THE DISAPPEARANCE OF MARION BARTER (SEASON FINALE, PART 1)

In our three-part season finale miniseries, we explore cases of travellers who go missing while abroad. 

Part one focuses on the disappearance of Marion Barter - one of Australia’s most puzzling missing persons cases.

In 1997, the 51-year-old teacher set off on a year-long overseas trip, staying in contact with family as she traveled. Just 5 weeks into her trip, she made a final call to her daughter that seemed normal. However, it would be the last time anyone in her family ever heard from her.

In this super-sized episode, we break down Marion’s life before her trip, the timeline of her travels, and the many twists and turns uncovered in the nearly thirty years since she vanished.

RESOURCES:

Full Coroner's Inquest

The Lady Vanishes: New evidence in the case of Marion Barter | 7NEWS Spotlight

The conman, his lovers and the mother who vanished (CNN)

The Lady Vanishes Podcast

The Missing Matter Podcast

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This episode contains disturbing content and brief mention of suicide, which may be distressing to some listeners. If you or someone you know is struggling, help is available. Go to findheheline.com to access relevant services available in your country. Or dial nine eighty eight for the twenty four-seven Suicide Hotline in Canada or the US. Please take care while listening. Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of Crime Family. I'm your co-host AJ, and I'm here with my two sisters and two co-hosts, Katie and Lisa. And this week we are going to be starting a mini-series, a three-part mini-series for our finale. So this week will be part one of this three-part miniseries. And it's going to be three separate cases that aren't connected, but they do have sort of an overarching theme to them. And, you know, these cases are ones that have always interested me. And there's so many of them to pick from. But there are cases of travelers who go missing while abroad. This week I'll be doing one case that involves that. Then next week, and the next two weeks, Lisa and Katie will be doing their own. So this week for part one, I am going to be doing a case that kind of starts out and seems relatively straightforward at the beginning, but it is quite complex as we get into it and is undeniably tragic. So it's about an Australian woman who was in her 50s who vanishes during what was meant to be a year-long solo trip through Europe. This is the case of Marian Barter. And so for anyone who's familiar with this case already, you might be thinking that it doesn't perfectly fit the theme that I just said. But the reason I chose it was because it does sort of all begin and it's really rooted in this one pivotal and very puzzling trip that she takes to Europe. And that's kind of what sets off the whole investigation. But as we get into it, you'll start to realize that it's not going to be exactly what you think it is. Um, and it ultimately raises more questions than answers. So I did feel like it was a compelling inclusion in this miniseries, despite it not fitting 100%. But it is also a case that's kind of one of those ones that we've done a lot of this year of like, was it foul play? Was it an intentional disappearance? Was there even a crime involved at all? Like it's one of those ones as well. There is a lot to it. And so without further ado, I will begin. Mariam Barter's disappearance actually dates back to 1997, but widespread attention on the case didn't really emerge until 2019. And that was when the release of the Lady Vanishes podcast was. So this was a podcast that re-examined this full case and followed new leads as they surfaced. So it's a several episode podcast that's focused on this case, and they're kind of investigating it in real time, and they're actually uncovering new information as the podcast goes, um, which so it's really, really intriguing in that way. And actually, the renewed interest in this case from that podcast eventually led to a formal coroner's inquest into the disappearance. And that took place between 2021 and 2024. And in 2024 is when they concluded the investigation. There were numerous witnesses that were called to testify during the inquest. There was new evidence that was presented, and it resulted in a detailed 169-page report that was produced by coroner Teresa O'Sullivan. And so I will be referring to this coroner's inquest several times as I go throughout this case because it does remain the most comprehensive source for many of the aspects of this case. And I did read all 169 pages of that report. It's a lot. So I had to kind of condense it down into what I felt were the most pertinent pieces of information. So Mariam Barter was born on October 3rd, 1945, and she grew up with three sisters. And in her early 20s, she married Johnny Warren. And at the time that they got married, he was actually a pretty well-known, famous Australian soccer player. And so their marriage at the time was kind of like front page news. Um, but their relationship was short-lived, and the couple divorced in 1969. Then she later married two more times and had two children along the way. So she had a daughter, Sally, who was born in 1973, and a son, Owen, who was born the following year. So in 1977, Marion married Stuart Brown, which was uh the father of Sally and Owen, but this marriage was also short-lived, and they got divorced in 1979. And then Ray Barter was her third husband, and she married him in 1985, and then they got divorced in 1990. So Marion was a dedicated and well-loved school teacher. So for her entire adult life, up until a short period of time before she leaves for the trip, she was extremely passionate about her job. And she even recently won the Queensland Teaching Excellence Award in 1996. Her daughter Sally is interviewed in a Seven News Australia documentary about this case. And Sally takes part in the Lady Vanishes podcast, so she's very much involved in this investigation. And um, she says that she did notice a slight change in her mother's in her mother around this time. Um she observed that like she she didn't really quite quite seem as happy as she was, or she wasn't as passionate about her work as she once had been. And she also wasn't getting along with some of her co-workers at the school. And there was actually some stuff that came out during the podcast and the investigation. It's like there were some allegations that had been made against Marion. I'm not going to get into them here because I don't feel like they're relevant, but there was a lot of tension at at the school in her last few months there. And there was allegations that had been made, which her family says are completely ridiculous. And it kind of appeared that it was like a subtle shift in her behavior. Like it wasn't all of a sudden she was like miserable or she was saying that she was, you know, it wasn't didn't a total 180, but it's just like small changes. Like she started to talk more and more about wanting to take some time off. She wanted to go traveling and take this like year-long trip. And she just seemed overall less passionate about teaching than she ever had been. And uh throughout her life, Marianne was known for her adventurous spirit. And she often spoke about wanting to travel. And she had for years dreamed of taking this year-long trip across Europe, like by herself. That's just always what she wanted to do. And then in like the year leading up to when she did take the trip, like she started to talk about it more and more. Um, so in 1997, at 51 years old, she finally decides to make this plan a reality and take this trip. So her plan was to leave in June of 1997. And so for months leading up to her trip, she had spoken about her plans a lot. And so when the time came, everyone in her circle knew about the trip and how excited she was for it. She talked about all the places she wanted to see, and she said she wanted to go on the Orient Express and just take that year off to just do what she had always wanted to do. Um, just days before her departure, she resigns from her position at the school where she was teaching. And in her resignation letter, she references her plans to travel and even mentioned the possibility of finding a teaching job while she was in England. And she did request to renew her teaching license for the next school year. So this did suggest that she had intentions of returning to teach in Australia at some point, even if it wasn't clear how long exactly she planned to be away. Marion's daughter Sally, she tells Seven News Australia that she did find it a bit odd that Marion had resigned in the middle of the school year rather than waiting until the school year was over. So in Australia, the school year goes from January to December. So residing in June is literally the middle of the school year. So she found that that was kind of weird. It was like she had talked about it for years. So it's like, why was it so urgent she had to go at that time? Like, why wouldn't she just wait six more months when the school year was done and just go? So I think that was something that she thought was a little bit weird, but she didn't really question it too much. Also, in the weeks leading up to her trip, Marion sold her house. So she told her family that she had the she had wanted to downsize. And so when she returned to Australia after this trip, like that was her plan, that she was gonna just find somewhere else that was smaller for her. And so selling at the time made sense to Sally and the rest of the family. Like, she's gonna be gone for a year. Why not just sell the house now? You'll have more money for your for your trip, and you're gonna downsize when you get home anyway. She placed most of her belongings into a shipping container. And Sally says that she later she kind of regretted not asking more questions about the shipping container, such as where it was going, where it was. And Marion only mentioned that if she decided to stay overseas to teach, that she would need Sally to send this container to her. She did sell her house very quickly. It was a couple of weeks' time, and she accepted less than the asking price for the house because she was just eager to finalize the sale before she left. So she actually had a loss on the house. Like she ended up selling it for less than what she had even paid for it. So it was kind of a rushed thing. So one night, like before shortly before she goes, I don't think it was like the night before or anything. I think it might have been a little bit longer than a little bit more before that, but Marion's son-in-law Chris, so this is her daughter Sally's husband, he goes over to the house to help her pack up some of her belongings. He says that the task ended very abruptly. So Marion comes over to him, she asks him what the time is, and he tells her. And then when she finds out what the time is, she's like, You have to go. Uh, she wouldn't even let him finish packing the box that he was working on. She just insisted that he leave immediately. So she kind of like rushes him out of the house. And so Chris leaves and he goes to pick up Sally and tells her what happened. And Sally thought that that was very unusual. Like her mother is not pushy or rude like that. Like it was just was very weird. Later that same night, uh, Sally and Chris they go to a McDonald's that's like attached to this gas station, and it's just a few blocks from Marion's house. They're sitting inside of the McDonald's, and they see Marion pull up in her car to one of the gas pumps. And, you know, they they wave to her through the window and they see Marion get out of her car as if she's gonna go put gas in the car. And Sally says that Marion, her mom just is kind of just standing there staring at them, kind of like a deer in the headlights. She doesn't wave back, she doesn't really acknowledge them at all. And then after she sees them, she just gets back into her car and drive and drives off. But she doesn't immediately exit the lot. Instead, she kind of drives around the back of the building and speeds through the drive-thru area. And so she passes closer to where Sally and Chris are. At the moment that she's driving and a little bit closer to them, that they can kind of see that there's someone sitting in the passenger seat, but it was just like a dark shadow. They couldn't really make out anything about this person other than that they appeared to be tall, like very tall. Their head was nearly hitting the roof of the of the car. But because of how quickly Marianne was driving, like neither of them got a good look at who this person was. Just that it was the outline of someone who appeared tall. And at the time, Sally was thinking, oh, like maybe, you know, maybe my mom's just in a new relationship. And she just didn't mention anything. She didn't want anyone to know. So she didn't really dwell on it, but she she she did bring it up to her the next day. She was like, Who is that guy? Um, to which Marion responded, quote, he's just a friend who I met through mutual friends at the art center, and he was taking me out to say goodbye. End quote. That was kind of where it ended. Then we come to June 22nd, 1997, which is the day that Marion leaves. When she leaves for her trip, her family believes that she's just embarking on this long anticipated holiday that she had talked about for years, but they didn't realize that it would be the last time that they would ever see her. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

How long did she say she was going for? Like a cost year?

SPEAKER_00 12:44

It was like I think it was about to be about a year, it was gonna be like a year.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Oh, it was a year. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Yeah. So it was gonna be a long trip. Her her her daughter Sally was at this point when she leaves, is engaged to Chris, but she did have her wedding already planned, and so she didn't really know how long her mother was gonna be gone, but she's like, just make sure you're back in time for my wedding, which was like a year away. So Marion was like, Yes, I'll be back for that. So they knew it was gonna be like probably a year or maybe less, but like a long time, basically. Multiple family members, like on the day she leaves, so her sister Bronwyn and Sally herself offers to take Marion to the airport, but she declines both of their offers. She tells her sister that she plans to stay in a Brisbane hotel for two nights before departing, and she asks her not to come to the airport. She also told Sally, like she wanted to go by herself. She said that having her family or friends there would just make the goodbye too emotional. She didn't want that. She just wanted to say goodbye to them like at the house and just go to the airport by herself. So her friend Leslie is actually the one who drives her, but she doesn't drive her to the airport. She drives her to a bus stop in Southport so that she could catch a bus to the airport. Leslie later recalls that they arrived at the bus stop quite early and they were joking about how much extra time they had. Like they didn't have to come that early. Um, but they did. So they share emotional farewell, they're both laughing, they're crying. And she also remembered that Marion had a large amount of luggage. She had two big suitcases, she had a carry-on bag, which I mean, she's going for a super long trip, so that might seem reasonable, but also she's, I don't know, like backpacking. I don't know if she's really backpacking, it's not really the word that I would use, but she's going on a big trip by herself and she has these like huge suitcases and carry-on bag. So anyway, her friend Leslie just watches her get on the bus, and she said it was like a greyhound kind of coach bus. And she watches her get on and the bus leaves. And so her friend Leslie was actually the last person that ever saw Marion before she departs Australia for her trip. When you take these accounts together, it does seem like Marion deliberately wanted to go to the airport alone. She didn't want anyone to go with her, which was just they thought weird. Like you're gonna be away from everyone for a year. Why would you not want them to take you to the airport? So that was kind of something that was weird, but at the time, I guess they didn't really think too much of it. So her flight departs at 9 38 p.m. on June 22nd, and she's headed to the UK from Australia with a layover in South Korea.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Do we know, did she actually get on the plane? Or was it all ruse?

SPEAKER_00 15:16

She does get on the plane. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

We do know that. Yeah. From the time that she departs in June, like I said, it was June 22nd, up until August, she does keep in touch periodically through postcards and through letters. So she is sending postcards and she's sending letters to her family, and they are postmarked from the UK. So, like, we know that she was there. So she's just updating them on the places that she's visiting. She appears to be enjoying herself. And so the last contact that Marianne ever does have with her family was on August 1st. And on that day, she speaks to her daughter Sally on the phone. She says everything's going well. She's, you know, she's having a great time. She mentions that she, you know, she was having tea with a group of little old ladies. That was her plan for the day. Like she was just meeting people, having a good time. But there was no, based on the conversation, Sally said that her mother was in Tunbridge Wells, which is like a small town in England. And Marion had sent postcards and letters from that area, and she seemed to be really enjoying it. So there was no indication of any danger at all or that she was traveling with anyone else. Sally says during the call, the payphone kept cutting out because, you know, at the time, obviously it's 97. You all pay phones, you don't really have a cell phone. So she had to put money in, but the money kept running out, so the call would keep dropping out. So Marion had to call her back. I think she said it's like five times. She calls her back. And so at the final time, Marion just says, you know, this is all the money I have on me right now. So like you just talk until it drops out. So I'll just listen to you talk until it just cuts out, and then that's it. So Sally says she does. She goes on, she's talking about like her wedding plans and all the stuff that's happening. Um, and then eventually the phone just cuts out, and that's the last contact that Sally ever had with her mother from that final phone call on August 1st. So that's about five weeks into this trip. So from that time, August 1st until October, there is no contact at all. And Sally says she wasn't immediately like super panicked because everything seemed fine during the phone call. It was everything was good. And she says that during that phone call, her mom had told her that she wouldn't, she kind of let her know that she would no longer be sending postcards as frequently or letters because she had been sending letters to her family, to her friends. So she was writing a lot and she said that like she was trying to enjoy her holiday. She found writing all the cards and the letters very time consuming and it was just taking up a lot of her time. So she said, you know, just so you know, I'm not going to be writing as frequently. So like you might not hear from me for a little while. So that was the only one of the main reasons why Sally wasn't really concerned going from August to October without any contact. Cause up until then, she had been hearing her from her frequently. So you'd think, oh, like she goes two months and there's nothing. It might be a little bit weird. But Sally said it's because she said that that she wasn't that worried. She was certain, however, that like her her brother Owen's birthday was on October 18th, like Sally's brother. So Marion's son, his birthday was on October 18th. And so she knew that he would she would call on his birthday. Uh Marion loved birthdays, and she was, she even sent her sister a birthday gift while she was on this trip. So like missing a birthday, it just wasn't something that she ever would do. So October 18th comes and she doesn't get a call. No one gets a call from her on that day. So that's when Sally really starts to panic and think that something is wrong. By this point, it had been over two months, so she had no idea where in Europe her mother could have been by this point. Like last she knew she was in Tunbridge Wells, but it's been two months. Who knows where she could have been in this time? She had no hotel info, no nothing. So she really had no way to like even figure out or like think about where she was. And like I said, she didn't have a cell phone, so it's not like you could just call. One thing that Sally did have, though, was she did have her mother's banking information. So she calls the bank to see if there had been any activity in her mother's account. And she tells them, you know, my mom was traveling alone overseas and she's worried. So the bank, of course, she wouldn't think could like provide any specific details because of privacy laws. But the person on the phone breaks protocol because she does say something that shocks Sally and really starts this investigation. So she asked, she says, like, Oh, you said your mother was overseas because there's money being withdrawn from her account here in Byron Bay, which is in Australia, not Europe. So this immediately raised red flags. You know, she was thinking, had someone in Byron Bay been accessing her account, or was it Marion herself that was somehow back in Australia, even though everyone thought she was still overseas? There's more detail that Sally gets. So the teller actually says to Sally that the withdrawals are significant. They're$5,000 withdrawals from the account, and they're being taken out every day for nearly three weeks. And they're all from the same area, like Byron Bay area in Australia. So after learning this shocking information, Sally and her husband go immediately to Byron Bay to report her mother missing to the police. So Byron Bay is like a beachside town. It's about 100 kilometers south from where Marion lived before she left. I think Sally says she like takes a picture of her mom and goes to like into stores in the town and like sees if anyone had seen her. I think she goes into the bank asking if any of people in the bank recognize this person, but she doesn't really get anywhere with that. So she goes to the police station and she reports her missing. She tells them that there's these large sums of money that are being taken out of her account. Sally said that there she didn't know anything that would connect her mother to Byron Bay. So that no friends, no family that she knew of that were in Byron Bay. And so pretty much from the beginning, Sally says the police didn't really seem overly concerned or they didn't seem that motivated to find Marian Barter. That's what Sally said. I kind of acted as if her mother wasn't really a priority at all. So one thing that Sally couldn't really get past was why, if the person that was withdrawing the money was her mother, why she would go to the bank every single day to take out$5,000 rather than just transferring the entire amount out. Or you can go into the teller into the bank and actually take out larger amounts than that if you're going in. Like I think the limit is probably$5,000 on the ATM machine. But if you're gonna go into the teller, like you can take up more than that. It just seems weird. Why would you do it so you have to go in every single day? Um, so that was something that she found was weird. Like if it's if you're if it's your own account, why do that? Doing that is really only makes sense if like it's someone impersonating her or somehow got her information and they're like fraudulently taking this money out, and you can only do it in those smaller chunks. But then also, like, that also didn't help. Like if it was her mother, though, why had she returned to Australia without telling anyone and making them all think that she was in Europe? Like she never once had told them. Like the last she heard she was in England and she had didn't tell them at any time that she was planning to come home. So there was also a lot of confusion in this case as to whether it was$5,000 with. Or$500. Sally says that she vividly remembers the teller at the bank said it was$5,000 every day. But there are documents that come up during the inquest that show it was$500. And ultimately the coroner from the inquest came to the following conclusion. It says, quote, I find that the sums withdrawn from Marion's account were likely$500 per withdrawal for the following reasons. The ATM limit was$500. There were memos that list multiple transactions of$500 from Byron Bay and Burley Heads, including two transactions on the same day of$500 on August 18th, 1997. Between the 23rd and 28th of August of 1997, there's a transaction of$500 being withdrawn each day. If the sum was$5,000 rather than$500 and attendance at the bank counter was required, then it's difficult to understand why amounts greater than$5,000 were not withdrawn to obviate the requirement for multiple attendances at the bank counter, particularly on August 18th, 1997. End quote. So that's from the inquest. So uh the coroner is basically saying the conclusion is that it's 500 a day, not 5,000.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

But also, like, wouldn't well,$5,000 a day is a lot. Like, wouldn't the family be like, does she have that much money in her account? Like a school teacher, have like tens of thousands of dollars just to like withdraw?

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Well, she sold her house before she left.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

I guess. I guess. But then she kept all the money, like she didn't owe money. So I guess maybe not, but it just seems it's a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Yeah. Like she did have, like, according to Sally, she did have a lot of money in her account. Like she had saved a lot. Yeah, she was a school teacher, so she's not like raking in the money, but Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

So even if they even if she did take out$5,000 a day, that would be something that could have been done.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

Yeah. So it was like over three weeks. So I think it would be like close to$100,000 if it was$5,000 a day. So yeah, it's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

That's so Yeah. It's weird because like if it was if it was someone trying to like impersonate her, and if i I guess you're saying it wasn't$5,000 a day. But like, yeah, why not just take out$100,000 and then get the hell out of there rather than being like, let's just take out a little bit every day. Because it's you're gonna get caught, it seems, way sooner if you're there for like three weeks every day.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

I think from this, like Sally is thinking that like that's what makes her think that it was it was someone impersonating her mother. Because yeah, like if it's someone who's not actually Mary and you can't go into the bank, they probably would ask for ID. Like they're gonna get caught that it's not actually you. So that would be like really the only explanation. Because if it was Marion going in herself, like, yeah, like you said, why not just take out like you can go in and take out way more than the daily ATM limit if you wanted. And obviously, she's someone who wants, like, if it's her, she wants this money. She's taking it out consistently. It's just easier. Just go one in one time and take it all out. It's just very weird. Yeah. So, like I said, it's not clear exactly how much it was. Like Sally to this day says it was 5,000. That's what the that's what the teller told me, but the inquests concluded it was 500. But either way, it's money that's being withdrawn from her account every day for nearly three weeks. One thing that comes up, so a short time after Sally reported her mother missing to the Byron Bay police, she says that she gets a call from them. During that call, she was told that her mother had been located, but that Marianne did not want anyone to know where she was or what she was doing. And, you know, you could think, okay, case closed, like maybe this is a voluntary disappearance. However, Byron Bay police had no record of ever making that phone call, or there was no documentation suggesting that Marianne had ever been located at that time. So that discrepancy raised immediate questions. But Sally says she knows she got a call. This was like a short time after, maybe we a month or two. So it'd still be like late 1997, maybe early 1998, but no records from the police department ever at that time ever documented. It didn't mean it didn't happen. Like maybe they did call her and they just didn't document it. But there's no proof to like show that. This documentary, the seven news documentary that I was talking about, kind of brings up the question like, is it possible that it wasn't the police who made that call? Like maybe it was someone impersonating law enforcement in an attempt to mislead Sally and her family to throw them off the trail. So that's like something that they bring up in that documentary.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

But that's what I was thinking. Someone same person that was taking the money out.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Yeah. And so, like, of course, and like Sally didn't think at the time to like get a name from the person who was calling or like a badge number or anything, right? Like you're not thinking that really. So you you assume, oh, it's the police. So you're gonna just take the call. And they're like, Yep, she's been found, she's safe, but she just doesn't want anyone to know where she is. So but Sally didn't really believe that, or like, you know, so she still continues this investigation for a long time after this. So again, months after Marion had initially gone missing, Sally does learn a crucial piece of information. So she actually learns that her mother returned to Australia on August 2nd, which is just one day after that final phone call that she got from her. And shortly after that, beginning on August 15th, money was starting to be withdrawn from her account in Australia. So that was a big discovery in and of itself. And what but one of the biggest discoveries in this whole case was the fact that Marion had actually been keeping a huge secret in the months before her trip and her disappearance. So it actually comes out that Marion had legally changed her name prior to leaving for her trip. So she changed it to Florabella Natalia Marion Ramical. And evidence shows that the legal name change took place on May 13th, 1997.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Jesus, what a complicated name.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Yeah. And it's a significant. Yeah. Well, it does because she submits an application for a new passport under that name just on May 16th. So this is like a month before she left for her trip. According to the inquest, the passport application was witnessed by dentist Raymond Walduck at a Brisbane Health Clinic. Because obviously, no one in her family, like if she didn't want anyone to know she's changing her name, no one in her family is gonna be like the signatory or like the guarantor of this passport. So the application was witnessed by this dentist. So given that this occurred more than two decades ago, so this is all like a lot of the stuff that's coming out is all stuff that was discovered years after. So this isn't back in '98, they're learning this. Like, I think Sally didn't even learn about the name change until 2011, which is like 14 years after she had already gone missing. So I'm not giving you the events like exactly in order, just because it's all years later. But anyway, so given that all of this occurred more than two decades ago by the time they're like talking to this dentist, um, he says that he routinely witnessed many passport applications in his role. And his says his rec recollection is limited. He suggested the application might simply have been brought into his practice and that he likely checked her details to confirm whether he knew her well enough to meet the required three-year acquaintance condition before signing. But I don't really get how if it was her dentist, he knows her as one name.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

But wait. Yeah. The dentist's saying I see lost the passports. Like I see lots of passports. Yeah, like a lot of people ask him, or a lot of people ask the dentist's office to be the guarantor. That's so I never would have.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

I would never think to ask my dentist to sign him.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

I guess that's a good point.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

I guess. Yeah. Because I think it just has to be someone, like, I don't think it can be family, can it? Like it has to be a witness, but it can't be someone who knows. Like it has to be like a training.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

I actually talked about this yesterday. And like back back years ago, like it had to be someone, it had to be a doctor, a priest, or it had to be a a mayor. That's what it had to be back then. Like in the 80s at least. Someone told me that. So maybe a dentist, a doctor, a nurse. Yeah. Like a mess.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

So yeah. Just someone, and they don't have to say that they like know a ton about you, just that they know you. And they're like confirming that it's but I don't really get it because if she if that was if he was her dentist, he knew her as one name, wouldn't it be like weird? Oh.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

But maybe he's not looking at it that much. He's just looking, oh, Marion dropped this thing off. Can you sign it? Like you're not looking, I don't know. You're not really looking at it in depth that much, maybe you're just like, he didn't know that she had changed her name either.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Like he didn't she didn't tell him.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

I don't know. He just signed the passport, the new passport or the application for the new passport. So I don't really know what that would look like. I'm assuming I'm assuming it would have the name on it.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

The name of the new She'd have to be like, yeah, I know this person and sign it. It'd be weird that like he knew.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

But if she comes in and he knows her.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

Yeah. And she's signed up. Like he might not be looking at it. He changed she changed it'd be weird that if he knew he changed she changed her name and then she he goes, he knows that the kids are looking for and doesn't know if volume the information. Well, she changed her name before she left.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Yeah, he didn't know. He doesn't know.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Like clearly. Yeah. It's weird.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Yeah. Cause they're like talking to him during the inquest, I think, which is like in 2021. So this is like years after, like 20 years. And so by that point, he's like, Well, I signed lots of application. Like our passport application. Like, so I probably like if she came in with this application and asked me to sign it, it's like, well, I know her. So we see gonna like look through it and be like, oh, why is your name different? Like, I don't think you're signing it, right? It's probably busy, has a million things to do, he doesn't care, really. So that's I guess what I took from that. But but yeah, but basically the point is like it's a little bit more than a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Or he could have, or like she might not have even filled it out at that time. Like it could have been like, Can you just sign this and then I'll add my name and stuff to it later?

SPEAKER_00 31:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Right?

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Yeah, maybe that's true. That's true. If she wanted to like keep it, yeah, hospital.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Yeah, I yeah. I I doubt he knew that the name was changed. I feel like he would volunteer that to the family, to the kids, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Yeah, because he would have had and also at the time he would have had to think, like, okay, I know Marion, but this passport is that the application has a different name on it. Yeah, yeah. Why am I signing this a different name? Yeah, yeah. So, and he obviously never knew her by that name. Like he knew her by Marion, like her actual name. Yeah. And there's no evidence to suggest that anyone in Marion's life was ever was ever aware of this name change prior to its discovery in the investigation. So, like, no one knew this. Anyway, like I said, Sally and the family had only discovered this information that she changed her name in 2011. So that's 14 years after she disappeared. So they didn't even know that for the first 14 years. And around the same time that she changed her name in '97, she also did get a driver's license in this new name. So she has a passport, a driver's license. And the new name bore no significance to Sally or the rest of the family. And it's not even a common name in Australia at that time. Like the last name Ramakel, they're like, we have no idea what that is, Florabella, whatever the name is. Like really weird. But it is significant, which I'll get into. But they also, as part of the investigation, they look at Marion's outgoing passenger card. So when she gets on the plane or when she's leaving, she had to fill out this card, like a customs card, I guess. And on that card, she states that she was a divorced Australian national departing permanently to Luxembourg. She lists her occupation as home duties and signed the card using her new name. Her passenger card had had S slash Korea written in handwriting, kind of like to indicate the layover was in South Korea. In a letter that Sally got from her mother early on in the trip, Marion said that, quote, I find finally arriving in England after a most interesting visit to the East, end quote. And so from this, we can assume she had a layover in South Korea on her way to Europe. So because of the S Korea written on that, that's how they assume that. Like she never said that in a letter that she was in South Korea, but you put two and two together, that's what you get. They looked at Marion's incoming passenger card on August 2nd, so when she's coming back into Australia. And it differed slightly from her outgoing one. She arrived at 10 11 a.m. on a Cathay Pacific flight. She had a layover in Hong Kong on her way back, and she indicates on her card that she was married and described herself as a visitor to Australia with a permanent residence in Luxembourg. Once again, she listed her occupation as home duties.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Did she have all the bags with her still? The same amount of bags? I don't know why I existed.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Dying to know that information for some reason.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Yeah, I don't know. Um Yeah, was she alone?

SPEAKER_01 34:11

Did she have someone with her on the way back?

SPEAKER_00 34:15

So no, there's no indication that there was anyone with her, based on the evidence, and we'll get into that a little bit later. But she s stated that her intended length of visit was in Australia was eight days, and that she was there to visit friends and family. Um and she lists some hotel in Brisbane as her address in Australia. And one thing that Sally mentioned that she found interesting, not like it's a major thing, but just interesting, was like she's like checking off all these things, like single, married, all this stuff, um gender, all this stuff. The check mark next to married was very exaggerated. It was bigger, it was bolder. The other check marks were just little ticks. But the one for married was like very exaggerated and bigger. So it was just something that Sally took note of. And also after this date, so after August 2nd, when she gets back into Australia with this passport, the passport's never used again after that. That was the last activity on it. Very weird. So it says that she like so her outgoing card said that she was leaving permanently to Luxembourg. She never mentioned that to her family, that she was moving there. Her occupation wasn't home duties, like she's not a stay-at-home mom. She was a teacher. Why wouldn't she put that? Um, and then on the way back, like, and but on the way out, she said she was divorced, and on the way back, she says she's married. So she got married in Europe, and then she's coming back. But then she says in the on the card coming back in that she's visiting friends and family. Well, no, she wasn't, because no one even knew she was back. So very, very weird. So the revelation that Marion had been back in Australia since at least early August was a shock to Sally and the family. And the discovery that she had changed her name was obviously even more shocking. Sally, during all of this, and maybe even before, because like I said, they didn't find out about that till 2011. But Sally's like reviews every letter and postcard that she gets from her mother during this five weeks that she's overseas, because looking for like any maybe clue. And there's one particular letter that becomes especially significant significant to the case. So, according to the inquest report, on June 30th, 1997, so this was only like eight days after Marion had left, uh, Sally received a letter from Marion that presented conflicting clues about her whereabouts. So the stationery was from the Hotel Nico Narita in Japan. So that was written on the paper, the name of this hotel. So, like she got it from this hotel. Um, the envelope was postmarked in Tonbridge Wells, England. So that's where she had sent it from. In the letter, Marion described arriving in England after a quote, interesting visit to the East, end quote, like I said, noting that her trip had been somewhat burdened by excess luggage. She even realized she had too much luggage at this point. And she said she planned to stay in the area briefly before continuing on through Europe. One key question that comes up in all of this, and still remains, is when and where Marion got that hotel stationery with the name of that Japanese hotel on it. And then it becomes significant later because of a particular person of interest that we'll get into. But that was something that Sally noticed, like, oh, this she was never in Japan. Like she didn't have a layover in Japan. She was in Europe. Why does she have this stationery from this hotel in Japan? So based on Marion's name change and the details on this incoming passenger card, it appears that Marion remarried someone while she's in Europe. But this created more questions and answers, just like everything else. Like, was she already in a relationship with someone before she left Australia and then she just traveled to Europe with them or she met them there, maybe? Or did she meet someone while she was overseas in that five-week period and like marry really quickly? Was it a relationship that had been developing for a long time beforehand? Like so many questions. So the name Ramako, the last name that she changed her name to, would later become significant as it became tied to a major discovery that gets actually is made by a web sleuth years later. At the time of this particular discovery, the case wasn't widely known. This is before the podcast. So this is before 2019 when it became really popular. But Sally did have a Facebook page about the case at the time and had like under a thousand followers at the time. But there was someone who had been following it from early on who is doing their own investigation because the police are useless, basically. The WebSleuth had been who had been closely following this case came across a personal advertisement in The Courier Australian, which is a French-English newspaper published in Australia. The advertisement is dated from 1994 and it's written in French and featured someone identified as Monsieur Ramacal, who was seeking a partner. So that last name. So she starts to do her own deep dive into this name. So she actually discovers that there's only 104 individuals with that surname in the world. So narrows down, possibly, like, because she thinks there is a connection between, because it's a very uncommon last name and it's from Australia, this our ad. So she's just thinking, like, what is the possibility? 1994, this ad is placed, and her mom changes her last name three years later to that same last name. So she's just kind of looking into it. She identifies, so out of those 104 individuals with that surname, she does identify one person who matches the approximate age that's described in the advertisement. So in 94, I think he says he's 47. So she's able to find someone who's like around that age. And also because the advertisement said that it was a tall person, she starts to think if this could have been this tall man that she had seen in the car with her mother, like that couple nights before she left. Um, like maybe Marianne had answered that ad in 1994 and had been like in a relationship with this person all the way up till right before she left. And then she comes back married. Like it's just a lot of things that are maybe starting to add up. One thing that actually really like makes her think there's a connection is because the individual that she finds that she narrows it down to lives in Luxembourg, which is that same place that Marianne had written that she was moving to on her outgoing passenger card. And then she again referenced on her incoming passenger card. So to Sally, this connection did not feel like a coincidence. So Sally ends up traveling to Luxembourg to locate this man. His name is Monsieur Fernand Ramekel. She actually goes to his home, uh, she shows up there, and he strongly denies knowing anything about Marian Barter. And he says, I have no idea what you're talking about. He called and he ends up calling the police on her. But it isn't a red herring at all. So although this Ferdinand Ramekel himself was not considered a person of interest, he ends up telling the police something that is very interesting to Sally. So he tells police that in the late 1980s his identity had been stolen by a man that he knew as Rick Blum. He alleged that Rick Blum was a serial con man who had an affair with his wife and subsequently stole his identity. They do find this Rick Blum like later on. He denies ever having an affair with Ramakel's wife. However, there are love letters between Blum and Fernand's wife that get provided during the inquest that prove that it was true, that he did have an affair with his wife. There was also evidence showing that he had left that Rick Blum had left his home in Europe in 1969 to begin a new life in Australia, using the name Fernand Ramakel in 1988 to obtain a driver's license there. So you have a man who allegedly steals someone's identity in Luxembourg, then relocates to Australia in 1969, and then uses that name, Fernand Ramakel, to obtain a driver's license. And then in 1994, someone in that same region of Australia places a personal ad using that name. And then just a few years later in 1997, Marion changes her name, that her surname to Ramakel. So when can you consider all of these things together? And on the surface, it suggests a definite connection and raises the possibility that Marion may have been in a relationship with Rick Balum for some time prior to her trip, but she kept that relationship hidden from everyone in her life. This theory also fits with a series of events that followed. So Marian selling her home, resigning from her job, traveling overseas, and then returning to Australia in a way that was deliberately discreet without contacting anyone. So at this point, the direction of the investigation begins to shift, and locating Rick Blum becomes a primary focus of this case. Any questions so far? Any thoughts before I get into this next part?

SPEAKER_01 42:39

So my first thought was that she was leaving with a guy, like a secret guy. That's what I thought. So I was I'd rather shock to see to hear that she got married, but I just like her behavior, like why not tell her family, I guess? So like that's just weird. Her behavior before she left is very is odd. Yeah, there's a lot going on there. It's like I don't know. And yeah, my thought too was that she didn't meet up with somebody or she was going with someone. Just seems like a big long trip to do by herself. Like you don't want anyone to drop you off at the airport. Why? Because you probably don't want them to see who you're leaving with. That's why that's why I always thought. Like it's like, why does she want anyone to know? That's the weird part. It's like why? Either he he's like, don't tell anybody, which is sketchy. But now if he was this current artist and she's maybe like she I don't know, like he called it to like keeping it a secret or something. I don't know. Well yeah, and it's like he didn't want anyone to see him because like he had this whole plan all along to do something, and he didn't want people to be able to identify him. It's like you can't see me because I'm gonna be stealing your mom's money later for days, so you know.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

But it's just weird that yeah, like she wouldn't she wouldn't have told anyone. Like, why would she like if she had been dating him since nineteen ninety four? Why not just tell because then by the time she's taken this trip. It's like, oh, you guys are taking a trip, you've been together for three years, I can take a trip. No one would even think anything of it. So it's just weird that she would be so secretive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

Yeah. And like when you said she was like staring like a deer in headlights, just like I don't know, that was that's just weird. It's creepy. But is this guy, is this Vic Blum guy really tall? Who's that tall guy in the car? I wonder.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

Yeah. I mean they sh they sh they do show him like what he looks like now in the documentary. Like I didn't think he was particularly tall, but he's also like 80 something years old now, so he's like like slouched over, so he didn't seem really tall. But um they said that he looked there was someone in that car who looked really tall, and like the ad specifically says tall man, which they thought was weird. But then it's really the Luxembourg connection in there that really set it all off. Like um this this Ramakel guy lives in Luxembourg, has a connection to Luxembourg, the same place. Like Luxembourg's not like a like it's a random place, right? Of all the places. So it's just interesting. Um so it's just a lot of questions. Like as Sally is discovering all this information, it's like all this stuff that like she didn't know that her mother was like seeing anyone or like all this stuff, and then you and then you start like looking back, like what were the were there any signs that I missed and all this stuff. Like her selling her house, like again, in retrospect sounds weird, but like at the time she's like, Oh, I'm gonna downsize when I get back anyway. Like, why not just sell it now? So I don't have to worry about it, and then have the money, like extra money for my trip kind of thing. So like everyone's like, Yeah, that makes sense. Um, and then she resigned from her job and all this stuff, so yeah. But anyway, like I said, locating this Rick Blum guy becomes the primary focus of the investigation. The police eventually do locate Blum, and he lives in Byron Bay, Australia. And he denies ever knowing Marion or having any involvement in her case at all. But during the inquest, which is during like from 2021 to 2024, he's interviewed several times. He spends several days on the deposition or being deposed or whatever. And eventually during this inquest, he does acknowledge that he had an affair with Marion for over a f for a for a four-month period around the time that she left for her European trip in 1997. He says that they met when he answered an ad in the local paper from a woman looking for a partner. So it wasn't that she he had put an ad in, it was he was saying that he had answered an ad that she had put in. But in one of his first conversations with the police, so I guess the first time that they ever locate him to talk with him, he mentions that he actually first met Marion way back in the late 1960s. The inquest reads in part, quote, in Mr. Blum's first statement to investigating police, he said he was in Switzerland and met a woman by the name of Marion. He said that Marion was very old-fashioned in her look, particularly in regard to her dress and her hair. He says that she approached him in the lobby of his hotel and they had a brief sexual encounter, spending two nights together at his hotel. He says that Marion informed him that her husband played soccer for Australia at the time and was part of a football training camp. Now remember, her first husband was a famous soccer player. So at this time, Mr. Blum was known as Willie Wooters. He says that he probably told Marion his name was Willie, though he could not be sure. He further said that they did not keep in contact after this encounter. However, when questioned on his first meeting with Marion in 1997, he did not recall realizing that the woman he met was the same woman he met in Switzerland over 30 years prior. End quote. For a while, there's like kind of this thought that, like, oh, maybe they knew each other since this early, like since the late 60s and that they had been like seeing each other for like 30 years, like off and on. Like this is a really like long-term relationship. But ultimately, this statement that he says about meeting in Switzerland does contradict the later statements that he makes that he only met her in 1997 for their brief affair during the inquest. So therefore, this earlier encounter from the 60s, it's not considered factual and is mostly chalked up to just being a lie by Rick Blum. Um, furthermore, there is no evidence to suggest that Marion was ever in Switzerland in 1968, the year of the alleged encounter. So for whatever reason, he's like making that up or something. I don't know why. So what he says the first time was like, Oh, I knew a Marion. Well, first he says he doesn't know anything. Then he says, Oh, I did know Marion back in the 60s. We had like a fling for a couple days in Switzerland. And then during the inquest, he eventually says, Oh yeah, we were together in the 90s. But then didn't put together that he had told them. So I don't know. So there was still kind of a lot of like mystery there of like whether they actually did know each other from the 1960s or whether that was just a lie. But from the inquest, like it's kind of just assumed that it's it's just a lie.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

So what's his real name then? Is it Willie? Uh Willie Wooters or Blum?

SPEAKER_00 48:47

Um I get into that. Oh god. I go there's a whole section about his life. Willie Wooters.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

Um Okay, yeah. So when he says he had an affair with her like recently, was he married? Like he was having an affair cheating on his wife, or yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

He was. Oh, okay. Yeah. In the nine yeah, 97, yes. Okay. In the 90s, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

So do they ever talk to his wife?

SPEAKER_00 49:14

Does she ever say he was like a sketchy guy or they do, yes, they do talk to his wife is on the stand to testify during the inquest for a couple days as well. So yeah, and I'll and she contradicts a lot of her statements, contradict a lot of what he says. Regarding their 1997 affair, that we can assume is legitimate. Um Rick Blum says that he was present while Marion was selling her home and recalled seeing the for sale sign outside. So, according to him, they only saw each other about three times. And in his police interview, he described these three separate visits to Marion's home. The first was when the house was for sale, the second was after it had been sold, and the third was when she was packing to move. However, his timeline shifted when he later testified in court. He initially placed the meetings in February, March, and then April or May, but then revised his account, said that the first meeting was in March instead of February. And when questioned about the inconsistency, he conceded that he wasn't sure. He just said, doesn't clearly remember. It's been years. So a lot of what he says is like contradictory to other things he says. So I don't really know what it was. But he says he only saw her like three times in the in '97. He said that after their third meeting, he ended the relationship because of his wife and children. And he says that the last time he saw Marion was three weeks before she left for her UK trip. Uh, and he says that that was when she came over to his house to collect some tea chests that she was storing at his house. And he says that when she came to his home that day, that she was with a man in uniform, quote, who he took to be a Navy officer or a pilot, end quote. So who is this person? I don't know. Does he even exist? I think a lot of people kind of assume that it was just him trying to like put out other doubt, like, oh, there's she was with another man, like, as a way to like make it think that this other person could have done something or that that other person was the last one to see her instead of him.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

It's like when these con people, like, or these people have like lied the whole life and they do an inquest, like, I don't care what you have to say. I don't believe anything you say. I don't like I don't care. Like it's not important to me what he has to say. You know what I mean? Like, how are you supposed to believe it?

SPEAKER_00 51:26

Yeah, you can't.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

I wouldn't. Or you just like contradict yourself and say random stuff. Like you think people aren't gonna catch on that you're saying different shit to different people at different times? Like or even I don't know. If they probably just don't even they're so used to lying and that they don't even think about it, probably.

SPEAKER_00 51:42

And yeah, like you and you're gonna say something, but you don't know that they also have records from earlier that contradict what you just said, like forgetting what you even said in your original statement. So I guess if you're gonna lie, it'd at least make it a consistent story. Yeah, so like I said, Blum said that he told his wife about the affair with Marion back in 97 when it happened. But she contradicts this. She says during the inquest that she didn't know anything about Marion Barter until 2021, which is when Rick was called to the police station for the first time for questioning about the case. Like again, I don't believe anything he says. So uh if he says he told her in 1997, I don't think he did, because his wife's like, nope, I had no idea. This name was not familiar to me at all. Blum was also saying that Marion did not know him by Fernand Ramacle. Um, and he wasn't he said he wasn't using that name at the time in '97 when they had this affair. And that he says that he introduced himself to her using his real name. But if that's the case, then the question was like, how do you explain that she that he had a driver's license in that name? Because remember, I said he in 98 he got a license in that name. And it's the same name that Marion then changes her own name to. Like that would be a major coincidence if it's not related. She changes it to Ramakel, even though she doesn't know this name at all, and he never said that was his name. So how do you explain that? The inquest actually does address this. The qu inquest reads in part quote, Mr. Blum said that the license, so that license that he got in 88, uh, remained in his wallet from 1988 for a period of nine years until around 1997. He said he only used the license on one occasion when he placed the advertisement in Sydney. So in the newspaper. He said that he no longer has the license and could not recall the last occasion he had the license and informed the court that he thought he lost it. He said the license was not in his wallet when he went overseas in mid-1997. Mr. Blum accepted a connection between Marion's change of name and his license in the name of Ramakel. He said as much in response to a question on this topic, quote, but obviously she must have got hold of that license, end quote. Counsel assisting submitted that the only rational basis for Marion's change of name to Floribella, Natalia, Marion Ramakel is that she was in a relationship with Mr. Blum, that she that he represented himself to her as Fernand Nauculus Ramacel, and that she decided, either on her own is insistence or on his to change her name to reflect his surname and to share his initials. Mr. Blum denies this proposition. He said that Marianne called him Rick in their 1997 meeting and that he used the name he was, quote, wearing at the time, end quote. So I guess the implication here is that Rick Blum is trying to suggest that, like, oh, well, she when I was with her for that short period in 97, she stole my she stole that out of my wallet. She stole this driver's license and saw the last name that I had had from when I stole that other guy's identity. And that's why she had that last name. Not that like it was because they were married or that they were in a relationship, like, whatever. So that was his explanation for that.

SPEAKER_01 54:39

So seems sus.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

Yeah, he said he only used the license one time. So why would you go through the effort of getting a driver's license to that name and then never use it ever? Yeah. And he says the only time he ever used that name was for that newspaper ad that he put in in 1994. So he does say that it was him that put that ad in in 1994.

SPEAKER_01 54:59

I was gonna say, didn't he say like it was her that put the ad in and she handed it? Yo.

SPEAKER_00 55:04

Yeah, so like again, like this inquest goes it there's so much detail in this inquest, so it's like a lot of contradictory facts, like what he initially had said and then what he changes it to. So like I think a little it was hard to like get a coherent narrative out of it because like also the inquest isn't like chronological, really, like it goes jumps a lot, so yeah, it's very confusing to make like a narrative out of it, but yeah, so he makes multiple different statements at multiple different times. So I guess take that with what you will. But I feel like if you're telling the truth, you don't have to change your story ten times, but that's just me. I mean, it was like he's saying, Oh, it's been decades now, like I don't remember the details. So he's like, Oh, if I said that before, it's because I was confused.

SPEAKER_01 55:47

And so you didn't know and he was just saying stuff. Like, just say you don't know the first time, so you're not like and then you still don't know, so you just say something else that wasn't the same. Like, just doesn't make sense. If you don't know, say you don't know.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

Yeah. At this point in this story, like I'm gonna go into his background because I think it's becomes very important in like interp interpreting interpreting a lot of what happens in the case and like just gives you a better idea of like who this man is and some of the other allegations that have been made against him. Rick Blum was born Willie Wooters. So that is his real name. Um Rick Blum was born Willie Wooters in 1939 in Ternai, Belgium. And so, according to an article by CNN, Blum stated that, quote, he spent time in an orphanage before being returned to his mother and taking the name of her new husband, Wooters, end quote. From there, his early identity was just the beginning of what would become a lifetime of shifting names and personas. His movements between Europe and Australia between the 1960s and the 80s add another layer of complexity to his story. So he first moves to Australia in 1969, but then a year later he leaves Australia again. Then he returns in 74 and becomes an Australian citizen in 1976 under the name Frederick de Hedervari. By that time, he was married, but he soon departs again. He spent several years living in Luxembourg and Belgium and the UK. And then in 1986, he returns back to Australia, I guess, for the final time, with his wife and two children. And then two years after that is when he gets that driver's license under the name Fernand Ramakal, as I mentioned before. When you kind of go into Rick Blum's history, there's a consistent and calculated pattern in his personal relationships. So he would often seek out women who were vulnerable, so those who were lonely, divorced, widowed, and he would build trust quickly, sometimes leading to marriage. So he would then propose elaborate plans to purchase a home together in far-off locations like Bali or the south of France, or sometimes he would say in Luxembourg. And he encouraged his partners to quit their jobs and sell their homes to fund the move. Once they would sell their homes and hand over the money, he would then disappear with the money. So in one documented case, there's a woman named Guillaine who responded to an ad that he had placed in the paper. And then they kind of have this like whirlwind relationship, and she sells her home and gives them more than 300,000 euros to finance their future. He vanishes with the money and just leaves her with nothing, basically. So that was just one example. And this inquest goes into like just like 20 pages of like all these different women that he basically did very similar things to. So he's like a con artist, a scammer.

SPEAKER_01 58:22

I was just gonna say it's a classic con man MO.

unknown 58:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:28

Yeah. Um, and over the decades, Blum develops a reputation as con man. He targets women, defrauds him of all the significant sums of money. And it's ultimately believed that it's like totaling in the millions at this point. Like he's just living off the millions that he had scammed, allegedly, from these women. And his criminal record stretches back to at least 1965 and includes charges such as fraud, embezzlement, larceny, drug offenses, and he had multiple stints in jail. But fully tracing his history is really challenging because the the criminal records are scattered across several European countries and they're tied to a staggering number of aliases. So it's more than 50 different aliases in total. So he has including Willie Coppinole, Rich Richards, Freddie David, Fernand Ramacle. Like there's literally 50. And I think the inquest like lists all of them. So it's just so many. So that's why it's really hard to like know exactly how many charges he had, because half of them are like in different names, and there might still be aliases we don't know are his that are still in the records, but they're not tied to him necessarily. During the inquest, he explained that his use of aliases was quote, fantasy because it was legal, end quote. That's what he said.

SPEAKER_01 59:38

Is it legal to have an alias and just go by different names whenever you want? That's not legal. What does it say now? What is that it's fantasy because it's legal? What does that mean? Yeah. It was legal. What would it be then? Not fantasy?

SPEAKER_00 59:48

Well, I mean, I don't think it's like it's I don't think like to tell someone you're have a different name is not illegal. Only if you're like filing false for things that are like false.

SPEAKER_01 59:58

Yeah, so he didn't have like documentation that that was his name. He just told people.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

I guess that's yeah, like some of the aliases, like maybe not all of them are like documented, but like based on like women that they've interviewed and talked with, like these are the names that he said he went by. But like it doesn't mean he has like a passport in every one of those names or like something. But I mean he definitely does have like he has a driver's license and a fake name, so that's definitely legal for sure. So this next section here actually came up in it, it's not mentioned at all in the inquest because it is kind of specul speculative, but it is mentioned in the seven news documentary that they do on this case, and they're like pretty legit. So that's why I wanted to cover it because like it didn't really come up anywhere else. And I was like, is this really like legit? But like they mention it, so I figured I I should, it's just interesting. There are theories out there that suggest that Rick Blum may have been connected to the Brayband Killers, which is a criminal gang that's responsible for a series of violent crimes in Belgium. And all of those crimes remain unsolved to this day, or many of them do. So Rick Blum is noted to resemble one of the group's alleged leaders, so described as a tall man with a limp and nicknamed the giant. So this leader of this gang, who's like kind of unknown and sort of no one really knows who it is, they say it's a tall person with a limp, and they nicknamed him the giant. And Rick Blum was again the tall reference. Um the gang is linked to at least 28 murders between 1982 and 1985. And so, although, like I said, Rick Blum emigrated to Australia in the 60s, he wasn't believed to have been in the Aust in Australia during those years. Like in 1986, which is a year after the gang's last known activities, he reappears in Australia with his wife and his children and remains there permanently. So it's like during the time, like between 82 and 85, he is in Europe. He's not in Australia. And then 86 happens after the gang like goes quiet, he comes back to Australia. So the timing is also kind of interesting. Rick Blum is not considered a suspect in that investigation into this gang, but the timing and the overlaps have raised questions. So take that with a grain of salt, as you will. Like I said, it's not, it's just speculative. It's not he's not considered a suspect, but it's just interesting. And so I kind of looked into that gang too, because there's a whole thing on them too. So it's just interesting. Then the Seven News Australia documentary also gets some further insight about Blum from his estranged daughter, Evelyn. Blum marries Evelyn's mother in Belgium in 1969, which was his third marriage by that point. Evelyn's mother was just 19 years old at the time. But their relationship ends kind of quickly, and Evelyn kind of grows up unaware of who her real father is or, you know, anything about him. And then it's when she's a teenager, she actually learns about him through this chance at conversation that she has with her stepfather, and she later tracks down his phone number. So after her mother dies, she makes contact with Rick Blum to, you know, meet who this her real father is, and they arrange to meet up in Melbourne. During this meeting, he described himself as an international coin dealer who made substantial money buying and selling coins. And then interestingly, the phone number that's listed in the 1994 newspaper ad that first led Sally to Rick Blum was linked to a coin business in Ballina, Australia, which is operated under an alias that was known to have been used by Rick Blum. So again, there's another connection there. This coin dealer, there's this coin business. So a lot of like connections. But despite reconnecting, Blum says that he never knew that he had a daughter from this marriage to Evelyn's mother. He said he wasn't even aware of her death until Evelyn told him. So Evelyn describes how he would boast about his past, he would talk about disturbing stories about acts of violence that he and his associates would commit. He said that some of that included burying people alive with hungry cats as a form of revenge against people. Um he also spoke in detail about what he described as the art of killing without leaving a trace, particularly through poisoning. So he would say that if you poison them with a the specific thing in their food or drink, it would cause flu-like symptoms and death within a few weeks. So it wouldn't happen instantly, like a week after the poisoning, they would start to get the flu symptoms. And then a week after that, they would die. And then what's interesting is in this interview with Evelyn, she does say that her mother died at age 31. And the autopsy report states that she died about a week after reporting flu-like symptoms to her doctor. So sketchy. So Evelyn also alleged that Rick Blum had told her that he was preparing life insurance documents for, quote, some people, end quote, to sign, and that he planned to take care of them and split the payout with her. So, like life insurance fraud, basically. Although she said she wanted to refuse immediately, she said she was like really frightened of him and she was hesitant. Like if she rejected him, what would happen? She did ultimately say no. Um, and then shortly after he disappeared from her life. Uh, but their final interaction was particularly unsettling. So she picks him up at the airport one time, and he gives her this bottle of champagne because he had planned to stay come over for dinner. So he says, Go take the champagne home, put it in the fridge, and wait for me to come over for dinner. Um, but then so he gets she drops him off somewhere, he gets out of the car, she never sees him again. He doesn't show up, and his phone is disconnected. Um, she never opened the bottle. Instead, she writes poison in large block letters on the bottle and puts it on top of her fridge because she thinks that he's trying to like poison her after she refuses to participate in this like life insurance scheme. So yeah, she says more than 20 years later, like at the time of the interview, she had never seen him again after that. After the incident, she brought the bottle to a police station and reports that someone was trying to poison her, but the police never tested it and they never took her seriously. So that's where that ends. But yeah, just sketchy. Weird. That's interesting. I don't know. I don't know how if there's any relation to all this stuff happening with Marianne and like her case, but like it's just interesting when you hear all that information, and like it this doesn't seem like someone who's a particularly good person, I wouldn't say. Any thoughts about that before I go back to Marianne's case?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:51

Willie Wooder definitely did it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:57

Um that was his life, just like conning people. And like changing names and like doing crazy shit and like poisoning people, like this crazy shit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:06

Yeah. And like who knows if he was in that gang or not? But like if he was, like, it's scary. But then he's like telling Evelyn, like, oh, I we would like bury people alive. We'd like hungry cats. We'd bury them with hungry cats and like just like so he's like telling her this information. I don't know. It's just yeah. Obviously he's someone who's like also very arrogant, like doesn't think he's ever gonna get caught, right? Like he's done it so long, yeah. I mean, he did go to jail and he was charged with other stuff, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:36

But yeah, he's obviously never like found guilty of murder because he nothing's ever tied to him, really, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:43

So Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:44

Like concretely tied.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:47

Yeah. Another thing, too, that I I think you asked a question about it earlier that I said I was gonna get to, but so that's it for his background. I'm gonna get back to Marion's case. But the timing of Marion's departure and return to Australia becomes significant when it's compared to Rick Blum's international travel during that same period. So his travel records were subpoenaed during the inquest and showed that he left Australia on June 17th, 1997, flying to Japan, which was five days before Marion departed. So they do know that they didn't leave together. Like he left five days before she did. And then on his outgoing passenger card, he indicates that he's traveling to Belgium for 30 days. And then he returned to Australia on July 31st, 1997, which was just two days before Marion arrived back on August 2nd. So they didn't travel together for to and from Australia. On both occasions, he traveled using a passport in the name Richard Lloyd Westbury. He acknowledged traveling to England during that trip, but denies making any plans to travel with Marion and denied seeing her at any point while in Europe. Because, like he said, the last time he saw her was when she came to his house before she even left to like get some stuff that she had been storing in his house after they had he had called it off. But despite him saying that he never saw her while she was there, the coroner states in the inquest that she believes Rick Blum and Marion did travel together for a period in Europe. So remember when I mentioned way back ago that Sally received this letter from her mother on June 30th, 1997, which was had stationary in the name of Hotel Nico Narita on it. Well, this becomes especially relevant during the inquest because it helped, it was the thing that helped link Marion and Rick Blum together during the time both of them were in Europe in June of 97, despite Blum testing telling the investigators that he never saw Marion at all. So the paper had the name Hotel Nico Narita, which was a hotel the Blum has admitted that he had stayed at at stopovers while traveling to Europe. There is no evidence that Marion herself ever had a layover in Japan. Um, like I said, it was she went to South Korea. The inquest addressed this issue directly. So in the report, counsel assisting outlined four possible explanations for how Marion could obtain that notepaper. Either she got it in Australia before she left, she picked it up herself while she was traveling through Japan, she received it from Mr. Blum if he had obtained it during his own stopover in Japan, or she acquired it in England from another source. So they argued that the third scenario was most likely, that Mr. Blum traveled to Europe on June 17th, stopping in Narita, Japan. He did have a layover in Japan where he said he, quote, probably unquote, stayed at the Hotel Nico Narita before continuing on to England. When asked if he took any hotel stationery, he gave an uncertain response, saying he didn't think so, but couldn't remember. Like I said, she departs Australia on June 22nd, and by June 30th, Sally had already received that letter from England that had that hotel name on it. So suggesting that it had been written and posted within a window of less than a week. So based on this tight timeline, council assisting proposed that Mr. Blum likely obtained the notepaper in Japan and later gave it to Marion in England. So that's how they were able to like say they were together in England, despite him all saying all this other stuff. So she did go based on that on this trip to meet him. They didn't travel together, which I find interesting. Like, why wouldn't they have just gone together? They were together while they were there, allegedly, but they left days apart from each other. And so, yeah, the detail, this detail became a key part to the timeline because it led investigators and people who followed the case to believe that Rick and Marion had met up while in England in June 97 and contradicted Blum's own statements that he never saw her at any point. Also, one thing, too, that I wanted to explain is just that it is important to understand that a coroner's inquest, it's not a criminal trial. So it's an investigative process that's used to determine whether a person is deceased. And if so, how, when, and where the death occurred. So it really was all about Marion and finding out whether she was dead or alive, because at this point, they don't know. So in Marion's case, these are questions that remain unresolved. Many individuals were interviewed over the course of like this three-year-long process. The purpose wasn't to assign criminal responsibility, but to clarify the circumstances surrounding her disappearance and presumed death. So if the evidence and information presented in the final inquest report were sufficient to warrant a criminal investigation, that process would then proceed separately after the inquest. As such, this material and any circumstantial evidence was not intended to incriminate Rick Blum, but rather to provide any relevant information pertaining to Marion's disappearance. So that's why, like, throughout all of this, it's not about guilty or innocence for Rick Blum. Like that's not the point of this. Um, that would be a separate criminal trial after. So they just really want to know whether she's alive or not.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:28

Why would she come back to Australia and not tell a family?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:31

Yeah, I know. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:32

I mean, like, what's the pri like like what's what was going on with her? Like, that's what I want to know. If she didn't leave with him, why would she why would she not want someone to drop off at the airport if she was living by herself? It's weird.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:44

That's what I don't get.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:45

Why was she hauling, like, why was she rushing that guy out of the house like at that time? You know what I mean? Like, what was happening here?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:51

Well, I think probably that was like he planned to come over to her house back at a certain time, and then she's like, Oh, that's the time. Like, that's why she kicked Chris out. She's like, You have to go.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:01

Oh, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:02

So you just because then they saw them together that same night in the car.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:06

Like, oh, so that must have been the car, you think.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:09

Yeah. Well, I think. Well, me.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah. At the beginning, I assumed like she was leaving with someone that she didn't want anyone to know you were leaving with, but she didn't leave with anyone. Like, let why when you let your kid drop you off at the airport? I don't get it. You know, and then when you come back, why not why not tell your kids you were coming back? Like, it's so weird.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:27

Yeah, I just I just also don't understand. Like, there's a lot of speculation too about like why he left. Like, there was there was some speculation that I saw online. Again, this is I don't I didn't know how much you want to say because it's not it's just speculation. But people were saying that like he comes back to Australia first. So it's like maybe like she had found out about it, he left and bailed, and then she flew back to Australia to like confront him about it after or something. Because it's like he left first and then she came back. And why'd she come back so why'd she tell everyone? Like it's what what I also don't get to, which is gonna come up, is like actually no, I'll I'll I'll say it when it comes up.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:00

I'm guessing there wasn't because she would have said, but there was those cameras at the bank. Like, was it her taking the money out?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:06

I do get into that later.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:09

I I also feel like maybe they didn't travel together because like again, he didn't want to be seen with her, like didn't want any connection to her at all. So he like had a different name, no one could connect him, but they didn't get they weren't seen together, they weren't traveling together, like their plane tickets wouldn't have been connected at all, because like traveling at different times. Like that maybe is what was happening, but like it seems like a lot for my I don't know, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:33

Like, what are the like we know, like the what like take speculation aside, like the facts that we know is that they both went to England around the same time. He left five days earlier than she did. She goes, and he comes back to Australia two days before she does. Like that's what we know, but we don't know where they were in that time, like where they traveled to together, all of that stuff. So it's like people are like, well, why? Yeah, what was it like he went back first? Like you think, why would she like that's what I don't understand? Like on his end, I could think, like, okay, if he had planned that something was gonna happen, okay, maybe he would want to create distance so that there's no evidence. But like she wouldn't want to do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:15

Yeah, but why would he go back to a place where he sh he like she she would could find him, like know what he would be at? Why go back to Australia after you've Well, I mean he had a wife and children at that time.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:26

So he was going back to his family.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:27

Well, yeah, maybe maybe she knew Well, I don't know, if she thought they were married, or maybe he knew he told her that he was had a wife, or so like he couldn't be seen with her because she would find out. I don't know. He could have told her anything and she could have believed it. I mean it's hard because all we know is if you're gonna be if you're gonna sell your house and give your money to somebody, then like you are gonna believe, I think, what they're saying to you. Right?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:50

Yeah, like in it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:51

Because people get conned.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:53

Yeah. Because like all we know is like his side of it of like he said, Oh, well, I told her I broke it off and told her because it was my wife and kids, but we don't know that he told her that. Maybe she thought he didn't have a wife or kids or anything. But yeah, I just I just don't understand from her perspective why they she would not want to be traveling with him. Like she's going on this, she's like 51 years old, she's going on this trip like trip to be with him. Why not just travel with him on the plane? But I guess because like h from his perspective, like I said, he would want to have maybe that distance if he knew planned something was gonna happen and the police were gonna somehow be looking into this later. But like I can't really see from her perspective why she would think, oh no, okay, you go five days before, I'll meet you there.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:42

I don't know. If you're if you ever see these documentaries about these guys that like con multiple people, it's like they have these stories where it's like, oh like I can't because work came up, or like an emergency happened, or I need to stay back for something, and like it seems legit at the time, so she could just be like, Yeah, that's why he couldn't couldn't travel together, because something came up, or like he had to work, or meeting somebody, he had like a business meeting, like that kind of thing. And it doesn't seem like far-fetched in the moment, but then when you put all the pieces together later, it's like oh Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:14

Yeah. Yeah, it's true. I just like what what I want to know is like why she told everyone it was gonna be, or like, did she know she was gonna be coming back to Australia? Like, did she plan to be coming back to Australia so soon? Or was that like an unexpected thing? I guess what I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:31

It's also strange that she she just told the family, like, I'm not gonna be writing you again for a little bit. Like, like not anybody. She could write one person, maybe her daughter. Like, you know, they'll fight 18 people a day. Like, I don't know. Like that's weird too to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:46

Like, did you tell her like think that something was gonna happen? Like that's why I'm like I she knew she was going back to Australia on the second and she couldn't write them because then they would know she was in Australia if she's sending all these letters from Australia.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:58

So why but but let's know though.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:00

Yeah, but I yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, but then they'd be like, Oh, you're you're an hour away, come see us. And she was like, No, I don't want to see you. Like it's much easier to think, like, oh, if I'm overseas, like just whatever. But if like they know she's like an hour away from them.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:15

Like you would have bought like a bunch of stickers, stamps from somewhere else, and then just sent them while you were in Pac Mafia, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:21

But like they know where you get sent from, don't they?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:25

I don't know. But it's just odd that she wouldn't want anyone to know. But yeah, I guess my only thought would be like she what couldn't. Like they threatened like she literally couldn't tell anybody.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:36

Like Yeah, like if she just found out what he was involved in somehow. And I don't know. I don't know. Aside from that large amount of money that was withdrawn over the three-week period, like I said, between August and September of 1997, there was a further 80,000 that was electronically transferred from an account that belonged to Marion. And that transfer happened on October 15th of 1997. So this marked the final recorded activity on Marion's bank accounts. There is ongoing uncertainty as to whether Marion herself was the one who went to the bank to authorize this transaction. And the inquest examines this in detail, but I'll just summarize it because it's like pages and pages long of like this. But uh there's no need to go into it that depth in depth, but I will just spend a little bit of time on it. So the court, like, hears evidence from someone, Joan Hazlitt, which is she was a branch manager of the Byron Bay branch of the Colonial State Bank in 1997, and then David Martin was a branch manager of the Ashmore Colonial State Bank in 1997. So both of them confirm during this inquest that a transaction of that size in 1997 would have required strict identification procedures. Ms. Hazlitt stated that such a withdrawal, quote, would have received scrutiny and would have required a bank teller to request photographic identification, end quote, and that an overseas transfer would also require, quote, full identification by the customer, end quote. So Mr. Martin similarly confirmed that photographic identification, such as a passport or driver's license, would be required and added that funds of this magnitude may not have been immediately available at all branches without prior notice. Counsel assisting submitted that there was no evidence of impersonation and that Marion herself likely made the request, while the family argues that the evidence was insufficient to support that conclusion. The court ultimately relied on unchallenged banking procedures and found that anyone completing the transaction would have required, would have been required to satisfy the bank of their identity. So on that basis, it concluded the person who carried out the transfer had to have successfully identified themselves as Marion. So basically they're saying like the tellers are saying like nobody who worked at the bank would have let a transaction like that occur without being convinced that it was Marion. So if it was obviously if it was Rick Blum, they know that's not Marion.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:50

But so like they didn't open like a joint account like that could have been her husband and they had the same last name, he had ID.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:58

No, there's no evidence that they ever had a joint account at all. But that's a good point. Um But like basically but no one ever said in any of this during the inquest that like he was the one who came to do anything. Right. Like he never said, Oh, it was him that came to the bank. Um but again, also they're interviewing these people like decades later. So Miss Hazlitt, so this is um Joan Hazlitt, like the branch manager. She told the police in 2020 that she had no recollection of Marion, but later stated that she wasn't actually shown a photograph during the interview. So how can you say you don't have recollection if they never show you a photograph of the person? So that's weird. That's weird. But then and then she says later, like, oh, I saw like she she then saw like a billboard, like a missing person's billboard with Marion's picture. And that's she believed that she recognized Marion as the woman that was involved in a quote, significant cash or suspicious transaction, end quote. So she recalled being asked to assist with reporting requirements linked to the transaction, which she believed was a withdrawal rather than a transfer. So while she was uncertain of the exact year, she said, quote, 97 rings a bell, end quote, and rated her confidence that the woman was Marion as quote as nine out of 10. So she's fairly confident that it was Marion at the bank that day that came in to request this withdrawal. But she says it was a withdrawal, not a transfer. And that is a little bit significant too, based on like what they found from his bank records, but ultimately the court found that, quote, it was Marion herself who attended at the bank on October 15th, 1997, and requested the transaction, end quote. She told the bank teller, quote, that she did not want her whereabouts disclosed.

unknown 1:21:34

End quote.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:35

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:35

So apparently that somehow came up. I don't know how that came up. I don't know. But it came up.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:42

How can you remember years later that? I just I don't know. I find that that's very I don't know if I whatever, like I don't know. That's why like people come forward 20 years later or something. Like, I remember it was her face, and she said this. Like, how do you remember of the lifetime of people you see at work at the bank? I don't know. I'm sure it's not the only one that made sketchy purchases and withdrawals, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:07

Yeah. So it's like, yeah, it's interesting because she's like she told them in 2020 she had no recollection. But then when they ask like later, she's like, Oh, well, they never actually showed me a picture of her. So that's why I wouldn't have thought it. But then when I saw her picture later, I put two and two together and then remembered. And now she's nine out of ten, confident that it was Marion at the bank. But yeah, like she saw like thousands of people at the bank when she worked there, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:28

How does she like if they if she said this at the a week later? Okay. I've I'm like, I've yeah, your memory's pretty like I believe you. It's just a week ago. I uh decades later, she's retired, she hasn't worked, like, no. I I wouldn't even ask her.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:44

But like why would why why would she have why would what reason would she have to be saying yes? Why wouldn't she just say I don't know? Why would she say nine out of two?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:50

I don't know. I I don't know. She does people want to be part like play an important part in something, but like I don't know. I don't that's why don't people come for I don't think people come four years later. I I just don't listen. I'm like, meh, I don't really know.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:03

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's hard. And that was like a huge part of the inquest too, is like trying to figure out was it Marion, was it not? You have these bank tellers that are being are saying like have to remember 20 some years ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:14

Like, they put a camera in the bank, but maybe step one, maybe. That would have been a good when they built the bank when they made the bigger. That's probably why they do now. They probably back then they just didn't the technology wasn't like that common.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:27

Yeah. And also I think a part of it too, like what what the other um the other teller was saying was that like regardless, the person at the bank would never have authorized the transaction if they weren't confident it was Marion. So like if it was written blum, they wouldn't have done it. Like if it's this random guy coming in pretending to be her, they wouldn't have. So like the assumption is it had to have been her. Like, you know, like a thing of that, like a transaction of that size would never have gone down unless they had eviden like shown I like ID, right? That's what the assumption is, that's why the conclusion was that it was Marion, that it wasn't like an impersonator. But yeah, so whether it was per it was Marion personally who conducted the$80,000 transfer cannot be stated with certainty, just based on the the inquest said it was, based on the conclusion. But that's just one person's opinion based on all the evidence. But if sh so if it was her that went in that day to do the to make that transaction, then that does represent the last known sighting of her ever, because there's never been anyone who came forward after that to say they ever saw her. And one thing, too, is like that transaction was on October 15th. It occurred three days before her son Owen's birthday. And it was only days before her family even began to suspect she was missing. So that's one thing Sally says. She's like, if she wanted to like keep us off her trail, did just wanted to keep her like they expected her to be gone for a year. So why not just call and say, I'm still there? Like, you know what I'm saying? That's what they find weird is like, why wouldn't she just call on the 18th when it's Owen's birthday and just say happy, you know, say happy birthday.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:59

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:00

Yeah. So that's why like when I get into it, like they're assuming that like may I think their theory is that like she died very shortly after this transaction of$80,000. Because that was only three days before. There's no way she would have missed it, but also like just to keep us off her case, she would have like just call. And then they would have left her alone for another few months, right? And then she wouldn't offer more time.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:20

I think this last like withdrawal or whatever from the bank with that large amount was like the last thing that Willie would or needed her to do. And uh she did it and then he buried her. Yep. Yep, killed her. That was it.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:36

And like this the knowledge of this$80,000 transfer only became known to Sally in 2018 through a FOIA request because she filed a FOIA request. Um, however, the police had knowledge of this transaction very early on in the investigation. So the whole the police misconduct is a whole other thing, um, which I won't spend too much time on, but just the main pieces of it is like in the initial in the initial stages of the case, police recorded the transfer but assumed it was, quote, to buy a house overseas, end quote. But Sally's like, why would they make that assumption? They could never tell anyone how they came to that conclusion. They assumed it was to buy a house overseas.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:10

It's like the only reason I needed$80,000 because I'm buying a house overseas. That's the only reason in life that anyone would do that, apparently. Yeah, why wouldn't you report that as like something you know something suspicious is going on here? Or like your family the family's looking into it. Yeah, why not why just yeah, why assume?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:28

They and they never said like the there's never any reason like there's never any reasoning explained as to what made them come to that conclusion that it was to buy a house overseas. They also didn't trace the destination of the funds. So they confirmed that all of that money had been transferred out of her account, but they never thought to tran to look into where it could have gone. Like they didn't follow that trail. They're just like, oh, it went out, but we don't know where it went to. You think that would be a big piece of the puzzle?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:54

They never looked at Willie's bank account.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:56

Well, then it says during the inquest, I I always say I refer to him as Rick Blum, so I still will, even though you're referring to him as Willie, but during the inquest, Rick Blum.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:03

Willie Voodoo is fun funny to say. More fun to say.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:08

Yeah. During the during the inquest, Rick Blum produced a document that indicates that he opened up a bank. He it says he opened up a bank security envelope. I don't really know what that term means. I tried to find out. I think it just means like a safe deposit box or like some type of account, but a bank security envelope. He opened it up on October 14th, which was one day before that$80,000 was transferred from Marion's account, and he closed the account 13 days later. So it was never established whether any of Marion's funds were deposited into that account or whether it had an or whether it held any balance.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:42

You couldn't make it more obvious if he tried.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:45

Yeah, like the timing seems notable. It's like he opens up a new account, and then a day later she transfers all this money out, and then he closed that account 13 days. But because they never like tracked where her money went, they can't say for sure that it ever went into that account. And all they know is Is that he had opened that account, but they didn't have like records of like the activity in the account in that period, I guess. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:08

Oh my god. But they weren't looking at him back then, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:12

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:12

So that's why I guess that's why they didn't like look at his bank accounts back then.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:17

Yeah. He only comes into the picture like years later.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:20

Right.

unknown 1:28:21

Right?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:21

But yeah, I mean they still could attract where her money went. That was a missed opportunity for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:27

Yeah. Like back in 97, yeah. Like they see, oh, this money came out.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:31

Well, maybe the Was his bank account like a a foreign account? Like, was it overseas? Maybe that's why they were like, oh, she transferred it overseas because she bought a house overseas. Like they tracked it at least far enough to know that it was overseas. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:45

I don't know. Like they never tried a reason as to why they assumed made that assumption. And no one can ever say like why they made that assumption. But like I guess you could say, like, well, maybe they must have found something that led them to believe it was something to do with overseas.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:57

Maybe it was overseas. But why would you assume that they're buying a house and it's not something sketchy going on? Yeah. Especially like this missing woman. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:07

And also, yeah, it's also relevant too of whether it was a transfer or withdrawal. Because if it's a transfer, you can trace that. But if she just took the money out, who knows where it is? Cash. Can you go out and take$80,000 of cash out? I mean, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:18

I mean, yeah, if it's you when you can prove it, you can take it all, you can clean out your account in cash, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:23

Yeah. So basically the the coroner ultimately concluded, quote, I find that there is a sufficient factual basis to f make a finding that Marion withdrew the sums of money in August 1997 and transferred$80,000 to an unknown account in October 1997 on the encouragement of Mr. Blum and in circumstances where Marion believed that she was in a relationship with him. However, as counsel assisting submitted, there is not enough evidence for a finding to the requisite standard as to whether and when Mr. Blum actually received some or all of Marion's money. End quote. So basically they're saying that like they believe that she took it out because he encouraged her to, or she wanted to because something to do with him, like whether they had plans, but they can't say that he ever received any of that money. They can only state like what they think her intention was. So it's like very confusing. Like they can't say for sure, you know what I'm saying? Like they can't, based on all the evidence, like they know or they believe that she only took that money out for reasons having to do with him. Like he told her to, or they were in a relationship. Not that like she did it on her own without any encouragement from him. But they can't say for sure that he ever got any of the money that was ever taken out. They they just don't have evidence for that. And then yeah, like just another piece like that came out is that they did find out that Marion's Medicare card was used on August 13th, which was just 11 days after she returned to Australia. And it actually took years to determine that the card had been used. It was used at an optometrist office. And the reason it took so long is because they were looking like for doctors in the area, but they found out it was an optometrist. So on August 13th, she went to an optometrist office in Australia, which was two days before she took that money out.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:56

Where was she staying for the whole time she's back in Australia?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:00

Well, she listed some like hotel on her incoming card, but who knows if that was actually what it was. But so we don't know. We have no idea where she was staying. And that's another thing, too, is like because Marion, she would have had to complete a new patient form during this visit to the optometrists, and that would have provided information such as where she is, like her address, like where she's living. She would have had to put an address down. But by the time they actually find out with the optometrist that it was, there's no remaining records of Marion's appointment that day. So they couldn't find anything that she had filled out. They didn't know. All they know is that she went to this optometrist on that day and used her Medicare. And that's on the 13th of August, which was two days before this withdrawal. But that withdrawal of 80,000 was the last ever activity. Like her credit card was never used, her bank card was never used, anything after the 15th. So overall, the investigation during the inquest led to the following conclusion. Quote, there has been an extensive and ongoing police investigation into Marion's disappearance. Despite the comprehensive and high profile nature of this investigation, Marion has not been located either alive or deceased. The last confirmed sighting of her was by a bank teller on fifth on October 15th, 1997. From this date forward, she has not been seen or heard from again. She did not contact her son in mid-October 1997 on his birthday and did not attend her daughter's wedding the following year. She has not withdrawn or otherwise used the remaining money in her bank account. She has not accessed her superannuation, which is like, I think it's like a pension in Australia. So she never touched her pension at all. She has not used her passport or a credit card. She has not renewed her driver's license. She has not sought any support from Centrelink or accessed any medical services in Australia through Medicare. Investigating police have undertaken extensive proof of life checks in all states and territories in Australia with nil results. Counseling assisting submitted that given these circumstances and the significant period of time that has elapsed since Marion is last seen alive, it is reasonable to conclude that she is deceased. The family agreed with counsel assisting that it is reasonable to conclude that Marion is deceased. Counseling assisting submitted that the court is in a position to make the final formal finding that Florabella, Natalia Marion Ramacal, formerly known as Marian Barter, is deceased and died some unknown time after October 15, 1997, having last been cited by a bank teller at either the Byron Bay branch or the Ashmore branch of the Colonial State Bank in New South Wales. Counsel assisting submitted that there is no evidence to support any finding as to the manner and cause of Marian's death. End quote. So ultimately the case remains unsolved. So even though the coroner concluded that Marian Barter is likely dead based on the evidence, but no cause of death, no date of death was ever determined. Just that it happened sometime after October 15th of 1997. And according to Sally on the Lady Banishes podcast, there was an anonymous tip that was submitted to Crime Stoppers in 2002 that alleged that Marian had been killed and buried in Bushland somewhere in Western Australia. Police initially dismissed that information as not credible and did not investigate further, though a brief search was later conducted, like many years later, using only one cadaver dog and one handler, and that yielded no results. So I don't know whether that was a credible tip or not. And the police screwed up this case entirely, basically from the beginning. Actually, Sally found out that for years her mother was never actually listed as a red as a missing person on the ish in the database in Australia. When she discovered this, she became deeply concerned and she was investigating further. And then with the help of contacts she had developed over the years while looking into this case, she obtained a document from the Australian Federal Police that stated this is something weird. The document stated that Marion had been located on December 7th, 2011, and that the case had been dismissed. The document also included a notation that said Sally and her the rest of her family had been notified at the time. Sally maintains that she never was informed of this in 2011 or afterwards. Like she got that call like months after she first reported her missing in 97 saying that she was found, but nothing from 2011 that said she was found. Then she was later told that this entry was a typo, it wasn't accurate. But as a result of that error, Marion had been removed from the National Registry without her family's knowledge after being incorrectly incorrectly classified as found. The coroner referred the case to the New South Wales Police Commissioner for investigation as an unsolved homicide. She also delivered a scathing assessment of the police response, described it as inadequate, and stating that as a result, critical information was lost, and it was information that could have led to the case being solved much sooner. Sally's DNA has been added to the national database and will, quote, be searched against all unidentified deceased profiles every day, end quote. And that was a quote from the coroner. Rick Blum has not been charged in anything related to Marion's disappearance and continues to not to deny any involvement or wrongdoing outside of his short affair with her. For Sally and the rest of Marion's family, like all these questions still remain. And what's really sad is when the family was first told, like shortly after her disappearance, that she had been found back in 97, and she didn't want anyone to know where she was, it was too much for some family members to bear. So sadly, Owen, which was Marion's son, Sally's brother, took his own life shortly after that. So Sally said that her brother had his own demons throughout his life, and just hearing that from the police just kind of pushed him over the edge. So that's why it's really only been Sally's like been the one pushing this investigation forward. And that's why Owen's not really like involved because he had uh took his own life like early on, which is sad. And Sally's quest for answers has not stopped. She remains dedicated to finding out what happened to her mother nearly 30 years ago. She agreed with the coroner's findings that Marion is presumed dead, but that opens up so many more questions that she hopes to find the answers to one day. And Sally launched her Odin podcast called The Missing Matter, where several episodes cover this case in more detail, and then more recent episodes cover other unsolved missing persons cases. That's basically the case. That's where it sits today. It's still unsolved. So they assume that share Marion is presumed dead, but they have no idea what happened to her. So I guess what are you guys' thoughts about all that? I know it's a lot of information, but what are you guys?

SPEAKER_01 1:37:24

I think that she met him. Well, yeah, I think she met him like on the in the newspaper or whatever. They did date and then they went to that plane that they planned that trip together. And then something happened for her to come back, and then he killed her, basically. That's what I think happened. Yeah, I think this is part of his plan the whole time. He conned or made her sell her house. Like he was talking about before, how like or how you mentioned before that cons women would like sell their house and give them the money. Um, that's what happened here. It was like a hot a lot of time. He conned a lot of women, but he never killed any of them, did he?

SPEAKER_00 1:38:10

Well yeah, that's the thing. Like, they interviewed a ton of people and that had all been conned by him, and none of them were uh they were interviewed.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:16

So why her? Like what me.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:18

That's why I think like it wasn't I don't think he intended that to happen. Like if like I think he was planning to just con her and leave with all her money, but she found out something.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:28

Yeah, or she was planning to like she wanted out or something. Like he wouldn't let her talk to her kids and stuff, and she just like wanted out and was gonna report it and then let that happen. But like other people reported, didn't they? Other like other people that he'd connect maybe not until after.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:47

Maybe not until after, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:48

Like he was gonna get caught with her. Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:52

Like, yeah. Yeah. Because nobody came forward looked while it was happening to them, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:00

But it's like she still went to the bank on the 15th of October and Noah. That's what I don't know. Like, did she know who she was being conned at that time? Like, why would she go to the bank and do that?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:13

Like I don't to me that's why would she not? I don't know. Like, that's what I find weird. So I feel like she must have found out after. Like maybe shortly, very shortly after.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:22

Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:22

Like maybe she took out the money and then she found out somehow that he was like married and that he was gonna leave her and she confronted him or something, and then he killed her. I don't know. But yeah, they never obviously never found her body or anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:38

Yeah. It's weird that she would put her like occupation as a homemaker, whatever the hell she said. Home duties? Like why? Yeah. Why, like, why do that? That's weird. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:51

Yeah, like why not just put teacher? Like, how is that gonna be?

SPEAKER_01 1:39:55

Yeah. And why get married and like why not get married? And like change your name. That's a whole thing. Like, change your name, change your profession. It's the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:05

Like, also, why'd she have to change her whole like first name? Like, that's what's weird. Like, if she was getting married, like she changed it to his last name, but like she doesn't have to change her first name.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:12

What a name it was. Fucking long.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:13

Why not like you know Florabella, Natalia?

SPEAKER_01 1:40:17

But you said Florabella. Oh, you said the last name was significant later. Maybe not the first name.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:22

No, yeah, just the last name.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:24

I kept thinking Floribella, what could that mean? I was thinking about that the whole time.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:28

That's what they were thinking of. Like, that's what the family was thinking of. Like, yeah, we've never heard that. There's no significance to us at all. The only thing is it's like because it's if it's FN, it's FN Florella Natalia Ramical or Marion Ramical, and his was like Fernand Noculus Ramical. So it's the same, it's the same initials.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:52

It's just weird that like he would be like, I want you to change your whole name to match mine. I also want you to name your I also want you to change your occupation. She'd I and she'd be like, Oh yeah, this guy seems legit. Like, you know? Like that's like change my whole name, that's a bit much. Like I don't know. Change your entire name. Yeah. Yeah. It is weird. And like I just can't get I don't know why it's like and like the fact that like she just told the family I'm not gonna be messaging for a while. I don't know why. I just that's weird to me. Like, did he tell her to say that? But like I guess some people go along with things. I don't know, like you also said she was getting like something happened with her job. Maybe she was just such in such a state. I don't know. But it's just odd.

unknown 1:41:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:37

It is odd that she would do all that if she didn't know she was being like conned, but then if she did know, like why not tell someone? Yeah, like I think there's some things that you can look past, like, oh I like he's like some things that he she can kind of like explain away. But like changing your whole first name and then changing occupation, like lying on your like that's just I there's no explanation for that, then he's just shady. But how do you explain that away? Like change my first name, you're gonna be a good one.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:03

The name change is weird. The name change is a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:08

Like teaching a home duties. I mean why? Why not just say you're a teacher? It's not like you can be identified because you said you're a teacher. There's so many teachers, like who cares? It's not like a unique thing. Why would like I know that's why it's weird?

SPEAKER_00 1:42:21

It's like she took on a new identity too, completely.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:24

Yeah. Definitely seems like she was wrapped up in something and she just didn't want there's like a whole new identity. She didn't want her kids or anyone to know what she was up to.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:35

Like, what was her plan? Like, okay, she went back to Australia.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:37

She had like all those she had all those failed marriages, so maybe she was just desperate to make this one work or something. You know? I don't know. Two divorces, as Watson said, you know? Like, yeah. Like, you know. Yeah, I don't know. Like, why do you have to get married so fast if it was they had just met? Right. It just seems like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:57

But like we don't know how they could have been, but they might have met in '94 when he put that ad in the paper. Like they could have been.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:03

Yeah, but it's and also like like eventually they dated for you since you never bought about the kids. Like, why it's like like he would be like, I want to meet you. Like there's lots of sketchy things that you would be like, yeah. Yeah, it's weirder if they did like if they knew each other that long and nobody knew. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:18

And also like the fact that she said, like, even in her outgoing card, she was um moving to Luxembourg permanently. Like, why did she have to say that?

SPEAKER_01 1:43:27

She had enough luggage to support that theory, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:30

But like, like Yeah. Like, I I just I don't know. Uh it's so weird.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:38

Like, what was she doing like in Europe that whole time? Was she like?

SPEAKER_01 1:43:41

Yeah, and why do you have to come back to her twist when she came back that she said or like taking all that money out? Like, could she not do that overseas? Like, it seems weird. And like she left, and why why did the leaf of the trip right in the middle of school year? Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of like you have to go now. Like, change your name, come with me now. Like, and she's like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:00

And also I was thinking, like, that's why, like, because other people were thinking too, like, he went back first to Australia. It's like if something happened, like they had a big fight, she found out who he was and he fled. But like, why would she then like that doesn't explain then why she would then go to Australia, but where he is in Byron Bay, taking all the money, like and not tell her family.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:20

Like, if she was like fed up with him, like why not tell your family? Why follow him?

SPEAKER_00 1:44:24

Yeah, like just go back to Australia and go home.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:27

You had more help, like get someone, help the kids' people would help you try to get this guy, you know? Like I was gonna say, why didn't you go home? But she sold her home, like she didn't have a home to go to. But like, why not? Just go to her daughter's house. Yeah, like the kids. I don't know. Yeah, she knew people. Yeah. It's almost like maybe she got caught up in something that she got embarrassed that she was being like scammed, so she wanted to like figure it out before she like admitted it or something. Like this happened to me, but like I'm fine, and I got I'm over it. Rather than being like tell me I'm in the middle of a scam. But I'm still gonna take$80,000 out for him for one just one last. And then I'm gonna be done with him. Like, I didn't make sense. Or maybe like he was the one that was taking stuff out of her bank account, so she's just like, I'm gonna take my money and go. So you can't take any more. And then but then he found out that she took all the cash out. Right, but Yeah, maybe. Yeah, yeah. But but but what's my following?

SPEAKER_00 1:45:23

Like he was taking the money for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:24

But wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:45:25

It was a woman with those small interactions. They don't know, I guess, but Well, no, like the$500 every day. Because like starting from like mid-August for three weeks, there was every day$500 coming out.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:37

Oh, and I guess you don't really need like you don't have to verify that. It's just going to the ATM and taking$500 out. Yeah, just like the machine. Yeah. But they even tell you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:45

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:46

And then she's like, I'm t I'm taking my money out of the account, so like he can't do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:51

But then he opened up an account the day before she took that money out. Like, what was his plan if she was taking it all out? And that's why like whether it was a transfer or a withdrawal is significant. Like, we don't really know.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:02

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Did she transfer to him like willingly? Or is she trying to take it out in cash? Oh, like he could have been like, run, you know, if you give me the rest of your money, I'm gonna hurt your family. And so he gave it all and then leave me alone and left, you know. I don't know, like to do threatener or something.

unknown 1:46:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:21

Or he could have opened that account like planning to take all of her money, but then she didn't even know that. And then she just happened to take the money out the next day. And then he's like, Oh, I'm caught. He found out. He's like, he's yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. It's weird.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:39

I don't I just don't understand. Like she went back to and then she goes, like, she makes an optometrist appointment on the 13th day. Living life as normal.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:45

Like everyone's like, really that vital? Were you blind? Like, why make a appointment right there? Yeah, yeah. Why do that? Yeah. Like they're in the midst of all that. I mean, yeah, that's weird.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:59

It is it's and like Byron Bates, like I said, it's only about like a like a it's like a hundred kilometers south of where she was living. So like it's not that far, like she couldn't drive. Why don't you just drive home? She's trying to get rid of him. Like, just drive back to where you know your daughter is.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:15

Like that's what I don't understand.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:17

I mean, maybe her brother maybe she will be found. Maybe she is alive in a while. Who knows?

SPEAKER_00 1:47:23

That is, and like like I said, the inquest goes in so much detail. Like, there's this one officer who made a note that said, Yep, I talked to her alive, but located, safe and well. Didn't want anyone to know where she was. Like a very detailed note. And it's like goes on that like it was the wrong date. I don't know. All this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:42

It was all Long Kong. I keep saying Kong. Long con. Long Kong. It's a long con. I said it like three times. I don't know why. Long con.

unknown 1:47:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:58

It was a long con. Um I can't say those two.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:04

There was speculation that something of like the police were somehow like involved somehow.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:08

Yeah, they were in the gaming all big money laundering thing. Yeah. It's like scary house, like incompetent. Like, it's almost like the cops have to be an audience to be that. Oh, they can't be that, like, just like that incompetent. Like, yeah. Inept. Like, there has to be like it's terrifying to think that they could be, you know? I don't know. I don't know. It's like or they just don't care. They don't that's how much they don't care. They're like just making mistakes because they're just not even trying.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:36

But that's what I find it weird though. Like, if if if if the police weren't like involved in any way, like she would have had to have been called located for someone to write that. That's not like how do you make that mistake? Yeah. Located. Like that's not like very weird. So it's like Yeah. And that would have been after the 15th, like after she was reported missing when they're looking into her. She's still alive as of whatever date that was. But then again in 2011, when that came up, that like someone in 2011 had said that she was located. But that was a typo. I don't know. That's confusing, but just crazy. I don't know. But like why somehow it came up at the bank that she didn't want, like somehow the bank teller knew, oh, she told me she didn't want her location to be known. Like why would you say that to the bank telling?

SPEAKER_01 1:49:19

20 years later, I just remembered. But yeah, why go to the bank and be like, don't tell him when I'm here? Like, yeah. Why would the bank feel anything? Yeah. Like, that's not part of my job. Like, why why the hell would I? That's not my part of my job. I don't report everybody that comes in here. Yeah. Yeah. Like I could care less while you're here. Go away. It's like, it's also like, it's like why twenty eleven, like why wait that long to write that note if it was fake? You know? Like as soon as you got important like like why not do it in the night? Like that seems like that's a long time to wait and to do that lie if it wasn't true. Yeah. You know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:59

Yeah, because like it's Like the inquest is like 169 pages. Like they go into so much detail. Like the officer that did it, like made this call and did this and wrote this, and they like subpoena her notes and they see what she wrote on certain dates. It's very confusing. So I didn't include that because it was like be here for another five hours. But yeah, like I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:18

It's weird.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:19

A lot of people either all the police fucked up or they're all involved, or they just didn't care. Well, I just think they didn't care.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:25

So that guy that Wally was Wally guy, he had a great life, made millions. Willie Wooder. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:35

Yeah, now he's like 80 something and it's just crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:39

Never got caught for anything. Well, I mean, for some things, but nothing like crazy. Like he's gonna die in jail. Yeah.

unknown 1:50:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:48

But it's just kind of crazy that like that podcast like sparked the inquest. Like that's why the inquest happened was from that podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:54

Oh, yeah. That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:55

In 2019. And then and then the result was like all of that to just conclude, okay, we believe she's dead. But like, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:03

Where? When? Like they they still can't say where. Yeah. Or when or who. Yeah, who? Where? When. None of the answers. We don't know. So crazy. But anyway, that's uh I think it's the longest episode we've ever done. Should have been two parts. Super sized. Um but anyway, yeah. Crazy kids. But I guess we should say, I should say, Rick Blum has not been accused or has not been charged with anything, or and he still denies any wrongdoing.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:33

Everything's like yeah. Unless except the things that were proof were shown as fact, like his earlier arrests for all that stuff. In the like the 60s and 70s, whatever. But yeah. I don't know. Very weird. But it's just one of those cases, like when I first came across, I'm like, oh, this will be easy. And then literally I spent like three weeks on this case, like looking it up.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:54

Crazy. I've never heard of it before in my in my life.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:58

I know, me neither. And it's one of those ones you go down the rabbit hole, and then I discovered the inquest. I'm like, well, I have to read this all. I did. It's very interesting. But yeah. Like I said, there's like a whole podcast series on this, just this case. So But like she never used her bank account ever again. She never used her passport again.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:18

Like after the 15th. That's why her like daughter thinks like she ha died after the 15th, but before the 18th.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:26

She never called. So like that narrows it down. But like unless she was alive at the but just didn't call her parent or just didn't call her son on her birthday, which seems weird. Like that's that's something Sally would say. She's like, why if she was alive for the 18th, why not just call and see buy herself more time?

SPEAKER_01 1:52:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:44

Because then like no one's gonna be looking in, looking for you, like they're gonna think, okay. And you can go another couple months without calling.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:51

Yeah. And maybe if he had like maybe if he if he had known it was his son's birthday coming up and it would be suspicious, maybe he would have kept it alive, like wouldn't have done anything to after, so she could call and give him more time too, maybe. She had lots of time though, apparently. He never got caught. Yeah. But I also like, yeah, if she was planning on just like n starting a new life and not seeing her family again, why go back to Australia? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:17

Yeah, that's what's weird to me. Like if that's why people think she probably just wanted a new life, but like just stay in Europe. Well, because she wrote on her card, I'm planning to go to I'm moving to Luxembourg permanently, is what she wrote.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:31

It's assuming she went back to Australia to see her family, but she never she didn't see them. Why gets married secretly in a different country when the kids aren't there? I know. You know? Why change her name?

SPEAKER_00 1:53:43

Yeah. And change her name. And then also, like, like I said, she knew her daughter was getting married the next year. She never showed up, didn't go to the wedding. Like it's just weird. Like her daughter's like, we wouldn't have cared if she was seeing someone. Like, why would that matter to us? We don't care.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:57

Yeah. Like she's like 50 in her 50s.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:59

So just like it's weird that like you're not sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:01

It's very extreme to like hide that and go to that extreme to like change her name if just because you're dating somebody.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:08

Did she change her name? Did he like may force her to change her name, or is that something she wanted to do? But like it just seems like it's such a different person, like someone who's like her whole life is like so family oriented and such a good teacher. Then all of a sudden you like change your name and you don't want anyone to know you're gonna like leave.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:24

And it's like it wasn't like and he left before they didn't travel together at any time. Like it wasn't like he had like hostile, she could have left at any time.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:30

Like they didn't even fly together. Yeah, like he left, like he left early. He like went before her. Like she could have just backed out and been like, I'm not going.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:38

She could have sounded the alarm at any moment and she that didn't. So yeah, that's weird.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:43

It's weird. And like that's why they know that they were together in your in England because she got the note paper. So like up until that point, everything was all fine, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:53

Or you can't just what what is that one of the options was like she bought that notepaper somewhere else. You can't buy a hotel Japan notepaper at like a convenience store, can you? Or at a Van Hotel? Like it's not gonna say hotel Japan on it.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:05

But like that's like that's just them saying like they're like even though it's not possible, really, but like there's only four possible ways in existence that you can get that. Either you buy it somewhere else, which didn't happen. They didn't like they were just saying there's only four like scenarios that are possible. And three are like not really possible.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

unknown 1:55:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:29

Unless she had it. The one of the other ones was that she had it already and took it with her. But like, why would you have to do it?

SPEAKER_01 1:55:34

She must have been at some point then. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:36

You don't buy a hotel Japan notepad at the dollar store.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:40

You know, like or at another hotel, though.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:43

Yeah, like the holiday interrupting at the hotel retrain, notepad in the room. You know? Unless a customer left it there, a customer had forgotten it didn't move in. I don't know. Like Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:54

Yeah. So many questions.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:57

And no answers at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:59

And no, I mean and no answers. I mean, the Inquest finished like in 2024. So as of 2024, it was like she was can presumed dead. But there's never been any like further developments of like charges or something. It'd be like 97. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it's been like next year will be 30 years.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:19

Yeah. Crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:20

She should be like 80.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:22

No, if she's still alive, she's like 80 now. So is Rick Bloom or Willie Wooters. Um so many unanswered questions that we still don't know. Hopefully, who knows? Maybe we'll get answers at some point. The only answers we get is that they're pres she's presumed dead, but even that is like that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:40

If you find a body, like that but what does that what does that tell us? Okay, she's dead. But we I guess anyone could have told you that, but what happened?

SPEAKER_00 1:56:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:47

Like that's not you're never gonna know that ever.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:50

You're never gonna know that, yeah. Because like you can't do an autopsy now.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:53

Or bones. It can tell sometimes on bones if you're like shot or stabbed, because that'll like make a mark on your bones. Yeah. But there's yeah, so it's like who did it and like when is like I mean, this could be she could have died like 20 years later. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:10

Yeah, exactly. Like she could have wanted to leave and had anybody.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:14

Someone else could have killed it, nothing to do with Willie. Someone else she's up to the kill. Yeah, maybe she got murdered 20 years later. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:19

Although, but she never used like her bank account ever.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:22

Yeah, well, it's because she took all her money out. She's didn't need to. She didn't open up she'll be able to do it. Never used her. Change her name again and put up put her money in a new account. Nobody knows what a new account is.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:33

Never never yeah, I guess. I was gonna say because they said she never renewed her driver's license ever either, never used her passport ever.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:40

Crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:41

I don't know. Crazy. Yeah, so that is the case of Marian Barter. And yeah, I guess we'll update you if anything, any updates come up. I don't know. We will let you know. But that does it for part one of our finale mini-series. We will be back next week with a part two, which will be, like I said at the beginning, a different case that's not related at all, but still involves travel and disappearance. And yeah, so we'll be back. We'll be back next week with part two, and we hope you will join us for that. Um, if you are a fan of the show, you can follow us on all the social media. So Crime Family Podcast on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook. Uh, we're also on YouTube, so you can just type in Crime Family Podcast on YouTube. You can find us there, subscribe, watch the video version of the episode on YouTube and also on Spotify. Um, make sure you give us a rating and a review and all of that stuff. Um, engage with us. You can also email us, crimefamilypodcast at gmail.com if you have any case suggestions or uh feedback or theories on any of the case that we've done cases that we've done. We'd love to hear from you. And yeah, we hope you enjoyed this in depth, long episode uh on this case, and we'll be back next week with part two of our finale. So thank you so much, and until then, take care. Bye.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:58

Bye.