? So if I have a negative perception or reaction and experiences with what people call PLC, we have to decontaminate that so that we can then have a positive, more emotionally secure and safe experience with what it actually is.
Ryan Steuer:Yeah, because it's a deep emotional piece, right. It may not even be logical, right, like we might even recognize that. So I feel, like this happens, I'm gonna do some learning for myself here on the podcast. I'm gonna be selfish because I feel like we're starting to get into that with PBL, right, like some people are starting to hear PBL and they're like, well, I don't do PBL, it didn't work. It's like, well, let's define what that means, right? So what are some of your moves that you use when you go into a school? You know that there's gonna be some resistance to this term, plc. So what are some things that you do to, you know, kind of bring people around to open up their eyes?
Chad Dumas:Yeah, so it depends on how visceral of a reaction there is from staff if they're throwing chairs versus yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chad Dumas:So probably the strategy that I use that's been the most effective when it's like a really strong emotional reaction that folks have to the term PLC is, I'll have everybody in the room jot down on a little piece of scratch paper. So I'll have little pieces of scratch paper around the room and everybody take and write down. When I say the term professional learning community, what does it make you think about, what does it make you feel? Just jot down. And people take 30 to 60 seconds to jot down and some people have positive, some people have negative. That's okay, we're just gonna jot it down.
Chad Dumas:And so once they've done that, then what I have people do is physically get up or stand up and reform, just to circle around the room and people then toss those crumple up and toss those feelings or emotions into the center of the room and then go and grab a different kind of and go and grab a different one than theirs. So everybody now has it mixed up. So we're creating some psychologically safe, psychological safety to share with folks and typically what I do at the very beginning when they, when I ask them to write down what they think and feel, also to help them take off and tell Thursdays is to say that we will be sharing these but nobody will know who's is who. So if he's still free to be completely transparent about your thoughts and feelings about it, so now? So now we're in a circle, everybody's got somebody else's, so nobody knows who has said what, and invite people to you know, uncrumple them and read them silently to themselves, and then they ask for books.
Chad Dumas:You know how many, how many people in this room have what you would proceed to be positive associations with the concept. Raise your hand. How many people have negative concepts associated with it? Okay, so now let's hear some of those negative associations, and we'll just hear some. And I kid you not, in one group I was in, there was a teacher and they gave me permission. Later they said I'm really glad we did this and thank you for clarifying, and you can share my story with others. She, she, I kid you not. She said I would rather see puppies killed than attend at PLC.
Ryan Steuer:Wow, there's a visible emotional reaction.
Chad Dumas:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but we got to get that out right, we've got to. You can't just ignore that. We can't do like that. Those emotions will sit there if we don't address them. And so we get them out, and then we can hear the positives. And then what I invite people to do is not take whatever you have, whether it's positive or negative, let's rip them up, drum away and let's start fresh. What year is a professional running? And so now we've taken, we've brought up any any of those emotions and thoughts, we've honored them, cause people have these experiences. So let's honor those previous experiences. And and then physically you know, people had a first of all crumbling it up and throwing it away is is an emotional, like there's a physical, emotional connection there, but then actually physically tearing it up is another one. They're just like okay, so now we're going to start fresh and then we can get into the learning. So so that's, that's been the most powerful way I've got about decontaminating it.
Ryan Steuer:Oh, I love it. It that is powerful. I like that we're acknowledging you know these experiences and we're not saying, hey, you're wrong, or you know you've got wrong about PLC as your whole life, cause that that's not the place that learning starts right and so a lot of great applications there. So let's stay right here. Cause you talk about Google and psychological safety in your book and you know it's kind of this. It seems foundational right To to putting the C into PLCs right, this community building piece. So, as leaders are moving in this direction, do you have some suggestions Like that was a great story, very practical piece that we could use? What are some other things? When you talk about psychological safety in communities, like why is it so important and you know how do we get there?
Chad Dumas:Yeah, yeah. So just some background for those folks who haven't, please, read the book yet, that this is a study that Google conducted, I think, in 2016, where they wanted to find out what what makes a good team. And if folks want to like, no need to read my book, you can Google. I think it's called the Aristotle project and the New York Times did a nice article on it. Then the author was Charles Dew, here D-U-H-I-G-G I think that's how you think about this thing, and so Google looked at 180 teams and wanted to find out what makes a really good team, and, of course, most of our teams. We might hypothesize a number of things right, that a good team is going to consist of people who are experts in the content area. Right, they've got high degree of expertise at the time on a team about coding. A team that has people with high expertise, that's going to be good, right. Or a team of people that get along with each other, people who have high emotional connection with each other, people who bring food to their meaty right.
Ryan Steuer:Yeah, that's right.
Chad Dumas:So so, after this study, they looked and they found what were the best teams, and what they found was none of that was the case. What made for an effective team were two key characters. There were lots of findings, but like two main things that they found from effective teams was number one, the extent to which there was psychological safety on the team. So psychological safety involves me being able to read each other's cues and be able to feel like I'm. It's a safe environment for me to express my own views. And the second was equity of turn taking. So so it's whether or not it's whether or not.
Ryan Steuer:like, I feel like people are listening to me right, and then and I'm reading other people, and then just equity of turn taking is literally like do I get to have a turn right and does everybody get to have a turn? Yeah, yeah.
Chad Dumas:It's not. The meetings aren't dominated by one person and there are one or two people, and one or two people aren't just sitting passively to the whole, but there's a sense of we. So the notion of reading each other's emotional cues is a hard skill to teach. It is doable, but it is a hard skill to teach. Equity of turn taking, though, is so darn easy, right? I mean, yeah, that's what protocols do, right? So when we have protocols in place and processes in place, norms, rules, things like that are very easily really technical skills and tools to help create that psychological safety goes a long way. So, in terms of, like a classroom or a leader thinking about, what are those processes that I have in place to make sure that we have equity of turn taking and we don't have those dominant voices taking over and those voices who sit passively remain passive?
Ryan Steuer:Yeah, I think that's. I think that that study is really important. You highlight that in your book. And just a side note that I loved all the research that was in your book. You're like, here's a good idea, but it's not just my idea, right, here's the research that's behind it and I feel like that study seems really clear to me.
Ryan Steuer:Right, the yes, psychological safety, which seems like an ambiguous term at first, but then it's very worth it. I guess I'm just saying this or kind of like, from the envelope some EQs our emotional elegance is in there. And then protocols, which we love, protocols at Magnify Learning and we always talk about you know, I feel like there's so many just benefits to protocols, so I love there's some research about some of the secret sauce of you know, the equity and turn taking. Yes, so it sounds like our whole goal for PLCs to make this more than just a meeting, right, or a report out for admin. So we're creating psychological safety. Can you give us a few practical tips of how we do that? Or maybe either way, how we want to do it, maybe some practical tips, or like, if it's not going well, how do we kind of start to fix that if it's not going the right direction.
Chad Dumas:Mm-hmm. Yeah, in terms of, like, psychological safety specifically.
Ryan Steuer:Yeah, I think so. I think it just seems so important to me. I think about, you know, the culture we've created at Magnify Learning, the model schools where it's going well. Sometimes we're having some trouble trying to express that to other people and I think psychological safety is part of that and for us it's so internal to what we do, just the respect of personal and professional. I think it's helpful to maybe get some tips or just kind of talk through that a little bit. I'm thinking about maybe a team that has been doing PLCs and they don't like it because it's not going well. How do you get in there and say, hey, let's create some psychological safety, yep no, I love there.
Chad Dumas:So this is awesome because this is like you open the door for me to like promo my next book.
Ryan Steuer:Yeah, oh perfect, that's right.
Chad Dumas:Yeah, let's do it Because this is exactly the topic of my next book, that series. It's said to be published I don't have an exact date, but sometime next summer, summer of 2024, solution Tree is publishing it and the working title right now is the Teacher, teen, leader Handbook. And then the subtitle is Simple Go Two Ways to Get More Done in Less Time with Greater Joy, and so, and it walks through the process of starting, like where do you get started? How do you get momentum? And what do you start? You're gonna get some roadblocks, and then we're refinements, and so that's kind of like the way it goes. So like your question of okay, so how do you get started? Or there's some roadblocks, what do you do?
Chad Dumas:So, first of all, there's like technical skills that have to be developed or can be developed, and that's, I think, what people tend to really hang their hat on, and there are also adaptive mindsets and understanding of responsibilities, and so that's where I start in the book is. So, first of all, what are the responsibilities of a team leader, a teacher team leader, and that I think it also applies to the principle of leading the school right, and so in my understanding of the research and my experience, there's three main responsibilities for a teacher team leader. We need to be clear about these and they are hierarchical, they're prioritized. The number one responsibility of a teacher team leader is to create psychological safety. Number one, number two and number three will not exist if you don't have number one. Number two, excuse me is to build capacity so that when you're gone, others can pick it up right. So it's not a one person. Show that this isn't us, it's a team. And then the third responsibility is the one everybody thinks is the first, but the third responsibility is the third in priority.
Chad Dumas:Let's get stuff done. But the getting stuff done is not gonna happen if you don't have psychological safety and not build capacity right. So that's like the first place to start with the work is what are my? What's my frame? My frame getting stuff done as important as that is, we gotta make sure that it's psychologically safe first. Now, that doesn't mean we're just gonna play games and go on retreats. No, no, no, no. That's not the kind of psychological safety I'm talking about. So that's where it starts. And then there's some line sets and assumptions that also go into the work, and so, for example, things like assuming that people are doing the best that they can.
Ryan Steuer:Yes, right, that's a great norm.
Chad Dumas:That's just like too many times we assume the other than the best of others, and so, as a teacher team leader, I think the human being, we have to assume the best and others and that they're doing the best they can. We also have to understand that behavior communicates, right, with kids, with adults, right. And so if an adult is coming into a meeting space and they're disengaging with their arms crossed and like they're not just being obstinate, they're communicating something. What are they communicating? They're probably communicating that this meeting isn't impactful for them, it's not helpful for them, right? And so we need to understand that they're not. They're not just, they don't have a personal of indebted against you, yeah, that's right. And so there's some other mindsets and assumptions that really helped advance the work, and then we can get into the technical skills, and so the technical skills really are then fairly straightforward. So things like have an agenda. I've written down, have it set the week before, right. So the meeting before we're going to set the agenda, the last five minutes, we're going to set the agenda. We're going to have norms in place and we're going to make sure everybody has a voice in those norms, and we're going to review those norms every meeting. We're going to have clear outcomes for all of our meetings.
Chad Dumas:I sometimes joke. I say you know there's three most important things about any meeting. The first most important thing is having clear outcomes. You've got to have clear out. Everybody wants to know why they're in that meeting. The second most important thing for every meeting have clear outcomes. People need to know what they're going to be doing. And the third most important thing is to have clear outcomes. So, like these are some then, technical skills that can start to help to create that psychological safety, to build capacity and enable the work to get there.
Ryan Steuer:Yeah, that's great. I'm excited for the new book Me too. So summer, summer 2024, right.
Chad Dumas:Yeah.
Ryan Steuer:So we should have you back on so you can talk through that book some more. What I love about the process is that you're creating Chad for people is that they start with the adaptive portion, right, like there's mindset that really needs to be there, and the technical portion of you know, here's the things you need to do. And for those people that are just like the get stuff done people and I might get stuff, like I want to get things done like oh yeah, right, otherwise you're probably not listening to this podcast, honestly. So, but in order to get more done, you need to have psychological safety, right, you need to have, you know, you need to have community where you have protocols and you can build capacity for these things.
Ryan Steuer:I'm going to poke at that second one, the build capacity, because your current book, where we're building community in PLC, is you've got this really interesting idea, again, research based. I appreciate and positively say this, that I love your geekiness around the research that you put in there Like it's positive. You say that charisma is not necessary for a leader.
Chad Dumas:Yeah.
Ryan Steuer:I think it's a really interesting take, again, research based that we've got some leaders that maybe you're not the outspoken right Charismatic leader and we know that we also have some movements that we've done some really good work at schools and then the principal leaves the linchpin and it's gone. I could literally grind the next day. So those charismatic leaders don't want that to happen, right, they want it to go on. And those that are not charismatic leaders also like systematic portions. So am I right? Is that in that build capacity piece? I mean you're talking as a teacher leader, but in your current book it's like that leadership position. Yes, you talk through that a little bit.
Chad Dumas:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's this idea of charisma for those who have it, like you said, it's a weight maybe to recognize that you've got to do so you can just rely on your charisma. You've got this set up systems and processes so that when you're gone, those processes will continue. So that's on that end. On the other end, for those of us, like myself, who don't have charisma, it's like a weight off our shoulders. It's like, oh, taking deep breath, right, it's okay, you don't need to be charismatic. That's wonderful for those who are. For those of you who aren't, don't try to be something you're not. You don't need to be charismatic. Lean into the strengths that you have around building capacity and make sure that you do like that and don't try to be something that you're not.
Ryan Steuer:Yeah, it's such a strong message, I think, for both ends, and I've seen that where you have the charismatic leader, that in this case is probably a negative example, where going to a room, everybody has to end up leaving and then at the end you're like wait a minute, but what are we actually doing? I thought we were supposed to do this thing and now we're doing a new thing. We've all heard the educational fad. You're just waiting for it to cycle through. Actually, that happened with PBL, my mentor teacher. At that time I said I think that this PBL thing, I think it's got legs he goes. I'm going to wait this one out. You give it three years.
Ryan Steuer:Nobody's going to be talking about it, because it wasn't a systematic piece. It was all based on charisma and I've maybe got some charisma in some of those arenas. For me it was such a check to be like I don't want this to be based on my personality. I want it to work for the people that I'm serving. So for me there's that piece. And then I know some really great leaders that aren't going to work the room, they're going to sit in the back even, but when they get to their people and they love their staff. They've got a plan and their staff knows that, so they don't need that charismatic leader. So I appreciate the permission that you give to both sides.
Chad Dumas:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Ryan Steuer:So I don't want to let you off the hook yet. We'll do one more question and then we'll talk about how we can connect. You've got a lot of checklists in your book that I found really helpful because they were things that if you just asked me in conversation, hey Ryan, you know, do you know how PLCs work? Yeah, yeah, I do. And then it'd be like, well, do you know how to build a community? Yep, but then your questions get really specific and then I have to rate myself and I felt like when I actually had to do that and write it down, I had to check myself a little bit.
Ryan Steuer:I guess that's what a checklist does, right, it made me get specific about some things, and what I liked about it is I found some things very specifically that I did not know about PLCs, and then I could go and research those or I could work on that skill. Why do you have the checklist in there? As the author, I'd like to hear from you kind of your experience and why they're in there. As the reader, I found them helpful, but why do you have those in your books? Yeah, yeah.
Chad Dumas:So they are all focused on the individual, the individual person of reading it to self-assess against their own knowledge. Really, it's on knowledge of the different aspects of each gel to what principles need to know, but then also starting to think about okay, so now how does this start to translate to practice? So the reason I had them in there was really twofold. One is so that we can succinctly pull everything together from that chapter in a one-pager right. And so here's like, if you want everything together, here it is. And then, second of all, to be able to then self-assess and start moving towards bridging that knowing-doing gap. So we can go from it's in my head, I know what it is, to now am I practicing this? Which then there's. I also wrote an action guide that really is focused on translating that knowledge into practice.
Ryan Steuer:I would just say thank you. I think you were successful in that. Like I said, it's not just a summary of the chapter. I think it's a challenge right at the end of each chapter and we probably do this. This is a funny thing I often bring up is that we would have our students do this and then, when we need to do it, it's like, well, I don't need to do the checklist. I mean, I got it all right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's funny. We need to play chess.
Ryan Steuer:So I fought that with your book and I was like, yep, this is super solid. So, chad, I want people to connect with you. We're gonna put in the show notes, we're gonna put your book with the CBAC and PLCs. If leaders are listening, this is the book that I recommend. If they're in PLCs and PPL, I love it. I appreciate your integrity off camera or off the podcast. I think you're doing really great work and I appreciate the adaptive and the technical piece. If you've been in this deeper learning world long enough, you can tell really quickly where people gravitate towards right away. Like, do they have the right mindset to give you technical advice? And I think that you give really specific technical advice from the right mindset, which I think is rare. So I appreciate that. So, books coming out summer new book is coming out summer 2024. What's the best way for us to stay connected so that people know when that's coming out?
Chad Dumas:Yeah, so excuse me I do have a Facebook and Twitter and a website and all that. Probably the simplest way is I do have a tiny URL, tinyurlcom, and then just slash, put the C in PLC. No spaces or dots or items or anything. Just put the C in PLC and then that'll get folks to my page where, on that page, I have some free resources for the book so that if you whether you have the book or not you can download those and take a look at it, as well as materials for different trainings I have, and that'll get you anywhere you wanna go. So the tinyurlcom slash, put the C in PLC.
Ryan Steuer:Awesome, chad. Thanks for being on the podcast for this conversation. I really appreciate it. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. All right, visionary leaders, plcs and PBL work really well together. They're structures. You know, if PBL is your instructional model, plc is this continuous improvement model, and if you're trying to figure out where to start or if you're humming along, I would still recommend that you grab Chad's book or bring them in to talk through the mindset and the technical pieces of your PLCs to make sure that you've got that community dialed in, you've got psychological safety and you've got this continuous improvement piece. It's great for adults and we need it for our students as well. So let's do it as you do that. You are going to lead inspired. You're going to engage your learners. You're going to tackle boredom. You're going to transform your classrooms.
Ryan Steuer:Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the PBL Simplified Podcast. I appreciate you and honor that you tune in each week. Would you please take two minutes to leave a rating and a review? When you leave a review, it lets the next person know that this is a podcast worth listening to. When they go into their player and search project-based learning, and PBL Simplified popped up, when they see those reviews, they know that high quality, visionary leaders are listening, so they tune in too and they can find their way into the PBL journey. Thank you so much for leaving a review. Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate you.