THE DISAPPEARANCE OF CHARLES HORVATH-ALLAN (SEASON FINALE, PART 3)

In our three-part season finale miniseries, we explore cases of travellers who go missing while abroad.

In the third and final part, we go back to the summer of 1989, when 20-year-old Charles Horvath-Allan embarked on what was meant to be a life-changing trip across Canada. Drawn to the freedom of the road, he eventually made his way to Kelowna, British Columbia where he settled into the city’s backpacker scene—taking on odd jobs and meeting fellow travelers. 

Then, without warning, he disappeared. Charles was last known to be staying at the "Tiny Tent Town" campground, surrounded by a transient community where people came and went without much trace. 

Over time, troubling questions began to surface. Who did Charles meet in those final days? Did he cross paths with someone dangerous? And how could someone vanish so completely without any explanation?

For decades, the case has remained unsolved—but his mother never stopped searching. Her determination would eventually uncover overlooked details and reignite hope for answers.

In this episode, we retrace Charles’ final known movements, examine the theories, and explore a disappearance that continues to raise more questions than answers over 30 years later.

Anyone with information on this case is asked to call the Kelowna RCMP at 250-762-3300, or CRIME STOPPERS at 1-800-222-8477.

RESOURCES:
"Unsolved Mysteries" Webpage

"U.K. mom has new hope of finding out what happened to her son — 30 years after he disappeared in B.C." (CBC News)

"Join The Final Search for Charles Horvath Allan" (Go Fund Me Page)

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

This episode contains disturbing content and brief mention of suicide, which may be distressing to some listeners. If you or someone you know is struggling, help is available. Go to findheheline.com to access relevant services available in your country or dial nine eight eight for the twenty four seven suicide hotline in Canada or the US. Please take care while listening.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

I'm your co-host, Katie, and I'm here with my brother and sister, AJ and Lisa. And today is our final episode of season seven. We did it. We made it. This is the end.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Longest season ever.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Yeah, the longest.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Well, like it actually is. It is.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Most episodes. So this is our finale. It's our part three of the finale, actually. And it's our theme of tourists who have gone missing or have died in mysterious circumstances. And so, of course, this one is going to follow that theme. So I am just gonna jump right into it. This case takes place in Kelowna, BC. And this is like another local one for me. I just, I don't know, that was kind of my theme this whole season was ones that are like local to like Vancouver, Kelowna, BC. I actually hadn't heard about this case until I did research for this episode. So it was new to me. Um, but it happened back in 1989. So, you know, it is like 37 years old. It surrounds the mysterious disappearance of Charles Horbath Allen, who at the time was just 20 years old, and he had decided to backpack across Canada. And even back then, like there's just something that was very, I guess, very timeless and alluring about backpacking. And of course, backpacking across Canada, like Canada's a huge country, and so it's not just like backpacking through Europe, you're going through all these different countries, like Canada is obviously huge. And so just kind of the thought of having everything with you, you're traveling, different locations, it's kind of enticing for especially young people who just are trying to figure things out. It's kind of something I'd always thought that I'd do like travel around, like work here and there, um, but never happened for me. Still time, but it's a dream. Yeah, that's the dream. Um, I probably wouldn't go across Canada. I might obviously I'd probably go to Europe or something. Maybe Canada, but anyway. So Charles was actually born in Ontario, Canada, and his parents divorced shortly after, and he moved with his mother to the UK. And so, like I said, when he was 20, he decided to explore and get to know the country where he was born. And he decided that he was going to do this on a month-long backpacking trip. Like that was the way that he decided he wanted to explore the country. And so in September of 1988, Charles set out on this solo trip across the country. Um, I guess not totally across the country because he flew to Montreal. So just kind of got out the Maritimes. He's like, let's just skip that and we'll start in Montreal. Um, good choice. No, no, I'm just joking. I love the Mayor Times. Um so he arrives in Montreal, Quebec on September 22nd of 1988. So I guess he's there for a few months. In December, his mother, Denise, comes to visit him and she watched him take part in a fashion show that was going on in Montreal. And she stayed with him for two weeks before flying back to England. And Denise said that Charles had enough money for about three months of traveling. And so he intended to find odd jobs throughout his trip to just fund it longer so that he wasn't restricted to three months. Um, and I think this fashion show was like one of those jobs he got hired to be in a show, and so he was a model and he made some money doing that. From Montreal, Charles traveled to Thunder Bay, Ontario to visit his father and his stepmother. By late March, he had reached Swift Current, Saskatchewan, where he cashed a check at a royal bank. So we know he had been working, he'd made enough money to, you know, keep funding his trip. And throughout this whole time, he would regularly check in with his mother by either calling her or sending letters through fax. Um, like I said, this was like 1980s. So no cell phones, no social media. It wasn't as easy just to like text with a checkup. You had to like phone, know where people were, know their phone number, fax them even. Charles traveled west through the prairies and he called his mom again when he got in got to Banff, Alberta. And when he was there, they were discussing plans for his 21st birthday, which would have been August 21st. And his mother, Denise, her birthday was August 17th, so really close. And she was only turning 40. So he's turning 21, she's turning 40. So it was kind of like a milestone birthday for both of them. And they decided to kind of make it special, and they decided that they were gonna go on a trip to Hong Kong to celebrate their birthdays. And so that was kind of the plan, and they didn't really have like flight times or anything like that. So they had planned to talk about that the next time they talked. But I think the plan was for him to leave from Vancouver Airport and head to Hong Kong to meet his mom sometime in August. So after he left Bamp, he made his way to BC and he finally landed in Kelowna on May 3rd, 1989. Like I said, his trip to Hong Kong wasn't until August. This was this was May. So he had a few months still to travel around and explore BC, if that was his plan, I guess, because he was going to be leaving from Vancouver. So still had a few months. He wasn't like this luxurious traveler. He wasn't staying in hotels or like fancy resorts or anything. He was literally like camping, finding hostels, free places to stay. Yeah, I don't know, if if you guys were like planning on traveling, would you think that like hostels and camping the entire time would be the way you would choose to do it? If you had the money, would you be in hotels? Or do you think it's just like a better experience if you're I mean, I would definitely go camping.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

I'd definitely go time for like a month? Not the whole no, not the whole time. No.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

No, yeah, I was gonna say like no camping. Hostels, yes. I mean I've done hostels before. A few hostels. I guess it depends like what kind of like person you are or like what kind of experience you're looking for. Like if you're a solo backpacker and you're looking to make friends, hostile, yes. But if you're someone who doesn't like to like sleep in rooms with other people and like with strangers, so I don't know. I feel like he was young, right? He was like 20 something.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

He was 20, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Yeah, so I feel like that's like kind of the age that I feel like a lot of people who go to hostels are. And you probably wouldn't have a lot of money by that point to be able to afford like hotels every night.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

If I was going by myself, I would camp. I would definitely do a hostel because I wouldn't want to camp by myself. But if I was with people, I'm like, that'd just camp. Like I would like to camp.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

Yeah. Because like I said, it depends. Like some people might backpack solo, but they like like like being solo. They'll just like go do things on their own. So they'll go to a hotel. If you're kind of looking for that experience where you go to meet other hiker or like meet other travelers and like do stuff together, can't really do that if you're in a hotel.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Yeah. And I think that was kind of Charles's plan to like he obviously didn't he's probably running out of money at this time. That's why he's been working as well. So he probably couldn't afford to stay in hotels the whole time. But I get the feeling that he probably wouldn't like that either because he's kind of described as like a free spirit um and just liked the travel. And he's very social. So yeah, I think staying in campgrounds and hostels was kind of more the vibe he was going for, I guess. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:08

Um free like free spirit city, hostels, full of free spirits. Let's just say that.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Yeah. Mm-hmm. For sure. Um, so yeah, even when he arrived in Kelowna, I guess his first night he slept outside in City Park, whether just like on the ground, on a bench, um, but just I guess outside. And then he stayed at the gospel mission for a few nights as well. And then there's also reports that he just kind of stayed with various people that he had met, or he would sleep at different work locations. There's one report that says like his boss found him sleeping at the office or something, and so he invited him to stay with him for a few nights. I think that's kind of like one of the points of like this whole story is that like he was seen as just a transient person in Kelowna, and so he didn't really have any ties. And so maybe that's why it wasn't taken so seriously at first, because yeah, he was just like this homeless guy that was just you know bombing around the city.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

And some and some people like wouldn't think of it as homeless, it's just more like, oh, you know, you'll figure it out, you'll meet people, whatever. Like people, there's a lot of people like that.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Yeah. Like he had a home to go back to if he wanted to. Like this was kind of his choice. Like, this is where he wanted to be. So yeah. But that's like you see people like sleeping out on a bench, like you don't know their story. They could, that's what they want to do. They could, they could have a home, but they just, you know, they're just being a free spirit out there. So I think today it's way different than it was like in the 80s, probably 80s and 90s, but still like not completely safe. May 8th, Charles registered at a campground in Kelowna. Back then it was known as Tiny Tent Town or Tiny Town, like tent and RV campground. And on May 11th, he sent a fax to his mom, just kind of checking in, um, just asking about their cats, asking how things were going. And that's the last time that he had any contact with his mother was May 11th. And so back to Tiny Tent Town where he was staying. This was located on Lakeshore Drive in Kelowna. Now it's replaced by buildings. I think there's like a big apartment complex there or something. It's not open, like an open campground like it used to be. But back in the 80s, tiny tent town had a very specific atmosphere. It was a very transient environment, but it was also a very good, like, family campground, I guess, because it was very inexpensive. So the locals could just take their family for a weekend or whatever. It hosted a mix of travelers, seasonal workers, and local families. So it was, you know, anyone that was looking for like a cheap place to stay, this is where they're gonna go. And of course, that kind of place attracts, you know, crime and drug activity. So that was known in this campground as well. And it's more like a big party place where people would go to party, locals, people traveling, this is where you'd go. So it had that kind of vibe. And yeah, so the campground did kind of attract a criminal element. And those were the kind of individuals that were staying there. So, like I said, Charles was like likely seen as just a transient that lived at this campground. And he did stay there for a bit. Um, he was planning to stay long enough where he got a job in the area, and so he worked at a local theme park. It was like the Flintstones, like little park for kids, like little roller coasters and things like that. And so that's where he worked. And because of like the transient nature of this campground, it suggested that Charles was likely surrounded by people that he obviously didn't know very well. He got to know some people because he was very friendly, but people that he probably shouldn't or didn't trust. And they wouldn't look out for him the way that like a longtime friend or family would have. And so this will come up where like people knew him, they would see him every day, but then when they just didn't see him, they're just like, oh, like Charles left without really kind of looking further into it. So as weeks go by, since the last time Charles reached out to his mom, and she not hearing from him, it was very odd. Like I said, he reached out to her all the time. Denise got very anxious. And so, not just because she hadn't heard from him, like maybe he would go like a week or two without talking to her in the past, but she like needed to like book their flights and their trip to Hong Kong. So she wanted to get in contact with him to be like, what's the plan? When are we gonna meet? That kind of thing. They needed to talk about the details of their trip. And so she started calling everyone that she knew in Canada, asking if they had heard from him at all. And this is when she knew something wasn't right because nobody really had heard from him. He hadn't checked in with anybody that she knew. And so this is when she wanted to report him missing. And so she tried. She called the police, and of course, they weren't really worried. They just figured this is like some 20-year-old kid that was traveling that like just didn't want to check in with his mom every day. And so they're just like, yeah, he's probably, you know, partying or he doesn't want to talk to you. He's 20 years old. Let's leave it alone. Denise knows that something really is wrong. She continues to call them regularly, trying to make a missing person's report with no luck. But then finally, it wasn't until like August 10th that the police finally took a report for a missing person. So this was like, like he went missing in May, June, July, August. Like three months later, they're finally like, okay, let's do something about this, sort of. But Denise felt, of course, that they weren't really looking too hard for him. And she was right. I mean, they really didn't see this as an urgent matter. And she wasn't able to get back to Canada from England until June of 1990. So this is like almost a year later, where she's actually finally able to get back there to, you know, do some investigating herself, which we'll find out. Like she really carried this entire case for the police. When she does get to Kelowna, she's making flyers, she's putting ads in the paper, um, you know, with Charles' picture, you know, missing, and she puts her itinerary in the local paper as well, so that if Charles does see it, he'll know where she's staying and what she's doing. So he'll be able to just meet up with her if that's what he wanted to do. So anyone would know her plans and where she is. And Crime Beat actually did an episode on this. And Denise tells Crime Beat that she actually went to Tiny Tent Town herself to try and talk to people that were there. And she kind of had to build herself up, like build the courage up to even go there because just the look of it was like scary to her. Like it's not a place where she would even want to be. And she finally did go on her own to talk to the people there. And she met with someone named Kevin who worked there. And for whatever reason, he like wouldn't talk to her. And he kept saying that she had to wait for the manager. Like, wait for the manager, wait for talk to the manager. I can't say anything until the manager's here. And so, for whatever reason, like, whether he didn't know or he just like didn't know if what he should say, um, he wouldn't talk to her. So Denise just like literally sat there and waited for the manager to show up. And so the manager's name was Phil, and he gets there, and I guess he does say that he recognizes Charles. Phil says that he does remember Charles. He remembers that his tent was just kind of left. And when nobody had heard from Charles for like a week or two, they just decided to take his tent down and store his stuff in the shed until he showed up, which he never did. He says that when this happens, like it's not like a this is the first time it's ever happened. You can kind of imagine like this kind of community, people just like leave their stuff and never come back, and they're not exactly missing, they just don't care, leave their shit and go. And he said they usually store their stuff for about three to six months to see if they're gonna come back. And that's what they did for Charles, but he never came back to get it. Phil also says that they kept his personal photos. So there was like a little bag with papers and possibly his IDs and passports were in there as well. And they put all that in the shed until the following season when they cleaned it out. And then when they saw all this stuff there, they just like kind of threw it all out into the garbage. So it was like a passport, pictures of his mother, pictures of his family that he that Charles was known to like show people when he met them. Like, this is, you know, my family, like people would show pictures on their phone. That's he carried these pictures with them. And for whatever reason, they didn't think that they should give this stuff to the police. They just threw out this guy's passport and pictures and all his personal stuff. And when Denise asks Phil why he wouldn't just pass this stuff over to police um or try and contact anybody, he says, Well, this is like just a transient from Europe. So who are they even gonna contact? It's not like you could, like I said, it's not like there was a Facebook or social media where you could just like post something. There's no way to get in contact with anybody. So they just threw his shit out. Denise, of course, thinks that if they would have just passed some of the stuff over to police, that the police may have taken it more seriously more like sooner than they did. Um, because like I said, they really weren't doing much to look for Charles, even though it was a missing person report out on him. And they wouldn't have just thought that it was a tent and clothing left behind, if they would have seen that his passport was left behind as well. Could have been taken more seriously. But unfortunately, this didn't happen. As everybody knows, like the sooner you look into things like missing persons, the more likely that you're gonna find evidence. And so that like critical window was missed in this case for sure. And there were reports that Phil, the manager, was wearing some of Charles's sweaters one time when like a reporter came up to interview him. And there's also reports that Phil gave some of Charles's clothes to his girlfriend who also wore them around. And so, like, people were just like wearing his stuff. I don't know, that kind of seems sus. I don't know if that's like a standard thing where it's like people leave their clothes around. Let's see what's good and wear it, keep it for ourselves. Um, maybe not too hard to believe, but yeah, it's just weird that this guy's missing and people are wearing his stuff. And of course, some people speculate, like, oh, they probably knew he was never coming back. So they just gave his stuff away because he wasn't gonna need it. So these allegations, of course, were never proven. Phil says he has no idea what happened. He doesn't think that anything did happen because if there any if there was like a fight or something that happened that night, he would know about it because he's a manager and he knows what goes on in the campground. Needless to say, though, there were serious concerns about how the evidence was handled in this case. And some of the like key failures that they find out were, as I mentioned, there was a delay in reporting Charles missing. He wasn't reported missing until August 10th. Of course, his mom tried, but they wouldn't take a report for months. Um, there was failure to secure the campsite. So it's not like police went over to like check out his stuff. His stuff was just sitting there, obviously rummaged through and then packed up before anything could be like analyzed or evidence taken. There was, and his stuff was even distributed, and there was incomplete follow-up um on investigative leads, apparently. There's some reports that say there was like identified like six areas that were could have been searched right away, but these searches were not initially completed. Gonna back up a little bit to a couple days before Charles' disappearance. So, according to witness-based accounts from various sources, including um Crime Beat and Unsolved Mysteries, they did an episode on this as well. Charles attended a late night party or a gathering at the campground the last time he was seen. Multiple people report seeing him that evening of the party. Um, one of the campers who wanted to remain anonymous will call him Joe. He had a little son with him, and he said that Charles was very friendly and he would go around the campsites, try to make friends with people. He would show people, you know, pictures that he carried around with him. And Charles would play with Joe's son whenever he saw him. And that Joe and Charles, you know, kind of became friends in a short time that they knew each other. Joe said that Charles talked about his family a lot and would, like I said, show everybody his pictures, talk about his mom all the time. And Joe said that he got the sense that Charles was very close with his family, especially his mother. And one morning that Joe woke up and Charles' tent was just left. Like, it's not like he packed up overnight. There was no sign that he was like packing up important things. It was just like no indication that he was planning on leaving. He didn't tell anybody that he was like leaving Tiny Tent Town. He just like wasn't there anymore. And the fact that Joe pointed out that Charles was close with his mother is an important detail because one of the theories out there is that, you know, Charles planned to leave and just get away from his family, get away from his mother. But, you know, his mom says they were best friends. They did everything together. They were so close in age. I mean, she had him when she was 19. It just doesn't seem like something that he would do and why plan a trip to Hong Kong and go through all that trouble if he wasn't planning on doing any of it.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

And so despite police examining, you know and the police really Also you would need your you'd you would need your passport if you was even if you were planning on leaving your mom, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Yeah, exactly. That's like another point. It's like people leave their life, but they still need their like shit with uh to like have a new life. So I think a passport would be the most one of the most important things you keep. And even though eventually some like Charles's clothes that were passed around to people, they were examined by police when they were turned in, but not much really happened with that. They couldn't really find any evidence, especially this is like the 80s, 90s, so there's not much they could do. Denise stayed for a couple of weeks, a couple of weeks during her initial visit after Charles disappeared. Um, but then she finally did have to go back to England and she saved up money for another two years so she could return to Kelowna. And so she came back in 1992, and like during that whole time she was gone, nothing happened at all in Charles's case. And when she returned, she stayed at the same motel that she had stayed the first time, and there were no leads, and no one had come forward about her missing son. But this time was a little bit different. Um, this time, like someone sort of did come forward, kind of. So there was a letter that was addressed to Denise with the address of the Pandozy Motel where she was staying on Lakeshore Road, which is really close to Tiny Tent Town. Um, and it was delivered by a yellow cab. So it wasn't like a person, just the driver said that someone had given him a note to give to Denise at this motel. This is so this is what the letter said. It said, Dear Mrs. Allen, I seen your ad in the paper looking for your son. I seen him in Tiny Tent Town, May 26th. We were partying and two people knocked him out, but he died. His body is in the lake by the bridge. And of course, there was no name, it wasn't signed. They had no idea who had left this note, but it seemed like a pretty good lead. This is really the only thing that they had to go on. And this note did prompt some action. So some volunteer divers went into Okanagan Lake. So Okanagan Lake is like a huge lake, it's super deep as well, and then there's a bridge that goes like from Kelowna that connects to West Kelowna, and that's the bridge that they were talking about in this note. And so they searched for three days, but they came up empty-handed. They didn't find anything at the bottom. A company from Vancouver came down to aid in the search as well, and they had a submersible camera that they were willing to lend to the search, but the cost was $1,000 a day for this camera. And Denise agreed to pay that out of her own pocket. So they had this submersible camera that could search the bottom of the lake. Um, and they searched for like six days. And even during these searches, the RCMP states that they had no reason to suspect that there was any foul play involved. There's no evidence either way. There's no evidence there was foul play, there's no evidence that there wasn't. Even though he had been missing for three years at this point, no evidence point either way. And of course, there were questions about whether this letter that Denise had received was genuine or if it was just a cruel hoax. And a spokesperson for the RCMP at the time said that they there had been several attempts to um clean up that area where they were searching, like right by that bridge. Several attempts earlier, other activities, just like clean it up or searching for other things. And they had never found anything before. So they were thinking like if their body was there, they would have seen it during these activities. And they never did. So after five days, these five or six days, after these searches came up with nothing, another note was delivered and by the same person, because the same handwriting addressed to Denise again at the hotel or the motel. And they traced, so this guy had called used a payphone to call for a cab to deliver this note, and they traced the call back to the payphone. But when the cab driver showed up, um, the guy just again handed them a note and kind of took off on his bike after that. And so this time the note said, Mrs. Allen, you're diving on the wrong side of the bridge. So I guess they were on one side, they weren't checking the other. And it's just like this guy was obviously like watching them this whole time during the search. But like, I don't know, it just seems kind of creepy. It was just like lingering around. Like, was he in a car driving on the bridge? Was he like standing on the shore? Like, where was this guy? And like he was obviously watching the search close enough to know that they weren't searching in the right area. So by this point, the RCMP had decided to get involved. They were thinking, like, okay, maybe there's some legitimacy to these notes. And they got their divers out there in the lake as well. And this time, I think it was like day six of the search, the submersibles find human remains at the bottom of Okanagan Lake. And Denise recalls for Crime Beat that when she heard this news, she f, you know, obviously she was devastated. She sat on the bathroom floor of the motel and she was just crying. The next thing she knows, there's like an ambulance out front to take her to the hospital because they said that she was having a meltdown because of stress. Not sure who called the ambulance for her, but she says that she was like strapped into a gurney, and then the paramedics were like shouting at her and they manhandled her, got her to the hospital in an ambulance. This is kind of like a bit of an aside. Like it doesn't really make a difference in this case, but because Denise was at the hospital, she had to watch the news to get the information that was going on for the search. So three days after she was taken to the hospital, she's like watching the news. The news did indicate that the body they found was likely Charles' body. And three days after Denise was taken to the hospital, the coroner met with her and asked um for Charles' details so that they could get a death certificate for him. And so, I mean, they are obviously pretty convinced that this body they found is Charles. Um, they hadn't positively ID'd the body at this point, but even the even the local pay the local papers were reporting that the body found at the bottom of Oaknagen Lake is that of, you know, missing European backpacker, Charles. But then Denise is like, well, have you identified the body yet? Like, do you know it's for sure for him? And like the coroner's like, no, but we're pretty sure it is. Like, you know, it would be a weird coincidence if someone said his body's down there, it wasn't him. Finally, after dental records and like DNA testing, they did get an answer and they found out that the body at the bottom of Okanagan Lake was not Charles, after all. And so, I mean, poor Denise goes through all this. She thinks they, you know, it's kind of good news, bad news. She was like, if it if he is dead, I I do want to find him. But I don't want him to be dead. So it was like a bittersweet thing. But just like, talk about jumping to conclusions. I mean, coroner was like, Yeah, it's him. Like, give us the info for the death certificate. Reporters, everyone's like, Yeah, we got him. And it wasn't even him. So they did find out later that it was like a 64-year-old local Kelowna man that they think committed suicide, like jumped off the bridge. But it raises questions like, did that person know there was a body down there? Like, what a coincidence to say that there's a body on that side of the bridge. Like this guy knew what side of the bridge even to check, and they happened to find a body. Like, it just seems like a little sus. Did Charles also get thrown over the bridge? And they like his body happened to get swept away while this one was still down there? Like, it's just it's very strange.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Was this body the one they found? Was it like, had it been there for a really long time?

SPEAKER_01 30:25

Um, I can't remember actually how long they said it had been down there, but it was enough where you couldn't just like look at it and know who it was. It would give it like remains, like bones mostly. So the person had been down there long enough where it wasn't a body, it was remains. So not really sure. So like a long enough where it could have been Charles down there for like three years, even. So after the lake search and finding the body um in April of 1992, there's a new development from one of Charles' friends from the campground. This guy, Joe, again, comes forward to um talk about some things that had gone on in the campground. And so he stayed anonymous at the time of this crime beat interview because he said he was afraid for his life. Joe had actually left the Okanagan area after his camping trip in Tiny Tentown in 1989, and he didn't even know that Charles had been missing. And he found out when he returned to Kelowna and kind of like saw the news and everything that was going on when he finally realized that Charles was missing. Um, and that's when he reached out to Denise. So he didn't reach out to her because he didn't even know. But once he found out, he reached out to Denise. Um, and Joe had pictures from that last night that Charles had been seen at the campground. And I guess there was like a big biker gang party in Tiny Town. There was like apparently 75 bikers had registered to go to this campground. Joe remembers hanging out with Charles and being approached by um some guys with liquor, and they're like, Oh, you guys have to take drinks for the party, like, take some shots. And so Joe says that he and Charles both took a shot from this liquor bottle. And then Joe recalls, like, immediately he felt like he had been drugged. I was his head was spinning. Um, he could hear people talking, but it was kind of just like a buzz, like he couldn't make anything out. And then he said he just went in his tent and he hit the mattress and he was out for like two days. And he he says that he thinks like Phil, the campground manager, was one of the guys that was like walking around giving people these shots. Um, and that was believed to be May 26th of 1989. And Joe says that he never saw Charles again after that incident. And Joe says that um he had taken a bunch of pictures that night, and then he had printed them out. I guess this must have been before the shot because he passed out for two days. But he had some pictures of that that night um printed out and he showed them to Phil, the manager. And then Phil took a bunch of pictures out of the stack and he also took the negatives as well. Um, and he never gave them back. Like he didn't want anyone to see what was on these pictures. And Phil claims that he just didn't want his girlfriend to see them because he was with another girl that night. So Joe can't remember what was in those pictures. Like it was almost like he didn't look through the entire stack right away. But anyway, yeah, Phil was quick to take these pictures and the negatives and get rid of them for whatever reason. And I guess it was confirmed that like Phil did cheat on his girlfriend that night, so that could be legit, but we'll never know. But so there's throughout the years, like, of course, Denise does some research and she finds out the timeline of that biker party is actually wrong. She says it was the weekend of May 19th because it was like the long weekend and it was not the 26th. Joe was right when he said that he never saw Charles again. So this was the night of the 20 of the 19th that he saw Charles for the last time. But Charles showed up for work on May 26th. So, even though he didn't go back to the campground. So he was seen on the 19th, didn't go back to the campground, but then showed up for work on the 26th. So people don't know where he was staying for like that whole week. After he worked on the 26th, he cashed his check at the bank at Orchard Park Mall in Kelowna, and then hitched a ride downtown. And then his activities after that are largely unknown, even though there are some sightings here and there of people claiming to say they saw Charles. So there's really like no dates to confirm when these people actually saw him. So one friend says that she had seen Charles in August of 1989 at a club, um, and that he had also buzzed into her apartment trying to visit him, trying to visit her one day, but he she had company and she didn't let him in. And that was like kind of the last time she ever heard from Charles, didn't actually see him. That date, there's some reports that that was May. Like she had mixed up the dates, it was May or August. So it's kind of like, when was it? And I think it was confirmed that it was actually May, not August, that that happened. But then someone's like, Oh, we saw him at a club in on in August. Um, there was another sighting of Charles that someone said that they saw him with a guy in an orange cream camper van. And Charles' friends said that they had warned him not to go party with this guy. I guess he was like known around town, maybe a sketchy guy. And they were worried for Charles' safety when they did see them together. Charles told them told them that they were going to Midway, BC, which is like just another town, like 150 kilometers south of Kelowna, just to go to another party or something. Further to this, um, people have positively identified Charles, like saying they have seen him in Revelstoke, BC, like two years after he had been reported missing. Of course, it was never confirmed it was actually him. Police say that during their investigation, they contacted some of Charles' relatives that had that he had visited while in Canada. And they did say that Charles told them that his intentions were to disappear and that no one would ever find him, which seems weird. Like, I don't know why he'd be like, Yeah, I plan on going away and no one's ever gonna see me again. Like, they just like didn't tell his mom that. Like they were like worried, they weren't concerned, like that's what they told the police. Of course, his mom's like, that's out of character for him. Like, there's no reason why he'd want to do that. We had plans, like, he was excited for going to Hong Kong. So something is like doesn't seem like it's adding up here. And there was also a tip that came in in 2010, actually, about Charles, but the tipsters were like too afraid to come forward and say who they actually were. And so that tip didn't go anywhere because they weren't able to follow up or get in contact with them to see what they were actually talking about. So it feels like there's people out there that do know what happened to Charles, where he is, but people are too scared to like come forward and say anything. Of course, none of this was ever substantiated. Like, we don't actually know if Charles met up with that guy in the cream van, if he did go to Midway, if he was seen at that club in August, if he, you know, was seen two years later, if he did intend to run away, but yeah, why leave all his stuff behind? It's another one of those cases, it's like, was it a murder? Was it an accident? Did he plan to leave all along? Today that's where it ends. The last sightings of Charles, people don't really know. Um, for over 30 years, Denise has been looking for her son, and she says that she'll continue to look for him until the day she dies. She's had multiple trips back to Kelowna, like 15 or something like back and forth throughout the years, just talking to people, um, doing her own investigations. Um, and Denise's the one that really kept this investigation going and getting Charles' story out there. Like she's the one that pushed police to get even on a missing person report. Um, she had to do a lot of her own investigating. She printed flyers and ads and she put up billboards in Kelowna. And she even paid for that like immersible camera out of her own money. And there was a feature about Charles in, like I said, Unsolved Mysteries. But the only reason like that this even happened was because during one of her trips to Kelowna, Denise heard that they were filming in Nelson, BC. And so she herself made the trip like 14 hours up to Nelson, like knocked on the door of the filming producer, told him about Charles' story, and then they agreed to do like a segment on it. So that's like why he has a um like a portion in one of the episodes. So um, yeah, even now, like Denise posts regularly on Facebook. Um, she has like Pinterest posts, all of the pictures, if you look up like Tiny Tent Town or like Charles, you click on them and they go back to her Facebook page. So she's still like commenting and like posting things. She's like in her 70s now, so she says she doesn't have the strength or the health to ever come back to Kelowna, probably. So in August of 2020, a presumption of death certificate was granted for Charles. Um, and on that death certificate, it said he died May 26, 1989. Even though he has that death certificate, his case is still cold, unsolved. Don't know what happened. And that's the end of Charles' story for now.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

Weird. The manager is sketchy. Phil? Is that his name?

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Yeah, Phil. He actually passed away in 2021, so he can't offer any more insights whether he had them or not.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

I feel like like the mica party, like something happened to him then.

SPEAKER_02 39:41

Like But he showed up after, right? They said he went to work after that.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Yeah, that apparently the party was the 19th, and then he did they know that he was at work on the 26th, and he cashed his check that same day and got a ride downtown.

SPEAKER_02 40:01

So really the cashing that check, like cashing that check is like his last kind of record of anything.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

Yeah, but they that they know was him, yeah. I guess do they know it was him though? Like, was it actually him that cashed that check? But that's kind of believed to be his last actual known whereabouts. So And it's like, yeah, just like what the hell happened after that? And it's always like it's always interesting. It's another case, like, did he plan to like leave and and why? And like his mom's always like he would always check in because he didn't want me to worry about where he was, so we'd always make sure I knew he was okay and where he was. So why would he just all of a sudden just be like, no, I'm leaving, not gonna tell anybody? Doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_00 40:46

He wouldn't still be in Klona. It's like I feel like they would seen him by an app, like he wouldn't still be in Klona, I feel. But where would he go? Like there's no didn't have his passport. I mean I know.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

You have to get like a new passport, like change did he change his name? He had a new passport, uh like maybe it was easier to do that back then. Like, yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

And also, like why Or he could just stay like anywhere in Canada, really.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Yeah, he would have just stayed in the country. Um, there's been like multiple like age progression photos that have been created and posted because he'd be like in his 50s, 60s now, even. So yeah, it just seems kind of crazy that he would never reach back out if he was alive. But then it's another one of those things where it's like 20 is like the age where you know mental health or like schizophrenia can kick in all of a sudden. If he was like partying and like drinking, something could have happened where he just got disoriented, doesn't know where he was.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

Would it have been that quick though? Like he communicated pretty normally up until then.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

I mean, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

That's maybe something happened at like that biker party on the 19th, and like he didn't die that night, but like he pissed someone off or something, and then they did something later. Maybe.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Yeah, because like why would like people be afraid to come forward? Like they're afraid for their life to even like tell who they are, telling the story about what happened. So obviously there's somebody out there that people are scared of.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

Who's that like wrote guy who wrote the letter? Do you think they say that they found they don't know, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:18

They never found out who that was. And like the cab driver, I don't know if I think probably a different cab driver both times that like delivered the letter. They had like a description of the guy, but it's like a generic, like, white guy with brown hair. So I mean, really could be anybody. But you see, think like like was that a hoax and a coincidence that they found somebody? Or did Charles actually get thrown over the bridge and then just like his body floated away and that that lake is like so deep. Did they not check again after they found out it wasn't him? No, I didn't find any like reports that said they went back and did another search. Once they found that body, they were like, shit.

SPEAKER_02 42:55

Um Maybe it was um maybe it was him that sent the letter if he wanted to disappear and just make everyone think he was dead.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Yeah, maybe. It's like a coincidence that there happened to be somebody down there. Like that seems weird.

SPEAKER_02 43:09

Yeah. Yeah, probably it's probably far-fetched, but I guess and also the the description would not didn't match him, right? Description of the person, I guess just a generic picture.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

Of the body? Well, they couldn't tell.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

Like they couldn't No, the like the description of the person who sent the letter.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

Oh, no. The the cab driver probably they probably showed a picture and they it they said it wasn't him. Also, yeah, it'd just be like a weird thing to do if it was him, I feel. Um but I when I'm swimming in Okanagan Lake, I'm just like, oh man, I wonder like how gross the bottom is, like how many I know this is morbid, but like how many dead bodies are down there. Um definitely probably one at least.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

More than one, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

Yeah, it's a huge lake and it's so deep. So God knows what's down there.

unknown 43:59

Um

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Yeah, weird, just another mysterious, like, what what happened? Somebody and the thing is, like, somebody has to know, right? Somebody was the last person to see him after he was seen at that campground. And like, why leave his stuff?

unknown 44:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

Maybe they don't maybe they don't know they were the they were the last person to see him. Like no one came forward because they didn't think they were significant. Like it turns out they were the last person, but they don't know that. But I guess why would you still not go and like just say where you saw him anyway?

SPEAKER_00 44:33

Did they ever talk to the guy that owned that clean band?

SPEAKER_01 44:37

I think they like know who he was, because I think they named him in one of these maybe in in the Unsolved Mysteries episode, I forget. Somewhere they I think they named him, but they he must have been ruled out because he nothing ever really came from that. And he was older too. He was like he had gray hair and stuff, so he's might not be around still because he was older back then, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

I would assume that some teleplay happened. I don't think he's still alive.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

Not me there.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Yeah. I think that's what his mother concluded as well, that he probably is not alive, because if he was, he would have never went this long without reaching out to her. But then it's just a question of where and who and why.

SPEAKER_02 45:22

Mm-hmm. And you always think like with these people who go missing, and people always think like, oh, they just started a new life. How many, how, how many times do you think that's actually happens? I don't think it happens as often as people, oh, we just went off and started a new life. Like that's not a good thing. I think it's really rare. Like especially someone who never uses anything again, like never uses their ID, their passport, their money ever. If they had money to use and they never use it, like that's always the first thing people go to. Oh, like they must have wanted to disappear. But I'm like just very curious at to like what the actual number is.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

But it's also, yeah, it's also like he was so far away from home already. Like he could have started a new life in Canada, but still keep in contact. Like it's not like his mother was smothering him, right? Like she was like half a world away. So he could have started somewhere else and still have his family that knew where he was. I don't know. It just seems really weird.

SPEAKER_02 46:16

He didn't have to agree to go on this trip to Hong Kong if he was planning on starting a new life. Like it just seems like, couldn't you just say no, like I wanna stay here? Like it just seems weird. It does seem especially like if you're planning to disappear, because it's like that now you're just giving somebody a reason to like you know, like to expect to hear from you, right? Like if they didn't have that plan to for the trip, she wouldn't have had to may reach out like she did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

Yeah, she might she might have left it a little bit longer because she knew that he was just out there doing his thing. But if yeah, she but she knew that they had plans.

SPEAKER_02 46:52

So like you know, like if you're setting up a plan for a certain date, you know, like you're that only gives you a certain amount of time before they start looking into it versus like we don't have any plans coming up, there's nothing to Yeah. You know, it's just weird.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

It's also weird that his family told police that he told them that he was planning on disappearing. Like, I don't know. Why wouldn't they say like mention that until the police asked them? Or maybe they did, but like I don't know, it just seems like that's not a theory that is what people are going with. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

It's just it's another weird thing.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

Seems like a desperate attempt to like cover up something.

SPEAKER_00 47:31

But did the mother ever know that she did would the mother never know that? Like maybe like surely discover that years later that he told the family that or like Yeah, I think maybe.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

And she knew that that she knows that they said that, because then she's like, that just is so out of character for him to even say that or plan to do that.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

So I don't know. I wonder if like he wasn't like sleeping on like benches and stuff, would they take it seriously? More like Yeah, that's a thing.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Yeah, if he had if he had like more money and was staying in like hotels and would they have probably been right on right on it right away.

SPEAKER_02 48:12

Yeah, I think like he probably like has something to do with the biker gang. Like something happened at that party, made someone mad, and they like did something to him later. And maybe the and maybe the uh manager guy, like maybe like the biker he was in with the gang or like doing some shady shit at the campground, like some illegal stuff, maybe, and that's why he was trying to cover it up, because then that would have like revealed what he was up to, even if it wasn't related, but like Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

Yeah, and yeah, and some people have also thought like maybe it was the biker gang and he's like Charles saw something that he wasn't supposed to see, and then that's why he never went back to the campground because he knew they were there, but then then they caught up with him anyways. So maybe they knew he'd be they'd be waiting for him at the campground. That's why he never went back. But then they found him. Like that's one possibility, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 49:02

And were they hoping? Like maybe the person, I'm thinking maybe the person who sent those anonymous letters was involved and just somehow knew that there was a body there that they would find and hope that they wouldn't know it wasn't him. I don't know. Because then they're like, oh, they think it's him. The case closed, no one's gonna look into it. But I mean you would have to assume that they're gonna know it's not him. They're gonna do some type of test.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

How do he know that it was down there though? Like that's a weird thing. And if he and what a coincidence if there was someone right by that bridge that happened to be, I don't know, in this in the same spot that he said. But it's weird that they first they sent the note. They were searching and like, no, you're searching on the wrong side of the bridge. It's like it's like he knew. I don't know. It just seems so specific that he knew there was someone down there. Or maybe he actually did think it was Charles down there, and he knew there was a body down there, and he thought it was, and they just happened to be wrong. I don't know. It's a mystery.

SPEAKER_02 49:52

But why would he think that there wasn't a body down there? That's weird.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

I don't know. That's why maybe that's why he wanted to stay anonymous and like they he knew somebody was murdered and thrown down there. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 50:06

But thought it was Charles. I don't know, that's weird.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Yeah, maybe. Maybe it maybe something went down in the campground that night and he knew someone got murdered and just assumed it was Charles. But it wasn't. I don't know. Yeah, so cr or Cold Case Canada posted in um on May 26th of 2024, kind of like the missing person poster, um, and what he like the age progression. And um say if you have any information, please contact the RCMP at 250-762-3300 or Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-8477.

SPEAKER_02 50:50

And who knows, maybe someone will. I I feel like I've said this before, but like I'm seeing more and more. There's like I saw even just yesterday, there was like a 40-year-old cold case that got solved. They found the person through like new DNA or something.

SPEAKER_01 51:02

Yeah, I think the DNA is so much better now. You can like even get it off old remains that like maybe were like um un unidentified remains, right? So Yeah. Maybe they did find them, but they just don't know they did, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 51:17

So Yeah. So you never know.

SPEAKER_01 51:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:21

Crazy.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

Could still happen. Be nice for his mom to have closure after like 37 years.

SPEAKER_02 51:28

Yeah. So it's the harder because it's like the more time that goes by, like the less likely it is. Mm-hmm. I know. Like I feel like there has to be a certain number of time. Like I feel like after like five years, like statistically, probably way less likely after like a certain number of years.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

So like after 40 years or 35, it's like Yeah, because people, even people that did know something are like gone or like dead. So they there's nobody out there anymore that would even know anything.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Yeah. And like who's gonna come forward? Like the granddaughter of someone who knew something, who told them something sometime. But they can't like question the actual person if that person's dead. So you're gonna just question like a person who was told something, like you know what I mean? Like it's not very reliable.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

Yeah, there's no way to prove any of it.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

Yeah. That sucks. Yeah, so crazy. So yeah, um so that does it for this episode of the show and for our season. So that's thanks so much for joining us for this season of the show, and we will be back at some point. Probably we always come back at some point. We never know. We never know when, but um We always come back eventually. Yeah, probably in the fall or early winter.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

I had a great first season.

SPEAKER_02 52:49

Oh yeah. Lisa, tell us about your first season on the show. Her only season? I'm kidding. Just kidding. We'll we'll evaluate. We'll we'll we'll evaluate during the during the break and determine determine next week. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_00 53:10

You might have something we might go have some new themes next season.

SPEAKER_02 53:17

Yeah, we've already been we've already been discussing what we want to do for the next season and what the theme will be. We'll change it off a bit. If there will be a thing.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:24

Are we? Do we know?

SPEAKER_00 53:25

Oh, I thought we were. We'll see.

SPEAKER_02 53:29

Anyway, yeah, so yeah, that does it for this season. Uh, if you are a fan of the show, you can follow us on all the social media. So Crime Family Podcast on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and you can find us on YouTube. Just search Crime Family Podcast on YouTube for the video versions of the episodes. Make sure you subscribe on YouTube as well. Uh, you can also find the video versions on Spotify. But if you're listening anywhere else other than YouTube or Spotify, it will just be the audio for now. So if you want video, it will have to be in one of those two places. You can also email us if you have case suggestions. Like I said, we're in the early stages of thinking about our next season and what theme we're going to do or what cases. So if you want to have maybe you'll bring forth an interesting case that we will look into and maybe it will you'll be part of developing the next season. Who knows? But um, yeah, so if you have any case suggestions or feedback or theories on any of the cases we've done this season or any other season, then just send us an email, crimefamilypodcast at gmail.com. And we'll still be monitoring our emails and social medias and stuff all over the throughout the break. So we'll st we're still here. We'll get back to you if we can. There's lots of ways to engage with us if you would like. With that being said, thank you for listening this season. We'll be back soon with uh with season eight. So until then, take care. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

Bye. Bye.