The Wicked Podcast

Nick Leach: Leading on Purpose

April 06, 2021 [email protected] Episode 40
The Wicked Podcast
Nick Leach: Leading on Purpose
Show Notes Transcript

We talk to Nick Leach about purpose and its relation to business benefits.

Author page: https://www.on-purpose.solutions
Book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com.au/Leading-Purpose-creating-purpose-culture/dp/1781334951

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Music:
'Inspired' by Kevin MacLeod
Song: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3918-inspired
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Marcus Kirsch:

Welcome to the wicked podcast where we read the business books you don't have time for. I'm Marcus Kirsch. And I'm Troy Norcross. And we are your co hosts for the wicked podcast.

Troy Norcross:

So not all of our guests know, Marcus in the background, we have WhatsApp going between us to make sure that we kind of know who's going to talk and who's not going to talk. And who is going to ask that question Who's not going to ask the next question? And today, what did you tell me? In the What's up? You're telling me to be nice?

Unknown:

Why?

Troy Norcross:

Why are you telling me to be nice? I'm very nice, very nice guy. I assure you all this guy.

Marcus Kirsch:

You're very nice. I'm the Rambler. And with a nice, man not to say you gave you gave. It was good. I like challenging question. I think we went in a really good path today. And I was quite happy about it. It was a lot of energy in the room, so to speak. It was good.

Troy Norcross:

I know. It's it's seven o'clock in the morning. For us. It was seven o'clock in the night for him. He was ready for a beer. We were all ready to go. But wait a minute. We haven't told anybody who's on the show.

Marcus Kirsch:

Yeah, so today, we're having Nick Leach. And his book leading on purpose about the importance of purpose in an organisation, especially around leadership.

Troy Norcross:

Yeah, and I came in fairly strong as a classic certified Boomer saying this is just millennial fluff. And we need to kind of figure out whether purpose and profit are mutually exclusive or not. So one of my big takeaways is gonna be the fact that he's absolutely right. When it's done well, and done authentically. Profit and purpose are not mutually exclusive. But it's not an easy journey. And it's not been very common. The other big takeaway, and I keep coming back to this, especially with the last five years and the way society has been changing, emotion is indeed the thing. And he says, logic leads to conclusions. Emotion leads to actions. And I think that's a really great thing for organisations and teams and leaders to always keep in mind, but those are my two takeaways. What did you take away from today?

Marcus Kirsch:

Yeah, I think that line was really good. So I, what I took away is, because I have the thing of and I came across, I come across this, a lot of companies who, when they want to change when they want to improve when they want to be either more purpose driven, or more customer centric, which also can be part of the purpose, or one way to describe it in at times, is the governance behind it. Right. And I think a lot of what he talked about, needs a shift in a lot of leadership styles that are more classic. So my takeaway is that teams will challenge you, right. And that's the thing that should happen. Because once the purpose is agreed, and spread across the organisation, in theory, and I think we just had some of that also, in the podcast we recorded this yesterday is that if people go after the purpose, they will find different ways. And they will sometimes disagree. And they will do it differently. Because you just set them on a path, how they get there is often up to them, but you need to let them right. But if you let them do their stuff, it also means that I kind of challenge you as a leader. So teams will challenge you. And I think it's really important. And it's really important to put that in whatever governments you want to implement. Because if you put governance in where you were you push that down, you're not going to have it, people will not come up with the best ideas, they will not perform the best. So people, teams and people will challenge you. And you need to create that context. And I think that's quite important.

Troy Norcross:

Yeah. And I think teams challenging. And this wouldn't be was one of those podcasts where we were challenging the authors. And I think it's, it's not always bad to have a bit of a spirited debate. And we're not always 100% covering just what's in the book, because ultimately, we want people to read the books. But we also we want to know people understand who the author is, and the value they bring. And now I'm starting to sound like Marcus because I'm starting to ramble. So what should we do Marcus, we

Marcus Kirsch:

should go to the interview. Hello, everyone, and welcome to our podcast today. We have Nick Leach with us. Hello, Nick. Hello, and thanks for being with us.

Nick Leach:

Thank you, great to be here.

Marcus Kirsch:

Well, as usual, we start at the top so please tell our listeners a bit who you are and why you wrote your book.

Nick Leach:

Okay, so I spent probably the last 20 years with the multinational organisations and, and what I'm really passionate about is leadership. And one of the things I found is being a leader in one of those organisations is There's lots of books on why, and lots of books on what, but not many on the house. And so what I wanted to do was create a book, which helped, especially new leaders learn how to create a purpose led culture within an organisation because there's so much content out there. But there's not really anyone who's sort of provided new leaders, especially with a way to go about developing a purpose, and then actually putting it into place within an organisation. And so that was kind of the premise for the book.

Marcus Kirsch:

Wonderful, I think it's just as you know, people first, you know, purpose is a big word at the moment, if not a new, revitalised over the last year where a lot of people reflected on what we're doing and why and why things are going the way they're going. So what is it for you then what's your angle on? purpose driven is obviously a great idea. And I think there's a little evidence as well, that purpose driven organisations perform better. Why is it that we're still hanging on to this profit model so much? And what sort of steps to do to get to get off that mindset?

Nick Leach:

The Great question, I think part of the challenge is people are scared to organisations are scared. And they also don't know how I think what we've lost over the last, I guess, probably decade is actually what true leadership actually is. And we have a lot of, you know, especially for multinationals, when you look at their leadership programmes, they're actually management essentials, they're not leadership essentials, they don't tell people or help people to become leaders. And, and I think that's the gap, that's the so you don't have people striving to achieve a better tomorrow for their customers, they're really just going around getting their quarterly numbers or whatever they need to do. And the gap I see in most organisations is a lot do have a purpose. So they have a purpose statement that's written on the wall, it's the first slide of the PowerPoint presentation. But there's no connection from purpose to strategy to execution. And it's making sure that there's that link from purpose to strategy, which is the enabler which really transforms organisations because it means people start to make decisions, and focus on achieving what the ultimate goals of the organisation really is. And I think, you know, you look at most of the successful organisations over time have always been purpose driven. And in the beginning, especially, there's generally always a passionate leader, at the beginning of any organisation who's wanting to change the world in some way, and what's happened over time as the organization's get bigger, and you end up with far more tears of layers of management, that gets lost. And then it becomes about policies, procedures, quarterly targets, and things that, you know, most people lose the world to live over. And what we need to do is reengage back with that real reason for why this organisation exists, and what the ambition is for their customer, and really help them to go out there and, and give them permission to be bold, and, and go out there and really change the game. Because you know, I talk about a lot of workshops that I do, I sort of say to teams, we want to make this your time in the organisation worthwhile, we just don't want to have done the same shit everybody else has done sorry, action. But we want to go out there and work out how we do it better and how we do it differently. But how we ultimately do it for the right reasons as well. So that's part of what the book is hopefully inspiring for people or leaders to go out there and do. Okay, so

Troy Norcross:

I'm going to put on my kind of, let's take this exactly where a lot of people in my generation are going to go with this, your as a certified Boomer as opposed to the majority of these millenniums that are out there or Gen Zed that are that are coming up. I mean, there's a whole raft of these people that are coming up. And it's a lot of lip service. And it's a lot of kind of candy for them. But that's just kind of what they want to do. And it's soft and fluffy. But at the end of the day, the stock market is driving these businesses. It is indeed the quarterly numbers. It is the old Milton Friedman that says the only purpose of a corporation within the rules is to return value to shareholders. And the other thing is when you talk about the fact that we're not training people to be managers to be leaders, I've been around organisations I've worked for Nokia, which were big global organisations, the last thing they want is too many leaders. They want three or four leaders that set the set the organisation in train, and then they want managers to make the machine. So I mean, that's what I say is the reality. So this whole idea of purpose driven, yeah, it's nice and it's fluffy, but at the end of the day, it gets crushed by capitalism, and how do you respond to that?

Nick Leach:

You're and this is, you know, I used to we used to spend loads of time forecasting, right? The forecasting was rigged the results or the sales, the result is something else. Focus on the thing that delivers the sales. And this is where purpose really makes a difference and it's not about being flat. And lofty, lofty and there's a there's a distinct process to from how you say, how do we take what inspires us every day to get out of bed and come to work every morning. And how do we put that into day to day execution that really makes a difference. And then that will return far more quarterly margins than you've ever imagined. And, you know, it's what you focus on, you can't by looking at all focusing on the target doesn't help you achieve it, you actually have to go and do something. So the key for me is making sure that you have teams set up to go out there and do that. And most organisations and I would end big keen on your experience, as well as most organisations put teams in rooms and say, off you go go to it, they don't spend any time helping a team to actually put the qualities in place to become a team. So most of those teams end up being groups of individuals that come together to tell each other what they're doing, and they're working as individuals. And, and, you know, if you go back to, I think, I don't know, Steve Jobs, I think she'd that if all good or most powerful things came from groups of people working together. And that's part of the key. So I would say, totally understand that you've got to make your quarterly targets. And that's businesses there to make a profit, but you make a profit doing something, let's focus on what you're doing, and doing that better than everybody else. And then you'll win. Of course,

Troy Norcross:

we're hearing this more and more that truly purpose driven companies are indeed more profitable. But at this point in time, the empirical evidence is really, really thin. So I hope there's some level of momentum that comes along. And also what we're seeing is big, big organisations, big companies that have the capital, to be a bit kind of fluffy and focus on purpose, as opposed to small companies that are absolutely laser focused on I've got to do this, because I've got to make payroll, and when they need that kind of room to breathe, to be able to think about, okay, if I take my eye off what I know works and making my machine go and expand or shift to purpose driven, instead of profit driven, it's going to take some time. So I hope we get there, but I think it's, it's aspirational at this point,

Nick Leach:

I think there's a huge sort of broken into, say you either have to be purpose or profit driven as being opposites of each other. Whereas I think the way to achieve your profit is through purpose. So I don't, I don't sort of buy the idea that I have to get my quarterly target, I can't be purpose driven, because I need to just make the money. Because it's the way that the way that you can make the money will be far more successful if you're doing things or creating products that are aligned far more to your customers and you the ambition you have for your organisation. And I think there's a there's a real dilemma in you know, would you want to buy from a company whose sole focus was getting the next quarterly target? Or would you work want to buy from a company who's really trying their best to work out how to manage or deliver to you something that's far more exceptional, and people will pay more and, and this is where these organisations will generally make more profit because you can actually charge more because people will pay for value if they know what they're getting. And the minute you're in the generic business or commodity business you've lost, right? If you're selling you never sell the latest you sell a salad. You've got to have that understanding of how you get out of that commodity business. Because commodity just the price driven place, have no awareness and the organization's

Troy Norcross:

I'm going to come back with one more though my hand over to Marcus. I'm Michael O'Leary at Ryanair, because Michael O'Leary is absolutely zero value, maximum profit total commodity. And they're the biggest operating airline and in all of Europe on that basis. And his premise is people will not pay for quality, they will only pay for getting from point A to point B the cheapest way they can and that's what I'm delivering. So I think that we are indeed seeing some people will pay for the additional I I built this correctly. I was good environmentally I responsible with my labour and some people will pay more for that. But not everybody. But I will hand back over to Marcus because I'm dominating this because I feel so passionately about having a good debate about these topics. Now

Nick Leach:

I love the debate and I can I just say one more thing before we hand over his his i think is the the key is, is making that link from from purpose to your strategy. So your strategy is driven by what you're trying to do. Because I also think that that organisation could it's not about necessarily people don't necessarily want cups of coffee or they don't want all the stuff on the plane. It's a short plane ride it's getting there but to the same point as if there was a if there was an airline who who checked you in quicker, got you through the process faster did things they would beat you regardless of if it was five people would pay Five or $10, maybe more to bypass the shenanigans you have with getting on and off plane. So it's deciding what you say the value is that people are going to prepared to pay for an answering that, that I think you're sort of saying that people don't want the cups of coffee and everything else totally agree. But there's still ways you can improve that service being purpose driven, and, and deliver probably even better results.

Marcus Kirsch:

I think I think that that's, that's a nice segue to what I want to ask someone to pick up on something you said earlier. You know, I walk a lot around projects that to some extent, or often more as a wish list. Have in customer centricity. And with customer centricity, we'll talk about this extra value, right? It might even sit before purpose, but basically it's it's it's it's similar ambition to say, Ray, actually, as a business, we're not just focused on making profit for the business, but we're actually looking at who reserving why we're doing this right. So customer centricity is often there. And I see a lot of projects struggling with that state that the gap between that statement and executing it to have to balance between what we want to change from this profit driven attitude to something more purpose driven. But how do we define that? Right? How do we how do we describe essentially to target so that when the leader has is all set up, and narrative is there, which is greatness, as you rightly say, great leaders have this purpose to have a narrative often. But how do you get from that narrative to the narrative or the target of a team, because again, as you rightly said, if you just have a target, they tend to be often very narrow, often towards profit line, or some numbers instead of actually, purpose and purpose is more than just numbers, right? There's way more there, which is the good thing about it. So how do you close a bit the gap between purpose and target and you talk a bit about strategy? Can you can you elaborate on that, please?

Nick Leach:

Yeah, cool. And I think the the key is having the right purpose to so my, the way I describe having the purpose statement, it should be two things, it should be the ambition you have for your customer. And that's also understanding what people really buy. So people don't buy robots, they buy holes, in like, I came from the pharmaceuticals, people don't buy pills, they buy wellness, right? So if you understand what people are really buying is from you, and you understand the ambition you have for what you want to achieve for them. And you link that to what makes your organisation unique or special, then you start to make sure that your purpose is really customer focused, and the ambition you have for your customers. And then the key to making that link to strategy is how you sit up and build teams. Because if you actually, and that was what I alluded to earlier, high performing teams don't just happen, they need to be built. And part of building a team is actually understanding what is the purpose of this team? What are we here to do? And what's the big goal that we're trying to achieve? So once an organisation has created that purpose, it's then empowering teams to sit down and say, okay, what's our day to day strategy looking like that we're doing right now? And how does this purpose influence what we do now? And how do we change or potentially change what want to do to, to make that, you know, align better, to where that purposes, and because I think a lot of organisations without that, who had just profit driven, a lot of those teams have no ambition, they are just doing what they need to do. And they've probably been given the financial target to achieve for the year, and they're sitting there with that's the goal to do. And, and, you know, no one gets excited to go to work to do that every day. But if you're going out there to change the game, or deliver something, which is you don't even know how you're going to do it yet. That's where the, you know, passion for life is I mean, we spend so much time working, we should be making sure that people are going jumping out of bed every day to go and do something valuable for society and and, you know, for business and their customers.

Troy Norcross:

I think it's really interesting. Just quick, when Marcus, can we deal with so many of these topics. We've had some really, really great authors and some really, really great books. And one of the things that keeps coming up is, as you just said, people want to be engaged, they want to make a difference. They want to do all of these things we need to lead them. And I say, Yeah, not really. I know at least 70% of the people that simply when it comes that want to collect their paycheck, they want to go home, they want to spend time with their family, they want to go to the gym, and that's all they want to do. They don't want to be revved up, they just want to earn enough to make a decent living. So there is indeed this 20 30% that want to be engaged. I'd love to find a way to bring the other 70% along with most of them, they just want their paycheck. And I'm being debating in what I'm trying to say, because I like the discussion.

Nick Leach:

Yeah, you know what, I, I feel sad for those people rather than have this terrible thing to say, but I think there's the it being purpose driven or inspiring people every day doesn't mean they have to come and work more hours or do anything, it's making sure that when they come to work, it's more exciting. Maybe in the if without it in the absence of it. And they're okay to go, you know what, I'm just happy to collect my paycheck and do what I do, because I've got other interests outside of the work and everything else. But the same point is where I mentioned a few then also had excitement and things going on at work that was challenging you, but also providing you opportunities to grow. And that you might go, you know, what I would really like to be involved in that I can tell you some of the purpose driven teams that I've worked on. Once people have worked on one of those teams, they're on the journey to find it again, that because there's an energy or a magic that's or something that's really innately exciting about working in a team that's really doing something different, or exciting, and there's changing the game. And people once they've done that, they kind of want to find that again, because it's it's it's exciting. And it's it's it's better than just, you know, collecting the paycheck. In fact, I've got a diagram, it's in the book, the difference between a paycheck company and a purpose driven company. And I think if you go down and see this difference on either side, I would challenge you to find where I've, if I've made any mistakes there and then pick which one you want to work for. And I don't matter, I don't believe if you gave it to the 70% of people who you say are happy to collect the paycheck, I guarantee if you ask them which one they want to go with, they'd go with the purpose driven one every day. Because Yeah, because I think they're still pissed off with the same, I've got to get this friggin target this month, and they've still got those, those things that are that drive them nuts. And I think I've seen people who go, I just want to click the paycheck. And what most of them I found is they're disengaged with their jobs, because they've generally tried things in the past, and they've failed to be able to get anything to do. And so now they've just given up and they just, you know, just collect the paycheck, it's it's easiest thing to do, and then just carry on. I think a lot of them are disheartened with where things are at.

Marcus Kirsch:

I think that's really, really, I mean, I love that back and forth, because it's really getting to a point to an example I want to bring in. So we did we did a job at a big telco. And it was exactly that. So we had people who really had change and transformation fatigue there. And I was I was going in there actually with with a bunch of your countrymen there and all call coming across from Australia. And when we first walked into the room, everyone's like, another bunch of you consultants, you know, it's like, Oh, my God. Yeah, we're gonna play ball for a little bit. And you know, in a couple of weeks, we're gonna, we're back to what we did before. And we're like, Alright, go on, so long as you give us long as you give us a bit of time and a bit of attention. That's fine. And if it fails, it fails. But we'll try our best, right? And then really about eight weeks, and we had exactly that. So the penny dropped the new ways of working. So it isn't design thinking, we started to help them ask new questions to the customers and internal customers they were dealing with. And suddenly, the penny dropped and the smiles came in, right, and you suddenly had people way go, I have no idea if this works, stepping through stuff like that three, four times and never quite worked. So they're really just illusion on this suddenly really enjoyed it. And I really enjoyed being closer to the customer talking to them about features and things they want to build and really got engaged. And really since then been a few months later, they were on an internal radio show. And one of them just walked through, walked the radio show through the process they did, and was really honest about the doubts they had in the beginning and what happened over a couple of months later. And it was brilliant. So it's really true. I think it's really good to identify exactly that to say, Oh, look, some people just come for the paycheck paycheck. That is, the likely reason for that is that because it isn't a great place with a purpose in the first place. And a lot of places don't have that. The second you have that. It's a different game. So it's just a symptom. And the second thing I wanted to say because there's more and more evidence now they're not just from people, I think and I quite believe in the potential of people. But so we just few weeks back just had Josh Watson from Deloitte and he was looking at human capital, they had just done a piece of research that came from the leadership level. So leadership at the same time, a bit too. To Troy's argument is often actually unaware how much people actually want to change and engage. When they did research, they found that most leaders think that there's a larger number of people in the organisation who don't want to come along for the journey. They don't want to change they don't want to learn and so on. So whereas the same people in the organisation when you ask, am I actually quite willing to do so. So there seems to be a gap between what leadership often thinks is possible, and what actually the people that actually have, which is just another thing?

Nick Leach:

Yeah, the and I think leaders, it's, it's a nice cop out to say, oh, people don't want to change. So we don't either. So it's there, it's the easiest thing for the leader to say is, they don't want to change. So you know, I can't really do it. And so it's too hard. You know, leave it leave it alone. I think the interesting thing that I and I hear from that example, you gave us that the key to I believe what you did, is you didn't you didn't go in there and tell them what to do. You went in there and help them find the way for themselves. And it's when they find the way for themselves, they find the Enlightenment from from that journey and talking with customers and doing it you didn't come in and consult and tell them what what here's the answer, you came in and said, let's find the answer together and in facilitated out of them, which is exactly what I do with teams as well as you have to facilitate. They have to, for them to own it, they have to be involved in it, they can't, you can't sort of give it to them and say, hey, go do it. They have to sort of have that buy in and involvement in it. So totally agree.

Marcus Kirsch:

So as somewhere in the book, you say, your teams will test you. Can you explain elaborate a little bit on that?

Nick Leach:

Yeah, I think the key is that people don't, it doesn't matter what you do, what you say it matters what you do, right. So your actions speak louder than your words. So and to the point made earlier, you know, if you've got a there'll be when you launch, and this was around the context of launching a purpose to an organisation, as I said, the first thing most of the people in the organisation are going to do is going to go, Okay, well, this is all very nice. Now, tell me what it means. So how does it mean to what I do, and the first thing they do is test you on decision making, right? So they need to understand that you are going to make decisions based on that purpose for now. And so they're going to test or want to see your resolve to do that, if you you can't be a purpose driven culture, if it's, if it's, you know, optional, whether you make decisions based on it, you know, if you've you are now creating a purpose driven culture that is now the way you does make decisions, and that's it, you know, decisions and are made that way from this point in time on and that's the test that the people are going to wait for to make sure that your what you say and what you do with the same thing. Because it's different from what's come before. And they also at that point of launching something like a new purpose. And this is the way we want to go forward. And people don't know how right then and there. So they're sort of they go, Okay, I get it. So there'll be some part of the group, but maybe that 30% are gonna go Jesus, I love this. I can't wait, I'm on board. Where do we go? Where do we go next? And then there's the group is going to go, okay. Okay, yeah. So when time the next time quarterly targets comes up, what's going to happen, then it's just going to go back to the same old, same old. And so the testers, you know, decisions need to be made around that purpose. And that's going to be tested by your teams. And if you don't do it rail, what you ultimately do is, your teams will not trust the leadership because you decide when a when you want to use the purpose and and then it becomes generally a weapon of mass destruction instead of something that really helps the organisation to move forward. So it is really part of the job of a leader is to have some courage around that they have conviction around what they believe is right? And where that maybe in the long short term, there may be a decision which looks in hindsight to be to be counter to what's happened before. You've got to have that courage to go, No, there's there's got to be a better way. And part of the other challenge that I've had to face myself is that if we want to stay true to our purpose, we have to find a different way than the way that everybody else does this because it doesn't work for us anymore. and challenge the organisation and your teams to do that. They'll come back with the answer. And they'll they'll be excited and energised by the fact that you go We won't accept doing the old way because we always sucked. And we've got to find a better way actually enlightens and powers people to go shit, okay, let's go away and work out how we do that. And they'll definitely come up with something that will be far more innovative, exciting, and far better solution. And I've done it before and it we've changed the game with products that were not as good as the weren't the best in the market. And we beat everybody in the market because we looked at the market differently and we challenged ourselves to find Other ways to do things, it is totally the.

Troy Norcross:

So you hit a one word in there, and I'm not gonna make a question out of it, but I want to bring it up because it's important. It's super important. And that's the word trust. So the organisation and the teams have to trust leadership, the leadership have to equally trust the teams. And if you don't have that trust, it's really, really much harder to do the kind of things that you're talking about doing. Kind of as we're wrapping up, as Marcus likes to say, there's always more questions than there is time. But engaging teams, engaging shareholders engaging, engaging customers these days, and really always is about emotions. And we have seen emotions kind of really, really go to the extremes in the last five years. I mean, Bitcoin went from a really interesting little programmatic idea, to a cult following to an out and out religion that's totally emotionally driven. Because if you look at Bitcoin with a critical mind, not a blockchain Enterprise Architect myself, there's no value in Bitcoin at all. And there was no value in leaving the European Union with Brexit. And yet people were energised by this level of emotion. Can you talk about emotion when it comes to your work around purpose in organisations?

Nick Leach:

So emotion, I believe, is critically important. And I think logic is challenging for most organisations, because logic means that you just do the next sort of bit of everything, because you already know the outcome. It's always pre determined, rather than thinking, What if it could be something different, I think the Brexit and Donald Trump and all these things are a vehicle of which is a whole nother podcast around the disenfranchisement of society and the fact that the rich are getting richer, and the poor are getting poorer, and the middle of getting squeezed one way or the other. And their society or the capitalism that's been running right now probably doesn't, necessarily, is a reflection of the emotion that's now created. And I think people and certainly Donald Trump really drove the way he talked, and the way that he spoke, really became drove that and sort of empowered that emotion as well. And so did the guys with Brexit, I mean, the guys that were running around with buses with the moat, you know, get all this money back to the NHS and things like that, which, you know, was considered to be flat, factually wrong. Those things just revolt against the establishment, which I think is relevant. In organisations. Emotion can be used really powerfully when it's positive. And when you're, when you have an ambition for your customer, which is always positive, then that emotion can be put to use and a far more productive and a far more spiritual way for people because negative emotions build not nice emotion for anybody. So it's nicer for us to be in a, in a positive frame of, of emotion. And, you know, I can't remember who said it, but you know, logically to conclusions, emotion leads to action. And that's where I think in business, emotion is a really important and inspire inspiration. And those things are really the pieces that will drive the organisation forward. It won't be logic and all meetings, and more policies and procedures.

Marcus Kirsch:

Yeah, and I think that's, that's a that's a great, great notion to sort of end up on here. So and I'll say, Nick, thank you so much for a great conversation, and your insights and for spending some time with us today. Thank you very much.

Nick Leach:

I thank you guys. It's been a great and thanks for the challenge. It's been a good discussion.

Troy Norcross:

You've been listening to the wicked podcast with CO hosts Marcus Kirsch and me, Troy Norcross,

Marcus Kirsch:

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