Michelle Tillis Lederman: The Connector's Advantage

We talk about your career, influence and making impact with Michelle Tillis Lederman.

00:35 Insights & Takeaways
10:00 Interview

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Transcript

Marcus Kirsch: 0:15

Welcome to the wicked podcast where we read business books you don't have time for. I'm Marcus Kirsch.

Troy Norcross: 0:21

And I'm Troy Norcross,

Marcus Kirsch: 0:23

and we are your co hosts for the wicked podcast,

Troy Norcross: 0:26

we take from the 1000s of business books out there and test the author's ideas by comparing them to real world challenges. With over 40 years or projects between us, we've got quite a bit to compare against. We give you the condensed takeaways followed by an interview with the author's

Marcus Kirsch: 0:41

we know you want actions, not theories and his actions that we want to help shape, because that's what the wicked podcast is all about helping you to become a wicked company.

Troy Norcross: 0:52

So Marcus, get in the Wayback Machine, I mean, the way wayback machine and think, when did we meet? Where did we actually first meet?

Marcus Kirsch: 1:04

I thought the first time I ever saw you and what I think we didn't talk much at that point was at that pitch meeting over in the innovation warehouse. You were just there one day, I just saw you. I think I just got you came in late. You were late. And it just came in there. And you're very confident, a bit different to a bit younger than the rest of the old guys with money. But yeah, and I think I just got your name that was a and I think then the next time around, we might have met there again, I think it was something around either maybe I looked something up around you or whatever. And you were just about work unfettered startup. And so I interviewed you about blockchain for my book. I think that was the proper second time in the cafe rounds. And Paul's when I was working on a bt project,

Troy Norcross: 1:47

but it was that initial connection. And then it was working between us to kind of build and grow that connection to where now we're doing a podcast together. So on that basis, who are we talking to today?

Marcus Kirsch: 1:59

So yes, connections. So we're talking to Michelle tell us Letterman, and her book, the connectors advantage. See, she's written to this fourth book, she said, I'm wrong. And it's all about how we connect how to build good connections, and the value and strategies and tips and tricks and how to do that better.

Troy Norcross: 2:18

And with good connections, you can achieve results better, faster, easier. So really, really concise kind of value proposition.

Marcus Kirsch: 2:27

Exactly, exactly. So So what were you your actions, you proposed actions out of conversation? And so what am I going to tell people that they should be doing tomorrow in an organisation,

Troy Norcross: 2:37

she talked about how important connections are within an organisation even more so now that people are working from home remote working. So create those virtual water cooler moments, create those opportunities for serendipity within your organisation and keep those relationships strong? Whether you've got them or whether you don't? The other thing she talked about is, she's got two different frameworks, one for asking, and one for deciding if you're going to say yes or no to different requests. It's really, really important that in an organisation, you practice asking for what you need, and use the framework the easy opt out. Yes, if it's, if you've got enough time, don't be afraid to say no. And this is what I'd like you to do. And then the ability to decide yes or no and have a framework worked out on when you're gonna say yes, and when you're not. So I think those two things are virtual water cooler, keep the relationship strong, and in an organisation practice both saying yes, I need help. And yes, or no, I'm willing to offer it.

Marcus Kirsch: 3:42

Yeah, that's great. I think that's great on especially the internal things, so I kind of go a bit external, and I think I gotta, I gotta be able to tie it back to wicked problems. So the whole idea of understanding and listening and looking at the context understanding of context goes into hearing as many different kind of views and voices as possible. And you can only do that if you start connecting, right, and you connect outside of your bubble, you connect outside of your silo, you connect outside of what you think might be the obvious people to talk to, or the hierarchical, obvious people to talk to. And I can say that often enough to getting out there. And bringing those voices in is has been statistically proven to be a really, really high value you de risk when you do that. You understanding a problem more holistically. And in particular, to give you some examples I did in organisations is when I was working in the advertising industry, I saw a lot of creative teams sitting in their glass boxes, coming up with ideas watching YouTube, you know, and in order to get into subject matter asset, what are you doing so I dragged him out there into shops onto the main street and go have a look where people buy Have a look what they're doing, why and You know, to understand how they're even shopping, right? What are you doing in your box out there, and it doesn't cost a penny to step out of the office. So did these kind of things. And that brought different viewpoints in different different contexts that you don't understand until you feeling it until you really in the field, right. So that was one thing or to go on and talk to people out there in the shop and say, I'm sorry, you know, doesn't isn't that it's always lovely. The other thing is, I remember just a Tom Peters saying, he doesn't respect anyone who doesn't go into a cab, and not having a chat with the cab driver, doesn't respect people like that. It's like, every, every time he does, he does it bad, you know, impersonating his voice. You know, he was like, really, really, really passionate about it. And so and it makes perfect sense, you know, it's like, you're gonna get a good variety that's likely outside of your usual kind of remit to to just, it's the easiest chat you can have in a day, if you jump into a cab. The other part also that I found when I was working, in particular, the PT project was on when we went out and building your service design team is doing customer research. Not only did we ask different questions, but we started to really ask different people, people that were never asked before in that organisation, the question we would ask them, and people who are so grateful. So it's even a positive experience, and the team's loved it, right? People, teams would never done this before and thought, I don't know a bit careful about it, like, get into this discomfort zone, because actually, to pay out is amazing. And you're gonna connect to people across the organisation, understand them better, they'll be happy that you actually ask about how their how their work is how their life is sometimes. And it really, really helps, you know, and the other thing she as well mentioned, you know, I asked one out as well, it's like, it's, it's, it's now becoming such a amazing, statistically proven skill set for anyone to have, because we're going to more likely have cross disciplinary teams, we're going to more likely have to deal with wicked complex problems, and needs that we have to fulfil on the customer side in order to create value. developing the skills of a connector is great for everyone in any job. You know, Google's been proving that also, those types of soft skills, make the best teams to Ms decorate the best innovation. So it's an amazing value. So I would say, you know, do that tomorrow, inside your organisation. And when you're dealing with customers, to more different kinds of voices to make and step out of your bubble. And as you said, you know, on social media, we're starting to diminish it, step out, listen to someone else, and meet someone else. And I think it's it's an it's, it's, it's a great book because of that. And I think those are just some of the simple, simple actions anyone can do. doesn't cost a penny,

Troy Norcross: 7:46

really, really good insights. But the last thing she said was, you know, make a list and reach out and just make a random connection to say hello to three or four people. So that's on my task list for tomorrow. And on that note, Marcus, what should we do?

Marcus Kirsch: 8:00

Let's go to the interview. Hello, everyone. Today, we have Michelle Tillis, Letterman with us. Hello, Michelle, how are you doing? And thank you for being here.

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 8:13

I'm great. Thanks for having me on the show.

Marcus Kirsch: 8:15

So we normally start at the top with always same question which goes to you as well, which is, please tell us a little bit about yourself and why you wrote the book.

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 8:26

You know, I always find that challenging question. Just tell me about yourself. I'm like, Well, I'm an adrenaline junkie, I love to travel. I love animals. I'm a mom of two, you and I know that's not usually what people mean. But I actually think that those are the important things to share, because that's where connection forums. And that's really what I'm all about is connection. I am a recovering CPA, I spent 10 years in finance, I started my own business. God, I think we're going on 1516 something years at this point. And I am on a mission to help people communicate to connect.

Marcus Kirsch: 9:05

Lovely, and so you are not just the author of one books, but many books. So and your last one, tell us a little bit more about what what made that or what made that manifest into reality.

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 9:19

You know, I I've written four books. My first was called the 11 laws of likeability. And my latest, the conductor's advantage, actually, is the follow up to that book. And in between, I wrote these books and I kind of I really wanted to write the connectors advantage. But I had to finish off these other books first, because I promise people those books. So it was almost my reward to be able to get this message out. And my brother in law walked into my office one day as I was finishing up the connectors advantage and he said, What's the difference between networking and connecting? And I looked at him and I said, networking is something you do a connectors who you are. I said, Oh my God, thank you. That's the last line of my book.

Unknown: 10:00

dress. Pro,

Troy Norcross: 10:01

I love those little serendipity moments when they're just gonna fall out. It's great.

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 10:06

Yeah. And so, when I wrote the first book, it was really about what to do before, during, and after a conversation to enable connection. And it really, the publishers were like, you have to use the word networking in the title. And I did on like, I hate networking, networking has the word work in it, and who wants to do something, that's the word work in it. And I don't want you to feel like you're doing something. I want you to kind of approach life and attractions and people and work and everything that you do with a prioritisation of relationships. And that's what a connector does. They put relationships first.

Marcus Kirsch: 10:41

So so when you have a look at that, and given all the range of amazing examples, you've given a book and having written so many books around this area of subject matter. So what when when when people read the books, or when people approached you, or people who work with your clients or CEOs? What what what do they normally ask you most? As a question regarding and what sort of comes out where you go? That's sort of the most valuable or appropriate question.

Troy Norcross: 11:10

Marcus, we did get a bit of feedback on that particular question. It might have been suggested that we skip it. Yeah. So So why don't we could edit that question out?

Marcus Kirsch: 11:22

I can easily do that. Right.

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 11:24

The reason is that I get so many different questions. So I'm happy to feel that if you'd like?

Troy Norcross: 11:28

Well, tell us tell us an interesting question. Maybe it's not the most common question. Tell us most interesting question. See, I was asked you. Oh,

Unknown: 11:41

you know,

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 11:43

it's hard to say, you know, just one question. You know, and I think that was my childhood with that question, in general, but, you know, the questions I'm asked a lot are typically around how to drive perceptions. When we are forming relationships, we had insecurities about how we're being perceived. And one of the things that when I'm working internally, organisations is often around how to drive how people are seeing you and receiving you. And so that is part of your communication, it's being able to bring your authentic self is held to embody some of these mindsets of connection, without the relationship at risk.

Troy Norcross: 12:25

Okay, that's, that's a really good kind of summary. And we, we've got another question that we'll come back to about this whole idea of perception. But going kind of back to the question list that we we sent you in advance was, you've already got a really nice section in the book about how do you maintain relationships remotely? And I would guess, was that written kind of before COVID. It was written before COVID. But it was a really, really pertinent sort of thing, and really relevant now. And I think it's interesting to me to ask, do you think it's harder to build and maintain connections? With part B of the question? Do you think that people who had good connections going into all of our kind of remote working and COVID and locked down have had an easier time of it than those who haven't?

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 13:12

I think it's a really interesting observation of that. Yes, I do. I think people who had already built connections, this time actually gave them the reason to reach out one of the things people struggle with is, I have no reason to reach out. And I always say, you don't necessarily need a reason, right? You can just say, hey, you just came into my mind just thinking about you, how's it going? I sent emails like that all the time. But now, with the pandemic, you have an excuse globally, to reach out to every single person that you're connected to, to just say, Hey, how are you doing? Are you okay? And to kind of re establish that connection to strengthen the roots of that connection. And if you have connections, then you're golden. Because this is a time where people are welcoming that reach out. I mean, I haven't seen my college friends and my business school friends this much since I was in those schools, because we're meeting online, we're having game nights, and we're going to the backyards and putting blankets around ourselves. So we can be outside in the cold and still stay connected. So yes, but the four part of that is, how do we, you know, deal with staying connected when we're in these remote locations, and how do you start to build them, and that's a harder challenge, because we don't have the water cooler or the live events or the serendipity. So we have to be a little bit more intentional, which is something I've always kind of shied away from. You know, I've always said you know, just find the person online at the playground or the supermarket and I've met people at dog park getting, you know, at the nail salon, so finding those natural forms of connection. Those aren't happening now. So we do have to be intentional, we are going to these online events, and hopefully they're doing breakout rooms. And hopefully you're putting those names down, and then you follow up with them. And then you try to get a phone call. And you have to go through a lot more steps to try to start to build that connection. But it's still real possum.

Troy Norcross: 15:19

You know, one of the conferences that I attended was a phone conference, of course, it was all zoom. But they said, with people over a certain age, and we won't talk about age, right, not gonna talk about age, people over a certain age are more likely to shield and more likely to stay in because the potential impacts are much greater, whereas the younger people are still out there out and about doing things. And they said serendipity will be become the joy of the young. And trying to find serendipity moments when we are working from home locked away is indeed much harder. So I think that lines up really well.

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 15:56

Yeah. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I was gonna say, and especially those that are somewhere in between, who have kids who are also schooling from home, and we're not going to hear them jumping over my head. You know, there's just so many requirements on a demands of you at this point, that there's just no excess time or energy.

Marcus Kirsch: 16:20

And what do you what do you say to people, so, um, I used to be more introverted than I am now. But I know a lot of people are quiet, and you know, those. for them. There is a tendency that it's even harder to go and network, even in a, let's say, normal situation. And, and now you're sitting there and by yourself in a room on a laptop, and you're trying to figure out what steps to take, or people who just have a hard time asking anyone for something for all sorts of reasons, because it's sometimes really hard for people to ask and ask for help, for example, and I've been talking to quite a few friends of mine, and you can, you could start to see, you know, over the month, sort of the mental levels to a little bit breakdown, and people just get everything gets a little bit harder. So I can imagine for introverts who, where it's easier to remove yourself from something rather to engage with something, it's at least twice as hard. So do you have any particular ways to maybe mind hack that for for people who have those tendencies? and more, what do you normally what do you normally say to them? Absolutely.

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 17:24

And there's two things that you brought up. One is the introvert angle. And the other was how to ask for something which we can circle back to. I actually always say that introverts have a bit of an edge when it comes to connection, because introverts actually are better in the one on one. I have a lot of introverts Tell me, this is great. I'm loving this, you know, this isn't bothering me at all. You know, and it's true, there's a drain for the extroverted energy, that we don't have that outside input that drives us. So our energy source has disappeared. But yes, it might be easier for extroverts to reach out. Whereas introverts, they feel energised because they have so much of that quiet energy that they can pull from so that they might be able to pull from that energy to do some of this reach out. And what I will tell introverts is understand your skills that you naturally bring to the table, you're better listeners, you're better at the one on one you are not off putting you are somebody who is curious and asks good probing questions. So bring those strengths. And guess what you don't have to navigate a big crowd, you get to pick one or two people. And it doesn't have to be every day, it could be one or two people every week, you can go online, spend five minutes, pick a person on LinkedIn, send a personalised note, and you're like I'm done for the day. And so if you do a little bit of that every day or every week, and then wait for those follow ups, as people start to accept them, then you send a little note and say, you know, here's why I reached out and, you know, looking to keep connected to people in the industry during this you know, shutdown time. Are you open for a phone call? Right or zoom?

Marcus Kirsch: 19:09

Yeah, so it's really interesting when you when you talk about the energy of introvert because that probably explains everything why this podcast probably exists. Because it's nearly a one to one that's really lovely. So when we're when we're looking at I think it's something that came from Troy but you know, Troy, you want to you want to go into the pick your brain.

Troy Norcross: 19:29

Well, I want to give her an opportunity to come back and reach back to the follow up to the it's difficult to ask. I've been through various stages in my life and asking for help is not something I do very easily I've gotten better at it. And I've gotten better at receiving I think for for me I had a really good kind of career coach for a while said the first thing you got to do is be okay receiving and then it gets better at asking, but give us your take on how do you get better at asking

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 20:00

Well, I'll tell you a secret, it's hard for me to. And that's why there's a whole chapter in the book dedicated to it. So one of the things that we talked about are the mindsets of a connector. There's seven mindsets, and one of those mindsets is have a clear vision, that the only way to get the connection advantage, which is faster, easier, better results, right, whatever it is you're working on, you're going to get there faster, easier and better through connection. But if you don't have a clear vision of what you're trying to accomplish, how are you going to accomplish it? So the first thing is getting really clear on what it is you're working on. And maybe it's you're working on promoting your podcast, maybe I'm working on getting reviews for my book, or selling books or whatever it might be. And when you have that clarity, when you're in a conversation with somebody, connectors will always infuse a question around how they can help. Right? So they'll say something like, what are you working on? Or who would you like to connect with? or How can I help you right now? Or, you know, you know, what do you need? You also need to have an abstract question. Hmm. So expect the question we posed to you and doesn't have to be big. I once said, I want to make Michelle Obama, I will tell you, but putting it out there, I spoke on the phone to her chief of staff when she was in office, wow, to speak directly to her. But I got damn close. And I got my heroes get hired book in front of her because you had a veteran programme. So you have to put it out there, you have to be have that clarity. Now, you also need to be able to ask in a way that doesn't put the relationship at risk. And I kind of list through about four or five different ways that you can make an ask and I'll just give you one example. My favourite and I use it all the time is called the opt out ask. This makes it as easy for somebody to say no as it is for them to say yes. Because no is hard. And yes, it's easy. And if I have to say no, now I feel bad. And I want to avoid you. And that puts the relationship at risk. But if you make it okay to say no, then I'm like, Oh, sure, we're cool. And I, you know, I might get a guest down the road. So when you ask you give them the reason to say no. So I might say something like, if your company allows I would really welcome a recommendation on LinkedIn. Company. That's my way. Oh, well, don't worry about it, if you have the time to post a review on Amazon. And so I give them the out. Yeah,

Troy Norcross: 22:24

I think that's only one of the strategies, and we won't reveal them all, because we do want people to read your book, but it was a really, really good section. But it does lead me nicely on to my next kind of pet peeve. Oh, Troy, have you got half an hour for a coffee for dinner, I really want to pick your brain. I'm like, you know, if you my brain isn't free, you know, there's a whole lot of decent stuff surrounded by a whole bunch of garbage. But there's a whole lot of decent stuff in there. And picking my brain isn't free. Now it turns out that the better the connection, the better the relationship, the more established. It is, indeed a quid pro quo given given take. But when a complete stranger or a very early connection says Can I pick your brain? How do I say no, properly? Because one of my favourite sayings before you say that? If you never say no, you're yes doesn't mean as much.

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 23:18

Oh, that's an interesting thing. There's so many places, I want to take this, you know, and bring me back to the quid pro quo because I want to address that. But that's a side note. So one of the other mindsets that I talked about is conscientiousness. collectors do what they say they're going to do they follow up, they follow through. As a result, they need to be really clear what they're willing to say yes to and what they want to say no to. But there's different ways to say yes. And to say no. And I usually think that they're not one word answers. Yes. If yes, after Yes. When Yes, with yes for or no, but the No, but it's great. And so for example, I'm asked all the time to do pro bono talks. Mm hmm. And I do believe in giving back. That is absolutely the generous spirit is another one of the mindsets. But I also have two kids through college. We have to balance that. And so I have a certain number of slots per year that I get to probono. Right. And there's certain requirements, right? So it has to be an organisation that either I believe in or, you know, there has to be several parts of the organisation I have, there has to be a certain number of people that are in the audience, that you know, and I there has to be within a certain distance of my home, like so there's certain things that I'm like, well, let's see if you meet these criteria. And so when you establish boundaries, when you establish clear criteria, it makes it a lot easier for you to say yes or no. And when you have to say no, you can say no. But if you can get a larger audience No, but if you want to do a book purchase, no. But if you want to do a minimum payment guarantee or you know, here's other ways to get to a yes But without one of those ways, it's a no.

Troy Norcross: 25:03

Right? And did your cousin like showing up in your book?

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 25:09

I'm not sure she knows.

Troy Norcross: 25:12

Right? Okay, fine. So moving swiftly on. But the quid pro quo what you suppose let's come back to quid pro quo.

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 25:21

So when you talked about Can I pick your brain? Like You I struggle with this because having a generous spirit Do you want to give, I don't believe in a quid pro quo, I do in a giving a generous spirit and give because you can give because you want to and give without expectation of something in return. That said, you need to have your boundaries. So I, I have in the past, and this has, you know, evolved over the years as my demands and you know, class have increased, you know, the pastor is like, I'll give anybody, you know, an hour, that a PM, I'll give anybody a half hour. And then I'm now probably around 15 minutes to most people, you know, but I have to say no more, because I had a time where I didn't even get lunch break, my assistant had every 15 minutes blocked. And I'm like, I can't read. And what I do now is, you know, I invite people to ask the questions, and then I will point them towards the resources that are already online. So I'll say, here's my blog, here's my YouTube channel, here's a quick response go here for more. Right? You know, if, if they're looking for coaching, a lot of times, I will get on the phone and talk them out of it. Okay, because I don't think everybody understands how to best leverage coaching and that coaching is not, at least with me, an expensive endeavour. So I'd rather give you 15, or even 30 minutes of my time for free, help you in some small way. Create a positive mood, memory and Associates association with me and save you money. And maybe somewhere down the road. In five years, you might be working in a company remember me and bring me in to do corporate coaching. That has happened. I actually was looking today I was doing my Thanksgiving gifts to some of my clients. And I looked at my second largest client from 2020, which was not a great year. And I looked back and I had met her which is an audience member at one of my talks in 2013. Seven years ago, she didn't hire me for at least 345 years that we stayed in touch. Because I liked her because we connected. We maintained a relationship. When she had a question I would get on the phone, I would give her free advice often. And she may never have hired me, this one happened to I have other people that have never hired me, but maybe they referred me. Or maybe they just say nice things about me behind my back. And I'm okay with that, too.

Troy Norcross: 28:03

I made a connection in 1999 with a guy who just last year hired me. I met him initially in Indianapolis, Indiana, we work together in California, I'm now working for him and he's in Hong Kong. But again, made that initial connection, kept in touch over the years, didn't have any idea and any expectation that anything would happen and all at once the planets lined up. And I love when those things happen.

Unknown: 28:30

There you go.

Marcus Kirsch: 28:32

So so let me a little bit for next question shift is a bit into organisations themselves, because we, I remember, in one of our first episodes, we had Tom Peters on who talked a lot about people first and about, I think there's a managing through walking about basically talking to a lot of people and just connecting with an organization's. And that being sort of a value that's often not really used. And given that in any given job that we have, we have a lot of things to do. But beyond the original scope, there's always the benefit of knowing bit more about the people you work with, or the people in your organisation or partners, and so on and so on. So the whole idea of connecting, there seems to be a really great value that's often really not encouraged maybe by companies, often because of silos and departments. But you know, it seems to be a big benefit in the way in to great better companies. So do you have any? Do you have any thoughts on that connecting with an organization's

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 29:34

it is a huge benefit. Actually, the statistics show that the number one driver of engagement is the belief that management has an interest in their people and they demonstrate that interest in their people. And when you have high engagement, you have higher productivity and you're outperform other companies with low engagement by over 200%. So there's statistics that back all of this up. So creating connected cultures and organisations is actually a financial decision not just a morale decision, not just a retention decision, which are also financial. But there's loyalty, turnover, engagement, productivity, all of those things. Because a connection, there's a study that gives 12 questions to engagement. And one of those questions is, do you have a best friend at work? Because we're happier at work. And you're more productive, when you have close work relationships.

Troy Norcross: 30:30

So just always have a work wife.

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 30:36

My actual husband is probably also my work husband, but you know, I don't think he wants to be. But so the key is, how do we create connected cultures, and I actually think the pandemic is going to contribute really positively on this front. Because what we're seeing is, organisations being getting that window into their employees lives, we're seeing the dog tails and the cat tails, and the kids popping in. And those moments of, you know, chaos. And what it is, is allowing us shells, we always say, bring your whole self to work in one camp. And another camp is, this is work that is personal, those two shall not cross. And those are our perspectives and preferences. But now they're just smashing into each other. And I think empathy in the workplace has increased, I think, that connectedness that, you know, shifts in what's acceptable, and you know, and we become more relatable. So I love all of that. And I think some companies are even being intentional about it, my husband's organisation, they had, you know, kind of put in little games and, you know, questions at the beginning of meetings, he actually invited his whole team out to our backyard for an in person gathering during this, and everyone put their masks on, and they took a picture, and they put it in the company Town Hall, like, hey, look what teams are doing. So, so I think, because we all feel so disconnected organisations are a place where we're finding that connection, and hopefully it will last.

Marcus Kirsch: 32:18

Yeah, it's really interesting to see because, you know, we're really obviously COVID has, as you said, smashed a lot of things together were quite separated, and often artificially so. And it also reminds me because having a background both in service design and agile, you know, we use a lot of icebreakers when we do workshops. And so things as you often in workshops do, but also in projects when you build new teams, and the whole idea of that is obviously, to very quickly build a connection that is a bit more value. So you get to know someone in five or 10 minutes, and you know, you do games, like I want to, you know, go up to in pairs, and basically, find three things that you have in common, however, flimsy they are, and it's hilarious. And it's funny, and it's personal. And it's just makes the room very quickly, creative, a different culture. And so do you, do you see through that these things are improving as that sort of, because a company started to talk a lot about culture, especially the whole bean bag, we were kind of culture that toxicity more about aesthetics, and actually, people to some extent, but do you see that really, really changing? Or if you say it's such a big value? And something companies can do in order to maybe measure it better? Or is this something you've been proposed before I have dealt with?

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 33:39

I love the question of measurement. And I think a lot of companies do engagement surveys and things like that. You know, I think there's a lot of different things that can work. And there's not one approach, right, whether it's surveys, whether it's focus groups, whether it's having these team building activities. It's, you know, facilitated conversations around what do you believe our core values are or revisiting those mission vision statements annually, or every few years, because especially with companies that are doing acquisitions, and are growing, those core values get a little dissipated and disconnected. So I do think that there's a lot of things that can be done organizationally, I do worry that once we're back in person, we're going to forget about some of them. But I think, you know, companies can instal programmes like mental programmes, or buddy programmes. I remember when I had my first job at Arthur Andersen and it doesn't exist anymore. But back in my finance days, I was actually assigned a buddy. I'm still friends with person this day. It was the person who was supposed to be personal could ask those stupid questions too. And she was only one or two years ahead of me and it was safe. We were also assigned mentors. They were much further ahead. They were more about her career path, but they were putting these relationships in place for us.

Troy Norcross: 35:05

Really, really interesting. When I looked at Nokia, they were reverse mentors. So some of the senior VPS were being mentored by some people that were closer to the coalface, you know, down in the organisation, to make sure that they were connected closer to what was going on with the with the company. And again, building those relationships, which are all about trust. There's a huge bit in your book about trust. And I absolutely believe that trust is one of those key foundations, to connections and growth and establishment kind of over time. I'm going to shift where we're running out of time, we always have more questions than we have time for. And this is, this is an awkward question to ask because I like to keep things kind of upbeat and light, but this one's not so much. Social media has really started driving a wedge and polarising people. And a lot of people are reading either social media or mainstream media or whatever they want. And they're outsourcing their critical thinking. And this boils down to two of your concepts, one of people like themselves the law of similarity. And the other one is the law of perception and perception being reality. And I think there's so much media coming at people, that their perception is indeed impacted, if not twisted. And then the more division you get, the more tribalism you get. It's the law of similarity taken to extremes. So how do you work in in the middle?

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 36:37

And remember, last in sixth grade, I'm headed on to a melting pot or tossed salad. And the the thing back then was it's a melting pot in my response is, it's a toss salad. Yeah, see all those individual different pieces of fruits and vegetables, and cretin, three nuts. They're in the same space, but they're all individual, right? Sometimes, but that's all the bottom and they're all at the bottom. And you know, so we tend to go, as you say, in our little groups, I don't think it's changed, I actually do think it's gotten worse. And I make and so here's what I would say, make a conscious choice, to diversify your connections, to be a more inclusive connector, and to broaden your thinking, because for me for so many reasons, but if you want to be more influential, if you want to be listened to if you want to be deemed credible, and trustworthy. And if you want to be viewed as innovative. Increasing your connections, likeability and diversification of your connections, will give you all of those things. Because when you are seen as likeable, your ideas are received in a way that people will then play off of them and morph them, and you have a collaboration. And you're then credited with this great morphed idea that you just started, because people want to hear from you. So innovation is really driven by connection, and being able to connect people to thoughts and ideas, and to bring in those diverse thinking. I do a programme called, you know, communicating with diverse personalities. And it's understanding what each of those personalities, those thinking styles brings to a project and to a conversation. And that sometimes when you don't have the voice of one of those styles, there's something going to be lost in that project. So I made a point during the election of listening to, I would say at least half a dozen different news stations, just to see what everyone is hearing, and to challenge my own thinking so that I'm not just always on the same station every day. You know, and I would challenge us to do that. I do, you know, we do tend to be friends with people who speak similarly to us. And, you know, I see this in my children, I try to say, you know, hey, nobody's all good. Nobody's all bad. And, and I will never forget back in 2016 election, when the debate moderator said say one nice thing about your opponent. I think it's a fabulous question. Because nobody is all good or all bad.

Troy Norcross: 39:28

Yeah, very true. Listen, we're gonna wind up the show here, unfortunately. I mean, you've written not one book, but four individual books. And in the show notes, we'll put all the contact information and links to where people can go and get these books. Got to ask, Are you working on another one?

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 39:47

I am. Oh,

Marcus Kirsch: 39:49

okay.

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 39:50

I am busy writing the blog. So I have a blog. And so there's constantly thought out there on the YouTube channel that I put some videos out pretty frequently. So the contents still being poured out. But those books are hard work.

Troy Norcross: 40:05

But Marcus knows all about that. Marcus. Any last words before we wrap up?

Marcus Kirsch: 40:09

Yeah. So thank you so much for your time and insights. And just just to, as a little note or comment on the last, the last insight you gave us, I think it resonates with me not just from a connecting thing. And being being an excellent work, just getting a bit more energy back from this in those in those times. So for me, that conversation was great to start with, and so as to book, but also like, it reminded me a lot on really looking at Google's project areas total, to look at the best performing teams and all these kind of soft skills that make the team's best. And one of them is definitely to, you know, be able to listen to all the voices on the table and get a variety of voices on the table. And that obviously, easily fuels into, you know, get to know, as diverse group of people, as you know, because you'll never know where the good stuff comes from, or you never know where the different angle comes from that you didn't know, you know, if I've been working in lots of projects, we never know where the pivots are coming from. Right. And so I think this works on so many levels. It's so valuable. It's it was it was really great talking to you. And it was a very inspiring and just popped up a lot of different connections for me, and I think I have to make a new list per day to get in contact with more people, I'm sure. So thank you so much, Michelle, thank you for your time and being with us.

Michelle Tillis Lederman: 41:29

Thanks for having me on. And I said if your listeners want to connect with me, I know all this stuff will be in the show notes. But I also have always some free gifts. And I have a quiz if people want to figure out what level connector they are. And I also give away a free chapter books and a video series and and checklists and things like that. So we'll put all that in the show notes, but you can always find me at my website, which isn't shelterless Letterman calm.

Marcus Kirsch: 41:51

Lovely. So thank you.

Troy Norcross: 41:55

I know you've been listening to the wicked podcast with CO hosts Marcus Kirsch and me Troy Norcross,

Marcus Kirsch: 42:03

please subscribe on podomatic iTunes or Spotify. You can find all relevant links in the show notes. Please tell us your thoughts in the comment section and let us know about any books for future episodes.

Troy Norcross: 42:16

You can also get in touch with us directly on Twitter on at wicked and beyond or at Troy underscore Norcross also learn more about the wicked company book and the wicked company project at wicked company calm