Transcript of Podcast by Multiply Network
Created to champion church multiplication, provide learning and inspire new disciple-
making communities across Canada
2018 – Junie Josue
Paul Fraser: Welcome to the Multiply Network podcast, a podcast created to champion church multiplication, provide learning and inspire new disciple-making communities across Canada.
Hi there. Welcome to the Multiply Network podcast. I am your host, Paul Fraser. Thanks for tuning in to episode #3. I am hoping you had a chance to check out the first couple that we’ve done. You are going to enjoy today’s interview with Pastor Junie Josue. I hope I got that name right. Pastor Junie, if you are listening to this, I hope you are extending me some grace. We talk about some cool things in this interview; multi-siting, focusing on the next generation, talking about leadership pipeline. I thought he had some fantastic things to say about all of those. He has pastored the International Worship Center for, I believe, almost twenty years. They have five sites and looking to grow. If you are a leader out there who is excited about reaching Canada and hearing how to do that, Pastor Junie has some great ideas. He’s coming up right away so make sure you stick around to hear the interview.
Well, Pastor Junie, we are excited to have you on the Multiply Network podcast. Welcome.
Junie Josue:
A. Yes, I am excited, too. Thanks.
Q. Hey, why don’t you give us a little bit of the history of where you have been pastoring and how long you have been there?
A. Well, the church was started twenty years ago, at the end of May 1997. I arrived here in October of 1999. Previous to me they were actually choosing from three other pastors. I was the fourth man in the furnace! (Laughter) I was never part of the multiple choice and then they actually decided to pack up and not pursue starting a church because they could not agree on who was going to be the pastor. One of our former members from our church in the Philippines decided to contact my pastor, who was in Chicago at that time, and so he came here to Winnipeg and was surprised to find one of the pioneers was the caretaker of Bethel Temple in the Philippines. It used to be the largest church in Asia under Lester Sumrall and my pastor was the interpreter, Filipino interpreter. So it was like a mini reunion for guys from Bethel. And that kind of opened the door that they trusted him because of his reputation and credibility. He said that he has a pastor in mind and that was me and I had no idea. He said that he was willing to lay down his reputation for me and so after a year and a half I arrived in October of 1999 and there were, like, six to eight families to begin with.
Q. So you have been there a while and you have lasted in “Winterpeg” this whole time!
A. Absolutely. We had a clear calling, no plans of leaving the country. We were pretty much entrenched in Manila. My wife is a dermatologist and I am a businessman/pastor so we had no reason to leave, no plans. But God spoke to us. So while I was in the middle of a three-day fast, before I met my pastor who was on his way to the Philippines to talk to me about it, the Lord spoke to me that I will pastor my own church soon. At that point I was an associate pastor of our church at our main site because we are a multi-site church so I was in the mother church.
Q. Right.
A. And he came and talked to me the day after I fasted and told me I was being petitioned to go to Winnipeg.
Q. So, you got on a plane, got your family there; six to eight families starting the International Worship Center. We’re going to talk a little bit of your story there because you have done some multi-site work, and we’ll get into that. But since you started, I know that you have really wanted to reach out to the community. Everybody is welcome - so you decided to reach out to some of the gang members in your city.
A. Well, it was the prayer until finally one of the top members came to me and searched for me. He was in the middle of a very difficult marriage and family situation. A thought came to him and the thought was just to look for me. We met five years previous to that point. It was just hi, hello, introduce and that’s it. So when he was at the bottom of the barrel, at the end of his rope, he had this thought to go look for me. So he contacted a friend who was part of his business before who is now in our church. So we met in an A&W Restaurant. That’s one of my offices in Winnipeg!
Q. (Laughter)
A. I like their root beer floats!
Q. Yes. Reaching people for Jesus with root beer floats!
A. Absolutely. So that’s where he shared his story. A thought came to him about talking to me because he was really now desperate. His wife is getting depressed and suicidal. I said to him the only way up is to surrender your life to Jesus.
The word surrender on the street you don’t use that. You can get killed or it is a sign of weakness. They will take advantage of you. But I said to him that is the only option you got or you’re going to be seeing worse. So right there I led him to Christ and he prayed the prayer.
Q. Wow.
A. And that really caught the attention of many of his people and friends and family. So our church created a lot of curiosity from that community. So he was able to bring some of his friends. In fact, one of his toughest friends is now part of our church as well.
Q. (Laughter)
A. The good news is that we’ve been praying and praying that God will use him in a mighty way. We are looking forward to that. He is ready to go, ready to do anything for Jesus.
Q. Love that. What I love about your vision at your church is you are not just there to come and gather. You are really there to equip and send.
A. Oh yes.
Q. That is a big part of your passion. You’ve even said to me that you look at Winnipeg as your church, the city is your church. And one of the strategies that you have used and continue to use is the multi-site model.
A. Um-hmm.
Q. It seems to be very successful. Why don’t you tell us how many multi-sites you have currently and where are they located?
A. We have five sites; three in Winnipeg and two which is two hours away from Winnipeg. So we have five sites and seven services.
Q. All together?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes.
A. And most of our sites were the product of a cell structure. We have a training track to develop people from salvation to leadership of a small group. When you lead a small group you can potentially be a cluster leader and a network leader. And that in itself is leadership development; administration, discipleship, visitation and pastoral care. So that makes me visit people less in their homes and hospitals. So I don’t do that. I spend more time with my leaders and developing new leaders, which now I have four interns, young interns.
Q. How many of these multi-site pastors- because obviously you can only be at one site at a time, someone else is leading there - Are they all raised up from inside your church?
A. Yes. I think three out of five are from inside. But the two others they were actually part of our small group and we raised them up to become site pastors, the ones outside Winnipeg.
Q. Right. One of the things that we’re noticing as I have talked with other denominational leaders, certainly in our own PAOC Fellowship, we need a better leadership pipeline. There are churches like yours and others that are raising them up from inside. What are you doing to identify them and how are you training them to be site pastors?
A. For now we are in the midst of praying and fasting hard, you know, having people on the hit list. Right?
Q. Yes. Totally.
A. The Bible says that the harvest is plentiful but the labourers are few so pray for the Lord of the harvest to send labourers. So that’s the first step. Right? So you come with a hit list. And now we have started with four young people and every year we are going to have those interns who are actually potential site pastors, church planters.
Q. Right.
A. I am looking for somebody in the next five or six years to kind of phase me out here in our own main site because I pastor a site as well.
Q. Right.
A. The one you visited, the building. That’s our main site. That’s the largest site. So I want to raise up somebody who can be the face of that site, the leader of that site, while I lead the whole organization by visiting them more, training more leaders and I would not be stuck in this big building.
Q. Right. So the leadership pipeline comes a lot out of cell groups?
A. Yes, that is the basic. That is the fundamental. And then anybody who has gone through that, has led cells, leading cells, they can be potentially interns for a year. And internship is that I bring them to our Board Meetings, I bring them to funerals and weddings and spend time with the guys. I bring them to speaking engagements and then we huddle down afterwards to say what did you learn, how did you see that I did stuff, just like really mentor them in every fine detail of ministry and life, including marriage and family. So after a year they are ready to be on the stage, one or two will become part of our pastors’ council.
Q. Amazing. That’s a really great thing.
Now tell me what is it about multi-sites that makes it so effective in your mind? Why did you choose that strategy?
A. Well, it moves people from the pews to be active with the vision. So in a mega-church there are a lot of people in the pews. There are a lot of people on the sidelines. But when you plant churches you know what happens - There is going to be a lot of empty seats in our main church so you have to work harder. And then you have to raise up leaders. You have to kick them out of their nests and get them involved. And then the church plants, there are going to be a lot of desperate people trying to grow their new planted church.
Q. I think some people look at multi-site and go that’s exactly why I don’t want to do it. All my best leaders will go!
A. I know.
Q. But you are exactly the opposite.
A. Well, God spoke to me. The more you plant the more I will replenish it.
Q. Okay.
A. God took away the fear of losing. But it is more like gaining in the long haul process. And then see others rise up and do what they have not done at our main site, and they do stuff in the church plant and that other site.
Q. So what have you had to do to convince your church to keep on this vision?
A. They just see that it works. It is leadership capital but I am a pretty much a visionary strong leader so they easily get onboard. And I really take care of my leadership capital. I was raised up by a businessman, okay. And I was into business myself. You have to protect your money. You have to protect your capital. You don’t have to over-spend. To me it is very important that what I’m doing, from the entrepreneur’s perspective, there is a return on my investment. It is working. Because if it is not working then there’s going to be less momentum, less leadership capital. So the people know that it is working and they are good with it.
Q. Yes.
A. So now with the interns they know these are potential church planters and we are looking at the possibility I think in the near future Calgary is in our cross-hairs. It’s a target.
Q. Yes. Is it primarily Filipino or is it international? What is the target audience for The International Worship Center that you are aiming for?
A. It is still primarily Filipino but our focus on the young people is our gateway to the mainstream. That’s why we are big on the youth. We’re big on children being onstage, teenagers. So if you come to our church you would probably see that half or more are young. We counted them, around young adults, youth and children, there are around four hundred or five hundred.
Q. Wow.
A. We are really focusing on them. The thing with ethnic churches, the lifespan of ethnic churches is the lifespan of their elders. Right?
Q. Yes.
A. Because they are primarily focused on their ethnicity. Their young people actually move to mainstream receptor churches. Right? Like Spring, Church of the Rock, Calvary Temple. But most of our young people are intact. They are here and they are bringing their friends and classmates. Now with a basketball gymnasium for our youth, we have drop-in programs. Man, there’s a lot of boys coming in here. My son said, “Dad, that gymnasium is very, very attractive, especially with the shiny hard floors.” So, yes, we are focused on youth. We have Alpha in campuses. We have youth groups in campuses in high schools and stuff.
Q. So you are not fearful at all of sending young people out into ministry?
A. Oh no. You know, they are going to be the double portion generation, just like the story of Elisha. That’s what I have been preaching and giving the opportunity when I lead the church and talk to them about it. I didn’t talk about it in the conference in Kelowna, but I have spoken in churches in Richmond and the church there, Emmanuel, and I told them that we have to be intentionally focused on the next generation. Or else we’re going to lose them to the Pied Piper of the world. We have to.
Q. So what have you done? You have talked about a gym, putting them on the stage. What else are you doing to reach them?
A. I spend a lot of time with them.
Q. Oh really?
A. So my interns have to be twenty years younger. Now they are also in a mentorship program. They are to mentor somebody twenty years younger. It has to be the next generation. Because if you mentor people your age, you live with them, you run the vision with them and then you die with them and your vision dies. Right. So this is intentionally me raising up interns to become key leaders and the other leaders are mentoring young people. So, we have one of our leaders, who is the one who did the feasibility study on mentoring, so now we are slowly picking up young people to be mentored by older leaders. So it is the next generation focus.
Q. I love that. That to me, certainly for cultural language group churches, that is something that needs to be shared. Because it can’t just be a one generation church.
A. No. Through the young people, that’s how you go mainstream. They are no longer Filipinos, Africans, Chinese. No. They are now Canadians so they speak the language, they think the culture and they know how to reach out to this generation of theirs.
So I am phasing myself out as far as being the face and the voice on the stage and the culture. In fact, we are even having our name changed because our name sounds so un-Canadian.
Q. Um-hmm. Interesting.
A. So we are looking at Summit Church. That is one of the choices we have. Thrive Church, or something. We are trying to come up with a name that fits our next generation leaders.
Q. Junie, I love that. Some people don’t know you. But how old are you?
A. I am forty-nine.
Q. And you are already thinking about phasing yourself out?
A. Oh yeah. I am looking at fifty-three that you won’t see me much on the stage. But I’m still leading the organization.
Q. Right.
A. To me, something happened in my family that made me realize I cannot be doing this for the longest time. If my leadership were not intact and in place I could have not survived what I have gone through and the church could have not survived. But there was a time, a stretch of years, that all I did was just preach, did meetings with leaders, when the whole church was functioning and functional. There were cell group leaders pastoring a group, praying for them, visiting them. They were not looking for the senior pastor to do it because that is already the culture.
Q. Very cool.
A. So I’m not the Jack of all Trades, Master of None!
Q. Right.
A. I can still play basketball and spend time with unchurched people.
Q. And you find that super freeing?
A. Absolutely. I’m not the office type. I would rather be out there speaking or talking or chatting with an unchurched person. I’m not in any way intimidated by their cussing and all of their jokes and all of their what-not, un-church things, because I came from that. So I was a bad dude back then. I love mingling with unchurched people. Sometimes it is better to mingle with them. (Laughter) Church people are so religious they cannot even get out of the pews and say hi to an unchurched person.
Q. Yes.
A. So to me I need to live this by example so the church can see it and enjoy themselves.
Q. This is really good stuff. I think sometimes we think that because we get a bit older that maybe we need to be - as the senior pastor, the main leader - always on the stage. But you are saying no.
A. No. Even now I’ve seen that some of the interns are better than me at speaking, in so many ways, like substance of it, the context of it, their diction, their pronunciation, their lingo, their terminology. They are Millennial.
Q. Yes.
A. So I would speak probably the same message according to my generation and the younger generation would only get half of my message. The younger generation, the Millennials, they speak 100%, the whole nine yards. They can communicate well. So why would I bother expending energy that is not effective? It is less effective, so why would I do that?
Q. Very interesting. Very interesting.
A. So, you know, it’s passing the baton. It is going to be five years of passing the baton. So if we have five interns every year that’s twenty-five new leaders, new church planters, new senior leaders.
Q. Right.
A. And we’re not planning to take them out of their profession or vocation. One of the interns is taking up law. So we want her to become a lawyer and reach out to the lawyers and clients and stuff.
Q. Amazing.
A. But she can be one of our lead teachers because she is so anointed to teach and speak on stage. And she can be part of our Board, our Council, because we have so many professionals on our Council. We have an HR consultant with the Government. We have a building administrator for the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. So we have very intelligent people onboard so it doesn’t have to be a one-man rule. (Laughter)
Q. Oh no!
A. We just have to tap these talented, intelligent, anointed people and unleash them.
Q. So there are some senior pastors out there listening to this podcast. What advice would you give to them about multi-siting, about raising up the next generation, you know. Give us your State of the Union speech.
A. Well, you know what, our purpose in mission is to make disciples of all nations. We cannot do it by primarily using the old model of preachers on stage, the main guy, the chief speaker, the anointed evangelist and pastor, who is well known all over the world. We have to raise up our young people. We have to raise up everybody so that everybody will do their part. Some of them can be better than us, as senior pastors, in speaking, in leading, in winning and making disciples - just spreading the salt all over, casting the light all over the place.
In the business world, in the underground world, in politics, everywhere, in schools, they have to be the pillars of society and culture creators. So we have to raise them up. And the number of harvests we have is dependent on the number of workers and leaders we have.
Q. Right.
A. Jesus said the harvest is plentiful but the labourers are few. So my goal, my role found in Ephesians 4 is to equip the saints, not to be the chief minister or the only minister, or the super minister. My role is to equip my people, God’s people, so they can do the ministry. Right? So I have to do some benign neglect of so many other things a typical pastor does, which I have done fifteen years ago when I started the cell structure, I think in 2000-2001. I did some benign neglect of other people that I didn’t visit. I sent somebody else to visit them. I’m training leaders.
Q. Wow.
A. Some people got mad at me and some pioneers got envious. I said, “Well, you brought me here with a vision, to win the lost and make disciples and fill people with the Spirit.” Yes. “I’m doing the strategy that is going to work.”
So no offense. I love you all, but you cannot all be in my core.
Q. Right.
A. You cannot all be part of the twelve disciples Jesus had. I have a core and I have to focus on them and then line up, be part of a small group, go through the process, be a small group leader and show your stuff there. If you grow it then you have earned the right to be one of the key leaders. If not, then God is calling you somewhere else, like a deacon. It doesn’t have to be a position. Just serve.
Q. Right.
A. Okay. I have not done typical pastor stuff or load for fifteen years. So I am not burned out in my ministry.
Q. Should we multi-site?
A. Oh absolutely! Because there are apostles in our churches. We need to find them. We need to find them. We need to equip them and then we need to deploy them. Or else we are missing the gifts God has given, not just the nine spiritual gifts, but also the five-fold ministry gifts.
There, in my church, are diamonds in the rough and my goal is to find them. I’m a miner.
Q. (Laughter) You are mining for gifts!
A. I am mining for gifts. And then you process them and release their potential and power.
Q. Love it.
A. And you actually see them doing better stuff than you because they are gifted there.
Q. This is fantastic stuff, Pastor Junie. I just want to thank you for your time today. It is so good. We’re cheering you on.
A. Thank you.
The best days of the church are before us. But we need some strategic leaders and pastors, and even leaders who are willing to ruffle some feathers. Because when I came here the church was the product of two splits. They were from two churches. So I had to love them with tough love. I was the youngest adult. They were mostly older than me, like parents and grandparents. In my culture you have to bow to them. But I said I bowed to no one but Jesus. I have a vision and I love you. You brought me here. I’m a no nonsense guy. It’s either we have results or we don’t. If we don’t have results we pack up. I go back to the Philippines. Sayonara. I’m done.
Q. I agree.
A. But you know I said to them in seven years if the church is not growing, then I am going to pack up and leave. In seven years the church grew to five hundred from six families.
Q. I would say that we have to clone you, but you are already reproducing yourself in others.
A. (Laughter) Well, you know what, we are reproducing Christ followers, eh.
Q. C’mon.
A. It’s not about me. I’m not the best example out there. But Jesus is, so we have to focus on Jesus.
Q. Right.
A. You show them your weaknesses too.
Q. Yes, that’s a big part of it.
A. They know that you’re not the guy they need to really fully emulate. They need to focus their eyes on Jesus. So I’m pretty much an open book here.
Q. Amazing.
Thanks for opening your book to us on the Multiply Network.
A. My pleasure. We’re part of the team, so any way we can help, any which way.
Q. All right. Thanks so much again. Have a great day.
A. Thank you. God bless. Bye bye.
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