Episode 17 - Personality Types & Communication

In this episode, Scott Lynch (Managing Director of Community Therapy) speaks with Shirley Dalton (Professional Speaker, Leadership Coach and
Creator of the Blueprint for Business Freedom).

Together they discuss the value of developing an understanding of personality and communication to improve professional relationships. They explore personality types, communication styles, active listening, feedback, and provide practical tips for enhancing communication in various settings.

There is so much actionable information in this episode. We hope get some value from it!

Takeaways

• Great communication starts with active listening.
• Understanding your own personality type can help you adapt your communication to meet the needs of others.
• Understanding oneself and setting good intentions are important for providing the best experience and treatment in the healthcare setting.

Timestamps
0:00 - Introduction
2:25 - Understanding Personality and Communication
8:35 - The REACH Personality Framework
11:07 - Demonstration of Profiling and Quadrants with Scott
21:51 - Adapting Communication in Different Settings
31:46 - Vulnerability and Feedback
40:43 - Identifying Exceptional Communicators
45:35 - How Fulfilment and Quality Communication Are Linked
49:01 - Learning Opportunities with Shirley

Resources
Complementary 1 Hour ‘Aha’ Session
Shirley's Website
Shirley's LinkedIn

Community Therapy Website
Community Therapy YouTube
Community Therapy Facebook
Community Therapy LinkedIn
Scott's LinkedIn

Transcript

Scott Lynch (00:01.832)
Welcome to the Community Therapy Podcast where we talk all things community healthcare. I'm your host, Scott Lynch. And today we are talking about how your personality affects, how well you communicate. As we all know, communication skills are key to ensuring exceptional clinical experiences and also for driving great workplace culture. To talk about this more, I have with me today, Shirley Dalton, who is a professional speaker.

leadership coach and creator of the Blueprint for Business Freedom. Shirley's life changed when she asked her former employer for part-time work while she set up her new business and within three weeks she found herself in business with no plan, no capital and in her words no idea. Since then she has conducted over 10 000 one-on-one business and life coaching sessions.

written and published the loyal Lieutenant, how the second in command brings the CEO's vision to life, and written and published a weekly thought every week for her audience for the past 13 and a half years without missing one single week. Shirley's mission is to inspire, educate, and support you to be, do, have, and feel what you want, which sounds very good to me.

Shirley works with business owners, leaders and managers and those aspiring to grow and develop by teaching them how to lead themselves and lead others to create the business, career and life they want. Welcome Shirley.

Shirley Dalton (01:40.386)
Thanks, Scott. Yeah, that brought back memories, as you were saying that then.

Scott Lynch (01:45.79)
I bet it does. It's always when there's an introduction, sort of have a little reflection session while somebody's sort of talking away. So tell me a little bit about what personality means. It's a huge topic and many books and podcasts are written every year on these things, but what's personality and how does it impact communication?

Shirley Dalton (02:07.894)
Yeah, that's a great question, Scott. And I was working with a client just recently and I was helping him do some recruitment of all things. And I said, I can do a personality profile for you. And he went scoffed in here. I don't believe in that. Oh, okay. I thought to myself at your detriment. At its basic, personality is just a habit. It's a habit of how we do things, how we communicate, how we behave.

And if you think about like of a morning when you get up and you brush your teeth, you have a habit. That's the way that you do it. Well, personality is the same thing. Now we can change our personalities and personalities do change if you want them to, but generally they don't because it's just the habit. And you know, you've got a couple of kids there, you would notice that they've all got different personalities. And what we find is that personalities seem to start from the get go.

Scott Lynch (03:03.904)
So is it that, and I guess, you know, I'm a physiotherapist by background and always start to think about things clinically and is it that this is part genetic part, you know, around your environment and bringing up children makes me think of our kitties and our three kitties and fundamentally they have the same environment with myself and my wife and what we do day to day.

they're together all the time, because we're actually homeschooling too. So there's sort of a very consistent environment for all three children, but they're very different as well. So surely there's some genetic component as well.

Shirley Dalton (03:45.246)
Yes, yeah, and we do find that, that we find right from the get-go, there'll be one of your kids that'll like to have everything neat and tidy, there'll be another one who's messy, one who's creative, you know, and that's the thing about personality is we actually need them all. So when you think about the workplace and you talked about culture earlier, we actually need all personalities and the one that we'll talk about today is the reach personality and I'll explain later why I...

prefer that because there's hundreds of personality profiles that you can do. But we need them all because they compliment each other. If we only have the one type of personality in an organisation, then we only get that flavour. And that works for the people that are like that, but it doesn't work for all of the people that you interact with. It doesn't work for the clients, particularly. I'll give you an example.

I work with a lot of real estate agents. And so if you imagine that you're wanting to sell your house and so they come and they meet you in the house. Well, it's really important for them. And this would be very similar for all of your team and your listeners because they're going out and they're meeting clients and in some cases in their own homes. When you understand the different personalities, then you can adapt to that really quickly. And it doesn't mean that you have to become that.

And I'll give you an analogy that I like to use. It's imagine that you're going overseas to travel. And it doesn't even matter if it's going to an English speaking country. So say like, if you were going to America, then you'd expect that you'd learn a little bit about the culture before you went and make sure that you've got all your $1 and $5 so that you can tip, tip. Not something that we necessarily do here.

Scott Lynch (05:34.454)
Hehehe

Shirley Dalton (05:36.906)
So you would learn a little bit and imagine that you were going to Japan or France or to Germany, then you're more comfortable being an Aussie and you know the Aussie culture. But if you're going overseas, you learn a little bit of the language and you learn a little bit of the culture. And you know, why do you think we do that, Scott?

Scott Lynch (05:59.364)
I think it's a great analogy. Like we had a little catch up just before the episode and you said this analogy and it really hit home for me of like, I've done a lot of work in my leadership journey and just my professional skills journey so far of being able to identify the type of person personality in front of me and using your words, how I can adapt to listen and meet their needs.

whilst not, you know, I guess, letting go of my needs and organisational needs at the same time, but it's allowed me to, you know, be in their presence and meet their needs fundamentally.

Shirley Dalton (06:41.91)
Yeah, exactly. And the reason that we do that is so that we can communicate better and we can have a better relationship. And it doesn't mean that we have to become Japanese, French, German, et cetera. We'll always be Aussie, but it means that we can get on a lot better. And it means that you can understand your teammates, you can understand the people that you report to, the bosses can understand the people that they work with.

and your clients, like it's a win-win. And when this client said to me, I don't put too much on personality, I thought, oh, wow. Yes, we do, yes.

Scott Lynch (07:20.014)
We have a journey ahead of us. Yeah, I can relate to that in my younger years as a professional as well. And I love how these skills help the personal side as well. And that's not like they're separated. Yes, you wear different hats in life, personal and professional, but I've found that.

as I've really improved my professional skills, it really has carried over into my personal life as well. So with personality, how does that really impact communication and why is it so important to know like your own personality type? We have to start with ourself first to then start to understand others and bridge that gap of communication, different needs, different preferences, different...

views on the world etc.

Shirley Dalton (08:12.894)
Yes, well, let's I'll explain a little bit about the reach personality profiling and why I like it. And then I'll ask you a couple of questions and we'll have a guess at what yeah, what type of personality yours is. And then we can look at that how, how that means that you show up for other people. So the reach personality profile was developed by Professor Doug Waldo in the States.

Scott Lynch (08:22.472)
I'll be the guinea pig. Right.

Shirley Dalton (08:38.538)
and they've got a timeline where they looked at all of the personality profiling and all of the psychology over the years. And what I like about the Reach is that it gives you a pinpoint of where your personality is, but there's another 10 dimensions within that. So, you know, people would say, oh, I'm not exactly this particular type or another, and that's fine. We're all a bit of a combination, but you can see where those little bits stand out.

Scott Lynch (08:59.314)
Mm-hmm.

Shirley Dalton (09:07.318)
And then they also have what they call the REACH, which the REACH stands for RE is your relational motivation, and the ACH is your achievement motivation. And we'll plot those on a little graph. And they have like a circle that comes around, and that circle shows you the degree to which you can easily adapt to the other personalities. And whilst we won't necessarily want to change your personality,

what you can do is you can actually grow your reach so that you can quickly identify another personality and adapt to them so that you're giving them what they want and then therefore getting what you want because you're having a better relationship and better communication.

Scott Lynch (09:54.292)
Yeah, I can see why you like the framework. I'm excited for you to guinea pig me in a moment because I haven't been through this one. Certainly had, you know, other components and I think I do fall other frameworks and I think I do fall into past habits of like you've said to the other person you were coaching of.

Shirley Dalton (10:00.332)
Ha ha.

Scott Lynch (10:16.932)
always going like, oh, I haven't always seen the value and that I definitely do now in the later years of my professional development. And this year for me, 2023 at the time of recording has very much been about communication skills this year in and around feedback, giving feedback, receiving feedback, and it's had a lot to do with, you know, understanding others. So very excited. So roll away with guinea pigging me.

Shirley Dalton (10:45.911)
Okay, well there are a few more questions within the Reach profile to actually more accurately pinpoint it, but we can get a fair idea by asking just two questions. So first question, when it comes to your day-to-day operations, would you rather focus on people or tasks?

Scott Lynch (11:06.048)
people.

Shirley Dalton (11:07.294)
Okay, and when it comes to achieving your goals, do you like to have a plan, think about it, to be organized about it, and really know what you're doing and how you're going to do it, or do you just go with your gut and get into action and away you go?

Scott Lynch (11:28.344)
I lean more towards gut, because I know I've got a lot of wonderful people around me that are better in other areas. But I think even looking back in the past, I would say that it's always been gut. I tend to just get in, identify something. And I think this year for me, there's been a lot of personal growth and professional growth. And I've started to understand that I definitely...

Shirley Dalton (11:36.278)
Hahaha

Scott Lynch (11:54.24)
feel things and I'd say instead of gut it feels more in the chest for me for some reason but I get a sense of things sort of across my chest so that's my gut feeling it's like a chest feeling.

Shirley Dalton (12:06.002)
Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. All right. So that would say to me that you make a lot of your decisions based on your intuition. Yeah. And that's great. And remember, I said we need everybody in the workplace and also in the home as well. You know, if we can have different personalities, yeah, it can be challenging at times. However, we get a bit of result. So when I ask, would you rather focus on people or tasks?

Scott Lynch (12:13.844)
Yes, yep, I can align with that, yep.

Scott Lynch (12:27.072)
Hmm.

Shirley Dalton (12:33.778)
If you imagine that we've got a square in front of us, and we're going to rule a horizontal line across that, and at the top we're writing the word people, and at the bottom we're writing the word tasks. So the fact that you said you'd rather focus on people puts you in the top, top half of the square. Then we're going to divide the square vertically, so we've got a left and a right. So now we've actually got four,

quadrants and on the left are those people who like to think about things and do their research and be planned and organised and methodical and on the right hand side are the people who like to just get into action, go with their gut and go for it. So when we now look at this we've got four quadrants. If you're people oriented, so you're up the top and you're action oriented.

then that places you in yes that's it. Perfect. That places you in what we call the coach quadrant.

Scott Lynch (13:33.428)
Hehehehehehe

Shirley Dalton (13:42.194)
If you were task oriented and action oriented, below that would be the driver.

Next to the driver on the left is somebody who's very task focused and likes to think about things and do their research and we call them the advisors. And people who are still really keen and interested in people but they like to have their spreadsheets and be planned and follow their systems and their processes, we call them counsellors. Now if you have a look at that quadrant

You'll see that the coach and the driver, that's it. Love it, love it. The coach and the driver have action and going with their gut in common. And the counsellor and the advisor have thinking and planning in common. And then on the top, the counsellor and the coach have people focus in common. And the driver and the advisor have tasks in common.

Scott Lynch (14:23.784)
Hehehehehehe

Shirley Dalton (14:47.69)
And when you look diagonally opposite, the counsellor has nothing in common with the driver and the advisor has nothing in common with the coach. So when it comes to communicating, coaches think as they're talking. So a coach likes to talk, talk. Yeah, me too. I happen to sit in that quadrant as well.

Scott Lynch (14:52.876)
Hehehehehehe

Scott Lynch (15:08.456)
can align with that. Right.

Shirley Dalton (15:16.578)
Whereas when we work with an advisor, an advisor is almost like, oh, stop, stop already. And they wanna go off and they wanna research it. Now, that's frustrating for both of us. And yet we get a better result because the, sorry to say this, the coach just goes, wow, that's a great idea, let's go with that. And they need the advisor to sit there and go, hang on a minute, what about this? How are we going to do that?

Scott Lynch (15:25.396)
Hmm

Scott Lynch (15:37.661)
Definitely.

Shirley Dalton (15:45.374)
And so we each have key words. The advisor says how. They absolutely have to know how something's going to work before they'll get into action. And the coach's key word is why. And the coaches like to inspire. Now here's where our communication comes in. The coach wants to get people emotional and it's quite informal and they really selligate rather than delegate. But that doesn't work for an advisor. They're quite formal.

Scott Lynch (15:57.126)
Mmm.

Scott Lynch (16:10.612)
Hehehehe

Mm-mm.

Shirley Dalton (16:15.234)
And they don't like all of that emotional stuff. They want the facts, they want the figures, they wanna do the research, they wanna know how. So they're our risk mitigators. They help us from making silly mistakes or stupid, quick, off-the-cuff decisions. However, they can be frustrating for a coach because we just wanna get into action and go. And sometimes it feels like they're pulling the parachute out.

Scott Lynch (16:19.229)
Yes.

Scott Lynch (16:40.444)
I can align with, yeah, I can feel so much of that of what you just said. And I've definitely been working on, I always refer to a lot of things in my life or professional life as double edged swords. For some reason, I've always liked that analogy. So yeah, I've always, I've started to, I guess, just acknowledge that double edged sword of some of those components for me and really have...

Shirley Dalton (16:45.817)
Ha ha ha!

Scott Lynch (17:10.228)
valued more and I think shown my appreciation of that value to others in different quadrants depending on the framework but here I can think of so many great people in my life that would fit the advisor sort of avatar and person and they just make my professional life in particular so much better and we get to sometimes it may take

longer in the short term to roll something out, but it is always, compared to the way I would do it myself, far more sustainable in the long term. We tend to get more systems and processes in place and it's much more of a slow is smooth, smooth is fast approach if we rolling that out and not just causing chaos with a million different ideas and projects at once, because I've certainly done those things in the past.

Shirley Dalton (17:47.174)
Yeah.

Shirley Dalton (18:07.454)
Yes, and like that just drives people that aren't that personality insane, you know, because we're just we're on to this, we're on to this. And the coaches aren't as bad as the drivers for that. The drivers are even worse because their key word is what and they're all about the achievement and the results to get. So I'll give you another example. And I should have actually put my hats on here for us today. Normally I put a captain's hat on for the driver.

Scott Lynch (18:32.948)
Hehehehe

Shirley Dalton (18:37.114)
And the captain says, we're going to Tahiti and I wanna get there on Thursday. And the advisor goes, oh, hang on, I haven't got the maps, I haven't done the research. Yes, how are we going to do this? And the coach comes along and blows the whistle and says, come on everybody, we're going to Tahiti. This is going to be fabulous, blows the whistle, woo, yeah. And then the counselor comes along and goes, oh.

Scott Lynch (18:47.372)
What's the itinerary?

Scott Lynch (18:58.205)
And this is why.

Shirley Dalton (19:04.086)
I don't know, have we got enough sunscreen? Have we got enough food? I don't know that somebody else is going to like that. You know, they like the cold climate and the driver says, I don't care. We're going to Tahiti and we're going there on Thursday.

Scott Lynch (19:10.124)
Hehehe

Scott Lynch (19:19.024)
It's a great analogy. What's the word that a counsellor usually uses? Who?

Shirley Dalton (19:24.514)
Who? Who, who, who? Ha ha ha.

Scott Lynch (19:30.968)
Oh, that reminds me of a very terrible dad joke I told the other day to my wife. I said, but you know that one of my friends is an owl. And she said, who? It didn't go down very well. I think you've done a really good job of, it's always hard over a podcast and why I'm trying to like draw little images here of

Shirley Dalton (19:44.194)
Yeah, that's a terrible dad joke.

Scott Lynch (19:56.832)
trying to get across to listeners, but hopefully, I think you did a really good job of visualizing that for somebody if they're driving or walking or doing exercise as we do listening to things like this. It really gives those main personality types, what differentiates them. What's an easy way for people to, I don't think a lot of people in professional life have went through personality.

Shirley Dalton (20:11.543)
Yeah.

Scott Lynch (20:26.348)
tests and components and really went on that journey. It feels like a lot of that a lot of that support is available at like an executive leadership level or often business leaders or owners find themselves there whether it's their networking at different events and they find themselves interacting with somebody amazing like you.

Or they find themselves with just significant hurdles and problems to overcome and they know that they need help. But what about for everyone else that just hasn't found that need yet? What's an easy way for them to start to develop some of this knowledge? How do I know that person that I've seen today out in the community? It might be an older adult, a person living with a disability. It could be someone on the phone, a family member.

business colleague that you're talking to, how can you quickly start to identify who that sort of person is and how you might adapt to them?

Shirley Dalton (21:30.522)
Okay, well, the coaches and the counsellors will make you feel welcome. So when you arrive at their place, they'll welcome you in, they'll offer you a cup of tea, you might not feel like it and then and they'll spend 15 to 20 minutes talking, chatting. And if you're a driver or an advisor personality, you're like, Oh, God, let's get to the tasks. So, so the drivers

Scott Lynch (21:44.541)
Hehehe

Scott Lynch (21:55.161)
Hahaha.

Scott Lynch (21:59.436)
I think a lot of people would relate to that for home visits in particular. So if you find yourself in that situation of somebody, because to make it quite human and real, people that we're supporting at community therapy, but a lot of our listeners will be supporting quite vulnerable and socially isolated human beings. So you walk into that person's house, you may be the only person seeing them for a period of time.

Shirley Dalton (22:04.848)
Mm-hmm.

Scott Lynch (22:28.34)
that if that person is a people person, they do wanna talk to you. And what's on your list, maybe clinically as a healthcare professional, your tasks aren't necessarily the highest components for them, but you still have a job to do as well. That is really important. So how do you meet that need, but also start to move the conversation where you need it to be?

Shirley Dalton (22:53.13)
Yes, so what you learn to do there Scott is you learn to do a task while you're being social. So my mother used to go to her friend's place every afternoon, can you believe it, and they would peel their vegetables together and then they'd go and boil the heck out of them when they got home. And so they would have their social natter, natter and at the same time they were achieving a task. So they don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Scott Lynch (23:00.16)
Hmm

Scott Lynch (23:12.613)
I like that.

Shirley Dalton (23:22.038)
So you can be having your cup of tea and asking your questions and talking about the dog, talking about the grandma, looking at the photos on the wall. You can be interacting and still maintaining, you know, your focus on the task. Whereas to cut somebody off and to wrap them up and say, okay, thanks now, let's get onto this, you actually can damage the relationship.

Scott Lynch (23:44.052)
Hehehe

Scott Lynch (23:47.852)
I love that. What comes to mind there for me that I think people working in community health care, especially aged care, will align with is the Department of Health and Aging for a long time have talked about a reablement and restorative care approach. And what they've meant by that in practical terms is a doing with approach rather than a doing for approach. So that brings front of mind for me of like when you're saying like peeling.

things or doing domestic tasks, et cetera, you're able to continue that conversation while you're doing something with that person. And it also brings to mind to me that as healthcare professionals, we often think about the clinical tools or assessments or physical interventions that we do as a real part of, I guess, our tool belt. But I think what is often

um, undervalued, especially at an undergraduate component. And we typically pick these things up in the workplace through ongoing CPD, like continuing professional development is communication and key phrases that you have in your tool belt of going, okay, when I'm in this situation, this is something that I can say that usually works and helps me redirect this conversation. So, you know, there's some key

phrases that people can develop of if you're in that situation and you've got maybe Beryl in front of you, 88 years old, high falls risk, you really want to do a falls assessment with her but she's telling you everything that just happened at Christmas with all of her family and everything's going on. You need to have some phrases that you feel comfortable with of how you start to

continue talking about that, but move it into a false assessment that you need to get done in the next 45 minutes.

Shirley Dalton (25:43.242)
So can you give me an example of one of the questions that you would need as an assessment? And I'll see if I can bridge that gap.

Scott Lynch (25:51.4)
Um, okay, let's say I wanted to ask Beryl a really simple one could be, have you had any falls in the last 12 months?

Shirley Dalton (26:01.534)
Okay, and so while Beryl's talking about her kids and her Christmas and that, then we can say, you know, that's fantastic. I love that you're so able to play with your kids and your grandkids. You know, do you find that you can chase them around and you're still able to stay on your feet, you know, not worried about falling over as you're playing with the kids.

Scott Lynch (26:24.912)
I love that. And then she answers and says, Oh, actually, I've noticed over the last couple of years, I can't get down to on the ground as easy. And then as a clinician, especially a physio myself, that's why I brought up falls because it's one of my passion areas, I can start to talk around why that is important and how it is predictive of certain things and we can progress hopefully blend that conversation now more into the falls component.

There's definitely lots of people that I'm not as clinical as I used to be. And that's certainly a big challenge for me because I love being a clinician, but there's a lot of people that I've been privileged to support in the past that very much challenged my communication skills because I feel like I did a really good job of moving the conversation somewhere.

Shirley Dalton (27:13.162)
Hahaha!

Scott Lynch (27:20.796)
and then they just keep coming back and they do a really good job of bringing it back to where they would like it to be, which is very social and nothing to do with why I'm there.

Shirley Dalton (27:31.178)
Yes, and that really brings in another communication skill that we teach a lot in our different leadership and loyal lieutenant classes and that's the skill of active listening. And active listening in particular means that you demonstrate that you heard and understood what they said. It doesn't mean that you necessarily agree with it. But when you do that, they don't have to repeat themselves over and over thinking that you haven't got it. So

Scott Lynch (27:34.464)
Hehehe

Scott Lynch (27:43.208)
Hmm.

Shirley Dalton (27:59.722)
So when we're talking to Beryl and we say, oh wow, so you really enjoyed that with the kids? Yeah, yeah, I did, great. But if you say, okay, so what happens here? She doesn't feel like you've heard it, so she'll repeat it again and again. So that's a really, yeah. And sometimes all you really need to do is to repeat the last couple of words, even the last three words. And what we do in Australia, which a lot of

Scott Lynch (28:09.804)
Hmm

Scott Lynch (28:15.974)
Such a great point.

Shirley Dalton (28:28.35)
international people struggle to understand is that we make what seems like a statement, but when we go up at the end, we're making it into a question. And so we might say, you really enjoyed that. And then they'll go yes or no. And so you can repeat, you know, the last three words that they've said, or just demonstrate that you heard and understood, and then they're happy to move on. So it doesn't have to feel like an interrogation.

Scott Lynch (28:43.049)
Hahaha

Shirley Dalton (28:57.878)
where you're asking the questions, well, what about this, what about that? And if we go back to that story where she might be playing with the grandkids and about not being able to bend over, you can make that really light and say, oh,

Are you one of those ladies that, you know, it's a bit clever here and you get the kids to pick up things and they go, yeah, I do. I always get the kids and go, yeah, that's tough, isn't it? When you can't get down on the ground and you know, you particularly can't get back up. And, you know, if we had a little bit of time now, I could actually show you some exercises that could help you strengthen that.

Scott Lynch (29:37.468)
Amazing. I think it's when you listen to someone that really commute like you, that is a master of words and you're looking at your intro of over 10,000 one-to-one coaching sessions, it's your craft, this is your intervention, it's just easy, it just flows. And I think for younger healthcare

Shirley Dalton (29:57.336)
Yes.

Scott Lynch (30:07.036)
our undergraduate degree at this level and a lot of these things are postgraduate, typically through non-healthcare courses where we're developing communication skills, just know that they can be improved and they can be learnt and they can be practised. And the thing that I would say is that it is a critical part of healthcare professional development and very much undervalued.

Shirley Dalton (30:21.115)
Oh absolutely.

Scott Lynch (30:34.052)
it will supercharge your ability to get across your message, which is that might be healthcare preventative strategies, it might be healthcare interventions that are going on, but a lot of healthcare professionals in every line of work will talk about compliance. Did that person do what you asked them to do? And typically they haven't because the communication has failed, whether that's.

and there's many reasons that could be. It may not just be verbal. That person may have a learning need, they may need this written in a different format, they may have hearing impairments, lots of different healthcare reasons as well that are just beyond personality traits, but you really need to understand these frameworks and that starts with yourself first. Do you find that it can be confronting for somebody to

go through a personality test and there's that level of vulnerability to, for the first time go, Oh, this, I'm starting to actually understand myself. And then somebody starts to, I guess, look backwards and, you know, put pieces of the puzzle together and connect the dots. Do you find people have a bit of a vulnerability through that moment?

Shirley Dalton (31:53.35)
It depends on people and how open they are to growth and development and feedback. So for the people who really want to learn to grow, then they're open and they go, Oh, wow, well, gee, I didn't know that. So when I do this, that really upsets people. Yeah. Okay, thanks. Great. And then there'll be other people who are quite defensive. And then they'll argue with you. And, you know, I have another thing that we call living above or below the line, and you've probably heard it.

Yeah. So if I'm living above the line, I take ownership, responsibility and hold myself accountable. If I live below the line, I get into bed with blame, excuses and denial. And so that in itself can be confronting for people, especially if you're in a position to, to point it out and give them the feedback that look, what I'm hearing here is a lot of defensiveness and a lot of blame. So it really depends on the person. So we

Scott Lynch (32:23.787)
Yep.

Scott Lynch (32:47.924)
Hehehe

Shirley Dalton (32:50.762)
We do what we call inoculate people. And so they don't feel ambushed. So when you inoculate somebody, you give them a little bit of what's coming and therefore they're prepared for it and they're usually accepting of it. And you can say things, you can ask them and say, look, I've got some feedback here. Not necessarily something that I think you might wanna hear. Is it okay if I tell you? Now they've just given you permission so you can give it to them.

And if they say no, say, okay, well, that's interesting. I'm curious as to how come you wouldn't be interested if I could give you some pointers that could help you with your career or your work, et cetera. So then you can open up that conversation as well.

Scott Lynch (33:20.18)
I love that.

Scott Lynch (33:34.416)
I love that. I've really been doing a lot of work on my ability to receive feedback. I think that that's always been a bit of a strength of mine of opening up to others. And I get a lot of feedback from, especially from our team. And I love that because it allows me to be on the front foot for continuous improvement in all areas, whether that's systems, processes, through to what we're doing.

I guess from an employee value proposition perspective, but I was terrible at giving feedback. So, and I think I've heard that that's a common component, but over the year, this year has been a big growth period for that, I feel more fulfilled in my professional life of being able to give feedback. And I've found that by doing that, I'm actually

receiving a lot more feedback and receiving feedback that is higher quality feedback as well because people are starting to mirror the way that I've provided that feedback and it's coming back in a way that I guess I'm you know liking to hear in a sort of a framework that's actionable and solutions focused as well.

Shirley Dalton (34:53.738)
Yeah, and I think with feedback too, it comes down to our framework and our mindset around what we think feedback is, because if you take the mindset that feedback is just data, it's just information, then we can choose what we do with that information. Whereas a lot of people use the word feedback and then they interpret that as criticism. Oh, I'm about, and exactly, yeah.

Scott Lynch (35:17.undefined)
Yeah, the fight or flight response to it straight away.

Shirley Dalton (35:22.443)
And then sometimes they don't even hear what you're saying.

Scott Lynch (35:27.168)
Dude, I know we're talking more about personality here, but they tend to, all of this overlaps quite a lot. Do you have a particular feedback framework that you like to run by and teach? Like a particular, one of the acronyms or something?

Shirley Dalton (35:40.118)
Yeah, so I'll tell you, I'll tell you the one that I don't like. And that's the sandwich. People go, give, give good feedback, give something positive. Then I'm going to be blunt here, then kick them up the bum and then give them something good. So the reason I don't like that is because if you come and give me something good, I'm going to stand there and go, ah, what's coming. Whereas if you've got something to say, then forget that top layer of the sandwich.

Scott Lynch (35:44.893)
Yes.

Okay.

Shirley Dalton (36:10.234)
I prefer to use inoculation and say, you know, I'd like to have a chat about this, is this is a good time for us to have a chat? And, you know, if you're open to it, I'd like to give you some pointers and then tell them how they can improve something rather than, oh, you're terrible at this, and say, one of the key phrases I use is the observation and to say, I've noticed this, and then to describe the situation and...

Scott Lynch (36:34.166)
Hmm.

Shirley Dalton (36:37.674)
Here's another really big distinction, Scott. That is that we want to talk about the behaviour rather than labelling it. So, it's describing the behaviour. So I noticed that on three occasions this week, your arrival time was 10 minutes after our start time. That's a hell of a lot different to saying, you late.

Scott Lynch (37:00.308)
Hehehehe

Shirley Dalton (37:01.11)
You're lazy, you're unreliable, you're hopeless. You can't get here on time or worse being sarcastic. Oh, good afternoon and how are you today? I mean, that just gets people's back up. Yeah.

Scott Lynch (37:10.144)
Mmm, dreadful. Yeah. We're not assuming and simply, you know, going by a nice framework, sort of keeps it objective and also gives that person the chance to then open up and say, typically most times in my experience, when something's going on, there's often something personally going on in that person's world as well, and there's an opportunity to then support.

whether that's some flexible working arrangements for a period of time, some professional development, somebody arriving late, that's nine times out of 10 gonna be something going on in their morning with children or they're caring now for their grandma and they haven't told you about that or somebody in their family is palliating and they're running around doing things before and after. There's always, most times there's something going on. And if you assume and...

do some of those things that you've just said of be sarcastic or, you know, close off the communication channel, you may damage that professional relationship ongoing. And you've now started a terrible workplace culture. And it takes me down the track of thinking about how important that is for the new psychosocial sort of conduct frameworks and all of these components. So I think...

When I was younger, I didn't really understand the value of all of this professional work. I came out of university as a physiotherapist, knowing all of my clinical components, great, and then all of a sudden it only takes a couple of things, whether that's some conflict or grievances in a professional setting with colleagues or with colleagues of another organisation that you're working with on a project.

Shirley Dalton (38:42.007)
Yeah

Scott Lynch (39:01.undefined)
Or it could be just with the client, the patient, the person you're supporting or the family. When something doesn't go the way you thought it would, all of a sudden it starts to give you the opportunity to realize that there are a lot of additional professional skills here to gain for the rest of my working years. But I've really been enjoying these sort of topics in the last few years of personality and communication and feedback and even things like my...

wife, as you know, has done some life coaching training and things in the past and really developing those skills around body language and mirroring and tone and all of these things that you it's not like you're using those skills to try and control somebody else and have them mirror your body language but you're trying to meet somebody's needs and know where they are in that moment.

I guess go on that conversation or communication journey for them. So, um, that's me being a coach and waffling on, but what do you think in, what do you think in your words is, you know, a really nice way to identify a great communicator? What, if somebody walks into the room or you're at a business event or in a professional setting, how quickly can you identify somebody that's an exceptional communicator and how do you do that?

Shirley Dalton (40:03.115)
Yeah.

Hahaha!

Shirley Dalton (40:26.322)
Oh, that's easy. That's the person who's listening. That's your best skill ever. And in fact, I'll give you a quick story. We went to a charity function one night and the next morning our friend who invited us came up to us and he said, what did you say to those people you sat with last night? And we said, why? And he said, because they said you were the most interesting people that they've ever met.

Scott Lynch (40:29.893)
Oh, that's lovely.

Scott Lynch (40:34.388)
How good's that?

Shirley Dalton (40:53.886)
and he said, and I know that's not true. He said, what did you talk about? And we just looked at each other and we said, them. Yeah, so.

Scott Lynch (40:56.858)
Hehehehe. Ahahahahahah. Hehehe.

Scott Lynch (41:05.445)
Oh, that's great. So, and you're going to pick that up quite quickly in a room by somebody's body language, their eye contact, all of, and they're going to be doing those things that you said before with the lady that we were sort of talking about, they're going to reiterate some of those components that person's saying, especially towards the back end of their conversation or.

Shirley Dalton (41:28.408)
Yeah.

Scott Lynch (41:28.964)
that sounds like that was really enjoyable when you did this thing on that holiday that you were talking about or what I'm hearing is, is that right? And all of those sorts of things.

Shirley Dalton (41:40.362)
Yes, and making it about the other person rather than an interrogation of questions and, you know, talking about personalities, the advisors and the drivers can really benefit by making a task of being social because they like to do tasks, then make that a task and to be present. So when you're present with somebody, your eyes aren't darting around the room to see who else

Scott Lynch (41:58.76)
Ooh, I like that.

Shirley Dalton (42:10.246)
engaged listening to whomever you're talking to. And that goes for in the clinical environment as well. And people, there's a great shortage of people feeling like they've been heard and listened to. And coming back to you developing these skills, as you've been in the industry for a long time, we come out with technical skills and you need those. But when you think about it, you're actually in the people business. So

You know, you really need people skills. You need to understand that not everybody is the same as you, and that's okay. But how do you deal with that? And how do you still get your tasks done? And you were talking about compliance with your clients. Well, what I've found over the years is again, understanding their personality types and having that relationship with them.

Scott Lynch (42:40.488)
100%.

Shirley Dalton (43:05.474)
you'll actually get more compliance with people who respect you and like you because they won't wanna let you down. And in fact, there's some great work done by Gretchen Rubin and she calls it the four tendencies. Yeah. Yes. And she talks about what motivates us to be accountable. And for some people, they're what she calls the obliger. So they will oblige you and be accountable because they don't wanna let you down.

Scott Lynch (43:20.623)
That's a great name.

Scott Lynch (43:30.889)
Hmm

Shirley Dalton (43:35.57)
Another person needs to follow rules. So you give them the rules, they'll follow them. Another person has to have all of their questions answered. So typically like an advisor, how does this work? What have I got to do? Tell me how many times a day they've got to have all the information. Whereas a driver just wants to stick pins in their eyes as you're telling them that info. So you've got to know that. And then the last one is the rebel and they're going to do it their way.

Scott Lynch (43:47.977)
Hmm

Scott Lynch (43:56.492)
Hehe

Shirley Dalton (44:04.866)
And just recently I gave one of my clients a book to read and to follow. And it's 28 days. And she got up to about day 13 and I was expecting it. And she said, oh, I'm putting a pause on it. I'm going to do it my way. Yep. And that's fine. And you know, what I found, I just want to put this quick story. And we used to have a carpet cleaning business years and years ago. And.

Scott Lynch (44:18.181)
Okay.

Scott Lynch (44:25.288)
Hehehehe.

Shirley Dalton (44:34.526)
At Christmas time, Ross would be really rushed trying to get all of the jobs done for people. And it was my job to ring them up and ask for the feedback. How did it go? And he assures me that he did the same technical job cleaning the carpet. But their scores were much lower. If he went in, said, quick, I've got to get the carpets done and went out, as opposed to when he was in, and a lot of them were the older people, sat down, had a cup of tea, how's things going?

Scott Lynch (44:56.163)
Hehehehehehe

Shirley Dalton (45:04.15)
did the work and then the scores would be higher. So, you know, that's, it is a really important point. You've got to develop that rapport and relationship with people.

Scott Lynch (45:05.574)
Hehehehe

Scott Lynch (45:14.46)
And I found on my journey in this scenario that initially I wanted to meet the needs of others by improving my communication and then saw that happening. And then saw that mirroring back to me with it meeting more of my needs and me having greater fulfillment both personally but also professionally. I would

find if reflecting back when I was more just task orientated as a clinician, it sort of it can never fulfill you, but you can certainly get some short term fulfillment. Maybe we did some great things, we improved an objective measure and outcome achieved a goal, but there's always going to be another objective measure or another goal. It started to

I guess, move from quantitative components and measuring of those tasks is really important and must be there, but it's almost the easier component to learn and complete. It's more the qualitative component and the communication that gives you that large fulfillment and starts to set, I guess, a bit of a purpose in motion of why you're doing things. So I think that as a key takeaway there for people that

are more task orientated to start to see, and I wrote down what you've said, sort of around see those social interactions and meeting people's communication needs and how you're performing communication-wise as a task that you can set yourself and tick off as well.

Shirley Dalton (46:56.746)
Yes, it's a bit like the specialist, isn't it, who's got no bedside manner. And I've got a friend who has diabetes and she got her foot infected just recently and ended up in hospital. And the specialist came in and said, Oh, you know, head down, you're probably going to lose your leg, your foot. And she's like, and she said, No, that's not acceptable, not acceptable at all.

Scott Lynch (47:00.928)
Hehehehe

Shirley Dalton (47:25.054)
and there was no compassion, it was just matter of fact, here's the task. And of course she hasn't lost the foot. We have a few other little tricks up our sleeve mentally that we've done and did some healing and stuff like that. But yeah, it's really important to understand yourself, to understand others. And then a really key thing Scott is the intention. You were talking before it's...

We're not doing it to manipulate and to control other people. It's the intention, it's how I come from, is why am I practising my skills? Why am I listening to this person? Why am I having a cup of tea with them? It's because I care about them and I want to give them the best experience and then also give them the best treatment that I can.

Scott Lynch (47:59.77)
Hmm.

Scott Lynch (48:11.8)
I love that. That's so good. There's so much information, one in this podcast, but two in all of these areas of personality, communication, feedback, professional skills. What's one thing that people can go away with? Is there something that they can jump on your website and do a bit of a screen or start the process of identifying like who they are or what can you offer people as a takeaway today?

Shirley Dalton (48:39.466)
Yes, look, I'd love to invite them to have a one hour breakthrough session with me, and we can look at their personality type and we can look at things particularly for them that can help them to improve in the areas that they want. And so if they'd like to book that in, it's complimentary, they can go to Shirley Dalton.com forward slash aha, AHA, because that's our intention is that at the end of that they've got aha.

Scott Lynch (49:04.714)
Lovely.

Scott Lynch (49:10.26)
And I'm assuming you do services face to face, but obviously people around the country and the sector may listen. So let's say they do that complimentary session and they have that interest to learn more. Is there some online components that people can access, whether that's on demand or like workshops that you do online with people?

Shirley Dalton (49:34.366)
Yes, yes, this year we're in January, we're starting the Leadership Fundamentals, which is a 10-week online experience. And that's on a Tuesday at this stage from 9.30 to 11. And we used to do Leading Yourself and Leading Others as a four-day face-to-face workshop, small group. But it's getting difficult for people to travel and to the accommodation, and we would hold it one day a week.

Scott Lynch (49:53.864)
Mmm.

Shirley Dalton (50:00.746)
So what we've done now is we've taken the best out of that and put it into an online experience. And for those people who are interested in developing their processes and systems, then we also have a course that we call the Loyal Lieutenant, which is, just getting my notes out of the way here, which is based on the book, The Loyal Lieutenant, and people can do that online with us as well.

Scott Lynch (50:22.389)
Yep.

Shirley Dalton (50:27.698)
And the thing, you know, you talk about yourself being a clinician. I'm a practitioner. I love to work with people. So, so the work is working with me, even though it might be group and online. I'm still leading it and facilitating it because I just love people. And I love to do that.

Scott Lynch (50:34.56)
Hehehe

Scott Lynch (50:45.176)
This has been a great conversation. I think there's a lot of takeaways for people and one of the main ones is after a podcast like this where there's lots of information, you should sit down for a couple of minutes and just reflect on it. Is there anything that you take away from listening just now that you might put in action? That may be doubling down on some things that you're already doing and you've realized that you're doing well or it could be identifying some areas that...

you might want to seek some further education on. And one of those could be jumping on Shirley's website and we'll put that in the show notes and on the website that you'll be able to access as well. Thanks so much for your time today, Shirley.

Shirley Dalton (51:27.286)
Yeah, thanks Scott, it was fabulous.

Scott Lynch (51:29.761)
Real pleasure. Thanks everyone. We'll see you in the next episode. Goodbye.