In this episode we catch up with Wendy Payne to talk about her church planting journey, balancing life and ministry, what staying spiritually vital looks like and what we can do as a fellowship to inspire and encourage more women to be church planters!
In this episode we catch up with Wendy Payne to talk about her church planting journey, balancing life and ministry, what staying spiritually vital looks like and what we can do as a fellowship to inspire and encourage more women to be church planters!
Transcript of Podcast by Multiply Network
Created to champion church multiplication, provide learning and inspire new disciple-
making communities across Canada
2019 – Wendy Payne
Paul Fraser: Welcome to the Multiply Network podcast, a podcast created to champion church multiplication, provide learning and inspire new disciple-making communities across Canada.
Hi there. Welcome to the Multiply Network podcast. I’m so glad you are back with us. My name is Paul Fraser, the host of the Multiply Network podcast. We’re so excited about our interview this month. We’re talking with Wendy Payne from Manitoulin Island. We talk about her church planting journey, how to balance church, marriage and self-care, how to stay spiritually vital, leadership development tips on how to develop leaders, and what I really loved was our conversation about what we could do to inspire and encourage more women to be church planters. That’s something I think in our PAOC Fellowship we want to definitely work harder at. We have such a rich history of incredible women leading in our Movement and we know it will be a big part of our future.
You’re going to love what she has to say. It’s a fun interview and it’s coming up right now.
Q. We’re so glad to have Wendy all the way from Manitoulin Island join us on the podcast today. Hi Wendy. How are you doing?
Wendy Payne:
A. Hi. I’m great. I’m thrilled to be here.
Q. Hey, how do you get to Manitoulin Island? We were just chatting a bit about that and I thought it would be good for our podcast listeners to get the 4-1-1 on how do you get to an Island.
A. Okay. So in the summer you can take a ferry from Tobermory, which is a couple of hours from Toronto. But if you are driving it’s about a good eight- or nine-hour drive from Toronto. So you head north to Sudbury and then turn off so you’re heading east, I guess, and you are going towards Sault Ste. Marie and then you’re going to hang a huge left, go over a bridge and you’re in the middle of nowhere, like literally. When we came here to pastor the church and we were coming for the first time, I said to my husband, “You watch. It is going to be in the middle of this bush.” That’s pretty much what it was. (Laughter)
Q. It’s so great to have you back. And for those of you who remember our first Multiply Network launch back in May, you were one of our first interviews. I was rereading that again. Such great things.
So why don’t you catch us up with what has been happening in the last year? How have things been going in the church? Why don’t you just catch us up a little bit?
A. The church is growing like crazy. We can sit comfortably about maybe 120. We’re pushing a hundred right now, which is really awesome. We’ve done some more renos on the church just trying to continue with upgrading the physical building to make it look a little bit more 2000 rather than the eighties, which it was. (Laughter)
Q. Yes, yes, yes.
A. But we are still seeing people coming in and new people are coming to Christ and to faith, having lightbulb moments on who Jesus is. That is exciting. We’re almost four years in and we’re still seeing God moving and bringing people. So it’s awesome.
Q. That is so great. Remind us again of the town you are in, how many people are there, because I think it is significant to understand you came in to what was a closed church. It is a replant after how many years. Why don’t you just give us a quick little history and let us know what kind of environment are you pastoring in?
A. Okay. The church was closed for just over two years. So we came in and really had to rebuild relationships with the community because it is a small community of four hundred people. We have surrounding towns that have more. It’s all kind of just little villages around us on the Island. So everybody knows everybody’s stuff so they knew the situation with the church and why it closed, which was a fairly negative situation. So we had to rebuild relationships with people and rebuild trust. We had to kind of come in and just love on the community and get to know people in the community. So it was probably a good I would say six months at least before we started to see an actual flow of people come in because they really just were watching to see if we’re legit, if we’re staying, if we’re who we say we are, you know.
Q. What was that six months like? Because there are some church planters out there that go if this isn’t going in six months, I’m out. That’s a long time. What were you going through during that?
A. Honestly, a lot of really a lot of moments of walking the streets and just crying out to God. Like honestly crying out to God. Did we make the hugest mistake of our lives, uplifting our whole life and coming to this place that is just like going back fifty years in time? My husband and I literally honestly would sit on a Sunday morning in front of the window and just pray that somebody would show up. We would get, you know, maybe one or two people. It was like that for a long time.
One particular Sunday I had three visiting pastors who just came to visit on holidays, so that was awkward. (Laughter) But it was hard but it really pushed you to keep pressing on and really sticking to the knowledge inside of us that this is what we were called to do. God definitely called us to be there and if we would persevere it would work out. And it did. I mean, after about the sixth or seventh month we would every single week see new people walking in those doors and stay.
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. How many people quit too soon?
A. Exactly! Exactly. That’s the shame. Because what I see now, the people that are coming, especially the ones who so don’t know anything, like legit don’t even know Adam and Eve, they literally are like we don’t even know what you’re talking about kind of thing. So when I think about it now if we would have quit we would have missed out on seeing those people now who are just excited about Christ, you know.
Q. Yes. So you had to lean into your calling?
A. Totally. Totally had to just ---
I have never honestly experienced that, to the depth of having to trust in God to that degree because you constantly are questioning yourself. And the enemy has a heyday with that. Right. Constantly telling you that you made a mistake. They are not coming because ---
All stupid reasons. Because you’re a woman. Because you don’t know what you’re talking about. Because ---
Every ridiculous thing you can imagine comes to your mind. So it’s fighting through that and really just trusting God and pushing through and saying no, I believe we’re here for a reason.
Q. What you are saying right there, I have a feeling, is going to encourage some people out there listening to this podcast. They may be going we’ve been in this for a year, two years, three years, whatever and we’re just not seeing the growth we wanted. I’m ready to pack it in. But I’m hearing you today just saying trust your calling.
A. Yes; absolutely. Stick to it. Persevere. Press on. Because God obviously called you there and there is a purpose, you know.
Q. That’s super encouraging. So would that be the biggest lesson you have learned in church planting so far or would there be others?
A. I would definitely say trusting in God, for sure. Worry less because I can be this crazy worry person. I think for me the biggest, one of the biggest fears, because it’s a replant so when we came we already had a building. We already had hydro bills, heating bills, everything. So just really just diving in all the way and trusting that God is going to provide the money. It’s not simple but it’s a legitimate thing in trusting him.
One really quick little kind of story that really just again told me how much I needed to trust God was when we started we didn’t have any worship. I can’t sing. I don’t play an instrument. My husband can hold a tune but no instrument. So we were doing worship, You Tube worship, for the first six months again. And on the Island they do these periodic power outages where the whole Island, because they are doing repairs or whatever on the power grids, so I told my husband okay, you can hold a tune so you need to do this a cappella. So he pulls out worship music from the eighties. You know, from the rising of the sun ---
Q. Like the oldies!
A. Because that is all he felt comfortable with. And of course that Sunday we had a new family come and I am mortified. I’m up at the front. I’m trying to clap and trying to make it like yeah, this is the best moment ever. I just inside was dying thinking these people are never going to come back because this is so pathetic. I didn’t give much credit to my husband, I guess.
Q. Yes.
A. Anyway, the new lady that came, she came up to me after the service and was like asking for our contact information, said it was the absolute best service she has ever been to in her life and that’s four years ago. She is still in every week. Her son comes to youth group. They are totally committed.
So when we think it is a total bust, a total fail, we need to just completely trust God because he knows better. So from my standpoint I’m thinking this service is horrific and I’m never going to see this woman again. But from her standpoint she experienced God in a way that I had no idea.
So the lesson I learnt was Wendy, smarten up. Trust God. You do not know everything. (Laughter)
Q. Yes. And the beautiful thing is when God is there, people know it.
A. Yes, that’s right.
Q. People know it. I’m all about excellence and I could sit there. I’m actually picturing myself at your service.
A. Laughter.
Q. Being that person in the front trying to get people excited.
A. This is Elevation. This is like Bethel. (Laughter)
Q. And for them. But the best thing we can offer people is God.
A. Exactly.
Q. That’s it. What a great lesson. So how long have you guys been there now?
A. We’re almost four years. It will be four years in July.
Q. Right.
A. Yes.
Q. Looking back, if there are some planters, other pastors listening and going okay, we’re just on the front end of this or maybe we’re at the four-year mark too, anything you would have changed looking back? Anything we can learn from your journey?
A. Moments like that, would you want to change that? Probably not because you learn from those.
Q. Right.
A. I think the biggest learning, if I can say anything that I have really learnt in the process is learn to delegate, which again seems like, maybe people are going duh! But for me I’m the type of person who will not want to bother people so I will do everything and anything. With church planting it was just me and my husband. We didn’t come in with a team. It was just us. So you just kind of automatically do everything on your own.
But once you start getting people come in, I kind of forgot to make use of them and make them feel like they have importance. So I needed to learn to give them opportunities to be feeling a part of the church family. That would probably be my biggest. If I were to change anything it would be I should have learnt that lesson sooner: to delegate.
Q. Yes. It was just you and your husband, right, that came into this. No team.
A. No. We had our daughter, who was just finishing Bible College so she would come once a month to lead worship for us. We would pay her gas and get her to come so we could have a live person at least once a month. She still had her last year to finish so technically it was just us.
Q. Yes. So outside of you three, that was it. I get it. Because you pioneered this thing and you poured your heart and soul into it. Was it ever about, well no, this is my thing so I don’t want you to do it or was it more about I don’t want to inconvenience other people?
A. It was definitely not this is my thing, for sure, definitely not that. I’m the type of person who doesn’t want to put people out and make them feel like ---
I guess because I feel like this is my responsibility so therefore I’m the pastor, I should be doing it all. But when you start to see people, when they have a purpose in your church, it makes them feel like they have a purpose. They are included and it makes them want to be part. It’s awesome, once you start allowing them to do those things. It’s very freeing, really.
Q. Yes. That’s good wisdom. People need to hear that today because you cannot make this about you. You’ve got to involve other people. They have gifts, talents and abilities that God has brought to that church for them to just grow. That’s a really great thought.
So you are busy. At the time we are recording this podcast you are five days out, or whatever, of going to Guatemala. You are busy with the church. The church is growing. You are renovating the building, bringing it out of the eighties. How do you balance church, marriage and self-care? How do you do that as a pastor in a small town?
A. It’s not easy and I’m not going to sit here and say that I’m perfect by any means. But I’m still old school as far as using a paper agenda. So I literally write everything down. If I have an appointment or if I need to take some study time or planning my sermon, whatever. I literally make myself appointments for everything to try to keep myself so I don’t double book. So that helps me to kind of keep everything somewhat on track.
As far as my personal ---
I’m really, I’m super ---
Maybe saying selfish may be a little bit strong, but I am very consistent with my day off. So Monday is my day off. So I keep that. I don’t even answer my phone. I put a message on. This is my day off. If it is an emergency leave me a message and I will screen calls. And I tell my church that. That’s my day off. I need a day and they’ve been amazing about it so I’m really, really strong that I need that day.
I like to really make sure that I still don’t--, as much as I am a pastor, I still have goals and dreams on my own besides that so I still really try to push into that and make sure I do those.
Q. Yes.
A. And self-care is important too. You don’t want to lose yourself because your people will – I mean this in a positive manner – they could suck the life out of you if you let them so you need to make sure that you do stuff for you, that brings you happiness.
Q. Totally.
A. Our marriage. We, again, are really good say, if Darrell needs to go to Sudbury, which is about two hours from us, which is the biggest and closest shopping center, is about two hours. So if he needs to go to get a part for work or something, if I don’t have anything on my schedule I’ll go along with him, just because that gives us four hours of visit, you know. Or make a trip to Sudbury to go for dinner and a movie or something. We do that kind of thing.
Q. Very good. So what do you do then, you talked about self-care. I’m a huge believer in that. What my wife and I say is self-care isn’t selfish unless it is. (Laughter)
A. Laughing.
Q. If it goes overboard it can drift into selfishness for sure. But this idea of self-care being selfish, you need to make sure that every area of your life is being looked at and taken care of; emotional, physical.
Why don’t you tell us a little bit about spiritually? How do you stay ---
When I’m around you I just sense that there’s an excitement for the things of the spirit and you have a passion to follow Jesus with your whole heart. It’s contagious. Like what do you do to stay spiritually vital?
A. I really am, I feel like people say stuff and you’re like trying to sound so spiritual. I don’t mean that. I really every single day get into the Word. I do. For me it works best at night when I’m in bed. Other people are like oh, I would fall asleep. I don’t. I need that. That’s when I do it. I really truly do read every single day. I’m in the Word and reading some kind of teaching, book, leadership book, something to fill that part of me. If I’m going, because I do a lot of traveling, I’ve always got worship music on. I’m always ---
I have learnt that the only way I can survive is truly to make Jesus a priority every single day. Every single day. So I have these ongoing conversations with him like I would talk to anybody. And when I get into the word I make sure I’m getting into the word for me to take something away, not just to be like this would be something really great to preach on.
Q. Right.
A. I need to find something that I can have as a take-away. I know from experience that that is the only way I will ever survive is by doing that every day.
Q. Yes. How do you lead people in that? Obviously discipleship is a big deal for you. What do you teach the people you are leading, the brand new Christians? Do you just say hey, follow me as I follow Christ? Or is it individual discipleship? What do you think?
A. Well, for sure you have to lead by example. I’m very, very transparent when I’m preaching. They just know that’s who I am. I do my absolute best to encourage them and in my sermons I really stress the importance of getting into the word of God and teaching them that you cannot ---
We know the story. You can’t survive on eating food once a week. You will not survive eating spiritually just coming to hear me once a week. I can’t be responsible for your spiritual healthiness once a week. That is not a spiritual responsibility for me. You have to breathe into this on your own.
Q. Yes.
A. I don’t know. Maybe sometimes I’m like a broken record constantly saying that to them. But they get it, you know, because I hear them. They will message me on Facebook or whatever; text. This is what I was reading and oh my gosh this is what I learnt. I love those moments. I love it when I see that they are actually digging in.
Q. Yes, yes, yes. It’s a big deal. I think it was a number of years ago I read something about, you know, the big church tried to disciple their people and were realizing that they weren’t actually training them to be self-feeders.
A. Right.
Q. They never knew how to go into the Word. They would just go to Wednesday night prayer and Thursday night Bible study and Sunday morning was church. They were just lasting on three or four meals and not learning how to be self-feeders. It is so critically important.
A. Yes. Absolutely.
Q. So you mentioned delegating. I want to kind of get back to that a little bit. You started with two leaders, or three with your daughter. But now you’ve got more leaders in the church. So, I was just on a call this week with some church planters going how can we develop leaders. There’s new Christians. How quickly do you move them along into leadership roles? New people to the church, is there a six-month waiting period before they get involved? Any tips on leadership development or how you create pathways for them?
A. You have to be wise on what positions you give them. Obviously I’m not going to put a new Christian on my Council, my Board Council. That would be stupid. But anybody can teach a Sunday School lesson. In my mind I’m thinking as they’re teaching it, they are learning, you know. And you give them kind of basic, look at who they are, where they’re at in their spiritual life and give them something that first of all isn’t going to overwhelm them or maybe give them whatever where they’re going to get kind of a sour taste in their mouth because of church whatever. So you have to look at where they are in life and go by that. So yes, we had young Christians. I’m like here’s a Sunday School lesson. Read it and tell a story. Here’s a craft. It’s awesome. Because as they are teaching they are learning.
Q. Yes.
A. We can give them simple things like hey, can you help us? One lady was coming for about three or four weeks and she’s a do-er. She’s a kitchen lady. You know when you get a kitchen lady. I’m like we have kitchen ladies. They thrive in the kitchen!
Q. Yes.
A. So I said hey, do you want to be the one to set up our communion once a month? You would think I gave her gold. She is proud as punch that she is the one who puts the communion together. You don’t have to be a twelve-year Christian to put juice in a cup. And it might sound trivial to some people. But to her she was so proud and so excited that she was the communion lady. So you just have to find ---
And I don’t just say here you go, do it, and then not ---
I’m constantly checking in on them. We do, with our church workers, we’ll do sessions or I’m having leadership ---
Let’s have a meeting or dinner or have them to my house, just to check in on them. How are you doing? How are you managing? Are you overwhelmed? Are you okay? What do you need from me?
Q. Right. You give them opportunities but you don’t leave them out there without you checking in, encouraging?
A. Right. For sure. You need to constantly be checking in and making sure that they are not overwhelmed, that they still like doing what they are doing.
Q. Yes. Obligation is horrible. Obligation is a horrible way to enrol leaders and volunteers by making them feel guilty. We need this and you don’t love Jesus if you don’t serve in Children’s Church ---
A. Yes.
Q. You’ve got to make it fun. You’ve got to make it exciting. You’ve got to give them opportunity. But I think you would agree with this that most of the battle for leadership development is trying to find out what they are passionate about and where they fit. Would that be true?
A. For sure. Yes. For sure. So you have to kind of watch them and see. Sometimes you might even need to encourage them on what are their gifts because sometimes they don’t even see it in themselves. So if you can see it and encourage them in it, and again it doesn’t have to be, like you’re not asking them to get up and preach, you know. It can be something so simple as hey, can you bring muffins to church, you know. You’ve just got to find those people.
Q. Yes, yes. It is all important.
So I wanted to check in with you on this. One of the things in the PAOC family history is we’ve got great stories throughout almost our hundred years of powerful women of faith planting churches all throughout Canada, throughout our Movement and yet today we don’t see a lot. What do you think we need to do as a Fellowship, as the PAOC, from your perspective? What do you think we need to do to encourage more young women to think about this or those who may be a bit older to think about what can we do in church leadership? What do we need to do as a PAOC tribe or family to get more women involved in leadership in church, specifically planting of course, for my purposes. But you can broaden it out if you would like.
A. Laughing. Okay. I think it is having conversations like we’re having now. Make it open. Make it where people are hearing that for one thing, that it’s doable, that they are able. We need to change some of our talk, I find. I still see in letters that are shipped off, emails, whatever, I still see – I’m not a Feminist – but I still see a lot of male ---
Let’s be better men of God. Or, you know, just terminologies that I think we really need to change.
I went to a conference and we had to fill out a form because the speaker wanted to have some information on people that were attending. So he asked the pastor’s name, the pastor’s birthdate and the pastor’s wife’s name and the pastor’s birthday. I was very tempted to write “well if I had a wife I probably wouldn’t have credentials”. (Laughter)
So it’s just learning to change our talk because then women would probably feel like they are not less than.
Q. I want to jump in there for a quick second. Do you think it is a subtle way of saying, I don’t think anyone is trying to do this, but do you think it is a subtle way of saying we’re not going that way, you know, as it relates to women in leadership or do not enter type of thing. Do you feel like that’s a subtle unintentional thing that is going on?
A. I truly believe it is unintentional. I don’t think anybody is purposely going we don’t want women. I don’t believe that for a second. I think for so long it just has been such a male-dominated Fellowship that we have kind of lost the fact that women definitely have the abilities and the talents and capabilities and God has definitely anointed women to be. I mean, our church was planted by a woman in the 1940’s.
Q. Yes.
A. But it definitely is not intentional but we need to be more aware. Because those subtle little words do make people ---
Like I’m a pretty strong personality but you get somebody who is a little bit insecure, it will completely stop them from even trying, from even thinking it is even a possibility.
Q. Like you’re not welcome here.
A. Yes.
Q. What else do we need to do? Any other thoughts?
A. Yes. So here’s a thought that any time I get a chance to put a plug in, for conferences for instance, we used to have pastor’s wives workshops and I realize they have now tried to change those to women in ministry, which is lovely. I love that we are making that effort. At the same token my husband will say to me, “Why would I go? There is nothing for me as a man.” I’ve heard another woman pastor who leads in Peterborough, Ontario and her husband is an electrician and he has said the same thing. I’m an electrician. Why would I go? So, I’m wondering could we even incorporate workshops for pastor’s spouses and see how they feel. Where do they fit? Because we know as lead pastors people tend to be drawn to the lead pastor so your spouse kind of gets set on a back burner, not that they are by any means. But sometimes in congregation’s eyes they do.
We kind of make them feel, even if they are a man or a woman, and just have those conversations that this is a mixed group. It’s not just women, it is men as well, and reach out to them.
Q. Yes.
A. That’s kind of my bit.
Q. Those are some important conversations that need to happen. I’m thinking maybe to the next generation that are thinking about ministry, don’t see a lot of examples of women as senior pastors or church planters, anything we can do to inspire these next generation women of God to look at church leadership? What do we need to do? How do we need ---
Do we just need more examples? Do we need to tell more stories? What are you thinking?
A. Definitely more stories. Just keep the conversation going. And I think it can maybe even start right from the Bible College. Really encourage those young women leaders to say, you know what, you can be a church planter. You can be a lead pastor. You don’t have to just be the children’s pastor, not that there’s anything wrong with being a children’s pastor.
Q. No, no. I know what you mean.
A. But they kind of feel like that’s all. Like to be honest, when I was almost done my schooling, I was about two courses away and I just was kind of almost to the point of am I going to finish this. This is so much work because obviously I was working full time and just doing what I could online. I met up with Bill Morrow and I told him, you know, I’m not really sure. I think I’m just going to be somebody’s assistant for the rest of my life. That’s fine if that’s where God wants me to be. But I just feel like I have much more to give. He poured into me. It was the best five minutes of my life. He just poured into me and when he said, “Wendy, things are changing. You can be a lead pastor.” I’m like really? Can I really? So I think even from the Bible College, right from the ground, start encouraging those women, those young female girls, you can do this.
Q. Yes. And we need people like you championing that.
A. Oh, thank you.
Q. You’re doing such a great job, Wendy. Every time I chat with you you’ve got such great thoughts and insight and experience and passion. When I talk with the WOD, Western Ontario District team, they are like oh, she’s just ---
Jason Small, he was just here, she is a rock star. She is knocking it out of the park. And Wendy, to have a hundred people in a town of 400!
A. It’s crazy.
Q. That is God! He is using you powerfully. So I’m so excited that we had this conversation today. I appreciate what you are doing and how you are doing it. You have a great social media presence. I was just looking in on Instagram. You are One Minute ---
What do you call it?
A. One Minute Challenge.
Q. So One Minute Challenge. So while I was waiting I was watching. Leading missions trips and I think you are part of the District Leadership Team in Western Ontario. So I just think let’s keep championing together to get more young women thinking about ministry, about leadership, church planting, senior pastoring, sitting on District Executives. Let’s keep that conversation going.
A. Yes, for sure.
Q. Okay. We’re going to end with rapid fire questions.
A. Okay.
Q. I didn’t give you these questions in advance so this is ---
A. I’m prepared! I’ve been watching your podcasts so I’m like okay, what am I going to get; Tim Horton’s, Starbucks, what am I getting. (Laughter)
Q. Okay. So you’ve done some research. Well done.
I purposely didn’t put Starbucks or Tim Horton’s because I’ve over-used it. I’ve been getting some feedback.
A. Cool. Okay.
Q. So first question. Favourite meal of the day?
A. Oh, dinner.
Q. Okay. So, what do you mean by dinner, because some people think lunch is dinner.
A. Okay. So supper.
Q. Supper.
A. Yes.
Q. Favourite place to eat.
A. I’m going to say East Side Mario’s.
Q. Okay. Good. Best book you’ve read in the last twelve months.
A. Soar.
Q. Soar?
A. By T. D. Jakes.
Q. Say that again?
A. S-O-A-R by T. D. Jakes.
Q. Oh, I’m a big T. D. Jakes fan. That’s so good.
Okay. Favourite place you visited in the world.
A. Greece.
Q. Okay. If you had to have coffee or tea, what would you pick?
A. Coffee.
Q. And would you have anything in it?
A. If I’m going to treat myself I would do a mocha; half coffee half hot chocolate. Or half espresso.
Q. Okay, okay.
Podcasts you are listening to?
A. I love to listen to anything I can get my hands on with Francis Chan or Steven Furtick.
Q. Okay. If you have a chill night at home, what are you doing?
A. I am watching, binge watching, my husband and I started watching Designated Survivor.
Q. Whoa! I feel like we could talk about that for the next ten minutes. Okay. I love Designated Survivor.
A. That’s awesome.
Q. What most excites you about ministry these days?
A. Oh. Seeing people come to know Christ, for sure. That’s awesome. I love to preach. My passion is preaching God’s word. I’m so ---
I just love and am so honoured that God would allow me to do that.
Q. I wish the podcast audience could see your face when you were saying that.
A. Laughing.
Q. Well, you know what you can do if you track. Wendy, where do we find you on social media?
A. I’m on Instagram. It’s @pastor_wendy. Facebook is Wendy Payne or Contagious Power, or Manitoulin Community Church, for that matter.
Q. Yes, right, because I’ve seen some of your clips there preaching.
So Wendy, thanks for your time today. I really appreciate it. We’re excited to hear more stories so keep doing what you’re doing. Thanks again for joining us today.
A. Thank you. Good-bye.
--- End of Recording.