In this episode, we talk with Mike some of the leadership issues they face and how to deal with them. We also chat about personal and spiritual health of us as leaders and how we can bring that to the culture of our churches.
In this episode, we talk with Mike some of the leadership issues they face and how to deal with them. We also chat about personal and spiritual health of us as leaders and how we can bring that to the culture of our churches.
Transcript of Podcast by Multiply Network
Created to champion church multiplication, provide learning and inspire new disciple-
making communities across Canada
2019 – Mike Miller
Paul Fraser: Welcome to the Multiply Network podcast, a podcast created to champion church multiplication, provide learning and inspire new disciple-making communities across Canada.
Hi there. Welcome to the Multiply Network podcast. My name is Paul Fraser and I am feeling thankful today, maybe it’s because we just came out of the Thanksgiving weekend, feeling the effects of turkey and pumpkin pie. I decided to do a thankfulness list. So here goes. I’m thankful for family, thankful for health, thankful for NFL Fantasy Football and I’m also thankful that NHL hockey is back on.
And I’m also thankful for friends like Mike Miller. Him and his wife Nance have planted Nova Church in Halifax. They just celebrated two years and I sat down with Mike this week to talk about leadership issues, their constant state of restructuring for growth, we talked about discipleship, balance in life and ministry. So we’ve got a lot of great things to say so sit back, relax and enjoy this interview. It’s coming up right now.
Q. I’m really happy to have Mike Miller of Nova Church, Halifax. Him and his wife Nance are co-pastors at Nova Church. I’m excited to have you back on the podcast. Welcome, Mike.
Mike Miller:
A. It’s so good to be here. You are one of my favourite people. I love the podcasts and I subscribe. It is always a good time whenever I get more of Paul in my life.
Q. Hey, c’mon. Not to make your head too puffy, like in the Multiply Network podcast history, your podcast has the most downloads.
A. I know why.
Q. Because it was the first one?
A. (Laughter) Yes, and they never came back. It was terrible. They never came back again. Oh man, that was awful.
Q. No. It was actually so good and we’re checking in with you now two years into the launch of Nova Church. You just celebrated your two-year anniversary. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about that?
A. Yes, we just celebrated two years so we can no longer use the months, like when people have kids and your kid is twenty-four months. At some point you’ve got to stop using months so we’re in Year Three. It still feels like we have a terrible two-year old sometimes.
Q. The terrible twos. Yes. I’m just wondering if that’s a real thing in church planting.
A. Sometimes. But it is also fun because the personality comes out and they get to play organized sports. So there are a lot of memories and you’re not just like a baby-sitter. Yes, it's over two years and we’re going and still trying to figure out what we’re doing. We’re not sure we exactly know what we’re doing but we parent like we pastor, we’re kind of figuring it out as we go. So far it has definitely been an adventure.
Q. Yes. I love you and Nance and how you guys lead so well together and to co-lead and honour each other and how your gifts complement, it is really cool. I wish Halifax --
(Laughter)
A. That’s the healthy version.
Q. That’s the healthy version of Halifax. I wish Halifax was closer but I just love you guys. And thanks for taking time to be on the podcast. We’re going to talk about lots of different things today. But our focus for this month and maybe we’ll use this as a launching pad, our focus this month is discipleship.
I am wondering ---
Jesus didn’t ask us to go into all the world and make crowds, even though he attracted so many crowds everywhere he went. He said no, that’s not the secret sauce. It’s discipleship.
Your church has seen some great growth. How have you guys transitioned and developed pipelines or pathways for discipleship?
A. Great question. I don’t think it’s a problem to solve. I think it is a tension to manage.
Q. Right.
A. We always say we pastor like we parent. Parenting really is discipleship because making the question a little longer, some of the problems we see with transition and discipleship down the road is that you have people competing, so-called fathers and sons. But real fathers never compete with their sons because they want their sons and daughters to have a better marriage, a better house, better finances, more influence than they had. A true father wants them to do better.
With discipleship and parenting we want our kids to have a better marriage than we have, better finances and more adventure, better character, more giftings. So navigating all that is we’re going through that and we’re trying to find the systems and work through that. Everything is about helping people be better than when we found them. And if that’s your motive it goes into everything. So it’s not a competition. It is always what can we give you and elevate you above ourselves. And if you elevate people ---
We all have people we want to follow. Who can we listen to, the people that encouraged us, the people that mentored us, we felt like they wanted to push us higher.
I golfed with you and your dad. Your dad was not jealous of your golf game. Why?—Because every father wants their son to be better than they were.
Q. Which I was better.
A. Yes, you were. (Laughter)
That’s the heart of kingdom. Right. And Jesus said you will do greater things than I do. He wasn’t like whoa, whoa, whoa, that’s my thing. I think if that is your heart, if we start learning these things, that’s the heart behind a lot of this stuff, even just for health and growth and for systems.
Q. Yes. So do you build it into a program or is it more culture?
A. It’s both.
Q. Okay.
A. I think you have to have guardrails and systems because if it is not a program, it’s a personality. You can’t transition a personality. So you could be loving, a leader could be loving and intentional in discipleship but unless that is in a program at some point ---
That’s why we have scripture. Right? It wasn’t just Jesus is going to lead this thing and when he’s leaving you guys figure it out. He taught us. Jesus could have come, died on the cross on the weekend and then left. The Holy Spirit wouldn’t have come. Why was he here three years? He was building systems.
Q. Um-hmm.
A. That’s why he was here for three years. The cross didn’t take three years. The systems did. So you have to build a system. So we’re building those systems intentionally. That’s from the front door to what it looks like for ministry. There has to be something that works that, if I’m not there this week, or if I’m not there in fifteen years, that the systems are built in. That’s intentional.
Q. Yes. That’s really important. And I’m sure over the two years ---
I was just on a multipliers Zoom call recently and that came up, the restructuring and how often, even in the first two, three, four years of your church plant, you have to restructure. We were talking about that a little bit before the call.
Why don’t you tell us where you’re at, what you are thinking about these days as your church is restructuring for growth and for the next.
A. Great questions. Again, we always say we pastor like we parent. It’s very similar. When we had Josh, our first-born, we did everything together. We would go get groceries together or, you know, then when we had Maddie, our second child we went to man-on-man defense ---
Q. Laughter
A. And with three kids you go to the zone. You have to change your systems. The heart is the same.
So we even figured out ---
We started ---
The model that I like is, you know, people don’t want to be in the loop of information. They want a seat at the table. So we made a really big table and we just threw everybody around it. So I think we had twenty-one different ministries at the start. And again, not all with the same level of influence like you would have kids’ ministry, which is influential and parking lot, which is not really involving large groups of people. But we were all given a seat at this big figurative table and we would talk about schedule and heart and tough questions and our goals, and sermons.
That was great at the beginning because it really created this ‘we’re building something.’
As we started to grow now where we’re at is we’re actually streamlining more because what happens is you can’t keep that up as you grow because it starts bogging you down. It’s the same way as me and my wife would go with our son to go get groceries together. When we first got married we did everything together. But once you have a couple of kids and one needs the bathroom and one is having a nap it’s better to go, okay, you go. I’ll stay. We started separating and streamlining.
Q. Where we’re at now as we enter Year Three we are actually streamlining to make it more effective because you can’t keep this thing level with everyone around the table and be as effective because now you no longer fit in one room. We actually have multiple rooms in the house. So you are starting to give away authority. If you delegate responsibility without authority you bring frustration so we keep delegating authority, so there are now meetings we’re not a part of but before when we were leading the church we were part of meetings. Now it’s like you have authority, you run that, and you start going to different rooms in the same house and we’re not in the same room. So just structurally we’re starting to streamline.
Our leaders’ meetings would have thirty people. Now we’re cutting them down to fifteen. We’ve added team nights so we can add more people in but we’re starting to reorganize and restructure them that way.
Q. That’s fantastic. Delegating authority, giving it away, do you feel like it’s freeing you up at all?
A. Yes, but again there is also danger in anything. Delegation without investigation is an abomination. And the problem is I have no problem giving away authority. I just sometimes fail in investigating. So it’s this marriage between delegate and investigate. So we delegate because again you can’t transition a personality. That’s why our faith wasn’t built on Jesus’ personality. It was built on his presence and his principles.
Q. Yes.
A. So our leader left and the church grew. So if you don’t let go of authority ---
Jesus said, “I give you authority.” He gave us the Holy Spirit. You have to give away authority or you cannot grow.
Q. Yes.
A. So we’re in that season now where we delegate it and then we investigate it. How are you? What do you need? Let’s change course, let’s correct. We’re at the stage now of transitioning some leaders out, others are at their capacity or maybe they feel like a change of season, or maybe some aren’t the right fit. I got you to a certain level. I can’t get you to the next level. The Honda Civic can get your family of two. But once you have a family of five you’ve got to move to an Odyssey Van.
Q. Right.
A. It’s practical things; delegating. And now what we do is we delegate and we’re just investigating. Delegate and investigate. That seems to be our cycle right now.
Q. Yes, that accountability piece is huge. I think, obviously not micro-managing, I think people don’t want to be micro-managed. But I think there is this aspect that people want to know that they are being cared for, the investigation isn’t like, you know, I’m coming in to examine your work. It’s like no, I’m here to help and support because I think sometimes what we tend to do as leaders is just to give away jobs. You do this job. You do that job. But I like how you framed it using the word authority. That is a helpful word, I think.
One of the things that church planters wrestle with is permanent space, permanent space for office, permanent space for the church. When do you go there? What is the philosophy behind it? That’s something that you guys wrestled through. You have some office space now. Maybe just help us to understand how you got to that point.
A. Yes. I think we are in a wonderful season where we never had more chance to grow and learn globally. Paul, we’re not that old but when we were growing up we would compare or maybe be able to assess the church down the street, I guess in comparing learning things. We have a wide open window into any church in the world right now, to their social media, to their podcasts or if they have video services. We can learn a lot. The negative of that is we can put ourselves into either comparison or even trying to run in someone else’s track. When we were growing up there was that term ‘competing with the Jones,’ the mysterious neighbours. They’ve got two cars. They went to Florida on vacation.
Q. Yes.
A. You’ve got to run in your lane. And for us navigating what do we need and what do we need most. It’s the whole prioritizing ---
Again, we parent and we pastor the same way. We might need winter tires and the kids might need shoes more than we need a vacation.
Q. Um-hmm.
A. So the neighbours might go to Florida but there is no point going to Florida if we need a new roof. So it’s a whole time of assessing. What do we need and what do we have? For us space, again, it’s culture. The Bible says fathers don’t provoke your children. I have seen churches that are established, and I get it, they are trying to think like church plants. They are trying to bring some revitalization and some life. But you can see them trying to do maybe the same thing as maybe a church plant but they don’t get the ‘why’.
So for example we just did our second birthday as a church and we moved to Saturday night church. We had church on Saturday nights. That sounds cool. It sounds great. But it’s challenging to families with young kids. Kids are going to bed at seven. Our service started at six. But I’ve seen other churches go let’s move to a Saturday night. Let’s change our Sunday morning to a Saturday night and people revolt because you are provoking them.
The reason why we did it is because our venue, the actual “The Wiggles”, yellow, blue, red and purple Wiggles, Captain Feathersword, were in our venue and we had to move to Saturday night.
What is important for us is we always go after the why. What do we need and from there ---
Q. Yes.
A. So for us it is not a venue. We don’t want to be venue-poor. We don’t have the money for a venue. We can rent a venue for what we need without putting the money in. We’re not paying utilities six days a week. We’re paying for one day a week. So it’s about critical needs. What do we need? We do this as a family. We sit down and go we’ve been running and gunning. We need a movie night. Other weeks it’s no. We all need to go clean our rooms, mow the lawn, do laundry. As a family we’re always like where are we at and what do we need.
I always say it this way, Paul. The best thing is not always the right thing.
So for example, I’ll use you. You are travelling a lot. You are really making some inroads and helping people with church planting and growth and multiplication. You’ll come home and the best thing might be when your kids are all in the same house, let’s have a salad, a healthy meal, let’s get in bed early. But if you’ve been on the road and they haven’t seen you, the right thing is to order pizza, watch a movie and stay up late.
Q. Um-hmm.
A. As a church you’re always going what do we need right now. So for us mostly money on a party as a church or a community event when we could put it in savings for a building. It’s the whole thing of what do we need right now.
Right now we don’t need a building. We need to put it into people. So it is always assessing where we’re at and what do we need right now.
Q. Yes. You did eventually ---
Like you are leasing the space or renting the space for your offices. How has that helped? Because I think there are some planters out there going well, we don’t need an office space, or maybe we do, I don’t know. What led you to that decision for the office space?
A. Great question. For us it was an evolution. We are very much get out of the office, get where people are. It’s all about why. Everything has a motive and sometimes ---
Q. Yes, I agree.
A. I’ve seen in my own life in churches where the office was a place to hide. Office does not equate work. And we met in coffee shops and in condo common rooms and in houses and that worked. We got to a place of capacity where it felt like we were chasing people and trying to organize. We realized at the stage now, again stream-lining, where we need a place for people to come to us. The analogy we used was me and my wife were like the engine on a train. We needed another engine half-way back among the cars. And if we stopped – again, great people around us – but it felt like if we stopped the train wouldn’t stop but it definitely would stop pulling and start to coast. We needed something in the middle of the train to keep the momentum. We needed a place to organize, structure, rally people and again learning from other churches. That has been important for us. So two years in, running hundreds of people, hundreds of thousands of dollars in budget, we never had an office space at all.
Q. Yes.
A. Staples was our printing. We met in living rooms and coffee shops. But it came to a place that it wasn’t what was comfortable or I would like to have an office. It was what is effective so that people can meet without us. So the goal was we want to walk in on a Wednesday night and go what’s going on in here. Oh, small group training. Fantastic. So again it is about structure and what can help be an engine midway back to help momentum that is not based on us.
Q. Yes. That’s good. I saw the Instagram pictures and how you guys renovated it. It looked like it was a good team building time as well, getting everybody in there.
A. It’s a small space, it’s a really small space. But practically we rent a storage unit for our gear. We combined it with this to cut down on the budget. It is not a big space. It is a really small space. We have been renovating it and making it our own. But again, we didn’t want to put money into a building where ---
I’ll be practical. We couldn’t supply coffee on Sunday mornings, which is relational. So it’s not a great office. It’s not a huge office but it is ours.
Q. Yes.
A. And I think we have had eight group meetings in the last nine days. So again, it was the right time for us. The right thing at the wrong time is wrong. This thing a year ago would have been wrong for us.
Q. Yes. One of the things we chatted about before that I thought was really interesting, just to transition a little bit to, you know, the practical side of things. Obviously there is a practical side to church planting. But there is also the spiritual side to church planting. I want to transition a little bit there. We talked a little bit before the call today about this idea of when you are starting out it’s like systems and structures, and da, da, da, da, systems and structures and you build it. And sometimes you can -- not intentionally -- cut maybe what the spirit is saying and what the spirit is doing in your life and in the life of the church.
How have you managed that balance between spirit and truth?
A. Great question. Again, we are all a product of our environment. Right. So we always kind of go to the other end of the spectrum if we come to a place where we become very legalistic. We’re wearing suits and ties and it’s amazing how you almost want to rebel, not even rebel, but you feel like you throw the baby and the bath water out and you’re wearing the deepest v-necks and the biggest rips. Or if you were in a place that had no structure and no schedule and you showed up whenever you want, it’s like you are craving structure and office time.
Again, sometimes we use the Holy Spirit as an excuse for lack of planning.
Q. Um-hmm.
A. So the spirit is just going to move. Well, the spirit of God is one of the most organized people. You read scripture and Creation and everything was organized into its orbit and rotation and every season and planning. To be spirit-led is not to be chaotic. It is in order and structured. So for us we had systems. But again it is in spirit and in truth. It’s that balance of going back and forth; what is our energy, what is our why, making room for saying God, what do you want to do in this and how do you want to bring that structure.
For us it is getting things off the ground. But again the most valuable resource we have is not a building, it is not our Instagram, it is not our budget. It is your spirit. And an Excel spreadsheet and an Instagram post will never feed your spirit.
Q. Um-hmm.
A. I believe being spirit-led is not being unorganized. I believe God can breathe into your schedule six months before you need it. We’re even seeing that in our church. We’ll have a kids’ curriculum that is a boxed program. I don’t even know what it is. I’ll be preaching the exact same thing as the kids’ program. They’ll go by the way, we just did the exact same thing. We’ve had that happen five or six times this last year where the spirit is organizing and breathing things. So for us it is about not being a slave to a program. It's going God, what are you saying, but understanding God wants to bring order. God wants to bring structure and navigating that tension between those two.
Q. I think that’s a good tension to be managed, that tension between structure and spirit. And you know this. We are both in our forties and those that are listening who are older know this too. Life is mostly both-and. There’s lots of things that are either/or but a lot of it is both-and.
A. Yes.
Q. And we need the spirit moving in our churches, calling people to Christ and just even for you personally, how has the spirit helped you as a leader because, you know, it’s easy to lose your spiritual intensity, life, in the busy-ness, especially in a church plant.
What are some things you have done to make sure your spiritual life is still thriving and vital?
A. Great question. Again, I don’t know if there’s an answer but it is a discussion.
Q. Yes.
A. I honestly believe the greatest resource we have is our spirit. I honestly believe that. I don’t believe pastoring is the hardest job in the world. We like to play that card and show our scars but I’ve done construction in the winter and if you’ve done paving in Alberta in the summer, if you’ve done retail at Christmas, pastoring is not the toughest job in the world. It’s not.
But there is a weight to it.
Q. Um-hmm.
A. And the most valuable resource we have is our spirit. It is the only job I know you don’t separate; it’s like you go to work and you come home. Your home life affects your church. Your mental state affects your state. Your marriage, if you are married, affects the church. You can be a great lawyer and be a horrible husband and they don’t need to touch each other. It’s not the same in the kingdom of God. That’s why this job is different. So I’m thankful I’m at an age ---
I don’t know if I was secure enough in my early thirties but even in my mid-forties now, I thank God for the inspiration of other churches through Instagram, through friendships, through websites, but I don’t feel the comparison. I don’t feel the competition. I don’t feel the drive. It’s always God, what are you saying to me? What are you saying to us? It’s that spirit-led. I get inspired by other places. I can glean ideas from other places but it is honestly God, what are you saying to me. I am so thankful I don’t feel pressure to compete. I don’t feel pressure for numbers or for ---
I feel so far behind in some things. I feel un-driven in some ways, in a healthy way, so I don’t feel like I’m competing with anyone. I feel like That’s a great idea but I don’t feel it’s for us. It’s Spirit, what are you saying right now?
Q. Um-hmm.
A. Me and my wife we always say we pastor the way we parent. And we never parented based on the neighbours. It wasn’t well, they went on that trip or they got a play set. What do we need? Just because the neighbour’s kids play hockey doesn’t mean our kids play hockey. It is what is your gifting? We’re trying to just look at our church, ask God, without being super-spiritual, we’re not doing forty-day fasts. I’m not against that. I’m not talking that. I’m just saying God, I’m looking at our kids and in this case I’m looking at our church going where are we at. What do we need? Sometimes it is slow down. Other times it is more let’s push. That’s what parenting is like. We feel it’s like God’s spirit, speak to us. Sometimes it doesn’t make sense. Sometimes it’s like no, we need to slow down right now. If people are pushing us, let’s do this, let’s go multi-site, let’s go multi-service and we’re like we don’t feel that. So it’s really trying to have the voice of God, going what do we need right now. That’s your goal as shepherd. It’s not to be the preacher.
Your goal as a parent is what do my kids need to grow? Sometimes it’s early bed time. Other times it is music lessons and sometimes it is adventure.
Q. Um-hmm.
A. And for us it is what do we need as a church. And you can only do that if you’re not starving yourself. So it’s how am I doing and then from there when you feel like you’re in a good place, ask how is the church doing. And then you navigate what the church needs based on what God says.
That is honestly and as deep as it goes with us. It’s always that whole where are we at and what do we need. And we do that weekly and we do that on the calendar. So far it has worked for our kids. It is working for our marriage and it is working for our church.
Q. Yes. So good. You are right in saying that ministry can be hard to define where the boundaries are. Because you are right, what happens at home affects what happens at the church, what happens at the church affects what happens at home; the spiritual, the relational, the emotional, the mental. It can kind of all fit together. So maybe help some younger leaders out there and maybe some older ones with some of the boundaries that you are trying to set up. I’m not saying you are perfect, but what are some of those things that you are noticing now, a couple of years into the church plant. I feel like pre-launch you’re going a hundred and ten miles an hour.
A. Yes.
Q. You know, get stuff out the door and then you get to launch and it slows down ever so slightly, maybe a hundred and eight. And then you are still flying.
A. Yes.
Q. Two years in, you know, Sunday to Sunday, the grind, pulling stuff together, planning, listening to the spirit of God, working through restructuring, all those things, where are your boundaries in this?
A. I think everything in life has rhythm. The older I get you start to learn your body, your spirit, your family, like you can’t drive a hundred miles an hour forever. You can’t. The engine just will not take it. And there are seasons in life. The Bible talks about seasons. You look at Jesus’ ministry; seasons. He was hidden for most of his earthly life. He was hidden. We talk about this but he was hidden. And I think it is understanding seasons. And that’s the challenge I believe in this Instagram world is we see people’s highlights and it motivates our accelerator and we think I’ve just got to keep going.
You’ve got to know your seasons. I’m at that stage. I’m like no, there are seasons and there are ‘go’ times, natural ‘go’ times. There are natural things like Easter and Christmas and there are other things God puts on your heart. But rest is holy.
Q. Um-hmm.
A. We always say this at home. Rest is holy: get some. So boundaries ---
Sometimes we use boundaries as an excuse not to work. It’s like well no, I can’t do that. Sometimes boundaries mean you are going 24-7, pushing for that conference, trying to get this off the ground. Boundaries isn’t 9-5. Boundaries is knowing hey, am I okay, are we okay, what do we need. As you get going, as you launch, when you’re building a house you are trying to make it in a certain time so you don’t lose your permit. You are working twenty-hour days. But then you get a rhythm. It is understanding the rhythms of your life and your team and there are seasons of ‘run’ and seasons of ‘walk’. We even tell our team when we walk don’t you run. And we have people that have other ministries or other jobs and we’re like listen, guys, there’s going to be seasons of running. When we’re not running, maximize. We have some people who are like hey, I’m going to go help this church and do this conference. I’m like that’s fine.
Even as a speaker I do travel and stuff. I understand. But when it’s running season don’t be tired. So when there’s a non-running season catch your breath. So boundaries ---
We’ve protected a day off and there’s been times when we’ve had not to do that and that’s fine, crises and people’s health. But we’re a big ---
Like Mondays for us we call it Miller Monday. Sometimes it’s mowing the lawn, errands, it’s not always date day and cheesecake and coffee shops. Sometimes it’s laundry. But we try to keep ---
And again, someone goes through a tragedy, it’s not ---
You can’t say we’re protecting this day. But generally it is catch your breath and learning those boundaries and putting priorities. We live a very boring life most of the time. Intentionally we’re home. We have supper together. Understanding physical boundaries of both rest and figuring those things out and then protecting your church. We tell people they mean more to us for who they are than what they do. That sounds nice until you need them to do something and they go you know what, they have been going too hard and doing too much.
Q. Yes.
A. And to actually take a lesser quality product, if I can use that term, because they mean more. If you treat people like they are valuable they will die for you and charge mountains for you.
Q. Yes.
A. So we’ve actually lowered quality on things to protect people. Saying that when we push them we’ll go it’s ‘go’ time, they will charge mountains for you. So understanding boundaries and health.
You know Paul, when you’re skiing, you fall down and you’re like am I all right, you start patting yourself all over, I think almost daily as a church and as an individual I’m like are we good. Where do we ---
What do we need right now? And what you need may not be what you want.
Q. Um-hmm.
A. Sometimes it is rest and sometimes it is pushing it. So it is always assessing, figuring that out as a church and as individuals.
Q. Self-awareness is huge in this process. What have you found helpful for your self-awareness? Is it those rest days where you spend a day just reflecting, or is it paying attention to emotions? Like for you because you have been in this leadership game for a while and you’ve got great wisdom, maybe help us understand ---
How do you figure out self-awareness?
A. Well, being married helps because if you’re not self-aware, your spouse knows.
Q. Yes. Ask them!
A. And your kids know.
Q. Yes.
A. Your kids know when you are grumpy or when you’re good. For me it is always about motive. So why do I feel the urgency to move on something?
Q. Right.
A. I always admire these people that just walk slow, not in a lazy way. It feels like they are never stressed. We’ve got a couple of people in our church. They make great police officers. Like, have you ever called a paramedic? They show up and they have no urgency. They are just very calculated, very calm.
Q. Yes.
A. I’ve called paramedics for people I love deeply and I’m like talking fast, moving fast, and I’m like can you just move fast. Why? — Because they are in control.
Q. Yes.
A. They are calculated. I realized an urgent need is a dangerous need. And a hungry need is a dangerous need.
Q. Yes.
A. Why do I want to react to something? The best leaders I know don’t react, they respond. They tried to trigger Jesus into something, to trap him. He didn’t fly off the handle. Even in the temple he was calculated.
Q. Oh, yes.
A. So for me when I feel like a reaction, whether it be to rest or to defend myself or to calm down I’m like ---
The older I get – I’m still learning – why does that trigger me? That’s what the kids always use. You’re triggered.
Q. Yes.
A. Why am I triggered by that? When in doubt, stop. For me that is important. Because motive is everything. Am I trying to defend myself? Am I trying to prove I’m good at something? So when in doubt stop. And more times than not it is the best decision. Just wait. Figure out why and be calculating. I’m learning that.
Even as a church. Like why are you starting a second service? Because someone else did. Why do you want to start another campus? You heard another church is going in there? What is your motive? Wait. Check your motives. Check your heart. You know the Christian joke: Darling, check yourself before you wreck yourself.
Q. Laughter.
A. For me it is just kind of stop and think what is driving this.
Q. Or what is driving you? Right. What is driving you? Is it a need to perform? Is it a need for affirmation? Yes.
A. Compete with the church on Instagram that launched a year behind you? And it seems like they are a year ahead of you? What is your motive? Motive is everything.
Q. Yes. Well, you could parent your kids and have the same action but it could be motivated out of faith or it could be motivated out of fear.
A. Yes.
Q. And it makes a difference, even though you’re like I’m going to speak to you about this and this is the action you need to take. But it is because of fear and it breeds the wrong result long term. ‘Why’ is so important.
A. Everything is why. What is the heart behind it? You know feelings and thoughts have a presence. That’s why you can walk into someone’s house for dinner and it’s tense. They are saying the right things but there is something off here. They may have had a fight before you walked in the door.
Q. Yes.
A. And you can give someone advice but if you have a disdain for them or you are frustrated by them, thoughts have a presence. So as a leader the most valuable resource is not our Instagram, it’s not our building or our budget, it’s our spirit.
It is how am I. Right? The valuable resource you and your wife have as parenting is your spirit. It’s not your house. You change houses, jobs, cars. You reproduce what you are not what you do. So as a leader it is always what is my motive in this? Do I love them? Am I frustrated with them? That’s why this is different than any other job because you reproduce what you are: good, bad and ugly.
Q. And just for those --- Because I can hear some of the people who are ---
Well, when do you get stuff done if you are always wondering about the why? It’s not that you guys aren’t getting stuff done. It’s not that you’re not hustling. It’s just you are starting with that initial ‘why’ and you land on it quickly and then you start moving towards it. It think people get frustrated sometimes when it is all a ‘why’ discussion and nothing gets done. But just as a point of clarification. I know you guys hustle. I know you are getting stuff done. I think you come to your ‘whys’ pretty quickly.
Would that be fair to say?
A. Yes. I’ll give you a prime example. I announced a conference we want to do. I booked speakers for this conference. I even mentioned it in a sermon. We had planned nothing. I didn’t believe in it. I believed in it in my head but I didn’t have it verbalized so I was putting it off. We had a meeting. All of a sudden I started unpacking why I believed in it. It came together. We’ve been hustling. We had a team night this summer and we had it scheduled for one night. I’m like no, we’re not doing it that night. I didn’t believe in it.
We got together. We talked about the ‘why’ of it. We got on fire. We started cranking out hours and results. It’s all about do I believe in this. It’s not about lack of effort and hustle. It’s you’ve got to believe in what you’re doing.
Q. Right.
A. And then you give ‘er til you shiv ‘er. Like we work hard. We give ‘er. But if you don’t understand the ‘why’ then ---
If you don’t believe in it people won’t believe in it. And it’s not just an Instagram post or what you say. It is the core conviction of I’m going ---
If you honestly believe that mountain is worth charging, you’ll go up with no budget, no people, not that you’re a Lone Ranger, but you’re like I will give my life. That’s why Christianity is what it is. Jesus gave his life. He believed in the ‘why’ and that’s why thousands of years later we’re like we’re in because the motive ---
Jesus was not lazy. But he spent years building this is who I am. This is what I believe. These are my values and we’ve been rushing the mountain ever since. I think motive is everything and then just give ’er.
Q. Yes. Just as we end I just want you to maybe have you offer some resources that you think have been helpful for you, both in maybe personal development, podcasts, video series, you know, just anything ---
Maybe there’s an App you just can’t live without, just maybe help our multipliers out there with some of the things you are using.
A. Practically, this probably isn’t popular, I actually don’t podcast sermons. I don’t. I’m not against it. For me sometimes it feels like work. And I honestly believe there is something about being inspired by God. It happens more times than not someone will go do you know that church is preaching the same things? Do you know that that church is doing the same series? I’m like okay, there’s something about hearing from God for yourself.
But one thing I do podcast is I podcast some leadership. I podcast Craig Groeschel’s leadership. I’m not a big podcaster. I like it. It is usually twenty minutes long. And if I can say this in a great way, it’s not spiritual, meaning I need to get fed spiritually. But if, for example, some of his podcasts are on negotiation, how to negotiate, he had an FBI negotiator talking on there. There were other things about boundaries, good practical things, which is really really helpful for me.
I think it is important to talk to leaders that are ahead of where you’re at.
Q. Um-hmm.
A. When I was looking to get married I didn’t want to talk to other people my age. I went to older people. That’s why I believe mentoring is so important. Paul, we’ve had conversations like hey, what are you learning. I’m like what are you learning? Get around people ---
Don’t be threatened by people. There are hundreds of people larger than you, years ahead of you. They are your goal. And that’s why I think, if anything ---
The church is supposed to be generational. And what you get freely you give freely. I was on a call before this with a church planter. And he’s like what do you know. These are the resources I use. These are the Apps I use for design when we’re doing social media. And mentoring is more than just a buzz word. It is actually biblical. It is a lifestyle.
Find people that believe in you. I have pastors that believe in me. One, Rick Boyes in London, Ontario believes in us in every way; financially, relationships. If I need advice and he’s older than me, his church is bigger than ours, it is understanding that people ---
Your greatest resource is a face, not a place. It’s not a conference, it’s relationships. Paul, you’ve been a great friend in some real tough moments I’ve had, even in the last year, understanding prayer, what do you need. Do you need a laugh? The exact quote was if Mike needs me I’ll just tell jokes. Literally that was the conversation with my wife when I was in a tough place. At the same time if I need advice and resources you’re the guy. I just think it’s about understanding discipleship and resources.
The podcast is helpful for me. And practically; boundaries and rest. Rest is holy: get some.
Q. Yes.
A. We talk about Creation, of God taking a day of rest and we kind of over ---
Sometimes we use it as an excuse to be lazy. But rest is holy. Rest is absolutely holy. At our house we say this: rest is holy; get some. So we rest. We intentionally rest.
So learn from people ahead of you. Help those behind you and I would say the biggest thing is put a face on your fight all the time. It’s not a spreadsheet. It’s not a Google doc, it’s not an Instagram post. It’s stories and people. You can be lonely in this job because it is all about services and plans and conferences and designs and office space. You’ve got to be relational. And that’s why I think even in Jesus’s darkest moments he said can you not tarry for an hour. What was he saying? He didn’t need their prayers. He needed their companionship.
Q. Yes.
A. So many times we feel alone in this.
Q. Yes.
A. Find some friends. Thank God for Skype and phone calls. Find someone you can be in the same room with, go golfing with, pray together, laugh together, go have wings together. I think you need relationships and you need to glean from people. Those are what I’m leaning into right now.
Q. Amazing. Thanks, Mike, for jumping on today and we’re praying for you and Nance, and your fam, and the church. So keep going and thanks again for jumping on.
A. And thank you for this podcast. I listen to every one you put up. It’s a huge resource. I love that you are gleaning from the best in the world and putting it into the Canadian context. I love it and I’m cheering you guys on.
Q. Cool. Thanks, man.
--- End of Recording