The Wicked Podcast

Dr. Grace Lordan: Think Big

June 01, 2021 [email protected] Episode 48
The Wicked Podcast
Dr. Grace Lordan: Think Big
Show Notes Transcript

We talk to Associate Professor at the LSE Grace Lordan, about how big ideas and behavioural science can help you grow and focus on progress for yourself and at work.

Author page: www.gracelordan.com
Get the book: www.gracelordan.com/thinkbig


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Music:
'Inspired' by Kevin MacLeod
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Marcus Kirsch:

Welcome to the wicked podcast where we read the business books you don't have time for. I'm Marcus Kirsch. And I'm Troy Norcross. And we are your co hosts for the wicked podcast.

Troy Norcross:

Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, by the way, the monster trucks Marcus, we made it to Thursday.

Marcus Kirsch:

I don't have to audio editor at all a little bit down Jesus Christ.

Troy Norcross:

Why am I so excited? Marcus, we did four podcast recordings in four days before amazing authors.

Marcus Kirsch:

Yeah, it was a horror week in terms of amount of work. But it was absolutely everyday had something great, and it was some really good stuff. And all of that will come out pretty close to our 50th episode very soon.

Troy Norcross:

Rob, that's going to be a real real achievement. We're all looking forward to that. We hope you as our listeners are looking forward to that. But Marcus, enough about us blowing our own horn, who's on the show today?

Marcus Kirsch:

Well, today we're talking to Dr. Grace Lord, and who is an assistant professor at the London School of Economics and her book, think big. What we're inside jajuan.

Troy Norcross:

She told some really, really interesting stories. I like the opener story that she kind of had a real wake up call at, I don't think it was LSE. I think it was an earlier part in her career, where she had a mentor advisor that said, Look, it's gonna be five years before you even become anything. And she kind of walked around with a, a cartoon cloud over her head until she woke up and said, I don't have to believe him. Just because he said it doesn't make it true. And I really loved that. The other thing that we talked about today is not necessarily related to think big, but it's all part of our interview was the concept of psychological safety, and how it's being misused as a word. And yet diversity and inclusion of ideas is really, really important. So she was talking about how do you create a team that can openly argue and debate but when the decision is made, everyone pulls together and follows the same colour culture and gets behind execution. So I think that she covers a whole lot, she brings a lot of psychology and without making it too thick, and too having she focuses on individual actions and individual goals. But she comes from a corporate space. So she was a really, really great interviewer. But enough of my rambling, Marcus, what were your takeaways?

Marcus Kirsch:

Yes, so yeah, this was our second book on behavioural psychology, obvious haber with science on if not, we scratch probably similar principles and other books. But this one was quite a focus. And there's a lot and this book is about different biases, and so on, the one I quite took away from it. And that's has a lot to do with me, because I overthink at times on very internal. How much to spend on these internal plantings because as you said, sometimes that creates a bias inside of yourself to the story you're telling yourself, often holds you back from things. And that might also come from the outset because people tell you certain things, and then you start internalising the stories. So it was interesting what you said about balancing that. So it's good to reflect internally. And maybe recognise that not everything people say is actually coming from the right place and true. The other thing is also that you should ask people outside and take that in, and maybe see yourself in a different light, and maybe stop believing certain things you might have thought about that hold you back. So it's a fine balance. But in the book, there's just about 10 different things about that. And it's really great because I think it gives you a lot of different tools to get out of that routine out of that way of thinking that might hold you back. So really loved that kind of internal external buyers balance to get to your big idea and take a step towards it. I really love that one.

Troy Norcross:

Really, really good. Good insights from you good insights from me good author on the show today. But enough of our kind of rambling, Marcus, what should we do?

Marcus Kirsch:

Let's go to that interview. Hello, everyone. Today we're here with grace Lord and hello grace, and welcome to the show. Hi, Marcus. I'm really excited to be here. Lovely. So lovely again, and I will say probably 100 times. So there we go. Go. This was the first time we started to talk, as usual. So please tell our listeners who you are and why you wrote the book.

Grace Lordan:

So I'm Grace lordan. I'm an associate professor in behavioural science from the London School of Economics and director of the inclusion initiative. I wrote think, because I used to give a lot of talks in corporate companies, where I would speak about behavioural biases that employees have, and particularly how it caused gaps between, you know, men and women, and people of different ethnicities and other underrepresented groups. And usually, when I would give these talks, I would talk about the biases, and then what you do about it, and it was all at the firm level. So all from policies, but of course, the audience in those talks tends to be much younger, you might get one or two senior leaders. So very often I would get the question, that's lovely. But what can I do with this advice doesn't really help me, I'm not the CEO. So think big is really about for people who are trying to navigate a career, regardless of what they're doing. They don't necessarily have any power. So it's about kind of taking control over what you can control.

Troy Norcross:

So the word career is is an interesting word for me at where I am in my life. My sister in law said to me about two years ago, where do you want to go with your career? I said, my career is over. I don't have a career anymore. What I have is an income plan. And so I actually like some of your think, big ideas, but I've taken them out of the career context. So do you think that you can take those kind of ideas, and move them out of the career kind of box and use them for for bigger things and bigger initiatives?

Grace Lordan:

So when I wrote it initially, it was written with careers in mind the traditional career, and when I was drawing on examples, a lot of them were about entrepreneurs, people with side hustles thinking of biases in ways for people outside the traditional career path. And actually the book the name change from build the career that you want to build the future you want for exactly that reason. So I know I love the idea of people picking it up who are miserable at work, not quitting their job, and doing a side hustle that allows them to expand. I love somebody picking it up and saying, actually, the traditional career path isn't for me, I'm going to use these tools to create something untraditional that I'm going to actually love. So absolutely, absolutely. And you and my publishers agree with agree on that. But it should be future rather than career.

Marcus Kirsch:

It's great when publishers agree with something. Else, tell us tell us a little bit about one thing you mentioned in your book. And there's lots of things to be mentioned, which is me plus, telephony plus plus.

Grace Lordan:

So me plus is this idea of your future self. So I think one of the big differences between think big and other books that talk about building futures is we talk a lot about the idea that you need to be thinking a decent amount of time in the future, one year, two year, three year five year, rather than doing something that manages you to reinvent yourself within a week. So me plus, then is you visualising what you want your future self to actually be. And I think another difference between my approach and other approaches is that I don't ask people to pick a career label, I don't ask people to pick a lifestyle, I don't ask people to kind of pick an end of the path in the way that you can give it a name. I asked them to reflect on the activities that they enjoy doing on a day to day basis. And then think about what type of jobs will allow you to do more of those activities. And the me plus then is about thinking about, okay, these are the activities I like. So what does me plus look like? What are they doing, if I'm as successful as I can be doing those activities.

Troy Norcross:

And I know it's really terrible to even mention, but I will four hour workweek by Tim Ferriss, and when he's talking about the idea, he's like, okay, when you only have a four hour workweek, what are you going to do in the other time that you used to be at work, and visualising what that end state is, is key to creating an environment where you're kind of open your mind to create that kind of an end environment. So I really liked that you got to pulled on that same thing. And it's another reason I'm saying why. Why do I want to do that? What is my What is my Why? So what do you think? Is that the right way to go about that? Or is there more to it than just the Why?

Grace Lordan:

I think the I think the Why is really important. So connecting to the meaning and you know, and think big if you're some I kind of say if you're somebody who really values money, then that's absolutely okay to be aiming for something that is high income. If you're somebody who really values spending time with your family. It's absolutely okay to be aiming for the four hour workweek or four day workweek four hour workweek would be wonderful, actually. But the but I think the what, what's different about what I say and kind of what Tim says, even though I don't think he would disagree, if we were to have this conversation, is I really want people thinking about what are the tasks that they'll do when they're actually working. So the kind of day to day grind, imagining what those actually look like. So, you know, thinking about you're only going to work four days a week. Fantastic when you are working those four days a week, which is a long time, what are you going to actually be doing so that it is something that you're passionate about, and brings you happiness. And you know, in my job, they haven't given me a retirement kind of deadline. So if I have to be stuck doing things at 80 years of age, I really want to actually, you know, be enjoy them. And I think it's possible now for us to craft work in a way if we're really mindful about what we actually enjoy, to get us to that end goal quicker than we might have actually expected.

Marcus Kirsch:

Yeah, it seems that I think all of us have to eventually aim at a US presidential kind of age of work going way into a 70s, isn't that, but I'm on that on that level in how we go about these things. And for obvious reasons, there's a lot of behavioural science in the book. And we got very excited about that. I mean, my background is more design, thinking service design, but behaviour, slightly closed, sitting very close to that. And really, really great chat with Richard chataway. On one of our first episodes, we had, tell us a little bit about what behavioural science teaches us and maybe how much of a behavioural scientist you need to be in order to apply some of the positions you have in the book for us.

Grace Lordan:

So I think if you come to LSE, one of the first things you learn in a behavioural science classes that we have two different thinking styles. And this comes, you know, directly from Danny Carmen's work, where he says it's not right that we weigh up the cost benefits and risk of every decision, like economists say that we do. But rather, there are some times when we're thinking fast, it's really impulsive, we're on autopilot, we're operating with our unconscious mind. And then there's these other periods of time when we're slow. And we're acting deliberately. So a lot of the biases that people might have heard about what cute names kind of sit in that first kind of part of thinking, where I'm on fat, where I'm working very fast, and I'm on autopilot, I think the interesting thing is, is that if you look at the kind of estimates of how we spend our time switching between these thinking modes, it's 80 to 90%, in that kind of fast, you know, autopilot mode. And if you imagine that you're going through your day, you're going through your workday, whatever that might be. And you're making decisions that ultimately affect your future. Because how we spend our time, which is our most precious resource is ultimately what determines, determines our future. Think Big is really about getting you to notice when those decisions matter. So you switch to system choose to switch to kind of slowing down and thinking deliberately. And how I do that and think big is really to kind of anchor this idea of, you need to identify small steps, because we know as behavioural scientists that these small steps taken regularly, that develop into habits have disproportional effect on large outcomes. And it's really about bringing that into into career focus. And I think Pacific to think big, you don't need to have any behavioural science background in order to read it. So you know, I really introduced the biases in ways where even if you never read another behavioural science book, again, it should be very easy for you to digest. And if it isn't, you absolutely should write a complaint letter because I worked very hard to get it to that level I can tell you.

Troy Norcross:

So we're seeing a lot things like the auto driving or autonomous driving cars. And when you were talking about you're operating in the fast mode operating in the unconscious mind, is there any way that we should be thinking about upgrading our autonomous driving? How can we upgrade our system one thinking? If nothing else, to identify when we need to move? To slow thinking?

Grace Lordan:

I think it's a great question. So I think one of the biggest mistakes that students make when they come into LSE is they assume that the autopilot is is a bad place to be. And it actually isn't, once you're making decisions that you've made many times before. So you've been able to learn by doing so you're very safe in that space. So what you need to then think about is, how can I get actions embedded in my life. So embedded in my routine, that are done with system one, that fast brain and why that's important is because if you really are trying to invoke this kind of deliberate style of thinking all the time, firstly, you're probably going to fail. But even if you're you succeed, it's really, really draining. It's really, really mentally taxing. And there's actually evidence and behavioural science to suggest. And the bias for people who are interested is called ego depletion, that if I really deliberately think about one thing for a concentrated period of time, some other domain in my life is actually going to fall over. So I think the trick is thinking about what do I want to make automatic and it might be for a small period of time, you need to slow down, and you need to really push yourself to kind of do activities that you wouldn't necessarily do before. But making those part of yourself I think, is the key to being successful in the future.

Marcus Kirsch:

What is the sounds quite similar to some of the principles applied to learning some of the insights there, isn't it? Well, you Basically, exercise exercise, but then a lot of learning under heavier work seemingly happens when you step back, look at so whatever just don't ever done the right thing or other things that are not that a bit should have shifted a bit, then go back to doing that, is that sort of a similar similar principle or concept? Yeah.

Grace Lordan:

Yeah, it's a great analogy. And you know, I'm not somebody who journals or, or spends a huge amount of time sitting around kind of self reflecting on the things that I've done. But I do that now routinely, in a week, every single Sunday for exactly the reason that you describe. So you know, you go through your week, and you tried to make kind of really good decisions about how you know, you spend your time. So I'm really happy. I know, on Sunday night, I will label this podcast as a mistake, because I'm enjoying it. But there's probably other things in my week that I've got sucked into that I think I need to make sure that I don't do that. Again, it didn't help me, it didn't help other people. And actually, I think the modern society creates what you know, what has been called busy work by money, people. And that's really what you want to try to avoid. So then kind of coming out, as you say, in the same way that you might do if you're learning and figuring out where you are, so that you reset any mistakes that you're making for the next week is important.

Troy Norcross:

Use one of my least favourite words in that last little model, what's it busy, because so many people Oh, I'm busy, and suddenly has become fashionable to be busy, you know, and suddenly, if you're not busy, then you don't have near as much value. And I think it's a real shame. That call kind of focuses around. Oh, I'm so busy, I'm so busy. Um, well, that just means you don't know how to manage your time, if you're that busy.

Grace Lordan:

I agree. And I talk about the idea of time thinkers in the book, and classifying our time and these three different types of things, the ones that don't give any value to me and to anybody else. The ones that give value to me in the moment, which I'm a sucker for, I have to say, but give me nothing in the future. So you know, kind of eating nice meals, watching Netflix, that kind of stuff, you still want to do it, but not as much. And then what actually helps kind of builds you up and allows you have a good future. But I agree with you, I'm, I mean, I even show my own time audit and think big, and it was quite scary, how much time I wasted just checking emails, you know, bizarre things. And I felt really busy. And I take my feeling about this idea that we're really busy, is that it's a narrative that we kind of tell ourselves to keep ourselves inside our comfort zone in the same way, the narrative, you know, I'm not good enough, or that isn't something that I could do, or they won't accept me, I think I'm too busy really does allow you to actually say no to opportunities that might make you feel quite uncomfortable. So it's handy, but it's not going to help people in the future.

Troy Norcross:

So I've got a two part kind of follow on to that. You were talking about the internal narrative and kind of the the stories that we tell ourselves. And that's kind of the the bias that we have internally, you also talk about bias, that is external, you know, other people's bias and how that impacts us. And he uses cognitive bias. And I like the word cognitive dissonance. And I think a lot of times, I can't hold two ideas in my head that are diametrically opposed. I think when it comes to me trying to set goals, I have to decide which one of these ideas have I made up? And which one of these ideas is true? But what do you think about cognitive dissonance as it relates to goal setting,

Grace Lordan:

when it comes in handy, because I guess by the time you set a goal, you'll be able to convince yourself that you actually set the right goal. So in that sense, having cognitive dissonance, it can actually work for you and allow you to, to sleep at night. But but I think it's I think it's a battle. You know, I think it's a battle in the same way that we you know, we have to constantly battle the tendency for confirmation bias, and just kind of getting the same advice that confirms our beliefs. And, you know, when you kind of think about, you know, the world of work, regardless of what you're doing, one of the best things that you can actually do from yourself is really challenge yourself in actually maybe choosing to shoe for something that's diametrically opposed to what you thought might actually suit you and seeing whether or not that hat actually fits you. Because we have these narratives about ourselves. And until we step out of them, we're never going to get disconfirming evidence. But I think if you're not brave enough to kind of take that on, I think one of the best things that you can actually do is seek out people who really think differently to you. And that's only something that I've really done in the last five years, to be honest, I think up to then, I think if you met my friends, they would look diverse on the outside. But actually, if you saw us having a meal and overheard the conversation, we all agree with each other and propped ourselves up. And there's goodness in that you need some of that in your life. But having people who disagree with you and will really give you different opinions has been you know, is extremely valuable, both for decision makers and large organisations, but I think as individuals, it's the best way not just to move us forward, but to allow us see opportunities that were blind to.

Marcus Kirsch:

And there's something there and so, interesting, maybe interesting thing is that I'm a little bit different to dry which probably why We have this amazing dynamic during our broadcast here. But so I like to run multiple things at the same time. So for me to fix on one thing is a problem, right? Because I always like to look at four or five different things at a time, and I let them sort of flow a bit, and let more information come in, and eventually something will crystallise. Okay, that's true, that is now. And sometimes, then there's not a lot of time left maybe to do so flat. So that then gets me for example, in a very situation where you say, right, how much easier than a balance. So now drilling down a little bit of more into what you just said. So figuring out to make a decision yourself, talking to other people knowing that when people talk to you, there's potential bias that comes with it, or you have a bias internally. How easy is it to say, this is sort of the right balance to strike, when you say maybe a little bit like when you go out and you do user research, and you have, let's say, a good average number of likes, talk to five people and talk to their stories, and you got a really good spread, without getting the same answer. But you're not getting too diverse without being able to see a tendency. If there's something there the same with with the decision making for for, to to plan your path to develop your your me plus.

Grace Lordan:

I mean, I think on people who think differently, if you have three people who are independent, who don't know each other, and they think differently, I think that that's good enough. And I think I think extra is a bonus. So I think, you know, three is a trend. So if you end up getting advice from three independent people that's going in the same direction, then you've probably hit something really, really useful, right? I think you know, the approach that you describe, and how you work, I think it's quite common, actually, that people have kind of a number of things that are actually running along in the same kind of in a direction. And I think if you have good habits embedded in kind of thinking about your future already, that can work really, really well. I think for people who've been stuck for a long time, you know whether or not they've hit unemployment, or they've hit a rush, or they've been plateaued, starting with one thing, and really aiming for that and embedding those small steps, because I don't think it's necessarily even about the goal that you're shooting for. I think it's about the ability to be able to design your your routines, actually, that you have steps that are moving you towards something that's positive in your future. And if you get that down once, I think being able to do a four or five, even 10 times, depending on your personality, can work really, really well. You know, what the top processes that you describe Marcus, I mean, you They helped me in the sense that some of my biggest breakthroughs have been when I've had an, you know, if I'm sleeping, I go to sleep thinking about a problem. And then I wake up and I'll actually have some ideas about how to solve it. Rarely, I sit down at my desk, and I have a brainwave, I'm sitting down at my desk, and I'm doing those routine tasks, you know, writing up ideas that I've had already. And you know, you might call that creativity. But it isn't actually where my creative moments have come from, down to the kind of boring administrative tasks we'd all love to give away.

Troy Norcross:

We had an interview with an author about six books ago. And they said, true diversity is absolutely a diversity of opinions, and not just diversity of kind of, whether it's ethnicity, or whether it's sexuality, or whatever it is. And a lot of big companies don't understand that level of diversity that they will hire someone that thinks fundamentally differently. Because we try to balance that with maintaining consistency of a company culture, which needs some level of kind of symbiosis. And so it's getting that balance, right.

Grace Lordan:

I think it's problematic in the sense as well, that if you're, if you're kind of a leader of a meeting, or a leader of an organisation, you want people to always back your opinions, so kind of moving to them a style where you're embracing dissent for the brainstorming phase, but the team is well connected enough to actually back you, once you dismiss, once you make the decision whether or not they agree, I think is a is a skill that too few of our leaders actually have, because you need both. You need the culture that you describe where everyone's coming together. But I think to innovate, and this is where we're kind of falling over. I think in a in a lot of industries. to innovate, we do need to be arguing with each other and be comfortable. And this word, you know, which is starting to drive me crazy psychological safety because everyone loves it. But no one knows how to kind of define a properly or even how that we actually get there. But if that that concept that will be familiar to your listeners is where you want to be. So if I have an argument with you now, I know actually later we'll go for it, you know, we go for dinner, we won't be worried about it, that there's no there's no trick to my job and creating that culture is is really, really hard.

Marcus Kirsch:

Yeah, and that, that reminds me of a lot of the work I do. And it's interesting that you know, when you have a design background, these things are actually pretty normal. You really have you just throw 100 ideas out all the time and you just poke them and do that. And that sort of for designers is quite common. It's been common for decades. I think for a lot of other practices and other people in organisation to sort of interesting people organisations. One, as you said, they want to become like that a little bit more. But often, governance and other structural elements prevent that. But generally, there's there's just now that we're already here. There is a parallel between development and me plus and applying that to individuals and organisations, if not teams. Can you see some obvious parallels there that work with that? Where you could scale this up? or apply it in the same way? Or do you think do you think just, you could just apply it to a whole team, and they would all go through the same thing? And that would work? So is that something you had in mind when you wrote the book? Or you generally just see that?

Grace Lordan:

Yes, I mean, it's another thinking. But it wasn't what I had in mind when I wrote the book, because I was really trying to go the other way around to move from thinking about firm policies to the individual. And since I launched the book, I've done a lot of talks in companies. And, you know, people have kind of pointed out that, you know, some of the tools are really good actually, for them, to give to their team members. And one other, which I think is a really good example, I speak a lot about feedback in the book and the ability, not just to be able to actively listen and take feedback, but ask for the feedback that you need. And in most corporate companies, we teach people how to give feedback. So you know, I've thought about how to give feedback to my team members. No one's ever talked to me about how do I actually go and ask for the feedback that I actually need in my career. And if you think about it, if they taught me how to ask for the feedback that I need to nudge the manager into kind of the area that I really need to develop, we might be in a better place, because it's a big ask to ask managers who are managing 1020 5060 people to individualise and personalise all their feedback. So giving that autonomy, I think back to the individual allows for the creation of better teams. In my own work at the moment, one thing that I'm really interested in for culture, and maybe actually, both of you will have kind of some thoughts on this is the idea of tipping. So you know, usually in organisations, they talk a lot about top down. So it needs to be told at the top of trickles down, which I think works under kind of a standard standing ovation model and behavioural science. But of course, a lot of times when ideas take on it's true tipping. So the idea that we could teach people who are in the mid level of the organisation who are normally actually kind of ignored when it comes to kind of leadership training, how to guide their teams to be inclusive, to embrace dissent. And to get to kind of that nice, the new status quo that we spoke about earlier, where we're arguing in the brainstorming session, and agreeing when it's the go forward moment, and whether you'd create tipping of a culture to an organisation, if you've got enough mid level managers involved, because I guess if I'm a mid level manager, and I look at your team, and it's performing really, really well, because you're embracing dissent, then I'm going to a job, the strategy that you're that you're doing. And I think think big directly speaks to that, for these managers who have small teams can get to know the people, it can help them get the best, the best out at that level, for sure.

Troy Norcross:

And we talked about managing up. That's a really good example of if you're in the middle of doing it right, and then setting by example, how things can be done. And we had David marquet, on which we really, really enjoyed having David on the show. And he was talking about about he was a nuclear submarine captain. And he inverted the command and control kind of authoritarian naval mandate for management and pushed all the decisions down to the people who actually had the data and had the the ability to make the right decisions. And it really revolutionised a lot of the way things operate. And it's it's been an excellent been an excellent, but sadly, we're in one of those crazy situations like we always find ourselves where we've got more questions than we have time. So we're going to do one last question. And it's a personal story from for me, I have been wanting to start an online store for probably more than 10 years. And I've done the entire thinking about it. I know what the revenue numbers need to be. And I've kind of mapped everything out. And there are tonnes and tonnes of these kind of marketing projects that are out there that can do this. But it's all about finding the exact right product. And that's the part that always seems to be the essence of if you don't get that right, nothing else will work right. And you talk about the very beginning of your book, but setting goals and if you're 40 and you want to be a professional rugby player, it's probably not a realistic goal. You know, and a few other examples. I won't reveal them all because we want our listeners to read your book. But how do you get yourself grounded in reality and still thinking big

Grace Lordan:

I think that's the key, again comes back to the small steps. So I think it needs to be when you when you think big, the second part, they they put the think big and big font, which is really important because it probably helps sell books, which is a really cool cover. But when you think big, identifying the small steps that allow you get to that goal is really, really important. And of course, if you're 40, and you want to be a professional rugby player, your fastest go are that there are small steps that are actually getting get there. Lucky for you with the online store, you probably will get there, right. So it's a matter of identifying the product. And the only thing that I would say, which you've probably might have thought about already is don't also kind of dismiss the role of narrative. And this because I think so many entrepreneurs have fantastic products, right? But we never actually get to see them. Because the storytelling around the product isn't isn't necessarily isn't necessarily there. And the reverse of it. There's lots of crappy products or sell an awful lot because they have this really kind of cool story around it. But it's about identifying the small steps and really being ambitious. And I think the other part of it is kind of maybe there's some people who've plateaued for a number of years, and they have this big goal that feels very far out of reach. But maybe you can get small steps, and it just will take a bit longer. It might take you five years. But you know, so what I think we can do huge changes in our lives in five years. And by the way, I've committed on another podcast that I did to start a business a 45. So I think I have five years now to actually think about the product. They are puzzling over at the moment. But identifying those small steps is really worth the torch. Actually, that construction phase is very important. Great. Well,

Troy Norcross:

it's been a real joy having you on the show today. We enjoyed reading your book. We wish you great success. Have you got any other books coming up? Or not yet?

Grace Lordan:

Not yet. I mean, I have to say it was I really enjoyed writing the book, but then the editing was quite torture, so it's gonna take me a while to actually forget about

Marcus Kirsch:

it.

Grace Lordan:

It actually goes back into the back of my mind to two to three years, I think for the next one. But for me, it's been an absolute pleasure. Marcus and Troy have really enjoyed being here today. And I really appreciate it.

Troy Norcross:

Well, Mark is of course wrote the book. So Marcus, I'll let you have the closing remarks.

Marcus Kirsch:

Yeah, this was a nice talk with very big and big insight. And we thank you all for that. So thank you again for your time, Grace. Thanks so much. Awesome.

Troy Norcross:

You've been listening to the wicked podcast with co host Marcus Kirsch and me Troy Norcross,

Marcus Kirsch:

please subscribe on podomatic, iTunes or Spotify. You can find all relevant links in the show notes. Please tell us your thoughts in the comment section and let us know about any books for future episodes.

Troy Norcross:

You can also get in touch with us directly on Twitter on at wicked and beyond or at Troy underscore Norcross, also learn more about the wicked company book and the wicked company project at wicked company.com