The Wicked Podcast

Mary Gregory: Ego

April 27, 2021 [email protected] Episode 43
The Wicked Podcast
Mary Gregory: Ego
Show Notes Transcript

We talk to Mary Gregory about 'Ego' in all its forms and what leaders and individuals can do to adopt the good sides and manage the bad sides.

Author page: https://www.marygregory.com
Book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ego-Get-over-yourself-lead/dp/1781334358

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Music:
'Inspired' by Kevin MacLeod
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Marcus Kirsch:

Welcome to the wicked podcast where we read the business books you don't have time for. I'm Marcus Kirsch. And I'm Troy Norcross. And we are your co hosts for the wicked podcast.

Troy Norcross:

Well, if there's one thing I absolutely know, I have no experience whatsoever talking about it would be about ego. Right, Marcus?

Marcus Kirsch:

Mm hmm. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Let's, let's say that's the thing. I got a lovely ego, Troy.

Troy Norcross:

Oh, you're like my ego. Okay. Well, yeah, we're talking more about how pretty my ego is. Let's talk about who's on the show today.

Marcus Kirsch:

Yeah. So today, we're talking to Mary Gregory and her book ego about leaders and their ego and how to keep your ego a bit in check, and how to be a bit more self aware of what you're doing, what impact you're having when you talk to people and building relationships across an organisation.

Troy Norcross:

Yeah, and how sometimes we have to kind of get out of our own way in order to be really effective leaders. I think it's a really, really interesting thing it was it was a good interview and a good discussion. And as I said, during the interview, there were a couple of points that might even hit a little too close to home for my own personal liking. But my two takeaways from today, were number one, you don't have to change everything overnight. If you can even start making small changes and start doing the right thing more often than not, it's progress. And it will indeed, hopefully spread across the entire organisation. And the other one, she talks about how some organisations act like psychopaths, where you can work for a psychopathic organisation, but you don't have to be a psychopath. You can still be an empathetic leader and build proper organisations. And there isn't either glimmer of hope that organisations are changing. But enough about my takeaways. What about you?

Marcus Kirsch:

Yeah, so I liked the way she responded to answer the question when we talked about losing power. Because one of the themes we picked up a lot, when we talk about self organisation, to organisations, though, you're talking about a massive shift in governance, which I think we really need, because the problems are getting more complex, we need more people who work on the same problem. And leaders and even small groups of leaders will not have enough information brought together in order to really make a decision. So they're becoming less decisions makers, meaning to have to lose power as much as some people might refer to in order to get things done and make quicker decisions. Now, the way she phrased it was actually quite nice, because he said, you're extending power, you're not necessarily losing power. I think that is one way to have a better narrative about it that is less about less describes the fear of losing power, because basically, you're getting things done better, because you're enabling the teams to make decisions. And thinking about it as extending power. I found quite nice and a good way to communicate that. I quite like that.

Troy Norcross:

Great. Well, before we talk any more about our own egos and how much smart we are at our insights, why don't we do something like I don't know, go to the interview?

Marcus Kirsch:

Yes, let's be less smart and go to the interview. Hello, everyone. Today, we have Mary Gregory with us. Hello, Mary, and welcome. And thanks for joining us.

Mary Gregory:

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Marcus Kirsch:

Lovely, as usually we like to start at the top and give a bit of context. So Mary, please tell us who you are and why you wrote the book.

Mary Gregory:

Okay, so I'm Mary Gregory. I'm an executive coach and leadership consultant. I'm also author of the book ego, get over yourself in lead. And I work with senior leaders in big corporations, but I also work with small business owners as well. And a common thread coming through. I mean, I've been working with leaders for many, many years now. And a common thread that has come through my work is that what I started to realise is that there's one thing that gets in our way, and that is ourselves, our ego, which is what caused me to write the book to do that as sort of an inquiry into what is it that gets in our way? And how can we get over ourselves, hence the title of my book.

Troy Norcross:

I'm really glad to say that I have absolutely no ego whatsoever, and it not be any problems at all right, Marcus?

Marcus Kirsch:

Yeah, not at all. Yeah, very selfless and whatnot. Yeah,

Mary Gregory:

okay. Are you a robot

Marcus Kirsch:

Now he's all empathy. Yeah, yeah, no, I, it's

Troy Norcross:

it's interesting. I enjoyed reading the book. I have had a number of problems throughout the years where I've literally I've been in my own way. And I recently had a problem at work, not a problem that I definitely challenge. And you know, looking back on the whole thing, it was absolutely my ego getting in the way. So there was a bit of painful reflection, as I was reading your particular book saying, and they will say the book comes into place when you need it. And I would have to say, I probably needed your book at about that point in time. Well, that's great. Let me head over back to Marcus. And we'll see if we can get on with some of the questions.

Marcus Kirsch:

Okay. Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah. I guess we're gonna talk about some of those moments for sure. Because I got a few lined up. So, so, early in the book, you identify a lot of Corporations Act like psychopaths, I think there's a famous documentary. There's not the firm, is it the corporation that did that? Right? And, yeah, exactly. So based on that, what should leaders do to really acknowledge that if they can actually even acknowledge that and, you know, how do you how do you start with that kind of change? in particular? You know, is there a difference between the individual level and and in a wider section? So so what what how do you start when you start on these? Well, I

Mary Gregory:

think that film was filmed back in 2003. So so it's coming up for us not quite 20 years, 18 years old. However, I think there are situations where it probably absolutely does still apply. And, you know, in terms of understanding psychopathology, and who is attracted to leadership, you know, the whole idea of power and having power over, you could almost say that attracts narcissistic psychopathic type people into those roles. However, I would say that there's a lot that's gone on within organisations to counteract that. And I would also say the majority of people that I've worked with over the years have not been narcissists and not been psychopaths, they've been people who've got a genuine, positive intention around their leadership. And I think this whole, even working in some very big corporates, the whole element was around recognising humility, and that we are all human beings. And I think the thing to get is that the organization's are at the end of the day, large collections of human beings. And by acknowledging and recognising that, that is a good starting point to look at. And then as a leader, recognising that, particularly the more senior you get, the bigger the impact you will have on what becomes normal, about how we go about doing things. So if I'm going to be a leader at the top of a big organisation, and it's really just all about me, and about my success, I'm not really bothered about other people's, I'm going to create a fairly psychopathic organisation. It and I'm simplifying things very, very much here. But if I'm genuinely and authentically motivated by making a difference, and having a positive impact, I will role model the behaviours that support that and encourage a culture that is also supportive of that. So leaders have a huge role to play in the cultures that they create. And whether that their organisation is, in inverted commas, psychopathic or not, I would say.

Troy Norcross:

Yeah, we talk quite a lot about the difference in the evolution of capitalism. Moving from multi stakeholder capitalism to pure shareholder capitalism. Yes, you look at what a lot of shareholders are demanding. They're demanding companies act more like psychopaths. So one of the reasons that I was putting in that particular question was when you've got a market, where shareholders demanding that the company act like a psychopath, yeah. How do you as a leader, kind of work within those constructs and continue to be a non psychopathic, non egocentric, compassionate leader and building compassionate organisation when the market is driving you the other direction?

Mary Gregory:

Well, yeah. And the market, yeah, shareholder demands, but I think shareholder demands are also shifting. So the move towards social corporate social responsibility, and what people are willing to invest in. That has shifted over the years as well. So but having said that, I personally have found I've worked within organisations who are given by their shareholders, and it is frustrating, because it's the short term thinking that is particularly frustrating because they want to return on investment so immediately, and yet return on investment is often a motley Longer term than that, particularly, you're thinking more holistically from the impact on your community, society, the planet, for example, and the people that are working within you within the organisation, too. So it's not for me, that is not an easy question to suddenly say, here's the answer. You know, it is about keeping responding to shareholders demands, but noticing that their demands are shifting as well. And the more that we can become aware, as a society, that, you know, we need to look after the planet, I can tell where my agenda comes from, we need to look after the planet because we're none of us are going to be here in the future. We don't, the more shareholders can make demands. I mean, I do know organisations where shoulders, shareholders have demanded their CEO leave, because a CEO isn't acting with integrity, for example. So shareholders can make a positive difference, as well as not always appearing to make a positive difference.

Troy Norcross:

And I'm glad to see that general shift. And it's a it's a trend that we want to see more of, yes. Were you considered conscious to shareholder but also the employees and the customers and society at large? It taxes and and the environment? Yes. And multi stakeholder capitalism?

Mary Gregory:

Yes.

Troy Norcross:

But moving moving on in our questions, or we're going to talk about this for the rest of the time here. And we don't want to do that. You make a really interesting analogy about training for an athlete versus training for an executive. Yeah. Can you say some more about that? Yes.

Mary Gregory:

So so my, the comparison is about the fact that what both human beings, and but both and both are out to win, you could say in that respect, however, I think the whole relationship with competition for an executive is different to the relationship with competition for an athlete, if you're an athlete who's like a solo athlete, like a tennis player, for example, you're out there to win that game. If you're a team athlete, you can't afford to be just out there to win for yourself, you have to win for the team. And you know, in the in the UK, we have software, we have football or soccer. And if you've got a football player who wants to hog the ball all the time, that is not going to work. Similarly, in an organisation, we need executives, as a leader, you can't do it all on your own, you've got to engage with other people. So that's why I think ego is, you know, being aware of your ego, and how you're impacting other people, how you're managing yourself, and managing your relationships makes such a difference. And underpinning that is how you care for yourself. So for an athlete to be at the top of their game, they have to take care of themselves, they've got to eat the right foods, they've got to get enough sleep, they've got to be doing the right sort of training. I would say for executives, it's similar. They've got to, they've got to make sure that they take care of their well being, that they are building constantly on their awareness and their understanding of their impact and other people and the dynamics that are going on around them. All of that training and development is really, really important. So I see some real similarities. And I see some massive differences as well.

Marcus Kirsch:

So when when you say that, and there's a couple of things, I want to pick up apart from the fact that I think we're going to be talking a lot about winning itself in a few weeks time with Cassie Bishop who is an Olympian. And she talks a lot about winning and leadership in her book. When when we look at something like building relationships, as a leader would likely want to talk about empathy. And there's other themes as well that are similar to that when I say you're not in a but a kind of enabling leadership or servant leadership styles that all go into same direction. By experience, and I've seen this often happening, there seems to be what some people call often sort of the sandwich between senior leadership and the teams and people who work in a company and apart from a couple of, you know, a town square meetings where some questions by a few can be answered. Often there's a big gap, especially in bigger corporations through Hiroki, just because there's 1000s of people, you can have one to one relationship with everyone. I see a lot of leaders suffering. And I also see them through management layer. Sometimes they just don't get actually the knowledge, the information and can build certain relationships to knowing what's going on further down. The hierarchy. Yeah, yes. how, when, when that's the case, to bring in empathy and say I actually want to listen more to people and build these relationships. What do you see in terms of value recognised for leadership and the context you're sitting in in particular? How is that working out? Is that recognised enough? Is it not? Is it a struggle to bring that in as a value Do you or what do you see there when you talk to to to leadership like that?

Mary Gregory:

So I've worked in organisations where I can think of one particular large corporate I worked with where they were apps that their leadership development was second to none, in terms of, it's all about how you relate to others. It's all about making sure you take people with you. And they're leaders that went through their programmes. Absolutely. Got that. And at the end of it, we're going out there saying, Yeah, yeah, this is what it's all about. And there was that disconnect that I think you're describing that when they actually got out there, it the culture, kind of grabbed them back into status quo almost. So it's about what can you put in place within the organisation that is going to enable that positive change. It's not just about giving people the capability. And, you know, people, the leaders that went on these programmes, felt freed by the fact this is what it's all about. But then they got back into the culture and and suddenly, it wasn't what it was all about again. So there's something about what can you put in place in the organisation, and there is something about what measures what measures what's measured gets done? So making sure that within the organisation there are behavioural objectives that link into? How are you leading your people? And, you know, what are the quality of the conversations you're having with your people? How are you supporting your people to grow, and to develop their behaviours, as well as how you're growing and developing your own. And I can think of an organisation I'm working with at the moment who are spending a lot of time they've invested huge amount of time and money in supporting their leaders to be able to performance manage their people from a much more viewpoint of growth and development, rather than it's all about giving you a reward at the end of the year, it's actually supporting that integrated approach where you have daily conversations or as appropriate, around people's development, not just at the end of the year, or the half year review, as it were. And I see that happening, you know, within big corporations today, which is absolutely one way to make sure that gets embedded into the organisation, and leaders are measured against their behaviour on that perspective. Does that answer your question? It's

Troy Norcross:

really important always to have objectives that kind of line up to actual actions. And that's something that we talk about a lot is when the objectives don't line up to the outcomes, you know, things get disconnected. Yes,

Mary Gregory:

yes. There's also something there Troy around. And I'm interested in this around deliberately developmental leadership, which is the work of Robert Keegan. And I think this is this is the way we need to be going really, because what that's about is that the task objectives are equal to the development objectives. And leaders are encouraged to be transparent about the fact that we're all on our learning journey here. And they share their own development and their learning in order to encourage other people in the organisation the whole way through the organisation to do that, and that our development and our growth is just as contributory to the result that we achieve, then our focus is on the task itself. And I think that's a really powerful way to look at it. And a powerful way to address it too.

Marcus Kirsch:

Yeah, I think that's that's a sorry, that's a that's a very, I mean, I love Keegan, I love his maturity levels, and to see yourself and see where you stand towards others and groups and owns a lot. And when you say that, I think the transparency aspect is really interesting, because that has come up as well, a lot when you talk about biases. So you have bias about everything everyone has some and leadership actually recognising that they have their own bias towards, you know, obviously business value and benefits and have less contact with the actual customer, for example. The more you bring that out, it seems to be quite helpful. And maybe my question here is done. So how do you then how do you communicate this out is basically just saying that look, here's my plan of what I will be doing as much as in the organisation instead of instead of mainly focusing, let's say, on the DDD division that a company should have, because because I know one thing about a good good vision statement or when you start talking about these things, as a leader is often that it's relatable. So are you saying it's not just the mission statement itself that should be relatable to where as a worker to fit in here, but also that all leadership isn't just knowing everything and but it's actually on a journey themselves. Is that essentially what you're saying? Or how would you say that? What what aspects? Do you think that then they're learning on this?

Mary Gregory:

Yeah, I think there's something around, we are all on a journey. And and I'm not sure whether we ever arrive and I don't I don't take se to that. I think that's okay. Because we achieve things along the way. And we might achieve some surprising things that we weren't expecting along the way as well. But, you know, this is getting this balance, right? Isn't it between being vulnerable and develop and creating a trusting psychologically safe workplace through you as a leader, being open, transparent, sharing your journey, but also providing the structure and support that's needed to help move things forward? as well, it's getting that balance going Really? I would say.

Troy Norcross:

So kind of moving on, In a similar vein, and going back all at the same time. You talked about integrity, yes. And people kind of abuse the word or misunderstand the word integrity, integrity, so the personal action, integrity versus integrity, and I think he actually made the analogy of integrity with charities, but structural integrity. And, you know, I look at some organisations like McDonald's and Ryanair, and Facebook and, and they're doing some things with lots of extended consequences over which they really don't care, your obesity and you know, data privacy and environmental damage, etc, etc, etc. And yet, the people have to maintain their own sense of personal integrity. And I think that causes potentially a conflict between what the organisation wants to do and what they want to do as people. And it kind of brings in almost the last question. So I'm kind of rolling them together, so we don't run out of time, which is I've got to make choices that go against my integrity to keep my job, or to keep my money or to keep my cash flow. Okay, how do you advise leaders and organisations to deal with conflict of what the organization's doing versus what their own integrity dictates?

Mary Gregory:

Yes. So I'd love to talk to you more about McDonald's because I have worked with McDonald's, and I actually think they're a great certainly here in the UK, the story is amazing in terms of how they've turned things around. To address integrity is

Troy Norcross:

very outdated. I could have very outdated information. So this is not intended to be a slam on McDonald's. But you understand the general?

Mary Gregory:

Well, I do it. Yeah, I do. And although I would want to say good things about McDonald's, because having worked with them, I've seen how they they have a lot of integrity. And in the UK, we had a horsemeat scandal here. And the McDonald's came out, well, they were even mentioned in the press, which is a good sign. Because their actual the way they look after their product, and what they deliver is exceptional, actually, even though people might say it's just a burger down the road, but they they have tonnes of integrity. I would say, as an organisation, they do an awful lot as well, for the community and for training apprentices and things as well as lots of things that they've turned around since all the trouble they had in the 80s. Really. But so so back to your question about how do you keep your integrity when you're in. So you're in a job maybe that you hate, or you're in a job where you're being asked to toe the line on something that you don't necessarily agree with? My response to that is we always have a choice. And tough though that may be we can choose what we do with that. So I can remember times as a leader, I thought, you know, with my team thinking, Do I really have to share this new initiative with them? It's not, you know, and I think at those in those days, I did without really having the awareness that I was going against my values, because I don't think I was in touch to my values in those days. But we do have a choice. And that's tough. And one of the things we have to get is be responsible for our choices. So I might be in a job. And I can think of times I have been in jobs, where I haven't particularly liked the job or the company I'm working for. But I chose to stay there. And it's about being responsible for the fact I'm staying to choosing to stay there. And then also thinking about well what am I getting from this situation? So think about one particular organisation I worked with where I really found it quite a poor, cultural, mich mismatch in terms of who I was, and the organisation. It was a case of what am I learning? That's what I used to ask myself every day, what am I learning from this experience as a way of helping me deal with what I was having to deal with? But in doing so, we are helping ourselves be responsible for it. And then if you know the other, the other side of that is to look for ways Is there alignment? What What part of this Can I align with, so that it does feel like it's it's resonating with your values. And if there isn't anything, then I would be saying, well work something out, work out a strategy for yourself about how you're going to get through this. But make sure part of that strategy is how you're going to get yourself out of it, and make a different choice about where you might work in the future, I would never say to somebody just leave, they've got a mortgage to pay and mouth to feed, you know, just leaving is also not responsible. They've got responsibilities. But we also got responsibility to self here. And it is about what choices can you make? And what strategy might you want to work for yourself, to take yourself forward and create a different future for yourself?

Marcus Kirsch:

Now, what's lovely, and I think I think it's, it's a very complex one and going to another complex one, I'd like to ask you a little bit more about losing power. Yeah. So there was a lot of conversation either in some of the authors, we talked and definitely articles, but also, in terms of redesigning organisations into more progressive organisations, new ways of working, where you talk about governance, which is power of decision making, and so on. There's a lot of redistribution and reconsidering of who does what, and because the leaders don't, if they ever have, you know, known enough to make the right decisions are now often have to move this the power of decision making further online, because it's not scalable, problems are too complex. So it's shifting. losing power can therefore mean two things, I can lose power, and I become less effective as a leader, because targets might not be hit. And I can lose power in a sense, and redistribute that power to let's say, the teams who have better one to one information from the customer and can make way better decision decisions and much quicker than I would ever be able to as a leader. So losing these things is can mean two things. Can you elaborate a little bit of what it means to you? Or what do you see? Or what do you normally propose to?

Mary Gregory:

So I think, I think I probably viewed in a much more, I think I view in a much more personal way than that. Do I feel powerful? In this situation? Or don't I feel powerful? Where? Where might I be giving away my power? by for example, saying yes to somebody when I want to say no, I'm not standing my ground, and my ego might be getting in the way of me standing my ground. But also, when you're talking in the context of organisational change, I think as a leader, you can extend power. So absolutely. Where the change needs to happen might be at the frontline of the organisation, and new as the leader aren't working at that point in the organisation, but you are influencing people who are and that's about how do you extend the power to those people who need to have it to make that change? And so I don't see that as so much losing power. But more that you extend the power to others. And, and also, it's what are you what are you and creating around that in terms of building trust, and building a workplace where people feel okay to be themselves and to be able to speak truth to power? You know, I think that's really important, as well, because there's a lot that goes on an organisation so so much potential gets lost, because people feel don't feel they're able to give feedback on this feedback about what's really happening. And that's where leaders let miss out as well. I think a lot of CEOs I coach, feel lonely, because people don't speak truth to them. Because they they they see the power in their position, rather than recognising that they another human being who needs to know what's happening. So it's what are you setting up within your organisation that supports that dialogue? And, for me, change happens through conversation is the quality of the conversation, the narrative, which affects the change. If we still keep talking about it, I can think of an organisation I worked with, where it was all very blame culture is all about, we'll just keep sticking the finger at somebody else. And actually, a measure of the change was that they stopped doing that. And they started rather than saying, we can't deal with that. It's then that needs to deal with that. They started asking really good questions about how can we deal with that? What's the source of this? What can we create that's different, and immediately in that changing dialogue, you got to see they were taking responsibility and they were making a difference. And that is powerful. I think that's power.

Troy Norcross:

And that really is it's a great example of actual power. And it's an it's an example of real tangible change that gets felt across the organisation.

Mary Gregory:

And that's the key. It's across the organisation. It's not just in one silo. But it's about how can we work across and together and be aligned altogether? Yeah,

Troy Norcross:

I want to come back to one of the things you were talking about speaking truth to power. Yeah. So I worked for an organisation in the not so distant past, only about 45 people relatively small. And we had one individual who was just the most vocal person you could imagine, usually confrontational, usually very aggressive, usually incredibly outspoken. But the CEO of the company was insisting that they were the only one that was speaking out. And they were actually rewarding the bad behaviour. And the rest of the organisation wasn't saying anything but the CEO, because the real truth that really needed to be spoken, nobody was willing to do. And he was like, so you had the evidence of speaking truth to power, but it wasn't the reality of speaking truth to power. And it was that conflict that you could kind of see Bubbling Under the organisation.

Unknown:

Yeah. So

Troy Norcross:

yeah, it was it. I believe in speaking truth to power. I am old enough, and enough grey hair, that I still prefer to speak to the power privately. Yes. And not in large groups. I think in large groups, it really can be very, very destructive, if not done in an empathetic way if I can say so.

Mary Gregory:

Yes, yes. So it's about finding, how can you influence? What's the best way to influence this situation? And certainly, it's interesting that that that was the dynamic of that particular organisation. Because the other thing is that there's always more than one truth as well. So it's interesting that the CEO of that organisation just focused on that one person and didn't seek out or what other perceptions going on here. So,

Unknown:

exactly.

Marcus Kirsch:

So do you then? And probably has to be the last question, because, as usual, we have more questions than time. So, so here's, here's the last one, I'm trying not to ramble on on it. So what what is usually, yeah, well try, you know, learn everyday. What's the usually sort of the first step or what sort of the cycle when you talk to leaders in a way where you can improve? Because I can imagine often, just like, now, you know, I'm talking, I'm listening. I'm at times aware of what I say I'm at times not quite aware of what I say, when I run workshops as well, you know, I tried to work the whole room, I got 20 people in the room, I have only so much attention, I try to spread it across everything, but it's not always perfect. So I'll miss things. How do you how do you help leaders that they can turn this around as quick as possible? What are some of the examples there? How do you do this? To be a bit more specific? This?

Mary Gregory:

Is this in terms of changing behaviour? How would you get to change their behaviour? Yeah. So I mean, for me, in any behaviour change. But this has to work with an individual. It's about helping people be in touch with what is the impact of their behaviour? Because I think often if people aren't aware of that, they don't know, there's no reason for them to change. And it's that it's that almost excruciating moment where you realise God, is that really having? Is me doing that really having that effect? And then, if that's the effect, then what's the effect? What's the knock on effect of that as well. So really getting people in touch with the impact, I think, is the first step to making a change, and they've got to want to do it. It's no point, you know, even you know, as a coach, I wouldn't work with someone who I thought was uncoachable they've got to be willing to want to make that change in the first place and having enough emotional investment in making it. Now, you know, you say, you know, how long might that take? I think sometimes change can be transformational. If someone has a really big aha moment of, oh my god, I never realised that that I was causing that, or me not listening to my team was causing this or whatever. They can change like that. However, I think there's also the whole thing about how we are as humans in that we have developed habits and this is the whole thing with ego is we've Develop survival strategies, which is what I think our ego is, it's our survival strategy. And it's lots of really embedded habits that keep us safe. Because it's how we deal with fear, really. So there is something around helping people be more present to themselves and how they're being in whatever given situation they're wanting to make the change in. And when you're more present, that's when you've got a greater chance of making a different choice to how you might have made in the, in the past, because the whole thing is that we keep replaying habits and behaviours that we've learned in the past. And actually, to make a change in behaviour, we need to be present to what's going on. So we can choose something different, and choose a different response. And for me, success is when a leader chooses it more often than not, because we're all human beings. And, you know, I've written a book about ego doesn't mean I don't have an ego, you know, you see me with my family, they probably love to tell you stories about how my ego starts playing up. It's just, it's just we're humans, it's recognising it. As leaders, we're human beings, so more often than not make a different choice. And that's how you keep creating behavioural change, is to choose to do it differently. So if I'm choosing to listen more to my team, I choose when that my team member comes to me with an issue, I choose to just listen, rather than trying to suddenly go in and fix it for them. completely different approach to how you might treat your people, you might not do that 100% of the time. But if you're doing it more often than not, you will make a difference.

Marcus Kirsch:

Yeah, that's lovely. And I think there's a lot I definitely recognise, and I'm doing a bit of a wrap up here, because there's a time but I think there's a lot of reflective aspects in the book surely for me, and Troy mentioned that at the beginning as well. So it's, it's it's a lovely read, it's it's interesting that everyone will find themselves in this book for sure. As you said, everyone has an ego, it plays up at various points. And, you know, as long as you're more aware of it, you might choose to be able to choose to do something about it. So that's, that's really lovely. So therefore, thank you so much, Mary, for your insights and for your conversation and for giving us your time. And yeah, thank you for that.

Mary Gregory:

Well, thank you my absolute pleasure.

Troy Norcross:

You've been listening to the wicked podcast with CO hosts, Marcus Kirsch and me, Troy Norcross,

Marcus Kirsch:

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